August 30, 2016 Show with Marc Grimaldi on “Reformers in Need of Reforming: Time to Pull Some Weeds From Our Own Front Lawn!”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions

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Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good Afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania And the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron

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Wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 30th day of August 2016 and we are going to be joined

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God willing momentarily by my former pastor Who is

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Mark Romaldi of Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Merrick Long Island, New York.

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That's Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island is the official name and We have just been experiencing some phone problems here, but I think that I may have had them resolved within the next within the last

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Couple of minutes, so hopefully we are going to be joined by Mark Romaldi Very soon.

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And if you'd like to join us on the air with your questions, our email address is Chris Arntz and at gmail .com

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Chris Arntz and at gmail .com Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live

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Outside of the USA and today our topic with Pastor Mark Romaldi Is going to be a very

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I think important topic, especially For those who think that I have been preaching to the choir for most of my program

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And perhaps many of my like -minded Christians who are theologically reformed and Calvinistic have been loving that But I think from time to time we've got to pull some weeds out from our own front lawn

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And that's why we are discussing reformers in need of reforming That's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron my friend my former pastor

02:59

Mark Romaldi Thanks, Chris. It's always a pleasure to be on here. Thank you, brother And it is absolutely amazing

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I've been doing this program for over a year now and that is the first time I gave out the wrong number for one of my guests,

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I Don't know how I did that Maybe a premature Dementia, I'm not really sure what's happening

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But I'm glad I finally figured out my own phone number in time to get you back on the program and We've also got some very good news for those of you who heard pastor

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Mark on our last interview when we Discussed his book gossip the church killer

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That was only in manuscript form at that time. But that book is now finally in print.

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So before we go into our discussion on Reformers need reforming and even talking about your book that is now in print gossip the church killer let our listeners know who have

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Not heard you on this program before or perhaps they don't know who you are at all and that they might not even know what?

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A reformed Baptist is but tell us about grace reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York Yeah grace reform

04:15

Baptist Church as you said Chris and as the title says it's a reformed Baptist Church And now what that means is that we hold to the the principles of the the

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Reformation certainly the five souls Of the Reformation as well as our we have a commitment to the 1689

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London Baptist Confession of Faith And so we would hold to those doctrines that were dear to the heart of the reformers and to Baptists as well

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Yeah, and I can remember years ago many years ago when Before family radio went down the toilet theologically

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I had my friend and and an acquaintance of yours. Dr. James R. White. He was interviewed on Family radio and I can still remember

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My friend who I'm not going to announce his name because of his blunder here But when he was interviewing

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James, he said So you say you're a reformed Baptist. What are you now?

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And in other words, he was using the term reformed Baptist as if like a reformed alcoholic or a form

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Yeah, he used to be a Baptist and now he's but that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about those of us who are theologically in harmony with the

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Protestant reformers Wouldn't you say that we and our forefathers before us who were

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Baptist? Took the Reformation principles the five solos of the Reformation especially solo script

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Torah to its logical conclusion and continued to reform and continued to do things only the way the scriptures prescribed them and Therefore they came to the conclusion that only believers were to be baptized

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Yeah, amen. Yeah, we did follow in the footsteps of the reformers insofar as we believe them to be biblical and just like all of us

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Right throughout all ages. None of us are perfect and we would we've examined their writings in light of these scriptures

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And as you said solo script or being one of the main principles of the Reformation we hold to that as well and we would believe that the the error in In in the sight of most of or a good portion of the reformers would have to do with the issue of baptism.

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Yeah, and the Let's talk a little bit before we go into our theme about reformers in need of reforming

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The year your book is now in print gossip the church killer tell us about why you wrote that book and Explain a little bit more about it and those of you who missed pastor

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Mark's interview on iron sharpens iron on that subject can go to our archive at any point after the show and and go into the search engine into the older programs or podcasts and type in a

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Gossip and you will find this Subject that we addressed, but if you could tell our listeners more about it yeah,

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Chris, I actually wrote the bulk of the manuscript that book probably about eight or nine years ago and it had to do with just reflecting upon just even our own local church here and Challenges that we faced and just the the danger of gossip

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I've got to see why way of experience not only what the script is clearly teeth, but again by way of experience

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Just how dangerous gossip is and how it how our words How important our words are how they affect?

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The hearts and thoughts of others and how well how things can spread and just the great damage it causes

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We tend to think in the church of some of the big sins right fornication or adultery

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You know stealing or the drug addiction those kinds of things which are very very serious

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We tend to focus on those things often And I think sometimes the idea of gossip, which is done with the words

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It's just kind of gets brushed aside or ignored and and yet it's it's just so predominant

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You know and I think if we're honest we could see it Interesting not not to be but to be too comical about it

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But I was given out the book for the first time and I had the book in my hand I found myself gossiping on one occasion and I was like what am

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I doing? You know, so it's so yeah Somebody told me about that mark I got back to you already

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It is serious and it really does Tremendous damage it to the churches and I think we don't we tend to not see that aspect of some of the dangers of what destroys the church and We do have a very important announcement to make about this book anybody who purchases

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Gossip the church killer by Pastor Mark Grimaldi will also get a free one -year subscription to the

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National Enquirer. So But this is this is an excellent this is the type of book because of its brevity and I'm assuming

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Coinciding with that that it's very reasonably priced. This is the kind of book That every church should have

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Like at least a couple of dozen of them in their track racks because of that because of the prevalence of this sin

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Yeah, I've given in fact, I've given out a free copy to all of our church members Because of it is it is that important and I made it like you said,

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I intentionally Made it brief for short. It's maybe about I have in front of me

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It's under 90 pages in that area and the reason is we tend to unfortunately and I don't mean this in a critical way

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But we tend to be so busy today that we look at a book that has any kind of thickness and we shy away from It but this is something you can read, you know in a few sittings and I think it would benefit every church

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And I'm hoping that there's hoping that pastors would consider thinking about using it for their flocks And if they do want to get it

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It'd be better for them to get it for me because I can get a pretty good discount for them rather than paying the regular Yeah, and I strongly recommend that you do if you're a pastor or Deacon who may be in charge of refilling the track rack

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In your church, I would suggest that you get a case of these or something because this

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Sin is just so prevalent. I would be I don't think that I would be

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Going over the top to say that it may be the most violated sin in the

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Christian Church next to the violation of the first commandment, but the

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The sin of gossip is just so prevalent because even the best of men Often I think find themselves drifting into that on occasion yeah, and when and again when you look in the scriptures and you see the

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Just how important our words are how important and I'm not I'm not You know putting forth the idea of the word of faith person of words that we can create things and all that kind of nonsense

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But just the way our words affect people they can be used for great good We can speak and edify and be a means of grace according to what

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Paul says in Ephesians You know, we can or we can tear down, you know and do great damage And so God is ordained to use words to use our speech

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You look all throughout scripture again Ephesians the whole idea of building up the body and how do you do that? It's without words

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It's such a great emphasis on on how we speak and God uses that to to grow the body that's one of the most important ways of growth is by speaking the truth in love and so we want to take gossip and You know and and take it off and replace it with You know a positive form of speaking that which can cause growth as opposed to destruction in the church

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Okay, great well as I said before folks we have already interviewed mark on this subject

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So if you'd like to go to the archive after the show is over We advise that you don't do that right now so you can hear the live show but if you could go to the archive and look up gossip in the podcast or older program a search engine and You will find that interview and I hope that you are blessed by it and hope that your life is changed by it and more

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Importantly and also Chris just for one and you're probably gonna say this as well Anybody who contacts you with the through your

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I guess three email whoever that works if they give you their address I'll send them a free copy of the book as well.

12:35

Oh great. I appreciate that very much Well, the subject at hand is very controversial.

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I think that It would be hard to find an honest

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Person an honest Christian person who does not think that self -examination is important and even

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Self -examination when it comes to a whole not only church, but theological movement

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That that one needs to be involved in some self reflection On things that may be going on That are not pleasing to God things that we may overlook on a regular basis and you have done this in an article you wrote that took some guts because It's always like treading on thin ice it seems when you are criticizing a

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Theological movement even if you belong to it yourself Yeah, and I think that since we who are theologically reformed

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Rightfully Obey the the heeding of the

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Apostle Paul to look out for false teachers. We're not supposed to be Lackadaisical and happy -go -lucky and and Just sing kumbaya with everyone who says that they love the

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Lord we are to Examine what people teach especially if they are in leadership or if they are considered to be mentors

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Of others people who are in the media and so on whose teachings are made public We are to be very critical and examine them just as Paul commended the

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Bereans For doing that he didn't get upset even though he was an apostle He didn't get bent out of shape and get his feelings hurt.

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And well, even if he did get his feelings hurt He didn't write about that. He he commended them for their examining every word that he said by the

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Word of God and And So we are to do the same and you have done this in this article

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What was the initial motivation for you to write this article reformers in need of a reformation?

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Yeah, Chris, that's a good question. Yeah, it's sometimes build up I think over time through I guess a couple different things

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But one is obviously we things we went through in our own Association that I was a part of with with our purchase some of the things that went on there with with the split

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Also the just the different Facebook forums that are on Online that I've been a part of a lot of very good things said but just watching the types of articles that have been written

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Some of the different kinds of debates that have been going on between different individuals who are well respected in the reform faith just following a lot of that and and Just being grieved over the extent that people have gone to To to do damage to the the practical element of our theology in in in in their emphasis of these

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You know of the understanding theology in general how far how deep we can go to understand God? Just how people have gone with that and and I think we've lost sight in some ways of some of them with some of the

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Very basic and important things of the Christian life You know with you and I both and I think we would also we we love

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Reform theology and that's not just because it's attractive to us. It's probably not attractive at all to the natural man

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It's not but when you get to understand the truth of reform theology when we see when we examine the scriptures that these things are indeed true and Correct when we have a proper understanding of our own sin nature and of just the glory of God and his grace and his power

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And being we love these truths We're jealous for them We're jealous that you know for the the

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Calvinistic doctrines of our faith and and all that's associated with with the the Reformation all those wonderful teachings and principles

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They light up, you know, they light up our souls we are jealous to see God and Christ glorified and at the center of all theology and that driving the ship is a passion for Christ and Wouldn't we don't want to be man -centered.

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We want to be Christ centered So those things are really really just awesome and and I would never trade that for the world

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My problem is not what the theology and sometimes unfortunately people tend to look at the at the way that we live as Reformers and they judge the theology as being the problem

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But the reality is that even reform people who reform truths are sinners. We still struggle the problem not with theology

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I believe it's without failure to put into practice What we what we preach and teach and I think when we get down to the practical theology of reform teaching

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You know, I think that there's a danger there. We we fall short and you know, everybody has if you look at any

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Denomination that's within the realm of true Christianity Everybody has their weakness, you know We're all sinners and we have our weaknesses and I think those who love

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Doctrine and theology and who consider careful exposition of the scriptures as to be something that's to be held in high regard

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Are also prone to particular sin patterns, you know, the company those good qualities, you know We're prone to to to like the

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Church of Ephesus in Revelation chapter 1 that letter written to that church We're prone to losing our first love we're prone to losing sight of some of the practical elements of living these things out and Getting so caught up in the scholarly elements of of theology and the depths of you know

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Very that kind of thing and that's kind of what drove me in this direction well, the first thing the observation that you start off with and then

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I'm kind of glad that I didn't give out your home address and Introducing you because you may have reformed

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Baptist carrying torches circling your house For this one, but you start off with an overemphasis on preaching now that's gonna really startle some folks and Get some hair standing back on the standing up in the back of their necks

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Yeah, you know and even in writing that it's funny Chris it's it's one of those things where you you almost shake a little bit or feel a little uneasy saying that because Preaching as and I say it in there is the most important means of grace, right?

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It it's we can't You know say enough about the importance of preaching especially in a broader culture

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That really has very little respect for preaching. So from this the standpoint of broader Christianity We need to emphasize preaching more but from within the standpoint of our own

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In our own closed doors as it were our own reformed doors I think we we have to take a step back and say well, wait a second

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Your preaching is is the means of grace such a tremendous greens of means of grace the most important means of grace, but it's not the only means of grace and Preaching alone doesn't determine the the success of a ministry

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You could be a great preacher and gifted in so many ways and generally those in the reformed faith you know, we tend to look up to those those kinds of people but you can be gifted with preaching and yet really have a

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Poor ministry because of a failure to live out You know the very basics of what what

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Christ calls for and loving others and you know Just serving those kinds of things that would be in more in the practical realm, you know coming out of that preaching now

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I have heard some pastors that have been friends of mine for quite a while in the past I have had conversations with those that have such perhaps an unbalanced view of preaching that they

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Bristle at the idea of even counseling people privately I have actually had some friends of mine in the ministry

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When I've asked about that, do you do marital counseling? Do you provide counseling for this or that word of God is my counselor to my my congregation?

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Yeah, I I just preach and that's where they get the information that they need as I preach the whole

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Council of God and That's where they get the information that they need to live a godly life and to Address every problem that they may face in life.

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So therefore we really don't do a lot of Emphasis on that. How do you react to that?

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And indeed by the way, have you heard that as well? Or is that something that I've heard those kinds of things? Absolutely.

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In fact, I was listening to a sermon one time several years ago From a dear brother who

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I love who was a gifted man of God and and I wouldn't highlight his entire ministry in this way

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I think he's very blessed and a good man of God But he had said there was just this to me and an over -emphasis again on the on the issue of preaching

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And he was preaching to people who were all reformed Baptists It wasn't like it was a broader sermon to to all of evangelicalism and one of the things he said just really troubled me

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He talked about how? You know how important the sermon preparation is which it is and doctoral studies again

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We're not we're not denying how important those things are But he came to the point where and maybe it was just an element of overexcitement

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But he's like, you know when I'm in my study, you know, and you know in church moments members come calling, you know

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There's a do -not -disturb sign on my door, you know that kind of thing and I just felt like man, that's that's just You know that I don't

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I don't that doesn't reek of the love of Christ, you know again You don't we don't if you're getting constant calls and people are coming and nagging about every little thing

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Yeah, you have to be you know, you have to have a balance there Be careful that you give proper time to study but man

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Christ didn't just preach to the people he did that was great But he was among them. He loved them.

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He served them, you know, what happened to the foot washing principle? I don't mean that in a literal sense like let's start washing people's feet, you know

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Well, if we were in a culture, we're wearing sandals and walking to dirt and so on and it's fine But but yet the whole principle there of serving one another he was speaking to his apostles

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These are the preachers who started the church And what they were to do to each other and others and and he talks about you know

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A servant is not greater than his master and John 17 you go to the end of the book of John What was the emphasis that Jesus gave it wasn't just on preaching?

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In fact preaching wasn't even really there as much it was more on the love that they needed to have for another in this You know, so again, there's an abuse of that love concept outside of reform to reform, you know, the reform realm

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You know, all you need is love the typical Beatles type thing Throw out your doctrine and you know

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Who cares and just welcome everybody even with this in into the into the into the the church membership

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But I'm not talking about that again. I'm talking about within the confines of reform theology You know

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We need to open that door of love up a bit wider and get away from this idea of like let's have just a preaching

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Elder he just gets up there preaches prepare sermons He's behind the curtains and then you have all kinds of other elders and others who do all the ministry to the body

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No, that's just not the way it is in Scripture. You don't see the Apostle Paul doing that You don't see the

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Lord Jesus Christ doing that the disciples doing that they they knew the sheep, you know They they sought to get to know them.

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They were among them. They loved them. They served them. They counseled with them That's the kind of thing that that troubles me

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It's this idea of like the alien preacher and the interesting thing Chris is when you when you have that kind of a heart a shepherd's heart

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You know when you Minister not only in the preaching aspect of the ministry and you get to know them it opens up the people's ears wider to hear

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The preaching because they know this man loves them. They know him in some sense again that you're not best friends

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You can't take everybody in the church, you know to the movies or out to dinner every day that way I'm not talking about that, but I'm saying that they know this person

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They know he cares when you're distant it tends to shut the ears of people, you know People are saying oh what this guy's saying all these things.

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He doesn't even know why he doesn't even care So so I'm just saying it's not that idea of the over emphasis on preaching

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I don't believe that there should be a you know This idea of a of a preaching elder who only preaches when

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I look at the example of Christ and his Apostles You know, I think all the shepherds are big in some way to get to know the flock

24:28

Amen and I get when you were when you were speaking about that a

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Part of your objection to the over over emphasis of preaching I just flashed in my head an image of Nicodemus Creeping through the night holding a lantern and then reaching a door and holding up The light to the door and there'll be a sign on the door saying do not disturb

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One of the examples I given in the real quick in the pic in the Theatrical that I wrote I said, you know,

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I could picture and and another brother had had pointed this out years ago, too I could picture the you know, the the parable of the the

25:06

Good Samaritan You know when you have the man who was robbed by thieves, right? The people that passed this man over right with a

25:12

Levite in the priest they would have been representative of the preacher in the sense of that time right in in the in the Old Covenant and And I could just picture that that priest or that's that Levite, you know coming through, you know

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The works of John Owen as they just walked by and ignored that guy didn't go and band You know bandage up his wounds and put them on the donkey and you know

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But of course the Samaritan was the one who did it and I just think that that aspect of the ministry is

25:38

It's important as well, you know without diminishing the preaching and obviously you do not believe that pastors should make themselves susceptible to burnout by Having some kind of an open -door policy where at any time congregants could

25:57

Contact them to address their problems because obviously not only would that Burn out a pastor very quickly, but it would also rob him of Rob his family of time

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That he is commanded by the scriptures to have with his wife and his children and so on Yeah, there has to be wisdom that absolutely

26:16

Chris and that's part of the balance there is you can't just right you can go to The other extreme and it becomes you know more of you know, more of a philanthropist type thing

26:24

And you know, you're doing all kinds of good for all people, which is wonderful But now you're neglecting you are neglecting the study of the word even you know the ethical exposition of the word and that the the importance of preaching and doing

26:35

Preparing properly and and also your family like you said, yeah, I mean that and that often happens

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You know and with ministers the gospel in general, that's a big struggle You know to properly love and care for your family and they tend to see your family tend to see you know

26:49

The quick ways in which you're ready to run out the door for others But when they have needs, you know They kind of shut out and and I think that's enough that's a whole nother radio program right there

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Yeah, well, we're gonna go to observation to it when we come back from the break that is connecting all the dots

27:08

Will the theological dots and that's obviously something else that people are going to be listening to that title of a subheading and say

27:19

Don't tell me he has problems with that now. I'm really getting mad here Because we are we are obviously to seek for theological purity, but I guess this

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Also can affect even in an area of sin The way we view others and become overly

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Judgmental and and even Deny fellowship to those for whom

27:47

Christ died that are truly born -again Brethren but who disagree with us in certain levels but we'll talk about that more when we get back from the break and As I said earlier if you'd like to join us, our email address is

28:02

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen Hi, I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a

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that's wrbc .us Welcome back.

30:59

This is Chris arms And if you just tuned us in our guest for the full two hours today is pastor Mark Grimaldi He is one of two pastors at grace reform

31:07

Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York He labors alongside

31:12

Doug Totter another one of my former pastors there at grace, which was my last congregation before moving here to Carlisle, Pennsylvania and Tell all those dear brothers brothers and sisters that I miss them very much over there.

31:28

Next time you You see some of them mark. Yes, sir, and We have been discussing and will continue to discuss reformers in need of reformation and We will also accept questions about Pastor Mark's new book that is in print on gossip the church killer and Any general question on reform theology or theology in general?

31:57

It will be acceptable as well And our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

32:03

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com before I move on to that second observation of connecting all the dots

32:11

I guess This question from Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York can kind of dovetail with that Tyler asks, why is it that so many non

32:23

Calvinistic brothers in the Lord? Continue to reject the doctrines of grace.

32:29

I think that's obviously you could spend a year doing that every day that's same subject because But there's obviously different reasons that are specific to individuals but the doctrines of grace themselves don't they reveal that that we owe all of our enlightenment and all of our blessings to God even the discovery and our

32:55

Embrace of the doctrines of grace, isn't that even something that the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to?

33:02

Yeah, and I think Chris with that and again, I like you said this there are more than one There's probably more than you know several reasons to or several answers to this question that people can give and and certainly

33:12

God You know opens the eyes of some different ways and it doesn't mean that you know that they're not saved You know if there are many and so on But what

33:18

I would say to me one of the one of the big issues with it is Is I think that they that generally the issue of fairness in the mind of these individuals comes to mind that I know for me

33:30

When I first came to reform faith and came to embrace the doctrines of grace, you know in their fullness, especially dealing with election

33:38

You know, the big challenge was well, how can you know? How can God only you know, you go you simplify how can God only choose some and why is it that you know?

33:45

If somebody can't Come of their own free will to Christ doesn't it mean that that that's not fair and why give the gospel to them?

33:53

You know, is there really is the gospel even really freely given to these people or is it really just a hoax in a sense?

33:59

So when you when you start getting into some of that kind of logic, you can sympathize with what they're saying

34:04

But again, I think that when you study these things out from Scripture when you pray about these things and God opens up our understanding more about our own hearts and the nature of sin and And moves it out of just these simple kind of statements and into more of a broader understanding of what's what's going on here

34:20

What's at stake? You start to not only appreciate these doctrines but to actually love them because we know you know

34:26

You and I Christian who understand a little bit of the depths of our own sin in our own hearts We know that we would absolutely not even for a moment

34:34

Come to Christ and desire to go in his direction He didn't will us fully with his Holy Spirit, you know and generate us and so on So I don't think it's and I think most a lot of those people would say, you know

34:45

A lot of our minions would say that yeah, you know God, you know God gets all the glory In other words, they would see it as a straw man of saying that but we of course know from when you follow through with the logic

34:55

Of what they believe it really is in some way gives man some glory I mean, it's inevitable. They would not say that but I'm saying that you can't help but avoid that I think it comes down to that fairness issue

35:06

You know, it's a hard pill to swallow at first until you really wrestle through it and God gives you the grace

35:12

I remember praying as I went through this struggle years ago. I Lord, please if this is true, you know

35:17

And I was I was really struggling Lord if this is true make it my to make it comfort me You're true. There's supposed to be comforting, you know, this is not comforting me

35:24

Please, you know make it a pillow to my soul and and and in time he opened that up and and I was able to see

35:31

That it was true, but the goodness of that. Oh, yeah when I first came to Believe in the doctrines of grace, of course, you remember our dear brother who's now in glory

35:41

Nigel Stone. Yeah, I remember when our

35:47

Former pastor Mike Gaydosh was when I was a very new Christian and started to attend the

35:53

Bible study He was conducting He was bringing up these things about predestination and I was like getting panicky.

36:01

I was like what what do you believe and I really said to the elders when they were interviewing me for baptism.

36:09

I love you guys I really want this to be my church. I really feel like I am at home here

36:14

I really feel like I could trust you as shepherds and leaders I love the people but I don't know if I'm ever gonna become a

36:21

Calvinist This just is out Out of an outer space somewhere

36:26

I just I can't even imagine ever believing this Nigel Stone gave me a booklet George Whitfield's letter to John Wesley an election and George Whitfield had all the biblical answers to John Wesley's questions, which included my questions and even more that John Wesley had and And those biblical refutations just opened up my eyes the

36:52

Lord just used those Scripture verses to open my eyes to the truth, but initially

36:57

I hated it. I said this is true, but this is horrible Yeah, but then within probably within a month

37:03

I fell in love with those teaching But but wouldn't you say that before we move on to the observation you made as far as Tyler's question?

37:13

Wouldn't you say that there's another reason? Another Earthly reason why people reject these things is very often they are hearing about them from people who are misrepresenting them

37:25

They're not even yeah, they're not even reading those that champion these these teachings like the great reformers and people like the 19th century

37:34

Prince of Preachers Charles Spurgeon and many of the other biblically sound Orthodox heroes of the faith.

37:41

They're not reading the doctrines of grace from them They are reading about it from their enemies. Yeah, I think yeah, it's very clear that every time when

37:49

I've read You know that I can recall The arguments from from some of the Armenians who hold to the obviously positions against Calvinism You know, you read what they say and you're like this is not even close to what we really believe

38:02

This is they're presenting a hyper Calvinistic position and and even just you know to me

38:08

Even when you're trying to explain the doctrines of election to someone you can't just take the scriptures

38:14

And throw them like arrows and just you know Try to prove the point right up on that also explain the you know Right the the glory behind all that what's called the real condition of man

38:23

And you know, it's not if you just pull out the text and say look God chose that's it You know, it just doesn't it doesn't settle right and understandably so, you know but when you explain the reality of our condition the reality of our hardness and our heart and our lostness the fact that we would all become like Sodom and Gomorrah if it wasn't for The grace of God and you really chew on that and just show the love of God and his grace and all those things

38:44

It goes a long way So they present it in that way and again partly because sometimes you get the what they call right?

38:50

What is the stagecage Calvinists? You know throwing it like arrow, you know, they're like Poseidon in the water, you know throwing the

38:58

Harpoon or whatever the you know what people and it's just there's no, you know, you got to be gracious in general

39:05

Yeah, I Just for those of our listeners. We have no idea what that that little phrase was about cage stage

39:11

Calvinism is a joking way of labeling people that are new converts to Calvinism and Are so overly zealous with such little knowledge that they need to be put in a cage because they will just rip people's heads off verbally and you know just Get involved in self -righteous condemnation of others and and I but I can even remember seeing that happen in race reform

39:38

Baptist years ago with some certain members and so on where any mention of Making a decision for Christ or choosing

39:49

God anything like that, even though it's biblical language They would they would be furious and I was like, yeah, but he was quoting a scripture text.

39:59

What are you talking about? Not yet it's people again like and I think part of that comes from the influence of people like Harold camping where they distort the

40:08

Means that God uses to to bring about salvation They eliminate that because they overemphasize the doctrine right of election and they still be so when you say well

40:16

How do you give the gospel? Well, you know, but what can I do to be saved? Well, there's nothing you can do read your Bible pray, you know when the

40:22

Bible very clearly says repent, you know, believe, you know We ought to give the call and and so you do have people want the moment you at you

40:29

Command someone to do something in any sense. It becomes a works gospel to them And so they put a bad taste to to you know to the truth of election.

40:38

Yeah, I can remember Years ago I met a pastor who became

40:47

Presbyterian he was a Baptist. He was an Arminian Baptist who became Presbyterian and he was showing me his church building and above the

40:57

Baptismal tank that was in the church There was a

41:06

Scripture verse that Said Whosoever will

41:14

Let him come and He told me that he wanted to remove that from the wall and I said why and he said

41:25

Because it sounds Arminian to me Yeah, I know that's

41:31

Yes, we don't want to give the wrong impression and you and with the wrong impression you mean about what the

41:37

Word of God says I mean obviously people People Misinterpret that all's it means is anybody that wants to may come it doesn't mean that anybody is able to come

41:49

But anyway the the observation that you had was about Making sure that all the connecting all the dots the theological dots is a

42:08

Can be it can become a problem. Yeah. Yeah, I think Chris when you when you look throughout history

42:16

To some some of the greatest theologians, you know that we have would have great respect for You can see that because they they try to philosophize everything in Scripture even about things having to do with the character of God And I mean, you know the essence of God you wind up in some trouble with that You know, you had like Francis Tourette and for example was one of the most brilliant theologians

42:36

Right of the amongst the Puritans and and here's a guy who probably forgot more than I that I know, you know and and yet he didn't believe that that That she's that Mary had had any other children after Jesus because the womb was sanctified, you know

42:52

He just came up with this whole philosophy, but you know, and so again and I hadn't He's if you read anything this guy writes, it's just Stella.

43:00

Yeah, Francis Turreton was a great influence of Calvin wasn't God tremendous Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I and in every sense he would be to anyone, you know, who would read him

43:08

It's very well written, you know what and I think today I think this We tend to now again, let me let me let me preface what

43:15

I say with this doctrine is extremely important again I'm not talking about it within broader Evangelicalism amongst the whole of us

43:21

We need to emphasize more in a sense of the importance of doctrine because there's many people today who can give a hoot about doctrine

43:27

You know and they just throw it out the window and don't see that you can't live without doctrine In fact how you live is what you believe affects how you live.

43:35

So it's important Paul's letters to Timothy You know, I mean you read them It's full of just the whole idea of Timothy, you know, embrace sound doctrine teach them the truth and so on However, my my issue is and again we this has to do with the balance

43:49

I just think we need to widen the teeth on our theological combs a little bit. I think sometimes we narrow Certain doctrines so far down to try to dissect everything

44:00

Especially when you're dealing with issues that have to do with the essence and nature of God And then we divide over these things and one of the things that that was said

44:08

Even during some of the challenges we had faced last year in our associational split It was like look, you know the reformers and reform

44:16

Baptist We're a great minority already amongst the influence within the

44:23

Christian realm We're gonna now split over some of these, you know These these issues that have to do with the essence of God that are you know that that um, none of us

44:33

You know of comprehend even a fracture of these things We're talking about God's being his eternal being in essence

44:39

And and sometimes people feel they have to dissect everything of it and and connect every dot and let me just give you one example

44:46

And this is enough that this doesn't have to do with the split from last year but just one example, you know If you look at the the hypostatic union the to the union of the two natures of Christ We know right that Jesus is fully

44:57

God and fully man when he became man, right? He didn't get rid of his divinity and throw it out the window and and and lose that and at the same time

45:04

He didn't he wasn't so the emphasis is not so much on him Just being fully God that he loses his humanity and it becomes feel more of like a phantom spirit that overcomes the flesh

45:15

Whatever he was fully God and fully man Now we don't understand that but we can look at both dots

45:21

We can look at both truths and we can make great claims about them and benefit from them and live off those truths when we look at Scripture, but when you try to connect those two dots and Logicize everything about how that happens.

45:34

You can wind up into some serious heresy And that's what happened with you know, what the deceit is and the airiness and so on throughout the ages

45:41

So in other words much learning can make you mad We don't want to not study theology and I'm not even saying don't study deep theology, you know

45:51

Don't get into any of these things at all But I think we need to like pull it back a little bit take a breather

45:57

Respect one another even when we have some differences about these things, you know And then love one another and also don't lose sight of the big picture that people are going to hell right now as we speak

46:07

You know, you know, let's in other words There's a place to say let me come out of that study a little bit and concentrate on other things

46:14

But you find people on the internet on you know on Facebook and also like I said with what happened last year and and admit they're writing papers and they're writing books and they're doing interviews and it's going back and forth and and Years go by and people are debating about these kinds of things about the essence of God and I'm saying wait a second

46:32

You know, what? What are we doing here? You know, how much time do you got? You know on hand to serve the

46:37

Lord, you know We have all eternity to learn more and more about some of these things about God and therefore, you know

46:43

You know closer to the fullness of who he is, you know, yeah study them, but let's pull back a little bit here

46:49

Let's you know spend some more time in some of these other more important basic areas of Christianity like loving your brother

46:55

You know like reaching out for the lost like evangelizing and so on Amen, we do have a listener from all the way in Kinross Scotland.

47:06

Oh Murray he says candidates for the ministry are Generally assessed on their ability to preach when they finish their studies

47:17

They are then called again based on their preaching Do you think it is unfair to assume that every minister or pastor?

47:25

will automatically also have the gifts of an elder and Could it be time to reassess the way we view the ministry and he has a follow -up question, too

47:35

But I'll let you address that first So, I guess is there such a thing as somebody who might be a pastor whose

47:43

Sole role is to preach and not necessarily govern or shepherd I think that's what he's saying, but I don't know.

47:48

Maybe you can get a different Yeah, I might when I look at and again I realize this this this differences of opinion on this especially between Presbyterians and Baptists and so on with how church government works and so and so I want to be careful with that But what

48:01

I would say is this, you know, what am I understanding of the scripture elders? You know shepherds presbyters all those are used interchangeably.

48:10

They're all the same thing now There are it does speak about those who rule, you know Who are those who teach, you know worthy of double honor and so on so there, you know

48:19

Those are all more gifted in it. Let's say in the air of teaching So we're not we're not saying that every leader in the church has to be

48:26

Equal in their giftedness of teaching or leadership and part of what makes an eldership a blessing

48:31

You hope is that there's a there's a sense of complementary, you know complementing one each other and supplementing one each other one person may lack a little bit in this area and the other one fills that Gap and teaching may be one of those areas where somebody may not be as you know up to the same level

48:46

Let's say it's somebody else so that that's understandable, but I do believe still that every every elder

48:53

Needs to be someone who is who is who is who is shepherds the people who is involved in some way in the lives of the

48:59

People I don't think I don't think my opinion is not just someone a teaching elder All he does is preach and teach and does not know the people.

49:07

I don't think that's scriptural I think that it let that person be in a seminary if they want to do that Let them teach in the seminary but not in the pastor

49:14

Not being in the you know in an eldership of the church. I don't see that as what the scriptures would teach So I'm not sure if that's exactly what he's what he's asking there

49:22

But I do think that I do think that every elder should have the ability to teach in some sense I think in Timothy it says that they're able to teach you know

49:29

Maybe that maybe they're not as clear and you know of an orator from the pulpit so to speak But they can counsel wisely you know they have the wisdom of the scriptures in them

49:38

So there should be some ability to teach in some sense there Yeah, man a man might have an ability a great ability to teach, but he may be a horrible preacher

49:48

He may he may he may preach with a very cold academic Approach that is not really preaching and you know he might be he might be more lecturing than But when he's sitting down to actually teach somebody he's very good.

50:01

He might even be a Seminary professor who is a horrible preacher Yeah, yeah, you might. Yeah, you'll have elders.

50:08

Let's say especially if you have a big elder board There may be some who don't do a lot of preaching But they're still involved with with maybe with the counseling ministry or with some form of instruction in other words

50:17

The the element of being able to break down scripture should be there in them in some sense I think they have to have some ability to teach

50:25

You know again, but the other extreme is to say that you know that there are some who all they do is teach

50:31

I don't see that when I look at you know the scriptures at all all right Murray's follow -up question is with regard to the

50:38

Imbalance regarding preaching isn't it interesting to note? That that of the church at Jerusalem We learn in Acts 2 that they continued steadfastly in the

50:49

Apostles doctrine prayer fellowship and the breaking of bread So I guess what he's saying that that preaching isn't in that list

50:59

Yeah, well what he's talking about there in Acts. I believe it's just yeah the way that they They continued on in their fellowship one or another right in other words

51:07

I guess he is he referring to the over emphasis on preaching yes That's what he said with regard to the imbalance regarding preaching.

51:14

That's ways. Yeah, yeah Good. Yeah, good. That's a great point. Yeah, and again like we said before we're not Diminishing the importance of preaching but to make it the only thing and to to completely eclipse

51:24

The other aspects of ministry is where the problem is and I think yeah, I think he's got a good point there

51:30

Well, I forgot to mention Tyler if you give me your mailing address You are getting a free copy of the gospel of God.

51:38

I'm sorry gossip the church killer and also Murray in Kinross, Scotland I usually don't mail things overseas to our listeners who are in Canada or overseas

51:53

And I know I did break that rule once before with Murray But I'm going to since this is especially a lightweight book, you know, it's not gonna cost that much postage

52:03

I will break the rule here and I will send Murray also a

52:08

Copy of the book gossip the church killer by Mark Romaldi. So if you both could give me your mailing addresses, that would be great

52:18

We have David in Ada, Ohio. I Have a passion for studying the word.

52:27

I use a Bible study program word search others are logos and Accordance just to name three of many.

52:36

I also know the pastor who does not want to use such programs He feels using handheld books are better for him

52:44

But he is also pressed for time a lot. How do you feel about the time saved and quality of study from such programs?

52:55

Again I think to each his own, you know, I wouldn't Condemn someone either way some people who are more from a maybe a traditional older, you know generation

53:05

You know Just love the book to smell the book hold in the book and being able to turn the pages and some people with with the

53:11

Electronical devices, you know and using those programs like accordance, you know They they you can just put the word and get to hit the

53:19

Greek at a post in an instant other people like own from you know from one book to the other book and So just it really comes down to I think just the how people are comfortable and what they like to do

53:29

Some people don't want to jump into the learning these programs. It looks scary for some of the older generation

53:35

You know how to use logos how do you get around? But I do think those electronic programs are really good, you know, very helpful and I would commend them for using them

53:43

I know there's people who preach You know from from tablets and things like that and there's other people who

53:48

I've done that but I'm more I'm more preaching from Printed out pages now I use my notes, you know

53:54

So it's just I think that's more of an issue of comfort and you know People can kind of recommend it to each other, but I wouldn't take a strong stance either way on that But but more power to he's using some good programs there.

54:06

That's great Yeah, God indeed has a sense of humor because I can remember making fun of my parents for their inability to operate a

54:18

VCR and things like that and now I am instructed on My computer

54:28

My using the computer and other my cell phone even by you know Children aren't teaching me how to use my cell phone yeah, and my computer and so on and and you know, because I Just like my father.

54:43

He he could not catch up with the The state -of -the -art technology back then

54:48

I am also at a loss there So God does have a sense of humor. He's like chastising me for me mocking my own father

54:58

But Thank you. Oh and David give me your full mailing address and you are also getting compliments of pastor

55:06

Mark Romaldi a copy of his book gossip the church killer and We do have another listener

55:16

Seth in Randleman, North Carolina how would you respond to a fellow pastor who says a

55:25

Balanced Calvinist. Oh who says he's a balanced Calvinist Stating he believes salvation is both of God and man

55:33

Basically, he says he's a synergist with the above stipulations confusing

55:41

I know Well, obviously that would be not be any kind of a

55:46

Calvinist if he said men participated in his salvation but there is a difference between that and saying that God receives all the glory, but man is also totally accountable.

55:57

Those are those are different things, aren't they? Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I was just thinking of Chris as you were saying and I was saying well, that's that's an omnipotent

56:04

That's not really a balanced Calvinist. What do you describe? But but what I would say? Yeah, I mean as a Again, the danger is to confuse

56:11

Calvinism with hyper Calvinism we when we think of Calvinism I Think and this also comes to connecting the field the whole issue of connecting the theological dots too far

56:19

And I think that's what happens with some people who are in the hyper Calvinistic camp who go so far as to become like fatalistic

56:25

You know and you know, why do anything because God is just gonna do everything you want to know and so on You know, the scriptures clearly teach both things.

56:32

They very clearly teach that God is all sovereign. He's in control He ordains all things whatsoever come to pass right?

56:39

Nothing happens outside of his will And yet at the same time man is accountable when we send we send of our own desire our own will our own

56:47

Things that we enjoy Both things are completely true and We we have to be careful not to let one overshadow the other what

56:56

I mean by that is we don't want to look at God's sovereignty and say okay Well, since God is completely sovereign and does whatever he wants and it doesn't matter what

57:03

I do I'm like a robot then who cares, you know, why even do anything? Let me just kind of you know, just go along with whatever he does through me.

57:11

That's that's a danger The other extreme is to see it, you know things so much so that that up in the place where where we think we have to You know, we're so responsible for everything that's so accountable that we we take, you know we take unnecessary risks or we we jump the gun or we do things in the arm of the flesh and don't rest in the

57:31

Sovereignty of God and we're not you know We're not having a sense of peace and comfort and knowing that he is in control of all things and we worry or become anxious

57:39

You know, we take things into our own hands. So both of those are extreme So there is a balanced position the sense of understanding that God is both sovereign and I am fully accountable

57:48

You know, both of those things go together, but I wouldn't say that man has any part in his salvation You know, we believe in monogysm, right?

57:55

It's of course is those who are of the reformed faith You know It is salvation is completely of God and even the good that we do

58:02

The good works that we do right or all are all ordained by God beforehand that we should do them. It says in Ephesians One thing that I like to say to you know to maybe clear it up a little bit to I say look anything good that We do anything that advances the kingdom in any sense is of God.

58:17

It's it's his glory. It's through the spirit It's nothing that we can take credit for anything bad that we do is of us.

58:23

It belongs to us. We've done We're we're responsible for yeah And as others have said before us the only thing that we contribute to our salvation is our sin which we lie at the feet of Jesus and beg him to forgive us for it and cleanse us from it and And I would ask this

58:43

Seth I would ask this pastor who says that both God and men

58:50

Are responsible for his salvation or for the salvation in general as I would say to him

58:56

So what percentage of the glory does God get for our salvation? I would just ask him that question

59:02

Yeah, well, he gets all of it. Well, what do you mean by that? You just said that it's both God and men, you know,

59:08

I mean these people are very rarely Consistent when they reject the doctrines of grace.

59:14

Yeah They were not we're not saying that right. We're not saying that we're not responsible to respond to the gospel

59:23

We're not saying that when we preach the gospel that people are not responsible to respond They're responsible to respond and they guilty if they reject the gospel

59:32

But what we are saying that is that if they do respond Right if they do that, that's nothing less than than a miraculous work of God right and changing the heart leading them to respond

59:42

Right, even our faith is a gift Yeah, exactly and even our longing to come to to Christ even our repentance, so it's all a gift if we are truly of the elect and if we are truly a

59:57

Regenerate this is all comes from from God and it's amazing how men even

01:00:04

In many respects very godly men who reject the doctrines of grace. It's amazing how angry people get

01:00:10

When you try to take away every ounce of credit from man and give all glory to God They just some people just hate it.

01:00:19

They just they just can't stand that and that's that's that is a mystery Why have why who's somebody who's born again would react that way that's what

01:00:26

I mean is a mystery It's not a mystery when men who are Unregenerate do that But we have to go to a break right now and we're gonna be back with Pastor Mark Romaldi after these messages

01:00:36

I wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am

01:00:42

I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

01:00:51

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01:00:59

Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

01:01:04

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If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship

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01:04:07

This is Chris Sarnes and if you just tuned us in our guests for the full two hours today with one hour to go is

01:04:13

Pastor Mark Romaldi one of the pastors at Grace Reform Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York we are discussing reformers in need of reformation and If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is

01:04:28

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. We are also opening up the discussion to any general theological

01:04:37

Question you may have and the issue of gossip Which is the theme of Pastor Mark Romaldi's new book hot off the press gossip the church killer

01:04:48

We are to already address this theme with Pastor Mark in the recent past so we didn't address it again, but you can at some point go to the archive of iron sharpens iron radio .com

01:05:01

and You could hear that interview on the podcast archive or past or older Broadcasts, I believe it says at the top of the website page

01:05:12

You could join us today with a question of your own My Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:05:17

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com, please. Please give us your first name city and state and country of residence and Murray again from Kinross Scotland offered this wonderful quote when it comes to The those who

01:05:35

Major on the minors regarding doctrine. He says I don't know if you think this is relevant but with regard to those who major on doctrine to the point of judgmentalism and The love we should show in return

01:05:49

William McDonald quotes this in his Bible commentary They drew a circle that shut me out heretic rebel a thing to flout

01:06:01

But love and I had the wit to win. We drew a circle that took them in Praise God, well, thank you.

01:06:12

I think that would sound much better brother Chris if you did that with a Scottish accent, though Yeah, but Murray Murray would very quickly recognize that it was

01:06:21

Flawed so I don't want to embarrass myself. Well, let me let me try They drew a circle that shut me out heretic rebel a thing to flout

01:06:32

But love and I had the wit to win. We drew a circle that took them in And And right now you could actually hear from all the way in Ken Ross Scotland somebody laughing named

01:06:46

Murray because he thinks that was a horrible impression of his his fellow neighbors there in Ken Ross, but Yeah, it is

01:06:58

This every jot and every tittle and having all the

01:07:05

I's dotted and T's crossed it It becomes especially sad when those who have so much in common

01:07:15

Have become bitter enemies at times and I Know, you know,

01:07:24

I know division that has occurred even amongst close formerly close brethren over the day on which the

01:07:33

Lord's Supper is celebrated, I mean It can be Absolutely reach a point of lunacy when when this occurs

01:07:45

How could you really believe in the importance of being an imitator of the

01:07:50

Bereans that the Apostle Paul commended if you immediately if you like very Immediately want everybody to fall into complete line with you and lockstep with you

01:08:00

Yeah, it's you know, if you if you take any two individuals in Any context within the church, you know, they let's say they identify with You know with with all the doctrines and the confession and everything else

01:08:13

You know you if you ask enough questions, you're going to find some kind of a difference somewhere

01:08:19

And that's why I say when you're dealing with Especially when you're dealing with issues that we don't even comprehend

01:08:27

And and we and you're trying to logicize those things about like God's essence

01:08:32

You know that there was a recent debate and again I'm not saying there's no healthy place to even wrestle through things to a degree

01:08:38

But I'm talking about how far we go and and where we create division How far we go with giving up our time to these kinds of things?

01:08:46

There's been a recent debate even over the issue of whether or not The Son of God was eternally submissive to the

01:08:52

Father for example And there's been a going back and forth and writings and and again I'm not saying there's no place for that But it's just the time that goes into an energy into these kinds of things and I'm saying

01:09:01

How long do we have to live here on this earth? You know that we're going to create now and it gets heated sometimes and it becomes an issue of division and and then they start

01:09:10

Bringing up the slippery slope idea that oh, well if you believe that it could lead to here Which is a poor means of you know of use of try to claim that it's a fallacy

01:09:20

It's just you know, we got to pull back and say hey, let's let's open up the comb, you know a little bit

01:09:25

Let's leave some room here for you know to to have fellowship so that we can reach the world even you know for the gospel and of course every non -calvinist

01:09:37

Hurls that remark at us about well, do you know what that will lead to? I mean and when you think about it in pure terms of human logic

01:09:46

If you believe that God receives a hundred percent of the glory for our salvation

01:09:52

According to the human logic and not taking into consideration the full counsel of God I could very easily understand why somebody say well, you're not even gonna evangelize anybody that yeah

01:10:03

Yeah, I mean if you look at any doctrine, right, that's true Even virtually every doctrine can be a slippery slope into some kind of heresy if you're not if you don't you know

01:10:12

Reign it in based upon what the scriptures teach and we believe that God is three in one Well, if you're not careful, you could become a tritheist and so and worship three gods or you could become one who believes in Modalism, you know

01:10:24

So those are all a slippery slope can happen in any sense and and I'm not saying don't ever use that You know as an argument, but but by and large we you know

01:10:32

We need to be careful with with with using that as a means of discrediting someone. Yeah, I think that Even our reform

01:10:40

Baptist brethren have a tendency to wait too long to baptize people

01:10:47

Because they want to make sure they really understand All of the teachings that that specific church wants the person to confess before they are baptized

01:10:59

And yet when we see in the scriptures when people were baptized they were instantaneously baptized

01:11:04

Yeah on the profession of their faith, you know I mean, we're gonna reach a point where we're like well now that brother bill has reached 75 years old

01:11:13

He's really proven himself to be a Christian. So therefore we are going to immerse him

01:11:19

Oh, wait, he can't be immersed because he's gonna catch pneumonia. Never mind. We can't do it He finally embraced

01:11:27

Understands the you know, the confession of faith and all of its facets, you know, I mean, it's like, you know

01:11:32

I how far you gonna squeeze someone through the ringer, you know, I mean, I think there's a place to say look, you know

01:11:38

Do they believe the gospel do they believe in the in the reality of the deity of Christ or the essentials do they believe and Understand those things.

01:11:46

Yes. Okay. Well, let's go with that You know that you can't force someone into the mold and have them You don't want them to make a profession and in about doctrines that they don't even under can't even understand yet They're still babes, right?

01:11:58

In fact that we are now we unconsciously drifted into the third observation too quick to condemn

01:12:04

We've already been bringing up some of that, but if you have anything to add Yeah, I would just say in a summary sense

01:12:11

I would just say that you know, and this again comes back to what we see, you know written out there

01:12:17

It's a lot easier for people to write and I think James White talked to white point this out And he was right on the money with this and our day and age, you know, you can respond to something immediately

01:12:26

You know whereas in the past you just didn't have this kind of ability to communicate through the Internet and all that and it's just things go back and forth and back and forth and and it's just people just want to pick apart anything and Everything about anyone, you know,

01:12:41

I'm not, you know, so this guy's got issues here and oh wait He said this, you know, and it's we become like a soundbite

01:12:48

Culture not only in in in the culture in general, but even within the within the faith, you know where we start to look at every little thing someone says and and now we got to address that and they're wrong about that and And again,

01:13:00

I think there's a healthy place to correct someone to correct each other, you know, that's okay to discuss things and say hey

01:13:05

Well, what does this mean here? But let's again loosen the reins a little bit here, especially when we're dealing with brethren, you know in the

01:13:11

Lord Let's not you don't have to have all the ducks lined up in a row before we can have you know Just work together and and you know provide ministry, you know together and get joint hands in some sense

01:13:22

Where is the line of unity? You know, you have like people who want to unite you right who don't care like the ecumenical right movement

01:13:29

They want to you know, we're right with Roman Catholics and you know, we know that's dangerous because the Gospels compromise But where we draw the line and where you don't unite, you know

01:13:37

Well, how much truth how much of every single iota of which you know What we believe to be true that everybody have to embrace before we can say hey, we can associate with you.

01:13:45

You know, it's right Yeah, well because we're sin Sinful people we're never going to get these completely balanced

01:13:54

Correctly because if we did we'd be perfect and that would mean we're already in heaven. We've already died.

01:14:00

We're in glory But it is not easy like for instance and I think

01:14:07

I could speak publicly about this without any fear of of you know doing wrong here, but somebody that we

01:14:16

All or shouldn't say all that many of us if not most of us who are reformed admire is

01:14:22

John Piper and I believe that John Piper has aired in the being too loose area where you know, he is

01:14:31

Had Rick Warren speak at his conference and he has brought his conference to Rick Warren's church and Rick Warren yeah is in a dangerous level of of I think heretical understanding.

01:14:46

I mean if not actual heresy the Condoning of it.

01:14:52

I mean he actually calls Pope Francis his

01:14:57

Pope. Yeah, I mean that that makes no sense at all Yeah, no,

01:15:03

I agree with you 100 % it would there was a in fact I put an article up on Facebook There was it contained two parts to it and it was there were two questions that were asked to John Piper when he was in in Italy and the second question had to do with his association with with Rick Warren and so on and and When I put that up some a dear brother put some comments on and from some about Rick Warren just exposing

01:15:29

The extent of of Rick Warren's, you know laps into some real dangerous teachings and so on So there's no question that the line is drawn to the

01:15:37

Gospels compromise But the first part of that article that that I was really trying to get out in that In that putting it up on Facebook What that I found interesting and again, this was just recently was was was

01:15:48

Piper was talking about the role of Pentecostalism in the world today and and this this is very relevant for all of what we're getting into here with with the issues of Reformers need of Reformation.

01:15:58

He says here just just let me read this little this little section real quick He says here first of all, he gives his definition of Pentecostalism He says people who are believing in the power of the

01:16:07

Holy Spirit believing that the Holy Spirit does miracles today Believing that the gifts of the Holy Spirit described in 1st

01:16:13

Corinthians 12 are still active today So and then he goes on to caution about you know, the whole idea of the prosperity gospel

01:16:18

So he's separating when he talks about Pentecostal and he set the Pentecostal is me separating away from those

01:16:24

Who would believe in the prosperity thing, you know the word of faith and all that But this is what struck me the most about this article

01:16:30

He says here that that kind of people are the cutting edge of the growth of Christianity around the world in in the title of the argument of the article

01:16:39

He's basically she's showing that that by and large the people who are reaching out with the gospel most are

01:16:46

Pentecostals, you know and and you know He obviously Piper has has a bit a little bit of Pentecostalism in in his own, you know repertoire his own

01:16:54

Package there himself, but uh, but I just found that interesting because I'm saying that what I'm saying with all along I'm saying we as reformers, you know

01:17:02

We what we have the greatest doctrine in the entire world that exalts the glory of God in Jesus Christ Well, why aren't we the ones who are reaching the most, you know, why aren't we out there, you know?

01:17:15

and I think part of the problem is we're so caught up on on just the

01:17:21

Minutiae of Debating every little thing and focusing on all kinds of things that really in the long run don't really matter

01:17:29

We need a little more get the gospel out, you know, you know, there's the extreme again Well, who cares about doctrine just preach the gospel away.

01:17:36

That's wrong. But we need to say hey, we care about the gospel, you know Let's go back a little bit from from getting back and forth on all these little minutiae of doctrine, you know

01:17:46

So I found that article very interesting when I read that I was I was it's exactly what I've been saying God is using more

01:17:52

Arminians and Pentecostals to reach the world than reformers because reformers are too busy debating about whether or not

01:17:58

God has emotions and I mean, come on, you know, and This is like I said, it's an issue that we're never gonna strike the right balance some some of us

01:18:10

God will use to Come closer to a right balance, but unfortunately, I guess well since we all have

01:18:18

Sinful proclivities towards the left or the right. It's one of those things that That unfortunately, well, and I'm not trying to be fatalistic here.

01:18:28

I'm asking we shouldn't I mean we should strive to To correct these things.

01:18:34

That's why we're doing a program like this. Yeah, but I'm just saying that Obviously It's going to be difficult to be perfect in our striking the right balance and I think like you said, yeah we

01:18:47

Nobody in right in any sense is going to be perfect and even as we try to To go back to come come the other way we can easily fall off the other side of the slope, right?

01:18:55

That's our tendency But I think like you said, I mean it's the clarion call is here You know, the the alarm clock is going off if nothing else to wake us up and say look guys

01:19:04

Let's reevaluate what we're doing with our time Let's reevaluate how many hours we're going to spend in Forums on Facebook going back and forth about every little detail of doctrine even baptism and all these things, you know

01:19:18

Yes, we could do these things to some extent But how much time are we given in over to these things?

01:19:23

Are we dividing over these things? Are we you know, are we losing that unity with other good brethren over, you know?

01:19:30

My new should details about the essence of God and things like that, you know that things that are beyond our understanding

01:19:36

I think that's what it is more of just like a wake -up call to say hey Let's let's pull back something here.

01:19:43

Let's let's work in the right direction a little more, you know, and we have a

01:19:49

Yes, just a word of encouragement here from an old friend of both of ours Kurt bracket

01:19:55

Oh Kurt, a Newman Georgia says just an agreement with brother Murray from Scotland and pastor mark first Timothy 3 2 is stating qualifications about an overseer and deacon above reproach the husband of one wife temperate self -controlled respectable hospitable able to teach

01:20:15

I would say teaching could be in the pulpit and also classroom or Bible studies

01:20:22

God's Word does not say how good compared to others I'm not really sure what that last part means

01:20:30

Maybe you do but he says love the broadcast and my brothers in the Lord's voices All the way brothers

01:20:36

Curt and Ginny from Newman, Georgia Now I guess what he is he saying about talent of preaching here, do you think yeah

01:20:46

I think he's saying that kind of reiterating what we were saying before that the the idea is that the ability to teach needs to Be there, but it doesn't necessarily mean that somebody can be you know has to be the you know

01:20:57

Preaching from behind the pulpit they could be able to teach in a more private setting or a Bible study In other words, they can teach the

01:21:03

Word of God, but it doesn't mean that their oration skills are going to be have to be Identical to all preachers, you know and preachers and so on which we were saying before so I agree with that and Certainly love brother

01:21:13

Curt and Ginny Yes, and give us your Your new address down there in Newman, Georgia, and we'll make sure you get a copy of Pastor Mark's book

01:21:25

We have Now this is something I don't know if you already know Pastor Mac Tomlinson of Providence Baptist Church in Denton, Texas, but if you don't you should get to know him

01:21:36

He's a Reformed Baptist pastor And he is right on the same page with you and criticizing

01:21:43

Reformed folks for being unwilling to learn from non Reformers, in fact, he wrote a very large

01:21:52

Biography Pastor Mac Tomlinson a very large biography recently of Leonard Ravenhill and Leonard Ravenhill is one of his heroes of the faith and Leonard Ravenhill was not a

01:22:02

Calvinist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah You know a W Tozer, right? Right people like that or just tremendous or even some you you have people we read

01:22:11

Who were we would what we would say a four -point Calvinist, right? They may have a universal view of the Atonement.

01:22:16

I see Ryle Yeah, absolutely and some of the some some among the Reformers appearance even you have some use of language in there at least that makes you think that way

01:22:26

Not all I mean not by and large but but a couple you have in there and I can Richard I would say yeah Yeah, Richard Baxter.

01:22:32

I mean in fact bringing up Richard Baxter, you know I know he has some there are other doctrinal issues with Richard Baxter, but I see that amongst

01:22:40

Some reformers today. They they write off Richard Baxter altogether because he does have some doctrinal issues there

01:22:47

But boy, he wrote some things there in the reform pastor that I think we need to look at as pastors

01:22:52

And I know that people say oh well He was a single man and that's true and it was a different type of a lifestyle and you maybe can't do all that But boy, there are some real good principles there about that that would align, you know

01:23:02

Line up right with what we're saying here And I almost see some people just write him off altogether as like he has no

01:23:08

Nothing really to say a benefit because he has some other issues of doctrine that that are in question And I think we tend to do that, you know, we throw them out the baby out with the bathwater

01:23:17

Well, I I haven't heard a lot of criticism for Baxter over his Arminian leanings

01:23:23

Which not Arminian ism not Arminian ism other issues that that I don't remember the ball

01:23:30

But I know there were some some more serious issues that are that are there yeah, one of the things that would always puzzled me actually about how reform people

01:23:39

Seem to be so willing to forgive Baxter for his non reform views because he's dead and lived a long time ago

01:23:48

Whereas today for some reason when somebody's alive People are much more

01:23:54

Unforgiving it seems and unwilling to publicly identify with any of their writings like, you know,

01:24:01

I mean Like for instance, why is it that? You know we can have

01:24:08

Calvin is such an enormous hero that we uphold and Yet, there are some things he believed that are believed by Brethren in Christ today

01:24:18

And I'm not even talking about infant baptism because most reformed Baptists do not Divide over that other than church membership but there are other things that Calvin believed that if If a fellow brother in Christ were to hold on to them today, they'd be vilified

01:24:34

Do you see something in there that? death seems to cover a multitude of sins

01:24:42

Sometimes, you know, there are people though who will go back and Just you know who feel the need and I'm again

01:24:49

I'm not I don't want to throw it out the window and say there's never a place for that I don't want to be careful But but just feel the need to like write about the default of these men

01:24:56

You know, the reality is anyone and everyone who is who is written who is you know, who is red?

01:25:03

It's gonna have faults and and part of the reason for that is that God is reminding us that yeah

01:25:08

These men are still men, you know that that he did they're not to get the glory, you know If they did everything right we would worship these men and we still have trouble, you know with worshiping them

01:25:16

So I think you know when you look at all these either these people were passed on or even some of the prominent people like You know the

01:25:22

Sproul's and the Piper's and the washes and the golfers and people like that today, you know, these men

01:25:27

You know, they're not perfect. They everybody has their issues You know We tend to have to like nitpick and I don't know if I don't want to say it's a pride issue because I'm sure people

01:25:37

Are sincere as well and they're doing that but it's like again the time what what how much time do we have to do this?

01:25:44

Let's focus on you know, the main thing here Let's let's let's concentrate on unifying and getting the gospel out and not creating it

01:25:53

Additional division when we know that none of us meet the standard 100 % Again is there a place to debate over different issues?

01:26:00

Definitely I don't want to say there's no place to mention or to to talk point out different faults and things like that fine

01:26:05

But just the extent of how far we go with that. I think we need to put in check We but you know something that just occurred to me what our discussion so far has proved irrefutably

01:26:18

It is that you have overcome OCD And By the way, mr.

01:26:31

Mark has written a book on that so I'm not bringing out something from his closet or something that but it but I said that as a joke, but it's also true because Reform theology would seem to be an enormous magnet to people with OCD Yeah, yeah.

01:26:51

No, he's certainly in any we know CD can take in any direction, you know of just getting too far

01:26:56

And I still struggle in general, but uh, yeah, but I guess it's just been like I said it's just more of an understanding of you know of As you grow, you know more of an understanding of our own hearts of the gospel of Christ and even learning to benefit

01:27:11

From others as that brother said that the last brother there who wrote the book You know that you learned, you know, it did there's something about and I've seen this in myself too often to not rebuke it

01:27:22

You know when you when you go to a commentary or you see a book and you see that who it's written by and When you realize that that person is

01:27:29

Arminian, you know Immediately, there's like something inside of you as a you know, when you're reformed that almost doesn't trust the guy, you know

01:27:36

And I think there's a problem with that, you know I meet these guys have a lot to offer in in various areas, you know

01:27:42

No, maybe we're not going to go to them, you know concerning the issues of election But man, I've seen some of the as I say in the article some of the most godly people that I've ever seen

01:27:52

Or learned from in my life or you read about what people who never who died as Arminian, you know, and yes

01:27:58

But it's not the Calvinist now You know, we need to we need to be able to open up that a little bit more and say hey, you know

01:28:07

You know, let let me wear the type of glasses that leads me to search for wisdom in all of God's people

01:28:13

Again, we're not talking about word of faith proponents or people who are who compromise the gospel will have real severe

01:28:20

Doctrinal issues. They don't believe in the Trinity those kinds of things So I'm not talking about that but people within the realm of evangelicalism who who do believe the gospel

01:28:27

But yet have different kinds of beliefs whether it's Arminianism or even some charismatic influence in there, whatever it might be

01:28:33

These guys, you know They have things to offer us and we would do good and well to humble ourselves in the reformed faith to sit

01:28:41

In some ways at the feet of these people to learn some things from them If not doctrinally, at least in some of the practical theology that they have

01:28:49

I've seen some of the Arminians who honor the Lord's Day in ways that Make reform people, you know look like, you know clowns, you know, it's it's a shame just an image

01:29:01

Ran through my head when you were talking about all these Arminians who since they I've passed them to glory

01:29:07

They're all Calvinist now Just pictured this image of John Calvin standing up there in glory and and this this former

01:29:15

Arminian running towards him and saying Brother Calvin, I've got to apologize to you because wait in line pal.

01:29:23

And then you see this line of hundreds of thousands of millions of people but Well, you know

01:29:32

Chris to the typical, you know the joke you've heard a million times over I'm sure where you have that, you know The the

01:29:38

Calvinist guy or the person dies so -and -so dies and they go to heaven and st. Peter's at the gate And he's walking him through the the different large rooms and of glory and as he as they as they're talking and communicating he tells the guy

01:29:51

Hey, be quiet and the guy goes why he goes. Yeah in that room is all the Calvinist. They think they're the only ones here

01:30:01

And We have to go our final break right now and if you'd like to join us on the air

01:30:06

We've got a half hour to go So if you have a question that you'd like to ask that would suggest that you do so pretty soon or very soon

01:30:13

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris ar n z n gmail .com

01:30:21

and Please at least give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence and obviously

01:30:26

Give us your full address your full mailing address because pastor mark is giving everybody a copy of his book

01:30:33

Gossip the church killer who writes in with a question. So we look forward to hearing from you After these messages, so don't go away.

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01:34:25

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen If you just tuned us in our guest for the full two hours today has been

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Pastor Mark Romaldi with a half hour to go pastor Mark Romaldi who is one of the pastors at grace reform

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Baptist Church of Long Island Located in Merrick, New York who labors alongside pastor

01:34:44

Doug Totter we have been discussing reformers in need of Reformation and If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is

01:34:53

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and Before we go back to our discussion one of our sponsors

01:35:01

Has an announcement They are urging you to come to the g3 conference in Atlanta, Georgia and celebrate of the five to celebrate the 500th anniversary of the

01:35:14

Protestant Reformation and thanks be to God. I am going to be there

01:35:19

I just thank God for some dear friends and also The folks running this event who are enabling me to be there at no expense

01:35:30

To me or iron sharpens iron and I'm even getting a free exhibitors booth there to promote the program

01:35:37

And so if anybody goes to this conference between January 19th through the 21st 2017 please approach the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth and say hello

01:35:50

I will be right next to the exhibitors booth for the Alliance of confessing evangelicals and they have asked me to Work with them on distributing literature and so on and this is one of the largest and most impressive

01:36:06

Rosters of speakers I've ever seen in my life, and I'm not just saying that because they are sponsoring my show

01:36:13

I am just saying that this is a fact. I don't think I've ever seen a list of speakers this long

01:36:18

Especially that is this impressive as well Scheduled to speak on this lineup are

01:36:26

Paul Washer Steven J. Lawson da Carson Vodie Balcom James are white

01:36:32

Tim Challis Conrad and Bayway of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka Zambia Africa who pastor mark may remember when he preached at grace reform

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Baptist Church of Long Island and he is probably the most powerful preacher I've ever heard in my life

01:36:49

And I would travel anywhere you are able to go to just to hear him Phil Johnson who is the executive director of grace to you ministries the preaching teaching and literary ministry of John MacArthur and Rosaria Butterfield who

01:37:07

I have interviewed twice on this program. She is a former leftist lesbian and Professor a tenured professor at Syracuse University Who was saved by the grace and mercy of Christ and totally transformed?

01:37:22

She is now a born -again believer and renounces all of the wickedness of her past she is also a heterosexual by God's grace married to a

01:37:33

Conservative Presbyterian pastor and they have children and quite a remarkable testimony that she will be giving

01:37:40

John Kratz who I think isn't that your parents? Yeah pastor. Yep. Absolutely.

01:37:46

Yeah Yeah, and John has been on this program several times and he's gonna be on again And that's just about half of the speakers and I have interviewed

01:37:56

Most of the speakers on this lineup, but there are still a few that I'm trying to Arrange interviews with so if you'd like to go to this conference go to g3 conference calm

01:38:07

G the number three conference calm and please tell them if you go that or if you register that you heard about it through iron sharpens iron radio because we would love for them to continue sponsoring this program and Thanks to pastor

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Josh Bice for Helping to make my trip.

01:38:29

They are possible in addition to Lindbrook Baptist Church on Long Island But Going back to our discussion on the reformers in need of reforming we have observation number five a weak emphasis on evangelism now, this is interesting because Obviously one of the largest criticisms we get from non

01:38:56

Calvinists is That they will say we don't even believe in evangelism, which is a lie

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And of course you may have reformed people Who are either?

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Theologically hyper Calvinist to embrace that they would be a tiny tiny minority or you have those who?

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Sinfully neglect that area of the Christian life And of course

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You can have lazy Armenians Don't evangelize either or people who are more concerned

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Over the feelings of men and they're never dying souls or even an

01:39:34

Arminian can be more concerned Over making friends than seeing people delivered from sin and damnation but having said that are you acquiescing and actually agreeing with our

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Theological opponents that Calvinists are weak on the emphasis of evangelism. No, what

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I would say is that historically Calvinists have been some of the most evangelistic people in the entire world

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I mean they've been on much if you look historically at the Puritans the reformers following in generations following that Beyond the shadow of any doubt missionaries who were sent were thoroughly

01:40:12

Calvinistic many of some of the most, you know World known missionaries William Carey, you know, I'm Judson and so on and so historically

01:40:19

Those who have properly, you know gone with their doctrine have done very well in that what

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I mean though is today And that this could also be is also partly in an American issue as well

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As you said, they're all lazy Armenians and so on but I think today again I think we're just it tends to be

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An over emphasis on other aspects of the ministry to the point where I think that we just don't we don't have the time to Do it or we you know, we we just we neglect to do it

01:40:48

There's an art. You've heard of the Babylon be Chris. I'm sure on yes on Facebook. What what a It's a satire

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Off they write satire articles and so on and they're very very witty and Some of them just I just read the titles of those and I'm laughing hysterically

01:41:04

I've met many of them But there's one that they wrote and what makes this in case you're not familiar with the

01:41:09

Babylon be those who are listening What makes this? These these writers so brilliant and and comical one senses that The truths that are implicated by these by what they write even though they're writing satire

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The truths that they implicate by them are really profound and just so well -written and one of the things though They wrote at one point and again

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I don't know the theological background of the writers of the Babylon be but what they said local Calvinist elaborate theology of evangelism entirely theoretical

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And when you read the little the little inside article there It's it says a local Calvinist Brian Harrison holds to an intricate well -developed theology of evangelism that exists entirely in the theoretical realm

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Then he puts a quote God is holy sovereign He's quoting that as if this is what the guy saying

01:41:57

God is holy sovereign in salvation But he uses the means of the gospel proclamation to accomplish that end

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We can't just sit around on the couch and hope people get saved Explain Brian thoughtfully as he took a seat on his sofa for his daily for our

01:42:09

Xbox session God brings his elect in in through the sacrificial efforts of people like you and me

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People totally misunderstand Calvinism as if the Salvation of Sinners happens in a vacuum with no

01:42:23

God -ordained means used in bringing them to Christ said the reformed man Whose source is confirmed has not witnessed to a single person in the past five years

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It really it's funny and it's comical but the reality that I realize that this is in some ways

01:42:40

It is some more topic here. We're talking about being busy with video games and things like that But I think that the truth is that it's again

01:42:47

It's not the theology it brings a bad name to the to the theology it gives people who speak against the theology a

01:42:54

You know a ground to stand on in their own mind to to to try to tear down our theology and say that's what it creates

01:43:02

But it's not the theology. It's it's us and in general, you know, we're we're just So we can explain we can write books on evangelism and get into proper

01:43:13

Exegesis of text and say so many wonderful things But when it comes down to the practical aspect of this and I'm not saying all the old

01:43:21

Calvinist There are many Calvinists who are out there pounding the pavement Let me just say that many some of which you've interviewed people like Tony Maiano Chris and people like that and there are many beyond that as well

01:43:30

So let me be careful with that, but I'm just saying in general if you look at the atmosphere in general We're just so caught up on these other things and writing

01:43:39

You know books about every about minutiae and debating and emphasizing these other areas that I think that you know getting into the depths of theology that we're losing sight of that just the simplicity of reaching people for Christ Just loving sinners, you know,

01:43:57

I remember one time a dear brother came to my house many years ago And he it's you know, he had

01:44:03

I was pretty excited about about Election like you said Chris we're talking about that stagecase perhaps in some sense and and I remember saying yeah, you know

01:44:12

It's just such an exciting thing that God gets all the glory and that's what matters most And it's and it's more important even than the souls that are you know, whether they're condemned or not

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And of course, that's true and that you know in a real sense But he looked at me and this brother said of a well -seasoned man.

01:44:27

He said yeah, brother, you know, yeah, you're right But he said don't ever lose, you know, don't ever lose sight of the need to love sinners to love

01:44:35

Souls, don't let that become something that's completely eclipsed to the point that you don't see the value of these precious souls and that really spoke to me and I think sometimes we were almost afraid of becoming

01:44:47

Arminian if we if we're Motivated in any sense by just a love for people as well, you know

01:44:53

It's a love for the glory of God. It's first and foremost, but also a love for people a love for the lost

01:44:58

You know a concern that people are dying in their sins I know my appeal there on that last observation is just to say hey, you know, let's do the work of an evangelist, too

01:45:08

You know, there's an eternity to learn more about the deep things of God make room for the spreading of the gospel Don't don't outgrow that And bring all of our doctrine into that, you know get the gospel out there.

01:45:19

Let's preach. Let's evangelize. Let's do that work amen and Since you brought up Tony Miano, let me just quickly plug since his book only came into print within the last few days

01:45:31

His book cross encounters his new book is straight hot off the press right now

01:45:37

Yeah, and you could go to solid -ground -books .com To order that book that's called cross encounters by Tony Miano and We are scheduled to have him back on this program very soon.

01:45:50

So keep listening for updates we always love having Tony on the program and We do have another listener in Indianapolis, Indiana Aaron Who says what practical advice would pastor

01:46:04

Grimaldi offer to combat strong reformed folks in? Need of reformation.

01:46:10

I belonged to a Facebook group of gals Who held a near witch hunt of any dissenters?

01:46:18

I merely bowed out but wish I could have made a difference by encouraging mercy

01:46:26

Yeah, yeah, that's a good question I've seen those kinds of things as well just to say that to this woman

01:46:31

Aaron I've witnessed that those kinds of things In fact, there were probably times that I've been part of that in my pet

01:46:37

You know in my past experience as well when you get passionate about things I would just say that you know sometimes it up in a in a setting where there's many people writing it's hard to to try to get any kind of a point

01:46:47

Across because then you'll you'll become the next target But if there's any way to say something, I would really encourage people to rethink

01:46:54

You know their own, you know their own salvation that the reality of their own hearts their own sin their own

01:47:01

Shortcomings just the fact that we all fall short, you know all of us In none of us has the perfect doctrine.

01:47:08

None of us has it has the perfect Sanctification we're all in this process together and and that we need to be loving and gracious I would encourage the people to listen to to read books by people like Paul trip

01:47:20

You know try to get a sense of the the the the glory of grace Just the importance of recognizing the balance that we need to have right upon Yes, we need to you know to focus on the issue of the law.

01:47:34

We want to be sanctified We want to hold doctrine pure But at the same time that we know we we don't want to forget

01:47:39

The all -important of grace that that we are continually surrounded by a sphere of grace

01:47:44

And we all need that and with the moment we step out of that and put on our own self righteous You know garbs and throw barbs at each other, you know

01:47:53

In essence, we're saying that that we're justified by our own righteousness, you know, we're we're forgetting where we stand

01:47:58

Yeah So I think people need to see that in some of these groups like hey, you know Take a step back and look where you came from and look where you are, you know by God's grace

01:48:07

And let's speak with a more of a gracious tone And in our dressing one another. Yeah, and in fact, it is amazing that that of all of all people that Calvinists and theologically reformed

01:48:21

Christians would ever demonstrate pride arrogance and haughtiness and Thinking about themselves more highly than they ought when the very doctrines we believe

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Are meant to exalt God? to his right place of honor above all things infinitely higher than all things and to just humble us to dust

01:48:50

To recognize that we owe him for every blessing that we have and it seems that that because we're sinners we can immediately bypass that in our practical living and Begin to think that we are a part of an exclusive Club We actually even if we don't believe this on paper

01:49:13

But we actually reject Unconditional election and somehow develop a notion unconsciously that we were elected because we're smarter

01:49:21

Yeah, and other people or something. I mean, it's just let's not forget folks. It is

01:49:27

Unconditional election for a reason that there was nothing Lovely in us that caused

01:49:33

God to love us and I think that the most Contemporary expression of the

01:49:43

Loveless graceless Calvinists are the God hates fags folks the guys at Westboro Baptist Church They are hate to say it

01:49:52

Calvinists They even say and on their website that they adhere to the 1689

01:49:58

London Baptist Confession of Faith and they even although it's not a part of the rhetoric you hear in the media one of their banners is

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God hates Arminians and That God hates all kinds of people. God hates the

01:50:13

United States military God hates I mean almost everything that you could think of and this to me is

01:50:20

Calvinism apart from Regeneration because I don't think that I don't think these people are regenerate

01:50:26

No, I agree Chris that they're way off the deep end and sadly they they become a an identification mark for for a

01:50:33

Calvinist Or even for Christians by some look at what you guys do and so on But I think I think that the problem is

01:50:39

Christian and and this is something that you know We all have to look at this as a tendency for all of us and I can speak for myself

01:50:45

You know the greater we prize doctrine the greater we prize these wonderful truths, which we should

01:50:51

We also have us in nature still and the tendency is To to become proud, you know the more we study and that doesn't mean don't study but it does mean to be aware that as we grow and as we learn that pride is very much at the door with us at all times and We lose sight of that and and I think when you look at the

01:51:09

Apostle Paul Right here was the man who we get most about theology from you know The Calvinism comes from Paul in a lot of ways, you know, not denying that the the rest of Scripture but all you know in his exposition really opens that up for us and Ephesians and Romans and so on and And yet when you see that, of course the visions that he received he was in the third heavens and he had such great privileges

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And the Lord gave him, you know a pretty weighty bond You know a messenger of Satan came in and afflicted

01:51:35

Paul in some severe way in some way that it was enough that it was throbbing and continual and he couldn't get away from it and Paul prayed to have it removed three times and the

01:51:46

Lord said my grace is sufficient You know and and basically that my you know my strength is made perfect and in weakness and on and that it was used to humble

01:51:54

Paul because of his experiences and and and that's our tendency with the more we learn the more we grow in understanding of the truths of God the more prone we are to pride and We need to be aware of that and the

01:52:06

Lord in his grace will afflict us I know my own walk I can say there's been many times that the Lord has humbled me has put me down on my my

01:52:15

Reminded me that a guess what, you know, you can't even keep your mind together the whole OCD thing You don't even have to think correctly apart from my grace

01:52:23

So, you know keep it on, you know Remember where you came from look look at other people with that that the kind of grace that I'm showing you

01:52:30

And again, not that I perfected it, but that's kept me at a place where it's you know You learn humility in some ways and so The point when you know when you when you when you're no longer humble is when you think that you're humble, you know

01:52:41

So, yes, I think Chris rate what you're saying what that woman is saying, you know,

01:52:46

I think it's right on the mark We need to be on guard that as we study things deeper and should grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ To be aware that our friend our sinful friend pride is is always right there with us

01:52:59

And we need to be on God and watch out for that. Amen and The fact that there are brothers in Christ brothers and sisters in Christ Who they may be in error on some theological issues and even perhaps some serious ones

01:53:15

But I think that we need the humility to learn from their lives

01:53:20

Because they may put us to shame in certain things that they do that We are totally neglecting like I've said this before on this program

01:53:29

And I do not mean to broad brush because there are exceptions. So please if you're reformed and you have a ministry like this

01:53:37

Do not be upset with me or not. In fact, I know of a a Reformed church in the heart of New York City that has a lot of Outreach to the community

01:53:51

Who are you know amongst those that would be considered by many Christians the untouchables they have outreaches where many homosexuals and other people come for The food that they have available and so on but of course they are not like the liberals that just give out food

01:54:10

They've evangelized these people But but it seems that the majority of people that I have met or heard about that do that kind of a ministry where they roll up their sleeves and get down to the

01:54:23

The the darkest parts of the urban areas or anywhere else geographically where Prostitutes drug addicts homosexuals and all that type that all that ilk of humanity gravitate

01:54:38

Where they are going out there with the tracks and evangelizing that they seem to be for the most part Pentecostal.

01:54:44

Yeah, and There there is exception like the manner reformed church that I just mentioned in New York City and there are others

01:54:51

I'm sure there are sure there are many others that I don't know about but when it comes to The first thing that pops in your head

01:54:58

When you hear about a ministry like that sadly sadly for us who are reformed it's not typically oh there they must be

01:55:05

Calvinists Yeah, and that was the point I was making with the Piper article before you know, that's that's a reality

01:55:11

You know, there are people out there who don't have Share that the wonderful, you know

01:55:18

Treasure of doctrine that we have in the extent of our understanding of the doctrines of grace and election

01:55:23

You know who who even believe in certain things regarding the miraculous gifts that we would not hold to and And yet, you know who are taking risks

01:55:34

That people in our camp should be taking, you know, well, you know, it's it's it's every

01:55:40

I mean It's not sad that they're doing that but it's sad that we're not Recognizing that when you when you think of what we have and what we hold to And like you said there are definitely

01:55:48

Calvinists and reformed churches who are very faithful in these ways that have to be clear Very faithful. So it's not a broad brush, right?

01:55:55

But in in the general atmosphere of You know those amongst the reformed faith you you just especially in America, let's let's even put the bars there

01:56:05

I don't want to speak about those in China. So those people are out there, but but in general, it's it's just um

01:56:11

It's not a lot of emphasis on on that kind of living on the practical aspect of living out our theology

01:56:17

And in fact, I want to give their website the manner church info That's a church in New York City that's theologically reformed and yet has a lot of activity going on for those in the cities like the prostitutes and the drug addicts and the

01:56:32

Transvestites and the homosexuals and they feed these people on a regular on a daily basis

01:56:37

I believe and they also feed them with the Word of God. So Manor church info.

01:56:45

I also want to very quickly Since we had a listener in India Indianapolis, Indiana I wanted to just quickly plug the conference that my dear friend pastor

01:56:55

Josh Fryman of Community Baptist Church of Riverhead is speaking at he is going to be at the Pittsburgh Baptist Church in Pittsburgh, Indiana and that's coming up very soon

01:57:05

September 9th and 10th and He is going to be one of a number of speakers including.

01:57:10

Dr. Russell Fuller who is the main plenary speaker? He is a professor of Old Testament in Hebrew at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky But that conference as I said is at Pittsburgh Baptist Church in Pittsburgh, Indiana Their website is

01:57:27

Pittsburgh Baptist comm PIT TS Boro Baptist comm if you could pastor mark at about a minute and a half

01:57:36

Summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today. Yeah, I appreciate it Chris.

01:57:41

Appreciate you having me on and Again my final encouragement would be that you know to say this that you know, there are some amongst reformed brethren who are out there who are

01:57:53

Evangelizing who are involved in the ways that we spoke about here So it's not a broad brush at the same time what we went over is not an exhaustive list of challenges

01:58:00

I'm sure there's other people saying hey, why don't you bring this up? And I'm sure they're all but let me just encourage, you know, those who are listening

01:58:08

To make the main thing the main thing, you know Let's pray that there will be a greater unity amongst reformers even beyond that even beyond reformers just in a sense of Recognizing those who are also our brethren who were not reformed

01:58:21

Let's be the example and let's concentrate on you know I'm being passionate for Christ for his church for getting the gospel out and for seeing sinners saved

01:58:30

You know, let's let's get more of a of a united effort in that direction Does not get rid of our theology by any stretch or studying our theology

01:58:39

But let's let's get some more attention in the realm of practical theology. Let's live these things out together amen, and I'm not saying it exactly verbatim the way our friend.

01:58:51

Dr. James R white once said it but He was addressing if you really loved your wife

01:58:56

You would not draw a blank when someone asks you what color are her eyes and what color are her hair?

01:59:04

And what's her favorite food? What's her favorite hobbies? You wouldn't be clueless because if you love your wife

01:59:10

You would want to know everything about them and that goes with theology if you love God You're really gonna want to know as much about God as you can possibly

01:59:20

Retain in your mind but grace reform Baptist Church The website is grace reformed

01:59:27

Baptist Church comm that should be easy for you to remember grace reformed Baptistchurch .com

01:59:32

and you can contact them if you want any other information about Pastor Mark's books Thank you so much

01:59:38

Pastor Mark for joining us And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater