Today I Preached and John 8 Was the Text

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602. Or toll free across the United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is James White.

Discernment Without Throwing People Under the Truck

And good afternoon, welcome to The Dividing Line. As once again, my ears bleed from the... Ah! That's loud. That's a little bit better.

Oh, goodness.

We need to do a mic check. Mic check, mic check on one. Testing one, two, there we go. Nothing like doing that after we get started. We need to do that before we get started. That'll work a whole lot better in the future.

Anyway, welcome to The Dividing Line. Yeah, we always get started on the right foot around here, don't we?

I don't have a...

I really need to develop a thing so I can go... I wonder if there's a particular sound that they have for that for Rush when he does that. Or does he really just grab... Because that really messes up whatever you're shaking.

Have you noticed that? I mean, I just put a bunch of little wrinkles in this thing I had printed out. And so, anyways, what are we talking about today? I don't know. 877 -753 -3341. I noted today on the blog that John Dominick Crossan is doing a lot of debating recently.

And, in fact, in just a matter of weeks, we'll be debating N .T. Wright on the resurrection at the ETS meeting in New Orleans. And that will be very, very good. It's sort of sad I've mentioned this to a few people because...

Folks, this is an attitude we really, really, really need to avoid. And that is I hear people say things... Because, for example, I disagree very strongly with N .T. Wright on the subject of justification and his reading of what Paul meant by that.

Our tendency is to then just... If we disagree with somebody on something that's really important, then we simply throw them right under the truck about everything. And the fact of the matter is that N .T. Wright has been one of the leading voices opposing people like John Dominick Crossan, the Jesus Seminar, the radical historical Jesus movement, etc., etc.

And books like The Resurrection of the Son of God are massive tomes that respond to that type of stuff. And you've got to give credit where credit is due. You're just inconsistent when you can look at somebody and they do something good in one area, but because I don't like what he says over there, so he...

You know, and it's just... We have to learn discernment. We have to learn to recognize that you're not compromising anything by saying, you know what, this scholar over here does a great job in this area.

And over here, you know, I don't necessarily agree, but does a great job over here. And even at that, even at that, you might say, well, you know, he said some things, The Resurrection of the Son of God, that, you know, are not, you know, on the same level as, you know, they're not as conservative as what I would say.

Okay, okay, well, I'll tell you what. Then learn from the good stuff and add the better stuff. But you still don't have to throw the guy under a truck.

You know what I mean?

It's just, I don't know. I know a lot of people assume that that's what you do when you're conservative, is that if you're really conservative, you really believe in the inerrancy of Scripture, which, you know, puts you immediately in a very small group of odd people.

When you believe that kind of stuff, then they assume, and I've seen this attitude, this is the very same attitude that I run into when people recognize that I am very conservative in my view of inspiration and things like that.

And they like, for example, what I do with Roman Catholicism, but they're King James only. And so they just throw me under the truck, you know? Or you're a Calvinist, so they just throw me under the truck.

I mean, they recognize that what I do about Mormonism is good, but since they disagree with me over there, throw me under the truck. Maybe that's one of the reasons why I'm so sensitive to it when I see other people doing it within my own camp.

But at the same time, part of it's, you know, when I go to school anywhere, when I go to almost any seminary, I'm going to be the most conservative person there. So I have to learn how to appreciate, how to mine gold from anybody and, you know, get rid of the other stuff.

You know, that's not compromise. It only becomes compromise when you start changing your own perspective. That's what becomes compromise. So, you know, I'm going to be, I'll guarantee you one thing. I need to find out where to get those CDs.

Have you noticed we all still say the same? This is how you find out if someone is an old person or an older person now. And that's me. You call them tapes. I got to get the tapes for that. Does anybody make tapes anymore?

We got rid of them. And so the modern generation says that we need to get hold of the CDs. And I just, you know, I'll get caught up with that eventually. But I need to get hold of the CDs, MP3s, whatever it is.

If you're really cool, you've got an MP3 player. And I have a number of them.

Thank you.

But I need to get hold of those and listen. I want to hear the dialogue between N .T. Wright and Crossen and the people that are going to be offering responses there to later on is quite an interesting group, including William Lane Craig.

Now, does that mean that that's going to be the same type of interaction we have on the ship, for example? That's the same topic there. No, not at all. In no way, shape, or form. And, in fact, I'm hoping for, my real desire is for that shipboard discussion to really center upon the practical living application of what it means to truly believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ in reality, not just as a parable, as a symbol.

But what does it mean, how does it look different in a person's life when you truly believe that Jesus Christ rose from the grave bodily and that becomes the very guarantee of your own resurrection? How does that impact what you have going on in your life?

Over against viewing it as a metaphor, as a symbol. How does that flesh itself out? That's what I'm hoping is going to take place. So, I'm going to be listening, and just as I've listened to the Cross and Craig dialogue and debate, and everybody knows I have a very different theological perspective than William Lane Craig does, and so that's going to impact how I answer certain questions and how I phrase certain things.

But, on most levels, at least in the discussion that they were taking place, it was taking place there, most of that, I'm pretty much on the same page. I mean, we're talking about believing that the Bible's the word of God, I'm talking about believing that these historical events took place.

But yeah, the theology that we have is going to impact the way that we respond to things. There's absolutely positively no two ways about that. So, looking forward to it, and looking forward to hearing that, what's going to be taking place.

As soon as I let my voice go down, it all of a sudden disappears. I'm not sure if anybody else is noticing that. I've heard a few words disappear, actually, a couple times. But anyway, actually, I was going to discuss today, I have queued up some more of the Patterson discussion, but what I really thought about doing, just for some odd reason, was there is a passage in the Gospel of John, and I know a number of you are immediately thinking, ah, John chapter 6 again.

No, actually, it's another of the tremendous passages in the Gospel of John. It's John chapter 8. And I thought we would spend a little time looking at John chapter 8 today, and just getting a sense of what the passage is about, making some application and the like.

And we'll see how that works out, and maybe take your phone calls if you would like to participate. 877 -753 -3341, after the break, something along those lines. John chapter 8, obviously, from my perspective, it is not the first passage that I go to in providing, shall we call, a demonstration of the doctrines of grace to those who suffer from hyper-red-letterism, that being the disease that says if it doesn't appear in red letters, it's really not as inspired as it could be or should be.

And I have attempted to speak with a large number of evangelicals who suffered from hyper-red-letterism, who did not want to see something in Paul, because we all know, as Peter said, that Paul is difficult to understand, therefore you never use Paul for theology, which is a rather amazing viewpoint.

Anyway, there are passages you can go to in the Gospels that are absolutely compelling if, once again, you can walk through the chapter. Not if you're just citing a single verse, but if you can walk through the chapter, establish a context, establish a movement of the text, and allow an entire block of text to speak.

I have seen that communicate with people in a way that almost nothing else can. I really have seen that. I mean, obviously, you can't create in someone's heart the desire to be obedient to the Word of God.

You can't do that. It can be extremely frustrating when you encounter someone who claims to be an evangelical, claims to believe the Bible's Word of God, but you just don't find any evidence in their thinking and in their willingness to examine the Word of that alleged willingness to do so.

Very, very frustrating. I see people come to the channel all the time, and they're saying, I'm trying to talk with this friend of mine, and he just can't get it. He just won't see it. Well, you can't force anybody to quote-unquote see it.

In fact, what's really been weird is that recently a fellow came into the channel fairly recently. He's not there at the moment, at least not with his regular nick, if he is. And he was talking about how he used to hate me.

And I had lunch today with another fellow who comes into the channel fairly regularly, Johnny Red, which stands for Johnny Redeemed. That's not his name, but that's how it is in channels. And likewise, I don't have any idea who that was.

Likewise, he said that he had hated me. And I'm like, well, great, wonderful. What did I ever do to you? But both of them were in the context of they had heard debates I had done. They had heard debates on the Bible Answer Man.

They had heard the debate I did with George Bryson. They had heard of something I had done in regards to promoting Calvinism. And the reason they hated me was not because I had done anything wrong to them, but because what I said bothered them.

They didn't have an answer. They knew it wasn't what they believed. And what really bugged them is the people they expected to give an answer to them and to refute me didn't. And so I found that odd. But here are people confessing, you know, I don't hate you anymore, but I did at one point in time.

I really disliked what you had to say. Well, you encounter that type of thing, and you ask people, well, could we look at the Word of God? Could we look at the text? Things like that. And you do all that type of thing, and there's my wife calling again, right in the middle of the dividing line.

Hi, honey. I can't talk right now, but we'll have to talk later. Hope you're okay.

Love you much. Bye. Bye.

All right.

And we put it on silent now because no one remembers that it's between 4 and 5 o 'clock. But we'll leave it right there because if it goes off again, that means it's a really bad thing. And so we'll see what happens.

Maybe I ought to give it to Rich, and if it goes off again, then he can answer it and find out what's really going on. So, anyway, back to the subject of the program today. I thought I had everybody in my family sort of trained at this point.

Anyway.

Anyhow, back to John Chapter 8. And the fact that you have a situation here where I like to walk people through this one. If you've gotten somebody to the point where they're willing to listen to you, actually work through a passage and do so with you with their eyes open, then, you know, that really means you've gotten a long ways.

False Faith and the Meaning of Belief in John 8

And the benefit of John Chapter 8 is the fact that you have a number of the important disputed elements of tradition found here in John Chapter 8. What do I mean? Well, you have, for example, the issue of false faith.

And I hate it when I do that. Sorry. That was the text message from my wife. False faith. And you get it illustrated in one of the best ways I know of in Scripture. What do I mean by that? Well, Jesus is preaching and he's teaching.

And listen to some of the stuff he says. We have some of our most famous passages. You have the conflict going on between Jesus and the Pharisees and the scribes. And Jesus is pushing his identity. He is emphasizing who he truly is.

And you even have the passage in John 8, 24, Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, ego, I, me, you will die in your sins. And Jesus says this to people who are standing right in front of him.

And he makes truth about who he is and belief in the truth about who he is central and definitional to salvation itself. Now we could spend a lot of time on that one because there's so many people who simply don't believe that.

They don't believe it's part of the gospel. But it's right there in the words of Jesus. Verse 25, So they're saying to him, Who are you? Jesus said to them, What have I been saying to you from the beginning?

I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you. But he who sent me is true. And the things which I heard from him, these I speak to the world. They did not realize that he was speaking to them about the Father.

So Jesus said, When you lift up the Son of Man. When you lift up the Son of Man. Remember all the argumentation we had back when the Passion came out about a year ago now? Who killed Jesus? And we recognized, you know, the only way to understand that in Scripture is to be a compatibilist, isn't it?

Look at Acts chapter 4, verse 27 to 28. That doesn't remove from people their responsibility, does it? When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that ego I me. And I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things the Father taught me.

Ego I me, the phrase I am. I keep assuming everyone has read the Forgotten Trinity, which obviously isn't the case. Ego I me, the Greek phrase for I am, that is used primarily in the Gospel of John. Not only in the Gospel of John, but primarily in the Gospel of John as a reference to deity.

And so when you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am. Ever wondered about the kind of blindness within the heart of man that can cause the Jews to do what they did when they sought to lie about the resurrection and bribe people to say the disciples stole the body?

What does that tell you? They knew. They knew the body wasn't there, and they still refused to repent. That will tell you a little something about what slavery to sin is all about, which is what this passage gets into.

And he who sent me is with me, he has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him. And so Jesus is talking about his relationship to the Father, and notice what happens in verse 30.

As he spoke these things, many came to believe in him. Many came to believe in him. Wow. Isn't that great? They came to believe in him. In our ecumenical, evangelical, seeker-friendly, whatever type of world today, that's all that's important, isn't it?

They believed. They believed. And that's all you need. Never question that, right? I mean, the most unspiritual thing that you could ever, ever do would be to question someone's belief. And yet that's what Jesus does here, isn't it?

As he spoke these things, they came to believe in him. But in the language of the New Testament, there's something interesting. Now, some people might argue that there really isn't a basis for this. I think there is.

Basis for what? Well, it's the form of the word believe that's found in verse 30. It is an aorist. Now, the old style of understanding the aorist was to describe each of the present, the imperfect, the aorist, primarily in terms of time rather than in form of action, type of action.

And part of that is because most of the time, that's how it works. But the problem is, when you only use something that works most of the time, you end up with lots of quote-unquote exceptions to the rule, which aren't actually exceptions anyways.

It just meant you didn't really describe it overly well in the first place. But when John uses this word pisteuo, to believe, and he places it in the aorist rather than the present, there is a contrast in meaning frequently in his gospel.

And we see it in John 2, we see it here in John 8. In John 2, men believed, but Jesus did not believe himself to them. Well, that's odd. And when we see saving faith described in the gospel of John, almost invariably it's in the present tense, which isn't so much talking about the time as it is the kind of action.

It's ongoing. It's not just a point. It's not just the idea of an action taking place, but nothing being said about its nature. It's ongoing nature. And we certainly see here in John 8, they came to believe in him.

That's John 8 .30. What are they doing by the end of John chapter 8? They're picking up stones to stone him. This is that kind of faith that is seen in the parables of Jesus. That is where you have that instant sprouting of some positive kind of response, but it doesn't last.

This would be the shallow ground, the ground that can be warmed up very, very quickly by the sun. And therefore, there is instant growth. But since it's shallow, there can be no growing of roots. There can be no connection to that which gives real life.

And very soon, the amount of nutrition available from the seed and from its initial germination is gone. And without a connection to a source of life, water and nutrients, there is very quickly death.

And so, that's the kind of belief we have here. You know, you hear the incarnate son of God talking about his relationship to the Father.

And that can be very impressive.

That can really get you excited. And so, many came to believe in him. They liked what this teacher was saying. But notice what Jesus does. He does what we should do. He does what we must do. He doesn't just simply go, Oh, you've believed.

Oh, that's so wonderful. Would you like to start teaching a Sunday school class? Maybe would you like to become a deacon? Do you feel a call to the ministry? Oh, you have musical talents? We'll let you lead in worship.

Isn't that what we do? John 8, 31. So, Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed him, If you continue in my word, then you are truly disciples of mine. And immediately, people throw their hands up in the air and they go, Oh, work salvation.

You don't believe in grace.

And you know what? If I wasn't a Calvinist, that would be a fairly accurate charge, wouldn't it be? You say, well, where did you get the connection there? Think about it. A Calvinist, because we believe salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit of God, it is infallible, God ordains the time of our regeneration.

That regeneration includes everything that God needs to do within our hearts to give us a new nature, to change us from being God-haters to God-lovers. He takes out the heart of stone, gives us a heart of flesh, because we believe God's the one who does all that.

We don't have any problem saying, If you continue in my word, then you are truly disciples of mine. Because we're not going to misread that into thinking that, Oh, by my continuing in his word, you see, I had this free will, see, and I chose to start down this, but it's by my continuing to choose to start down this road, by my continuing in his word, then I become truly a disciple of his, see.

There's no danger of reading it as if this is a prescription for how you become. Instead, Jesus uses the term truly. These are descriptions of the result of the sovereign work of the Spirit of God in the heart of one of his elect people.

Those people continue in his word. They're not going to be like these people. These people are exactly, they're picking up stones to stone him. They're like the people in John 6. They walk away, at least John 6.

They, you know, they walked away. They didn't pick up stones. You know, sometimes people just get disillusioned to walk away. Here, they're going to get angry.

See?

They're not going to continue in his word. Right now, the word sounded cool to them. You know why? Because it didn't expose their own spiritual bankruptcy. Jesus is about to demonstrate what happens when his word goes from talking about things out there to talking about things in here, in the heart.

If you continue,.

You abide in my word, then you are truly my disciples. And you will know the truth. And here it is, folks. Here is the big offense. And the truth will free you. Free you. To set free. That is a term every person who heard Jesus say these words knew he was talking about freedom from slavery.

Freedom from slavery. And it might even be described sort of in the way of, if we were to try to use a colloquial phrase today, a term that might communicate for us today, it's not directly parallel, but one part of it that we don't,.

When we read this,.

We don't get some of the offense of it. But if we were to say some long lines, if you continue to believe in me, you'll actually end up with a job. The idea being, you don't got one. You're unemployed.

You're a bum. You're dependent upon others. So there was a part of the very words that offended, necessarily offended, these surface level followers. And folks, if we compromise the teaching of the word of God, if you do not teach the word of God in your church in such a way as to allow all of it to speak, you don't bring all of the truth of God to bear upon your people in the Sunday school class, in the morning service,.

In the evening service.

If you duck passages because you know that it might offend somebody, you are not following Christ's example. And you're poisoning the fellowship in the process. You shall know the truth, and the truth will free you.

It will remove you from slavery. That's what's going on here. Let's continue on, because there's going to be a lot more, but we need to take a break. And we'll continue with John 8, 32, and what comes afterwards on the other side.

Here on The Dividing Line today,.

We'll be right back.

The Truth That Frees and the Offense of Slavery

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This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God. The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church.

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming Lord's Day. The morning Bible study begins at 9 .30 a .m. and the worship service is at 10 .45.

Evening services are at 6 .30 p .m. on Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7 .00. The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix. You can call for further information at 602 -26-GRACE.

If you're unable to attend, you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day.

Now the pilgrim's progress is not an easy way. It's a journey to the sun day by day. Talk of grace.

And there is Steve Camp once again. You know, he really has to drop everything he's doing and to call in to do that singing for us each week, twice a week, and getting the orchestra together. It's a lot of work and I think we should...

What? It's recording?

Oh, man.

I thought we were special. Yeah, leave the... You know, we're the professionals.

I know, I'm sorry.

We are looking at John chapter 8. I was... During the break. I should say, though, that... Yeah, that's me, actually.

Hi!

Hey, there's... We have a listener at the moment who's not in our channel. It's in a different channel. Hi, no lady. Yeah, that's me. Anyway, we've been looking at John chapter 8, but during the break I was looking at an email I just got from Steve Hayes, and I linked to Steve Hayes on my blog given his earlier response to J .P. Holding, those of you who have been following the blog know what I'm talking about, and he's now commenting on the current situation in my commentary in response to J .P. Holding.

I've got to get this up on the blog. I'll do it as soon as the program is over, and it's... Let's just say I like having folks like Steve out there doing his things. We're looking at John chapter 8, and we had just finished this section, not finished, just had encountered the statements of the Lord in response to those who had believed in him, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.

Now, two things. First of all, we live in a day and age where that term truth is under a tremendous amount of pressure.

You know what I mean?

I was discussing the emergent church movement and post-modernism and things like that while speaking in North Carolina a couple weeks ago. It's something we've had to address fairly often in the course of the past number of months, and I obviously think it's going to continue in the future as well.

That term truth is being robbed of all of its value in our modern society. When you make the creature the measure of what that means, I determine what truth is for me, you determine what truth is for you, the Lord's words make no sense.

I mean, think about it in this context. You will know the truth. No, that's not you will define the truth, is it?

No.

If you continue in his word, then you're truly... Oh, you mean there's something external to me continuing in his word. Now, immediately, the emergent church slash post-modernist slash deconstructionist slash anti-foundationalist, da-da-da-da-da-da-da, immediately want to go, well, you know, there's a personal element here,.

And there is.

No one is questioning that in the Christian faith, when you encounter truth, even though it's external to you in the sense of being in the word of God, that it changes you. That's why the Holy Spirit brings it into your life and applies it to you, and you grow in grace and all the rest of those things.

There's no question about any of that.

It's not a...

Either it's a personal experience or it's these great timeless propositional truths. It's both. And when I encounter that truth, and I know that truth, notice it does not say, know about the truth. You will know the truth.

And that truth will set you free. And when you have that type of offensiveness of saying, well, set you free, here is where we see the depravity of the heart of man. Because listen to the response. These are believers.

At least, they are aorist believers. They have had that point-action faith. Not the ongoing type of faith. Here's what non-saving faith looks like. They answered Him. Have you ever thought about that?

Creatures,.

Standing before the incarnate Son of God, who created all things, dared to give answer and argue with the potter. They answered Him. We are the seed of Abraham. And when you look at the Greek, it's actually sperma abraham.

Seed of Abraham we are. Can you hear the...

What do you mean?

We are Abraham's descendants.

We've never been... I can't even say it with a straight face. We've never been enslaved to anyone. What do you mean you've never been enslaved to anyone? You're enslaved to the Romans right now.

It is just amazing.

Remember, last week, a week ago tomorrow, I put a little note on the blog about the fact that February 11th, 1985 was the debate between Greg Bonson and Gordon Stein on the existence of God. Classic, classic debate.

Provide the link. If you haven't listened to it, you really, really, really do need to listen to it. It's just classic stuff. And in that debate, there is a little humor. There's a little going back and forth.

And Dr. Bonson pointed out that Dr. Stein had done his doctoral dissertation in the ovarian maturation of Japanese quail, I think is what it was. In other words, Dr. Stein is a naturalist. He's a scientist who's chosen to leave the field of his specialty so as to give his... dedicate his life to a campaign for atheism.

And then remember what Dr. Stein felt like he had to do in response was take a shot at Dr. Bonson's. Doctoral dissertation, which was on what? On man's ability for self-deception. And you see, Stein didn't see how grossly relevant that is.

Here we have man in John 833 that I've never read Dr. Bonson's doctoral dissertation. I would like to. I'll have to order it someday. But the fact of the matter is, I bet you anything John 833 is cited in there someplace.

It would have to be.

Here is self-deception.

We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone. Uh-oh, here comes a Roman soldier. I'm going to have to carry his pack for a mile. The Romans are telling us who to have as high priest.

They've been enslaved many times. The Babylonians, the Assyrians. The list is very long. How about the Egyptians? The Egyptians, that would be a good one. When the truth of God touches upon our most sacred points of rebellion, our responses are frequently grossly irrational.

And that's what you have right here. You can tell these people are offended.