Mormonism & Assurance

No Compromise Radio

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:01

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

00:08

No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the

00:16

Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

00:24

In short, if you like smooth, watered -down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

00:30

By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

00:41

King. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry. Mike Abendroth, Steve Cooley.

00:48

Welcome. Hi, Mike. Thank you. How are you? Thanks for having me. Welcome to all those on KAGV and KFGR. By the way, there's a new book,

00:55

Gospel Assurance. Have you read it, Steve? On KFI. K -I -E -V.

01:01

I think that's 870 a .m. in Southern California. I've read the intro. I've read the intro. Okay. That's all I wrote, anyway.

01:06

Yeah. Okay. That's the important part. That is. You can get it online.

01:13

By the way, somebody said that they would read it for me and put it up on Audible. It wouldn't charge me per hour to read it, and he gave me a couple sample chapters, so you're going to get it on Audible pretty soon.

01:24

Does he have a Southern accent? He kind of sounds like, I don't know, kind of a

01:32

Southern Baptist seven -day freewill preacher. All right. Fire it up.

01:39

So today, I just said, ah, fair to Steve. He's been doing this adult

01:45

Sunday school series on what? Loving your wives. Okay. Loving your wives. Then I also know that Steve has just been talking about Mormonism, because we have a series on Sunday night here at the church.

01:57

We've just started different cults looking at what's their source of authority, who did they say the Savior is, and how do they say you get to heaven, salvation.

02:05

And so you did yours on this last Sunday night. Right. Right? And so I thought, well, what do we talk about today?

02:11

Do we talk about loving your wives, or do we talk about Mormonism, or both? And then you said it. Loving your Mormon wives.

02:18

It's going to be a combo show, complete with Smoker's Laugh.

02:26

I'll never forget the time that Piper shows up at Grace Church, and he's a speaker at the

02:34

Shepherd's Conference. You know, he's sitting in the front row and hand -waving and all that, and MacArthur had told him to speak on Christian hedonism.

02:45

And God allegedly told Piper to talk about racial reconciliation. And of course, there's the big backdrop on that and all the race stuff.

02:54

This is 10, 15 years ago, right, Steve? Yeah. And, you know, Piper's background with that, that he repented of, and then

03:00

Minnesota issues in Minneapolis. And then you've got Grace Church, and John MacArthur, the athlete, struggles with other sins, but not that, it's

03:09

Los Angeles, melting pot, and so John didn't want, MacArthur didn't want Piper to do that. And so then

03:14

Piper gets up, and he does a collage of both, he jammed them both into the same message.

03:22

Yeah. It was like, yeah, now I'm going to shift gears, now I'm going back. I was surprised at the

03:29

Puritan conference by a couple things. We were talking about conferencing last week. I thought there's a couple speakers that, they just did such a great job,

03:39

I thought, just to listen to that kind of preaching at a conference, I was really encouraged by.

03:45

And then I thought it was interesting when they did the Q &A panel, Nate Busenitz talked to John Piper and John MacArthur on the same platform.

03:53

Did you watch that? No. I think Nate asked MacArthur, what do you appreciate about John Piper?

04:00

And it was something like everything. And they just went back and forth, and these two old, you know, pastors talking about one another and what was going on.

04:07

It was pretty fascinating. But I never thought I'd see Piper back on the platform again after that co -mingling.

04:15

Yeah. I don't know what to think about it. I just thought, I don't really know who was organizing the conference per se.

04:23

I have an idea that it wasn't, you know, maybe so much

04:28

Johnny Mac. Yeah. True. Okay. So loving your Mormon wives isn't going to be the topic.

04:36

Let's talk a little bit about Mormonism in general, Steve. Steve, you were a Mormon for how many years? Well, you know,

04:42

I guess technically 20 years, but really realistically 28 years, first 28 years of my life.

04:49

Okay. Why do you think there's so much attention on Mormonism these days? This is what

04:55

I'm thinking, and I'm just a layperson. Broadway plays, I don't remember the name of it, it's got

05:00

Mormon in the title. Book of Mormon. Okay. Yeah. Book of Mormon. You've got the

05:06

Chosen series with the guy who's a producer saying essentially that 90 % of the stuff is added in the dialogue because the accounts in scripture are so short.

05:18

And by the way, the Mormon Jesus is the same Jesus of the evangelicals. And then now seen in this latest series,

05:25

Jesus said, I'm the law. We're kind of right from the Book of Mormon. Yeah. I mean, and you know, it's funny to me because things come out like that, and then, you know, there's backpedaling, and oh, we don't really mean that, and you know, no, that's not really what we're all about.

05:43

But I mean, knowing how Mormons think, I mean, they wanted to say that they like to think

05:50

C .S. Lewis was Mormon, right? They know he wasn't Mormon, but they're like, we're pretty sure that when he died, he accepted the true gospel because of what he wrote.

06:01

Who would ever think something like that? That's the way I think, by the way, of Bob Marley, because there's an account that he turned to the

06:07

Lord Jesus, you know, on his deathbed. And I want that to be true. Right. Right? I want to redeem Bob Marley.

06:13

Well, I mean, who doesn't want people to be saved, right? Right. That's true. I don't think of people that died, oh,

06:19

I hope, you know, God got them and sent them straight to hell because that's indicative.

06:26

I mean, when people think like that, I mean, certainly, you know, there are circumstances where you're like, well, there's no way that person had time to repent, you know, from what they just did or whatever.

06:40

But I think for the most part that when we're vindictive about that, it says more about us than it does about the other person.

06:48

Steve, there are also shows, all kinds of reality shows about Mormon sister -wives and all this other stuff.

06:55

Is it just me? Or why does it seem like Mormonism is just in the news? Well, I mean, they're always because,

07:04

I mean, Mitt Romney was my opening the other night. I mean, it was interesting to read, you know, what Joel Osteen said about him, which was essentially, well, if he says he's a

07:12

Christian, that's good enough for me, you know. And other people saying, you know, positive things about Mormonism being

07:21

Christian. But, you know, I think even like because they're active in politics,

07:28

Mike Lee, you know, Mitt Romney, even Evan McMullin in Utah, they're all

07:36

Mormons because you have to be in Utah to run for office. And there are other Mormons of note, you know, around.

07:44

What do you mean you have to be? You'll just never get elected if you aren't? Oh, yeah. No chance. I mean, there's a burgeoning.

07:51

I mean, Salt Lake City is as wicked as any city now on earth. I mean, just outright, you know, gay pride parade, all that kind of stuff.

07:57

But when you get outside of Salt Lake City, it's as Mormon as it can be.

08:03

I mean, you know, if you just talking to pastors who pastor in Utah, you are the minority, you know, you are and everybody lets you know it.

08:17

Steve, do you think maybe Mormonism could be, at least from my eyes, popular because we see debauchery in the world and then we see clean, moral living in Mormon?

08:29

Yes. And, you know, I mean, the stress on families, one of the things that the

08:34

Mormon Church says, which I think is brilliant, talk about a good marketing slogan, families are forever.

08:40

Who can be against that? Oh, you would have to be out of your mind to, you know, just go, oh, yeah,

08:46

I don't like that. I'm my forever family. Yeah. I mean, we want to think about the family being together forever.

08:55

That's what we want. So of course, it's just when you get into the intricacies of Mormon, I mean, some people

09:03

I think on Sunday night probably had their minds blown because I'm reading Mormon documents to them.

09:11

And yeah, it's pretty peculiar, some of the things that are taught. Steve, if you were talking to a

09:19

Mormon that are listening today, matter of fact, the other day I had some show on something about Roman Catholicism or this, that, or the other.

09:27

Oh, we're not Rome. It was Rome that took away assurance. I did a whole thing on don't take away assurance.

09:33

It was Rome that took away assurance, and that was one of the key things, according to Sinclair Ferguson, that the Reformation recovered was the doctrine of assurance.

09:40

Because if you get salvation right, assurance follows. And I guess someone gave it to their

09:46

Roman Catholic friend to listen to. Well, what if somebody's going to listen to this and they're a Mormon? What do you do?

09:54

And I'm trying to use you as an example of how our listening audience could evangelize a

09:59

Mormon. Because if you just say Jesus, he died and was raised, isn't that the same

10:05

Jesus? I mean, I know God's Word can be powerful and that you could just read Scripture and someone could get saved, but is that your strategy, to define who the real

10:12

Jesus is? What do you do? Because they're going to nod their head and totally agree. In fact, shockingly, they will even agree with you if you say

10:21

Jesus Christ is God. They will nod their head, and you'll just go, hmm. Well, I remember the first time it happened to me, talking to a returned missionary, and he says, well, sure,

10:31

Jesus Christ is God. So I thought for a second, and then I asked him, you know, was there ever a time when Jesus did not exist?

10:38

And he paused, and his face got kind of uncomfortable, and he said, you know, kind of like, yes.

10:45

Right? I mean, ultimately, they know there's a difference. They just try to wallpaper over those things.

10:52

I mean, it's interesting, even in reading some of the Mormon sources over this last week, you know, when did

10:57

Jesus Christ become God, according to the Mormon church? Well, it was after the preexistence.

11:03

They believe that we all existed before we came here. There was a spirit world where we were all born as spirits to our

11:11

Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, including Jesus, including Satan, including all of us.

11:17

And then they say— Bob Marley, too? Yes, Bob Marley, too. And then they say that after that preexistence, in which

11:23

Jesus and Satan presented their plans for salvation to the

11:28

Father, and the Father rejected Satan's and accepted Jesus's, which made

11:34

Satan very angry, and he led a rebellion, et cetera, et cetera. And that's where the demonic hordes come from.

11:40

One third of them followed, you know, Satan, and they were defeated by Jesus and the mighty warriors of which we were, you know, part of that.

11:51

So then after that, they say that after the preexistence, Jesus was made

11:57

God, was kind of promoted to God by the Father. But he doesn't receive the fullness, whatever that means, the fullness of his deity until after the resurrection.

12:10

So it's kind of like, okay, you're president pro tem, you know, I mean, you're temporary president.

12:17

I'm going to put you in charge. Steve, as we're doing this— Just going to see how you do. We're doing the show.

12:23

There's the dumpster truck going out there. There's kids running in the hall. We just want you to know, this is grit radio.

12:30

This is live. We don't mess around. There's no hermetically sealed booths that we have, cone of silences.

12:37

Yeah, actually, we could be doing an interview on the street, you know. You know, the kind of Jay Leno, the street walking or whatever, and he'd ask questions about people.

12:46

Maybe we should do that next week. Like, hey, I just ran into this guy on the street. My name is Mike Adenroth. What's your name? Steve. So what do you say to a

12:53

Mormon then? I meet a Mormon. I'm on the plane. I want to evangelize. Is there—obviously the

12:59

Spirit of God could have me do anything, but what would you do? I would want to talk about Jesus, right?

13:06

Because I want them to understand that Jesus is fundamentally different than the

13:11

Jesus they believe in. And then I might even go to John 1, you know, and John 1 -1 and then

13:17

John 12, you know, just in 14, and talk to them about the eternality of Jesus and what that means, right?

13:27

And the fact that— Before Abraham was. I am. And the fact that they're—you know,

13:32

I wouldn't deny the preexistence because that's kind of immaterial, and eventually they'll get that, but I want them to understand

13:39

Jesus— Pun intended, that's immaterial, his preexistence. Jesus is eternally

13:45

God, so there's that. And then I would want them to say, because their article—or want them to understand this, that one of their articles of faith is that we believe that all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

14:04

And then I'd probably want to go to 1 Corinthians 15 and say, well, here's the gospel, right?

14:10

Jesus died for our sins, according to the scripture, and was raised on the third day. You know, this is the gospel, not laws and ordinances, not the things

14:18

I do, you know, and ultimately they just need to get it into their heads that when

14:24

Jesus said, it is finished, he meant the work of salvation, not just the work of the atonement, which is what they stress all the time, but the actual reconciliation between man and God, that we're made right by the finished work of Jesus, and that nothing we do, our baptism, you know, all of our good works don't add to anything, because they have this whole system, this whole list of things that you have to do, including getting married in the temple.

14:50

If you don't get married in the temple, you can't get there. And if I could just add this, and here's what they don't have.

14:58

They have no sense of urgency, and here's why. Because everybody in this life, in their minds, every single person in this life has already escaped hell.

15:10

Nobody's going to hell. I mean, Oliver Cowdery, let's see, not Oliver Cowdery, but there's a man who undermined

15:18

Joseph Smith, and they believe maybe he's in the sons of perdition, is what they would call it. Judas Iscariot.

15:23

I mean, there's a very high bar for getting sent to, you know, where those who failed in the pre -existence went.

15:33

Very high bar. You have to know the truth, and then actively work to undermine it. And so, you know, very few people meet that.

15:41

I think you're meeting it right now. You know the truth, and you're undermining it. Yeah, well, that's okay. Okay, you, Judas, Goliath, and Cowdery.

15:52

So, you know, they teach, in fact, Joseph Smith once said that if a man could see the lowest degree of heaven, they have three degrees of heaven, if he could see the lowest tier of the lowest degree of heaven, he would kill himself to get there.

16:05

That's, you know, how wonderful they think this heaven is, but you're not married there.

16:13

There's also, you know, there's some controversy, I didn't talk about this Sunday night, but about there's a concept of eternal progression.

16:20

In other words, let's say you get the lowest degree of the lowest kingdom of heaven. Could you actually eventually, through time, work your way up through, you know, these other things?

16:31

Oh, so when I was reading the Nicene Creed and the Athanasius Creed, and it was talking about eternal procession.

16:38

That's what it was talking about? No, it wasn't, but they also see the Council of Nicaea as, you know, the moment where Christianity just completely, you know, left.

16:48

I mean, the influence of Platonism and, you know, etc., etc.

16:53

Okay. Mike Abendroth with Steve Cooley, No Compromise Radio. We're talking about Mormonism. Steve, when

16:59

I think of Mormons, I don't have the background that you do, and I don't know a lot of the doctrines and covenants,

17:05

I mean, I have it on my computer and I can look it up. Similar to Catholic strategy, strategy with Catholics, I tend to go for the assurance part, right?

17:15

Because as you just were talking about law and trying to keep the law, and they don't know what the real good news is, so they don't know law do, gospel done, etc.,

17:25

etc., I kind of just try to focus in on how do you know, and maybe they say, oh, preexistence, there's no hell, of course everybody's going,

17:33

I just don't know which heaven, but then that gets me back to God's perfect nature and holy nature, and this can't be, well,

17:42

I'm going to do things pretty well to get in. No, no, you would have to do things perfectly, and I would try to get them to admit that they don't perfectly obey the

17:50

Book of Mormon, the Bible, or anything else. And you know what? That probably isn't really going to faze them.

17:56

They acknowledge that they have sinned, but they think, you know, as long as they confess their sin, they're going to be forgiven, and they're on this kind of perfectionist treadmill that doesn't terrify them because there's no hell, right?

18:11

And so it's kind of this, well, if you do the best you can, you know, Nephi, grace comes in after all that we can do.

18:20

Does it actually say you've been saved by grace after all you can do? You are saved by grace after all you can do, right?

18:26

So I mean, you give your best effort and then grace fills in. Sounds like Rome to me, but that's another story.

18:32

And you know, I told the story Sunday night. I may have mentioned it to you before, but just sitting,

18:40

I remember sitting on the hood of my Mustang, probably my senior year in college or high school with my buddy

18:47

Mark, who's no longer alive. And we were in,

18:53

I think we were in the elder, or not the elder, but the priest, 16, 17, 18 -year -old group.

19:00

And we were in the presidency of that because we were always in the presidency. We were just like well -liked kids. And I said, you know,

19:08

Mark, I don't know about this whole becoming a God thing because I just can't seem to stop sinning.

19:15

And he's like, he laughed at me and he's just like, oh, don't worry about it, you know, you'll get over it.

19:20

Like, we'll get there kind of thing. But see, I think, you know, because most

19:27

Mormons don't really understand Mormon theology, and so maybe you could upset some of them just by hearing things like, you know,

19:34

Jesus the Eternal and showing them that in scripture. But for some of them, they kind of know some of the ins and outs of Mormon theology, and they just think, you know,

19:46

I'm gonna get there. I'm gonna do it because I'm going to the temple.

19:51

I'm not doing these horrendous things like drinking coffee, for crying out loud, and, you know, and I'm not smoking cigarettes, and I'm not swearing, so I must be on the right track.

20:05

How many Mormons actually have more than one wife? I mean, is it, that's just kind of a rogue deal, kind of an

20:11

RLDS or whatever they call it? Yeah, it is a rogue deal. I mean, it's the, you know, the kind of, it's not the

20:19

Reformed LDS Church, because the Reformed LDS Church is kind of on its way to pseudo -Christianity, you know.

20:25

I think a lot of people, if they get in the RLDS, probably wind up going and getting into a real church.

20:33

It's the fundamentalist Mormons, you know, and they typically are in very rural areas, out of way from everybody, and like St.

20:44

George, Utah, you know, that kind of thing. Okay. Steve, you were telling me off -air about special revelation.

20:50

Comes in kind of handy if you want to have more than one sexual partner, and you're married, and then you tell your wife, hey,

20:59

God told me, better zip your lip about me being with some 14 -year -old or whatever he was doing. Yeah, I mean,

21:05

Joseph Smith, you know, he's already had another wife, in fact

21:12

I think he had a few wives by the time he got this revelation, so -called revelation,

21:18

Doctrine and Covenants 132, and in part of it, it reads to Emma Smith, verse 54, and I command mine handmaid,

21:30

Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and in none else. But if she will not abide this commandment, she shall be destroyed, saith the

21:39

Lord. For I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

21:45

I mean, now keep in mind, this is allegedly God telling

21:50

Joseph Smith, who then reports this to Emma Smith, by the way, God told me last night, if you don't abide, he's going to destroy you.

21:59

And did she obey? As far as I know, yeah. Yeah. You know, I once, you wouldn't know this, but I once had a part in a musical that was written about Emma and Joseph, and I was -

22:10

You know what? I'm learning more about you as time goes on. And I was Joseph, and, you know... You were Joseph.

22:17

Yeah. Well, at least the other day I met someone who has been baptized more than you have.

22:23

We have a young lady at the church with Mormon background, so... Amazing. Uh -huh. Well, the good news for all of us, when we meet

22:31

Mormons, even if we don't know anything about them, like Pastor Steve, if you give

22:36

God's Word, as much Bible as you can give, that's how God saves people, right? Through the power of His Word.

22:43

And even though you might not understand pre -existence, pre -existence, then you preach the

22:49

Bible, right? Yeah, and - Here's what the Bible says. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. And you know, it's like, and this would be the testimony of many former

22:59

Mormons. You know, you encourage them to read the Bible. My brother used to read the Bible every day so that he could preach, because he was on a mission, wanted to preach the

23:08

Mormon gospel from the King James Bible. And the more he studied, the more he realized the

23:15

Bible didn't line up with Mormon doctrine. And I mean, it's pretty hard. If you study it, you just can't come to those kind of conclusions.

23:22

So he started asking questions while he was on his mission and started getting punished for asking questions, right?

23:30

And eventually he was allowed to go home, and that's a long story. But the same kind of thing with me.

23:36

When I, I'd already left the Mormon church physically and emotionally in every way, started reading the

23:42

Bible. And you know, when you really understand who Jesus is, like, I mean, my epiphany really was in while I was reading the book of Isaiah, of all things.

23:52

And when you realize who he is and, you know, mighty

23:57

God, eternal father, you know, and it says a wonderful counselor. And I, it just meant so much to me to think about Jesus as this wonderful counselor or a wonderful comma counselor, whichever.

24:12

Just kind of contemplating that and being convicted by it and just really being moved by the idea that Jesus knew everything about me, right?

24:20

This idea of omniscience came to me and, you know, understanding that Jesus knew everything about me and died for me anyway.

24:27

And I'm like, I can remember thinking, I don't even like me. You know, I wouldn't do that. And Jesus loved me and died for me.

24:33

It was overwhelming to me. So I mean, that's kind of to give you an idea, the difference between Mormonism and Christianity is just this savior who is nothing like us in Christianity.

24:47

In Mormonism, he's just like us, only better. And we need that other. We need that God, man, you know, who sacrificially came to earth, had no reason other than he wanted to redeem us.

25:04

That's why he came here. Good word from Pastor Steve. My name is Mike Abendroth, Steve Cooley, www .nocompromiseradio

25:10

.com, God bless you. No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

25:18

Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life transforming power of God's word through verse by verse exposition of the sacred text.

25:28

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at six. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston.

25:35

You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.