Evangelicals Treating Homosexuality like a Special Sin - Dr. Jared Moore

Hello. The conversation you are about to watch is really good. I got a lot of benefit out of it, and I hope you do as well. It's with Pastor Jared Moore, and Jared is the pastor who, in the last few weeks, has been causing a big stir in our circles, and it's about homosexuality and homosexual desires.

He's the one that's been saying that guys like Doug Wilson are soft on it, and I thought it would be really interesting to talk to him, because I love Doug Wilson, but I'm also not opposed to Doug Wilson being wrong.

In fact, if you look at the scoreboard of controversies between something Doug has said and something I've said, it's like 2 -0, I'm up. I can't even say that with a straight face. But in any case, but yeah, seriously though, I'm not opposed to him being wrong.

I've called him wrong before, so this is no surprise in terms of that. But the whole conversation is good, but there's one moment in this where I totally get it, right? Like a light bulb goes off for me, and I actually already agreed with what Jared was saying even prior to this conversation, but this is where the light bulb went off.

Jared, at one point, he's gonna say he just wants homosexuality and homosexual desires to be treated like any other sin. And I thought that was so interesting, because when we hear that, we often hear someone saying that from the pro-homosexual perspective, where they say, well, you're just hating on homosexuals.

Why don't you hate on gluttons? Why don't you bring up gluttony and stuff like that? They want to flatten the seriousness of all the sins. You hear that from the pro-homosexual perspective, but you don't often hear that from this perspective.

But that was such a major insight. In fact, around that time in the conversation, Jared corrects something that I say, and what I said was something about how I experienced these feelings. Someone would say, I just experienced these feelings, and he said, well, let's just talk about that for a moment, because even capitulating to that, saying I just experienced them, it almost takes the blame away from you, and he just wants you to treat it like any other sin.

This hit home so much for me, because of the sin of envy, which was one of the worst things that I was when I was an unbeliever. I saw this post here from Brian Sauve that just really hit home for me, because this spoke to me.

Here's what Brian Sauve's post says. He says, envy will poison you. Here's how to fight it. Cultivate a joy at others' success. Is a brother crushing it? Don't be a bitter loser. Thank God for his success.

Whatever you do, don't let envy put down roots. Dig it out fast before it's a rottenness in your bones. You know, when I was an unbeliever, I was probably the most envious person that I knew, and it was so bad.

It was to the point where, I mean, obviously, you could kind of probably understand, like, I was in a sales job at the time, right? And you could probably understand, like, if I was going through a rough patch, and I wasn't making sales, and somebody else was, you could, it's still a sin, but you could probably understand me feeling envious over them, right?

But for me, it was way deeper. Like, it didn't matter how well I was doing. I remember I was crushing it. I really was. I was living in New York City, and if you know anything about New York City real estate, number one, that's already an accomplishment in itself, but I was living in Midtown.

My apartment had a view of the Empire State Building and a wood-burning fireplace, and I could afford it, and that was an astronomical amount of rent I paid for this place. That's not to flex or anything, because I quickly lost that money during the Great Recession, but that's, I was doing well, is my point, and even though I was doing well, anytime somebody else also did well, I hated them.

I could feel it. Like, there's just anger in my bones, and I could feel just this disgust. I wanted to be the only one that got accolades. I wanted to be the only one that did well, and even though I was doing great, any other, you know, person at my job that was, you know, kind of comparable or, like, maybe doing a little bit, you know, you know, more in a certain month or certain week, even if I was doing better than them in general, I was so envious, and it was destroying me from the inside, and I hated that about myself.

I hated it, but to me, it felt like it was just there. It was just a feeling. I just was experiencing it, and, like, it was just, like, part of me. It just, like, I couldn't see, I couldn't remember a time when I wasn't that, you know what I mean?

But that was, even though that's what it felt like, it felt like it was a core aspect of my being, what I was doing was sinning. I was sinning. I was giving myself to sin, and I wasn't even fighting it.

I was, like, I was sinning in the feeling. The experience of the feeling, I would never use that term about it. I was sinning. When I came to Christ, I knew I had to get rid of this envy, and I prayed, and I prayed, and I tried to pray the envy away, and I took classes.

Totally out of character for me. I think that stuff is nonsense most of the time, but I took classes on it, and I prayed, and what I started to do, and I just said, you know what? I'm just going to try, you know what I mean?

I'm gonna try to be okay with other people's success, and I tried, and it kind of, in the beginning, it kind of felt like I was faking it, like faking it till I make it, but at the same time, I was praying, and all this stuff, and over time, I started actually celebrating, right?

It didn't feel as fake anymore, and I think God was answering my prayers and blessing the efforts that I put forward. It wasn't an overnight fix. It's not like I got saved and my envy was gone like that.

It didn't work that way for me, but over time, and now I'm at a place where I haven't arrived yet necessarily, but I've got a handle on it. There's just no question about it, and it's way better, you know what I mean?

It's way better on this side where I don't have to, I don't feel angry when other people succeed, you know what I mean? Of course, there's still moments. Everyone has their moments, but I repent of those, and I'm working on just completely destroying it, and when Jared said, you know, I just want this to be treated like any other sin, that's what I thought of, you know what I mean?

That's what I thought of. It was like I could understand someone feeling like they have an orientation, right? They were born with it. I felt like I had an orientation towards envy, but there's hope, man.

There's hope. This stuff will kill you. If you give yourself your identity to sin, it will destroy you from the inside out. Brian's advice here is really good. Envy is not innocent. It will destroy you.

You will do things you never thought you would do, and it'll kill you. Get rid of it, and you can get rid of it. There is hope. You can pray the envy away. It's just that simple. It's just that simple.

So anyway, I hope you enjoyed this video. I really enjoyed the conversation. I think this is such an important issue because envy, nobody really looks at envy as if it's a good thing, but homosexuality is different.

Homosexuality is celebrated by many, many people as if it's a good thing, and so it's even harder for the homosexual who's desiring things that they ought not desire. It's even harder for them than it was for me because my envy, I kept that to myself.

I knew that people would look down upon my envy, so it was frowned upon, but in our society, homosexuality is not frowned upon. So we need to speak clearly about this issue. We need to speak boldly about this issue because hardly anybody is.

In any case, I hope you find this conversation helpful. So, welcome to the channel. I have Dr. Jared Moore. Now, Dr. Jared Moore requested to come on the channel, and I was, of course, happy to oblige, and why don't you introduce yourself, Jared, and we can talk about why you wanted to come on the channel.

What important message do you have.

For the world? Sure. I was saved in a Southern Baptist church and was been in Southern Baptist ministry, pastoral ministry, since about 2000. I have a doctorate from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Systematic Theology, and the reason why I wanted to come on the show is just to get the word out about just how prevalent in the Southern Baptist Convention and evangelicalism as a whole, the teaching that same-sex attraction is not sin.

Yeah. Basically, we have an unbiblical, many people have an unbiblical view of sin, and that's based on man's will rather than based on the holiness.

Of God. Okay. So, let me stop you real quick because we're definitely going to get into it, and I just want to make sure that I'm upfront about this, Jared. So, I know a little bit about some of the controversy you've stirred up in the last week, but I've purposely not gone too deep into it because I wanted to talk to you and just be as fresh as possible.

Now, it's impossible to be totally fresh because you kicked up a little bit of a hornet's nest, and I'm glad you did. I really am because this is, to me, I know why I think this is important, but I wanted to ask you, why don't we talk about what hornet's nest you kind of kicked up?

What is the actual issue that you think evangelicals are wrong about or soft about or unbiblical about, like you just said, and why do you think it's so important to get this message out? What's the big deal?

I think anthropology, not theology, has been driving the conversation to where you have to take a poll and ask how people feel to figure out whether or not they're.

Sinning. Let's just back up just a little bit. Let's just assume someone else has no idea what we're talking about, right? What is the issue here? Same-sex attraction, people are saying.

It's not a sin. Is that what you're saying? Yes. Yeah, they're saying it's not sin. It's only sin when you act on it. They're grounding sin in the will and man's ability rather than in God's holiness.

The two great commands, love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, love your neighbor as yourself. Same-sex attraction does not do that, so therefore it is sin. That's my concern. They're trying to use rhetoric to take away.

People's guilt rather than using the gospel. Yeah, so the idea here is, and again, I'm trying to keep it ultra basic right now in case someone hasn't heard this, so the idea is that the actual same-sex attraction, like if there was a guy, a friend of mine, and he admitted to me, he said, look, I'm attracted to guys.

I'm sexually attracted to other men. That in and of itself, whether he acts on it or not, whether he decides to go to a gay club or decides to go on a gay dating site or decides to look at gay porn, just the attraction is what you're saying is actually sinful, and you're also saying that a lot of evangelicals are getting this wrong, that they say the attraction is not necessarily sinful unless you act on it.

Is that the controversy?

Oh yeah, that's right, and my concern is they're saying it's okay to basically look at a man.

The way that Eve looked at Adam. Right, now let me ask you this, because when I heard some of the names that you had mentioned that believe this, some of them I was not surprised at all. Some of them I was, like Doug Wilson was a big one that you had named, and he's written an article that I have not read, but I've heard it's like, eh, kind of helpful, kind of not.

That's what I've heard, and I'm going to read all this stuff. I wanted to go in fresh, Jared, you know what I mean? But anyway, so how is it that this, like, what's the big deal here? Do you think it's just as simple as grounding this in people's feelings?

Because some of these guys are, you know, they're smart people, they're trustworthy in many ways. How are they being fooled by this one?

Number one, they automatically assume that same-sex attraction is original sin. And so they want to say it's part of your ontology, it's something you can't escape, it's unchangeable, indelible, you know, they want to argue that with no biblical proof.

Again, it's anthropology. They go to people and people say they can't stop being gay, and so therefore they've literally based their theology on that. And so that's my concern on that end, saying it is original sin rather than emotion of original sin.

Two, I don't believe homosexual orientation exists. I mean, you know, these people who say they're same-sex attracted, are they attracted to every single man on earth? Are they attracted to their father, their brother, their sons?

No, they're not. They're attracted to particular individuals. And so the inclination springs up from within them. It's not like they're living in a state of homosexuality. I mean, are they gay when they sleep?

Are they gay when they're around their dad? You know, like, it's just we've given away so much on the language, and there's not a shred of bible to argue those things. It's like, go ahead.

No, no, I'm listening. I'm just tracking with you. Yeah, it's to borrow an SBC term,.

You know, I'm tracking. Yeah, yeah, for real. Matt Chandler, which he's awful on this too. He endorsed Sprinkles ministry, Preston Sprinkle. Yeah, awful. So, okay, so let me ask you this. So.

Okay, so people are wrong about this. And if you want to, Jared, you mentioned in the beginning, you want to talk about, you know, some of the SBC people because, of course, the biggest non-denomination denomination in the country, you know, they're very influential.

These are people that, you know, they're influential in our Christian culture. If you want to go into some of the quotations, that's totally fine. But I guess, let me ask you this before we get into that.

So for someone who experiences attractions to particular men, right? Of course, I mean, obviously, they're not going to experience attraction to all men. But for those people that are, and they don't want to, right?

And they feel like they're working at it, they're praying, you know, their pastor knows about it, everything like that. I mean, what's the message for them? I mean, and not ever get fully get rid of these attractions, even as they work at it.

I mean, what is the message for homosexuals, people that experience that kind of desire?

Well, first, the language of experience, I would say that they're having these desires. Using the language, they experience these desires means that they're trying to, they use that language to try to take away culpability.

But when you read Romans 7, Paul says, I sin. He's talking about his flesh. He doesn't say I'm experiencing sin. He says, I sin, I do what I hate. And I hate what I do. Who's going to save me from this body of death?

Like the way he talks about his flesh is not the way that these people talk about theirs. So it's an unbiblical designation to act like it's something that's happening to them. The fact is, is that their flesh wants it.

They want it through their flesh. If they didn't, they wouldn't be having the desire. And so we've got to get that part right. And then they need to be treated like any other sinner. I mean, you still battle sinful desires.

I still battle sinful desires. They have not completely stopped in me. They haven't completely stopped in you. On this side of glory, they won't. So why are we treating this sin as if it's different from literally all of our sins?

Just because people sin differently than us doesn't mean that we've got to come up with a new formula to try to figure out how to help these folks. I mean, if you have to cease from sinful inclinations in order to be saved, then only Jesus.

I mean, he's never had a sinful inclination. Only Jesus is saved, and none of us are. And so we have to, and it's interesting when you look at the qualifications of a pastor, they're all outward. It's someone else looking at someone and saying they're qualified.

It's not, is there any sin in the person's heart? But it doesn't change that there's sin in the heart.

This is really good because we often will, when we're talking of homosexuality in particular, we often will with our mouths say, it's like any other sin. You can be saved from it. God's grace is sufficient for you.

We say that, but we actually don't really treat it that way. We don't treat it like it's the same as any other sin. That's such a good point. And to be honest, when I think of the various sins in my life, I often will try to use that kind of language about it where I'm experiencing this desire, this thing, and that's a mechanism that I use for myself to kind of justify myself.

But other people from the outside would be like, well, no, that's, you're greedy. That's what your problem is. You're a greedy person. You need to repent of being a greedy person. They wouldn't say, oh, you're just experiencing greed, A .D.

They wouldn't say that. So it's like, as much as we want to talk about it, it's like any other sin. You're saying most people don't treat it like just any other sin. They treat it like a special category.

And that's damaging is your point. Oh yeah. They're treating people like victims.

And victims have no need to repent. Victims are not sinning. So if somebody says, look, I.

Have these desires, right? I don't want them. You would tell that person to repent like any other person that has a desire that they don't want. Continue. Yes. Yeah. I would tell them, you know,.

Repent of everything that's contrary to God in you and where you fall short, rest in the.

Performance, not your own. Jared, do you think that there, because here's the thing, like, I think everyone kind of knows that homosexuality is treated differently than a lot of desires in our culture, just in general, right?

In the church, are there any other sins like this where you kind of like give them like a victim status for wanting it, for desiring it? Can you think of anything else that's sort of like this or is this unique in the church?

In the past, heterosexual.

Lust was often given a pass as far as men lusting after women. Sure. Like a boys will be boys kind.

Of thing, like every man struggle sort of thing. Yes. And we've probably all heard horror stories.

Of, you know, I've heard stories from people in my church, them growing up where a deacon committed adultery with a young lady in the church and they ended up ostracizing that young lady instead of the deacon.

I believe he kept being a deacon and that's insane. Yeah, it really is.

It really is. That's actually a really good point. So, yeah, I remember, and this is something, I don't know if you've heard this, but I remember hearing Paul Washer talk about this whole thing where like men get together and like, well, you know, I'm always going to struggle with lust.

And it's like kind of like this hopeless sort of, it's just part of me, it's just who I am. And I remember like this video that I had watched from Paul Washer, he would just completely rejected that. He said, there are definitely people who have beaten lust and you can do it too through the power of the Holy Spirit.

And I remember that like, that like changed my whole life. Like this was like a decade ago I watched this, maybe not quite that long, but I had always kind of experienced that kind of men's group where it's just like, you know, I mean, we're trying, but you can't expect too much from us.

That's a good point. So it's not like this is unique. There's been other sins like this, but this is kind of like the thing of the moment is what you're saying. So you're not picking on homosexuals, is that right?

Right. I just think it's a.

That and the transgender issue are just kind of atomic bombs that are being dropped on the church as far as there's a big push. There's not really, there's not really a big push to be accepting of lust though.

Yeah. Like, yeah. I mean, heterosexual lust that I see, I mean, I preach against it in every church I've served and this is 20, 21 years. Yeah. So it's almost like we have to be a little.

Bit more, in my opinion, a little bit more vigilant here because there is so much preaching pro homosexuality, whereas lust, even back in the day, probably it wasn't like, they were like, okay, you should go have an affair with someone from the church.

It wasn't like that. Even if it was swept under the rug, it wasn't like promoted, so to speak. Right. This is being.

Promoted. Yes. It's being promoted and, you know, they don't care to, pastors who teach this way don't care to, they don't care to name names on the other side or to bad mouth other pastors who aren't as, you know, loving as they are.

Sure. When the truth is, it's hate. You know, if you, if you tell someone who is sinning that they're not, you're, you hate them. I mean, this, this is not you loving them. This is you hating them. Yeah.

Do you think this is a heresy? Like, does this rise to the level of a heresy? I think it does just based on, depending on how we define heresy. Sure. You know, both Roman Catholics and Protestants would say this is heresy up to the 1500s.

And then the Protestants would go all the way up, you know, the Roman Catholics would probably go up to about 1700s and call it heresy. And then Protestants would go up to probably the 1900s and call it heresy.

Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. All right. So let's talk about the SPC.

You mentioned that there's a lot of very popular people that are promoting this. What, give me some names and if you have quotations ready, let's talk about some of those.

Sure. J .D. Greer, his famous sermon about God whispers about homosexual sin, but shouts about materialism. Yeah. And it's just empty rhetoric. All this is empty rhetoric. Yeah. You know, what bothers me is that instead of saying that homosexuality is as bad as the Bible says it is, they use the sin list or the vice list to say whatever they view as the least offensive or least heinous sin in that list.

They say homosexuality is like that. Right. When Paul in Romans 1 is arguing the opposite. Right. It's due to upside down worship. And that's at the beginning of Romans 1. Right. Least upside down sexuality.

And then they just dive headlong into all manner of sin. And so it's this downward spiral. It is not that, you know, the smallest sin on that list, homosexuality is like that. No, everything on that list is like homosexuality.

It's due to turning creation upside down. Right. The reason why they dive into it, you know. But J .D. Greer and, you know, something that bothers me about the elites, they just say they were misunderstood or whatever, and they'll leave those sermons up to continue to teach thousands of people.

And how can you be misunderstood on that? Like, what if he had said the same thing about racism? Bible whispers about racism. Yeah. And he would immediately take that down. He would never say that because it's not the darling sin of our culture.

Yeah. And so J .D. Greer and then Ed Linton copied his sermons. And so he argued the same thing. And Bart Barber says that same sex attraction is not sin. You know, so evidently you have to be in order to be SBC president, you have to believe that same sex attraction is not sin.

Yeah. It's ridiculous. It is ridiculous,.

I think. And but this is the thing, though, like so. So, Jared, like when people hear J .D. Greer say that the Bible whispers about same sex or homosexuality or sexual sin is what he said. And and all that, like, I feel like, OK, you know, liberals love it.

You know, the people that kind of do the hero worship thing, they love it. But like conservative Christians, like actual conservative Christians that aren't woke, they hear that and they're like, oh, I don't I don't buy that.

Like that that that doesn't sit right. That doesn't make sense. I know the Bible doesn't whisper about this. That's wrong. They can see that as wrong. Right. But when it comes to the same sex attraction thing, whether or not that's actually sin, I feel like the conservatives are a pretty mixed bag, whether or not they would agree.

You know what I mean? So so there's something about that that the people aren't quite understanding. Like we understand the Bible does not whisper about homosexuality. We get that. But on the attraction thing, there's just such a divide.

Like, how is it? It just seems like it should be clear that that's a it's a disordered desire. It's not natural in any way. It's a degradation of the Imago Dei. It's just completely it's a hateful thing to desire, because we I don't know, like I'm trying to, Jared, maybe you thought of this.

Maybe you just don't know. But like, how is it that that it just seems so obvious? Why is that one tripping.

People up? I think they ground sin in the wheel, similar to a local court. You know, man looks upon the outward actions, but God looks on the heart. That's the whole point of the Sermon on the Mount. You know, Jesus is not listing something we can accomplish.

His whole point is that none of you have accomplished this. Now only I have only I am accomplishing this. Only I am pure in heart.

I've had, Jared, I've had, Jared, people that I've talked to, and I'm not going to name them because they're not like public figures. And it's not it's not important. But people that like I would be eye to eye with on so much theology, you know, 90 of it, they're solid.

I've had people that have gone really far with this whole thing about the desires, right? And they would say, look, I don't know how this works. But the Bible says that Jesus was tempted in all things.

So therefore, he must have had this temptation as well, this temptation to homosexuality. I've had people say that to me. And I remember when they said that to me, it blew my mind, like that they would say that, like, that seems so shockingly, obviously terribly, horrendously, you know, evil to say about the Lord.

But I feel like that is that's that's an inevitable sort of like, if you buy into this too much, like, I guess you kind of have to think that. Have you heard that before? I mean, is that just me?

No, that's that's the default argument. People are trying to use Jesus's temptation to justify their own sinful desires. And in Hebrews 4 .15, the whole point of the chapter, whole book of Hebrews is saying that Jesus is better than you.

I mean, the whole...

Imagine that, imagine that. He's better than you. He's better than all the Old Testament high.

Priests. And so the point of Hebrews 4 .15 is not to say you can be like Jesus. It's saying he is truly human and sinless. He's like you in his true humanity. He's really tempted like you, but yet without sin.

So he's not like you. He's better than you. Yeah. That's why you need him to be your mediator. You need him to be your high priest. That's why don't return to the Old Testament high priest. You have a high priest who's eternal, Jesus.

Yeah. Do you so you mentioned, of course, okay, so actually, let's let's go back to the SBC. So J .D. Greer, a lot of people dunked on that, rightfully so. It was really stupid to say. Edla, and even more so because he decided that was so awesome that he stole it.

That boggles my mind, but whatever. Let's go on to somebody else. Who else?

Patrick Schreiner is one that comes to mind. He's a Midwestern. He is a New Testament professor at Midwestern. So this is Tom Schreiner's son. Okay. And he used to be at Western Seminary. When he's at Western Seminary, we went back and forth on a Desiring God article on Facebook over this issue.

And so I knew where he stood, and I was surprised they got hired at Midwestern. And so he actually has an article. He's actually deleted it. It was in 2015. And it was called, let's see, it was called A Primer on Whether Same-Sex Attraction is Sinful.

Okay. And so he deleted that article. But in 2019, he recommended a sermon by John Tyson. You can still find this on his Twitter. And John Tyson's a pastor in New York. And John, so I went and listened to the sermon.

And he assumes that same-sex attraction is ontology. It's just who you are. It gets to the end, and he says, is same-sex attraction sin? He says, no. And he quotes James 1. And then 30 seconds later, he starts talking about hypocrisy and how the church, if they find it, if you find any hypocrisy in your heart, you need to repent from it, resist it, reject it.

I'm like, you don't have to repent of same-sex attraction in your heart, but you do of hypocrisy, because that's really bad. Jesus really hates hypocrisy.

This is an easy way to put this, I think, the problem here. So like, if I admitted to my pastor, look, I've been lusting after women that weren't my wife. I haven't acted on it. I haven't watched any porn, but I just feel it.

I would be told to repent of that, obviously. I would be told that that was not a good thing. You can't get around that. That's what the Sermon on the Mount says. You can't get around that. If I told my pastor that I'm boiling on the inside with jealousy because my neighbor has a nice house, whatever it is, a new car, and I can't afford one, I would be told that that's something to repent of.

That's a sin. That's something that's wrong. That's something that's wrong in my soul, in my heart. So this is not complicated. It's really not complicated, because the thing is, Jared, I think a lot of us, if we think back at, because when I converted, one of the things that I was just given over to was a complete envy of everybody.

I was doing well at work. I lived in New York City. I was doing really well. But even people that weren't doing quite as well as me, if they had success at work, I hated them. It was just palpable. I could feel it.

I don't remember a time not having those feelings prior to that. I just always had them. The fact that I just had them, in my opinion, at the time, that wasn't an excuse for them. I obviously had to get rid of that.

Nobody in their right mind would say, oh, no, it's okay. It's just part of who you are. You just are envious of people. You don't want them to do well. You only want to be the only one doing well. I hated that about myself, Jared.

I really did. And so this is very easy. Homosexuality is not different or special in that regard. It's like that. You have to repent of that, is what you're saying. That's it. It's pretty basic.

Yep. Yeah, there's no difference.

This is causing so much controversy. I just don't get it. It just seems so obvious to me. And look, I don't know about the exact, is it heresy? Is it not? I'm not that trained in that stuff. So whatever.

But it just seems so basic. I just don't understand, Jared. Sorry to interrupt.

You. No, you're right. It is basic. It is basic. It's just sin. People want to be viewed as empathetic. Part of it is they've gotten away from the confessions, gotten away from exegesis, and instead they've started asking people how they feel about their sin.

Yeah. And like just what you said, you said, I just had it. And as far as I know, I've always had it. That's exactly how people who have same sex desires describe them. And because of their memory, it's turned theology on this issue upside down, which makes no sense.

We need to read the Bible. And if we find in there, in the Bible, that desires that are contrary to God or inclinations that are contrary to God are not sin, then so be it. But that is not what the Bible says at all.

We are responsible for everything in us that's contrary to God.

It just seems like the impulse, and this is me guessing, but it's an educated guess, the impulse is that if you take this stand that the desires themselves have to be repented of, and these people are telling you that this is part of who they are ever since they were 12 or whatever, they've always known that you're not going to have an opportunity to minister to those people.

I feel like that's probably where it comes from. Because I don't think a lot of these people feel like they're doing the wrong thing. I'm not saying that they're not doing the wrong thing, but they don't feel like it.

They want to be able to minister. They want to be able to talk to the homosexual community, whatever that's supposed to mean. And so they think this is the way to do it, right? But to me, and Jared, do you think that this, is there any legitimacy to that?

Because it seems to me like you're almost stumbling them a little bit, like you're putting a stumbling block in front of them. You're ear-tickling. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're telling them what.

They want to hear and you're trying to, Jesus wouldn't do that, Paul wouldn't do that, the.

Show me someone in scripture that would do that. We would see it instantly if we did it about, like you said, racism, or lust, or envy, or anything. We would see it. Homosexuality is not special in that way.

It's not special in that way. And I think to your point about Romans, people try to make the opposite point where it's like, yeah. But the point is though, whatever point you're trying to make with that, you know it's not special.