Interview with David Buboltz

Hello, this is Truth and Love. I'm thankful that you decided to watch the video and join us for this occasion. I hope this video will encourage you and will spur you on for gospel ministry, for sharing the gospel, for many other gospel-related issues, especially the topic that we're going to talk about tonight.

Jesus Is King in Every Realm of Life

I have a very, very special guest, a gentleman that I have met recently, and I was excited to meet and to know what he and his friends are doing. I'm excited to join him in the fight, join him in the, just meet another brother in Christ who is working for the Lord, acknowledging that Jesus is king, not just spiritually, but in all realms, all aspects of life.

And we are working for him, submitting to him, love him, and we want to share Jesus and his kingdom and how that manifests itself in all areas of life. And tonight we're going to be, I'm such in the habit of using, I keep wanting to say pro-life, and I've got to stop using that terminology, but we're going to be, I'm trying to frame, and maybe you can help me, David, on how to frame what I want to say, but the issue that we're going to be talking about is, I keep thinking about anti-abortion, the life issue, that's what we're going to be talking about tonight.

And I am joined by a very special person, David Bubuls, and you'll get to know why I think that he's a very special person later on in the interview. So without any further ado, let's jump right in. And David, would you give just a, take just a moment and introduce yourself, let us know who you are.

First of all, if I'm special in any way, it's only because God used us. I mean, literally I should be dead. And God, I mean, God just uses us in ways that's great. It's great to be a part of, you know, that God would, what a privilege, I guess, that God would use us.

So, yeah, so basically I'm David Bubuls. I'm a Christian. I would say I was, I always knew the Sunday school answer, but I would say maybe, you know, seven, 10 years ago, there's probably a period of a couple of years where, you know, cause I already knew that Jesus was the answer since I was a kid.

So it wasn't so radically transformative, but it was certainly a season of time when I got saved. And then, yeah, that's, that's me. I'm a Christian. I'm a husband, a father of three, now three girls, now a fourth child.

Praise God. My wife's pregnant and a business owner. I was an engineer, had broke away from that and started some couple of small businesses, but that's just allowed me some good flexible time, which has really been a blessing for doing some ministry work.

The Scale of Abortion and Related Deaths in North Carolina

Well, just right off, right off the cuff to the best of your ability. I'm going to throw this question out at you. The, the abortion issue, the life issue. Why are you and I having this conversation right now?

It's, I mean, look, there's 30 ,000 children that get killed in North Carolina every year. It's the leading cause of death. It dwarfs cancer. It dwarfs heart disease. It dwarfs any sort of car accidents or anything like that.

It certainly dwarfs COVID. And we act like it doesn't exist. I just, you know, and I'm, I'm really guilty of this too. It's like we, it's like we grew up, like we grew up in a place where Roe was essentially settled.

You know, that was before my time. And it's like, you grow up in a house full of filth and you don't realize it's dirty. And then you step outside and you get a breath of fresh air and you look and you're like, this is a pigsty.

And it's, it's, it's a major problem. And we've got a church on every street corner in America, really, certainly in North Carolina. And if you were to have a foreigner come to North Carolina, would they know that there's a genocide of children going on?

And I would venture to say no. Jeremiah says, you've healed the wounds of my people lightly and said, peace, peace, when there is no peace. You look outside and it's peaceful. It's relatively peaceful.

It does not look like the leading cause of death is murder of children in the womb. And, and there's no justice for them. So I think through that, you know, is, is God's really kind of now I believe wakening up the church and a lot of scales are coming off people's eyes.

And through that is how we connected. Absolutely. And I'm going to have you repeat that number because I don't want people to misunderstand that number that you gave is not in America. That's right. North Carolina.

Yeah. And, and it's, it's, it's even worse than that. And, you know, I even hate saying numbers because even one murder is in the womb is, is, is bad enough, but it's, I think the real, the, the, the statistic, the numbers somewhere around 28 or 29 ,000 surgical abortions that we know about.

So it's leaving a lot off the table when I even use the 30 ,000 number, because one, it's a cash-based business. I sell, I help people sell small businesses. We know what happens with cash-based businesses.

A lot of that's underreported. Two, a lot of chemical abortions are not reported. Three, we have plan B, which is over the counter at every CVS, Walgreens, and Walmart, completely no statistics on that.

We've got IVF, which is in vitro fertilization where, you know, they'll take, you know, maybe 20 embryos and fertilize them all. They will grade them. And some of them are deemed not strong enough. And so they discard them and basically kill them, let them die.

And then they'll implant some of those in the womb. And then they'll freeze a smaller subsection of them in cryogenic prison. So for every IVF child born, there's about 20 human lives destroyed in that process.

And then we've got hormonal birth control, which is rampant in the church. It isn't abort efficient. It's a mechanism of action to thin the lining of the uterus. And so eggs will sometimes, you know, get implanted, will conceive and sperm and egg come together.

We have fertilization, we have conception. And as it's traveling down the fallopian tube and goes to implant into the uterus, into the womb, the womb has been largely chemically poisoned to be too thin to accept implantation.

And the medical industry has defined implantation is when pregnancy starts. So they'll say hormonal birth control does not terminate a pregnancy, but it does terminate a human life. So you add all that on top of the 30 ,000 surgical number, I don't know where we're at, but it could be 100 ,000 could be 200 ,000.

And it's just, it gets it. And that's just North Carolina. We're getting to the point where numbers are too big to even like rationally make sense of, right. You know, like what's the difference between a billion and a trillion.

It's a big gap, but it's hard to conceptualize that. And so we're getting, we're into those numbers with genocide. Yeah. I'm glad you give us the, all that additional information because that can be very eye opening and helpful for people because I'm going to use the word callous, as you described the situation that we're in this, this is how things have always been.

So we're callous. And so I think our minds go to, we think of three things, you know, we've all heard of Roe versus Wade. We've all heard the term abortion and we think of Planned Parenthood, but you just opened our eyes to all these other many ways where we in lives, in the life of new persons.

And so I'm praying that, you know, this information is going to open up eyes and people will see the severity. And like you said, we don't want to, we don't want to minimize the fact that we lose one person.

Yeah. But boy, you know, when you get up into the thousands and hundreds of thousands, if not more, that's incredibly sad. Yeah. And, and, you know, I've found that sometimes the IVF and hormonal birth control issue is harder for Christians to, to take or to take seriously.

And maybe that's because we're involved in it more, you know, like sometimes when we've got to really take some hard looks at ourselves and our own lives and our own actions in the past, it's, it's, it's easy to say, well, I never killed a child in abortion before.

But then when we start saying all these other things, you know, like maybe I have killed a child through hormonal birth control, you know, and at best, at best, it's manslaughter. You know, I should have known, I should have done my research to not put these chemicals in my wife's body.

You know, I should have known this, but I didn't. And it caused a life that it's manslaughter, but at worst it's, it is murder on, on your heart. And, and everyone kind of has a crossroads where especially hormonal birth control is really kind of covered up and people don't like to talk about it.

And they obviously, obviously skate this, you know, with different words, how, like we're talking about how they redefine pregnancy to mean implantation, not fertilization. And, um, but now, now that someone knows there's a choice that they got to make, you know, we can say I was ignorant, um, before I shouldn't have been, I'll still, I'll still responsible for what I did, but you know what, there was a level of ignorance there.

But now that, now that I know there's a crossroads and people either harden or they soften, you know, it's just like, it's just like a gut, like the gospel, you know, people either harden or soft, soften to the gospel.

And, and it's the same thing here. And so I really, really pray that the church wakens up to this and softens the heart and has compassion on our own children who are dying in our, literally in our church pews.

You know, you go to a church and there's a couple hundred people standing, giving praises to God. And if one quarter of those women are on birth control, there's children dying in those pews while we're singing praises to Jesus.

And, and it's, you know, I have, I don't exactly know where I stand, um, on the spiritual realm, like, but I think that there's actually, you know, a spiritual component to all of this, which is aiding to the scales on the church's eyes.

When we have bloodshed, even unintentionally or unknowingly in our churches, it can cloud, there can be a spiritual haze to that because that blood guilt is still there, whether we recognize it or not.

And, um, so I think that's all a huge component of it. Absolutely. So we're coming up on 50 years, the 50th anniversary of Roe versus Wade. So describe to us the churches, the Christian strategy that you've seen from then until now, the most popular strategy.

Compromise Before and After Roe v. Wade

Well, you got to go all the way back to before Roe v. Wade, um, you know, and I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus here, but it's important to put all this in context is, you know, even people like Billy Graham was saying, Hey, look, we, in some cases of rape and incest, abortion is okay.

And this is a couple of years before Roe. So the, the, the groundwork was already, the compromise was already there in the church and in the house of God before Roe was overturned. Um, so I think it's important to know that, that like we, God's church laid the groundwork of compromise and Roe followed after that.

And, and so that's why it's so important when, when we're really big sticklers as abolitionists to say no exceptions, none, God did not say that because we got here by people like Billy Graham saying, well, maybe we should have some exceptions and that's, that's the sin.

Like, that's how the devil works. He gets you by just putting your foot into sin, you know, just put your foot in the water and then, and then, and then you just start to, it starts to snowball. So we gotta be hypersensitive to, to those exceptions.

And so the response of the church, um, you know, I don't have a lot of good foresight back then cause I wasn't alive. Um, but there never was an immediate call to repentance from our nation. Like, I mean, there was still probably, you know, a way majority of the population even then was, or even more so would be called Christians.

And we can't, there's no, where's the, where's the moral outrage? You know, I wasn't alive there, but I just feel like if they wouldn't have compromised from the get go, we wouldn't be here today. And the strategy for the last five decades has been, let's just minimize and reduce the number of children killed, or at least attempt to reduce the number of children killed and ease our way out of this, incrementally get ourselves out of this sin.

And that's not what God says. Like God says, do not murder. He doesn't say do not murder unless they're 20 weeks old. And so we don't treat any other sin this way. And like, we know this as Christians that we don't treat sin this way.

Imagine like if you were a Christian counselor and you're counseling a guy who is in adultery and you said, Hey, look, you're sleeping with this woman seven days a week. You need to slowly get out of it.

Let's try to bring it down to five days a week and then one days a week, and then some phone calls and emails. And then maybe once a year you could do some long walks on the beach together. It's like, no, that's not how you treat sin.

The only answer to that is immediate stopping of that sin and immediate repentance. You know, and so we know this, we know this, if it's cases of rape or pedophile or any of that, we treat it that way.

But for some reason, when it comes to killing children in the womb, we do want to slowly reduce it and get our way out. And that's been the strategy for the past five decades. And, you know, look, National Right to Life spent 15 years and basically a quarter billion dollars to get partial birth abortion done on a federal level.

And it didn't affect anything. It didn't affect one child. It affected the baby's positioning by four inches, and that child still dies. And it didn't save one life. And so what were we fighting for? You know, and by the way, a partial birth abortion is like such a sliver of the abortions that happen.

You know, it's not even fighting the battle. And we celebrate that, right? I mean, everyone celebrates it. We high five each other. We say, good job. We're winning the battle. We're winning. And the whole pro-life community establishment, when I would say the pro-life movement, it can largely be a business.

And you need those victories. And you need to rah-rah. We're winning. You know, we got them on the run. And we're causing more abortions than ever. We really are. And some people will say that we are making ground because there's certain cases where abortion numbers have stagnated or gone down a little bit.

But the reality is we're killing children earlier and more efficient than ever before. Like how we first started talking about that 30 ,000 number is surgical abortions, right? So if we kill more children through hormonal birth control and Plan B and chemical birth, chemical abortions earlier, they don't hit that statistic.

So we're not winning, right? And five decades later, where are we? And here's a doozy for you too. Five decades later, it's still legal for a woman to kill her own child at any stage up until birth on her own in every state.

So people like to say you can't have abortion after 20 weeks in North Carolina. No, an abortionist can't perform an abortion after 20 weeks. But there's no exception. There's no restrictions for the mother herself.

And as technology advances, DIY abortions are becoming a reality. Like when I first started to get into the battle, I used to think being at the clinic was the battle. Now it's certainly a big part of the battle and an important part of the battle.

So I do not want to minimize that with this statement at all. But I thought that was the battle, but it's actually a sliver of the battle. And we need to think comprehensively. And the way things are going, abortion clinics will be out of business.

Not because we're not killing children, but because technology will have advanced to the point where they're no longer necessary, but we'll be killing more children than ever. And so I think it was in Tennessee that an abortion clinic burned down.

And some may cheer for that, but you're informing us, you're educating us that there are so many other means now that we are killing children that we're not going to need those clinics anymore. They do abortions in hospitals.

Yeah. And you were talking about compromise, and it made me think about how we discuss often one of Satan's greatest strategies, which is to question God's word. Going back to the garden, did God really say?

And so we fall for that temptation, and then at least this compromise. And as you were talking, I couldn't help but think about the interview that I listened to you and your fellow abolitionist, Wayne, did on another podcast.

And what he said, one of the approaches that you guys have when you have conversations with folks, when you go talk to senators or whatever, it was the simple comment, who, how did he say it? Basically, who are you accountable to?

You're accountable to God. And so when you mentioned the name Billy Graham, I'm thinking about how, I think it takes a lot of courage to mention a name like that because you could get a lot of backlash from people in the church because he's such a hero of the faith.

But when there's compromise, there's compromise. And you've got to ask yourself, who am I accountable to? Am I accountable to, do I have a fear of God or fear of man? Am I going to be afraid of the backlash being less popular because I called out compromise or am I going to understand that I'm accountable to God and take on the possible backlash from speaking out on compromise?

And so I applaud you for that. And I think everybody needs to step back and realize that we should have a fear of God instead of fear of man. Yeah. And it's really hard, especially people in the pro-life community who are leaders in the pro-life community and pastors, because if we've been leading the church for a long time, you've probably largely pushed these sinful compromised ideas.

And it's hard. It's really hard. I know this because I'm a human being too. When we're pushed for something and led people in a direction, and now we're being told that's sin, it takes a lot to go back and say, wow, I was wrong.

I repent of that. And there's a tendency to just hang on to your flesh and dig your heels in and plug your ears and just keep on trucking. But the scorecard's not written here on earth, like you're saying.

God's watching all of this. But you know what? There's no condemnation in Christ. That's the thing. Do we really believe the gospel? I know a God who forgives murderers. I do. And he certainly will forgive us for pro-life compromise and pro-life apathy, but it takes repentance and it takes turning away from that.

And you know what? Every time, my own life and other examples, it's like when there's repentance, God is so merciful. And we think that it's going to hurt us to repent. And we think that it's going to degrade everything we've worked for.

But God's so merciful that he oftentimes blesses that. And you find yourselves on the backside of repentance and restoration. And it's a beautiful, wonderful thing. So if someone's listened to this and they haven't really, you know, and we're saying things that, look, the pro-life community is in sin.

And that's hard. Look, there's, we can turn from this and get back on track. And you've kind of answered the next question of how has that worked? And you definitely answered that question. We're killing more.

We're doing it more officially. And the strategy has not worked. No. And so that, and you talked about how the part of that strategy is the legislation part of it. And how that legislation part of it is not working.

And you use the terms incrementalism and regulation. And so what do you believe about this strategy of incrementalism and regulation? Yeah. Legislation. Yep. Let me, and let me go back to one point. You said it largely hasn't worked.

And you're right. It hasn't. But we got to not fall into the trap of what works and what doesn't work. We have to, we have to always ask ourselves, what does God say? Right. And what does God want us to do?

And we follow that. And the results are up to God. I'm reformed. I believe you're reformed also, you know, God changes the hearts and minds of people. Right. And, and, but the call was given to us sovereignly to be a prophetic message, to, to disciple the nations, to, to, to make an accurate call of what God, accurate proclamation of what God says.

And the results are up to him. So I do believe that if we, if we act biblically, it will be better and babies will be saved. But even if they, if they weren't, we would have to do what God says over that.

I'm talking to a lot of pro-lifers and they say, Dave, we're on the same team. You know, we all want the same thing. I said, what's that? Well, we all want to save babies. Well, no, see, we, we got us, we got to focus on what honors God first.

And if we're compromising on what God says to save babies, we're never going to be in a good spot. Right. So that was that point. But I really believe that if we do what God says, it actually will save more and more children.

Absolutely. And, and if I could make a point before you get to the legislation part of it, you know, you're making me think about going to Matthew chapter 28. And for so long, you know, we call it the great commission.

And for so long, we, we think that is solely evangelism. It's an evangelistic message, but Jesus says all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth. Therefore go make disciples and teach them all that I've commanded you and teaching them all that he's commanded includes this.

So it's, it is evangelistic. It is gospel messages. It's gospel spreading, but it's also his teaching, making them disciples. And this is part of it and not compromising on that message. Yep. That's right.

And I think that's largely where, you know, going into legislation here is where the church has kind of fall, fell short. There's, there's a real tendency to be pietistic, meaning like, Hey, look, I got an, I got to know I got to do what's right in my life and the world's the world's going to be the world.

And as long as me and my family are doing the right thing, you know, but we're not taking the gospel to the culture at that point, you know, like, like the gospel applies and God's law applies to the legislature as much as it does my personal life.

And so exactly what you're saying. I know a guy first heard it from a guy in Virginia, Jason Garwood. He says all of Christ for all of life. Right. And I think about that often it's yes, we do need to be pious and have internal holiness and strive for that, but don't have a truncated gospel because if you leave it at that, that's half, that's, that's only part of the equation.

The other part of the equation is we've got to disciple the nations, right? Like, so yeah, so, so to legislation, the way that, you know, politicians have, have fought this is incrementalism, which is slowly chipping away and say, trying to save more and more children as we go.

But at each one of those terms, it is compromised. Like in, in, in North Carolina, the easy example is you can't kill a child over 20 weeks, over 20 weeks old. Well, literally written into law, it says you can kill a child under 20 weeks old.

So that piece of pro life legislation quite literally writes into law when and where and how you can kill a child, you know, or you got to wait 72 hours after counseling. Okay. Or, you know, people want to push ultrasound long.

So you have to have an ultrasound done. Okay. You're just putting stipulations of when and where and how you can kill a child and new splash here. A lot of pro boards sometimes think there should be restrictions on it too.

So not all pro boards are like want full fledged abortion. So like in, in how it actually plays out is pro aborts and pro lifers are both pro choice. Like they're both dictating when and where and how you can kill a child.

The debate could be where on that scale you want to slide this thing. Right. But there's actually some overlap. There really is. There, there would be some pro pro pro choicers who would be okay with, you know, not killing a child over 20 weeks.

Cause they would say, Hey, look, like, like, you know, if you're pregnant at that time and make a decision, whether you kill a child or not, and that's in accordance with pro life legislation that's been passed.

So there is an overlap there and it's all pro choice. So God says, thou shall not murder. It's really that simple. And that's how we need to treat it. Are these children really human beings? And if so, we have to treat them like that.

That's it. It's really that simple. And, and that's our responsibility. And, you know, the, the, the politicians have been pushing this. And I used to think that the politicians were the, were kind of the slimy ones, you know, and they are, but ultimately they're giving us what we want.

They, they will, they want to get reelected. They, they will give us what we demand of them. It's like, I used to, I used to feel bad that like the people who'd go to like, you know, Joel Osteen's church or whatever, apostate preacher, I used to feel bad for that congregation.

Like, look, they're being duped. No, they wanted that. That's what they want. They sought it out. And he is just their judgment on their own desires. Right. And the same thing happens with politicians.

So they're giving us what we want. It's easy to say, Oh, these politicians aren't doing the right thing. Well, you know what? It's our fault. It's, it's our, it's our fault because we desired that as a church, we demanded that them to do that as a church.

And they gave us what we demanded. And so this whole thing starts with the house of God. We need repentance with us first. And then just maybe God would save us. And I mean, the mercies of God are unspeakable and unknowable.

And I, you know, sometimes I get all pessimistic of everything and I would just, God's way more merciful than I could ever imagine this. We just repent of this compromise. I mean, who's to say God wouldn't restore us?

He doesn't have to. He certainly doesn't have to. But so, so, so the strategy needs to be just stand on God's word. God doesn't have exceptions on, on don't kill children. Like children of rape, of rape and incest are created in the image of God too.

And we have no right to kill them. They didn't do anything wrong. They, they don't deserve death. Children who are disabled are created in the image of God too. Life of the mother stuff. I'm just, you take it where you want, but there's life of the mother stuff.

That's, that's another big exception that's, has been rampant in the pro-life community. Luckily, some of these exceptions are getting backed down on because of abolition. But life of the mother is a big one too.

Like, okay, like what if, what, what if the mother's life's in jeopardy? And well, yeah, triage laws exist already. You know, like if you have a doctor and you only have so many medical supplies or resources and you've got two patients, you have to make medical decisions about who's getting the hospital bed.

If you only have one hospital bed and you got five patients, you do the best you can to save everybody, right? If you're limited by resources, you just do the best you can. And that's the same thing with the life of the mother.

You just do the best you can. And the reality with life of mother exceptions is if we can keep that child in the womb longer and longer and longer, they have a better and better chance of survival. There's, there's been a number of children, I think, who have been born below 22 weeks, I think, and are alive today.

And most of the complications in life of the mother situations don't happen until later in pregnancy. So keep that child in the womb as long as you can. Keep the woman in the hospital if you have to, monitor her, get monitor 24 -7 if you have to, you know.

And then if you have to have an emergency c-section or whatever, because the mother's dying, you can try to save that child and the mother at the same time. And even, I even think it should go further than that.

I don't know if you can put this into law, but look, as mothers and fathers, I mean, we're supposed to sacrifice for our children, like God gave us these children to raise. And, you know, I hope God never puts me in this position, but if it's between me and my child, what's the right, what's the answer?

I'm the father, you know, and I would never want to sacrifice my own child for my own life. And, and that's, that's a tough, that's a tough one. But, you know, I mean, imagine you were like in a train tunnel with your two-year-old and the trains come in and you have to run really fast to get out of the train tunnel.

And you realize the only way to make it out alive is to ditch your child and run faster. What do you do? No, you hang on to that child and you run as fast as you can. And maybe there's a one in a million chance that you make it out alive when you take that one in a million chance, you know?

And so like, if you have an illness and you're pregnant and there's a life of the mother issue, do you ditch that child in the train tunnel or not? You just fight it out, fight, fight, fight. And it's not like God doesn't make miracles, right?

That's right. So, so that, those are, those are two exceptions. You know, we can, we can keep going, but there's, there should be no exceptions because God doesn't accept those. God doesn't allow us to have those exceptions.

From Pro-Life to Abolitionism

Right. I want to go back to one point that you made, and I think that will transition us very well into the next question. So let's say many Christians were like me and we know, and we believe that abortion is wrong.

Abortion is murder. So we're going to, we're going to reach out and hang on and claim the only label that we we've heard, the only label that's taught to us. And that is that pro-life label. And so that's what we're taught.

That's what we hear. And that's what we hang on to is because that's how we've been taught. So there we are in that position now. That's why I think what you said was so informative and educational for us.

We dove into the other side of being pro-life and you talked about how being pro-life has a side of pro-choice in it. And so we need to open our eyes to the reality that pro-life is not really as pro-life anti-abortion as we maybe once thought.

And I hope this will open up eyes and be very educational for folks. And so that transitions me to the next question I have for you, because we've used the term, which was new to me in this realm at some point.

So I'm going to make the assumption that you were like many of us at one point, because you were against abortion, you were pro-life, but you've made a transition to what we're calling an abolitionist.

So is that true? And how did you make that transition? And what is an abolitionist? That's a good question. I think, well, there's a whole backstory about how I even realized that there was a genocide going on and that's a crazy story in its own right.

Long story short, I was in Liberia during the Ebola crisis and we were talking to former warlords and child soldiers who would commit child sacrifice, zero to three years old. They'd sacrifice these children to demons.

It's the heart of witchcraft, West Africa. And God redeemed them, saved them, a number of them. They're doing great work of rehabilitating child soldiers. But it really opened my eyes to the, you know, look, the demons that ancient Israel, that they're sacrificing these children to, you know, on the statues of Baal, are still around.

Like they're not in the pit of hell yet. They're still here. And these children are still being sacrificed to them. And if they were in West Africa and they are here, and that's a tough one. So I came back from that trip.

I don't want to go into that side story, but I came back from that trip thinking, wow, we're in trouble here. Like this is really, really serious. And God hates this. And this is child sacrifice. And God hears every drop of spilt blood of these children who are being killed here in America, and there will be justice for them.

And every nation that has killed its own child has been utterly destroyed. And why are we any different? And so I started looking around, like in West Africa, that country hasn't had running water or electricity in 20 years.

And one of the child soldiers said, look, we killed a lot of children and God killed one third of our population and destroyed our nation, but we don't kill children anymore. Praise God. And the spirit, God's spirit was like, wow, what am I doing here?

Like, God brought me here to hear that because we're going to be destroyed. Like, what am I doing? This is our mission field. We're the ones in trouble. And so what did I do? I went to, started going to the clinic and, you know, and I just didn't know what to do, but, you know, saying, hey, I felt, I was still thinking that women were victims in all of this.

And, you know, that's a narrative that the pro-life industry has pushed, which is a false narrative that women are victims. And I saw that firsthand where I would say, what do you need? Do you need money?

Do you need a place to stay? Do you need a job? Do you need support? Do you need clothes? Like you name it, like literal blank check. And I saw 850 babies dead. You know, we can adopt your baby. We can do all this.

No, I'm here to kill my child. You hear that enough times, start to realize, you know what, it's not about money. It's not about resources. It's that people were intent to murder. And I saw that firsthand.

And so it took me like a year to come to that conclusion. And then you realize it's a gospel issue. It's a heart issue. It's not a material issue. And so you preach the gospel when you're at the clinic.

Like, look, you got murder on your heart. There's, you're going to be held accountable for this. I know a God who forgives murderers. So repent of that. And God will restore you. Like it's, it's a simple message, but it's a great one.