Mormon Defends Salvation By Works

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00:18

Hey elders, have you ever seen any of Joseph Smith's false prophecies? I have never done that. Do you want to come take a look?

00:24

I'll show you a few. Well, I have a book of his true prophecies. Do you know that the Bible says in Deuteronomy 18, verses 20 -22, that if you have a single false prophecy, you're considered a false prophet?

00:36

Jeremiah also taught that, yeah. So do you want to take a moment with me and maybe go through a few and ask some questions about that?

00:43

We need to leave right now. Okay. Where are you guys from? I'm from Virginia. Where in Virginia? Gainesville.

00:49

Gainesville. All right, right on. Yeah, I lived right north of Virginia for a long time. Where were you from? I'm from West Virginia. West Virginia. Whoa.

00:55

All right. Well, if you get a chance, I'd love to talk to you guys. You guys really should take this. Oh, thanks.

01:01

I'll take some of your literature, you take some of mine. What do you say? I would love to. Let me see if I can find an

01:08

English one or a Spanish one. Oh, are you? Okay. Here it is. All right.

01:14

We'll switch. You take that. I'll take that. Would you like to go? Fantastic. Add some videos on it on how to get peace.

01:21

Well, there's not much on there. Okay, well. It's a link. Take a look at some of those, guys. Go through the scriptures.

01:26

Test them. God commands you to test all things. Hold fast to that which is true. Of course. Thank you. It's a good thing. Absolutely. It's all a good deal.

01:33

Do I? That's a good compliment. Thank you, man. Thank you very, very much. Have a good night.

01:39

You, too. What if somebody else says there's a standard on who to have conscience?

01:51

Their conscience tells them, and there are people that do tell us that their conscience tells them that some things that we call evil are good.

01:58

The Bible tells us that, too. But that doesn't mean that they are. Exactly. The Bible tells us what the standard is.

02:04

God sets the standard for morality, not us. So if you say something's evil because you don't like it.

02:10

That's not morality. Are there things in the Bible that you don't like that God did? There are certain things that you can do. Are there things in the Bible that God did that you don't like?

02:18

Sure. Does that mean that they're evil? Uh, no. Okay, so then you're not the judge. What? So how can you keep standing here to say that God is, uh...

02:27

No, I said that the God that you believe in is evil. The God that we're describing is the God of the Bible. Because... You might say you don't like him.

02:33

We have the solution. We're citing scripture. We're citing scripture. When you take a situation like where he wipes out a generation of kids through the flood, all right, they have the chance to go to heaven and to start to learn about Jesus Christ.

02:52

I just wanted to let you guys know as you're watching this, uh, I'm... I don't know this whole crowd, so I don't know...

02:59

I can't condone everything that's happening here or what's being said. Just wanted to say that, so...

03:07

I'm just gonna... I'm gonna be... I'm gonna creep right now. That's what I'm gonna do. Can God...

03:22

Can God do that? Can God grant faith to a child? Can he do that? Or is that too hard? Did John have faith in Jesus Christ?

03:28

Can he do that? Did he have faith in Jesus Christ? Can we answer my question first? Did he actually... Can God...

03:34

We have to clarify the question. Can God grant faith to a child? We have to clarify the question that you're asking. Are you asking, did

03:39

John have the faith in Jesus Christ? I'm asking you specifically, John the Baptist was saved in the womb. You said Jesus had faith.

03:45

I'm asking you specifically, can God... He has got all powerful. Yes. Can he grant faith to a child, even a child?

03:55

Okay, depends on what your definition of faith is. No, it doesn't depend on anything. What's your definition of faith? Salvation, faith, saving, faith to a child.

04:00

Can he do that? Okay, so this child you're telling me has faith in Jesus Christ. Yes. Can a child have faith in Jesus Christ?

04:07

Can God grant faith to a child? No. Because... He can't do that. Okay, so he's not all powerful. Your God is limited.

04:13

You believe in a different God than the God of the Christians. We have a different God. His God has a body. He can only be in one spot at one time.

04:19

He's not omnipresent. We have a God that's so much more mighty. Your God is not omnipresent. And that's what you need to understand.

04:27

Okay, so the fact is that he doesn't have a body in me. A baby going to hell forever and ever is not from a good God. He knows it's from the womb.

04:33

You can try to quote scripture all day long. We have a sense of justice. We have a sense of what is good and evil.

04:41

You're right. You're not going off the Bible, though. You're going off your own fallen morality. Your own state of...

04:47

I'm going off what? Your own skewed views of what you think is right and wrong. I'm going off consequences. I urge you to go off of what God has told us is right and wrong.

04:53

If you look at consequences... Go off of what God... For every sin, there is a consequence of that sin.

04:59

That's your scripture again. That's your scripture. Yeah, because we have the answers. We know how to make

05:06

God good. Pardon me. Sorry. I was so proud of that. I thought we had all the answers, too, when I was a Mormon.

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But you know, the fact is, there's so many false prophecies, so many changes. So, you know, you don't understand the answers.

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But you don't have the answers. So many answers you don't. We have the answer that makes God good. It's the only answer that makes

05:23

God good. If you're submitting babies to torture forever and ever with no chance of reprieve...

05:31

First and foremost, you can't have a problem with babies dying and being tortured if you reject the objective standard of God's revelation.

05:40

So you're complaining about babies being tortured and dying, and you're acting like torture and dying is a bad thing. No, torture and dying is not.

05:48

And if torture and dying, being tortured and dying is a bad thing, we have to have some basis by which to measure whether or not it's actually true that being tortured and dying is a bad thing.

05:58

And I would submit to you that the only way you can actually say being tortured and dying is not good is if you have

06:04

God's revelation, God's own revelation, which came before Joseph's revelation.

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Now, what you're doing now is you're taking Joseph's revelation, and you're actually acting like that's the standard that God's word needs to be upheld to, when in reality it's the scriptures that are the revelation of God that you need to test

06:23

Joseph's revelation by. That's what really sickens me about mainstream

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Christianity is how they can try to justify... You don't believe that? You don't believe that scripture came before Joseph?

06:36

Sure can. How is that sickening? No, I'm saying that it's sickening that you can try to justify that. That's the only point

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I made. Even in an evil God. See, once again, you can't even talk about evil without God's revelation. Yes, you can.

06:47

No, otherwise you're a bag of meat bone protoplasm in a purposeless cosmos. If you're morally indignant about something calling it evil, you've got to give me a basis as to how

06:58

I know we're not just in a universe of time and chance acting on matter.

07:04

Because if I come to you right now as an atheist and I say, hey, my great grandparents were highly evolved societies of bacteria, we could just kerosene this entire anthill, it doesn't make a difference.

07:15

You're talking about things being good and evil. And I'm asking you by what standard is something good and evil?

07:21

Okay. Did God create a good world? According to the scriptures? Yes, he did. Not according to the scriptures.

07:28

Did God create a good world? I wouldn't be able to answer that question without the scriptures, without God's own self -disclosure.

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Can you not look at the world and think that it's good? No, there's lots of atheists that look at the world and they say kerosene the whole anthill.

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There's atheists in the world that say all we are are bipedal protoplasm with no justice ahead of us, only sky.

07:47

Okay, what you're talking about is mankind. I said did God create the world?

07:53

According to God's own revelation, yes, he did. So with these people who want to torch the whole anthill, as you call it, would they not think that the creation is good?

08:02

No, no, because I'm talking about you're saying something is good, something is evil. I'm saying there are atheists who would argue with you and they would say according to their own reason, they would say all we are are descendants of fish.

08:13

I'm not talking about man, I'm talking about our world. Yeah, it's another random result of evolutionary processes according to the atheists.

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And they would say to you there's no objective standard of evil. No, no, I'm pointing out to you that you're using a standard.

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I'm using the standard of God's creation. And where would you get the idea that it's

08:36

God's creation? That's the question. Because atheism is a false religion and you can prove it scientifically.

08:42

Okay, and I'm saying that using your... I can tell you haven't been on the website yet. Using Mormonism and Joseph Smith's revelation as the principium, as the reference point,

08:55

I'm saying that it's inherently contradictory and self -refuting. And if you're using

09:01

Joseph's revelation as the ultimate standard as to what is good, then I'm saying that your world view collapses.

09:07

You have to have God's revelation. I'm using the standard of the world. The world, so the atoms that are banging around?

09:17

The atoms that are banging around? The beautiful nature of our world that we live on.

09:23

Who says it's beautiful? Where do you get that standard? That's the standard. Listen, if you and I are descendants of bacteria, then nothing is beautiful, nothing is true, nothing is good.

09:34

All we are is meat bone protoplasm. If you reject God's revelation... Which can be refuted, scientifically.

09:40

Well, I'm saying the atheists can be refuted, yes. So what we have to look at is, okay, it's not a question of if there is a

09:49

God, it's a question of what kind of God it is. Or what kind of creator created us, created this world.

09:55

The world was perfect at one time, and evil perfect. It fell, the world was messed up in the flood.

10:00

I think you missed my point, is the main thing. I'm talking about what do we stand on to know whether something is good or just, right?

10:08

You're saying we ought to, you're saying, well, atheists stand on their world, and they have arbitrary standards, they have no justification to be morally indignant about anything, they believe their ancestors were fish.

10:19

I'm saying you're in just as much an arbitrary position as the atheists because you reject God's revelation.

10:25

No. Yes, you've chosen Joseph's revelation and his standards above God's. What I'm saying is that we also have a...

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Do you need to get through? No? Okay. We also have the ability to...

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a conscience. God created us in his image, so we have the ability ourselves to understand right from wrong.

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And the only way you can believe that... Now, they might say that, well, it's because it's...

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I'm using the Bible because it does justify good.

10:56

I mean, it does. Excellent. But the problem is that you're also trying to justify it for evil. No, no, no. My point is that you can only know that something is truly good or evil if you have

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God's own character by which to measure it. You're using Joseph's revelation as the standard.

11:12

No, I agree with that. Well, you already said that the biblical descriptions of God and his actions in the world is evil.

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And you believe that based upon Joseph's revelation. But the word of God came first.

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You are saying that the God of the Bible is an evil moral monster.

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Yes. And the reason you believe that is because you reject God's own word and you opt to take

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Joseph as the standard. If you look at atheism, okay, that's one of the reasons why they reject

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Christianity completely is because they believe that any person or any justice system that would send a child to...

11:52

Let me, let me, yeah. That would send a baby to hell forever and ever and ever. Yeah. They don't believe that that's a good

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God. So even atheists can see through the facade that you guys are trying to portray. Two things.

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One, again, you're demonstrating you're not using the Bible as your standard because Romans chapter 1 does not say...

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Can I finish? Romans chapter 1 does not say that atheists reject God because they think somehow He doesn't do things the way that they're supposed to be done.

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It says that they know Him, but they suppress the truth about Him in unrighteousness. They don't want

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God in their knowledge. They become fools and they switch Him for an idol. So the reason is not that they see

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God as a moral failure. It's that they hate Him. Right. And the second thing is, is the atheist who complains against the

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God of the Bible has no justification that satisfies the preconditions of intelligibility to make sense of a moral complaint.

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The atheist believes that his ancestors were highly evolved societies of bacteria. Yep. So he has no ability, being protoplasm in a cosmos that doesn't care, to complain about God's cruelties.

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So what he has, then, is he has a conscience that he's denying. All right? Yes. Now, how do you know that?

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You can determine it logically as well as biblically. He says he uses logic and reason as his standard, and he says that he rejects what you say.

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Okay, so the thing is that you can use the Bible as the Word of God says he has a conscience, and that God's law is written in his heart.

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Right. There you go. So in this case, you see that the standard you'd have to use to know the atheist has a conscience is not reason and logic, because the atheist says he's using it, and he doesn't have what you say he has.

13:34

Okay? But when you use the Word of God, you recognize, as much as I do, that God's revelation is the supreme revelation, and if he says his law is in their heart, it's in their heart.

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But see, here's what's amazing. That's right. And God says that he gives them his law in their hearts, Romans chapter 2.

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But what's amazing here, and what you need to see, and I hope you finally embrace, by the grace of God, is that you're using

13:58

Joseph's standard to judge God. I understand what you're saying, but when you take a little child, when you take a baby, okay, they don't have the ability to determine right from wrong.

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They do not have a conscience, or at least understand their conscience. They just, there's, the comprehension and the intelligence is not there yet.

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It has to be a learned response. Now, to judge and to send that baby to hell, forever, based on that standard, is not a good

14:28

God. It's not a fair God. It's not a just God. Okay, first of all, you have no standards of justice outside of the

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God of the Bible. You have no meaningful standards of justice outside of the God of the Bible. No, you can't. But Buddhism talks about...

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No, they talk about it. They can't justify it. They can. They can't justify it. They can. Well, no, because if you take, essentially,

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Buddhist or Hindu worldview, all of reality is illusion, because we're all one.

14:50

Right. And there are no distinctions. So here's the thing. If you take that essential... They might not accept their goodness.

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No, their justification is foolishness, and it falls apart.

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Because watch, if all is illusion and there are no distinctions, right, and all of us are ultimately moving on towards the vast sea of oneness, which is nirvana, right, and all is one and there are no distinctions, then there's no such thing as a distinction between evil and good.

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All is one. And there's no difference between your thoughts and my thoughts, because all is one.

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It's an inherently self -contradictory system. I think you're missing the...

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what actually moves a person from the samsara reincarnation cycle into nirvana, or into moksha.

15:37

No, no, no, you're missing the fundamental point. I'm already there. I'm already in nirvana, because all is one and there are no distinctions.

15:45

So, essentially, Hinduism collapses the moment it starts speaking. So, you can't be a person who is essentially a part of that worldview and have distinctions like right and wrong, just and unjust, because all is one, there are no distinctions.

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So, when you say, the Buddhist believes in justice, he sure does, because he's in the image of God and it's inescapable, it's written on his heart.

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But his system can't account for it. However, they still justify it with their own... They attempt to, and it's a foolish justification.

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Okay, whether it's foolish or not, you accept it... There you go. So, the point is...

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This is my point, if you reject God's revelation, you're reduced to absolute futility and foolishness.

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Hindus are, Jehovah's Witnesses are, and Mormons are, because you reject

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God's revelation. That would be true if God were evil and wanted to just punish everybody, is what you're saying, because...

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I'm sorry I missed that. Hindus are not saved. They know God and they suppress the truth about God.

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Jehovah's Witnesses are not saved. Right, and we all deserve hell. No, we don't. There you go. So, you disagree with the scriptures when the

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Bible says clearly, whoever has the son has the life, whoever does not have the son does not have the life, but the wrath of God abides in him.

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What you're looking at is the black and white definition of heaven and hell. I talked about sin just now.

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I'm talking about salvation. Okay, and we're talking about condemnation, and we're all worthy of condemnation.

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Not through Jesus Christ, because he did away with that. Romans 1. He fixed the problem. Except that the

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Bible teaches that there are people who end up in hell. Yes, they will. Okay, so there are people who are condemned.

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There is a judgment. And what does the Bible say? The only way to make it good is to take that judgment out of his hands and put it in the hands of man.

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But the Bible says... Because he has the choice. You're using Joseph's revelation once again, not Scripture, because the

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Scripture says whoever has the son, whoever has... You're using your fallen logic.

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And the reason I can show you that it's fallen is because it contradicts God's word. If it's fallen, then how much more...

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If I'm seeing that God is evil from a fallen logic... You have no standard of evil. You have no standard of evil.

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How can you see it from a perfect logic? Respectfully, you have no standard of evil. You have no standard. If you're looking at a perfect justice, in my fallen,

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I can see it. In my fallen state, I can see the injustice there. You have no ability to talk about justice or injustice apart from God.

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So, if I can see it and I'm not perfect, how much more perfect is God? I think you're missing what

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I just said to you. You have no standard of justice or injustice apart from God. Because without Him, all you have is a purposeless cosmos.

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Because I was created in God's image. Exactly. How do you know you're created in His image? Where did you hear that? It's in the

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Bible. Thank you. So, now you're using the Bible now as a standard. So, can we use that same Bible?

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Can we use that same Bible to talk about our condition before God? See, what's interesting here is that when you need God's image, you go, because the

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Bible. But when I say it's sin, condemnation, you say, not the Bible. Okay.

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You do this, too, with other... You think that the Bible is the all -purpose or the solution.

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John 17, 17, thy word is truth. It's the truth. The only thing is that you don't accept certain scriptures in the

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Bible. Oh, I accept all of the scriptures in the Bible. It's all God breathed. So, if you accept it, then what happens to the people who believe and fall away?

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The people who believe and fall away? Yes. John answers that. He says, in his epistle, he says, they went out from us in order to show they were never really of us.

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So, they went out from us in order to show they were never really of us. And when Jesus on the last day... Let me finish. Just so you have something to work with, something to shoot at.

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Jesus says on the last day to these false professors, many will come to me on that day and say, Lord, Lord, didn't we do all these signs and cast out demons in your name?

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And what does Jesus say? He says, depart from me, I never knew you. Right.

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He doesn't say, I knew you and you fell away. I never knew you, you workers of iniquity.

19:59

John, I'm sorry, not John. Yeah, no, John 15, verses 1 and 2. Where it says that...

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Let me check. Yeah. John, chapter 15, verses 1 and 2.

20:15

Okay, let's, while you're getting to John 15, let's work through John from the beginning. Okay?

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John chapter 3, what does Jesus promise to those who are believing in him? No, I want... No, no, no. I want to get us to John 15.

20:27

Let's get to John 15, but let's make sure we do it the way that John wrote it. In John chapter 3, what does

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Jesus promise to all who trust in him, who are believing in him? What does he promise to them? Eternal life.

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What kind of life? What does eternal life mean? Let me just finish. Let me finish.

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I want to get to, I want to let John, I want to let John be heard in context, and I'm going to tell you about John 15.

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This isn't the only scripture. I know. We'll do them all. We'll do them all. John chapter 3, what kind of life is promised?

21:00

You're really taking a scripture and twisting it from what it says. No, no, no. I want to just make sure we're on the same page.

21:07

You're actually twisting it from what it says. I haven't gotten to John 15 yet. I haven't gotten to John 15 yet. I want you to read it from what it says.

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No, I'm going to. Not try to interpret it. I want to do it. I'm making a commitment to everybody I'm going to read

21:17

John 15, but I want to make sure we're reading John. Yeah, we're reading John. So John 3... So when he says...

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It's more disrespectful than... No, that's not even in the context. I'm going to get there. John 3...

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You can't get there from John 3. What is promised? You can't get there from John 3. Do you notice how you don't want to hear John? No, you can't get there from John 3.

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This is the typical... John 3 is not the context. And I'm going to say this respectfully, as you're out here preaching a false gospel.

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I am preaching the Bible right now. This is the typical MO of a Mormon apologist, is that you want to prove text, you don't want to actually read things in context.

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So in John chapter 3... John 3 is not in context with John 15. Respectfully and humbly, you didn't hear me say that I want to get to John 15.

21:56

Then get to John 15. Great, so let's start... Let's look in John... Would we agree? Would we agree? Would we agree that John wrote...

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Do you agree that John wrote chapters 1, 2, 3, 4, 5? Yes, he did.

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Okay, so in John 3... That's not in context. In John 3, Jesus says in John 3 that everyone who is believing in him has what kind of life?

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Eternal life. Okay, what does eternal life mean? Well, that's your problem with... What does eternal life mean?

22:24

Okay, you and I have different interpretations... What does the word eternal mean? Okay, when you're talking about eternal life, we're talking about a journey.

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This is what I was talking about before. You believe in a destination, heaven or hell. We believe that salvation is a journey.

22:42

Yeah, I know. But the text, if you read, and I'd encourage you to do a word study on it, eternal in the scriptures means everlasting.

22:50

It does. Lasting forever. The ultimate goal of having faith in him and believing in him is doing the works that he asks us to do.

23:00

Well, let's stay with John there in the text. So we're reading it in context. In John 3, everyone believing in Jesus has what kind of life?

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Okay, eternal life. Which means? You don't know. You can't tell me.

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No, I can't. Everlasting is what it means. Forever, lasting forever. Okay. And what does he say? We'll move now. I'll jump two chapters.

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John 5, verse 24. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my voice and believes him who sent me has presently eternal life.

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Okay, so are you going to get to that? I'm going to. Yeah, I want to make sure we're reading John as John and not proof texting.

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I want to talk about this scripture. And proof texting. I'm sorry. I'm getting these guys in my ear right now.

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How you doing? Sorry to talk to you. Okay, I apologize.

23:54

This is the problem being on Main Street in Mesa. So, John 5, verse 24 says, truly, truly,

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I say to you, he who hears my voice and believes him who sent me has presently eternal life and does not come into condemnation but is passed from death to life.

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So Jesus says those who believe have presently eternal life. Eternal life. And they've already gone from death to life.

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They are now no longer dead but alive spiritually. That's consistent with John.

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I know where you're going. Would you agree that's consistent with John 3? But it contradicts. So Jesus is contradicting himself.

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He must be. There you go. And that's why I want to, this is what I want to tell you. When your interpretation and proof texting of John 15 forces you to call the

24:40

Lord of glory a liar, it is your theology that is wrong. It is your theology that is wrong.

24:46

I'm going to get to John 15. You haven't, though. But what you just did as a Mormon, you just said that Jesus Christ contradicts himself.

24:54

You're the one that says Jesus Christ contradicts himself. No, sir, I haven't even got to John 15 yet. But I'm saying your interpretation of the text forces you to make

25:02

Jesus out to be... There's no other interpretation of the text. No, no, I'm going to get to it. In John 6, in John 6, the vine

25:09

I am the true vine. Branches, he prunes. Every branch in me.

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So, let's do it. Let's get to it. Every branch in me that bears not fruit, he taketh away. That's right.

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That's right. Amen. So, in me. Define that. John, I'm getting to it.

25:26

Are you ready? Because John is writing in context. If you wrote something, you would expect it to be read in context.

25:32

Correct? Exactly. So we did John 5, now John 6. Jesus says...

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No, no, no, no. Jesus says, I've come down from heaven. Don't say it. Just answer the question. I'm answering your question. But you're not.

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Jesus says, I've come down from heaven not to do my will. You're running around making a contradiction. No, sir.

25:49

No, I'm reading the text. And sir, I would just say, respectfully, you don't... Another idea that from a

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Jewish perspective... I'm actually going to get to it. I'm going to get... Yeah, I'm going to get to it. But what I want to make sure

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I point out to you is that it's a typical MO of Mormon apologists to prove text and not allow the text to speak for itself in context.

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So John 6... You are not anywhere near context. I'm getting to it. John 6... You're not anywhere near context. I'll tell you what

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Jesus says about eternal life. Okay. In John 6... Since you're not going to answer this... No, okay, I'll get to it if you allow me to get to context.

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Just go ahead and get to the next one, which is... No, I'd be happy to. 1 Corinthians 3... I'd be happy to read it.

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Okay. Do you want me to get to the answer? Who does the indweller dwell? The Holy Spirit indwells God's people. Okay. Actually, what's interesting here is that I'm willing to engage

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John chapter 15 with you. The indweller indwells... Do you notice that you don't want to continue in John?

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You're not answering the question. I'm happy to get to it, sir. So John chapter 6, Jesus says,

26:49

I've come down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of him who has sent me, and he says this, and I've already given you assurance that I'm going to get to John 15, but I want to show you that your proof texting of John 15 is a proof and your eisegesis loading into it your interpretation causes

27:10

Jesus to contradict himself. I'm reading it as it is. So ready? In me. In me. Define in me.

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And John 15 comes after John 14. So you can't answer the question. Sir, I'm happy to do it. You're not.

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I'm getting to it. You're not answering. Just answer what it says. In me. What is in me? I'm doing it. I'm going to get to it.

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In John chapter 6. I don't want you to get to it. I want you to answer the question. In John chapter 6. Do you understand what you're doing?

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Absolutely. You're avoiding the question. No, I'm happy to read it. And what I want you to hear

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What I want you to hear is that John has a particular context. He's made particular promises.

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And John 15 cannot be Well, I'll show you. I'll do what you're doing. Alright? Ready? Judas went and hanged himself.

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Go thou and do likewise. It doesn't say that. Do you see what I just did? I just grabbed a text out of the

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Bible. I just randomly quoted it without a context. And I applied it in a wrong way.

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Judas went and hanged himself. And now proof text. Now you go do it likewise. What you do do it quickly.

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Do you see? It doesn't work, does it? So you would agree you have to actually read the word of God with respect and in context.

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And in John chapter 6 Jesus says I've come down from heaven not to do my will but the will of him who has sent me.

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And this is the will of him who has sent me. Watch. That I lose nothing Right. of all that he has given to me but raise it up at the last day.

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Can you answer that? Can you answer that? Yeah. Jesus says in John 6 that he'll lose none of all that the

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Father has given to him. And he'll raise it up at the last day. John 15 verses 1 and 2. Yeah. Okay.

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So if you think that what Jesus is saying there is that true believers are lost then you're turning

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Jesus statement in John 6 into nonsense. You're taking a contradiction.

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Why is it a contradiction? I believe John 15. No you don't. I certainly do.

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So you believe that those who are in me are going to be taken away. So John 6 just make sure we're clear

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Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe and he'll lose none that the Father has given to him. Really?

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So I'm just asking do you at least acknowledge that Jesus says that he doesn't lose anybody that the

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Father has given to him? Do you agree with that? Yeah. But not your interpretation of it. I'm just asking if you agree with the statement of Jesus.

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Because you don't know who the Father has given you. I certainly don't. And that's exactly the point.

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I don't know who's truly saved. I can be assured of my own salvation because Jesus promised us.

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be assured of your own salvation because you don't know the mind of God. Jesus said

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I'm going to try to answer. Just yes or no. Can I answer? Just yes or no. I do know yes

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God's own revelation. And he promises eternal life to all who believe in him.

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I know I said I do that's on these pages. Okay. I know the mind of God that's on these pages.

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Yeah. And he says all who repent and believe have eternal life. You have a whole bunch of contradictions because people

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Do you notice Mormonism forces you into a position to say that the word of God contradicts itself.

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No. You're contradicting it. No sir. I said I agree that the word of God I haven't even gotten to first Corinthians yet.

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You're contradicting with John. So we've already established that Jesus gives a couple things. One, Jesus gives eternal life which means everlasting.

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Two, those who believe in Jesus have eternal life and have come out of judgment into life.

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So you have a problem with answering John 15 1 and 2. We've established You have a problem answering Sir.

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the fact that the Sir, are you interested in a conversation where we can engage the text?

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You're not engaging the text. That's the whole point. I want to ask if we're even understanding the same words the same concepts

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That's my whole question. Excellent. You're not getting to the I'm happy to I'm getting there right now.

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But I want to make sure it's clear that any interpretation of a text that makes

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Jesus into a liar as you have is a wrong interpretation. Don't say me.

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Sir, you've already said he contradicts himself. In your theology. No, sir. Sir, what kind of life does

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Jesus give? Eternal life. And does he lose anybody the Father has given to him?

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Yes. You said yes? Yes. But Jesus says he wouldn't. No, he does not.

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However, you don't. Thank you. So then John 15 couldn't So then John 15 Sir, you've already granted that John 15 couldn't be teaching that those are true believers that are being cut off.

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So how do you define in me? So I'm getting out. So you already but you do agree with that. Okay, we repeat the

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You just said that Jesus will lose no true believer who's been given to him by the

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Father. Right. Fantastic. So then John 15 is not teaching the loss of salvation of true believers, is it?

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That's the problem. You don't know who is a true believer including you. No, exactly. I cannot by my own observation know whether this gentleman here truly has faith and believes in Jesus or whether this gentleman here truly has faith and believes in Jesus.

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Watch. The only way that I can know the only way that I can know You can't even know yourself. Oh, I sure can. Yes. This is what

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John says. This is another example. You cannot know for yourself. This is another example of where If you are the one that the

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Father has given to the Son. You can't know. Can I answer? This is another Can I answer?

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Sure, you can answer. Okay. I want you to say it one more time. Say it one more time. Say it one more time.

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You cannot know if you are truly one of God's elect or one of God's ones the

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Father has given to the Son. So I can't know if I have eternal life. No, you can't. Say it again. You cannot know that I have what?

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If you are the one that the Father has given to the Son. Tell me make sure I understand your position so that everyone here can hear it.

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I cannot know that I have eternal life. You cannot. Say it so it's coming from your mouth and not mine. Okay.

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You cannot know that I have that the Father has given your salvation to the Son. You can't know.

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I can't know that I have eternal life. That's your position. Right. These things have been written unto you that believe in the name of the

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Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. Okay.

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But you don't know if you're the one. Sir. Sir. God bless you.

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You're not interested in a conversation. Sir. This is a typical MO of a Mormon apologist and you stand here with a sign with claims that you cannot support with the word of God.

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Who won't answer the question. Sir. I've already I've already got you to agree that Jesus can't lose anybody who's been given to Him by the

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Father. Yes. You've already agreed to that. Yes. So fantastic. John 15 is not teaching the loss of salvation of anybody.

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It is. But you already said on the one hand He can't lose anybody. You have not defined those given to Him by the

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Father. No. You can't define who the Having a hard time.

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You can't define Having a hard time. This is where Joseph Smith's False God and False Gospel leads you.

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You can't define who is in me. See that's the problem. Sir. In me. Sir, the text in John 15 matches the words of Jesus in John 14 and John 13 and John 12 and 10 and 6.

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And you've already fundamentally agreed you've already fundamentally agreed that John 15 cannot be teaching the loss of salvation of true believers because you said

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Jesus said that that can't happen. So now you're changing your position. No, you have a problem with the

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Bible. Sir. You have a problem. Let's rewind the tape. Everyone here has heard you say that Jesus cannot lose according to John 6 anybody who's been given to Him by the

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Father. Yes. So define in me. Right. Okay. So, wait. To try to get back there

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Jesus can't lose anybody given to Him by the Father. Correct? He'll raise Him up in the last day.

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Right? Yes. Fundamentally fantastic. Okay. That's the position of Jesus. So, in John chapter 15

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Jesus has just said in John 14 what? About the Holy Spirit. He's going to send us the

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Comforter who speaks the truth of all things. He will be in you.

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He will guide you into all truth. He will convict the world of sin and righteousness. Correct? Yes. Okay. I will not lose

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I will not leave you as orphans. I will come to you. Right? And what does He say in John in the same text 14 getting to 15 when

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He gives His Spirit to His people He says that the Spirit of God will be in them.

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Right? And what does He say about those people? He says this whoever has my commandments and keeps them

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He it is who loves me. Right? So, how do you how do you and I know somebody truly believes?

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By keeping the commandments. Amen. So, that's why our work is to that's why the works display whether the faith we have is real or false.

36:31

I would absolutely agree with that. Right on. So, we're in agreement now for the first time tonight let's let's blow let's toot a horn and let's do a little dance.

36:40

Okay. So, Jesus teaches I'm just going to throw this out the problem is we believe on the different works that are required.

36:48

Right. So, you and you just respectfully contradicted yourself you said the the works display the reality of the faith and now you're saying the works actually merit salvation.

36:59

No, I did not. Well, that's what you just said. I said that No, I didn't. I said that that our our faith is defined by our works.

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So, we know Originally, you said that that that the works themselves display the reality of the faith whether it's true faith or false faith.

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Right. And then you said a moment ago about the works that we must do ultimately for salvation.

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No, ultimately for cleansing our sins and receiving For salvation. Again. Being cleansed of sins and being right with God would be

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That's where we differ on what salvation is because your definition of salvation is a little corner being reconciled to God a little corner called heaven

37:36

Sorry, then you don't know what I believe about I'll stop you right there. You may have talked to Christians who believe that We believe that salvation is a road away a journey

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I know. You don't believe you have peace with God. It gives us eventual um um a remission of our sins and a redemption to God and I mean a redemption to the

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Father not just God. So your gospel is not false. Our gospel is absolutely false. Well, then you just said you just said you just said it was a path that one day ends in redemption.

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Paul says in Romans 5 therefore having been past tense declared righteous by faith we have peace with God.

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But those who follow the I know, I know I follow that part and that's a false gospel. It's not a false gospel.

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Yeah, and here's here's how you know it is. Here's how you know it is. It might be something that you reject or that you don't believe.

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No, Paul says it is. No, Paul says in 1 Corinthians in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 verses 41 and 40 40 and 41 he talks about the the resurrection of the dead and receiving different glories even as the glory of the sun and the glory of the moon

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No, sir. No, no, sir. He talks about the different glories of the celestial bodies. He doesn't talk anywhere in there about different levels of heaven.

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As a matter of fact he talks about the resurrection of the dead and when the resurrection and the different glories of the different bodies.

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Yes, sir. The resurrection that the different kinds of glory of the sun when they when they receive the resurrection they're going to have a glory of a

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Yeah, amen. a glory of the moon and a glory of the stars. No, sir. The text No, the text doesn't say that.

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I encourage you to read it. It doesn't say that at all. Sir, in a very clear text of Paul the apostle

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Paul who talks about how we're justified before God he says in Romans 3 verse 28 after inditing all of humanity and placing them all under condemnation which you deny he says therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

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And he says what you're trying to do trying to earn it through your You contradicted the Bible No, sir. when

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James says in verse 224 that man is not saved by faith alone.

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And here's a here's a wonderful example and I hope everybody is listening of once again the typical M .O.

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of a Mormon apologist proof texting without the context. What does James say in James chapter 2 about the law?

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It says that you're not saved by the law. No. Sorry, it doesn't. What does

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James 2 say about the law? All this. What does James you quoted James 2 just now.

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So what does James 2 say about the law? Okay. Which the law of Moses.

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Okay. What does he say about the law? What does he say? And this is exactly my point respectfully to you.

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You just quoted a proof text to try to say that ultimately the law and faith are for justification.

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What the proof text is though is a direct contradiction against the teaching of faith alone.

40:31

When you ignore the when you ignore the passage certainly. Because James chapter 2 verse 10 says It talks about how

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Abraham was justified by his faith alone. James 2 He had to do worse. Okay, let me ask you what does he say about the law?

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It's very simple. It's right before he talks about Abraham. Then it's not in the context because the context is about Abraham.

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James chapter 2 verse 10 says Whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet stumble in one point he is guilty of all.

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So James couldn't possibly be saying what you're saying sir because that's teaching that if you fail even once you're guilty of the entire law.

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Have you sinned today? Again, the law of Moses. Have you sinned today? I don't know. Have I? I don't know.

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I would actually submit to you that if you think that you haven't sinned today or you're confused about it then you don't know anything about the holiness of God.

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What I do know is that I haven't committed anything against the law of Moses. Have you loved God today? Which is what

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James was talking about. Well, the law of Moses The law of Moses is The law is the law of Moses period.

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I mean that is the law is the law of Moses. Fantastic. So you've given me then the greatest part of it.

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Ready? Have you loved God today with your heart, soul, mind and strength perfectly? Yes.

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You have and you've loved your neighbor as you love yourself today perfectly. Yes. Well, I have bad news for you. You thought that you have but you just lied.

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No, I did not. Because Jesus says that all the law and the prophets are built upon love for God and love for neighbor.

41:56

Right. Right. So you've kept today God's law entirely perfectly. Sure. I would submit to you sir that you have no understanding of the law of God.

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If you believe it today you have not violated it. I have not lied to anybody. I have not Well, you just did to me by saying that you haven't sinned.

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That's not a lie. Sir, I would submit to you that you need to know the holiness of God so you can realize how much you truly need

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Jesus. Sir, I'm not God. Exactly. So if you don't know you can't tell me I can certainly tell you that John tells you that if you say you have no sin you're a liar and the truth is not in you.

42:35

You ask if I sin today. Right. So today you've had a day of sinless perfection. You bet. Wow. Isn't that great?

42:42

This is compelling. It really is. I mean Sir, I just want to love you. Only God knows that, sir.

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I would say today at least certainly lying. What you're doing then is judging falsely. No, sir. I'm not judging you.

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I'm telling you that according to God's standards we're all sinners. We all fall short and I know God is holy.

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You don't have to sin every day. Well, I know that God is holy. When do you think the last time you sinned was? I don't know. Maybe yesterday or the day before.

43:08

Well, then we at least have yesterday. You're guilty of all of God's law. I have had a good day today. Fantastic. Well, I'll say this.

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I love my neighbor as myself. I'll say this respectfully. With all my heart, mind, and strength. I'll say this respectfully to you that you need to really study the holiness of God and His law to realize that you have not kept

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His law perfectly today. You do not know that. You are judging falsely. And since you said and since you said that you did violate

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God's law yesterday, James says you're guilty of all of it. He's talking about According to God's law, you violated all of it.

43:45

He's talking about the law of Moses. And I can violate all of the law of Moses because the law of Moses no longer applies to us because Jesus took that away.

43:53

Even though in Romans, Paul says, do we make void the law through faith?

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He says, may it never be. He says, we establish the law because of faith in Jesus.

44:08

Contradicted you, sir? Chapter and verse. No, no, no, no. Yes, sir. The law was done away with in Christ.

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Even though Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5, may namasete, do not even begin to think that I have come to destroy the law and the prophets.

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I did not come to destroy it but to fulfill it. So He came to fulfill it. Right. To put it into its proper place.

44:28

Do you practice circumcision anymore for religious reasons? Well, no, because the text of the Bible tells us that circumcision was meant to pass away.

44:36

Right? It was that symbol of the covenant was meant to go away. That rudimentary part of the covenant was meant to go away.

44:42

So, me by loving my neighbor as myself. I am circumcised, by the way, in my heart. Okay. Which is the true circumcision.

44:50

So, I would agree with that. Fantastic. We did it again. Number two. The thing is, is that, again, um, where was

45:00

I going? You went over there. Listen, listen, I got to go ahead and have more tracks. I would encourage you to repent and turn to Christ. You're believing in a false

45:06

God and a false gospel. And I would encourage you to read John chapter 1 verses 1 through 15.

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You are actually committing a sin by telling me that. What? You understand that. By falsely judging me, you are committing a sin by telling me that.

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teaches us in His word. You are committing a, a, um, a lie.

45:30

You're lying. Okay? Okay. I'll tell you what God says. God says in His word that He's the only God. There's none before Him, none after.

45:37

You believe that there were and you can become one. He says in His word that you'll never be justified through the law. You believe that you will.

45:43

And that's a false God and a false gospel. Please come to Christ for life. Who, who in me is, is

45:49

Christ going to send away? Obviously not true believers. You've already admitted that. Okay.

45:56

Have a good night. however, you don't know who the true believers are. Have a good night. The only way we can know who they are is based upon their profession and their works.

46:04

Um, that's not the only way. Well, you said that when you read John 14. Do you have a different position now?

46:12

No, what I mean by that is that, uh, you can't know because you don't know the mind of God if you're truly saved.

46:21

And I, I do, I know what he says. Let me get to the point. Is that you have people like Bart Ehrman.

46:28

You have, um, Yeah, I know, I know Bart Ehrman. Charles Templeton. You have, uh, Terrell, uh,

46:33

Terrell Phil. What does Bart Ehrman, real fast, before you name ten different people, let's try the first one you said.

46:39

What does Bart Ehrman say about the text of the scriptures? Does he say that we've lost the autographer or does he say we can get back to it through the manuscript tradition?

46:49

He had a spiritual experience. I know his experience is not what I'm asking you. I'm asking you what

46:54

Bart Ehrman's position is on the transmitted text of the New Testament. Does he believe that we can get back to the autographer?

47:00

Before, when he believed he was saved? Today. No, is that before when he believed he was saved? Today, sir.

47:05

Or what he's believing after he's denied it? Sir, today. What does he write in his book?

47:11

Today, as a skeptic and critic of the Bible about the transmitted text of the Bible, does he believe that we've lost the originals or that we can get back to it through the manuscript tradition?

47:21

Which does he believe? Don't know. Sir, so when you throw out a name like Bart Ehrman and you don't even know his position,

47:27

I would submit to you that you're being intellectually dishonest. No, what I'm doing is taking a class of individuals who claim...

47:33

Let me tell you, he believes that we have the original text through the manuscript tradition.

47:39

He does not believe it's been lost. Okay, you believe in a group of people who believe that they were saved at one point in time and then later turn around and deny it.

47:48

Sir, I understand that. There are apostates even in the New Testament. Paul deals with them, John deals with them. So if they believed at one time...

47:55

Sure, false faith. ...and fell away. It's not false. John... It's to them. So here's the difference between the two of us. So... I'm going to use the scriptures.

48:02

When they believed and your belief now, what's the difference? So I'll tell you.

48:07

John says they went out from us in order to show they were never really of us. What is important is that a person who says they have faith in Jesus takes seriously things like when

48:17

Paul says to examine yourself to see whether you are in the faith. Whether you are actually believing.

48:25

That's what a believer ought to do. Someone actually examine themselves. They did that. If you listen to Bart Ehrman's...

48:30

Have you ever heard Bart Ehrman's testimony? I have. I've read it. Well, I'll say as a Christian, listening to Bart Ehrman's testimony doesn't sound anything like the gospel that I believe in.

48:39

It absolutely does. No. Then, sir, I would say you need to read Romans 1 through 6 if you think that the gospel he believed in is the gospel.

48:50

He had the same gospel that you do. No, sir. He believed in the same Bible that you do originally. He did not believe in the absolute holiness of God, our utter brokenness and fallenness into sin.

49:01

saved, yes, he did. He didn't believe in a turning away from sin to trust in Christ for forgiveness and salvation.

49:07

When he first believed, when he first had faith, yes, he did. I'd encourage you to listen to his testimony. I believe it was given at Georgetown and see if that matches anything

49:14

I just said to you. But anyway, you brought his name up and you did it in terms of... I'm talking about first belief.

49:21

Yeah. So, your difference in belief and faith right now is no different than his first belief.

49:28

No, sir. Okay. There is dead faith. No, there's not. There is James...

49:33

I thought you said you read James 2. I did. But what I'm saying is that... Stop. Real fast. In James chapter 2, he specifically addresses the difference between living faith and dead faith.

49:47

Yes. Okay. So, you denied that that exists. In your church or in... not in your church, but in your faith, okay, when you're talking about a saving faith...

49:59

Living faith. ...how do you know that that's not a false faith... Here's how. ...compared to a real faith?

50:05

Exactly the way that James uses it in James 2. A true faith, a living faith which is not dead, will demonstrate itself that it is truly alive through good works.

50:15

It did. Through good works. It did. When he was first... When he first had faith, he performed good works.

50:20

And John tells you, and John tells you whether those good works were actually real, true, in God, through living faith.

50:31

How can you tell... John says... Here's how. John says, they went out from us in order to show they were never really of us.

50:40

That's the word of God. Let me ask you, would you stand on that? Stand on what?

50:47

What John says about if somebody departs, he says that they were never really of us.

50:55

Okay. Do you believe that? That doesn't... Do you believe it, sir? That doesn't... Sir, do you believe it? Yes, but it doesn't solve...

51:02

Then that solves the problem. It doesn't solve your problem. It certainly does. It doesn't solve your problem. Sir, you already agreed.

51:09

But you are just in the beginning stages of losing your faith and walking away. No, sir.

51:14

No, no, sir. I have confidence in the one that I believe in. I know his word and I know the gospel and I trust in him.

51:20

You know that because there's a difference between your faith and what Bart Ehrman first had. No, sir. The gospel that he believed was not the gospel

51:26

I believe. And the fact that his faith was false is demonstrated in the fact that he left. It was at first.

51:32

Sir, it was a false profession. No, it was not a false profession. Sir, it was. I thought you agreed with John. It was a true confession of Jesus Christ.

51:39

So you have a problem. Do you agree with John? You have a problem with it, don't you? No, sir. I believe it with all my heart.

51:46

And you, sir, said you agreed with John. I do agree with John. But in reality you don't because you're continuing the debate.

51:52

I'm continuing the debate because your definition of salvation is wrong. We weren't even talking about salvation.

51:57

We were talking about faith. Which leads to salvation. Sure. And we're talking about whether somebody who has true faith or false faith.

52:04

Which leads to the fact that you can't know God's mind. I do know. That you are... Here's his words.

52:10

...that you are chosen and handpicked from the Father and given to the Son. Sir, and the reason I know is because He promises eternal life to all who turn from sin to trust in Him.

52:19

And the proof that I truly know Him... Here it is. Here's the proof. Here's the proof. Here's the proof.

52:24

It's in John 15. That those who are in the Son, truly in the Son, bear fruit and are pruned by the

52:31

Father. My life has been transformed because of this Savior. I would encourage you to turn to Him yourself.

52:37

No, sir. So was Charles Hamilton. And the way that you know, sir, the way that you know it's not true is that Bart Ehrman right now is attacking the

52:44

Bible and Christians and Jesus. But his faith at first was no different than the faith you have.

52:49

Sir, it's a false faith. Read James 2. It was no different than the faith you have. No, sir. It is.