Evangelicals Treating Homosexuality like a Special Sin - Dr. Jared Moore

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Hello. The conversation you are about to watch is really good. I got a lot of benefit out of it, and I hope you do as well.

00:08

It's with Pastor Jared Moore, and Jared is the pastor who, in the last few weeks, has been causing a big stir in our circles, and it's about homosexuality and homosexual desires.

00:24

He's the one that's been saying that guys like Doug Wilson are soft on it, and I thought it would be really interesting to talk to him, because I love

00:32

Doug Wilson, but I'm also not opposed to Doug Wilson being wrong. In fact, if you look at the scoreboard of controversies between something

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Doug has said and something I've said, it's like 2 -0, I'm up. I can't even say that with a straight face.

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But in any case, but yeah, seriously, though, I'm not opposed to him being wrong. I've called him wrong before, so this is no surprise in terms of that.

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But the whole conversation is good, but there's one moment in this where I totally get it, right?

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Like a light bulb goes off for me, and I actually already agreed with what

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Jared was saying even prior to this conversation, but this is where the light bulb went off.

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Jared, at one point, he's gonna say he just wants homosexuality and homosexual desires to be treated like any other sin, and I thought that was so interesting, because when we hear that, we often hear someone saying that from the pro -homosexual perspective, where they say, well, you're just hating on homosexuals, where, why don't you hate on gluttons?

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Why don't you bring up gluttony and stuff like that? They want to flatten the seriousness of all the sins.

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You hear that from the pro -homosexual perspective, but you don't often hear that from this perspective.

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But that was such a major insight. In fact, around that time in the conversation, Jared corrects something that I say, and what

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I said was something about how I experienced these feelings. Someone would say, I just experienced these feelings, and he said, well, let's just talk about that for a moment, because even capitulating to that, saying

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I just experienced them, it almost takes the blame away from you, and he just wants you to treat it like any other sin.

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This hit home so much for me because of the sin of envy, which was one of the worst things that I was when

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I was an unbeliever. I saw this post here from Brian Sauve that just really hit home for me, because this spoke to me.

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Here's what Brian Sauve's post says. He says, envy will poison you. Here's how to fight it.

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Cultivate a joy at others' success. Is a brother crushing it? Don't be a bitter loser.

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Thank God for his success. Whatever you do, don't let envy put down roots.

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Dig it out fast before it's a rottenness in your bones. You know, when

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I was an unbeliever, I was probably the most envious person that I knew, and it was so bad.

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It was to the point where, I mean, obviously, you know, you could kind of probably understand.

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I was in a sales job at the time, and you could probably understand. If I was going through a rough patch, and I wasn't making sales, and somebody else was, it's still a sin, but you could probably understand me feeling envious over them, but for me, it was way deeper.

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It didn't matter how well I was doing. I remember I was crushing it. I really was.

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I was living in New York City, and if you know anything about New York City real estate, number one, that's already an accomplishment in itself, but I was living in Midtown.

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My apartment had a view of the Empire State Building and a wood -burning fireplace, and I could afford it, and that was an astronomical amount of rent

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I paid for this place. That's not to flex or anything, because I quickly lost that money during the

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Great Recession, but I was doing well, is my point, and even though I was doing well, anytime somebody else also did well,

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I hated them. I could feel it, this just anger in my bones, and I could feel just this disgust.

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I wanted to be the only one that got accolades. I wanted to be the only one that did well, and even though I was doing great, any other person at my job that was comparable or maybe doing a little bit more in a certain month or certain week, even if I was doing better than them in general,

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I was so envious, and it was destroying me from the inside, and I hated that about myself.

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I hated it, but to me, it felt like it was just there. It was just a feeling.

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I just was experiencing it, and it was just part of me. I couldn't see,

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I couldn't remember a time when I wasn't that, you know what I mean? Even though that's what it felt like, it felt like it was a core aspect of my being, what

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I was doing was sinning. I was sinning. I was giving myself to sin, and I wasn't even fighting it.

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I was sinning in the feeling, the experience of the feeling. I would never use that term about it.

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I was sinning. When I came to Christ, I knew I had to get rid of this envy, and I prayed, and I prayed, and I prayed, and I tried to pray the envy away, and I took classes.

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Totally out of character for me. I think that stuff is nonsense most of the time, but I took classes on it, and I prayed, and what

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I started to do, and I just said, you know what? I'm just going to try, you know what

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I mean? I'm gonna try to be okay with other people's success, and I tried. In the beginning, it kind of felt like I was faking it, like faking it till I make it, but at the same time,

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I was praying, and all this stuff, and over time, I started actually celebrating, right?

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It didn't feel as fake anymore, and I think God was answering my prayers, and blessing the efforts that I put forward.

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It wasn't an overnight fix. It's not like I got saved, and my envy was gone like that. It didn't work that way for me, but over time, and now

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I'm at a place where I haven't arrived yet necessarily, but I've got a handle on it. There's just no question about it, and it's way better, you know what

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I mean? It's way better on this side, where I don't have to, I don't feel angry when other people succeed, you know what

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I mean? Of course, there's still moments. Everyone has their moments, but I repent of those, and I'm working on just completely destroying it, and when

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Jared said, you know, I just want this to be treated like any other sin, that's what I thought of, you know what I mean? That's what

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I thought of. It was just like I could understand someone feeling like they have an orientation, right?

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They were born with it. I felt like I had an orientation towards envy, but there's hope, man.

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There's hope. This stuff will kill you. If you give yourself your identity to sin, it will destroy you from the inside out.

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Brian's advice here is really good. Envy is not innocent. It will destroy you.

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You will do things you never thought you would do, and it'll kill you. Get rid of it, and you can get rid of it.

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There is hope. You can pray the envy away. It's just that simple. It's just that simple. So anyway,

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I hope you enjoyed this video. I really enjoyed the conversation. I think this is such an important issue because envy, nobody really looks at envy as if it's a good thing, but homosexuality is different.

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Homosexuality is celebrated by many, many, many people as if it's a good thing, and so it's even harder for the homosexual who's desiring things that they ought not desire.

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It's even harder for them than it was for me because my envy, I kept that to myself. I knew that people would look down upon my envy, so it was frowned upon, but in our society, homosexuality is not frowned upon, so we need to speak clearly about this issue.

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We need to speak boldly about this issue because hardly anybody is. In any case,

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I hope you find this conversation helpful. So, welcome to the channel.

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I have Dr. Jared Moore. Now, Dr. Jared Moore requested to come on the channel, and I was, of course, happy to oblige.

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Why don't you introduce yourself, Jared, and we can talk about why you wanted to come on the channel.

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What important message do you have for the world? Sure. I was saved in a

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Southern Baptist church and been in Southern Baptist ministry, pastoral ministry, since about 2000.

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I have a doctorate from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Systematic Theology, and the reason why

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I wanted to come on the show is just to get the word out about just how prevalent in the

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Southern Baptist Convention and evangelicalism as a whole, the teaching that same -sex attraction is not sin.

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Basically, we have an unbiblical, many people have an unbiblical view of sin, and that's based on man's will rather than based on the holiness of God.

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Okay, so let me stop you real quick because we're definitely going to get into it, and I just want to make sure that I'm upfront about this,

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Jared. So, I know a little bit about some of the controversy you've stirred up in the last week, but I've purposely not gone too deep into it because I wanted to, you know, talk to you and just kind of be as fresh as possible.

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Now, it's impossible to be totally fresh because, you know, you kicked up a little bit of a hornet's nest, and I'm glad you did.

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I really am because this is, to me, I know why I think this is important, but I wanted to ask you, you know, why don't we talk about what hornet's nest you kind of kicked up, you know, what is the actual issue that you think evangelicals are wrong about or soft about or unbiblical about, like you just said, and why do you think it's so important to get this message out?

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Like, what's the big deal? I think anthropology, not theology, has been driving the conversation to where, you know, you have to take a poll and ask how people feel whether or not, you know, to figure out whether or not they're sinning, you know.

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So let's back up. Let's just back up just a little bit. Let's just assume someone else has no idea what we're talking about, right? What is the issue here?

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Same -sex attraction, people are saying it's not a sin. Is that what you're saying? Yes. Yeah, they're saying it's not sin.

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It's only sin when you act on it. So they're grounding sin in the will and man's ability rather than in God's holiness.

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And, you know, the two great commands, love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, love your neighbor as yourself.

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Same -sex attraction does not do that. So therefore, it is sin. And so that's my concern.

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They're trying to use rhetoric to take away people's guilt rather than using the gospel.

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Yeah. So the idea here is, and again, I'm trying to keep it ultra, you know, basic right now in case someone hasn't heard this.

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So the idea is that the actual same -sex attraction, like if there was a guy, a friend of mine, and he admitted to me, he said, look, you know, like I'm attracted to guys, like I'm sexually attracted to other men, that in and of itself, whether he acts on it or not, whether he decides to go to a gay club or decides to go on a gay dating site or decides to look at gay porn, just the attraction is what you're saying is actually sinful.

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And you're also saying that a lot of evangelicals are getting this wrong, that they say the attraction is not necessarily sinful unless you act on it.

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Is that the controversy? Oh, yeah, that's right. And my concern is they're saying it's okay to basically look at a man the way that Eve looked at Adam.

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Right. Now, let me ask you this, because when I heard some of the names that you had mentioned that believe this, right, some of them

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I was not surprised at all, right? Some of them I was, you know, like Doug Wilson was a big one that you had kind of named and, you know, he's kind of written an article that I have not read, but I've heard it's like, eh, you know, kind of helpful, kind of not, like, you know, that's what

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I've heard. And I'm going to I wanted to go in fresh, Jared, you know what I mean? But anyway, like, so how is it that this, like, what's the big deal here?

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Like, do you think it's just as simple as grounding this in people's feelings? Because some of these guys are, you know, they're smart people, they're trustworthy in many ways.

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How are they being fooled by this one? They, number one, they automatically assume that same sex attraction is original sin.

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And so they want to say it's part of your ontology. It's something you can't escape.

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It's unchangeable, indelible, you know, that they want to argue that with no biblical proof.

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Again, it's anthropology. They go to people and people say they can't stop being gay. And so therefore, they've literally based their theology on that.

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And so that's my concern on that end, saying it is original sin rather than a motion of original sin.

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Two, I don't believe homosexual orientation exists. I mean, you know, these people who say they're same sex attracted, are they attracted to every single man on earth?

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Are they attracted to their father, their brother, their sons? No, they're not.

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They're attracted to particular individuals. And so the inclination springs up from within them.

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It's not like they're living in a state of homosexuality. I mean, are they gay when they sleep?

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Are they gay when they're around their dad? You know, like it's just, we've given away so much on the language and there's not a shred of Bible to argue those things.

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It's like, go ahead. No, no, I'm listening. I'm just tracking with you. Yeah, it's an

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SBC term, you know, I'm tracking. Yeah, yeah, for real, Matt Chandler, which he's awful on this too.

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He endures Sprinkles ministry, Preston Sprinkle. So, okay, so let me ask you this.

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So then, okay, so people are wrong about this. And if you want to, Jared, you mentioned in the beginning, you want to talk about some of the

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SBC people, because of course the biggest denomination, the non -denomination denomination in the country, you know, they're very influential.

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These are people that, you know, they're influential in our Christian culture. If you want to go into some of the quotations, that's totally fine.

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But I guess, let me ask you this before we get into that. So for someone who experiences attractions to particular men, right?

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I, of course, I mean, obviously they're not going to experience attraction to all men. But for those people that are, and they don't want to, right?

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And they're, they feel like they're working at it, they're praying, you know, their pastor knows about it, everything like that.

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I mean, what's the message for them? I mean, can they be saved and not ever get fully get rid of these attractions, even as they work at it?

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I mean, what is the message for homosexuals, people that experience that kind of desire? Well, first, the language of experience,

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I would say that they're having these desires. Using the language, they experience these desires means that they're trying to, they use that language to try to take away culpability.

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But when you read Romans 7, Paul says, I sin, when he's talking about his flesh.

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He doesn't say, I'm experiencing sin. He says, I sin, I do what I hate.

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And I hate what I do, who's going to save me from this body of death, like the way he talks about his flesh is not the way that these people talk about theirs.

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So it's an unbiblical designation to act like it's something that's happening to them. The fact is, is that their flesh wants it.

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They want it through their flesh. If they didn't, they wouldn't be having the desire. And so they, you know, we've got to get that part right.

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And then they need to be treated like any other sinner. I mean, you still battle sinful desires.

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I still battle sinful desires. They have not completely stopped in me. They haven't completely stopped in you. On this side of glory, they won't.

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So why are we treating this sin as if it's different from literally all of our sins?

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Like just because people sin differently than us doesn't mean that we've got to come up with a new formula to try to figure out how to help these folks.

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I mean, if you have to cease from sinful inclinations in order to be saved, then only

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Jesus, I mean, he's never had a sinful inclination. Only Jesus is saved and none of us are.

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And so, you know, we have to, and it's interesting when you look at like the qualifications of a pastor, they're all outward.

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Like it's someone else looking at someone and saying they're qualified. It's not, is there any sin in the person's heart?

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You know, but it doesn't change that there's sin in the heart. This is really good because, you know, we often will, when we're talking of homosexuality in particular, we often will with our mouths say, you know, it's like any other sin.

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You can be saved from it. You can, you know, God's grace is sufficient for you. We say that, but we actually don't really treat it that way.

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You know what I mean? We don't treat it like it's the same as any other sin. That's such a good point. And, you know, to be honest, like when

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I think of like the various sins in my life, you know, I often will try to use that kind of language about it, where I'm experiencing this desire, this thing, and that's like a mechanism that I use for myself to kind of justify myself.

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And so, but other people from the outside would be like, well, no, that's, you know, like you're greedy.

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That's what your problem is. You're a greedy person. You know what I mean? You need to repent of being a greedy person.

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They wouldn't say, oh, you're just experiencing greed, AD. You know what I mean? They wouldn't say that. So it's like, as much as we want to talk about it, it's like any other sin.

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You're saying most people don't treat it like just any other sin. They treat it like a special category.

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And that's damaging is your point. Oh yeah. They're treating people like victims and victims have no need to repent.

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You know, victims are not sinning. So if somebody says, look,

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I have these desires, right? I don't want them. You would tell that person to repent like any other person that has a desire that they don't want.

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Continue. Yes. Yeah. I would tell them, you know, repent of everything that's contrary to God in you and where you fall short, rest in the righteousness of Jesus.

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You're saved based on his performance, not your own. Jared, do you think that there, because here's the thing, like,

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I think everyone kind of knows that homosexuality is treated differently than a lot of desires in our culture just in general, right?

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In the church, are there any other sins like this where you kind of like give them like a victim status for wanting it, for desiring it?

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Can you think of anything else that's sort of like this or is this unique in the church? In the past, heterosexual lust was often given a pass as far as men lusting after women.

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Sure. Boys will be boys kind of thing. Like every man's struggle sort of thing.

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Yes. And we've probably all heard horror stories of, you know,

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I've heard stories from people in my church, them growing up where a deacon committed adultery with a young lady in the church and they ended up ostracizing that young lady instead of the deacon.

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I believe he kept being a deacon and that's insane. Yeah, it really is.

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It really is. That's actually a really good point. So yeah, I remember, and this is something,

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I don't know if you've heard this, but I remember hearing Paul Washer talk about this whole thing where like men get together and like, well, you know,

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I'm always going to struggle with lust. And it's like kind of like this, like hopeless sort of, it's just part of me. It's just who I am.

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And I remember like this video that I had watched from Paul Washer, he just completely rejected that.

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He said, there are definitely people who have beaten lust and you can do it too through the power of the Holy Spirit.

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And I remember that like, that like changed my whole life. Like this was like a decade ago, I watched this, maybe not quite that long, but I had always kind of experienced that kind of men's group where it's just like, you know,

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I mean, we're trying, but you know, you can't expect too much from us, you know, that's a good point. So it's not like this is unique.

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There's been other sins like this, but this is kind of like the thing of the moment is what you're saying. So you're not picking on homosexuals, is that right?

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Right. I just think it's a, that and the transgender issue are just kind of atomic bombs that are being dropped on the church as far as there's a big push.

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There's not really, there's not really a big push to be accepting of lust though.

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Yeah. Like, yeah, I mean, heterosexual lust that I see. I mean, I preach against it in every church

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I've served and this is 20, 21 years. Yeah. So it's almost like we have to be a little bit more, in my opinion, a little bit more vigilant here because there is so much preaching pro -homosexuality, whereas lust, even back in the day, probably it wasn't like, they were like, okay, you should go have an affair with someone from the church.

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It wasn't like that. Even if it was swept under the rug, it wasn't like promoted, so to speak. Right. This is being promoted.

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Yes. It's being promoted and, you know, they don't care to, pastors who teach this way don't care to, they don't care to name names on the other side or to bad mouth other pastors who aren't as, you know, loving as they are.

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Sure, sure. When the truth is, it's hate. You know, if you tell someone who is sinning that they're not, you hate them.

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I mean, this is not you loving them. This is you hating them. Yeah. Do you think this is a heresy?

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Like, does this rise to the level of a heresy? I think it does, just based on, depending on how we define heresy.

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Sure. You know, both Roman Catholics and Protestants would say this is heresy up to the 1500s.

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And then the Protestants would go all the way up, you know, the Roman Catholics would probably go up to about 1700s and call it heresy.

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And then Protestants would go up to probably the 1900s and call it heresy.

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Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. All right. So let's talk about the SPC. You mentioned that there's a lot of very popular people that are promoting this.

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What? Give me some names. And if you have quotations ready, let's talk about some of those.

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Sure. J .D. Greer, his famous sermon about, God whispers about homosexual sin, but shouts about materialism.

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Yeah. And it's just empty rhetoric. All this is empty rhetoric. Yeah. You know, what bothers me is that instead of saying that homosexuality is as bad as the

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Bible says it is, they use the sin list or the vice list to say whatever they view as the least, you know, offensive or least heinous sin in that list, they say homosexuality is like that.

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Right. When Paul in Romans 1 is arguing the opposite.

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Right. It's due to upside down worship. That's at the beginning of Romans 1.

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Right. Least upside down sexuality. And then they just dive headlong into all manner of sin.

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And so it's this downward spiral. It is not that, you know, the smallest sin on that list, homosexuality is like that.

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No, everything on that list is like homosexuality. It's due to turning creation upside down.

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Right. The reason why they dive into it, you know, and but J .D. Greer, and, you know, something that bothers me about the elites, they just say they were misunderstood or whatever, and they'll leave those sermons up to continue to teach thousands of people.

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And how can you be misunderstood on that? Like, what if he had said the same thing about racism? Bible whispers about racism.

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Yeah. You know, and he would immediately take that down. He would never say that because it's not the darling sin of our culture.

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Yeah. And so J .D. Greer and then Ed Litton copied his sermons, and so he argued the same thing.

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And Bart Barber says that same sex attraction is not sin. You know, so evidently you have to be, in order to be

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SBC president, you have to believe that same sex attraction is not sin. Yeah. It's ridiculous.

26:16

It is ridiculous. I think, but this is the thing though, like, so Jared, like, when people hear

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J .D. Greer say that the Bible whispers about same sex or homosexuality, or sexual sin is what he said, and all that, like,

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I feel like, okay, you know, liberals love it. You know, the people that kind of do the hero worship thing, they love it.

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But like, conservative Christians, like actual conservative Christians that aren't woke, they hear that, and they're like,

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I don't buy that. Like, that doesn't sit right. That doesn't make sense. I know the Bible doesn't whisper about this.

26:50

That's wrong. They can see that as wrong, right? But when it comes to the same sex attraction thing, whether or not that's actually sin,

26:59

I feel like the conservatives are a pretty mixed bag, whether or not they would agree. You know what

27:05

I mean? So there's something about that that the people aren't quite understanding. Like, we understand the

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Bible does not whisper about homosexuality. We get that. But on the attraction thing, there's just such a divide.

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Like, how is it, it just seems like it should be clear that that's a disordered desire.

27:24

It's not natural in any way. It's a degradation of the Imago Dei. It's just completely, it's a hateful thing to desire.

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Because we, I don't know, I'm trying to, Jared, maybe you thought of this, maybe you just don't know.

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But like, how is it that that, it just seems so obvious. Why is that one tripping people up? I think they ground sin in the wheel, similar to a local court.

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You know, man looks upon the outward actions, but God looks on the heart. That's the whole point of the Sermon on the

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Mount. You know, Jesus is not listing something we can accomplish. His whole point is that none of you have accomplished this.

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Now only I have, only I am accomplishing this. Only I am pure in heart. I've had

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Jared, I've had Jared people that I've talked to, and I'm not going to name them because they're not like public figures, and it's not, it's not important.

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But people that like, I would be eye to eye with on so much theology, you know, 90 % of it, they're solid.

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I've had people that have gone really far with this whole thing about the desires, right? And they would say, look,

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I don't know how this works, but the Bible says that Jesus was tempted in all things, so therefore, he must have had this temptation as well.

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This temptation to homosexuality. I've had people say that to me, and I remember when they said that to me, it blew my mind, like, that they would say that.

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Like, that seems so shockingly, obviously, terribly, horrendously, you know, evil to say about the

28:54

Lord. But I feel like that is, that's, that's an inevitable sort of like, if you buy into this too much, like, you,

29:01

I guess you kind of have to think that. Have you heard that before? I mean, is that just me?

29:07

No, that's, that's the default argument. People are trying to use Jesus's temptation to just, to justify their own sinful desires.

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And in Hebrews 415, the whole point of the chapter, the whole book of Hebrews is saying that Jesus is better than you.

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I mean, the whole, the whole book. Imagine that, imagine that, Jared. He's better than you.

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He's better than all the Old Testament high priests. And so the point of Hebrews 415 is not to say you're, you can be like Jesus.

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It's saying he is truly human and sinless. He's like you in his true humanity. He's really tempted like you, but yet without sin.

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So he's not like you, he's better than you. That's why you need him to be your mediator.

29:54

You need him to be your high priest. That's why, don't return to the Old Testament high priest. You have a high priest who's eternal,

30:01

Jesus. Yeah. Do you, so you mentioned, of course, okay, so actually let's, let's go back to the

30:07

SBC. So J .D. Greer, you know, a lot of people dunked on that, rightfully so, was really stupid to say.

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Edla, and even more so because he stole, he decided that was so awesome that he stole it. That boggles my mind, but whatever.

30:19

Let's go on to somebody else. Who else? Patrick Schreiner is one that comes to mind. He's a

30:25

Midwestern. He is a New Testament professor at Midwestern. So this is

30:30

Tom Schreiner's son. Okay. And he used to be at Western Seminary.

30:36

When he's at Western Seminary, we went back and forth on a Desiring God article on Facebook. Over this issue.

30:42

And so I knew where he stood and I'm surprised they got hired at Midwestern. And so he actually has an article.

30:49

He's actually deleted it. It was in 2015, 2015.

30:55

And, um, it was called, let's see, it was called a primer on whether same -sex attraction is sinful.

31:04

Okay. And so he deleted that article, but in 2000, in 2019, he recommended a sermon by John Tyson.

31:12

You can still find this on his Twitter. And John Tyson's a pastor in New York and John.

31:18

So I went and listened to the sermon and he assumes that same -sex attraction is ontology. It's just who you are.

31:24

It gets to the end and he says, same -sex attraction sin. He says no. And he quotes

31:29

James one. And then 30 seconds later, he starts talking about hypocrisy and how the church, if they find, if you find any hypocrisy in your heart, you need to repent from it, resist it, reject it.

31:45

I'm like, you don't have to repent of same -sex attraction in your heart. Right. But you do have hypocrisy because that's really bad.

31:52

Jesus really hates hypocrisy. This is, this is an easy, this is an easy way to put this.

31:58

I think the problem here. So like if I admitted to my pastor, you know, look like I've, I've been, you know, lusting after women that weren't my wife, you know,

32:08

I haven't acted on it. I mean, I haven't watched any porn, but it's just, I just feel it. You know what I mean? I would be told to repent of that.

32:17

Obviously. Right. I would be told that, that, that was not, that was not a good thing.

32:22

Right. You can't get around that. Like that's what the sermon on the Mount says. Like that's like, you can't get around that.

32:28

Right. If I was, if I told my pastor that, you know, like I'm, I'm, I'm boiling on the inside with jealousy because my neighbor has a nice house and you know, whatever it is like, you know, that a lot of new car and I can't afford one,

32:41

I would be told that, that, that's, that's something to repent of. That's a sin. You know, that's, that's something that's, that's wrong.

32:48

That's something that's wrong in my soul and my heart, you know? So this is not complicated, but it's really not complicated because the thing is, the thing is,

32:58

Jared, I think a lot of us, if we think back at like, cause when I, when I converted, one of the things that I was, I was just given over to was, was, was a complete envy of, of everybody.

33:09

Like I was doing well at work. I lived in New York city. I was doing really well, but like even people that weren't doing quite as well as me, if they had success at work,

33:17

I like, I hated them. Like it was just palpable. I could feel it. And I never,

33:23

I don't remember a time not having those feelings prior to that. Right? Like I just always had them. The fact that I, I, I just like had them in my opinion at the time, that wasn't an excuse for them.

33:36

Like I obviously had to get rid of that. Nobody in their right mind would say, oh no, it's okay.

33:41

It's just part of who you are. You just are envious of people. You don't want them to do well. You only want to be the only one doing well.

33:47

And I hate, I hated that about myself, I really did. And so this is very easy.

33:55

Homosexuality is not different or special in that regard. It's, it's like that. You have to repent of that is what you're saying.

34:03

That's it. It's pretty basic. Yep. There's no controversy. I just don't get it.

34:08

It just seems so obvious to me. And look, I don't know about the exact, like, is it heresy?

34:14

Is it not? I just don't, I'm not that trained in that kind of stuff. So whatever, but it just seems so basic.

34:20

I just don't understand, Jared. Sorry to interrupt you. No, no, you're right. It is basic.

34:27

It is basic. It's just, it's just sin.

34:33

People want to be viewed as empathetic or part of it is they've gotten away from the confessions, gotten away from exegesis.

34:43

And instead they've started asking people how they feel about their sin. And like, just what you said, you said,

34:49

I just had it. And as far as I know, I've always had it. That's exactly how people who have same sex desires describe them.

34:58

And because of their memory, it's turned theology on this issue upside down, which makes no sense.

35:06

We need to read the Bible. And if we find in there, in the

35:11

Bible that, you know, desires that are contrary to God or inclinations that are contrary to God are not sin, then so be it.

35:18

But that is not what the Bible says at all. We are responsible for everything in us that's contrary to God.

35:26

Yeah. And it just seems like, like the, the impulse, and this is me guessing, but you know, it's an educated guess.

35:35

The impulse is that if you take this stand that the desires themselves have to be repented of, and these people are telling you that this is part of who they are ever since they were 12 or whatever, you know, they've always known that, that, that you're not going to have an opportunity to minister to those people that I feel like that's probably where it comes from.

35:55

Cause I don't, I don't think a lot of these people like feel like they're doing the wrong thing. I'm not saying that they're doing the, not doing the wrong thing, but they don't feel like it.

36:02

They want to be able to minister. They want to be able to talk to the homosexual community, whatever that supposed to mean.

36:08

And so they think this is the way to do it. Right. But to me, and Jared, do you, do you think that this, there is, there's, is there any legitimacy to that?

36:18

Cause it seems to me like you're almost stumbling them a little bit, like that you're putting a stumbling block in front of them. You're, you're tickling.

36:25

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're telling them what they want to hear and you're trying to, Jesus wouldn't do that.

36:32

Paul wouldn't do that. The prophets wouldn't do that. Nobody. I mean, show me someone in scripture that would do that.

36:39

We would see it instantly if we did it about, like you said, racism or lust or envy or anything, we would see it.

36:47

Homosexuality is not special in that way. Right. It's not special in that way. And I think to your point about Romans, you know, how it's like people try to make the opposite point where it's like, yeah, but the point is though, whatever point you're trying to make with that, you know, it's not special.

37:05

It's in that list. You know what I mean? It's in that vice list. It's not special. It's not a special category. So like,

37:11

I think that really what you're saying is you're just looking for people to treat it just like any other sin.

37:18

Because part of what revoice has done that's hurt people, you know, revoices that yearly annual conference where they separate same sex attraction from same sex sexual attraction.

37:30

So you can't act on your same sex sexual attraction, but you can act on your same sex attraction, your homosexual orientation through friendships.

37:39

And so revoice argues that and they try to, they try to,

37:47

I mean, you imagine trying to do that with any other sin, like trying to do it with racism saying, saying there is same race beauty and same race partiality and like trying to separate.

38:03

Right. And if you do that with that form of sexual attraction, you have to do with every attraction under the sun.

38:12

And there, you know, there are groups out there arguing for bestiality and pedophilia.

38:17

And if we get it, if we get this wrong, you know, we're, we're going to get that wrong as well.

38:25

We can't come against, you know, I had one pastor tell me one time, well, pedophilia is, is always predatory, but that's not what the

38:34

DSM argues. Sure. You know, the American Psychiatric Association's so -called Bible, which is just a bunch of men and women in a room with a lot of letters on their names voting.

38:48

Yeah. That's all that thing is. Well, that reminds me of people that would say, because the thing is like, like they've, they've already run that trick on us.

38:58

So in other words, like, like homosexual, you know, sex and relationships is always hateful, but they've, but they've told us that it's, it's actually, it could be a loving version of that.

39:07

They're, and in fact, many Christians believe that, that there's like a loving version of that. And, and so like, they've already scammed us on that play before.

39:16

You know what I mean? Yeah, sure. Pedophilia is always predatory and, and hateful, but like, that's not, but they've already lied to us in that way.

39:25

We've already fallen for that lie elsewhere. You know what I mean? So why wouldn't we fall for it again? Right.

39:30

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. So anyone else that you want to mention, you know, in particular,

39:37

I mean, I want to give you the opportunity to do that. And then I want to ask you afterwards, you know, sort of what's the way forward, like, you know, pastors out there, you know, how, how do they talk about these things?

39:47

Cause you even, you know, corrected something I said, you know, cause here's the thing, like I, I've kind of grown up and I've realized this, that the propaganda has affected me so much, even in the way

39:57

I talk about things and the way I think about things, like it, it affects me and I'm, and I'm constantly correcting myself.

40:04

So I appreciate you doing that. I'm going to ask you the way forward is how do we talk? How do we make sure that we're talking about this the right way?

40:11

We're thinking about this the right way, but any other SPC pastors first that you want to mention go, go right ahead.

40:17

Let me mention a Shriner, his quote. Okay, sure. He says, if same -sex orientation is not reduced to the sexual act, then the orientation itself is not sinful.

40:29

So he basically what revoiced argued that you can separate homosexual orientation from, from homosexual sexual orientation.

40:37

Like there's, there's, but the thing is they argue that it's caused by the fall that it came from the fall.

40:43

So they're saying, they're saying that the flesh produces good, that they can sanctify their flesh.

40:48

And that is not what the Bible teaches. In my dissertation, I argue that people who are having these desires, they should find an opposite sex friend.

40:59

And that's what they should pursue instead of basing everything on their so called sexuality.

41:05

It's just nothing but introspection. They need to base it on God's design.

41:10

God, you are not your feelings. You are not your inclinations. You are who God says you are.

41:17

And he says you're a male or a female and you need to pursue an opposite sex person for marriage.

41:23

I mean, that's the default setting of humanity. Now there are exceptions where God gives, you know, special supernatural gifts of singleness, but almost everyone who attends

41:33

Revoice, they talk about being lonely. Like they're, they literally desire marriage, but they think that they're somehow handicapped from having it.

41:42

Right. They're not. They're not. And, um, so Shriner, so a lot of this, sorry, go ahead.

41:49

Continue. Shriner's mistaken. I mean, he's just, he's just flat out wrong on this.

41:54

It just burdens me that he is teaching this, um, at Midwestern, you know,

42:00

Midwestern, I believe has the national statement and Southeastern has the national statement in Southern.

42:07

And, um, but those who signed the national statement, you know, they, uh, they still argue that same sex attraction is not sin.

42:16

This is, so this is like respectable people that probably would stand out, stand up against Revoice, the, the conference, but they're making the same error as Revoice, just not in a, not in a, excuse the word, but flamboyant way.

42:32

Revoice is flamboyant. They're not. And it's just that, and, but it's the same error is what you're saying. They're, they're saying it's not, you can't make it part of your identity.

42:40

That's what the national statement, that's the good that came out of the national statement. That's good. Condemning transgenderism outright.

42:46

Yeah. But, but the national statement condemns homosexual immorality. It qualifies, it doesn't condemn homosexuality.

42:55

It condemns homosexual immorality. Um, but it, which is an awkward thing to say because homosexual homosexuality is immorality.

43:03

Yes. So it's a very, nobody would say racist immorality. No one would say, you know, lustful immorality or whatever, like that they just wouldn't.

43:13

The plea here, Jerry, I'm laughing to myself because the plea here is just don't treat it differently, which is ironic because that's kind of how people try to soft pedal it.

43:23

They say, don't treat it differently. Like, what are you, you know, you're going to preach against gluttony too. You don't preach to go gluttony.

43:29

All you preach about is homosexuality. Now we understand what that's about, but like, it's ironic, but that actually, that is what we should do.

43:34

Not treat it differently. Right. I've never met a glutton either. Like, like I, in all my years in the

43:40

Southern Baptist convention, I've never met someone who was actually a glutton based on what the

43:46

Bible described as gluttony in the first century. We don't have to get into that right now, but, but you know what

43:51

I'm trying to say though? It's ironic that that's what's going on here. Interesting. Interesting.

43:57

How do you, what do you suggest for, for pastors out there? Because honestly, like, I know people will look at this and say, oh, you're picking on the gays, you know, things like that.

44:07

Well, if there's any issue that we want to be careful on, it's this one in our culture. This is the issue that is being pushed everywhere.

44:14

This is the, this is orthodoxy that's, you're being forced to make a decision on. You either are with it or you're the enemy.

44:20

We, we understand that this is, if there is an issue to be careful on in morality in the United States, it's this one.

44:26

What is your suggestion for pastors? How do they think about this in the right way?

44:32

Yeah, just turn the page and preach the text, whatever it says, preach it and be unashamed.

44:38

You know, the Bible is the words of life. And it's not just it's not just the words of life when it lifts you up.

44:46

It is the words of life when it crushes you, because we deserve to be crushed. And so that's what you, you know, if you do exposition through books, the

44:58

Bible, you'll, you'll come to this issue and just preach it in its, in its fullness and call everyone to repentance, to reject anything in themselves that's contrary to God and to rejoice in Christ and trust that he's making them new that God is conforming us to the image of Jesus.

45:16

You know, that that's the goal. And that, that's what I would encourage, encourage them to do is just continue preaching the word.

45:26

And don't worry, don't worry about how you're going to be received. That's so good, man.

45:31

Yeah. I I've said on my channel once before there was a, Jared, I don't know if you knew this, but I, I, I pastored a church for,

45:37

I don't know, a few years, a while back and I'm no longer a pastor, but I remember at the time

45:43

I had an older man, he was an ex -pastor, you know, he was since retired, but you know, in his nineties, an old, old man that he, we, we would chat every now and then, and he would, he would call me and he would, he was the kind of guy, he was old enough to like repeat his stories, you know, and but it was cool, whatever.

46:02

But one thing he would say every conversation we ever had, like clockwork, you know, Adam, what you need to do is you got to preach the word, you got to preach the word.

46:11

And I remember after like the fifth or sixth time, he told me this, like on the inside, I'm kind of rolling my eyes, you know,

46:16

I'm, I'm respectful, but I'm like, I get it. You know what I mean? Um, but I think what he was trying to tell me was that, that the job is simple.

46:26

You don't need, look, you've got degrees back there and that's good. You've got theological degrees. You studied the word.

46:31

That's good stuff. You don't, the trick that I think is being run right now, you need to be a psychology expert.

46:37

You need to be a public health expert. You need to be, and since you're not, this is the trick by the way, since hardly anybody is, just listen to us because we are the experts.

46:51

Yeah. And so that's why you've got people closing down church. That's why you've got people, you know, kind of falling for this, this idea of orientation, uh, and stuff like that.

47:00

Smart people, you know, they've been tricked in the, in thinking that, that in order to really preach the word, you actually have to preach the word, but also take advice from all of these other experts and things like that.

47:12

And these other fields, which you could not possibly hope to be an expert in. Right. That's a scam, man.

47:18

That's a huge scam. And this 90 year old pastor, he's since passed away. What I think what he was trying to,

47:23

I finally get it. He was trying to tell me, look, this is simple. Be a simple man.

47:29

You've got a book. You've got what God has told you. And that's your job. You know what

47:34

I mean? And look, doctors are great. It's good to have a doctor that studies the brain for, you know, 20 years and can do brain surgery on you.

47:42

That's great. That's not you though. Your job is to preach the word. It's simple. It's not flashy.

47:49

Sometimes people are going to hate you for it, but that's what your it's the only job. That's what you got to do.

47:55

Yeah. I think that's what he was getting at. And so when you said that right there, that kind of reminded me of those conversations.

48:02

It's like, I was rolling my eyes, but really like that's the focus. That's how you avoid problems.

48:08

That's how you avoid teaching errors and hurting people in the process. Good stuff, man.

48:14

Turn the page and preach the text and love the people. I mean, that's really what it's about.

48:21

And, you know, John MacArthur has been staunch on this issue. He's never really wavered on it.

48:28

And there's a story, it's been several years ago, but there was one of the guy who organized the first gay pride march in LA.

48:41

He got AIDS and he was raised evangelical. And of all the churches he could go to, he went to MacArthur's church because he knew that MacArthur would preach the truth.

48:55

And so people who really want to come out of this lifestyle, they're not going to go to these churches that are soft paddling this stuff.

49:03

They're going to go to the churches that are preaching the truth that will tell them and actually help them leave that lifestyle, not justified.

49:12

And so if you want to have like a, you know, a safe space, quote unquote, for the so -called gay community where they can be, you know, where they can be sinning in their hearts, continually enjoying with other people who are, you're not going to really reach people.

49:32

I mean, that's not the goal. The goal is sinless perfection in Christ. That's the goal. I know we'll never reach it on this side of glory, but the goal is to be like Jesus.

49:42

He didn't have any of these desires. That's beautiful, man. God bless you,

49:48

Jared. Thank you so much for coming on the channel. Where can people find you? Are you online? I don't even know if you're online.

49:54

Where can people find you? I'm on Twitter at Jared H. Moore. You can find me on there. I just started a new

50:00

YouTube channel, Dr. Jared Moore. I've got like nine subscribers, so I'm moving on up.

50:09

You're going to have 10 after this call, I'll tell you that. That's right, man. That's right. But you can check those out.

50:15

And I've got a couple books coming out this year from Free Grace Press on this subject. I haven't got the dates for release yet, but.

50:22

God bless you. I'm going to turn off the recording and we'll chat a little bit after this. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you, brother.

50:28

Yeah, no, definitely. I thought that was a great conversation, guys, and I hope you did as well. If you have any questions or follow -up, put them in the comments section.

50:38

I may have Jared come on a follow -up because I am going to kind of check, dive into the other side a little bit more.

50:44

Like I said in the video, I wanted to be fresh for this conversation, so I haven't really seen too much in depth about what

50:51

Doug has said in response and all of that. So I've heard stuff about it. So, you know, whatever.