August 30, 2016 Show with Marc Grimaldi on “Reformers in Need of Reforming: Time to Pull Some Weeds From Our Own Front Lawn!”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnton.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on

the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on

this 30th day of August 2016.

And we are going to be joined, God willing, momentarily by my former pastor

who is Mark Rimaldi of Grace Reformed Baptist Church

of Merrick, Long Island, New York.

That's Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island is the official name.

And we have just been experiencing some phone problems here, but I think that I

may have had them resolved within the next, within the last couple of minutes.

So hopefully we are going to be joined by Mark Rimaldi very soon.

And if you'd like to join us on the air with your questions, our email address is ChrisArnton at

gmail .com.

ChrisArnton at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA.

And today our topic with Pastor Mark Rimaldi is going to be a very,

I think, important topic, especially for those who think that I have been preaching to the

choir for most of my program.

And perhaps many of my like -minded Christians who are theologically reformed and Calvinistic have been

loving that.

But I think from time to time we've got to pull some weeds out from our own front lawn.

And that's why we are discussing reformers in need of reforming.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, my friend, my former pastor,

Mark.

Rimaldi.

Thanks, Chris.

It's always a pleasure to be on here.

Thank you, brother.

And it is.

Absolutely amazing.

I've been doing this program for over a year now, and that is the first time I gave out the wrong number

for one of my guests.

I don't know how I did that.

Maybe premature dementia.

I'm not really sure what's happening.

But I'm glad I finally figured out my own phone number in time to get you back on the program.

And we've also got some very good news for those of you who heard Pastor Mark on

our last interview when we discussed his book, Gossip the Church Killer.

That was only in manuscript form at that time.

But that book is now finally in print.

So before we go into our discussion on reformers

in need of reforming and even talking about your book that is now in print, Gossip the Church Killer,

let our listeners know who have not heard you on this program before, or perhaps they don't know who you

are at all, and they might not even know what a Reformed Baptist is.

But tell us about Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in.

Merrick, New York.

Yeah, Grace Reformed Baptist Church, as you said, Chris, and as the title says, it's a Reformed Baptist church.

And what that means is that the principles of the

Reformation, as well as, and to

Baptists as well.

Yeah, and I can

remember years ago, many years ago, when.

Before Family Radio went down the toilet theologically, I had my friend and

an acquaintance of yours, Dr. James R. White, he was interviewed on Family Radio.

And I can still remember my friend, who I'm not going to announce his name because of his blunder here.

But when he was interviewing James, he said, so you say you're a Reformed Baptist,

what are you now?

And in other words, he was using the term Reformed Baptist as if, like a Reformed alcoholic or a Reformed

drug addict.

He used to be a Baptist and now he's, but that's not what you're talking about.

You're talking about those of us who are theologically in

harmony with the Protestant Reformers.

Wouldn't you say that we and our forefathers before us who were Baptist took the

Reformation principles, the five solos of the Reformation, especially solo scriptura,

to its logical conclusion and continued to reform and continued to

do things only the way the scriptures prescribed them?

And therefore, they came to the conclusion that only believers were to be baptized?

Yeah, amen.

Yeah, we did follow in the footsteps of the Reformers insofar as we believe them to be biblical.

And just like all of us throughout all ages, none of us are perfect.

And let's talk a little bit before we go into our theme about Reformers in need of

reforming.

Your book is now in print, Gossip the Church Killer.

Tell us about why you wrote that book and explain a little bit more about it.

And those of you who missed Pastor Mark's interview on Iron Sharpens Iron on that subject

can go to our archive at any point after the show and go into the search

engine, into the older programs or podcasts and type in

gossip and you will find this subject that we addressed.

But if you could tell our listeners.

More about it.

Yeah, Chris, I actually wrote the bulk of the manuscript of that book probably about eight

or nine years

ago, the

hearts and

thoughts of others and how things can spread and just the great damage it causes.

We tend to think in the big sins, right, fornication or adultery,

you know,

sins often.

And I think sometimes the idea of gossip, and yet it's one

I think if we're honest, we think not not to be not to be too comical

about it.

But as I was giving out the book for the pro.

Yeah, somebody told me about that, Mark.

They got back to you already.

It is serious, and it really does tremendous damage.

I think we don't we tend to not see that.

The dangers of.

And we do have a very important announcement to make about this book.

Anybody who purchases Gossip the Church Killer by Pastor Mark Grimaldi will also get a

free one year subscription to the National Enquirer.

So

but this is this is an excellent this is the type of book because of its brevity.

And I'm assuming coinciding with that, that it's very reasonably priced.

This is the kind of book that every church should have, like, at least a

couple of dozen of them in their track racks, because of that, because of the prevalence of this sin.

Yeah, I've given in fact, I've given.

Out a free copy to all of our church members.

Because of it is it is that important.

And I made it I like you said, I intentionally made it brief or short.

It's maybe about I have in front of me.

It's under 90 pages in that area.

And the reason is we tend to unfortunately, and I don't mean this in a critical way, but we tend to be so busy today that we look at

a book in the

past as we consider.

And if they do want to get it, it'd be better for them to get it for

me.

Yeah.

And I strongly recommend that you do.

If you're a pastor or a deacon who may be in charge of refilling

the track rack in your church, I would suggest that you get a case of these or something

because this sin is just so prevalent.

I would be I don't think that I would be going over the top to

say that it may be the most violated sin in the Christian church

next to the violation of the first commandment.

But the the sin of gossip is just so prevalent, because even the best

of men often, I think, find themselves drifting into that on occasion.

Yeah.

And when and again, when you look in the scriptures, and you know how important our words are, how important and

I'm not, I'm not, you know, putting forth the idea of the word of things and all that

kind of nonsense, but just the way our words affect people, they can be used for great good, we can speak and

edify and be a means of grace, according to, you know, we can do or we can tear down, you know,

God is ordained to use the whole

idea of building up the body and how do you do that?

It's without words.

And God uses that most important

ways of growth is by speaking the truth and love.

And so we want to

take making that which can cause.

Okay, great.

Well, as I said.

Before, folks, we have already interviewed Mark on this subject.

So if you'd like to go to the archive after the show is over, we advise that you don't do that right now.

So you can hear the live.

But if you could go to the archive and look up gossip in the podcast or

older program search engine, and you will find that interview and I hope that you are

blessed by it.

And I hope that.

Your life is changed by it.

And more importantly, and also Chris, just for one, and you're probably going to say this as well, anybody who contacts you with the

through your, I guess, through email, whoever that works, if they give you their address.

Oh, great.

I appreciate that very much.

Uh, well, the subject at hand is very controversial.

I think that it would be hard to find an honest

person or an honest Christian person who does not think that self examination is

important.

And even self examination when it comes to a whole, not only church,

but theological movement, that that one needs to be involved in some self

reflection on things that may be going on that are not

pleasing to God, things that we may overlook on a regular basis.

And you have done this in an article you wrote that took some guts because uh,

it's always like treading on thin ice, it seems when you are

criticizing a theological movement, even if you belong to it yourself.

And I think that since we who are theologically reformed rightfully

obey the heeding of the apostle Paul to look out for false

teachers, we're not supposed to be uh, lackadaisical and happy go lucky and,

and uh, just sing Kumbaya with everyone who says that they love the Lord.

Uh, we are to examine what people teach, especially if they are in leadership or if they

are considered to be mentors of others, people who are in the media and so on,

whose teachings are made public.

We are to be very critical and examine them just as Paul commended the Bereans for doing

that.

He didn't get upset, even though he was an apostle.

He didn't get bent out of shape and get his feelings hurt.

And well, even if he did get his feelings hurt, he didn't write about that.

He, he commended them for their, uh, examining every word that he said by the word of

God.

And, uh, so we are to do the same and you have done this in this article.

What was the initial motivation for you to write this article, Reformers in Need of a Reformation?

Yeah, Chris, that's a good question.

Yeah.

Uh, it's something that's built up, I think, over time, the

split, um, also the,

just the, um, the different Facebook

online

that's been going on,

just following a lot of that and, and, uh, just being grieved over the

extent that people have gone, do damage to the,

in their emphasis,

sustaining theology in general and how far, how people have gone with that.

And, and I think we've lost sight in some ways of some of them,

um, you know, with you and I both.

And I think we will, uh, and that's not just because it's attractive to us.

It's probably not attractive at all to the, to the natural man.

It's not.

But when you get to understand the truth of reformed theology, when we see, when we examine the scriptures, that these things are indeed true and

correct, when we have a proper understanding of our own sin nature and of just the glory of God and his grace and his power and

being, we love these truths.

We're jealous for them, but it's the doctrines of all

those wonderful teachings and principles.

Um, they light up, you know, they light up our souls.

We are jealous to see God and Christ glorified and at the center of all theology.

And that driving the ship is a passion for Christ.

And we don't want to be man -centered.

We want to be Christ -centered.

So those things are really, really just awesome.

And, and, uh, I would never trade that for the world.

Uh, my problem is not with the theology.

And sometimes, unfortunately, people tend to look at the way that we live as reformers

and they judge the theology as being the problem.

But the reality is that even reformed people, the reformed truths are sinners.

We still struggle.

Um, the problem is not with theology.

I believe it's with our failure to preach and teach.

And I think when we get down to the practical theology of reformed teaching, you know, I think

that, you know, everybody has, if you look at any, um,

denomination that's within the realm of true Christianity, everybody has their weakness.

You know, we're all

sinners.

Something that's, um,

sin patterns, you know, the one that letter

written to that church, we're prone to losing our first love.

We're prone to losing sight of some of the practical elements of living these things out and getting so caught up

of theology and the depths of kind of what drove me

in this.

Direction.

Well, the first thing, the observation that you start off with, and I'm kind of glad that I didn't give out your

home address and introducing you because you may have reformed Baptists carrying torches circling your house

for this one, but you start off with an overemphasis on preaching.

Now that's going to really startle some folks and get some hair standing back on the,.

Standing up in the back of their necks.

Yeah.

You know, and even in writing that it's funny, Chris, it's, it's one of those things where you, you almost shake a little bit or feel a

little uneasy saying that, uh, because preaching as I, and I say it in there is the most important means of

grace, right?

It's, we can't, um, you know, say enough about the importance of preaching, especially

in a, in a broader culture that really has very little respect for preaching.

So from the standpoint of broader Christianity, we need to emphasize preaching more, but from within the

standpoint of our own, uh, in our own,

the most important means of grace,

but it's not the only means of grace and

preaching alone doesn't determine the success of a ministry.

You could be a great preacher and gifted in so many ways.

And generally those in the reformed faith, you know, we, we tend to look up to those, those kinds of people, but you can be gifted with

preaching and yet really have a, a poor ministry because of a failure to live

out, um, you know, the very basics for loving

others.

And now, uh, I have

heard some pastors that have been friends of.

Mine for quite a while.

Uh, in the past I have had, uh, conversations with those that,

uh, have such perhaps an unbalanced view of preaching

that they bristle at the idea of even counseling people privately.

Uh, I, I've actually had some friends of mine in the ministry when I've asked about that,

do you do marital counseling?

Do you provide counseling for this or that?

Word of God is my counselor to my, my congregation.

Uh, I just preach and that's where they get the information that they need

is I preach the whole council of God and that's where they get the information that they need to live a godly life and to

address every problem that they may face in life.

So therefore we really don't do a lot of emphasis on that.

How do you react to that?

And indeed, by the way, have you heard that as well or is that something that I've, I've, I've heard those.

Kinds of things.

Absolutely.

In fact, I was listening to a sermon one time several years ago, um, from a dear brother

who I love who was, and, uh, and I wouldn't highlight his entire ministry in, in this way.

I think he's very blessed and a good man of

God, but he had reformed baptism to all of

evangelicalism.

And one of the things he said just really troubled me.

And he talked about how, um, you know, how important the sermon preparation is, which it is in doctoral studies.

Again, we're not, we're not denying how important those things are, but he came to the point where, and maybe it was just an element of

overexcitement.

We tend to do that, but he's like, you know, when I'm, when I'm in my study, you know, and, uh, you know, in church moments, members come

calling, you know, there's a do not disturb sign on my door, you know, that kind of thing.

And I just felt like, man, that's, that's just, um, you know,

that, that Adamson calls and

people are coming and nagging about every little thing yet you have to be, you know, you have to have a balance there and be careful that you give proper time to

study.

But man, Christ didn't just preach to the people.

He did.

That was great.

But he was among them.

He loved them.

He served them.

You know, what happened to the foot washing principle?

I don't mean that in a literal sense, like let's start washing people's feet.

You know, if we were in a culture, we're wearing sandals and walking through dirt and so on.

And it's fine.

But, but yet the whole principle there of, of serving one another, he was speaking to his apostles, he thought

of the church, um, and what they would do to each other and others.

And, and he talks about, you know, a servant is not greater than his master.

And John 17, you go to the end of the book of John, what was the emphasis that teaching?

In fact, preaching wasn't even really there as much.

It was more on the love that they needed to have for one another.

And this, you know, so again, there's an abuse of that love concept outside of reform to reform,

you know, the reform realm, you know, all you need is love, the typical Beatles type thing, throw out your

doctrine and you know, who cares?

And just welcome everybody, even with their sin into the, into the, into the, uh, the church membership.

And I'm not talking about that again.

I'm talking about within the confines of reform theology, you know, we need to open that door of love up a

bit wider and get away from this idea of like, let's have just a preaching elder.

He just gets up there, preaches, prepare sermons.

He's behind the curtains.

And then you have all kinds of other elders and no, you

don't see the Lord Jesus Christ doing that.

The disciples do that.

They, they knew the sheep, you know, they, they sought to get to know them.

They were among them.

They loved them.

They served them.

They counseled with them.

Uh, that's the kind of thing that, that troubles me.

It's this idea of like the alien preacher.

And the interesting thing, Chris, is

when you, you get

to know them, it opens up the people's ears wider to hear the preaching because they know this man

loves them.

They know, they know him in some sense.

Again, that you're not best friends.

You can't take everybody in the church to go to the movies or out to dinner, but I'm saying that they know this

person.

They know he cares when you're distant.

It tends to shut the ears of people.

You know, people are saying, Oh, well, this guy's saying all these things.

He doesn't even know why he doesn't even care.

Um, so, so I'm just saying it's that, that idea of the overemphasis on preaching.

I don't believe that there should be a, you know, a, um, this idea of a, of

only preaches.

When I look at the example of Christ and his apostles, you know, I think all the shepherds are in some way to get to know the

flock.

Amen.

And, um, I, when you were, when you were, uh, speaking about that, a part of your objection

to the over overemphasis of preaching, I just flashed in my head, an image of

Nicodemus creeping through the night, holding a lantern and then reaching a door and holding up the light

to the door.

And there'd be a sign on the door saying, do not disturb.

You know, one of the examples I gave in the, in the, uh, real quick in the, in the, uh, the article that I wrote, I said, you know, I could picture,

and another brother had had pointed this out years ago too.

Um, I could picture the, you know, the, the parable of the, the good Samaritan, you know, when you have the man who was robbed by

this man over, right, where the Levite and the priest, they would have been representative of the preacher in

the sense of that time.

And, uh, and I could just picture that, that, that priest or that, that

Levite, you know, thumbing through, you know, the works of John Owen, as they just walked by and ignored that guy and

didn't go and band, you know, bandage up his wounds and put them on the donkey.

And, you know, but of course the Samaritan, uh, was the one who did it.

And I, I just think that that aspect of the ministry is, is, is important as well, you know, without diminishing

the preaching.

And obviously you do not believe that pastors should make

themselves susceptible to burnout by having some kind of an open door policy where

at any time, uh, congregants could contact them to address their problems, because

obviously not only would that burn out a pastor very quickly, but it would also rob

him of, uh, rob his family of time that he is commanded by the

scriptures to have with his wife and his children and so on.

Yeah.

There has to be wisdom.

Absolutely.

Chris.

And that's part of the balance there is you can't just write, you can go to the other extreme and it becomes, you know, more of, you know,

more of a philanthropist type thing.

And, you know, you're, you're doing all kinds of good for all people, which is wonderful, but now you're neglecting, you are neglecting the study

of the word, even, you know, the ethical exposition of preparing

properly.

And, and also your family, like you said, yeah, I mean, and that often happens, um, you know, and, and with ministers,

the gospel in general, that's a big struggle, you know, to properly love and care for your family.

And they tend to see your family tends to see out the door for others, but when they have

needs, you know, uh, they're kind of shut out.

And, and, uh, and I think that's enough, that's a whole nother radio program right there.

Yeah.

Well, uh, we're going to go to observation.

Two when we come back from the break, uh, that is connecting all the dots, all the theological dots.

And that's obviously something else that people are going to be listening to that

title of a subheading and say, oh, don't tell me he has problems with that.

Now I'm really getting mad here.

Um, because we are, we are obviously to, uh, seek, uh, for

theological purity, but I guess this, uh, also can affect even in an area of sin,

the way we view others and become overly, um, judgmental and, uh,

and even, uh, deny fellowship to those for whom Christ died

that, uh, are truly born again brethren, but who disagree with us in

certain levels, but we'll, we'll talk about that more when we get back from the break.

And as I said earlier, if you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsonatgmail .com.

Chris Arnson.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arms.

And if you just tuned us in our guest for the full two hours today is Pastor Mark Grimaldi.

He is one of two pastors at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York.

He labors alongside Doug Totter, another one of my former pastors there at Grace, which

was my last congregation before moving here to Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And tell all those dear brothers and sisters that I miss them very much over there next time you

see some of them, Mark.

Yes, sir.

And we have been discussing and will continue to discuss reformers in need

of reformation.

And we will also accept questions about Pastor Mark's new

book that is in print on Gossip the Church Killer.

And any general question on reform theology or theology in general

will be acceptable as well.

And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Before I move on to that second observation of connecting all the dots,

I guess this question from Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York can kind

of dovetail with that.

Tyler asks, Why is it that so many non -Calvinistic brothers in the Lord continue

to reject the doctrines of grace?

I think that's obviously you could spend a year doing that every day, that same

subject.

But there's obviously different reasons that are specific to individuals.

But the doctrines of grace themselves, don't they reveal that we owe

all of our enlightenment and all of our blessings to God, even the discovery and

our embrace of the doctrines of grace?

Isn't that even something that the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to?

Yeah, and I think, Chris, with that, and again, like you said, there are more than one, there's probably more than several

reasons that certainly God, you know.

But what I would say, to me, one of

the things that generally is

the mind, and I know for me, when I first came to reform faith and came to

embrace the doctrine, why is

it that, you know,

if somebody can't come of their own free will to Christ, doesn't it mean that

that's not fair?

And why give the gospel to them?

You know, is it really freely given to these people?

When you start getting into some of that kind of logic, you can

sympathize with what they're saying.

But again, I think that when you study these things out from Scripture, when you pray about these things, and

God opens up our understanding more about our own hearts and the nature of sin, and moves it out of what's

at stake, you start to not only appreciate these doctrines, but to actually love them, because we know,

you know, you and I, Chris, who understand a little bit of the depths of our own sin and our own hearts, we know that we would absolutely not

even for a moment come to Christ and desire to go in His direction and

generate us and so on.

So I don't think it's, and I think most, a lot of those people would say, you know, a lot of our minions would say that, yeah,

you know, God gets all the glory.

In other words, they would see it as a straw man, us saying that.

But we, of course, know from when you follow through with the logic of what they believe, in

some way, gives man some glory.

I mean, it's inevitable.

They would not say that, but I'm saying that you can't help but avoid that.

But I think it comes down to that fairness issue.

You know, it's a hard pill to swallow at first until you really wrestle through it, and God gives you the grace.

I remember praying as I went through this struggle years ago.

I said, Lord, please, if this is true, make it come for me.

Your truth is supposed to be comforting.

You know, this is not comforting to me.

Please, you know, make it a pillow to my soul, and in time, not only that it will show me the

truth, it will show me the grace.

Oh, yeah.

When I first came to believe in the doctrines of grace, of course, you remember our dear brother

who's now in glory, Nigel Stone.

I remember when our former pastor, Mike Gaydosh, was,

when I was a very new Christian and started to attend the Bible study he was conducting,

he was bringing up these things about predestination, and I was like getting panicky.

I was like, what?

What do you believe?

And I really said to the elders when they were interviewing me for baptism, I love you guys.

I really want this to be my church.

I really feel like I am at home here.

I really feel like I could trust you as shepherds and leaders.

I love the people, but I don't know if I'm ever going to become a Calvinist.

This just is out of outer space somewhere.

I just, I can't even imagine ever believing this.

Nigel Stone gave me a booklet, George Whitefield's Letter to John Wesley on Election, and

George Whitefield had all the biblical answers to John Wesley's questions,

which included my questions and even more that John Wesley had, and

those biblical refutations just opened up my eyes.

The Lord just used those scripture verses to open my eyes to the truth, but initially I hated it.

I said, this is true, but this is horrible.

But then within, probably within a month, I fell in love with those teachings.

But wouldn't you say that before we move on to the observation you made as far as Tyler's

question, wouldn't you say that another reason, another earthly reason

why people reject these things is very often they are hearing about them from people who are misrepresenting

them.

They're not even reading those that champion these teachings like the great Reformers and people

like the 19th century Prince of Preachers, Charles Spurgeon, and many of the other

biblically sound Orthodox heroes of the faith.

They're not reading the doctrines of grace from them.

They are reading about it from their enemies.

Yeah, I think, yeah, it's very.

Clear that every time when I've read, you know, that

I can recall, and

even just, you know,

to me, even when you're trying to explain the doctrines of election to someone, you can't just take the scriptures

and throw them like arrows and just, you know, try to prove the point.

You have to also explain, you know, the glory behind all that, what's called the real condition of

man.

And, you know, it's not, if you just pull out the text and say, look, God chose that, you know, it doesn't settle right,

and understandably so, you know, but when you explain the reality of our condition, the reality of our hardness and our heart

and our lostness, the fact that we would all become like Sodom and Gomorrah if it wasn't for the grace of God, and you really chew on

that and just show the love of God and His grace and all those things, it goes a long way.

So they present it in that way, and again, partly because sometimes you get the, what they call, right, what is it, the stagecage

Calvinists who go out there and they just start, you know, throwing it like Poseidon in the water, you know,

throwing the harpoon or whatever at people, and it's just, there's no, you know, you've got to be gracious

and generous to people, you know.

Yeah, I, just for those of our listeners who have no idea what that little phrase was about, cage -stage

Calvinism is a joking way of labeling people that are new converts to

Calvinism and are so overly zealous with such little knowledge that they need to be put in a

cage, because they will just rip people's heads off verbally and, you know,

just get involved in self -righteous condemnation of others, and I

can even remember seeing that happen in Grace Reformed Baptist years ago with some certain members and

so on, where any mention of making a decision for

Christ or choosing God, anything like that, even though it's biblical

language, they would be furious, and it was like, yeah, but he was quoting a scripture

text,.

What are you talking about?

Yeah, there's people, again, like, and I think part of that comes from the influence of people like Harold Camping, where they distort

the means that God uses to eliminate that, you know,

what can I do to be saved?

Well, there's nothing you can do, read your Bible, pray, you know, when the Bible very clearly says repent, you know, believe, you know, we ought to give the

call, and so you do have people, the moment you command someone to do something, in any sense, it becomes a

works gospel.

Yeah, I can remember.

Years ago, I met a pastor who became Presbyterian, he

was a Baptist, he was an Arminian Baptist who became Presbyterian, and he was showing me his

church building, and above the baptismal tank that

was in the church, there was a

scripture verse that said,

whosoever will, let him come, and he told

me that he wanted to remove that from the wall, and I said, why?

And he said, because it sounds Arminian to me.

Sounds like scripture to me.

Yeah, I know, that's what I said.

He goes, we don't want to give the wrong impression, and with the wrong impression, you mean about what

the Word of God says?

I mean, obviously, people misinterpret that

all it means is anybody that wants to may come, it doesn't mean that anybody is able to come,

but anyway, the observation that you had

was about making sure that

connecting all the dots,.

The theological dots, can become a problem.

Yeah, I think, Chris,

when you can see that, because

even about things having to do with the character of God, or, I mean, the essence of God,

you wind up in some trouble with that.

You know, you had, like, Francis Turretin, for example, who was one of the most brilliant, and

he's a guy who probably forgot more than I know, and

yet he didn't believe that Mary had had any other children

after Jesus, because the womb was sanctified.

You know, he just came up with this whole philosophy, but you know, and so, again, if you

read anything this guy writes, it's just stellar.

Yeah, Francis Turretin was a great influence of Calvin, wasn't he?

God's tremendous, yeah, yeah, yeah, and in every sense he would be to anyone who would read him, he's very well written, you know,

and I think today, I think we tend to, now again, let me preface, again,

I'm not talking about, within broader evangelicalism amongst the whole of us,

we need to emphasize more, in a sense, of the importance of doctrine, because there's many people today who can give a hoot about doctrine, you know, and they

just throw it out the window and don't see that you can't live without doctrine.

In fact, how you live is in

doctrine, teach them the truth, and so on.

However, my issue is, and again, this has to do with the balance, I just think we need to

widen the teeth on our theological combs a little bit.

I think sometimes we narrow certain doctrines so far down to try to dissect

when you're dealing with issues of God, and then

we divide over these things, and one of the things that I faced

last year when I was like, look, you know, the reform is

already

amongst

even a fraction of

these things, and sometimes

people feel they have to dissect everything of it and connect every dot, and let me just give you one example,

the union of the

two natures of Christ.

We know, right, that Jesus is fully God and fully man.

When he became man, right, he didn't get rid of his divinity and throw it out the window and lose that, and at the same time,

he didn't, he wasn't so, the emphasis is not so much on him just being fully God that he loses his humanity,

and he becomes, you know, more of like a phantom spirit that overcomes the flesh, whatever, he was fully God and fully man.

Now, we don't understand that, and we can make,

live off those, when you try to

connect those two dots and logicize everything about how that happens, you can wind up

into some serious heresy, and that's what happened with, you know, with the Thetis and the Arianus and so on throughout the.

So, in other words, much learning can make you mad?

Yeah, study theology, and I'm not even saying don't study deep

theology, you know, don't get into any of these.

Breathe her, respect one another, even when we have some differences about

these things, you know, and love one another, and also don't know, right

now is last

year, and

they're writing papers and

they're writing

books to

serve the Lord, you know, we have all eternity to learn more and more about some of these things about God,

and therefore, you

know, some more time in some of these other more important basic areas of Christianity, like loving your brother, you know,

like reaching out for the lost, like evangelizing,.

And so on.

Amen.

We do have a listener from all the way in Kinross, Scotland.

Oh, wow.

Murray, he says, candidates for the ministry are generally assessed

on their ability to preach.

When they finish their studies, they are then called again based on their preaching.

Do you think it is unfair to assume that every minister or pastor will automatically

also have the gifts of an elder, and could it be time to reassess the way we view the

ministry?

And he has a follow -up question too, but I'll let you address that first.

So I guess, is there such a thing as somebody who might be a pastor whose sole

role is to preach and not necessarily govern or shepherd?

I think that's what he's saying, but I don't know.

Maybe you can get a different...

Yeah, when I look at,.

And again, I realize there's differences of opinion on this, and so on.

I want to be careful with

that.

You know, shepherds, presbyters, all those are used.

It does speak about those who let's

say in the area of teaching.

So we're not saying that every leader in the church has to be equal in their

giftedness of teaching or leadership, and part of what makes an eldership a blessing, you'd hope, is that

there's a sense of complementing one each other and supplementing one each other.

One person may lack a little bit in this area, and the other one fills that gap, and teaching may be one of those areas where somebody may not be

as up to the same level, let's say, as somebody else.

So that's understandable.

But I do believe every elder needs to be someone

who is involved in some...

I don't think my opinion is that not just someone, a teaching elder, who all he does

is preach and teach and does not know the people.

I don't think that's scriptural.

I think that...

Let that person be in a seminary, if they want to do that.

Let them teach in a seminary, but not in the pastor, not being in an eldership of the church.

I don't see that as...

I'm not sure if that's exactly what he's asking there, but I do think

that every elder should have the ability to teach in some sense.

I think in Timothy it says that they're able to teach.

You know, maybe they're not as

wisely.

You know, they have the wisdom of the scriptures in them, so there should be some ability to teach in some sense there.

Yeah, a man might have an ability, a great ability to teach, but he may be a horrible

preacher.

He may preach with a very cold academic approach

that is not really preaching.

You know, he might be more lecturing than...

But when he's sitting down to actually teach somebody, he's very good.

He might even be a seminary professor who is a horrible preacher.

Yeah, yeah, you might, yeah, you'll have elders, let's say, especially if you have a big elder board, there may be some who don't do a lot of

preaching, but they're still involved with maybe with the counseling ministry or with some form of instruction.

In other words, the element of being able to break down scripture should be there in them in some sense.

I think they have to have some, you know, again, but the

young who all they do is teach.

I don't see that when I look.

All right, Murray's follow -up question is, with regard to the imbalance regarding preaching, isn't it

interesting to note that of the church at Jerusalem, we learn in Acts 2,

that they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine, prayer, fellowship, and the breaking of bread.

So I guess what he's saying that preaching isn't in that list.

Yeah, well, what he's talking about there in

Acts, preaching...

Yes, that's what he said.

With regard to the imbalance regarding preaching, that's what he's...

Yeah, yeah, good, yeah, good.

That's a great point, yeah.

And again, like we said before, we're not diminishing the importance of preaching, but to make it the only thing

and to...

Well, I forgot to mention, Tyler, if you give me your mailing address, you are getting a free copy of

the Gospel of...

I'm sorry, Gossip the Church Killer.

And also, Murray in Kinross, Scotland, I usually don't mail

things overseas to our listeners who are in Canada or overseas,

and I know I did break that rule once before with Murray, but I'm going to, since this is

especially a lightweight book, it's not going to cost that much postage, I will break the rule here

and I will send Murray also a copy of the book Gossip the Church

Killer by Mark Romaldi.

So if you both could give me your mailing addresses, that would be great.

We have David in Ada, Ohio.

I have a passion for studying the Word.

I use a Bible study program, Word Search, others are Logos and Accordance,

just to name three of many.

I also know of a pastor who does not want to use such programs.

He feels using handheld books are better for him, but he is also pressed for time a

lot.

How do you feel about the time saved and quality of study from such programs?

Wow, that's a good question.

Again, I think to each his own, you know, I wouldn't condemn someone either way.

Some people are more from maybe a traditional older, you know, generation, you know,

able to turn the pages and,

you know, and using those programs to get it

parsed.

In an instant, other people like Owen from,

you know, learning

these programs, it looks scary for some of the older generation, you know.

I know there's people who preach,

you know, from tablets and things like that, and there's other people who, I've done that, but I'm more preaching

from printed out pages now I use for my notes, you know.

So it's just, I think that's more of an issue of comfort and, you know, people can kind of recommend it

to each other, but I wouldn't either way on that, but more power to

me.

Yeah, God indeed has a sense of humor because I can.

Remember making fun of my parents for their inability to operate a

VCR and things like that, and now I am instructed on

my computer, my using the computer and other, my

cell phone even, by, you know, children are teaching me how to use my cell phone

and my computer and so on, and, you know, because I, just like my father, he

could not catch up with the state -of -the -art technology back then, I am also at a

loss there.

So God does have a sense of humor.

He's like chastising me for me mocking my own father, I guess.

Right, getting you back.

But thank you.

Oh, and David, give me your full mailing address, and you are also getting compliments of Pastor Mark Romaldi,

a copy of his book, Gossip the Church Killer.

And we do have another listener, Seth in

Randleman, North Carolina.

How would you respond to a fellow pastor who says a balanced

Calvinist, who says he's a balanced Calvinist, stating he believes salvation is

both of God and man?

Basically, he says he's a synergist with the above stipulations.

Confusing, I know.

Well, obviously, that would not be any kind of a Calvinist if he said man participated in his salvation, but

there is a difference between that and saying that God receives all the glory, but man is also

totally accountable.

Those are different things, aren't they?

Yeah, yeah.

I was just thinking, and Chris, as you were saying, and I was saying, well, that's an ominous, that's not really a balanced Calvinist, what he

described.

But what I would say, yeah, I mean, again, the danger is to confuse Calvinism with

hyper -Calvinism.

And this also comes to, that's what

happens with some people who are in the hyper -Calvinistic camp, who go so far as

to become, really teach both things.

They very clearly teach that God, he ordains all things

whatsoever come to pass, right?

Nothing happens outside of his will.

And yet, at the same time, man is accountable.

When we sin, we sin of our own desire, our own will.

And we have to

be careful not to let one overshadow the other.

What I mean by that is we don't want to look at God's sovereignty and say, okay, well, since God is completely sovereign and does whatever he

wants, and it doesn't matter what I do, I'm like a robot, then who cares, you know, why even do anything?

Let me just kind of, you know, just...

The other extreme is to see it, you know, things so much...

We take, you know, we

take unnecessary risks, or we jump the gun, or we do things in the arm of the

flesh and don't rest in the sovereignty of God.

And we're not, we're not having a sense of peace of all things, and we worry or become

anxious.

You know, we take things into understanding

that things go together.

But I wouldn't say that man has any part in his salvation.

You know, we believe in monogysm, right?

Of course, as those who are of the Reformed faith, you know, salvation is completely of God.

And even the good that we...

One thing that I like to

say, too, you know, that

we do, we've done.

We're responsible for it.

Yeah, and as others have said before us, the only thing that we contribute to our salvation is our sin,

which we lie at the feet of Jesus and beg him to forgive us for it and cleanse us from it.

And I would ask this, Seth, I would ask this pastor who

says that both God and men are responsible for

his salvation, or for the salvation in general, is I would say to him, so what percentage

of the glory does God get for our salvation?

I would just ask him that question.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, he gets all of it.

Well, what do you mean by that?

You just said that it's both God and men.

You know, I mean, these people are very rarely consistent when.

They reject the doctrines of grace.

Yeah.

We're not saying that, right?

We're not saying that we're not responsible to respond to the gospel, right?

We're not saying that when we preach the gospel that people are not responsible to respond.

Of course, they're responsible to respond, and they're guilty if they reject what we are saying,

right, if they do.

Right, even our

faith.

Is a gift.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

And even our longing to come to Christ, even our repentance, it's all a gift if we

are truly of the elect and if we are truly a regenerate.

This all comes from God, and it's amazing how men, even

in many respects, very godly men who reject the doctrines of grace, it's amazing how angry people get

when you try to take away every ounce of credit from man and give all the

glory to God.

Some people just hate it.

They just can't stand that, and that is a mystery, but why would somebody who's

born again would react that way?

That's what I mean.

It's a mystery.

It's not a mystery when men who are unregenerate do that, but we have to go to a break right

now, and we're going to be back with Pastor Mark Romaldi after these messages.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God, or am I trying

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Sarnes and if you just tuned us in, our guest for the full two hours with one hour to go is

Pastor Mark Romaldi, one of the pastors at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island

in Merrick, New York.

We are discussing reformers in need of reformation and if you'd like to join us on the

air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

We are also opening up the discussion to any general theological question you may have

and the issue of gossip which is the theme of Pastor Mark Romaldi's

new book, Hot Off the Press, Gossip the Church Killer.

We had already addressed this theme with Pastor Mark in the recent past so we didn't

address it again but you can at some point go to the archive of ironsharpensironradio

.com and you can hear that interview on the podcast archive or past or

older broadcasts I believe it says at the top of the website page.

You could join us today with a question of your own.

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Murray again from Kinross, Scotland offered this wonderful quote when it

comes to those who major on the minors

regarding doctrine.

He says I don't know if you think this is relevant but with regard to those who major on doctrine to

the point of judgmentalism and the love we should show in return, William

MacDonald quotes this in his bible commentary.

They drew a circle that shut me out.

Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.

But love and I had the wit to win.

We drew a circle that took them in.

I like that.

Praise God.

Well thank you.

I think that would sound much better brother Chris if you did that with a Scottish accent though.

Yeah but Murray would very quickly recognize that it was flawed

so I don't want to embarrass myself.

Well let me let me try.

They drew a circle that shut me out.

Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.

But love and I had the wit to win.

We drew a circle that took them in.

And right now you could actually hear from all the way in Kinross, Scotland somebody laughing named

Murray because he thinks that was a horrible impression of his his fellow neighbors

there in Kinross.

Great quote.

Yeah it is.

This every jot and every tittle and having all

the I's dotted and T's crossed, it becomes especially

sad when those who have so much in common have become

bitter enemies at times.

And I know division that has occurred

even amongst close formerly close brethren over the day on which the

Lord's Supper is celebrated.

I mean it can be absolutely reach a point of

lunacy when this occurs.

How could you really believe in the importance of being an imitator of the Bereans that the

Apostle Paul commended if you immediately, if you like very immediately want everybody to fall into complete

line with you and lockstep.

With you?

Yeah it's you know if you if you take any to in any

concept identify with you know with with all the doctrines

you know you if you ask enough questions you're going to find some kind of a difference somewhere.

And that's why I say when you're dealing with especially when you're dealing with issues that we don't even

comprehend and you're trying to logicize those things about like

God's essence.

You know there was a recent debate and I'll be placed to even wrestle through things to a degree but I'm talking

about how far we go and where we create division.

How far we go with giving up our time to these kinds of things.

There's been a recent debate even over the issue of whether or not the Son of God was eternally submissive to

the Father for example and there's been a going back and forth and writings and and again I'm not saying there's no place for that but it's just

the time that goes into an energy into these kinds of things and I'm saying how long do we have to live here on

this earth you know that we're going to create now and it gets heated sometimes and it becomes an issue of division and and then

they start bringing up the slippery slope idea that oh well if you believe that it could lead to here.

We claim that as a fallacy you

know for the gospel.

And of course every non -Calvinist.

Hurls that remark at us about well do you know what that will lead to?

I mean and when you think about it in pure terms of human logic if you believe that

God receives a hundred percent of the glory for our salvation according to

human logic and not taking into consideration the full counsel of God I could very easily

understand why somebody say well.

You're not even going to evangelize anybody then.

Yeah yeah.

I mean if you look at any doctrine can be a slippery

slope into some kind of heresy if you're not if you don't you know rein it in based upon what the scriptures teach and we believe that

God is three in one.

Well if you're not careful you could become a tritheist and worship three gods or you could become one who believes in

you know modalism you know.

So those are all a slippery slope.

Can happen in any sense and and I'm not saying don't ever use that you know as an argument but but by and

large we you know we need to be careful with with with using that as a means of discrediting someone.

Yeah I.

Think that even our Reformed Baptist brethren have a tendency

to wait too long to baptize people because they want to make

sure they really understand all of the teachings that that

specific church wants the person to confess before they are baptized.

And yet when we see in the scriptures when people were baptized they were instantaneously baptized on the profession of their

faith.

You know I mean we're going to reach a point where we're like well now that brother Bill has reached 75 years

old he's really proven himself to be a Christian so therefore we are going to

immerse him.

Oh wait he can't be immersed because he's going to catch pneumonia.

Never mind we can't do it.

He finally embraced or fully understands the you know the confession of faith in all of its

facets.

You know I mean it's like you know how far are you going to squeeze someone through the ringer.

You know I mean I think there's a place to say.

Look you know that

you know that you can't force someone into the mold and have them.

You don't want them to make a profession in about you know.

In fact that we are now we

unconsciously drifted into the third.

Observation too quick to condemn.

We've already been bringing up some of that but if you have.

Anything to add.

Yeah I would just say in a summary sense I would just say that you

know and it

right in our day and age you know you can respond to something

immediately you know whereas in the past you just didn't have this kind of ability to communicate through the internet and all that and it's just things

go back and forth and back and forth and uh and it's just people just want to

pick and everything about anyone.

You know.

And uh you know.

So this guy has got issues here.

And oh wait he said this you know and it's we become like a soundbite uh culture.

Not only in in the culture in general but even within the within the faith.

You know where we start to look at every little thing someone says.

And now we got to address that and they're wrong about that.

And and uh and again I think there's a healthy place to correct someone to correct each other.

You know that's okay to discuss but let's

not.

You don't have to have all the ducks lined up in a row before we can have.

You know just work together and you know provide ministry you know together and get joint hands in some sense

right.

Where is the line of unity.

You know you have like people who want to unite right who don't care like the ecumenical right movement they want to you

know right with roman catholics and you know we know that's dangerous because the gospel's compromised.

But where do we draw the line of which truth how much of every single iota

of which you know what we believe to be true that everybody have to embrace before we can say hey we can associate.

With you you know it's right.

Yeah.

Well because we're sin sinful people we're never going to get these completely

balanced correctly because if we did we'd be perfect.

And that would mean we're already in heaven we've already died we're in glory.

Um.

But uh it is not easy.

Like for instance uh and i i think i could speak publicly about this without any fear of

of uh you know doing wrong here.

But uh somebody that we uh all or shouldn't say all that many of us if

not most of us who are reformed admire is john piper.

And i believe that john piper has aired in the being too loose area

where you know he has had rick warren speak at his conference and he has

brought his conference to rick warren's church and rick warren yeah is in a dangerous

level of of i think heretical understanding i mean if not

actual heresy the condoning of it.

I mean he actually calls uh pope francis his pope.

Yeah.

I mean that that makes no sense at all.

Yeah.

Yeah no i agree with you 100 there was a in fact i put an article uh up

on facebook

question had to do with and uh when i put that up

some um a dear brother put some cloud rick warren just exposed

the line is

drawn because the gospel is part of that article that that i was really trying to get out in that um

in that what that i found interesting and again this was just recently was was was piper

was talking about the role of pentecostalism in the world today.

And and this this message is just let

me read this little this is what he gives his definition

of the people who are believing in the power of the holy spirit believing that the holy spirit

doesn't get the gifts of the holy spirit described in first corinthians 12 are still active today.

So and then he goes on to caution about you know the whole idea of the prospect when he talks about

president separating luckily

the most about this article he says here that that kind of people are the cutting edge of the growth

title of the argument of the article.

He's basically she's showing that that by and large the people who are reaching out with the gospel most

um are pentecostals you know.

And and uh you know he's obviously in his own um

there himself.

But uh but i just found that interesting because i'm saying that what i'm saying with all along i'm saying we as reformers you

know we what we have the greatest doctrine in the entire world that exalts the glory.

Why aren't we the ones who are reaching the most you know why aren't we

out there you know and i think part of the problem on on uh just

the minutiae of debating every little thing and focusing on all kinds of

things that really in the long run don't really matter.

Um we need a more get the gospel out.

You know what you know there's the extreme again well who cares about doctrine.

Just preach the gospel away.

That's wrong.

But we need to say hey we care about the gospel.

You know let's go back a little bit from from getting back and forth on all these little minutiae of doctrine you know

um so i found that article very interesting when i read that i was i was i was it's exactly what i've been saying god is using

more arminians and pentecostals to reach the world than reformers.

Because reformers are too busy debating about whether or not god has.

You know.

And uh this uh is like i said it's an issue that we're never going to strike the right

balance.

Uh some some of us god will use to come closer to a right balance but

unfortunately i guess.

Well since we all have sinful proclivities towards the left or the right

it's one of those things that.

Uh that unfortunately.

Well and i'm not trying to be fatalistic here i'm not saying shouldn't.

You're right i mean we should strive to to correct these things.

That's why we're doing a program like this.

Uh.

Yeah.

But i'm just saying that uh obviously it's going to be difficult to.

Be perfect in our striking the right balance.

And i think like you said yeah we we nobody in right in any sense is going to be perfect.

And even as we try to to go back to come come the other way we can easily fall off the other side of the slope.

Right.

That's our tendency.

But i think like you said i mean it's just that.

The clarion call is here.

You know the the alarm clock is going off if nothing else to wake us up and say look guys let's re

-evaluate what.

We re -evaluate how many

we.

We could do these things to some extent.

But but how much time are we giving in over to these things.

Are we dividing over these things.

Are we you know.

Are we losing that unity with other good brethren over you know minutiae details about the

essence of god and things like that.

Uh you know things that are beyond i think that's what it is more of.

Just like a wake -up call to say hey let's let's work in the

right direction a little more you know.

And uh we have a uh i guess just a.

Word of encouragement here from an old friend of both of ours kurt bracket.

Oh kurt hey from newman georgia says just an agreement with brother murray from scotland and pastor mark

first.

Timothy three two is stating qualifications about an overseer and deacon above

reproach the husband of one wife temperate self -controlled respectable

hospitable able to teach.

I would say teaching could be in the pulpit and also classroom or bible studies

god's word does not say how good compared to others.

I'm not really sure what that last part means.

Maybe you do but he says love the broadcast and my brothers in the lord's voices.

All the way.

Brothers kurt and jenny from newman georgia.

Um now i guess what he is he's saying about talent of preaching.

Here do you think.

Yeah i think he's saying they're kind of reiterating what we were saying before that the the idea is that the ability to teach needs to be there

but it doesn't necessarily of god but it doesn't mean

chemical tattoo.

Yes.

And uh give us

your uh

your new address down there.

In in newman georgia and we'll make sure you get a copy of pastor mark's book.

Yeah uh we have.

Uh now this is something uh i don't know if you already know pastor mac tomlinson of

providence baptist church in denton texas but if you don't you should get to know him.

He's a reformed baptist pastor and he is right on the same page with you in

criticizing reformed folks for being unwilling to learn from non -reformers.

In fact he wrote a very large biography pastor mac tomlinson a very large

biography recently of leonard ravenhill and leonard ravenhill is one of his heroes of.

The faith.

And leonard ravenhill was not a calvinist.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know.

Aw tozer.

Right.

People like that who are just tremendous or even some of you you have people we read they

are four -point calvinists.

Right.

They may have universal view of the atonement.

Jc ryle.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And some of the some some among the uh the reformers appearance even you have some use of language in that at least that makes you think

that way.

Um not all i mean not by and large but but a couple you have in the in that case richard baxter.

Yeah.

Richard baxter i mean in fact no he has some

that there are amongst um some reformers today they they write off

richard baxter altogether because he does have some doctrinal issues there.

But boy he wrote some things there in the reformed pastor that i think we need to look at as pastors.

And i know that people say oh well he was a single if you can't do all that but boy

there are some real good principles there about and i almost

see some people just write him off altogether as like he has no nothing really to say of benefit because he

has some other issues of doctrine that are in question.

Um and i think we tend to do that you know we throw them out the baby out the bath.

Water.

Well i i haven't heard a lot of criticism for baxter over his arminian leanings.

Uh which.

Not arminianism.

Not arminianism uh other issues that that.

Um i don't remember them all but i know there were some some more serious issues that are that are there.

Yeah one of the things that.

Always puzzled me actually about how reform people seem to be so willing to

forgive baxter for his non -reformed views because he's dead and lived a

long time ago whereas today for some reason when somebody's alive people

are much more unforgiving it seems yeah and unwilling to publicly

identify with any of their writings.

Like you know i mean like for instance why is it that uh

you know we can have calvin as such an enormous hero that we uphold

and yet there are some things he believed that are believed by brethren in christ today.

And i'm not even talking about infant baptism because most reformed baptists do not divide over that other than

church membership uh.

But there are other things that calvin believed that uh if if a fellow brother in christ were to

hold on to them today they'd be vilified.

Do you see something in there that.

Death seems to cover a multitude of sins sometimes you know.

There are people though who will go back and just you know who feel the need.

And i'm again i'm not.

I don't want to throw it out the window and say there's never a place for that and i want to be careful but but just feel the need to like write about

the fault of these men.

You know the reality is anyone and everyone yeah

these men are still men

you know that that he did.

They're not to get the glory.

You know if they did everything right we would worship these men.

And we still have trouble you know with worshiping them.

So i think you know when you look at all these either these people who have passed on or even some of the pipe is in

the wash and they're

doing that.

But it's like again the

time.

What what how much time

do we have unifying and getting the

gospel out and not creating it to

stand at 100.

Um again is there a place to

talk point out the different faults and things like that.

Fine but just the.

Extent of we.

But you know something that just occurred to me uh what our discussion so far has proved

irrefutably it is that you have overcome ocd

and by the way pastor mark has written a book on that so i'm not bringing out something from his

closet or something that um but it is.

But i said that as a joke but it's also true because reform

theology would seem to be an enormous magnet to people with ocd.

Yeah yeah no he's certainly in any city.

We don't see they can take in any direction.

You know of just getting too far.

And i think that i

still struggle.

Yeah but i get

there's something about

you know when you when you go to a commentary or you see a book and you see who it's written by and when you realize that that

person is arminian you know immediately there's like something inside as a you know when you're informed that

almost doesn't trust the guy.

You know and i think there's a problem with that.

You know these guys have a lot to offer in in various areas.

You know that maybe we're not going to go to them you know concerning the issues of election but man i've seen some of the as i say

in the article some of the most godly people that i've ever seen or learn from in my life or you read about

were people who never who died as arminian you know but it's not the calvinist now

and you know we need to we need to be able to open up that a little bit more and say hey you know

again we're not talking about word of faith proponents or people who are who compromise the gospel or have real

severe doctrinal issues.

They don't believe in the trinity those kinds of things i'm not talking about that but people within the realm of evangelicalism who who do believe the

gospel but yet have different kinds of beliefs whether it's arminianism or even some charismatic influence in there whatever it

might be these guys you know they have things to offer us and we would do good and well to humble

ourselves in the reform faith to sit in some ways at the feet of these people to learn some things from them if

not doctrinally that they have.

I've seen some of the arminians who honor the lord today and what you

know i just an image.

Ran through my head when you were talking about all these arminians who since they have passed into glory

they're all calvinists.

Now i had just pictured this image of john calvin standing up there in glory and and this this uh

former arminian running towards him and saying brother calvin i've got to apologize to you

because uh wait in line pal and then you see this line of hundreds

of thousands of people millions of people.

But uh well you know chris too.

The typical you know the joke you've heard a million times over i'm sure where you have that you know the the the calvinist guy

or the person dies so -and -so dies and they go to heaven and saint peter's at the gate and he's walking him through the the different

story and as he as he and the

guy goes why he goes yeah in that room is all the calvinists they think they're the only ones here.

The danger yes it is.

And we have to go to our final break right now and if you'd.

Like to join us on the air we've got a half hour to go so if you have a question that you'd like to ask i would

suggest that you do so pretty soon or very soon.

Our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n

gmail .com and please at least give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence.

And obviously give us your full address your full mailing address because pastor mark is giving everybody a

copy of his book.

Gossip the church killer who writes in with a question.

So we look forward to hearing from you uh after these messages so don't go away we'll be

right back.

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Welcome back.

This is chris arnes.

And if you just tuned us in our guest for the full two hours today has been pastor mark

rimaldi with a half hour to go.

Pastor mark rimaldi who is one of the pastors at grace reform baptist church of long island located in merrick

new york who labors alongside pastor doug totter.

We have been discussing reformers in need of reformation.

And if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

And before we go back to our discussion one of our sponsors has an announcement.

They are urging you to come to the g3 conference in atlanta georgia and

celebrate of the five to celebrate the 500th anniversary of the protestant reformation.

And thanks be to god i am going to be there.

I just thank god for some dear friends and also the folks running this event

who are enabling me to be there at no expense to me or iron sharpens iron.

And i'm even getting a free exhibitors booth there to promote the program.

And so if anybody goes to this conference between january 19th through the 21st 2017

please approach the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth and say hello.

I will be right next to the exhibitors booth for the alliance of confessing evangelicals and they have asked

me to work with them on distributing literature and so on.

And this is one of the largest and most impressive rosters of

speakers i've ever seen in my life.

And i'm not just saying that because they are sponsoring my show.

Uh i am just saying that this is a fact.

Uh i don't think i've ever seen a list of speakers this long especially that is this

impressive as well.

Uh scheduled to speak on this lineup are paul washer steven j lawson d

.a carson vody balcom james r white tim challis conrad

and bayway of cubata baptist church in lusaka zambia africa who pastor

mark may remember when he preached at grace reform baptist church of long island and he is probably

the most powerful preacher i've ever heard in my life.

And i would travel anywhere you are able to go to just to hear him.

Phil johnson who is the executive director of grace to you ministries the preaching teaching and

literary ministry of john macarthur and rosaria butterfield who i

have interviewed twice on this program.

She is a former leftist lesbian and professor tenured professor at syracuse

university who was saved by the grace and mercy of christ and

totally transformed.

She is now a born -again believer and renounces all of the wickedness of her past.

She is also a heterosexual by god's grace married to a conservative

presbyterian pastor and they have children.

And quite a remarkable testimony that she will be giving john crotts who i think isn't that

your parents pastor.

Yeah absolutely yeah.

That's the pastor.

Yeah yeah.

And john has been on this program several times and he's going to be on again.

And that's just about half of the speakers.

And i have interviewed most of the speakers on this lineup but there are still a few that i'm trying

to arrange interviews with.

So if you'd like to go to this conference go to g3 conference .com g the number

three conference .com and please tell them if you go that or if you register that

you heard about it through iron sharpens iron radio because we would love for them to continue sponsoring this

program.

And thanks to pastor josh bice for helping to make

my trip there possible in addition to linbrook baptist church on long island.

But going back to our discussion on the reformers in need of reforming.

Uh we have observation number five a weak emphasis on evangelism

now this is interesting because uh obviously one of the

largest criticisms we get from non -calvinists is that they will

say we don't even believe in evangelism which is a lie.

Uh and of course you may have reformed people who are either

theologically hyper -calvinist who embrace that they would be a tiny tiny minority.

Or you have those who sinfully neglect that area of the christian life.

Uh and of course you can have lazy arminians who don't

evangelize either.

Or people who are more concerned over the feelings of men than their never dying souls.

Or even an arminian can be more concerned over making friends than seeing people

delivered from sin and damnation.

Uh but having said that are you uh acquiescing and actually agreeing with our

theological opponents that uh calvinists are.

Weak on the emphasis of evangelism.

No what i would say is that historically have been some of the

they've done much beyond

the shadow of any doubt missionaries who were sent were thoroughly calvinistic.

Many of some of the most

um those who have properly you know gone with their doctrine.

What i mean though is today.

And this could issue as well.

Uh today again i think we're just um.

It tends to be an over -emphasis on b chris i'm sure on

yes on facebook.

What.

What.

Uh it's a satire.

Um they write satire articles and so on.

And they're very very witty and um some of them just i just

uh but there's one to babble on be those who are listening.

What makes

this the truth satire.

The truth that they implicate by them are so well written.

And one of the things though they wrote at one point and again i don't know that they said

local calvinist elaborate theology of evangelism.

And when you read the little the little inside article there it's it's a

good well -developed evangelism that exists entirely in the theoretical

realm.

Then he puts a quote god is holy sovereign.

He's quoting that as if this is what the guy's saying god is holy sovereign and salvage that end we

can't just sit around on the couch and hope people get saved.

Explain brian thoughtfully as he took a seat on his sofa for his daily four -hour xbox session.

God brings his elect in in through the sacrificial efforts of people like you people totally misunderstand calvinism as

if the salvation of sinners happens in a vacuum with no god -ordained means used in bringing them to christ said the

reformed man whose source is confirmed has not witnessed to a single person in the past five years.

You know if you look at some of the things there uh it really it's funny and it's comical but

the reality is that i realize that this is in some ways it is

um and it's not the theology it brings a bad

name to the to the theology it gives people who speak against the theology

a um you know our theology and say that's what it creates but it's

not the theology it's it's us and in general you know we're we're just so

we can explain we can write books on evangelism and get into probable

things but when it comes down to the practical aspect of this and i'm not saying all the old calvinist

there are many calvinist many some of which you've interviewed people like tony maiano uh chris and people

like that.

And there are many beyond that as well.

So let me be careful that but i'm just saying in general if you look at the atmosphere in general um we're just

so caught up on these other things and writing uh you know books about every about

minutiae and debating and emphasizing these other areas that i think that uh you know getting

inside of the jinn

sinners you know uh i remember one time a dear brother came to my house many years ago um

and you know he had i was pretty excited about about um election like you and i

remember saying yeah you know uh it's just such an exciting thing that god gets all

the glory and that's what matters most and it's and it's more important even than the souls that are you know whether

they're condemned or not and of course that's true and that you know in a real sense but he looked at me and this brother said

well seasoned man he said yeah brother you know yeah you're right but he said don't ever lose

to love sinners to love souls don't let that become something that's see

the value of of these precious souls and that really spoke to me uh and i think sometimes we

were almost afraid of becoming arminian it is in any sense by just a love

for people as well you know of course a love for the glory of god it's first and foremost but also a love for people a love for

the lost you know a concern that people are dying in their sins.

And so my appeal there on that last observation is just do the work of an evangelist too you

know there's an eternity to learn more about the deep things of god make room for the spreading of the gospel

don't bring all of our doctrine into that you

know and uh since you brought up

tony miano let me just quickly.

Plug since his book only came into print within the last few days.

Uh his book cross encounters his new book is straight hot off the press right now.

Yeah and you could get a solid dash ground books .com to order that book that's called

cross encounters by tony miano and we are scheduled to have him back on this program very

soon so keep listening for updates.

We always love having tony on the program and we do have another listener in

indianapolis indiana aaron who says what practical advice would

pastor grimaldi offer to combat strong reformed folks in need of

reformation.

I belonged to a facebook group of gals who held a near

witch hunt of any dissenters i merely bowed out but wish i could have

made a difference by encouraging mercy.

Yeah yeah that's a good question.

I've seen those kinds of things as well just to say that i've witnessed that

those kinds of things.

In fact there were probably times that i've been part of it.

About things i would just say that you know sometimes in a in a setting where there's many people writing

it's hard to to try to get any kind of a point across because then you'll you'll become the next target.

Uh but if there's any way to say something i would really encourage you know um their

own.

Um you know none of

us has the perfect doctrine.

None of us has it has the perfect um sanctification.

We're all in this process together and and that we need to be loving and gracious.

I would encourage the by people like paul trip you know try to get a sense of the

the the the glory of grace.

Um just the the importance of recognizing the balance that we need to have right upon.

Yes we need to you know to focus on the issue of the law we want to be sanctified we want to hold doctrine pure.

But at the same time that we know we we don't want to forget the all -important of grace that that we are continually

surrounded by a sphere of grace.

And we all need that.

And when the moment we step out of that and put on our own self -righteous you know garbs and throw barbs at each

other you know in essence we're saying that that we're justified by our own righteousness.

And so i think people need to see that in some of these groups like hey you know take a step back and look where

you came from.

Look where you are.

Yeah and in fact it is

amazing uh that that of all of all people.

That calvinists and theologically reformed christians would ever demonstrate

pride arrogance and haughtiness and uh

thinking about themselves more highly than they ought when the very doctrines we

believe are meant to exalt god to his right

place of honor above all things infinitely higher than all things and

to just humble us to dust to recognize that we owe him

for every blessing that we have.

And it seems that that because we're sinners we can immediately bypass

that in our practical living and begin to think that we are part of an exclusive club.

We actually even if we don't believe this on paper but we

actually reject unconditional election and somehow develop a notion unconsciously that we were

elected because we're smarter than other people or something.

I mean it's just let's not forget folks it is unconditional election for a reason that there was

nothing lovely in us that caused god to love us.

And i think that the most uh contemporary expression

of the loveless graceless calvinists are the god hates fags folks.

Uh the guys at west borough baptist church they are hate to say it calvinists.

They even say uh and on their website that they adhere to the 1689 london baptist confession of faith.

And they even although it's not a part of the rhetoric you hear in the media one of their

banners is god hates arminians.

And uh that god hates all kinds of people.

God hates the united states military.

God hates uh i mean almost everything that you could think of.

And this to me is calvinism apart from regeneration.

Because i don't think i don't think these people are regenerate.

No i agree chris that they're way off the deep end and sadly they they become a an identification mark

for what you guys do and so on.

But i think i think

also nature still

and that

doesn't mean that as we grow and as we learn

that pride is very much at the door with us at all times and we lose sight of that.

And i think when you look at the apostle paul right here was the man who we get most of our theology from.

You know the calvinism comes from paul in a lot of ways you know not denying that the the rest of scripture but all you know in his

exposition really um opens that up and uh and yet when you see that of course

the visions that he received he was in the third heavens and he had such great privileges and the lord gave him you

know a pretty weighty bond you know a messenger of satan came and afflicted paul in some severe

way in some way that it was enough that it was throbbing and continual and he couldn't get away from it and

paul prayed to have her removed three times and the lord said my grace is sufficient you know and and basically that my um

you know my strength is made perfect and in weakness you know and and that it was used to humble paul because and

uh and that's our tendency with the more we learn the more we grow in understanding of

of pride and we need to be aware of that.

And then the lord in his grace will i own walk i can say there's been many times that the lord has

humbled me has put me down on my my face as it were reminding me that hey guess what.

You know you can't even keep your mind together the whole ocd thing you don't even have to think correctly apart from my grace.

So you know keep it on you know remember where you came from look look at other people with that that the kind of grace

that i'm showing you um and again not that i perfected it but that's kept me at a place where it's you know you learn

humility in some way when you know when you when you think that you're

humble you know so you know

i think it's right on the mark we we need to be on guard that as we study things deeper and should grow

to be aware that our friend our sinful friend pride is is always right there

with us and we need to be on god and watch out for them amen.

And uh the fact.

That there are brothers in christ brothers and sisters in christ who they may be in error on

some theological issues and even perhaps some serious ones uh but i think that we

need the humility to learn from their lives because they may put us to shame

in certain things that they do that we are totally neglecting like i've said this before on this program

and i do not mean to broad brush because there are exceptions.

So please if you're reformed and you have a ministry like this uh do not be upset with me.

And in fact i know of a a uh reformed church in the heart of new york city that has

a lot of uh outreach to the community.

Um who are uh you know amongst those that would be considered by many

christians the untouchables they have uh outreaches where many

homosexuals and other people come for the food that they have available and so

on.

But of course they are not like the liberals that just give out food they've evangelized these people but but it

seems that the majority of people that i have met or heard about that do that kind of a ministry

where they roll up their sleeves and get down to the the the darkest parts of the

urban areas or anywhere else geographically where prostitutes drug

addicts homosexuals and all that type that all that ilk of humanity gravitate

where they are going out there with the tracks and evangelizing that they seem to be for the most part pentecostal.

Yeah.

And there there is exception like the manor reformed church that i just mentioned in new york city.

And there are others i'm sure there are i'm sure there are many others that i don't know about.

But when it comes to the first thing that pops in your head when you hear about a ministry

like that sadly uh sadly for us who are reformed it's not typically oh they must be

calvinists you know and that was.

The point i was making with the pipe article before you know that's that's a reality.

You know there are people out there who don't have share

that the wonderful and yet you

know who

are taking that people in our camp should be

taking.

You know you know it's it's it's sad.

I mean it's not sad that they're doing that but it's sad that we're not recognizing that.

When you when you think of and like you said there are definitely calvinists and reformed churches who

are very faithful in these ways.

That have to be clear very faithful.

So it's not a broad brush right.

But in in the general atmosphere of you

just especially in america let's let's even put the bars there.

I don't want to speak about those in china and so these people are out there but.

But in general it's it's just um there's not a lot of emphasis on on that kind of

living out our theology.

In fact i want.

To give their website manorchurch .info that's a church in new york city that's theologically reformed

and yet has a lot of activity going on for those in the cities like the

prostitutes and the drug addicts and the transvestites and the homosexuals.

And they feed these people on a regular on a daily basis i believe and they also feed

them with the word of god.

So uh manorchurch .info i also want to very quickly uh since

we had a listener in indiana indianapolis indiana i wanted to just quickly plug the

conference that my dear friend pastor josh freiman of community baptist church of riverhead is speaking at.

He is going to be at the pittsburgh baptist church in pittsburgh indiana and that's

coming up very soon september 9th and 10th.

And he is going to be one of a number of speakers including dr russell fuller who is the main

plenary speaker.

He is a professor of old testament and hebrew at southern baptist theological seminary in

louisville kentucky.

But that conference as i said is at pittsburgh baptist church in pittsburgh indiana.

Their website is pittsburgh baptist .com p -i -t -t -s -b -o -r -o baptist

.com if you could pastor mark uh about a minute and a half summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of

our listeners.

Today.

Yeah i appreciate it chris.

Appreciate you having me on.

And uh again my my final encouragement would be that you know to say this that uh you know there are

some amongst reformed brethren who are out there who are evangelizing who are involved in the ways that we spoke about here.

So it's not a broad brush uh at the same time what we went over is not an exhaustive

wedding.

You bring this up and i'm sure they're all but let me just encourage you know those who are listening um to

make the main thing the main thing you know let's let's pray that there will be a greater unity amongst reformers

um even beyond that.

Even beyond reformers just in a sense of recognizing those who are also our brethren who were not reformed.

Let's be the example and let's concentrate on you know on being passionate for christ for his church for

getting the gospel out uh and for seeing united

efforts in that direction does not get rid of our theology by any stretch or studying our theology but let's

let's get some more attention and these things.

Out together amen.

And uh i'm not saying it exactly verbatim the way our friend dr james r white once

said it but uh he was addressing.

If you really loved your wife you would not draw a blank when someone

asks you what color are her eyes and what color are her hair and what's her favorite food what's her favorite

hobbies.

You wouldn't be clueless because if you love your wife you would want to know everything about them.

And that goes with theology.

If you love god you're really going to want to know as much about god as you can possibly uh

retain in your mind.

But uh grace reform baptist church uh the website is grace reformed baptist

church .com that should be easy for you to remember grace reformed baptist church .com and you can

contact them if you want any other information about pastor mark's books.

Thank you so much pastor mark for joining us and i want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus

christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner.

We look forward to hearing from you next time with your questions for our guests on iron sharpens iron radio.