New Video on Eastern Orthodoxy, Biblicism is "Cultic," Dale Tuggy States His Position

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00:34

Well greetings and welcome to the dividing line the last dividing line of this particular trip

00:41

Spend 30 well 32 days. I guess since I left now and we get home tomorrow

00:50

I just I just just saw a tweet and Oops, oops.

00:58

Oops, not that I told it not to do that. So why would it keep doing that?

01:03

I don't know why we keep doing that anyway So I've got all sorts of notifications going on here.

01:14

Now. I'm very very distracted just saw a tweet It hit 119 in Phoenix again today,

01:25

I guess that's the third time Now it's interesting is 2020 was the worst 2020 was horrible 53 days above 110 who knows we might be able to I don't think we can get there because June was just Blocked June June was nothing and So I don't think we'll beat that but we have set a new record for this number of consecutive days of 110 and 119 is

01:52

Really above 110 it Really really is and I'm I'm heading back into that furnace tomorrow and We've decided wisely that I'm gonna go straight to the office and We're gonna hook up a generator to this thing.

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We can only run one AC unit It can't even get close to dealing with 119. It's only supposed to be 116

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Tomorrow Which is hey cold snap might have to put a jacket on after 119 and But at least it'll have some air moving around and get all the

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Stuff out of here, you know the camera that I'm looking into right now Doesn't really like 119 and the microphone and the

02:48

Switcher and the hard drive they don't really like that kind of stuff So we gotta get all this that stuff out of here and you know

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I've got toiletries and stuff that just turned to goo at 120, you know,

03:01

I just pooped gone and so we're gonna Get get sweaty.

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I would imagine Getting this thing. I'm gonna get up early tomorrow morning and It's still three and a half hours to Phoenix and just try to get down there as fast as I can without having any problems in the process, so anyway, and I'm only home for a little over a month and Then the big trip.

03:31

I'm I'm really thankful for God's providence. I really am

03:39

You know, I went when Chris contacted Dr. Brownson, I'm like, okay.

03:45

All right, we'll do this and then that didn't work out appropriately and The individual

03:53

I'm going to be debating I think What what is oh that's something else, okay good.

04:01

That's not rich. It's something else going on here. Okay good. Um, I think honestly

04:11

That debating dr. Coles Gregory Coles will probably have

04:18

Wider benefit for where the church is right now than the Brownson debate would have and The reason being that I've read the first of his books.

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I've got another book I need to read so I've already gotten through that one and I've been listening to some stuff from YouTube from him and Um It's gonna be it's gonna be helpful it's gonna be helpful because you know,

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I I listened to him at a church and I was listening to the pastor interacting with him and it was

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Depressing honestly And it seems to me that dr. Coles actually holds even though he he says he rejects the revisionist position his comments on Sodom and Gomorrah on Jude very dismissive.

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They don't even deal with with the Argumentation that I've presented on these issues

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His Response to Leviticus 18 and 20 not even close

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His comments and arson a coitus Don't show much of an understanding of I mean he he understands

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Greek Septuagint, but he doesn't Doesn't seem to see for example in first Timothy That Paul is that Paul uses that along He knows poor

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Naya and he knows each what he should know is that Paul is adding that into the

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Ten Commandments at the place of the commandment on fornication

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You should not commit adultery so I There's gonna be some useful.

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I think really really useful stuff here but especially the whole idea that gay

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Christian is an appropriate moniker and The related issues it's it's a big area we may not get through all of it, you know

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It could be a packed debate, but that's coming up September 16th in Mannheim, Pennsylvania And I don't you know,

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I haven't looked at my own website. I don't know if we've put the graphic up yet But if you're in the area and he's in that area, so he's not having to travel.

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Please pray for traveling mercies because I've already set up the trip out there and You know things can happen and it can get challenging so please pray for traveling mercies for that That trip out there

07:04

This morning Before I left From Albuquerque and by the way,

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I posted a radar shot Again sometimes

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I Get distracted. So hold on just a second. This just popped up on my screen from someone.

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I don't know Neither James white nor his friend Jeff Durbin will speak to Orthodox Christians directly

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It absolutely does reek of fear Which is a shame because Durbin has some fantastic apologetics against Mormons and JWs and we could really use him on our team

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I'm not sure. This is brother Brother Augustin, which is a

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Married Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity X freemason

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That's interesting on the Masons and their lies okay, I have no idea who this is and Augustin is not a normal term for Eastern Orthodox.

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There are Eastern Orthodox that honor Augustin, but most do not and I'm not sure what he means here.

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I mean, I've not debated Eastern Orthodoxy I've tried to avoid it just simply because there's only certain number of things you can do well and personally

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The Orthodoxy in the United States is different than the

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Orthodoxy in Ethnically Eastern Orthodox places

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Russian Orthodoxy Greek Orthodoxy Ukrainian Orthodoxy now lots of divisions there that From this perspective we don't necessarily see but lots of divisions there and a lot of ethnocentrism

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In in Orthodoxy a lot of nominalism in Orthodoxy But I'm not sure what he's referring to I'm gonna respond to him or try to remember respond to him

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But by the time I get done, who knows where? That tweet

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But that does remind me That I tweeted yesterday and that's what

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I think is prompting all this stuff Jason Wallace pastor at the

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Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Magna, Utah. Most of you know Jason because Everything we've done in Utah has been with Jason the debates you look at All the discussions

09:48

I did with Alma Allred. Who's the moderator Jason Wallace and all the Mormon debates Who's the moderator

09:53

Jason Wallace and the a thief the infamous? Antifreeze atheism debate who is the moderator

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Jason Wallace? Who moderated the last debate with the two atheists on ethics and morality

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Jason Wallace did so we've been working with Jason for decades and he has just been faithfully ministering the gospel in one of the craziest places on the planet spiritually speaking and I That's how that's how

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I got stuck in Utah back in April was I stayed over to be at a celebration for how many years

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Jason's been in ministry and It was very honored to be there but ended up getting smacked by a snowstorm and having to stay longer and Learned how to try like data try to brush nine inches of snow and ice off the top of slide outs on an

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RV That was lots of fun. Anyway Jason has produced a lot of videos on all sorts of different topics.

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Not just Mormonism, but but other groups as well and so he had sent me a preview link to a video on Eastern Orthodoxy that That he'd been working on for months and I was busy with a lot of other stuff and I I just got to it and And it's already available publicly.

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And so I didn't get to you know comment on it beforehand But I got to listen to it yesterday as I was driving and so I've only seen parts of it

11:30

He said you need to watch this the graph. I've spent a lot of time in the graphics. Well When you're on the road, it's that driving time is the time that you have to be

11:39

Listening to stuff. It's wonderful. It is really really good. And so I made reference to it on Twitter on Facebook I'll try to remember to link to it when we blog this particular program and I told

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I told Jason that I'd like to have him on to talk about you know, what prompted him to do it what sources resources are used and And things like that and I do want to do that and then

12:05

I I've got a couple people that when we get back Rich is gonna have to he's told me that it'd be really really easy for me to have guests on from here and I don't get how it's easy yet.

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So Maybe we'll figure that out on the next trip because it's gonna be a long trip and But right now

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I want to have Jason on to talk about the Eastern Orthodoxy video and I also want to have

12:36

Tobias Riemenschneider, I can't say Tobias Riemenschneider anymore without going Riemenschneider From Frankfurt Germany on as well to talk about his new book

12:48

Everything port port Tobias everything he does he has to translate it into English. Of course his English is awesome

12:54

So it's pretty nice to be able to do that But I want to have them on over the next couple of weeks as well

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Here on the program but look up the failure of Eastern Orthodoxy just just put that in the search bar, right?

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Well, not right now But on YouTube and it's two hours and 15 minutes long.

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It's it's not a shorty but very very useful there because there's just not all that much out there and Like I said in my opinion the

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Orthodox in the United States They're very different from the Orthodox overseas and I've been overseas a lot of these people haven't

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I've been you know, I taught in Ukraine for years and So Yeah, it's it's a big subject and we we talked about it when

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Hank Hanegraaff converted and stuff like that But I'm sure we'll be doing more and like I said, I'll have have Jason on we can we can discuss that kind of stuff

13:53

So that just popped up and right in front of me and I I should

13:58

I shouldn't You know pastor Steve camp just Responded to the 119 in Florida.

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We call this summer. Believe me. I don't think has Florida ever seen 119 there's a level of of Extremity there.

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That's a fact. I think it'd be best if I if I minimized Twitter if I'm gonna get anything else done um

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Except that probably I think that is where I had No, I didn't.

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Anyway, I saw I was saying I was in Albuquerque and I saw a tweet

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From a friend and I was I was stunned

14:53

Last week we worked through the Horrifically edited.

15:01

Let's just drop this in here in the book thing from Matthew Barrett on What is

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Biblicism and just a reminder? This is coming from Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

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I Don't know what the What the the board there is even thinking to be honest with you

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Um, maybe it's just hey, we're getting published that's cool enough for us we don't care what the results gonna be anyway

15:31

We looked at the section from his new book That just it doesn't fit in the context.

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It was just dropped in there. I guess he said it's from Another book hasn't finished yet on systematic theology, which tells you something about where that's gonna go

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But it was just a hit piece. It was rhetoric. It was it was unfair It was imbalanced.

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There was no no attempt to even try to be Charitable to the other side to go.

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Hey, you know what only Ten years ago All of us called ourselves biblicalists and We understood that to mean this we understood that Not to mean that church history was irrelevant or not that confessions and creeds are irrelevant but that there is a

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Hierarchy and that there is an emphasis upon the necessity to derive the core

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Revelational truth from that which is they honest us that which is God -breathed and That there is a fundamental difference between something that is

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God -breathed and something is not now I'm sitting here and I'm Looking at the cash stuff

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Which is telling me That we're crashing and dying badly,

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I Don't know why It's worked perfectly fine in the past, but we're in a new location and I didn't

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I didn't put star link out, you know, so We'll probably end up having to upload this one anyways, and it's all gonna crash and burn on us so We're using a 5g hotspot.

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It worked fine right up until this point, but We do have a fair amount of weather coming right on top of us right now.

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Maybe that has something to do with it I don't know. I apologize for the interruptions We press on anyways and So there were the thing from Barrett Was just really bad and I responded to it

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I had written an article last year all I've seen I have not seen anyone. I've not seen any of these quote -unquote confessionalists even try

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To argue what's what is interesting is Barrett does make reference to Calvin's response to Saddle Edo and tries to use it on his side, but I Don't see how you can do that.

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If you actually read the whole thing anyway, I Wrote an article on reformed biblicism that I think is perfectly consistent with how

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Calvin did things and How we all had been doing things

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For decades And That's what

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I've believed and preached and taught in schools seminaries and church pulpits all around the

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United States and around the world and So this morning

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I saw Pat Avendroff now the Avendroff brothers One Up in New England one up in Nebraska Mike and Patrick I Have spoken in both churches multiple times

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Pat Pat and I used to ride bikes together. In fact, there was a time in the 90s when

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I could beat him and then he became a Semi pro I guess and got really got into it and gotten super fit and all the rest that stuff and that's that's cool

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That's great but Pat Avendroff Who put a book out called

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Covenant Theology was Responding to someone named Jesse Randolph.

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Now, what's interesting is Jesse Randolph's a master seminary guy, too and I don't know what the background here was it looks like there was some kind of a

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Of a conference or something where In a presentation in a talk

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Jesse Randolph made reference to something that Pat Avendroff had said that there was

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I saw a tweet where he was talking about it and Evidently, Jesse Randolph would be more on my side of things in regards to The great tradition stuff and Craig Carter and Matthew Barrett and Aristotle and Thomas and all the rest and so Pat Avendroff on the 23rd of July Said thank you for promoting my book addressed to Jesse Randolph.

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And then he says Biblicism is cultic and then later

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I'm not sure if it's a response to that or an expansion of that or just what? Thanks, Jesse Randolph for calling me out before the

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IFC a for being a historic Christian question mark exclamation point question mark exclamation

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Seriously, please know that I will be here for you when you are ready

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Biblicism is not historic Christianity and is therefore cultic now,

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I don't I don't know where this and I just I'm not sure who that that is again it okay, and I just saw 23 minutes ago

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Patrick Avendroff wrote to me Happy to send you what I wrote about it in 2016 directed toward those who reject things like classic covenant theologies

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Labels such as covenant of works grace and redemption. I just emailed you. Thanks James Um classic covenant theologies labels such as covenant of works grace and redemption

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Well, I don't see any reason to reject any of those and I don't know how that's related to biblicism unless again

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Barrett's definition of biblicism was Disjointed and a

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A historical really in fact was fascinating what he referred to and Chris Wissamon did a thread on this on Twitter today

22:47

Chris followed up on the sources that Barrett cited and The earliest source that he cited was

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Roman Catholic source that was going after solo scriptura and calling it biblicism and scriptural ism

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Why use those sources? Aren't we don't we still believe in solo scriptura?

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Aren't we supposed to be defending solo scriptura? I mean Barrett's constantly saying oh this

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Roman Catholic all the best and this guy is over here. This is great and you know, we've shown pictures of the staff suggestions in the bookstore at Midwestern where four out of the six were from Roman Catholics and Everybody's like oh, that's just that's just scholarship

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Okay, and so you're using Those kind of sources to even define biblicism when they're attacking solo scriptura very strange, um, but anyway

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So, I don't know what the context of here is But saying biblicism is cultic

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Pat There was a hill that we rode a couple times.

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In fact, if I recall We raced it like three times one day And I think you won one and I won two or maybe it was the other way around.

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I don't remember But we sort of split it, but it was it was hard work and If we had stopped the other end,

24:24

I think we did catch our breath turn around go back do it again And if we start chatting, could you imagine back then?

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Any context Where biblicism would have been considered an insult or where you would have said biblicism is cultic or Where I would have said biblicism is cultic.

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It just seems to me today There's far more danger from people who are abandoning the highest view of Scripture and the ultimate authority of Scripture and Submitting Scripture to authority outside of itself.

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There's far more danger from that I mean we recognize when people try to reinvent the wheel we recognize those groups we recognize the revivalist groups from the

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United States, you know the United States, you know in the 1800s and and You know, we're just gonna try to start all over again

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And you know We get that and nobody can do that even the people that pretend to be doing that can't do that The vocabulary has come from from you know, all sorts of people before us

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But there is a huge chasm to jump over to get to the point

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Where you're gonna say something like biblicism is cultic There needs to be such a

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Massive Effort put into accurately defining what we're talking about ten years ago if you had asked

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Anybody at Masters To describe

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John MacArthur's ministry what would have been the most common term used?

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biblical biblicist biblicism preach the word

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Right So why on earth now are?

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We willing To Trade all that in and go Biblicisms ism's cultic.

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What do you mean by it? Because I'm a biblicist and I was when

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I preached your church Were we cultic back then No, you're not you're not rejecting these.

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Okay. Yeah, we can you we can have discussions and use labels

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But what's the ultimate standard by which all those things are going to be judged? It's not the great tradition

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You can't be a Protestant for very long consistently and Talk about the great tradition because we don't hold the great tradition.

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We are biblicist on so many things How we do church

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Our understanding of the church offices how we do the ordinances or sacraments whatever term you want to use

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We are biblicists on all that stuff all that stuff

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I Don't understand How on earth any?

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Protestant let alone any Baptist Could ever utilize

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The the phrase Biblicism is cultic.

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I Don't I don't get it. I I just Do not understand it in any way shape or form.

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So Who's changed

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I mean everybody changes over time Everybody develops everybody grows But when it comes to this issue

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I'm just seeing a This isn't right just simply to throw out biblicism is cultic

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There is a proper defensible right and We all used it definition of biblicism

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And it's not cultic By any stretch of the imagination and we shouldn't be using that if you all are going to be criticizing

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Biblicism you all need to define it and that Matthew Barrett thing was a face Plantingly bad failure as to what biblicism as we all used to practice it and confess it

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Meant and what it was, you know, if you're just talking about well, we all we can use our

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Is biblical terminology, that's all that's all we can do. I don't know anybody who's arguing that I Really don't

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I mean, you know Church of Christ does it but they don't do it for a long period of time because they can I'm certainly not doing that what

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I am saying is the apostolic emphasis in Defying the

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Christian faith can only be found in Scripture. It cannot be found anywhere else It cannot be found in creeds.

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It cannot be found in confessions. And yes, I still believe

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I Still believe very clearly and very fully in the supremacy of Scripture and the fact that what we believe in our creeds and confessions

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Semper Reframanda and If people at well,

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I was You know Karl Barth came over there this this theologian I feel it was just meant to be able to change everything no

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Every time I've used that phrase In a debate with a Roman Catholic or anybody who had external authorities every time

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I have been very very clear that what I'm saying is the church is the bride of Christ and And listens to his voice and never substitutes her own for his

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That's absolutely central and necessary so I'll take a look at your email and get a chance can't do that right now

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But if you're gonna say biblicism is cultic you need to be much clearer in your definition

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You really really do you can't just throw that out there? because Like I said

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Even ten years ago let alone back in the 90s even ten years ago No one would have had any idea what that was about not amongst us

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Anyway, not amongst us. Okay. Um, I want to get to some of the stuff I'm getting hammered with messages and stuff that look really really interesting but Anyway Huh, it's gonna be a busy evening.

32:10

It's got to be a short evening. It's tomorrow's gonna come really really early Um, why don't get to finally talked about doing this and so much other stuff has come up I want to spend the rest of the program

32:25

Since the live stream has failed. Sorry. Apologize to that. Everybody don't have any idea why

32:31

You know you can we can sit here and it was for I started 15 minutes before we started the program and it was fine for 15 minutes and then you start the program and Stuff happens.

32:45

I don't know like I said because of the brevity of this stop. I didn't put Starlink out

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But when we did the speed test everything was fine. So I I don't know ah

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Mentioned at the beginning of this trip Because it was right the beginning of this trip. I listened to The dialogue between William Lane Craig and Dale Tuggy as I was

33:11

Leaving on the very first day of this trip seems like a long time ago and We haven't

33:20

I haven't played any of it in all that time we've been talking about the stuff and we've been dealing with a lot of Unitarianism and we've gotten into all sorts of Biblical studies, which has been great but we haven't listened to it yet and So I want to go back there and and do some of it again

33:38

I will be playing this a little bit sped up just simply for time sake

33:44

And it makes everybody sound smarter when they can talk faster It's not Mickey Mouse speed chipmunk speed

33:52

But it's just enough to get things done a little bit faster. So To remind you there was it was about a year ago or so There was a dialogue between William Lane Craig and Dale Tuggy They only had an hour and In the first part

34:13

Craig is defending his view against Tuggy and his view is a

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Sub -confessional sub -orthodox Perspective that he claims is hey, well,

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I believe in soul of scriptura. Well We could disagree it but we have disagreed

34:34

I mean I've criticized Craig's amazing statements about the Trinity a number of times in the past, especially when he compared it to Kerberos Well, yeah, he's a neopolynarian.

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So he's not Orthodox. I'm talking the Trinity. He's just not and The dialogue was in my opinion a waste of 30 minutes

34:55

It is it is however a wonderful illustration of just how empty

35:02

Philosophical Trinitarianism is in fact, I was thinking yesterday. I we again we've been trying to use this

35:09

Wonderful gift of this studio The funny thing is last night. I did a program with somebody else from Albuquerque and It was always supposed to be an hour.

35:20

We did two hours and 15 minutes No problems whatsoever Same same

35:26

Wi -Fi hotspot the Hawaiian yards. No problems. And then we try to do the dividing line next next day that work

35:34

But one of the super chat questions that came in was about recommendations for books on the

35:41

Trinity and one of the things that I said was I said There's a lot of books been written on the

35:48

Trinity recently There hadn't been when I wrote the Forgotten Trinity there had been a dearth of books on the

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Trinity for a long long time and I said if you pick up one of the new books if you're if You're lost or bored in the first 10 minutes get rid of it.

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Don't put yourself through it I said one of the things I'm most proud of is that I've I've had so many people come up to me over the years and say

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I love the Trinity Because I started off with the discussion of why is it we never hear anybody say

36:19

I love the Trinity but one of the comments I made and this will be a fence fence of some people, but It's my experience and check it out for yourself

36:30

You look at all these books that are being referred to by Protestants as the best in the field from Roman Catholics on Trinitarian issues

36:41

They are Exultifyingly boring There's no passion

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Anywhere. This is not meant to edify the people of God it is

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It's like reading a really smart person talking about nuclear physics

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Okay, yeah, they're really smart and they're really good at what they do. But the Trinity isn't nuclear physics

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If it doesn't impact your daily life if you don't see how it's meant to be central to your worship and and If it doesn't cause you to worship

37:19

Nuclear physics Important stuff. Everybody's looking at the Oppenheimer movie,

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I guess right now. Okay fine But I said on the program I said

37:29

I Don't know how people write books like this. You have to be passionate about this.

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This is not something you can fill pages with and Same thing here the

37:46

Philosophical back and forth. Well, you know the model that I prefer and and and Philosophers can just go.

37:56

Well, I'm not sure I affirm that but I sort of think and well What do you how do you define this and it's just this sophistry?

38:03

It's just it's like oh my goodness What an utter waste of time

38:09

So halfway through the host said hey we only have Dr.

38:15

Craig for an hour. So we were at 32 minute mark. I think you're gonna hear him say that and so they switched and so let's

38:26

Make sure that now I don't have anything to show you here Because this is all audio

38:34

I Mean I'm sure there it was video but it's It's one of those talking head things where you've got three faces staring at you.

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So big deal but let's let's dive into this and See what we can see.

38:51

I Mean, I don't see why it matters why we call the person Shift to the to the next section because we're at the 32 minute mark and we've only got dr.

38:58

Craig for one hour. Okay, so Let's go ahead and turn now to your view dr. Tuggy, you'll get to defend it in in a little bit more detail here

39:06

So first, why don't you explain? What what is Unitarianism? So a

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Unitarian Christian theology is anyone on which the one true God is the Father alone So the Old Testament Yahweh turns out to be one in the same as the one

39:19

Jesus prayed to as our Father in heaven Jesus for us is a man a human person who is God's unique Son and Messiah And we agree with all clear

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New Testament teachings about him such that he died for our sins that he was raised in more Totality by God and he was exalted to God's right hands where he now among other things is the unique mediator between God and us

39:36

And in general, we want to interpret difficult and unusual New Testament passages Which are often the favorite apologist passages by the way

39:43

Philippians 2 John 1 Colossians 1 we Catch that whoops

39:50

Catch that the unusual the unusual think about what he just Philippians 2 is

39:59

Fragment of a hymn of the early church. It's unusual That they would be singing.

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It's a sermon illustration It is so basic to Christian theology that Paul can cite it as a sermon illustration you don't cite

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Unusual strange weird difficult off -center stuff as a sermon illustration it's something everybody at Philippi already knew and John 1

40:36

The the prologue that gives you all of the The print the lenses that you need to understand the rest of the gospel pretty strange stuff there

40:47

It's just that's not the clear stuff. That's the I Mean, this is insulting to the writers of the

40:56

New Testament that John 1 Here's John laying out this is what

41:02

I want you to see in my gospel and look at this at the end Oh my lord and my god. Oh Wow, the themes all fit together, but that's strange.

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It's unusual No, it's not. In fact, let me let me let me back it up here.

41:17

Let's let's make sure I I Want to make sure that we get the terminology very very clearly here.

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So We agree with all clear New Testament teachings about him such that he died for our sins that he was raised to immortality by God He was exalted to God's right hand where he now among other things is the unique mediator between God and us

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Notice he doesn't have You know his pre -existence. He's the creator of all things, you know, all those other equally clear

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New Testament teachings And in general we want to interpret difficult and unusual New Testament passages, which are often the favorite apologist passage

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Difficult and unusual Difficult and unusual what makes them difficult?

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Uh They don't fit into a Unitarian perspective. That makes them difficult the the deep

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Presuppositional nature of Tuggy's commitment to Unitarianism. He doesn't see it. You can point it out.

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Just Yeah, not not gonna see it not gonna hear it But it's so obviously clear by the way

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Philippians 2 John 1 Colossians 1 We want to interpret the more difficult passages by the more numerous and the clearer ones so Colossians 1 didn't mention that one.

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You need to realize that What's going on in Colossi is a presentation of Jesus as one of the eons as part of the lower realm

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And Colossians 1 is saying no You can't do that. He's the creator.

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He's the maker of all things Well, that's difficult Central you you all you completely eviscerate

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Paul's anti -gnostic polemic By calling it a difficult

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No, it's it's clear as day But the only reason it's difficult is they don't believe it.

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They just they just don't accept it All there is to it

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So that's what it is. It has nothing to do with Unitarian Universalism, by the way That's why I call it Unitarian Christian view. It's a

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Bible Bible motivated view Okay. Now what are some of your reasons for holding this view?

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Obviously the data from the New Testament? I know that you you Think that that's a reason you can lay that out in more detail specific verses if you want

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But if there are other reasons as well, go ahead Well, I mean, it's a whole bunch of things about the New Testament, right in John 17 1 through 3

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Jesus prays to the Father and calls him the only true God, right? Dr Craig has authored a textbook for kids on logic

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So he knows how you analyze a statement like that Says that the Father is true God and for anything whatever if it's true

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God only if it just is the Father There's two claims that God God is sorry the

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God is the Father is God and that nobody else is those are the two claims that are being made there It's not just that passage.

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It's all over the new Did you notice of course? 1 through 3

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Well, let's not look at 5 Because 5 will demonstrate that we have no idea what we're talking about and that we are isolating the text because in verse 5

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You have one divine person speaking to another divine person about the glory. They shared together in eternity paths

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There is no way around no way around that and he knows it and So yet you just have to just like the

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Muslims you just have to focus on verse 3 ignore its context ignore the rest of John and say nope, nope, there it is father alone is

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God and Doesn't matter if in two breaths

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Jesus saying glorify me with the glory, which I had in your presence before the world, but that's not worry about that.

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I'm taxed just Yeah, New Testament is usually an assumption.

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It's not a point of dispute in those times So it's far more often assumed than it is stated You know less do you think that Jesus is

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God in the same sense that the father is? Multiple times in the New Testament and there's nothing unclear about these passages.

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The father is referred to as Jesus is God now Constantly over and over again.

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Now, by the way, Craig's gonna get in here and this is the one place where Craig will actually Present some serious argumentation, which was nice but Unitarians and I've said this on previous programs demonstrated this on Twitter Unitarians Will not allow for the reality of the incarnation

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The word cannot be made flesh Jesus can't be talking about having come down from heaven we can't have any of that kind of stuff and so you will take statements about Jesus's incarnate state where Philippians 2 says

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Equal with God the Father but He empties himself

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That doesn't mean he loses any of his divine prerogatives But as Christians from the beginning

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I've used terms like veiling Voluntarily laying aside for a season for a purpose to accomplishment if If you all can't use that terminology

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Then you just don't want to deal with the New Testament and you just are in love with a philosophical system

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But anyway That reality of the incarnate state is

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Right there in the New Testament, but they just it's just like it just doesn't even register with them. They just will not even consider it and so they'll take statements about Jesus in the incarnate state and then transfer that to Before the incarnation or after the incarnation or or whatever they need to do to deny the deity of Christ And we always have to keep an eye on that because that's you know, that's that's what the the

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Muslims do all the time Unitarians do it all the time as well for pretty much the same reasons actually

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And it said that Jesus has is under the same God that we are under which is something that God could not do

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Or he does a bunch of things cats that something God cannot do can't be an incarnation. It can't be an incarnation

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The watch the debate I did with Abdullah Cunda 2011 Australia, New South Wales, Sydney Over and over again, that's fundamentally what you encounter

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When you're dealing with Muslims, well, God just can't do that God can't do that and you say so God can create a perfect human nature

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But he cannot join himself to a perfect human nature to accomplish his own glorification, right that's what you're saying

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Not like you came up with that from the Bible. That's just a philosophical conclusion. You've come to God can't do you know, he's tempted.

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God is essentially immortal. Whereas Jesus dies again, one of the most

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Simplistic errors that Dale Tuggy makes over and over again. Of course. God is immortal and God did not cease to exist but the whole point of the incarnation

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Was to be able to offer the sacrifice for sin for all of God's people that requires the

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God man and He gives his perfect human life. It doesn't cease to exist Not even not even his humanity ceased to exist because that's not what death is

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But he gave his life on Calvary's tree and he's buried and he rises again three days later and They're just to be saying well

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God can't do that God just nope. God can't do that. And that's that's why you know

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Unitarianism is just so beneath Christianity Because that's the whole point of the

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Christian faith is that God did that and it's amazing that he did that and it's a demonstration of his love and his condescension and his grace, but Unitarianism has none of that and it's

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Saddening. God can't be his own mediator, but Jesus is the mediator between God and us Of course,

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God can't be his own mediator. But there are three persons in the Godhead and one of them has

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Been united to that perfect human nature He becomes the God man is still the God man and is the means by which we then are

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United to God through him without that you still end up with exactly what you have in Islam You have us separated from God.

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There is no intimate union and There isn't a Unitarianism either Because you you cannot have the people of God United to God by a mere creature

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God has to bring that about himself He does that through Jesus Christ. That's why you look at Ephesians chapter 1 everything that's done there in Christ in him in the beloved and That continues to be the case and that can that that's the whole point of you know

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Hebrews 6 we have that anchor in the holy place because that's where Christ has gone as our forerunner and we are

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United to him and He is able to save to the uttermost

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Because he's the God man he will he is perfect in what he does In everything that he does including bring about our salvation

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There's a lot of other things about the New Testament the pattern of worship. I think better fits my view than dr Craig's there is nowhere in the

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New Testament where there's presupposed worship of the Trinity. It just never happens I remember last week we went through Revelation 4 and 5 and we saw the expansion that is necessary From Isaiah 6 in light of the incarnation now, we have the

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Lamb standing as a slain The seven spirits of God that doesn't mean there's seven different spirits, but seven the fullness and so you you have

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You have it right there. You have the expansion of the

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Worship from Isaiah 6 which by the way, John 12 41 tells us the one being worshipped. There was the pre -incarnate son

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But now in light of the accomplishment that he is That he has worked out.

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You now have the clarity and all created things Worship he who sits on the throne and the lamb so He's just wrong.

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But there and there's also no worship of the Holy Spirit, which is contrary to what you would expect What you see instead is

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Well, I would I would disagree in regards to the seven spirits in Revelation but Given the role and function of the

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Spirit in at this point in time in directing people to Christ That's why you know, he just let's make these statements like which is what you would expect.

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Well from based on what Why Why do you say you'd see that you'd see it you'd expect that to happen

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Doesn't say so it doesn't it's not dealing with what scripture says the role the Spirit now is

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That's just left off the side. And again, the system becomes the The rule that the primary and ultimate

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Recipient of worship is the father. Oh and also Jesus, especially after his exaltation to God's right hand is also worshipped

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Revelation 4 compare that with Revelation 5 and Paul says in Philippians 2 that Jesus is worshipped to the glory of God the

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Father All right. God is not worshipped to the glory of somebody above him now notice what I said there

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God is not worshipped to the glory of someone above him. So notice there's a assertion being made there above him

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There's a and remember Well, that's because whenever the God that's always the father.

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Well, it's not always the father Times use of Jesus, but how about Lord? How about Lord, you know

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Yahweh? the the very name used in the Greek Septuagint Who's that applied to?

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Almost always it's applied to the Sun and So he's saying yes, there's there's

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I don't know what he used that what the Jehovah's Witnesses do relative worship here I don't know

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But in Daniel 7, it's Latreau. That's the highest form of worship I Don't know how you avoid polytheism

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Worshipping of multiple deities, but then he says but it's to the glory of God the

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Father This again it reminds me of John chapter 5 Where Jesus lays out for us this this union between himself and the father, but also distinction

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It's the son who has become incarnate not the father It's the son who is obeying the father's will for him as Messiah as the one bringing about redemption and yet we are to honor the son even as we honor the father and there is this

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Jesus isn't presenting himself as a competing deity as If the worship of the son is distracting from or Subtracting from the worship of the father

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Anymore than in Revelation chapter 5 When every created thing worships him who sits upon the throne and the

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Lamb that that means Each one's only getting 50 % That's not an understanding of worship.

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And that's not an understanding of the fact we're talking about one God Yahweh Yahweh is being worshipped here

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But we see in light of what happens in the New Testament that Yahweh is tripersonal.

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We actually saw that back in Genesis anyway You know just the way it uses the terms of God that we hear that we have the term

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God the Father in the New Testament We don't have the term God the Trinity. We don't have the term God the Son. We don't have term God the

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Spirit You just think about the fact that Well again, why would you we have our great

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God and Savior Jesus Christ. How's that? we have we have the

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When I when I give the benediction at Apologia, there's a couple of different texts that I will use but the shortest one is

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May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ the love of God the Father the fellowship the Holy Spirit be with you all and All those terms are used interchangeably elsewhere in the

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New Testament, then we have the grace of God well, here's grace the Lord Jesus Christ and Love God love

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Christ Fellowship the Holy Spirit we have you how can you just string these things together and go?

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Yeah. Well These are these are over here are creatures, but only this is the one true

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God and no Unitarianism makes a mockery of the New Testament. It is not the natural reading at all

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Is no term at all that it was then understood to refer to the Trinity. That's a dead giveaway

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They didn't believe in the Trinity Like the very first thing they would do is they would come up with a word by which to refer to this

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Tripersonal God that they believe in not only its parts. Okay, why I? Mean it happens eventually as the gospel goes out into the

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Roman Empire and as questions begin to be asked then eventually terminology is developed to answer said questions, but Who's the name

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Dale? That people in the book of Acts suffer for What's the name?

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What's the name referred to? From your perspective it would be God the father

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Yahweh or something like that, right, but it's Jesus You know, it's Jesus. That's the name that identifies the way

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It doesn't distract from the father Because they recognize what has happened in The incarnation

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You know John didn't just come up with John 1241 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and he spoke about him.

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He didn't just come up with that in AD 90 That was being taught in the primitive church

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That was the the common possession of everybody. That's why Paul can again use as a sermon illustration the high high high

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Christology of The carbon Christi and he can apply a text specifically about Yahweh to Jesus There in that it doesn't have to stop and say oh now let me you know in case anybody gets confused here

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You didn't have to do any of that. And The reason he didn't have to do any of that Is because it was already understood and believed by the people there

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So again, my apologies for the death of Livestream, I don't

59:16

I Don't know why I'll be perfectly honest with you. I Don't like that that whatever this model is

59:25

It's never consistent Sometimes it works great and five hours later.

59:31

It's like a 2400 baud modem from 1999 Did we have 14 for us by 1999?

59:38

I guess we probably did. Yeah, anyway So I just I just don't like this thing. I really don't but that's life.

59:45

All right, so I'm not sure how this is gonna work out But we'll be back in Phoenix.

59:52

We'll have our regular studio I'm just not sure what day it's gonna be just because we've got stuff to do with this

01:00:00

There's some maintenance things that need to be dealt with. I need to be taking it into The place where we get work done on it, you know, especially because this next trip it's gonna be a long one debate

01:00:13

Pennsylvania g3 It's gonna be a very very stressful Trip and she's got to be in in good shape

01:00:21

And the other stress is gonna be she's gonna be cooking for the next month and she really will be

01:00:27

I mean I feel sorry for everything in here. I'm really hoping that my

01:00:34

My background survives the extreme heat We'll find out we'll find out whether the new adhesive that I used

01:00:44

Works And if it doesn't rich is gonna want me just to leave it there and we're and do an apocalyptic

01:00:54

We almost did it with the last one, but I just I was like no I need to get this done and That's just sort of how it is.

01:01:01

So Yeah, I don't know why this program started playing the outro before I wanted to play the outro but it did and that sort of bugs me, but we'll start it now and We'll go from there.