WWUTT 535 Q&A The Rich Man and Lazarus?

Earlier this week I mentioned the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke chapter 16. The rich man died and went to a place of torment while Lazarus went to be at Abraham's side.

Is this a true story or a parable when we understand the text? You're listening to When We Understand the

Text, a daily Bible teaching podcast. Monday through Wednesday is a New Testament study, an

Old Testament book on Thursday, and on Friday we take questions from listeners. Now here's your host,

Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. And greetings from Atlanta. Yes. Hello. Well, not from me.

Yeah. We're actually in the same room here recording this, but we did this earlier in the week. At the time that you're hearing this,

I'm actually in Atlanta, Georgia. Or in the air. Or in the air. I could be 40 ,000 feet in the air right now.

I'm only there for 24 hours. It's just a short trip. But Thursday evening in Atlanta, they held a benefit banquet for the

Pregnancy Center of Jonesboro, and I'm the emcee for that banquet. So this is my second year to do that, and I sing hymns.

I do the money pitch, so I'll give some of the statistics about the center. They have saved literally thousands of babies over like the last two decades.

That is awesome. I can't remember what the number is exactly, but I know they have like a 95 % success rate.

That is awesome. If a woman comes into the center in a pregnancy situation, she doesn't know whether or not she wants to keep this baby or what to do, more often than not, she makes the decision to save the life of her child.

And it is so not clear as to what the center is when they walk in, they just know it's a pregnancy center, and they've seen billboards for it.

Because there are billboards for the center in Jonesboro, which is a suburb of Atlanta. And I mean, super, super busy.

I don't know if you noticed on Twitter a couple of weeks ago, but Tara Boulevard was trending because there was a massive traffic jam on Tara Boulevard, and that's where their billboards are located.

Nice. So it's something like, I can't remember, tens of thousands of people every day drive by those billboards.

That's a lot of people. It is. It's a huge traffic route. So the women who will see those billboards and go into the center, some of it,

I think I've heard that it's like half, half of the people that walk through those doors actually think that they're walking into a place where they can get an abortion.

And so you have 95 % of women that walk through those doors, make a decision to save their child's life instead of have an abortion.

That is wonderful. Yes. So it's an amazing work that this center does, and it is an honor for me to be part of this.

And in fact, this year's keynote speaker is a former abortion doctor.

And so he's talking about how he went from killing children, and I think it's in the thousands, how many babies he killed before the

Holy Spirit changed his heart. Praise God. And showed him that what he was doing was murder. And so he is -

That's so hard. Now sharing his story and encouraging people to donate, financially support these pregnancy centers, because they're non -profit.

They are. And most of the staff is even volunteer. There's a lot of people that will work for pregnancy centers that don't even make anything off of it.

So if you know of a pregnancy center that is in your area, I would encourage you to either support them financially or donate some time if you can, because they could definitely use the help.

So anyway, that's what I'm in Atlanta doing, and it's just for the banquet on Thursday night, and then I fly right back to Kansas on a

Friday. So yeah. So today, as you're listening to this program, I'm either in Atlanta or I'm way up in the air.

Oh yeah. Sitting in a chair, flying over the United States. Which is - All done with your MC. That's right.

But it's an incredible thing. I get to sit in a chair and fly through the air at 500 miles an hour.

It's awesome. Sure. Actually, it is, because I will enjoy having you home that much quicker.

Sure. The marvels of modern man. Love it. And we can get a gigantic flying machine up in the air.

That's just incredible to me. Anyway, I marvel at airplanes. I think it's amazing we can get this gigantic ship up in the air.

It's incredible. All right. So this is Friday when we take questions from listeners, and you can send questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

Becky, for the very first time in when we understand the text history, we are saying congratulations to a couple who is getting married today.

Yay! They listened to the podcast and today is their wedding day.

So I'm actually, I'm picturing right now that the bride is getting ready and she's got like her maids around her, putting like the headdress on.

Is that what you call it? A headdress? Veil. I don't know.

Obviously. I didn't have to wear one when I got married. Yeah. Your prep time was like 0 .2.

Yeah, that's right. We got married on a Sunday. We did. So I had to, we got done, we didn't even wait for the final like prayer at church.

I got done singing my last song and then boom, I was out the door. My brothers and I, we all got our tuxes on.

And I remember it, the photographer telling us, you know, your wedding's starting in like an hour.

I need to be taking pictures here. And we were going, oh really? Oh, like I wasn't even aware of what time it was.

So anyway. So that was. Yeah. The lady is always aware of how much time she does not have left.

So I'm picturing her. There's always something to do. I'm picturing her prepping right now and listening to when we understand the text.

So I'm saying. You look beautiful. I'm saying congratulations to Michael and Celia Medeiros of San Diego, California.

Congratulations. Thanks so much for listening to the program, for watching the videos and congratulations you guys.

Yes. So I want to read to you quickly here from Ephesians chapter five.

Sorry, I'm still over in, I don't know what I was looking for. I was in first Corinthians 13. I was going to read to you from the love chapter, but I think

I'm going to do this one instead. So Ephesians chapter five. What? Beginning in verse 22, wives submit to your own husbands as to the

Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, his body and is himself its savior.

Now as the church submits to Christ. So also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

So wife, you have the distinguished honor of submitting to your husband as a picture of the way that the whole church is supposed to submit to Christ.

Now then verse 25 husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word so that he might present the church to himself in splendor without spot or wrinkle or any such thing that she might be holy and without blemish.

In the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it just as Christ does the church because we are members of his body.

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife and the two shall become one flesh.

This mystery is profound and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

So husband, you have the responsibility of giving up your life for your wife and that you also present her in splendor by washing her with water through the word.

So husband, it is your responsibility as the head of your household to meet the spiritual needs of your wife.

You lead her in Bible study and in prayer and in understanding spiritual things.

That is your responsibility, Michael. So I say congratulations again to you both and commence wedding.

I wanted to say something Star Trek -y like engage, make it so, something like that.

Go get married. Go, go get married. Go and do likewise of what we just read here in Ephesians 5.

There you go. You were a beautiful bride on our wedding day. I still remember it very vividly.

I hope so. And it was wonderful. We couldn't dance at our wedding because we were Southern Baptists.

The reception was at a Southern Baptist church, so we couldn't dance. But my brother and his wife sang the first song that we ever danced together and so we danced.

We did. During our wedding. We didn't plan that, but it was kind of like a kiss. I did.

I did. I snuck it. Before we were married. Before the pastor said, yeah, before the pastor said, you may now kiss the bride,

I went ahead and snuck one anyway. But it was right. We were doing the unity candle as my brother was singing, as my brother and his wife were singing.

And so then it was kind of like we lit the candle and we're just like, what else do we do? So we just started dancing.

We did. It was improvised and we, that was in a Wesleyan church though. So we. That's true.

It could have confused all of our listeners. I am. Everybody's totally confused now. The reception was at a Southern Baptist church.

We got married at a, at a Wesleyan church anyway. So now that everybody's thoroughly confused.

But congratulations once again, Michael and Celia. And Michael actually wrote in with a question.

So now, now I'm getting to Michael's question here. Hello, Pastor Gabe and Becky. Hello. Greetings from San Diego.

I'm sure it's sunny San Diego. Nice weather. First, I wanted to thank you for all that you do. The what videos and the podcast have been such a blessing and encouragement, and I have learned so much through your ministry.

Thank you. And keep up the amazing work. I recently encountered someone in a small group from church that held a very strong position that the passage of the rich man and Lazarus that Jesus mentioned in Luke 16 verses 19 through 31 is an actual account and not a parable.

I have always thought that it is a parable, but had never even heard that people would think it could be something that actually happened.

I asked him about his reasoning behind it. And some of the points he gave were that number one, it is the only story that Jesus tells where he gives a name to one of the characters.

Number two, the passage does not have a sort of allegorical or symbolic meaning, unlike other parables, but describes true places and people.

Number three, Jesus doesn't say it's a parable. Number four, Jesus usually explained the parables to the disciples after he had said them.

And number five, the name of the rich man is not given because the Bible says that God erases people's names from the book of life.

So those who go to hell are then anonymous once in hell. After that conversation, I started to really take a closer look at it, and I still come to the conclusion that it is a parable because of the context and parable like structure.

And I don't see that any of the points that he made would disqualify it from being a parable. A curious note, though,

I read Calvin's commentary on the passage, and he actually says very briefly that he believed it to be actual events, but doesn't give much explanation to it.

Just that Jesus names the poor man Lazarus. I was curious as to what your opinion is of this.

So let's go ahead and read the story in Luke chapter 16. And I'm still in Ephesians five here.

So hang on Luke 16. Here we go. Beginning in verse 19. All right. Jesus says there was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.

I love that word sumptuously feasting. It was a sumptuous feast and at his gate was laid a poor man named

Lazarus covered with sores who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.

The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.

And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue for I am in anguish in this flame.

But Abraham said, Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things and Lazarus in like manner bad things.

But now he is comforted here and you are in anguish. And besides all this between us and you, a great chasm has been fixed in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able and none may come from there to us.

And the rich man said, Then I beg you, Father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them lest they also come into this place of torment.

But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them. And he said,

No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent. And he said to him,

If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.

So that is the story, not parable of rich man and Lazarus.

And so there, I think I've given you my answer. Yes, I do believe that it is an actual account, not something allegorical or a parable.

And especially when we consider who the source is, this is

Jesus who came from heaven. So of course, he would know of an account like this taking place, because he is the one who came from heaven.

As we read in John 1, verse 18, No one has ever seen God. The only God who is at the

Father's side, he has made him known. That is in reference to Christ. And in John 3, we read as Jesus was having this conversation with Nicodemus, he says in John 3, verse 13,

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the son of man.

And so therefore, we know because Christ is the one who is from heaven, he would have known this story.

He's the only one who could have told this story, unless it was revealed to one of the prophets or something like that.

Like for example, we have that story in first Kings where one of the prophets says before Ahab of the holy council that took place and God is saying who is going to go and be is going to go lead

Ahab into battle. And so the spirit says, I'm going to do it. I'm going to be a lying spirit in the tongues of his prophets.

And so that the prophet was revealing something that was happening in some sort of heavenly council. Fake prophets, not the godly prophet.

The fake prophets would be a liar to Ahab. Yes. So just to clarify.

Yes. So this, this is something that Jesus is telling that has actually taken place.

And the reasons that that Michael, your friend gave, I think are pretty good reasons.

There's a couple of my would disagree with. So it's true that this is the only story where Jesus gives a name to one of the characters and not just Lazarus, but also

Abraham and Moses and the prophets are mentioned, which in the parables, they're not.

So the parable is always something allegorical. It doesn't make a reference to even the law because it's something that Jesus is tying to the kingdom of heaven most of the time.

Number two, the passage does not have a sort of allegorical or symbolic meeting like the other parables, but describes true places and people.

That is also true. Hades is mentioned and Abraham's bosom. And we know that there's some sort of chasm that divides the two, but somehow those who are in Hades can still look across that chasm and see what's going on in the paradise area, which is described as Abraham's bosom.

So we don't know how that works. It's thought it was his side. Well, yeah. In some translations, it's

Abraham's bosom, so Abraham's side, his bosom being cradling under his arm.

Right. And this is not physical. So this is being given to us in terms that we can understand, but it's not like Lazarus is physically going to a place where he's being hugged by Abraham.

Right. I don't think that's the way that we should picture that. But it's beyond our comprehension. This is, as Paul is explaining in 1

Corinthians 15, what is perishable is raised imperishable, and we cannot even enter into glory until what is perishable, what is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.

So until we become that, we can't even enter into his glory. So 1 John 3, 2, we will see him as he is because we will be made to be like him.

And in Philippians chapter 3, that our lowly bodies will be made to be like his glorious body by the power that enables him to subject all things to himself.

So until we become that, we can't even see this, what Jesus is describing here.

He's giving it to us in terms that we can understand. In layman's terms. Layman's terms. Right. In the realm in which we live.

But once we get to the other side, this is going to look totally different to it. Whatever picture you've got in your mind isn't even going to compare.

Right. I'm sure. To what this actually is. So however this happened, there's some sort of divide, some sort of separation between those who are in Hades and those who are in Paradise.

And the one in Hades can look into Paradise and he can see that Lazarus is there at Abraham's side, and he is receiving good things in Paradise, whereas the rich man is now in a place of torment.

And so he is even able to communicate to Abraham somehow. So go back to, send

Lazarus back to warn my brothers of this place. And Abraham says, they have

Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them. Right. No, but if somebody comes back from the dead, they will repent.

If they would not listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't even be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.

And that is a reference that Christ is making to himself. They wouldn't listen to Moses and the prophets.

So of course, they're not even going to listen to me. Right. Even when I rise from the dead. Because Moses and the prophets were talking about Christ.

It is him who they were, that they were talking about. He was going to fulfill all the law and the prophets.

And so we can know who Christ is, even from what we read in the prophets.

Jesus is the fulfillment of those things. And then the apostles carry forward the message of the gospel unto all the world.

And that's how we have the rest of the New Testament. But anyway, as for this particular story, yes,

I believe that it is an actual story and not something allegorical or or something that would be a parable that would qualify otherwise as a parable.

The number three reason that you gave there is that Jesus doesn't say it's a parable. Well, most of the time he doesn't say it's a parable.

Usually it's the narrative that says it's a parable. Oh, that's true. It'll say and Jesus gave them this parable and then it will be a parable.

So usually it's the writer of that gospel that will say it's the parable. And by the way, parables only appear in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

There are no parables in John. So we're only seeing parables in the synoptic gospels. Why would there not be any parables in John?

It's because it's the latest gospel that was written. And it's those things are well understood and being circulated in the gospel message that is being proclaimed.

There really wasn't a reason for John to have to say them again. So John is approaching another aspect of Jesus's ministry that was not in what

Jesus revealed in parables, less to do with his teaching of the kingdom and more to do with the revealing of himself as the son of God, as the

Messiah. That's more what John is focusing on. So then in your fourth reason that you gave,

Jesus usually explained the parables to the disciples after he had said them. I disagree with that.

Now, in the first parables Jesus did, he explained them to his disciples, but he doesn't always explain the meaning of the parables.

There's actually a lot of parables, the meaning of which is not given. And so we actually have to, in our study, understand what the meaning of the parables is based on the context in which they are given.

But the reason that Jesus speaks in parables, as we read about in Matthew chapter 13, is so that people would not understand, so that only his disciples would understand the parables, but that other people who are not his disciples would not understand the parables.

So oftentimes we think of parables as being spoken as something that helps us understand it a little bit better. Well, Jesus actually gave the parables so that they would not understand what he was talking about.

So it would confuse the crowd. So Matthew 13 10, then the disciples came to him and said, why do you speak to them in parables?

And he answered them, to you, it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them, it has not been given for to the one who has more will be given and he will have an abundance.

But from the one who has not even what he has will be taken away. This is why

I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Indeed, in their case, the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that he says you, you will indeed hear, but never understand.

And you will indeed see, but never perceive for this people's heart has grown dull.

And with their ears, they cannot. They can barely hear. And their eyes have been closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn.

And I would heal them. But blessed are your eyes, Jesus says, for they see and your ears for they hear.

For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people long to see what you see and did not see it and to hear what you hear and did not hear it.

And then as this is in the context of the parable of the sower, Jesus goes on from there to explain the parable of the sower.

But not always do we have an explanation of the parables in Matthew 13 in the parables that Jesus gives.

Oftentimes there's an explanation, but not all of them. For example, we have the parable of the hidden treasure.

You have the parable of the pearl of great value. You have the parable of the net and the explanation is not given of those parables, but some of the parables he does give an explanation for.

Okay. Okay. So in this story in Luke chapter 16, Jesus is not giving a parable, nor is he providing an explanation for it, but rather he is pointing to himself because he is the one that is going to rise from the dead.

And he's pointing out that the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, they don't understand who he is because they don't even understand

Moses and the prophets. If they understood Moses and the prophets, they would know that he is the one who has been sent from heaven as the

Messiah who would take away their sins. But they don't know that because they don't understand

Moses and the prophets. So that's the point of the story. And it is a story.

It is not a parable. So he's not trying to teach a lesson to them. Rather, he's speaking in rebuke of the

Pharisees. So Michael mentioned context there. We'll consider the audience that Jesus has in the verses previous.

So in verse 14, the Pharisees who were lovers of money heard all these things and they ridiculed him.

And he said to them, you are those who justify yourselves before men. But God knows your hearts for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

So he's explaining these things to the Pharisees so that they would know that by these words, they are condemned if they do not repent.

Right. So he's speaking in ways that they can understand. That's why this is not a parable, because he means for the

Pharisees to understand what it is he's talking about. OK, so he wants them to know that they're sinning, that they're in big trouble if they don't repent.

So then number five, the name of the rich man is not given because the Bible says that God erases people's names from the book of life.

So those who go to hell are then anonymous once in hell. I don't agree with that reason because we have plenty of people's names in the

Bible, namely Judas. Yeah. But even the kings that we're reading about in first and second kings, many of them would perish without receiving the reward of the kingdom of God because they worshiped false gods.

They worshiped Baal. They did abominable things in the eyes of God and were unrepentant.

And so for that reason, they did not inherit the kingdom of God. And so, yeah, we read we read accounts all through scriptures of people who would not inherit the kingdom of God, and yet their names are given.

So why this rich man's name is not given? Well, the answer is actually provided for us at the end of the story.

He said to them, if they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.

In other words, we're not meant to know who this rich man's brothers are. I believe that the omission of the rich man's name is another evidence that this story is true, lest someone should run to his family and say, hey, guess what

Jesus is saying about this member of your family, thus distracting from the point of the story, which is that if they listen to Moses and the prophets, they will know who

Jesus is because they don't listen to Moses and the prophets. Neither will they believe

Christ once he rises from the dead. So that's the point. But nonetheless,

I do believe that that this is an actual story. I believe that Calvin is correct in his commentary.

Although brief, although brief. Right. Thank you, Michael. And there are many other commentators who have said something similar.

So I'm not alone in that. I can't throw you a name right now. But many scholars that I've read on this particular story will say that it is indeed a story and not a parable.

But thank you for your question, Michael. That was a great inquiry, especially since earlier this week.

I mentioned this story when we were going through. I noticed that. Second Thessalonians. Yeah. What was my context?

Do you remember? It had something to do. Was it on Tuesday? I remembered it earlier. Oh, no,

I think it was. I think it was Wednesday because I was talking about those who are in hell will be angry at God forever.

There is no repentance in hell because repentance is granted by God, as we read about, like in Second Timothy chapter two.

So because the rich man wasn't repentant. Right. He just wanted help. You do not see the rich man repenting in this story.

He's just asking for relief. And he's asking for somebody to go to his brothers and warn them of this awful place.

But there's no remorse for what it is that he has done. He's not even asking to be able to go back and change what it is that he has done.

He's just asking for his tongue to be cooled and somebody to witness to his brothers. So those who are in hell are hating

God forever. There's not a repentant attitude. Oh, if I had only done this, then I would not be here.

But again, this is with that understanding that God is the one who grants repentance. And since repentance is not granted in hell, then nobody has a repentant heart.

And so let us now preach the message of repentance so that people would hear the gospel and know that this is the opportunity that they have to turn from their sin and follow

Christ. And if they do that, they will be saved on the day of judgment. They will stand before God as righteous because of the righteousness of Christ.

Amen. If you have questions that you would like to submit to the broadcast, our email address is when we understand the text at gmail .com.

But congratulations. Yes. Coming back once again to Michael and Celia, congratulations on your marriage.

And have a great day. Yeah. And thank you for that email. It's just fantastic. That's awesome.

To hear from somebody who's getting married today. And we get to announce that on the podcast.

That's fantastic. I hope that's not a spoiler. No, he asked. In the

PS to the email, he asked if I would do a shout out for their wedding. You guys are going to go elope and surprise everybody.

No, this is an actual wedding that they're putting on. That's awesome. I'm guessing. Have fun. Anyway. Yeah. Because I did the thing with Paul Horn a few weeks ago where I start reading the email and oh,

I wasn't supposed to read this on the broadcast. Yeah. Anyway, this one I actually read all the way through, even through the

PS. I'm so proud of you. Hey, let's pray and then we'll be done.

Our Lord, we thank you for this time together in your word and the things that you have taught us. And thank you for giving us eyes to see and ears to hear.

And may we continue to long for this word and grow in this word, in knowledge and in understanding of our great

King, who has saved us from death and delivered us into your eternal, imperishable kingdom.

Come quickly, Lord Jesus, put an end to all evil. Rescue your saints that we may live forever with you in glory.

And we pray these things in Jesus name. Amen. You're listening to When We Understand The Text, a daily

Bible teaching podcast. Bible teaching. Yeah. Thank you. A little more spunky. Well, I know

I'm trying to read through it too. You've changed it. And this is further away from me.

It's because your chair isn't where it usually is. Well, that too. Because I have a Jesus calling book in the way.

Well, kick it out of the way. I have two of them. It's dumb. In the way. It's a terrible book.

You can kick it. This isn't like a Bible. These are not actually the words of Jesus. But if I were to do what

I wanted to do, I would have been tipping over. You are listening to When We Understand The Text, a daily

Bible teaching podcast. Monday to Wednesday. Monday to Wednesday. Monday to Wednesday.

Monday to Wednesday is a New Testament study, an Old Testament book on Thursday, and a new...

You distracted me. What did I do? You...

I figured there wasn't really any reason to contain it, because you were going to start over again. Oh, thanks.

For the vote of confidence. Well... Don't... Aren't you just reading through it right now?

How many Jesus calling books are you going to give me? As many as you have in here. Good grace.

Well, there are so many different editions. Right. Right. Right. I think you have a problem.