October 4, 2017 Show with Bryan Wolfmueller on “Has American Christianity Failed?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio

platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host.

Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth listening via live -streaming.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Wednesday

on this fourth day of October 2017 and it's my delight to

have for the very first time an iron sharpens iron radio.

Someone who came highly recommended to me by both Chris Rosebrough of

Pirate Christian Radio and also another fellow Lutheran

pastor Matt Richard.

Who is the pastor of Zion Lutheran Church in Gwinnett?

South Dakota, I believe it is but I am so delighted to have on the program

Pastor Brian Wolf Mueller and he is going to be discussing a brand new book that he has written

has American Christianity failed published by Concordia Publishing House.

Pastor Brian Wolf Mueller is not only the pastor of Hope Lutheran Church in Aurora, Colorado and a

co -host of the world's most Famous Lutheran theological game show.

I'm wondering if it's the only Lutheran theological game show Tabletalk radio, but it's my honor and

privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron radio pastor Brian Wolf Mueller.

Thank you, Chris.

Great to be here.

Great.

Was I correct on where?

Where our friend pastor Matt Richard is the pastor?

So I was right about South Dakota.

I just slipped my mind that the state that he was in.

Well, I as I normally do with first -time guests I'd like to get something

of your hear about something in regard to your background.

Everybody has a different story, even though there's one gospel and one Lord Jesus Christ.

Who saved us we who are born again?

We who are Christians?

The Lord providentially uses many different circumstances to bring that about.

Some folks are raised in Christian homes and they can't even remember when they weren't a Christian.

They can't even remember not loving Jesus and singing praise to him and praying to him and you have others

Like me who have more of a stark contrast in our testimonies from darkness to light things

that we can vividly remember because perhaps We had decades of living in

rebellion and so on Before we came to Christ, but tell us something about the religion of your youth

and when you came to realize that you Did need a Savior named Jesus

Christ and and also about how you Eventually realized that you had been

receiving a call from God into the ministry.

Sure.

Well, I was um, I was raised in in the in the liberal Lutheran Church, although fairly

faithful Congregations of the kind of when you look and compare it, but early on in high

school.

I.

I.

There's a couple of kind of moments where I made the explicit decision.

I did not to not to not just to stop believing in God, but probably more rather

to Things like this to God if you're gonna if this is how you're gonna

treat me then I've had enough, you know I'm gonna do my own thing.

And I really chased after my own my own desires my own whims what I understood to be good until

Until probably halfway through high school and I ran into at our Church had a youth

group and the youth pastor there, even though it was a liberal Lutheran Church was an

evangelical Born again and really charismatic and I

had a very helpful conversation with him at that point where The Lord

Granted me the gift of repentance again as he loves to do and and called me into the church and and at that

point started to develop a deep love for the scriptures and I Suppose I

grew into that in in the American Christianity even American evangelicalism.

We were involved in them in a Southern Baptist Church a non -denominational church.

We were going to Calvary Chapel On into college I was involved with campus crusade inner varsity

And the Navigators and involved in a number of non -denominational churches and was studying the scriptures

and and and chasing after the Lord's words there, but

Discontent with the teaching of kind of your typical Bible Church began to come along and

And it led it led me and then I started dating and then was engaged and at last married to my wife

Carrie Her as well.

We went on a two -year theological odyssey Chasing down all the different churches

trying to figure out where we could find, you know What st. Paul calls and so we were

comparing and compare and listening to visiting all the different churches talking to the pastors looking at their statements of faith

going to different adult classes until we finally Ended up at that really at the same time

on the conclusion that the Lutheran Church Taught the gospel in its

simplifiers without mixing in man's doctrine and at

the same time also I Conceived a desire to go and be a pastor and serve in the church I was

studying mechanical engineering at the time and I've always would wait.

You know I would I Made something of an oath in my youth that I would read the Bible before I went to sleep every day.

And so I was up late late working on some and I was looking over there at my

Bible Wanting to open and study the Bible Instead of study this physics stuff and I realized hey Some

people have studying the Bible for their for their school and some people have studying the Bible for their job

I'm just doing the wrong thing.

So I went in the next day switched to literature and really from that point on kind of headed towards seminary and

towards the well.

Now tell us something about specifically Hope Lutheran Church of Aurora, Colorado.

The beautiful little congregation of the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod in Aurora, Colorado.

Which is the eastern suburb of Denver right it just right up there next to Denver.

It's a you know for the Lutheran.

It's a medium -sized congregation a small on the big scheme of things.

But a full of people who love the Lord's Word and love to study the Bible.

I'd love to hear hear it preached in its clear in its clarity at your law and gospel.

Such a beautiful congregation.

I've been for 12 years.

For the past three and a half years I've been served alongside with Pastor Brian Flamming.

We work together and it's a great place to be.

Your listeners are always welcome if they.

If they come to Aurora, Colorado they are required to stop in and visit and.

I understand that you as you just said that you are your congregation is in the Lutheran

Church, Missouri.

Synod.

If you could tell us something about that Synod and contrast it with the

more dominant Denomination in America that many of us would call

apostates.

And that would be the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.

Yes, that's so that's the church of my birth and the church of my family.

But this is the problem.

They're not evangelical and I think they like being in America and I don't.

So the ELCA is kind of a misnomer but you know this there's this divide that arose in the church in the mid

19th century the liberal and fundamentalist controversy and these mainline denominations and

most of them Just went went liberal and so the ELCA the biggest Lutheran Church body.

Did that they're just a liberal church and now they're tripping over themselves to find new biblical doctrines

to deny.

Of course the capitulations about about human sexuality and marriage.

That's kind of old.

They have all the doctrines that the stories of the scriptures are myths and allegories, you know to teach but

they're not historical truth.

So that's been happening in the ELCA for a long time.

And it's one of the kind of I mean I don't know what to do about it Chris if you have ideas.

But it's um, you know people here Lutheran and they think oh someone that doesn't believe the Bible.

So whenever anyone asks, what's the Missouri Synod?

I said, we're the Lutherans that believe the Bible.

Now.

Your friend Chris Roseboro is in a different Synod, but apparently it has

Fellowship with the Missouri Synod to the American Association of Lutheran Churches.

Yes, that's right.

That's right.

There are a bunch of there are a bunch of Lutheran churches.

I mean, there's dozens of different Lutheran denominations but you have that kind of divide the

liberal divide and the conservative divide and most of the look

including Chris Roseboro and.

Understand that the Wisconsin Synod may be even might be even further to the right of the Missouri Synod.

But that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing.

I don't know.

What do you.

What's your views on the Wisconsin Synod?

Oh, they're great.

I think we'll get together again.

We used to have fellowship with one another and I think we will again.

They do have some different, you know.

We were divided over a couple of questions about the ministry.

If there is a level of fellowship in prayer together and some things like this but

the I think those are kind of smaller theological points and and and really when you look at a

big picture, which is to to claim the simplicity of Christ as as the

Lutherans, you know have been doing for the last 500 years and We're we are really partners with

these guys in that.

Well, I want to remind my listeners that I Chris Arnzen a thoroughgoing five -point Calvinist and

not considering converting to Lutheranism I've been having so many Lutherans on lately that I think some of my

listeners might be worried that I'm going to.

But I think that there should be more healthy dialogue and friendship and fellowship between

those who are theologically reformed and those of you who are Lutheran and.

It's it's interesting.

There are I have I have a couple of friendships with Lutherans.

That it's interesting when the when the theological issues came up of Calvinism they got quite heated and.

Not that I got a mean spirit on my end, but there were some there were some pretty heavy.

What's the what's the term I'm looking for?

Aggressively.

Opposing views.

Let me put it that way.

Well, here's the great thing about that.

You guys who are Calvinist is that you still care about doctrine, you know.

I mean look around the Lord has spoken in the word and it's as soon as the Lord speaks

it means we have to have a love for theology and a love for words in specific words and.

And when we look around the church in general I mean you have Catholics on the one side the Orthodox hanging out over there and you have the kind of

general mass of American Christian over there and and they whenever you start talking about theology and having a

specifically articulated doctrine.

They get mad at you so so when you want to love theology just as a general sort of thing I think the

Lutherans and the Catholics are like the last two left that are even interested in that.

So I think you're right.

We got to keep.

I think you're encouraging each other in that.

I think you meant the Lutherans and the Calvinists you said Catholics.

No, you're right, I'm sorry.

The Calvinist the Lutheran I mean the this the reformed tradition that we're talking about.

We need to encourage each other because sometimes we feel like strangers when we say hey, we love the doctrine.

We love theology and the rest of the Christians look at us like we're nuts and so it's good that we can encourage each

other that way.

Amen and.

Before we go into the topic at hand.

You've got to tell us about table talk radio.

I couldn't help but Chuckle about the world's most famous Lutheran theological

game show.

Tell me about that.

There were there were some guys down in Australia at the seminary there who started doing their own Lutheran theological game

show.

So we were the world's second best.

But then they quit so now we're the best again since nobody else is doing it.

We've Evan Gageline is pastor in Oregon and he and I have been partners in this in this radio show for

probably Probably six or seven years now and and we.

It's a weekly podcast and we try that we play games.

For example, we play a game called Law and or gospel where we read a Bible passage and we say is

it a passage to play?

Name that theologian and we'll read a quote from a from a theologian Ancient or modern and we'll try to

see if we can guess who it is or what tradition it comes from.

Oh cool.

We played ten commandments in the news where we listen to a news story and we say hey what ten commandments are at play there?

And and a number of other games like this.

So the rules are endeavor to teach discernment and in the playing of the game We just you know, mostly have fun with it give each other

fake points and really have a great time with that.

And do people win anything?

No table talk radio points are we say like the Baptist doctrine of the Lord's Supper.

By.

The way, I do have to tell you though we we got to be careful about

stereotypes because Richard Barcellos who is a well -known Reformed Baptist?

He wrote a book not long ago on Baptism and He

is taking what he believes is a more Confessional

Approach to baptism and when I say confessional I'm speaking of the 1689 London Baptist Confession, which is

nearly identical to the Westminster Confession and So

he believes that there that the baptism is a means of grace and that there is

something more significant Going on in regard

to baptism then solely and strictly a a symbolic

meal or a memorial.

So and apparently there is some differences of opinion even on Zwingli the usually that

the memorial view is Referred to as winglet as Zwinglian, but I've heard from

some scholars that they believe that Zwingli Was not strictly a memorialist either, but

that's for another time.

It's just last week.

I was in Marburg Castle where Luther and Zwingli debated at the at the Marburg Colloquy

1518 and it's and that colloquy had I think there was 18 points of doctrine that the

Lutherans and the Zwinglians Wrote down together and it was the and even the last article about the Lord's

Supper.

They could agree on until the question is it the body and the blood so they Zwingli even agreed that

it that the Lord's Supper was a means of grace conferred God's blessing and so forth.

So I'm very interested I'm gonna look up that name.

That's probably causing a big fuss amongst the kind of more reformed Baptist groups.

I would imagine actually no not yet I haven't heard of anything that

that would Reflect what you just mentioned, by the way, if you want to look up that book

you could go to rbap .net and that stands for reformed Baptist

academic press rbap .net and you can look for

Richard Barcellos, B -A -R -C -E -L -L -O -S is the

author of the book and Right now I can't seem to find the title of it but what perhaps

later on I'll I'll chime in with that because that's not our topic of discussion today and

But you you might be surprised some of the things that Many reformed Baptists believe that

are not Necessarily typical amongst your your mainstream Baptists and of course

as you may already know being a Calvinist and Baptist Although that used to be the majority in this day and age

We who are reformed Baptists are a tiny minority globally a growing minority.

But we I'm I'm proud of you guys because you're right.

You know, John Smith was a Calvinist and the origins of the Baptist Church were in the Calvinist tradition, but everything is so

Revivalized that's one of the marks of American Christianity.

Is that especially in the second Great Awakening awakening and Charles Finney?

It's so much of our American Christianity was defined that we don't even recognize it.

We don't you know Finney's Fingerprints are all over everything and we don't even we're not even able to kind of

recognize that.

That's a strange thing in the history.

Of the church, by the way, I just found it.

It's the Lord's Supper as a means of grace more than a memory.

By Richard Barcellos.

And that's at our BAP net.

And.

So we are going to be discussing as I already mentioned has American Christianity failed if you could

define what you mean by American Christianity because that there is

quite a spectrum and some might even Have a knee -jerk reaction to a title like that

because they know of the theological climate in Europe I'm where Christianity is in many places is

is almost non -existent.

So you one might wonder why is there there being an insinuation that

American Christianity may be Inferior to what is going around on around the world, but if you could please

define American Christianity, yeah.

By the way, I forgot to mention something very important about that my friend I don't know if you know, dr. James are white of Alpha and Omega

ministries.

He's one of my closest friends Theologian he just preached in Martin Luther's

pulpit last week At the Wittenberg the castle church in Wittenberg.

Yeah, I heard about that.

That's great.

I think I was there.

I was there in June and then I was there last week.

So I just I've missed him to preach in that pulpit yet

either.

So I'm a little bit.

But anyway, I'm sorry I interrupted you.

Okay, so let's take I I'll give a definition of American Christianity.

And this is just my own thinking on this as a way to kind of grab a hold of what I'm talking about.

I identify four theological streams, you know kind of a fountain like that at the Garden of Eden.

There was a there was a fountain and four rivers flowed out of it.

But there's four theological streams that define American Christianity and they're often unnoticed because

they're so ubiquitous.

I mean, they're absolutely everywhere and I call I identify those four streams

as revivalism pietism mysticism and enthusiasm.

So again revivalism pietism mysticism and enthusiasm and and I'll try to briefly just define each one

of them that Revivalism says that my Christianity begins with me.

It emphasizes the decision.

My decision for Jesus it talks about the free will of the unbeliever to make a choice.

And again, this comes, you know, we identify it theologically with Arminianism against Calvinism the free

will theologians.

But probably it comes from the revival where Charles Finney says that you know, the Apostles had

baptism, but we have new measures we have the anxious bench, which is the precursor to the To the

altar call and the sinners per Christian according to the back of my Gideon Bible.

I know I'm a Christian because I made the decision for Christ.

That's revivalism and it's unique in the history of Christianity.

That's number one I can go to.

The next one is pietism.

You tell me if you want to talk more kind of quickly define.

Yeah, it's quickly define each one and then we could revisit the each of each of them.

Yeah, sure.

So pietism would be the idea if revivalism gets me in by my choice then pietism keeps me

in by my goodness.

So the pietist would emphasize moral growth in morality over

Theological Consideration.

The pietism is a movement that started in the 19th century with or maybe even earlier in the Lutheran

Church and it it put the emphasis on a personal faith and a growth in good works

so it diminishes the role of the sacraments and the role of the pastor and so forth in the

Christian life and Really puts the emphasis on getting better all the time.

I'm doing better and better every day.

I know that I'm a Christian because I'm I'm I'm doing more good works or I think that I'm not because I'm doing less.

Mysticism looks for comfort in the internal experience of God's presence.

The mystic Sees Christianity in terms of being near

or far from God and so it's really the mystical worship of

Clearly a mysticism that that where we go to have an experience of the divine

presence that I feel God on the inside or that I'm listening to God On the inside and

all of these are outgrowths of what Luther identified as an enthusiasm.

That's a capital E enthusiasm.

It's a theological technical term, which basically means that I'm looking to hear from God Inside

rather than outside.

So God's Word is not in my ears.

God's Word is in my heart.

That's sometimes just to have the quiet time where we go to listen for God and try to get insight you know the individual insight

from from the Holy Spirit or all of the charismatic movements where you have a prophetic speaking that's all

enthusiasm a departure from the from the Sufficiency of the external word and looking for

more words from God.

So those four things revivalism pietism mysticism and enthusiasm I think are definitional of

the.

Religious flavor.

Or smell of American Christianity.

Now there must be some kind of a big mistake because I was under the Understanding that I was going to be interviewing a Lutheran today.

It sounds to me like you're a Calvinist.

Well, you know what we're gonna be on the same page when it comes to what we disagree with.

I'm pretty sure about that.

Yes, well even Seemingly and I also had these similarities in my discussions with Chris

Roseboro and Matt Richard.

Because of the fact that Luther and Calvin did agree on the bondage of the will

it seems that many of The more conservative Lutherans have retained that

whereas there are others that seem to Still be in the rut that

Melanchthon took them into centuries ago after Luther's death.

It would seem that the Melanchthon if correct me if I'm wrong Steered the ship

back toward Rome.

Not not completely but after Luther's death, he seemed to want to offer an olive branch in some way

by muddle muddying the waters about the bondage of the will and making The human will

a lot more capable of things that not only Luther denied But that those scriptures

denied.

Am I right on that?

Yes, yeah, it's a bit of a it's a bit of a murky water to Figure out what Melanchthon was up to

because I think he was kind of he was purposely unclear on a couple of things.

So he was extending the olive branch to Rome with the freedom of the will.

He was extending the olive branch to the Zwinglians or the Calvinist on the Lord's Supper.

He was trying to figure out if he could change the language to be more expansive and and I talk about this in the book this history

and I think it's pretty important because.

So for Luther what converts an unbeliever to a believer and the answer for Luther and I'm

convinced.

This is the answer the scripture.

The answer is the Holy Spirit working through the word.

Amen, the Holy Spirit working through the word converts the unbeliever and it in fact converts the

will.

So the will is not the tool of conversion, but rather the object of conversion.

It's our will that is converted when the Holy Spirit does his work.

Yes, now Melanchthon comes along and he adds in a place for the will so the three parts of

conversion are then the spirit and the word and the Will and that is where he can see that I think

Modern Christianity goes along with Melanchthon with the addition of the will but then it removes the

word.

So now a conversion is a is an act of the spirit and the will and the word is not even doesn't even need

to Be a part of it.

People saying hey if you feel the Holy Spirit tugging in your heart raise your hand say this prayer

walk the aisle.

I always want to say it during the altar call.

Well, what if I know that I'm a sinner and that I I believe that Jesus died for me.

And I never believed it until right now, but I don't just don't feel anything moving in my heart.

Can I come down there and be a Christian?

But these guys are so convinced that it's the Holy Spirit who works inside apart from the word that.

That that that conversion now is the will and the spirit and and so we have a totally different view of how we

become Christians In American Christianity than the Bible does.

Yes, it is quite disturbing and it

seems that There may be a connection even though you have them distinguished as two

different elements Revivalism and enthusiasm.

Aren't they somehow connected?

Enthusiasm in fact.

Revivalism pietism and mysticism are all just different aspects of enthusiasm.

Okay, we have encompasses them all and in fact, I think in one of the most brilliant Theological statements

outside of the scripture a Martin Luther in the small called articles.

It was a it was a these guys these princes were gathering together in small

called and they formed a small called League.

And they said we want to have some theology.

So Luther wrote to the small called articles for him and in there That every heresy

is Enthusiasm from the Pope to Muhammad to Adam and Eve in the garden.

Every error was enthusiasm a departure from the external to hear the internal

word.

Through my reason or through my experiences or through my heart rather than through my ears.

Amen, would you say that a part of this American Christianity

a part of this heresy that?

Removes the word from the equation.

It's really what is being offered to men women and children

by evangelists and preachers and pastors and even just average Christians

when they When they witness to their friends and family and loved ones.

Is there merely saying?

Add Jesus Christ to your life and All these things that are that are

bothering you in life will be more easy to cope

with and of course, then you might have the More extreme version like the Word of Faith Pentecostals who will

give false Hope that these things will be eliminated from people's lives if they have a strong enough faith,

but it really Very rarely has anything to do with repentance from sin.

The the threat of hell seems to be absent when you hear pastors

on television and radio.

There seems to be no concept of the death of Christ being

a Perpetuatory sacrifice that he actually took upon himself the wrath of the Father on Calvary.

These things are Very often absent where this is merely

being offered the gospel a so -called gospel is being offered that is really just

medicine to make Life easier for you.

Am I off base here?

No.

No, you're 100 % right and that is so.

Antithetical doctrine and to Jesus himself who says In this world,

you will have trouble.

You know take up your cross and follow me not take up your lazy boy and follow me.

So it is one of the fundamental errors Of American Christianity that it's that the idea

that being a Christian makes your life better.

I mean it's.

It's crazy and it sets people up for extreme disappointment, you know I heard these kind of evangelism talks and that

and that's how it was like a sales pitch for Jesus and it was like this Try Jesus and it'll make your life better.

There's like a 30 -day guarantee.

You know 30 -day money -back guarantee commit your life to Jesus.

And if you don't see great improvement in your life in 30 days, then you can give them up and try whatever other false God.

That is insane, it's absolutely insane because um, I mean If

if Christianity is anything it is it is that we say well God is God.

So he will be gone on his own terms.

And if we start making promises for God that he hasn't made.

Then then what are we except for I mean false prophets in the fullest sense of the term?

We are damning ourselves and the people who hear us when we start to promise that God never promised a good life.

He promised eternal life.

God never promised ease.

He promised that he would be with us in the midst of trouble.

God never promised that we were gonna be rich and happy.

He promised that we're gonna be resurrected on the last day to live before forever.

And chances are pretty good that if we're faithful to Christ that things are gonna get worse.

I mean when we're baptized the pastor says I mark you with the sign of the cross on The forehead and upon the heart to

mark you as one redeemed by Christ the crucified and when you're marked like that.

It's a target for the devil and he knows just precisely where to aim all of his fiery darts.

I think this is to be to be a friend of Christ is to be an enemy of the world and the flesh and the devil.

And that's probably going to make life harder.

But in the end it doesn't matter it's the Lord who's pleased with us because of the death of Jesus.

So these so so all of this American Christianity.

It tries to kind of because it sees the will as free

but open to manipulation.

That's the inheritance of revivalism that my will is free to choose Christ, but it's also open to manipulation.

It makes the preacher into a salesman trying to move you to make some sort of choice or

decision.

And this is the last thing Jesus needs.

He doesn't need salesmen.

He needs Apostles.

He does he doesn't need you know people that try to off.

He needs preachers who will stand up and preach the we're going to our first break right now.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for pastor Brian Wolfe Mueller Regarding his book has

American Christianity failed.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter over

which you are asking so.

Please at least first name city and state and country of residence.

Don't go away.

God willing. We will be right back after these messages with pastor Brian Wolfe Mueller.

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The host of a visit to the pastor's study Bill Shishko who is also regional home missionary

for Reformation Metro, New York.

And also a professor at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Taylor's, South Carolina.

He's going to be the iron sharpens iron radio pastor's luncheon keynote speaker.

Coming up very shortly October 26, which is a Thursday from 11 a .m. To 2 p .m. At

the Carlisle fire -and -rescue Banquet Hall and Nearly every

major Christian publisher in the United States and the United Kingdom donates a hundred books

each for all the men that attend this pastors conference this pastor's

luncheon and That's a hundred of one title so that every man

attending can get that title and that's of multiple Publishers in other words.

So you're going to be leaving with probably a couple of dozen books a heavy sack of free brand -new books.

In addition to being fed for free and in addition to being fed spiritually by pastor Bill Shishko for free.

You're also getting those free books.

There's no charge for anything.

This was a tradition that began with my late wife in the 1990s that I continued

after she went home to be with the Lord for eternity and She made it very clear that she never

wanted anybody selling anything at these luncheons never to be an alternative an ulterior I

should say motive.

And this is just a way of my saying thanks to all of you who are in ministry

for what you do for the kingdom of God and So, please mark your calendar down for

Thursday, October 26 11 a .m To 2 p .m.

For the iron sharpens iron radio pastors luncheon if you would like to register Please send me an email as soon as you can

at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris ar n z e n gmail .com and put

Pastors luncheon in the subject line and that's also the email address that you can send a question.

For our guest today Brian Wolf Mueller regarding his book has American Christianity failed

published by Concordia Publishing House and The email address again is Chris Arnzen at gmail

.com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA

Pastor Wolf Mueller.

We have a question from Joe all the way in Slovenia and Joe says please

ask pastor Wolf Mueller to give us his assessment of how we got here with a failing

American Christianity, what is the timeline of people and events that gave us an

aberrant American Christianity that teaches the centrality of the Individual my will

my experience my decision my heart my work my dedication.

Also, what does he see as the solution to get us out of this mess and back to a

robust Reformation faith?

That's Joe from Slovenia.

That's a great question.

Hey, but before I get at that question Chris, I just published I'm working on publishing some loot.

It is freedom of the Christian and I'd love to send you a hundred copies to hand out to these pastors at the luncheon.

Oh, yeah, I would love that.

Please do that.

I'll give you my address after the show.

Yeah, that's perfect.

I now if we if we track along with Luther the origins of all these things is the Garden of Eden.

Now that might not be helpful At first glance, but I think it is that to

recognize that error, you know.

It's not I mean the devil he's the master of a thousand arts.

But at some point he just is doing the same thing over and over so he's always doing this.

He's always trying to bend us back in on ourselves and to twist us away from the Lord's Word and he has

allies In it.

I think and I don't know if at least I gave you some books.

I think one One of the dangerous sources

is is John Calvin who makes a distinction between the internal call and the external call you know,

he says there's two species of calling the one is external and the one is internal but external is the preaching of the gospel that goes forth to all people

the internals the work of the Holy Spirit that happens only in the elect and that and that distinction

between the internal and the external is a way a Trust in the

external word and I don't think it did for Calvin I don't like to

manifest itself, but it has manifested itself.

So so that people now are you know, they want to know am I a Christian and And and

and so where do they look for security so

the only place I have to look is either in my Experiences or in

my in my works.

I can be confident because I made a decision.

I could be confident because I see myself growing.

So we're looking for assurance.

So I think that that I I

mean I have difficulty not seeing that the seed planted by Calvin and it grew it

was it expanded a Thousand fold in the second great awakened

awakening.

Which with Charles Finney and the new measures that happened there which and that's really what we define as Methodism.

That there's a method to bring people to to Christianity that there's a method that the Christian follows to grow and

good works.

And that and that that has has defined all these different things in American Christianity.

I think the way back is to Is

to we all say that the scriptures are inspired Inerrant

and infallible that the scriptures are clear for all that we need to know about doctrine in life.

We even want to say as Reformation Christians that the scriptures are sufficient that we don't need another word from any

from God.

God has given us all that we need in the scriptures.

But this attribute of the efficacy of the word that the Holy Spirit actually does work.

In the words to give us the forgiveness of sins is the way that we can have this

confidence now that the Lord loves me.

I mean, how do I know that the Lord loves me?

I know that the Lord loves me because he's the one who said I baptize you in my name.

He's the one that said this is my body and blood.

He's the one that said I forgive you all your sins.

He's the one that said I I would I was dead on the cross for you.

I'm raised from the dead from you.

I'm sitting at the right hand of the Father Interceding for you.

I'll come back for you it and speak a word and you'll be raised from the dead to have this to have the confidence that When the

Lord gives us promises that those words are true.

This is what it means to be a Christian and this is where the Holy Spirit is pushing all of us.

That we have this absolute and unwavering confidence faith in his promises of forgiveness

of sins and life everlasting.

Well a couple of things.

I'm sure that you realize that Charles Finney was not a Calvinist of any kind.

He was really Pelagian.

He He did not.

Not only did he not believe that any kind of Prevenient grace was

required as the Roman Catholics and the Wesleyans believe he didn't believe that there was any work

of the Spirit needed to regenerate a heart.

He was really a Monarchist in the bad sense.

You have Calvinists on the one end that are monarchists in a good sense because we believe that God

deserves 100 of the praise honor and glory for our salvation.

Whereas Finney was a monarchist in believing that God didn't even need to Interrupt anything

that was going on in the will of a man that he really In essence was saving himself, and he

didn't even believe in the substitutionary atonement of Christ or anything like that, but going back.

Yeah, you're right a hundred percent right about that.

And it might be a little bit cheap to draw a connection between the two I mean I would if you wanted

to argue against it I mean I might concede the point, but but this I mean it really is Finney when we start to

smell Finney And and his kind of.

You're right.

It's uh.

It's it's Pelagian, and it's and it's it's pagan I mean it lacks the blood of Christ.

It's it's really demonic when we start to see how his Fingerprints are on so much of our American

Christianity that I thought I think we start to be able to and not just American Christianity it's all over the world.

Then we start to Be able to read the scriptures in them in a fuller way to see

it more clearly.

Now going back to.

Just to give a counterpoint about.

The.

The main problem is that people are not people are doubting and not trusting the

efficacy of the scriptures.

Well the Calvinist that I know and love and read and so on and benefit from their preaching would

believe that with certainty that these scriptures are efficacious and powerful because they actually

accomplish exactly what they were designed to do.

They they draw the elect out from Darkness and bring them into eternal

life just as the death of Christ Actually accomplishes what Christ

intended it saves everyone for whom he died, but going back to a flip side of the coin

How do you respond to the one that might say well if you're charging.

The the.

Calvinist looking at his His life as some kind of a litmus test of whether or not

he has the Holy Spirit whether he is actually regenerate.

You know seeing if he is actually loving Christ and mourning over his sin and although not

ever achieving sinlessness Repenting of that sin and so on the flip side of the

coin if you want to look at a problem in American Christianity Wouldn't you say that a very?

Enormous element of the problem of American Christianity is that you have people

that think That some kind of a one -time experience in their life It might

be baptism or it might be an altar call has settled the issue and they have nothing to fear.

They live carefree lives.

Thinking that they're on their way to heaven when they there's no evidence of life in them they are spiritually dead

just as they were before they were baptized or before they they went forward for an altar call or before they

Repeated some kind of a prayer to invite Jesus into their heart or something.

Isn't nominalism and dead Christianity Christianity in name only a very

serious and dangerous element of this false American Christianity.

Yes, a hundred percent.

Yes, and in some ways.

At this who at the anniversary of the Reformation?

This is a great opportunity for us to talk about that because when people look back at like the indulgence controversy

500 years ago when Luther nailed the 95 theses to the door in Woodford.

And people say that everyone back then would

find God's grace.

They were so that's not true.

In fact when Luther writes the 95 theses He's writing the 95 theses because nobody's worried about

God's wrath.

I mean they think that by buying a little indulgence paper.

They can rescue themselves from from purgatory right?

I mean certainly from hell that it was easy to be a Christian.

That that nobody was afraid of God that by doing this thing.

You could make yourself safe and so Luther is railing against that.

He said the first thesis is when our Lord and Master Jesus Christ says repent.

He'd willed that the whole life of the Christian would be a life of repentance.

This is not a one -time thing or like a you know.

You put the coin in the machine or you buy the piece of paper or you make the decision or you you know?

You go you get married in the church or whatever it is these things that people trust it.

I must be safe from the fires of hell because I did this little one thing.

That's no different.

That's no different than an indulgence.

It's no different than this kind of lazy Medieval piety that has no

fear of God and can't hear the thundering of God's wrath preached in the law.

They're there.

It's it's a proud hard -honed creating because as soon as God isn't

Full of wrath over your sin even for the Christian to have the fear of God as the defining thing in their life.

If you don't if you don't have that then you you're you're you stand there breaking the first commandment.

When Luther taught the kids the first commandment, you know in the small catechism.

What is the first commandment?

What does this mean we should fear love and trust in God above all things.

So that the first commandment requires us to fear God we fear God's wrath.

He shows us his son Jesus and shows us how the wrath of God was poured out so

that his wrath is for his son.

And not for us and then when we finally fear nothing, but God he says look, I'm don't be afraid.

But if we don't start with that fear of God.

Then and we are really in trouble and an American Christianity.

This is one of the marks of American Christianity that runs all the way through it.

Catholic liberal even evangelical.

There's no fear of God.

Everyone assumes that God is just a nice guy like, you know.

The God is in a sweater vest and and he just you know.

You know God is like the grant is like our grandma who always wishes we would call and it's sitting at home waiting for us to call.

Some.

Sort of needy God up in heaven who.

Just it's just dying for us to make a decision for him and dedicate our life to him.

And call him our friend and then he'll really be proud of us.

I mean, this is an absurd idol and it's not God at all.

Yeah that kind of a God not only diminishes his

sovereignty and his power and his self -sufficiency

but it also.

Unconsciously, um, I'm sure that most of our Arminian friends are unconsciously doing this.

Other than the open theists who claim that they are consistent Arminians, but they are diminishing

God's omniscience when they have a picture of a God wringing his hands in heaven hoping Pacing

back and forth that that people are going to come to him.

Because he so desires Everyone without exception to come to him that he is anxious about

this.

This is really a.

This is really a grotesque.

Distortion of who God really is.

That's right.

But we're always you know, here's Calvin.

Oh, man.

I'm gonna quote Calvin now.

But Calvin said Yes, amen.

So we're always we're always trying to build God in our own image of our own fallen image and it's just absurd this kind of

Idolatry is is is precisely what the scriptures are standing against.

I mean when God talks, that's what the Bible is God talking and he's gonna say hey, look, I'm gonna decide I'm gonna

decide who I am for you and I'm gonna decide who you are by the way.

And I'm also going to create the whole world and and and and to be a Christian.

Again, I think we've mentioned this before but this is the program of the Reformation.

To be a Christian is to say, okay.

We're gonna let God Decide for himself who he is and what he's gonna do.

So when God decides hey, you shall have no other gods we don't get to decide Differently

when God says honor your father and mother you can't decide that you're not going to that's not your you're not your

option and when God decides that he is going to be your brother and take upon your flesh and your blood and also your sin

and Go to the cross to endure God's wrath so that you can live with him forever.

Then we say, okay.

Well, we're gonna let God be God like he wants to do it and rejoice in that.

We have to go to our first actually I guess it's our second break our midway break right now.

And by the way I think I forgot to tell Joe in Slovenia That you have won a free copy of has

American Christianity failed by Brian Wolf Mueller and this is compliments of Concordia Publishing

House and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS

comm CV BBS comm who will actually be shipping that book out to you and no charge to you or

to Iron sharpens iron radio.

So we thank you a Joe for giving us an American address where your daughter lives in, Georgia

Where we could ship this book that you've just won.

If anybody else would like to join us on the air with a question our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen ch r is a RN is the e n at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Orrins.

And if you just tuned us in our guests today for the full two hours with just a little less than an hour to go.

Is Brian Wolf Mueller pastor of Hope Lutheran Church in Aurora, Colorado Which is a

congregation in the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod.

He is co -host of the world's most famous Lutheran theological game show table talk radio and

today we are addressing his book has American Christianity failed and That is published by

Concordia Publishing House.

Before we return to our discussion I just have a couple of important announcements to make in regard to special events

that are coming up that our sponsors are orchestrating.

First of all, the aforementioned iron sharper than Zion pastors luncheon is being held on the

Thursday, October 26th from 11 a .m To 2 p .m. At the Carlisle fire and rescue banquet

hall.

This is open to all men in ministry leadership whether you are a pastor an elder and I happen to believe

those are the same office deacon parachurch leader any kind of a male

leader in the church or parachurch is Welcome to attend this

free lunch and it's free from beginning to end and This is going to feature as I said earlier

the host of a visit to the pastor study pastor Bill Shishko regional home missionary for

Reformation Metro, New York a ministry of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church denomination and

As I said earlier, there is going to be a ton of free books Donated by major

publishers all over the United States and the UK and now I hear that We're also getting some from our guest Brian

a wolf Mueller who's been kind enough to donate some books I believe by Martin Luther and So if you want to

register for that Free pastors luncheon on Thursday, October 26.

Just send me an email to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris

arnzen at gmail .com and Give just put pastor's luncheon in the

subject line.

Then coming up in November from the 17th through the 18th

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The theme this is a theme that is not unknown to our guest

Brian Wolf Mueller for Still our ancient foe is the theme that is obviously a

line from Martin Luther's classic him a mighty fortress referring to Satan and If you would like to

register for that conference go to Alliance net org Alliance net

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Well now we are finally back to our discussion with Brian Wolf Mueller on the theme has American

Christianity failed.

And we have a number of listeners who have been patiently waiting for their questions to be asked and answered.

I'm gonna go to.

The.

Bi -locational.

Susan in Orange, I'm sorry in Scottsville, Kentucky and

on Long Island, New York.

Susan asks or says.

American Christianity is unique for its inherent Democratization the result of the

Second Great Awakening and the birth of countless new denominations and perspectives on Christian doctrine during the 19th century.

Do you think this individual?

Individualistic and egalitarian American mindset born on a rugged frontier has created the type of

Christianity America that has lost.

Common ground.

I.

Can you hear me Chris?

I've lost you for a second there.

Oh, I hear you completely.

Okay good.

I got you now.

That's a great question and I don't know what comes first.

I'm tempted to think that part of the Rugged individualism of the American spirit is the result

of the field the theology that was defining the church at the time.

So so I'm I'm tempted to run the chicken and the egg the other direction.

But but I think that there is a relationship there.

You know, I again perhaps to kind of key in on the thing that Susan mentioned the the

frontier spirit and the rugged individualism.

That that defines at least that used to define the American spirit.

Also does the same thing with with Christianity.

So what is Christianity?

Well, it's it's me and Jesus.

In fact the chief metaphor that's used to define Christianity

is the idea of the relationship.

It's uh, it's it's a solo endeavor.

It's me and Jesus and.

And there's very little place for the church.

There's very little place for having a common confession there's very it's kind of

me and Jesus and Jesus is the

Jesus is the boyfriend who is too nerdy.

He's asked us out and he's he's waiting to see what we're our response is gonna be and Everything gets

subsumed into this picture of the relationship.

I mean I think the more I pay attention the more that the

defining narrative or defining picture that most people have for theology.

In the Middle Ages it was the bank, you know.

The Pope had the keys and he could dispense some merit for you and you could pay off God to get into heaven

the Reformation rightly recognized that don't the better picture the biblical picture is that of a court and

We stand condemned by Moses and by the devil himself and the Lord Jesus is our advocate

who presents as evidence for our salvation his blood in the courtroom of God and we are declared to be righteous.

That's the doctrine of justification the article upon which the church stands are false.

But we put everything dating relationship so

that now my piety is defined as a quiet time time.

Talking to God because after all if you don't talk with God, then you don't deepen the relationship.

Worship is defined as time to be intimate and close to God because that's important for the relationship.

And everything is brought into that.

To that picture, so I don't know which came first this kind of rugged individualism.

Theologically or in the American sphere now, don't you think that?

In many cases in life There are things that are commendable and good and

valuable that when not being used

as Religious or theological

Ground on which to base your relationship with God are very

helpful in life like for instance.

The.

The individualistic Mindset born on a rugged frontier as she calls it

that in many sense is what.

What happened here?

The the the ground on America from which great progress in

Invention and progress in science and medicine and all these things came about

very often because People had the opportunity finally to excel in

areas of life that they were unable to under different forms of government overseas.

And you have You know the old adage Pulling yourself up by your own

bootstraps.

That's a very I think commendable mindset if you're talking about someone.

Not relying on the government or or handouts, etc.

But when you start to use those same ideas when it comes to your relationship with God, they're they're

heretical.

Obviously as we were mentioning before plagianism is The idea of pulling yourself

up by your own bootstraps to heaven.

Right.

In fact the more I remember hearing a Mormon president give a speech where he basically used that

same phrase as the as The the very slogan of the Mormon religion that then we

are to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps to achieve

God hood the deity.

That's crazy.

Yeah, that's I mean there's a quote from second Nephi, which is the only verse I remember from the Book of Mormon because it's so

but I think it's all you need to know it where.

It says um by grace you are saved through faith or all you

can do.

So right you got to do everything that's in you and then God makes up the gap, you know.

We got it's it's this gap theory.

You don't know you're a hundred percent, right?

It's it's good of Paul says it's good for a man to work if a man doesn't work.

He shouldn't eat but he or Paul also says to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies them Godly his faith

so that God has given us here.

Here's how the Lutherans distinguish.

I think this is this helpful and I and you have to tell me if Calvin Calvin would have the same distinction.

He said that that there's a freedom towards the things below us and there's a bondage of the will towards the things

above us.

So I cannot choose to love God, but I can choose to love my neighbor.

I can't choose to serve God.

It's impossible for me to choose to believe in God, but I can go and bless my neighbor so I so

where my freedom comes in is in this life of Creativity and love as we live in this

world and that's where.

Where we rejoice in using our will and being very active in love and service for the neighbor but

when it comes to God we come not as.

Not as workers and doers but as believers so that his righteousness.

Righteousness before man is earned but righteousness that endures before God and eternity comes only as a

gift.

Yes.

Well, uh Calvinists would say that according to and this isn't the only place but

Romans 8 8 is a perfect place to look where Paul says that those who are in

the flesh cannot please God.

You cannot.

It's interesting that a fundamentalist who? Believes in the inerrancy of Scripture will

read that and somehow still believes that a dead sinner Can please God by summoning

up a faith out from his own heart His dead

lifeless heart that will be pleasing to God and will actually save him whereas a reformed Christian will

say no the even the faith itself is a gift of God and Only a regenerate heart can

produce that.

Now when it comes to the realm of even things that the unregenerate do I think that's all a

part of Common grace.

I know that some of my Calvinist brethren don't even like that term, but you have God restraining

the evil hearts of men you have God even making this world a better place for

his children by Restraining the evil in the unelect around us.

By by giving them by moving them to do good things.

There have been many times where I'm sure you and members of your congregation have been Helped

in surprising and amazing ways and in urgent ways and desperately needed ways by those who are not even Christians.

So right.

So yeah, there's an I don't know if that makes any sense.

What I'm yeah, I don't know 100 % since we're on the same page.

Well, that's what's amazing.

Is that in most American Christianity that that that's been reversed.

I mean according to the Bible I'm I'm I'm I'm not free when it comes to the things of God.

But I am free when it comes to the things of my life on earth.

I can choose who who I would like to marry if she'll also choose to marry me.

I can choose where to go to school what to do for work.

What kind of car to drive what color socks to wear that that's all a matter of my freedom.

But what I'm not free to do is to fear love and trust in God to serve him to believe in him when I'm dying.

And so forth.

But American Christianity has reversed that and said no you're free to choose.

You're free to make a decision for God, but you're not free to decide who you're gonna marry.

You got to go through all these mystical exercises to figure out what God's secret will is so they've reversed.

They've they've bound the will where it is not bound and they've freed the will where it should not be freed.

It's uh, it's flipped it completely on its head.

I got a praying fast to figure out.

Jesus I mean something is really wrong there or of course you have people with a real

I don't think it can be described in any other way than a false Piety a self -righteous piety

that tries to masquerade as some kind of humility and Masquerade as a dependence on God.

When people if some like for instance, I'll give you a perfect example I'm an advertising salesman.

I've been one since the 1980s and there was a client that claimed to be Christian that

owed Thousands of dollars for an ad campaign an ad campaign that

he had purchased.

And when every time I would ask him for an update on when he was going to be able to pay that debt He would say

waiting on the Lord brother.

I'm waiting on the Lord, you know.

Yeah, right.

And when people say that they have to pray about things that no.

You don't have to pray about it if God's commanded you to do something.

There's no there's no need for prayer on a decision in regard.

Yeah, I mean it is ironic that when people say I want to become all things to all people they happen to become.

Exactly the thing that they wanted to be.

Yeah.

Well, thank you so much Susan in Scottsville, Kentucky and Long Island, New York.

Give us a mailing address on your.

Your location of choice because we are going to be mailing you has American Christianity failed.

Compliments of Concordia Publishing House and also compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

CV bbs .com.

CV bbs .com will be mailing that out to you at no cost to you or to iron sharpens iron radio and.

Thanks for contributing such a wonderful question insightful question to our program.

We have Gary in South Point, Hawaii and He says I'm

assuming the answer to your books question to be yes.

American Christianity has failed.

But Lutheran Christianity succeeds.

What what would you suggest to alert the other denominations that their non -lutheran beliefs are

wrong now.

Even before you say anything just to to quell the hearts of

Those listening that might be angry by you defending something uniquely Lutheran.

If I believe that if you believe something to be true, you believe it wholeheartedly to be true.

There is nothing wrong with trying to convince others to believe in what you believe.

I mean, that's I think at the heart of the Christian faith is that if we see false religions surrounding

us we are not one among equals and in regard to our faith, we have the only true faith

the Christian faith, but.

Anyway, if you could answer Gary in South Point, Hawaii's question.

Yeah, sure.

Maybe not directly because I.

You know, there's a reason why I don't define American Christianity as

Calvary Chapel or Joel Osteen.

But rather define it according to these theological trends because these theological trends make it into

every single.

Denomination including and in a major way I'm writing

this book also for the Lutheran saying hey as you are tempted away from the clarity and

the clarity of Scripture and the simplicity of Christ you are losing the the

gift of comfort that Jesus intends for his church to have in his doctrine and

Including the Lutheran Church and in some ways I I wanted to define American Christian this way so that we could

also see this in ourselves, I mean.

We talked about enthusiasm and I quoted Luther how it is looking for God's Word apart from the external.

He said Luther said this this clings to us all.

They are this enthusiasm is the natural inclination of our flesh.

Our our sinful flesh has a default theology and it's a self -centered works -based

theology every single one of us and and it'll cling to us until the Lord

rescues us from the sinful flesh by giving us the gift of death and so this call

clarity of of the of the scriptures and the simplicity of Christ

is I hope to be heard for all people now.

There is some apologetic for the Lutheran doctrine in the book and hopefully that that'll stand on its own.

But to make this argument.

And this is I hope the argument is that the reason why we argue for the doctrine.

For the truth of the Lord's Word is not only because it's true I mean that would be enough if it was true.

That would be enough to argue for it.

But also because the truth of the gospel and and the proper distinction between law and gospel.

Delivers to the most like st. Paul

says that by the comfort of the holy scriptures.

We might have we might have hope so that um.

But but I'll let I'll let the interested reader kind of track that down.

It's it's it's a great I mean Christian, it's great to hear you contending for the truth.

Just you know to know that you're out there and know that we're on the same team on this thing fighting against a

theological apathy that has taken the church.

And to go back to open our Bibles and to put our nose into the scriptures and to know that the Holy

Spirit is there.

In that mean of grace that mechanism or tool of grace to bless us.

This is what all of us need to hear.

Amen.

And of course you keep repeating law and grace and it seems that for quite a while

Christianity has been marked by lawlessness and People seem

to think that that Is some kind of an improvement because it's all

about love mercy Forgiveness and kindness and compassion and all of those

things that we think are are definitely wonderful things all of us would love those

Do love those attributes in God, but but when you remove law when you remove

the fact that man must be driven to a point of

Hopelessness without God he must realize he cannot obey the law and must turn to

Christ for as his only hope for forgiveness and salvation.

Isn't this this missing element of law a very dangerous thing to remove From a

gospel presentation because of the fact that people don't even understand what's so amazing about grace.

They don't understand what's so absolutely Joyful and

and I can't even find words to describe the the exuberance

that the heart that has been forgiven feels.

You don't really know that unless you know that there are laws that you have broken and that you are deserving of hell.

Am I right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I Here's an illustration you imagine that you and I are walking through the wood and

we're trying to figure out how deep it is.

And you know, we're throwing rocks down there and trying to measure it.

We can't figure out the depth of this hole until finally it's not Chris I know how just how deep it is I tell you you say well How'd you figure it out

and and I figured it out because I went and I looked and I saw the pile of dirt that came out of the hole and I

Mounted it there and now I know I deep it is I mean when we see what it takes for God to win for

us eternal life in the in the suffering and death of Jesus.

Then we realize how bad we are.

I mean that is precisely what we deserve the abandonment of The smiting

of God on the on the Son of God that the the abandonment when Jesus says my god My god, why have you forsaken me

that forsaken that that that is what we deserve because of our sin and we think oh No, we're not that bad.

I mean, maybe I made a few mistakes, but God's a nice guy.

He'll overlook it.

No, he cannot overlook it.

He must die for it.

That's it, you know.

So if we diminish our own sinfulness and God's wrath over sin if we diminish God's holiness.

Then we don't have the gospel.

We don't have the forgiveness that we don't have the atonement.

It's like um, oh a couple years ago this guy this nut came went into the movie theater and shot up a bunch of

people In Aurora just down the street from where where we live.

Oh, that's where that was.

Yeah, and um, it's I mean the place where the guy lived is probably two blocks from the church and.

And you know, I should imagine, you know, we're watching the trial unfold and can you imagine if so this guy here?

How do you plead?

He says I plead guilty.

I did that the judge says oh god.

I'm glad you plead guilty.

What do you think you deserve?

He says?

Oh, yeah, probably I mean that was really bad what I did shooting up all those people.

I probably deserve.

Oh at least.

And we're like wait a minute what you do not understand how bad you are.

Now that's how most American Christians.

Are you again?

Have you sinned?

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, I probably made some mistakes I probably did something.

Well, what do you deserve?

It's certainly that we don't think we deserve eternity in hell.

I mean that seems pretty extreme maybe just a slap on the wrist from God.

No, no that if you think that your your sins have only deserved a slap on the wrist.

Then you have missed the gospel.

You've missed the you've missed the holiness of God.

You've missed the severity of your sin.

You've missed how deep you have fallen you you've missed.

How offensive you are to God and how you have become an enemy and if you miss how bad you are Then you

miss how deep and how high and how profound the love of Christ is and this is a

very dangerous common theological predicament.

Amen.

Well, we're going to our final break right now.

It's going to be briefer than the last one if you'd like to join us on the air or email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA if you intend to send in a question I would do so quickly because we are rapidly running out of time.

That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing.

We'll be right back right after these messages with Pastor Brian Wolfmuller.

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I'm sorry to our guest.

Um, and we are back now to our final a portion of today's program with Brian

Wolfmuller pastor of Hope Lutheran Church in Aurora, Colorado host of table talk radio an author

of has American Christianity failed.

If you'd like to send us an email with a question now is the time to do it because we are rapidly Running out of time.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We have our J in White Plains, New York who says you mentioned mysticism earlier.

Would you say that there are many charismatic and Pentecostal? movements in our day that are

guilty of this where they combine a secret knowledge perhaps of Gnosticism

with some kind of a private and personal relationship and Communication with God that completely

cuts them out of the rest of the body of Christ in an unbiblical way.

Yes, absolutely.

And I and I think there's kind of a hard mysticism and a soft mysticism.

The Pentecostals are the hard mystics.

I mean, this is just they deny the sufficiency of Scripture because they say that we

you know.

We're getting a new word from God and then you.

It's one of the definitions of the Gnostics that you have the leaders.

There who have the secret knowledge and then you have to follow their secret knowledge.

So I remember one time of one of these mystics was talking to me and they said I have a couple stories.

But one said Jesus is gonna punish your church.

And how do you know that I said?

He says well, Jesus told me and I said what could next time you Jesus talks to you.

Could you tell him to talk to me too because you get to trust Jesus, but I have to trust you.

I.

Met this guy one time who he said he was an Apostle.

He was at the McDonald's in Reno, Nevada.

And he was an Apostle and also a night shop owner and and uh, and he said oh your pastor.

You're below the list, you know, the Ephesians 4 list.

God gave some to the Apostles and some prophets and evangelists and pastors and teachers so you're

way down there on the list and I said, well, could you show me a miracle to prove that you have a direct call from God?

That's how he proves it.

He gives direct calls.

He also gives a gift of miracles.

He says no, I don't have a miracle, but I have a word from the Lord from you.

And I said, oh, yeah, what's that?

He should believe it is a pop.

Convenient, you know.

It's good because it becomes you they become the authority not the scriptures and any anyone who would say

That you have to listen to them is a false prophet the true Prophets that are in the church today.

The true pastors are always pointing to the word to the word the word the word the word says it.

So you and I are not asking people to trust and believe us.

We're pointing to the word and if we don't point to the word and to the truth of the scriptures.

Then we're useless.

We're worse than useless.

We become enemies of God in his word in his church.

So that that's that but there's also a soft mysticism.

Which says that all the spiritual activity happens in the sphere of my own heart.

So it's all about what I'm.

I'm feeling led by God and I'm and God is teaching me in the heart and I walk in the garden.

Alone.

Yeah, that's all mysticism.

It's a soft mysticism.

But it's a dangerous mysticism because it's again that comes from the conviction that the scriptures are

not Sufficient.

And I have to get another word in the heart.

No.

Dear friends the scriptures are enough with the Jesus loves you so much that he cannot let you

go without telling you Everything you need to know about him and yourself and eternal life and he's done it in the word and

any.

Anyone who would diminish that with spiritual practices or anything else is is an enemy of the

gospel.

And.

I'm assuming that you may agree with me that we do have to be somewhat careful when we talk about

Pentecostals and charismatics as if they were monolithic because there is a wide spectrum of Them and although

I am a very hardcore cessationist. I do have friends who are charismatic.

Who believe that the gifts the sign gifts are possible?

But they are not on the fringe on a lunatic fringe of any kind.

Some of them are very theologically sound in many other ways.

Yeah, I think that's right.

And there's some theology.

That's good.

I think this I think the modern phenomenon in some ways

completely has missed and the distinction

but indirect call of God.

But that's maybe a longer conversation.

We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Who says I heard a guest on your iron sharpens iron radio program some time ago?

Who said that one of the dangers of mysticism is that those involved in it open their minds

and empty it Rather than fill their minds with truth.

Do you does your current guest today agree with that assessment?

Oh.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

I mean without question this idea.

Even when we talk about meditation, you know, there's the biblical idea of meditation is Is

hearing the Lord's Word.

You're putting God's Word into your mind and into your heart and even into your mouth.

You know.

You're memorizing the words with your lips as you say them over and over.

The Luther says that we meditate on the scripture.

Let's chew on it.

We swallow it.

We spit it back up and we chew on it some more.

It's very, you know word centered this idea of Eastern meditation and Eastern

mysticism where we empty ourselves.

It's just dangerous.

I mean, I mean even if that even if there was no devil which occurs and there was no

world even your our own sinful Flesh is not to be trusted with violence.

You know, our flesh could come up with enough wicked ideas on its own.

So we're always filling our minds with the Lord's Word to fight against the world and the flesh and the devil.

By the way, I think I forgot to tell RJ and our last listener BB that you have

both received a free copy of Has American Christianity failed by

Brian Wolfe Mueller.

So, please make sure we have your mailing addresses and we'll have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service ship those out to you.

The.

The the whole thing about Mysticism I think also very often accompanies

People people being driven by a religion

that.

Is.

Really appealing to little more than the physical senses.

And you know people who Who are so desperate

for a religious experience?

They they want to feel the goosebumps and they want to be

Brought to a place of mental numbness where they could just Feel as

if they are truly in a state of worship at that point.

Which is a very dangerous thing because of the reality of of not only

Blasphemous and heretical things that could enter into one's mind and heart but actual genuine and

real demonic presence.

In fact, I don't know if you know Robert Bennett who is a Missouri Synod Lutheran.

We had him on the program speaking about the demonic realm which is something that It

seems to be very rarely spoken of in both your and my circles of Lutheranism and Calvinism.

That's something that seems to be avoided at all costs.

But but would you agree with that the danger of?

Wanting so desperately for something to feel religious that they are entering into

a very heretical mystical.

Experience.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

In fact, I mean just with this with the demon stuff.

I I judge someone's preaching and teaching.

How biblically minded they are by how often they mention the devil now, that's not the only test that you want to have.

Of course, but it's one of the marks of our secular age that we never talk about our old evil foe.

You can't read a page of Luther without reading about the devil who's right opposition to everything that the Lord does and we need to Think about that, but I think

even before the idea of opening ourselves up to demonic possession I mean this idea of the religious

experience.

It's dangerous in and of itself.

I mean the fruits are horrible, but the thing itself is already bad because.

Because if I'm judging the truth of God's Word or whatever on my own experience of it.

Then I'm just I'm setting out to see without an anchor.

You know, I am the definition of being tossed to and fro by every wave and wind of doctrine.

So that you know, I I remember for our radio show.

I was interviewing Chris Tomlin.

Who's the you know, this world -famous contemporary Christian music guy.

How great is our God and all this sort of stuff to lead people into the

presence of God?

And I said, well, how do you know when you're in the presence of God?

He says well, you know it.

But here's the problem here's the profound problem with that and that is that.

Long before the church service starts.

I'm in the presence of God and long after the service is over I am in the presence of God if

I ascend into heaven or if I fall down into hell I'm I'm the Lord is there with me.

I cannot escape his presence.

That's what psalm 139 says.

And so when they say to be brought into the presence of God.

They what they're what they really mean is to be brought into an experience of the presence of God, but there's a

There's a there's so much thing I mean once it's dangerous if it works.

Because then I think now I'm in the presence of God and all as well.

And I mistake my feeling and experience for the gospel and then there's also the danger when it doesn't work.

Well, I now God must be abandoned to me.

And I think most of my pastoral work is is to fight people's mysticism.

They come to me and they say they say Pastor I think this is the right decision.

I'm gonna get a divorce because it just feels right and I say your feelings are wrong.

God's Word says you shall not commit adultery.

Do not trust your feelings.

Don't feel like God loves me.

God has accepted me or God's forgiven me and I said, well your feelings are wrong.

God says that I will never leave you or forsake you.

Whoever sins you forgive on earth will be forgiven in heaven.

I forgive you all your sins in other words I mean most of this Work of the pastor is to convince people

that that that what is to be trusted is not our feelings.

But rather God's Word.

I mean John says it like this if our heart condemns us.

We have one who is greater than our heart.

So that our feelings should stand in service to the Lord

feelings that the feelings are to be servants of God and his truth.

Not Lord's over it.

Yeah, and wouldn't you say that a part of the reason there seems to be a rise in mysticism.

A lot of it could be the blame to be laid at the foot of the

Evangelical Church at large what very often will have a So -called

worship service that is hard to distinguish between a self -help meeting at the Ramada Inn

there is something you know, there there is a A move a removal

of awe and reverence in some cases.

Where it where it is truly God that we are worshiping.

He is our Audience when we are worshiping.

We're not supposed to be caught up so much in and how we and those around us are feeling and how we're

being entertained and all of that.

That that that all in reverence has been so removed in so many places that people are looking for that

religious experience.

Yeah, it's crazy.

I mean the entertainment based worship is just pure paganism.

But there's even you know for the Syria bring people into the presence of God.

There's even a danger there because because you

You assume that that we have some sort of like internal spiritual antenna

of God.

But we don't look we don't need that if God is going to come to us with promises.

Then we don't need any sort of internal spiritual antenna.

I mean, I don't need that.

I don't need to feel like I'm in the presence of God because Jesus told me I'm never gonna leave you or forsake you.

I mean, I don't I don't need the feeling that God is happy with me Because I have the promises of the gospel.

I don't I don't need the feeling of Closeness to my neighbor because

the because Because the scriptures tell me that you all you were far off or brought near in the beloved I mean I

have the promises of the scripture and if my feelings don't tell me the things that the scripture tells me then my

Then my feelings just like my will and my mind and everything else part of my fallen nature.

Stands rebuked by God's law.

We have Christopher from Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

Who says you mentioned pietism earlier.

Is pietism really a problem in the 21st century church?

Yes, I can't think that we escape it because there's this inescapable law.

I mean, you know some of the problems of American Christianity this idea that God wants you to be happy.

That there's no rafting

about

theology these are these are real.

But I think there's even problems when you get into the Christians who are serious about their Christianity and.

And they're but they're theologically off so that they're looking for comfort.

Not in the promises of God, but rather in their own religious activity and.

Uh -huh, and that looking for comfort in those places.

That would be what pietist effort in the

fruit a means of grace

then.

Then we're in it.

We're in a dangerous sort of thing testing ourselves.

Measuring up and and that's also a spiritually dangerous sort of thing now.

Would you say that those that are involved in a pietistic?

A heresy or aberrant behavior are very often very much like

Protestant Monks, they they they tend to separate themselves from the world.

I don't mean necessarily in a drastic way like the Amish.

But but they're they're they're people that they're not really being salt and light in the world very often because they're

so.

Huddled together.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's one of the marks of pietism.

Is it kind of excludes you?

Although there is there's like, uh, I think there's a environmentalist pietism where

you start to define Christianity by good works in the environment and then your good works are

living trees and all this sort of stuff and you and you.

Find your confidence in that.

So there's that and there's a liturgical pietism.

It's like I find my confidence that I'm at this deep liturgical tradition or

whatever.

So I think you can work that you pick either God

appointed or man appointed that you start to find your confidence in.

That's what it is.

I mean pietism is just one half step in front of works righteousness and it's and it's not

and so so the works righteousness says I have my salvation at the confidence of my

salvation in my good works and.

Those good works can be of all sorts of different.

But going to an issue that we were just discussing or that you were just mentioning

About there.

They're being a danger in some sense of people.

Fruit -checking and perhaps in a in a way that it becomes morbid introspection

at the same time.

Don't we have to be?

Be very weary of.

We have to be very conscious of the fact that We may be allowing our

our own Consciences to become seared by by just becoming so much

a part of the world.

Being so absorbed into it that we don't even realize That we are nothing

more than a Christian in name only.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, absolutely.

No, there's danger on both sides.

And I've written and I've been doing a lot of work on the conscience I wrote

training about how simply meditating on the Ten Commandments in order to

come hardened to God's law and to the accusation of the Holy Spirit, but when the scriptures call

good works the fruits of repentance, I Think that what what that is doing is that?

When we when we go to put our and I think that if

the good works of the fruit of repentance that is on

Hearing the law Accused me Specifically of my own sin and

believing and trusting that Christ's mercy has

atoned for my sins.

But and and that that repentance contrition and faith will then result in good.

I'm energized I've grabbed onto the Holy Spirit who's sending me out to love and serve my neighbor.

But my attention is put on the repentance and then the fruit of repentance will follow.

But if someone lacks repentance you know if someone's out there just living like a hellion or Their their life is not

marked by The beginning of obedience and love for God and the neighbor.

Then right they need to hear the law thing that they need is not to do

more good works.

The thing that they need is to repent to believe the gospel

and then to trust in That the Holy Spirit then Brings them the opportunity

to do the gift of good works.

And of course.

There are those who are are headed for hell that are not necessarily hellions

in the Description of the world around us or even much of the church.

You could be just totally indifferent.

You could be someone who is raised in a Christian home and perhaps you are

an heir of a whole legacy of Christians in your genealogy and

you may just Just assume that you're a Christian just because your parents were and you go to church

either regularly or on Christmas and Easter and Mother's Day and But there you don't have a heart that

beats for the gospel.

You're not.

You're not excited about the Word of God.

You're not too compassionate about seeing lost people come to Christ.

You're just an indifferent person going through the motions.

That's just as much a danger as somebody who is a prostitute.

Yeah, the great CFW Walters the first president.

He's basically a whole and one of the things that he does in there

simply beautifully.

If he says who is the Lord and in this and

secure in their own Righteousness or lack of righteousness they need to hear the

hammer of God's law which the gospel is for those who have been

brought to the end of themselves and the end of And and the end of their own righteousness the end of their own

worth the end of their trust in themselves.

They need to hear nothing but the pure preaching of God's of

God's.

So you're right.

We have this this distinction between law and gospel means we have to pay some attention or give some attention

To who are the recipients of the Lord?

They need to hear the crush.

They need to hear the sweet kindness of the Lord.

Perhaps you could just spend two minutes now summarizing what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

Well, you know as we come on this 500th anniversary of the Lutheran Reformation and we and we think about what it

means I think this is the basic thing which we can agree on and that is that if God is God that he will be God in the

way that he wants to be God and It is not our job to define God or to invent God or to

decide how he should do his being God.

It's his job and he's given it to us in the word.

I mean he said I'm God you shouldn't have any others.

He says you're a sinner and apart from me you could do nothing.

He says I'm your brother of your flesh and blood bearing your sin.

He does all of these things and he's and he does all of them for a great benefit and for our comfort.

So that to be a Christian, you know, we don't say oh, well, I believe but you know, I don't go to church or oh I believe but

you know, I live how I want her and you

know, we we don't that's not our option that's it to believe God is to trust what he says that his law has been

commandments and To trust what he says in his gospel the the death of Jesus for the forgiveness of our

sins and So we trust in our joy and our peace and our hope

and our life and everything in him and his kindness in his word.

That's that is the key thing the truth of the Lord's.

Well, I want to thank you so much.

Pastor Brian for being our guest today.

I want to make sure that everybody has Important websites and other contact information.

First of all, I know that you have a blog which can be found at wolf Mueller co that's w

o LF and as a Michael you e Ller wolf Mueller dot co

and then of course the Hope Lutheran Church in Aurora, Colorado.

I have hope dash Aurora org hope dash Aurora org and

then our friends at Concordia Publishing House.

They have been very kind to us if you want to order

The the book that we have been giving away if you didn't win one today, or perhaps you've already

won one but you still want to.

Give.

Copies to your your family friends and loved ones.

Well, you can go to Concordia Publishing House and please when you do if you

Contact them let them know that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio, but their

website at Concordia Publishing House is CPH org CPH

org and then we have The table talk radio website, which is table

talk radio org table talk radio org.

Do you have any other contact information that you care to give?

Well, the big one is that wolf Mueller dot co.

Everything kind of filters through there and your listeners might be interested.

I've been publishing some Luther's works and They can go and buy these copies of Luther's stuff for five bucks or

you can download them for free.

So I have about 30 books there that you can download for free.

So and let me know if you need anything else great.

Well I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who wrote in if you did not yet give me your mailing address because everybody

who Wrote in actually what won a book today?

So make sure I have your mailing address.

But I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior Than you are

a sinner.