July 24, 2020 Show with Ron McKinney on “One Christian Pastor’s Journey Parenting a Child with Leukemia (& the Sovereignty of God in the Midst of Frightening Trials”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

00:23

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

01:20

This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 24th day of July 2020 and I am so thrilled to have back on the program

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Ron McKinney pastor of Kinsey Drive Baptist Church in Dalton, Georgia.

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Today he is addressing one Christian pastor's journey parenting a child with leukemia and the sovereignty of God in the midst of frightening trials and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor Ron McKinney.

01:58

Thank you Chris I'm pleased to be back with you brother, pleased to be back with you.

02:04

Amen. Well as we normally do to refresh the memory of our listeners or to talk about your church briefly for the first time to those who have never heard you before, tell us about Kinsey Drive Baptist Church.

02:21

Kinsey Drive Baptist Church would be considered

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I suppose as independent but not independent as being a part of a group. We are not a part of the

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Southern Baptist Convention. We are a church that holds to the 1646

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Confession of Faith of the Baptist Association and we believe in what we call the grace of God, the sovereignty of God and what we call the doctrines of grace.

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This church has existed since 1974 and I've been here for 30 years since 1990.

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I moved here from Dallas, Texas as I've said many times

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I went from Big D to Little D to Dalton, Georgia. But Dalton isn't so small in terms of its impact as far as the world is concerned because it is the carpet capital of the world and that means by that there are about 10 billion dollars that is done every year here in this city all over the world.

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90 % of the world's carpet is produced from this small town.

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We have quite a large corporation and it means that there is a lot, seems to be a lot of money that's here, but we have a good hospital system, but we also have high divorce which is one of the things that I'm not pleased about.

04:03

But this church has been here for these past almost 50 years and has had a message of grace and it's been consistent.

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Your friend Gary Scott that you had on just a few days ago, he was pastor here for 12 years before me and he laid a very solid foundation and I've always said

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I just followed in his footsteps and wrote his coattail because my, what an established church it was.

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They loved to hear the scriptures. We do not have entertainment in terms of trying to please people.

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We like to preach the truth concerning the person of Christ and his work on our behalf and that to me is a message that is not as popular today and yet it is the gospel and what we need to preach is the gospel concerning Jesus Christ.

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Amen. Well, if anybody is interested in finding more about Kinsey Drive Baptist Church in Dalton, Georgia, you can go to their website,

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KinseyDriveBaptistChurch .com, KinseyDriveBaptistChurch .com

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and I'm also going to give our listeners our email address in the event that they would like to join us on the air with a question of their own regarding our theme,

05:41

One Christian Pastor's Journey Parenting a Child with Leukemia and the Sovereignty of God in the

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Midst of Frightening Trials. Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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Please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

06:05

So, let us begin with this specific child of yours that had or has,

06:15

I'm not sure what the current status is, but if you could tell us how you found out this child of yours had leukemia.

06:24

Yes, sir. There's quite a story that I have here about my daughter

06:31

Heidi, Alexis McKinney Engel. She was in high school, actually she was transferring from junior high to high school.

06:47

She just finished her eighth grade. Let me give briefly some background so you know where I'm coming from.

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I grew up in my father's church where it was

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Assembly of God, which was Pentecostal. Yes, and by the way, I want to let our listeners know that we have conducted an interview with Ron on he and his father and his family making an exodus out of Pentecostalism into the doctrines of Sovereign Grace.

07:24

So you can look that up. Yes, sir. You can look that up on irontrepanzymeradio .com. Yes, that was

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April 23rd, I believe, April 23rd, but that is so important to this story because I grew up with seeing divine healing.

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I had also attended as a child an Oral Roberts tent meeting where he prayed for the sick.

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I knew Jimmy Swaggard and I knew a lot of other people that were in that particular movement and a lot of the healing evangelists that would go around.

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Now, in 1970 my father and my uncle, the two of them together, came to believe in the doctrines of grace and by virtue of that they left and became, they became

08:23

Baptists, but they were Calvinists. They understood something of the grace of God and of predestination.

08:31

I had gone to Belle Haven College, which is a Presbyterian school.

08:36

I played basketball there. That's how I got there, but while I was there I had, I heard about predestination.

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It was taught in the classroom and Morton Smith was my teacher and when he brought up the subject, which

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I did not believe, I did not understand, I thought of predestination as being something that, you know, there was

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God just picks somebody or makes them into robots or something of that matter, and yet I was drawn to it because he talked about that God had planned all this and we see the unfolding of his plan and that resonated with me and I got a hold of a book by Lorraine Bettner on the

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Reformed doctrine of predestination and I took it home and my father read it and by so doing it more or less led him eventually out of the denomination and we left the

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Assemblies of God. I have some dear friends that were there. I don't have hard feelings or anything,

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I just wish that more of them could have seen the truth that I came to see, but by virtue of that I began to study and I left a large church in Memphis and then went to Reformed Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi.

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I was in the very early classes, I knew all of these professors, some of them came from Belhaven, but I knew these men and I studied there and I got my master's degree there and then

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I began to pastor in a church. Well, eventually

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I was in Dallas, Texas. I was then invited to come and candidate here at Kinsey Drive Baptist Church, this is 1990.

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I'm telling you this because all of this is good background for what really happened, but when we came here we found a church that loved us and we loved them and we still love them.

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We have a loving relationship and it's not just a kind of soft kind of love, it's one in which

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I've lived with these people, I've buried their parents, I've seen the birth of their children,

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I've married their children, I've been with them through sickness and health and we have a bond that you have with your people, that is, those that you pastor, and I love them dearly.

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But in 1996, my daughter was going to the high school here and she went to try out in the summer to be a cheerleader.

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She was 13 years of age and Heidi was athletic, she was very strong, she played softball, she was a terrific softball player, she loved sports and everything, but she had gone for tryouts.

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Well, one morning I was awakened by her and she said,

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Dad, my back is just killing me, it's just hurting me, and she says,

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I can't stand it. Well, that's kind of peculiar for her, in fact, I gave her a couple of,

12:22

I think aspirin or Tylenol and sent her back to bed, but within 30 -40 minutes she came back to me.

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Now, this is early in the morning, and so I began to pray with her and ask

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God to be merciful, but it got so severe that I decided to take her to,

12:43

I guess what you call a dock in the box. So I went to this place and we had a man, a doctor there, he was a young doctor, and he examined her and he came back and he said, her blood shows that it's like 35 ,000, well it should be somewhere between 12 ,000 and 15 ,000 or 16 ,000, that meant that there was some kind of infection.

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Well, I was just surprised, I said, well what can this be? Well, he was so persistent, and he even had us go to Chattanooga to another hospital, and there we went in and they examined her, and they were not sure, but they kept her for a couple of days and she went through a lot of examinations.

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Well, she came home, and about two or three days later, she had this severe attack of pain, and it was so, so harsh.

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Well, it was in the middle of the night, so I go all the way with her to Chattanooga to T .C.

13:56

Thompson Hospital, and there we sat and they took blood, and I sat with her from like one o 'clock in the morning to about three or four, maybe five o 'clock, and then the doctor finally comes, and he says, we've got a problem that we've got to deal with.

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So they had us go and sit down, and we had a hematologist to come and speak to us, he's a blood doctor.

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Well, he and the lady that was with him, her name was

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Charlotte, they came and we sat down, Heidi and I, and this lady, she reveals to us that Heidi has leukemia.

14:51

Now, she wasn't sure, but she felt she was sure, but what we did, we sat there, and of course, we were stunned, that is, my wife and I, we were stunned by it, we didn't know what to think.

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So, I said to the lady, I said, we must pray. So I prayed with him,

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I asked God for mercy, I asked him for strength, I asked him to help me, and I said to the lady,

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I said, I don't want to deal with this just medically, I don't want to deal with this just, you know, as a case of cancer or whatever,

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I said, I want you to understand, this is something spiritual to me. And I got up with my wife, and we walked down the hall to Heidi's room, and neither one of us had said a word, and I held her hand, and I was praying, and I said,

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God, if you, if this is your will, help me to receive it, and accept it, you know, when you think about your children, it's part of your heart, and when your children are in pain, and when they're suffering, when anything happens, even when they're young, it's part of you that is having that pain.

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And I remember going into the room where Heidi was, and I walked around to face her, and Bonnie was with me, and they left us alone, and I said these words to Heidi, I said,

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Heidi, I said, they have found and discovered that you have cancer.

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When I said that word, her face just threw up, and she began to cry.

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And then she said to me these words, of course, Bonnie and I both were weeping as well, because we saw her, and the fear that she had, but she said to me, these were these first words, she said, she said,

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Dad, does this mean God is testing me? I said, absolutely, he's testing you, and he's testing me, and he's testing your mom, and he's testing all of our church family, all of us.

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But she didn't even know what cancer really meant. She said she knew that some people lost their hair, that was kind of her view of it, she didn't know how really difficult it was, what it meant.

17:44

You know, leukemia, it's one of the things that over 60, more people die of leukemia than heart attacks or anything else.

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Wow. People over 60. That was something that was stunning to me.

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And of course, we're talking about the blood, and we're talking about the fact that you have these white cells that do not mature, and they just flood the marrow.

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And so, at that point, we were just, you know,

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I was so stunned and shocked. You know, this is happening to me, it's not somebody else.

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And I have dealt with people in the past with cancer and all kinds of illnesses, and I have children who've been sick, but this was me.

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And I was thinking, oh God, you know, you've chosen me for this.

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I remember calling my father, who's a pastor, and I said to Dad, I said,

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Dad, I said, Heidi's got cancer. She's got leukemia. I said,

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I can't even hardly believe that I'm saying this. I feel like I'm outside of my body, you know, and I'm looking down on this.

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It just seems so unreal. Needless to say, it caused us to gather together as a family.

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I have two other daughters, one older, one younger, and then

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I have a son who's just a little older than Heidi, my four children.

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And, of course, we got together, and then, of course, I called together the people of the church.

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One of the things that I want you to see today is the blessing of having a church family.

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I'm telling you, those dear people were so gracious and kind to us.

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They did so much for us. They cared for us. Well, a few days later, we flew.

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They asked us to fly to St. Jude Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee.

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I remember in 1962 when Danny Thomas first started the

20:20

St. Jude Hospital, and he was

20:26

I sat there as a young teenager. Well, it looks like Ron got accidentally disconnected.

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We hope that he will call us back. We're going to go to our first commercial break a little bit prematurely, and hopefully he will call us back very soon.

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If you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com. chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

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Thank you. Welcome back. This is Chris Armisen, your host of Iron Shoppin's Iron Radio.

30:34

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the entirety of the program is

30:41

Pastor Ron McKinney, Dr. Ron McKinney, who is the pastor of Kinsey Drive Baptist Church in Dalton, Georgia.

30:50

And today we are addressing the theme, The Journey, or One Pastor's Journey, Parenting a

30:57

Child with Leukemia and the Sovereignty of God Amidst Frightening Trials.

31:04

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is ChrisArmisen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com

31:13

And as always, give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

31:20

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.

31:25

And you got disconnected, Dr. McKinney, just about when you were talking about how,

31:32

I believe it was 1962, you remember seeing a commercial, I believe, for Danny Thomas.

31:39

Yes, that was Danny Thomas, who was the man who started the hospital at St.

31:48

Jude. I was a teenager and I sat there and I watched it and I was very moved by it and had no idea that someday that I would be there, and particularly with my own child.

32:05

But when we got there, we left Chattanooga and flew to Memphis to go to St.

32:14

Jude. We were told, put a few things together, you'd be there for maybe three weeks.

32:22

That was not the case. I mean, we kind of, we were so disoriented.

32:30

I had children in school. My wife is a school teacher. And so, but we both went over there together and we sat down and I was watching the television and on the television was

32:46

Rod Carew, the great baseball player for the Twins and later the

32:52

Los Angeles Angels. He won the Most Valuable Player in 1977.

32:58

And he was on television and what he was doing, this 1996, April the 17th, he was appealing for donors for bone marrow.

33:10

And his daughter, Michelle Carew, had non -lympho, let's see, it is leukemia.

33:20

And she later died from complications after attempts to a new procedure.

33:28

But I was watching that and I was sitting there and of course the thought that my child is put into this position.

33:37

Well, we met with the doctor. We had the very finest doctor, I think, in the world.

33:44

Ching Hung Pui. He's a Chinese doctor at St. Jude. He sets the world's protocol for leukemia, childhood leukemia especially.

33:57

And he sat there and he talked to us for two hours and he goes through the procedure of what's going to happen over the next several years.

34:10

Not months or weeks, but years. And I'm trying to take notes and I stop after about 15 or 20 minutes because I couldn't keep up with it.

34:21

It was hard to understand anyway. But what he was saying is that this is going to be a process.

34:29

And in this, he said to me, or to us, he said, you just had bad luck.

34:36

And I corrected him. I said, no, sir. I said, God is in control of this.

34:44

Well, I said that at that moment knowing that I was helpless.

34:51

There wasn't anything I could do. And I felt very much there was not much he could do.

34:57

But he endeavored to set a protocol for her and she went through this.

35:04

From the very beginning, she took all kinds of chemo. She had 43 different kinds of chemo within the first month.

35:16

And every day, there was something new. It was something that they would do or they did bone marrow aspirations.

35:28

She's had about 115 or 120 bone marrow aspirations.

35:33

She's had 189 spinal taps. I mean, the girl has been through so much.

35:43

So what they were doing is they were instructing us as to what we were going to have to do as the family.

35:49

Well, my wife had to go back home. And I stayed with her. And I went through all of these various things.

35:58

And I was taught how to flush her port and how to take care of her.

36:05

We were involved every moment of every day with her health.

36:12

And not only are we dealing here with this disease, but we're dealing with the emotions of my child and of everyone else that's around.

36:27

She understood because I had taught my children that you don't expect everything to be wonderful.

36:37

Life has its difficulties. I tell them that they're trials, that they're tests that you go through, that God is doing something.

36:50

He's working. And you're not going to always have it just wonderful. And so that's why

36:57

Heidi responded and said, Is God testing me? Well, we got there, and I had nothing.

37:05

I didn't have a car. I didn't hardly know where I was. And I wandered around, and a man came up to me after the second day that I was there and met me in the lobby.

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And St. Jude Hospital has literally hundreds and hundreds of people in that hospital.

37:24

They're going everywhere, and the children have their poles with their chemo.

37:30

They're going down the hall, and it's just a crowded place. Well, this man comes up to me and says,

37:36

Are you Ron McKinney? And I said, Yes, sir, I am. He says, Well, I have a car for you.

37:43

He said, I can't tell you who it's from because they just wanted to do it anonymous.

37:49

And here's a car for you while you're here. I thought to myself,

37:55

I said, God, you provided for us a car. And then the first person that we met when we got there was someone from Chattanooga.

38:07

And we got to know this lady very well, and she showed us around to show the ropes and where to go, and we were going to stay in the

38:16

Ronald McDonald house and that sort of thing. Now, here we go with taking care of your child along with every day having something done, some chemo that's given, or maybe it's a steroid or something of that nature, or there's a procedure.

38:38

And it came to the time, after about six or eight weeks, they were going to take out her line.

38:44

She had a line in her arm, and they pulled it out, and she went into shock, what they call septic shock.

38:56

You've probably heard of that. Her blood pressure dropped to 48 over 27.

39:04

I mean, it was, and they were going code blue. There were about 10 people that were in the room working on her all at the same time.

39:16

And I was there, and finally somebody said, you need to go out, Mr. McKinney. And I stepped out, and one of the nurses came out to me.

39:25

She said, Mr. McKinney, she said, are you all right? Well, I was seeing all this going on, and I thought my daughter was dying.

39:34

I mean, she was at the point of almost dying, and she said to me, she said, what's going on with you?

39:47

And I was weeping, and I told her, I said, listen. I said,

39:53

I'm praying to my Heavenly Father. I'm praying to the one that I know loves me, loves my daughter, and I'm praying that God will be merciful.

40:07

And I said to her, I said, I said to God, if you save her life,

40:13

I will serve you and love you and live for you. But if you take her life,

40:20

I will serve you and love you and live for you and give you all the glory.

40:29

Praise God. Praise God. She didn't know what to do, and the doctor that was standing there, he was just kind of stunned.

40:38

But I tell you what, the presence of God was so real at that moment,

40:44

Chris. I knew that God was standing there with me. The Spirit of God was with me, and I felt strength, and I was able to stand there.

40:56

And then she was taken to the ICU, and still things were not settled as far as this shock is concerned.

41:07

And I went up to the ICU, and there was a nurse in there named Michelle. And she was a beautiful lady, and she had been there for 27 years.

41:20

And she takes all of the difficult cases, and she brings these children as far as she can.

41:30

I told her I had to go up there. I was there for three and a half, four days, because Heidi, they had to check her blood pressure every 20 minutes or so.

41:40

And I would sit there, and I'd watch that monitor every day for three or four days, every 20 minutes, to see if it was going to be regulated or not.

41:51

They were giving her all kinds of doping. I don't even remember the drug they were giving her, but just helping her to get settled down.

42:03

And when we went in there, it was amazing how they took her body, and they just began to put needles in there and get her to a place where they could work on her.

42:16

But those three days of just sitting there, waiting, and how difficult it was.

42:22

And this nurse, so professionally and so gracefully cared for her.

42:32

And I told her one day, she worked like 22 hours one day. I said, Michelle, how do you do this?

42:38

She says, oh, Mr. McCain, I've done this for 27 years, and my hope is when everyone comes in here that God's going to do something for them.

42:49

She was a Christian, and she trusted God. That's the only way she could do that kind of work.

42:57

Because we had lost, during the time that we were there for the next several years, three to four years, we saw literally 100, 120 kids that we knew that died.

43:11

I mean, it's just not a given that you're going to live if you're going to be treated. Well, Heidi had

43:19

ALL with what they call PH positive.

43:26

It's known as the Philadelphia chromosomes. And it's difficult to treat with...

43:39

I'm sorry. Forgive me. I'm a little bit shaky about it. It's something that is difficult to be treated.

43:53

They usually give a transform, the bone marrow transplant.

44:03

That's what normally is done. They decided not to. And so she goes through the next several years getting chemo up and down.

44:16

She had times that she almost died when they were giving her the chemo.

44:24

Then she would take methotrexate, which is a difficult...

44:30

They gave her high doses of that, make her so sick that she would be for almost two weeks with sores in her mouth and throughout her throat and stomach and her rectum.

44:43

It was covered in blood. They had to knock her out for two weeks so she could heal.

44:53

Through all this, I had one thing that was in mind.

44:59

God, you love me, and you're taking care of me. I'd like to read something to you, if I may.

45:08

Of course. This is something... What happened is that she came through the treatment in three years, and she was doing well, but she was in a wheelchair, and she was on crutches in a wheelchair.

45:28

What had happened was she had what is called the bone in her hips had died, avascular necrosis, it's called, and there was really nothing that could be done except to have a hip replacement.

45:50

Well, she was doing well until 2007, and she got married in 2007, and two months later at her reception, she began to have great pain in her legs, and we took her to the local hospital.

46:14

She got a shot of morphine, and then I drove her all the way to Memphis, which is about seven or eight hours, and got there that morning and took her in and discovered that she had relapsed.

46:31

Let me read this to you, if I may. I'm writing this from St. Jude Children's Hospital in Memphis where 11 years ago at the age of 13,

46:41

Heidi Alexis McKinney, our third child, was diagnosed with acute lymphocytic leukemia with PH positive, also known as the chromosome,

46:52

Philadelphia chromosome. We came back for hip replacement surgery, but instead her blood work revealed that the leukemia had returned.

47:03

She had relapsed. She had been suffering from bone pain for several weeks prior, and we thought it was related to the avascular necrosis in her hips.

47:16

On Tuesday, July 17th, I took her to the ER in Dalton where she got a shot of morphine, and then we immediately drove to Memphis.

47:26

The next day we learned that the Lord saw fit to have a leukemia return.

47:33

The following day she had a bone marrow aspiration and spinal tap to inject chemo in the spine.

47:40

Thank the Lord the spine was clear. The next day the doctor operated and inserted a double lumen hickman line.

47:49

The following day was the first day of chemotherapy. There will be 43 days of induction.

47:58

If the Lord sees fit to place her in remission, then she will be a candidate for bone marrow transplant.

48:06

All of these siblings, Heather, my oldest child, Haddon, the second, and the youngest,

48:14

Hope, are all perfect matches. I'll tell you, that's an unusual thing.

48:20

They are able to choose the best match. This was not true 11 years ago. She has been very sick and experiencing side effects already from the chemo and the prednisone.

48:33

I will not labor you with all the details, but simply say she is extremely weak and sick.

48:41

She is a high -risk patient because of the Philadelphia chromosome. All said and done, we do not trust in statistics of man, but in a

48:53

God who rules and reigns from on high and does as he pleases with the inhabitants of earth.

49:02

By the grace of God, we plan to approach this treatment with the same trust we had before.

49:09

We do not feel that God has failed us, nor do we want to question his wisdom and will.

49:18

I've preached about the sovereignty of God and God's eternal decree.

49:26

Now I want to practice and live it. My greatest comfort is that God has designed and purposed all that has and will happen.

49:40

I am not a fatalist. I believe in a God that works all things after the counsel of his will and for his own good pleasure.

49:50

Nothing is left to chance or luck or any other fate. God, who is wise, does all things according to his purpose, his eternal purpose according to the counsel of his will, whereby for his own glory he hath ordained whatsoever comes to pass.

50:10

My finite mind cannot fully comprehend the divine decree of God.

50:17

The very nature of God teaches us that his decree is all comprehensive and immutable.

50:25

There is no other way it could be. God isn't making things up as he goes along because he knows the beginning and the end.

50:36

The decree of God is a simultaneous act that embraces every minute detail.

50:47

If this is not true, then we do not have a God. There is in God a necessary knowledge including all possible causes and results.

51:00

Now think about this. If God knows all possibilities and results and he chooses out of all the possibilities by an act of his perfect will to bring it to realization, then it must be right and perfect.

51:18

God knew all about the leukemia cells in Heidi. He could have stopped them but chose by his wise counsel to use them in her life to glorify himself and work for her eternal good.

51:34

God did not have to deliberate or pause when he chose. If God's short -sighted, he knows what is best.

51:43

God says this is the best way. Do I question God? Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God.

51:55

How unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out for who has known the mind of the

52:03

Lord or who has been his counselor or who has first given to him and it shall be recompensed unto him again.

52:13

For of him and through him and to him are all things to whom be glory forever.

52:18

Amen. God loves Heidi. He loves me. And I know that it is true.

52:26

He suffered and died for me that I might have eternal life. He is the

52:31

God of all wisdom and truth. I have run to Christ to find comfort.

52:39

I embraced him alone with a disease called cancer. When we believe in a sovereign

52:45

God we have at all times and in all circumstances reasons for hope and comfort.

52:54

Divine providence is God's rule, government, dominion over and disposition of all things for the good of his elect and the glory of his great name.

53:08

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God to them who are called according to his purpose.

53:20

Brother, Amen. We have to go to our middle break right now.

53:26

That was really moving and I am praising God for every word you said. But we have to go to our middle break now.

53:32

Thank you, brother. If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

53:41

chrisarnson at gmail .com Please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA.

53:48

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here. Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach and debate at numerous venues, some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope Reform Baptist Church now located at their new beautiful facilities in Coram, Long Island, New York.

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Pastor Christopher McDowell. For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net

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that's hopereformedli .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711

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Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Coram, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio depends upon the financial support of fine Christian organizations to remain on the air, like the

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Historical Bible Society. The Historical Bible Society maintains a collection of Christian books, manuscripts and Bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years.

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The mission of HBS is the preservation and public display of Christian books and manuscripts of ancient scripture, dissemination of scripture, to provide tools equipping believers and Christian apologetics with evidence for the

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Since 2004, HBS has toured schools and churches throughout the Northeast United States, reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the

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today. Thank you, Daniel P. Buttafuoco, attorney at law, for your faithful support of Iron Shrub and Zion Radio.

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Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

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Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

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We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

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Call Lindbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

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Or visit LindbrookBaptist .org. That's LindbrookBaptist .org. Iron Sharp and Zion welcome

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01:00:02

That's liyfc .org. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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01:02:12

This is Pastor Bill Sousa of Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially. Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

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Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes or you are visiting this area or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

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Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org That's gracechurchatfranklin .org

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Sovereign Lord, God, Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

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Was your business shut down during the COVID -19 pandemic, depriving you of earning any money, causing you to default on your rent, as you try to survive without income?

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John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

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Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

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Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised

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Chris up for just such a time. And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

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I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

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I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

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In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the

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Lord like this, I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well.

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He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what

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God has designed and he has erupted into praise. In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust

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God's design. And once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.

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When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this illness which can be very serious.

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Such is the beauty of his design. Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great

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God like the psalmist did. May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.

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Thank you. As far back as the 1980s is

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Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey. Pastored by Alan Dunn.

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Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.

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They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

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God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

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01:11:13

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know

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01:15:01

Before we return to our discussion with Dr. Ron McKinney on parenting a child with leukemia, we have some very important announcements to make.

01:15:14

First of all, I hope as many of you as possible join me Friday and Saturday, August 28th and 29th at High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania.

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I will be manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio there for their Basics of Biblical Counseling conference.

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It's going to start Friday night on August 28th and continue all day Saturday August 29th until 5pm.

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The speaker is Dale Johnson, the Executive Director of ACBC, which stands for the

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Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. And Dale Johnson will be discussing among other things the need for Biblical Counseling, the definition and goal of Biblical Counseling, progressive sanctification, qualifications of a

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Biblical Counselor, secular and integration theories, what makes Biblical Counseling Biblical, and a

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Q &A session with the audience. If you would like to join me there, please register at BiblicalCounseling .com

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forward slash Scranton -PA -training And you can also find out more about the venue,

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High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania at HighPointBaptist .Church I hope to see you there

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August 28th and 29th, Friday and Saturday at the Basics of Biblical Counseling conference at High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania And folks, if you love this show and you don't want us to disappear from the airwaves, please go to IronTripandZionRadio .com

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01:19:01

and put advertising in the subject line. Also, if you are not a member of a local

01:19:06

Bible -believing church I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet earth and I may be able

01:19:12

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01:19:40

and put I need a church in the subject line. And by the way, that's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest today,

01:19:49

Dr. Ron McKinney and that's chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:19:56

we are discussing a very important topic and also a very moving topic on one pastor's journey parenting a child with leukemia and the sovereignty of God in the midst of frightening trials.

01:20:15

And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:20:21

and give us your first name, city, and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:20:31

Well, if you could pick up where you left off Ron, after you

01:20:36

Yes, sir. After you wrote that very powerful letter that you wrote actually from St.

01:20:44

Jude Hospital, if I recall. Yes. So continue where you left off. Yes. Well, what

01:20:51

I want to do is I'm going to pick up about the bone marrow transplant that she had in 2007 and I'm just simply going to tell you that we went through another about a year of first of all getting her back into remission and one of the blessings was that 11 years earlier

01:21:18

Gleevec was one of the chemists that was used to put her back into remission they didn't have that 11 years ago.

01:21:28

I think of God's grace in that she relapsed 11 years later when this drug is available and has it effect upon putting her back into remission.

01:21:40

Well, she had to have the bone marrow transplant so they wanted to get one of the siblings in order to do a transplant to have someone compatible is the most important thing.

01:21:56

There are 10 standards that they use in terms of matching someone with the patient.

01:22:06

It usually is like 20 % of those siblings will match not always but that's what they hope for which means one in five.

01:22:19

We had an unusual situation that all three of our children were perfect matches in all 10 levels which

01:22:29

I gave praise to God for because it was such an amazing thing. The doctors were surprised.

01:22:36

But we chose to have her youngest sister Hope who was then 18 and a student at Covenant College and she was the donor and it was quite a remarkable thing to go through the process and what happens is once they do the transplant it takes quite a while for everything to be kind of worked out and there's so many things that can go wrong.

01:23:10

Graft versus Host which most of you have heard of and we saw that happen to some of our friends that were there at St.

01:23:22

Jude and several of them did not make it but Heidi did very well and she was able to leave after about seven months and now here's the benefit of all of this.

01:23:37

This is what is so glorious to me is my daughter began telling everyone how much she loved

01:23:48

Jesus and how to praise God in the midst of suffering. She became an ambassador for Christ.

01:23:58

She said to everyone she met, she said I thank God for cancer.

01:24:06

I thank God for cancer. She said without it I would not have loved

01:24:11

Jesus the way that I do. He has become more precious to me because of this.

01:24:19

It arrested her and got her to seek and to praise

01:24:24

God. Well now she was along with having trouble with her hips.

01:24:32

I told you she was in a wheelchair. Well she had to have surgery. There's several things

01:24:38

I could tell but I won't go into detail but she ended up having six surgeries on her hip.

01:24:46

She finally got a surgery for hip replacement. They put her in and I'm amazed at her strength because God gave her strength.

01:24:57

She got up the first day after she had hip replacement and she walked which is kind of amazing to me but she did.

01:25:07

She has been able to do almost anything she wants to do and has lived

01:25:14

I feel a normal life if you can use the word normal.

01:25:20

She's had to be careful of some things but she has taught school. She's taught literally thousands of students art.

01:25:30

She has been an art teacher where she goes into the school and she'll teach different levels of classes.

01:25:37

She's a professional artist. She sold some of her work for five, six thousand dollars.

01:25:44

She's just done very well. God has just blessed her but she's given her testimony.

01:25:51

She's gone to Covenant College and given her testimony. She graduated from Covenant and I mean

01:25:58

God has just done a miraculous thing in terms of just sparing her life.

01:26:05

Now, do I give praise to God? You better believe it. It's not a day

01:26:11

I don't think that goes by that I'm not giving him thanks for what he did for Heidi.

01:26:18

I just saw her today. She had a check up that she was having to get and I just was thanking

01:26:24

God in my heart for how he has been so gracious to her. She and her husband adopted a daughter who's now six years old and they're doing well and I'm so grateful to the

01:26:39

Lord. They served the Lord of the church. He, Jeff, her husband is involved with the sound system in the church and some of the technical things and then

01:26:54

Heidi is involved with others as well. Chris, if I may,

01:27:00

I'd like to give something that has meant something to me in this matter of suffering.

01:27:08

Suffering is something that I think, you know, God says he's the God of all comfort and when we go through a trial and all of us have them.

01:27:19

I've had open heart surgery within the last year and God brought me through that and I just praise him.

01:27:30

It was something that, one of the blessings was when I was getting ready to go into surgery,

01:27:36

I had such a confidence in the Lord. I was able to just say, Lord, if you take me,

01:27:43

I'm happy. If you don't, I'll be happy. I mean, I was just, I was rejoicing in the goodness of the

01:27:49

Lord that it was in his hands and the Lord brought me through that. John Piper wrote this a number of years ago.

01:27:58

Some people will probably recognize it, but he wrote this of don't waste your cancer.

01:28:06

You know, if somebody has cancer, it usually brings you to a place of just despair.

01:28:13

Now, he says, don't waste your cancer. And the first thing that he says about this, he says, you will waste your cancer if you do not believe it is designed for you by God.

01:28:31

God gives cancer in use in the

01:28:36

Christian's life to a believer when we receive something from God that's a frowning providence as the

01:28:46

Puritan used to say. What it is, is that God is showing his love for us.

01:28:54

It is that God loves us and he's drawing us away from the world and he's drawing us to himself.

01:29:03

You call upon God when you're in need. You look to him and you're not interested in the things of this world.

01:29:14

Those temporal things have less interest. When you get sick or you have trouble or you're having a test or a trial,

01:29:23

Jesus is working in such a way to bring us more into the likeness of himself, more like Christ.

01:29:32

And as I look back at the trials of my life, I say oh praise God. Those were given for my good and to his glory.

01:29:45

Now the second thing that he says here, you will waste your cancer if you believe it is a curse and not a gift.

01:29:56

I remember one of the things talking to Heidi about we decided we made a pact together, she and I.

01:30:05

I said when we talk about cancer, we're going to embrace it.

01:30:11

In other words, this is something that God's brought because he says it's good for us.

01:30:17

It's for our good and to his glory. I like what

01:30:23

Tim Keller says when he says for you to question God's doing and his work is to say he can't get it right.

01:30:34

In other words, when we fret and we're bitter towards God, we're saying

01:30:40

God you got it wrong. No. We understand that this is used.

01:30:47

This is a place, when we're here on this earth, God is molding us.

01:30:53

He's made us. We haven't arrived. He's trying to make us more like his son.

01:31:00

Now, the third thing that he says, you will waste your cancer if you seek comfort from your odds other than from God.

01:31:11

In other words, you take all the statistics. Listen, when I went to St.

01:31:17

Jude, I got all of their statistics. They told me everything and I said, I'm not believing in that.

01:31:23

I believe in God. Now, you want to know a little something about it, but that's not what you're depending on.

01:31:30

I don't depend on statistics. Does God heal? Yes. But more than not,

01:31:37

I see that he uses those illnesses and those tragedies for the purpose of making us more

01:31:45

Christ -like. Number four, he says, you will waste your cancer if you refuse to think about death.

01:31:54

You know, I think it's so true that people who come to funerals, I have a lot of funerals for people that are not members of my church.

01:32:03

I was on television for 29 years and because of that, I had a lot of people say, well, get the preacher that's on TV.

01:32:13

Funeral homes would call me and I would go in and I would preach the funeral. I preached the gospel.

01:32:19

I didn't know that's the only thing to do. But when I would go in there, they saw everything as being so tragic.

01:32:29

And if they were not believers, certainly it was a tragedy. But God has a purpose in death and it's to show us how temporary life really is.

01:32:41

It's a vapor. It's only here for a moment and then it's gone. People hold to this life.

01:32:49

They squeeze it and they want to get all the can out of it. They live their life for the weekend to go boating or to see a game or whatever.

01:33:02

God has taken away all of the things of entertainment for the world right now.

01:33:09

Is he doing that on purpose? Yes. This COVID -19 is there because God has allowed it.

01:33:21

He's allowed it in order that it might cause people to cry out to the living God and know who he is.

01:33:29

That he lives and reigns over all things. He works all things well according to his will.

01:33:37

And then number five, he says, you will waste your cancer if you think that beating cancer means staying alive rather than cherishing

01:33:45

Christ. What does he mean by that? It doesn't matter. If you live, if somebody lives through cancer and they make it but they don't love

01:33:56

Jesus more than they did before or didn't know him, if they don't love Jesus, it's not worth anything that they're healed, that they're better.

01:34:07

Listen, the only thing in this world is Christ and him crucified. Jesus died as a substitute in the place of sinners.

01:34:18

Everyone who comes to him and calls upon his name, that is, they believe in him and his work.

01:34:27

We don't give the gospel in terms of something cheap, no.

01:34:33

It is something where God has done a work on our behalf and he's redeemed us.

01:34:38

Let me give you another one, Chris, if I may. He will waste your cancer if you let it drive you into solitude instead of deepen your relationship with real, manifest affection.

01:34:53

In other words, sometimes people when they hear they've got cancer, they withdraw. And they don't want to see anybody.

01:35:01

I have a man right now that's in the hospital and he has cancer of the throat. It's inoperable.

01:35:10

He, more than life, stage four. And he doesn't want to see his family.

01:35:15

He doesn't want to have anyone near him. You know, my cry is, oh my, more than anything right now but you need to hear the words of Christ that he is a savior of sinners, of lost men that he calls unto himself.

01:35:35

Number eight, you will waste your cancer if you grieve as those who have no hope.

01:35:43

You know, I think that's something that happens often with people. They just, they grieve as if they have no hope.

01:35:52

Well, they have hope in Christ. Even in healing. You know, I will say this because my background was the healing movement.

01:36:03

I saw a lot of this. My dad wasn't involved in it but there were those that I know that came and did certain things with healing.

01:36:14

They would put their hands on people. I saw a film the other night, the American gospel.

01:36:20

Have you seen that, Chris? It's excellent. Yes. Excellent. Yeah. But what he said was, he said, if you can heal by laying your hands on people and praying over them, why don't you go to the hospice?

01:36:34

You know? And those healers, they always have them in the line.

01:36:40

They protect. My friend, that is, that's a false kind of gospel.

01:36:47

God comes and he can heal. It's like the leper. He said to Christ, he said,

01:36:54

I know that you are able if you are willing. So when we pray, we pray for healing.

01:37:02

I pray for healing for people. And I pray, God, your will be done.

01:37:08

I know you're able. If you're willing, you can heal them. So to kind of put yourself, you know, in a state of not wanting to be around anyone.

01:37:19

No, no. Call people in, particularly those that are Christians. Now let me give you one more.

01:37:27

You will waste your cancer if you treat them as casually as before.

01:37:35

Wow. In other words, when I'm suffering, I can call on the name of Jesus.

01:37:46

And I ask him to cleanse me of all my sins. Well, looks like it happened again, folks.

01:37:54

Right in a really bad time. He was really in a momentum there, but hopefully he will be calling back soon.

01:38:02

We're going to go to our final break. It's going to be much briefer than the last breaks. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

01:38:10

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work of our

01:47:20

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course the end for which we strive is the glory of God.

01:47:26

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our

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Sovereign Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and always.

01:48:11

Welcome back. If you have a question for Dr. Ron McKinney, send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:48:19

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:48:28

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. And I think we lost you,

01:48:34

Ron, when you were in the middle of quoting John Piper on you waste your cancer if you do not confess your sin or something to that nature.

01:48:44

Oh, yes. Well, I'll just conclude on that note that it should cause us to look at our lives in terms of how we live them, that we're dealing with our sin, people who will, you know, allow their sin to kind of just continue.

01:49:09

They're not dealing with it, but if you get cancer or if you get something else or you're sick or whatever, it causes you to think about your soul.

01:49:22

And we need to be more attentive to the soul. One of the things that I think people just neglect is that they don't think about eternity.

01:49:35

Their thoughts are not about the next world. I think about it now more than I have, but it has always been something that I feel is needful, that we need to think about that threshold because God is not going to treat you kindly and just let you go by.

01:49:58

You must confess Christ with your lips. You must know Him and serve

01:50:04

Him and love Him in order to be with Him in eternity.

01:50:10

I tell you what, brother, this ministry that you have is one that I think is of great importance because it's reaching people.

01:50:20

There are people that will stumble upon your program, and hopefully that they will hear the gospel.

01:50:26

I know that's your desire and that God, through His word, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word, and that God will grant them faith that they might believe and trust in Him.

01:50:40

I didn't finish on my friend Larry Martin, but I just want to tell you, he was someone who had colon cancer, and that last 10 months that he lived,

01:50:53

I spent a lot of time with him, and I taped him on a program on television, and he talked about preparing himself for eternity.

01:51:03

He had joy in his heart, even knowing that he was dying up until the very end, and I saw the grace of God that was expressed by he and his family and how we were able to worship the

01:51:20

Lord in his death. I miss him, but God knows what is best, and that we trust

01:51:29

Him. I love the fact that as a believer we can trust Him with our very lives.

01:51:36

Brother, I thank you for this opportunity. Well, you're not over yet. We do have some more time here.

01:51:42

We have a couple of listeners who have questions.

01:51:50

We have Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who says, I know that we must be very careful not to broad brush

01:51:59

Pentecostals as all being members of the Word of Faith heresy, but having said that,

01:52:05

I know that some of the heresies of the Word of Faith movement unfortunately do exist outside those circles amongst

01:52:13

Charismatics and Pentecostals, even the ones that are more biblically sound, and one of those that I'm thinking of is that very often

01:52:21

I have heard Charismatics and Pentecostals discuss how they have been harmed mentally and spiritually by Pentecostal churches who say that the reason they are not healed is because they do not have strong enough faith.

01:52:39

Has anyone in those circles accused you and your family of having this come down upon your daughter because of your abandonment of the

01:52:51

Charismatic or Pentecostal movement? I sure have. I have had that happen.

01:52:58

I had some mail that I received back when she was first sick that, you know, we must have faith.

01:53:06

In fact, they invited us to go to a Benny Hinn meeting to have her prayed over in Memphis when he was there.

01:53:14

But I will say this. I do not believe in that faith kind of healing that you lack faith.

01:53:23

I'll tell you why. It's not only biblical, but it's not even practical. I had a lady in the church that I knew who was a diabetic.

01:53:32

She's prayed for. She said, I won't take my insulin anymore. And after three weeks, she was in the hospital, and she died.

01:53:40

She was believing that she was going to be healed, but she died.

01:53:46

You know, bad theology can be deadly. You must know the

01:53:53

Lord, and you must trust Him, and He will give you what is best for you to His glory and praise.

01:54:02

Well, thank you so much, Susan Margaret, for the excellent question. Yes, yes, yes, very good.

01:54:09

And we also have, let's see here. We have,

01:54:16

I was just looking at it, and it disappeared. Oh, Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York.

01:54:24

And Ronald says, How do you best manage to not lose faith in God when you are in the midst of having a serious trial and you are not only worried about an outcome that you are not hoping for, like death, but at the same time you are being attacked by your own family members?

01:54:56

I'm assuming the person perhaps is talking about attack for their faith, for your faith.

01:55:03

Yes, yes. And often those within your own household, your family, are the ones that are most difficult to deal with in terms of, if you have faith and believe that Christ, you know, what

01:55:19

He's doing is for your good and for His glory, and you don't expect

01:55:28

God to do something other than what His will is, sometimes they are going to persecute you.

01:55:35

There's going to be persecution often to those that hold to God is in control.

01:55:41

He's working all of this. He's doing all of this. But you know, I think if your faith is in the person of Christ, He will give you the grace to deal with that and you can be gracious in the midst of that.

01:55:55

You don't have to become combative or argumentative. You can say, you know, I just believe that God is in control of this situation and I trust

01:56:06

Him. Amen. Amen. And I'd like you now to have about four minutes to summarize what you most want etched on the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air today.

01:56:25

Well, my most important thing is that we're to glorify Christ and love

01:56:31

Him and that Christ is the center and circumference. Everything centers in Christ.

01:56:39

All of our worship, all of our prayer, all that we do is to glorify

01:56:45

His name. If I can do anything with people in terms of helping them,

01:56:52

I just point them to Christ, seek Him with all your heart, call upon His name.

01:56:58

He is the Savior of men. And that you can have that assurance of knowing that you will be with Him.

01:57:08

And heaven is not a place of gold and all that. Heaven is a place where we see the face of Jesus, who is our

01:57:17

Redeemer and our Lord and our Master and our Savior. So Christ is everything to me.

01:57:24

It must be. We must seek Christ in everything for His glory and honor.

01:57:32

Amen. Amen. Amen. Well, you know, it has been such a joy interviewing you again,

01:57:39

Ron. And I look forward to many more interviews with you. It was such a moving experience hearing how moved you still are these many years later over what occurred in your life.

01:57:53

And it just shows even more vividly how much you love the

01:57:59

Lord Jesus, how much you love your family, and especially in this case your daughter, but how much you trust in the sovereignty of God and His will, even in the midst of something as terrifying as this circumstance.

01:58:17

I just want to make sure that our listeners have all of the information that they need to attend the church, the

01:58:30

Kinsey Drive Baptist Church in Dalton, Georgia. It is KinseyDriveBaptistChurch .com,

01:58:35

KinseyDriveBaptistChurch .com. And I hope that if you are visiting the

01:58:42

Dalton, Georgia area, or even if you already live there, and if you don't already have a solidly biblical church home of your own,

01:58:50

I hope that you visit them for worship and even join them in membership.

01:58:56

That's KinseyDriveBaptistChurch .com, and Kinsey is K -I -N -S -E -Y,

01:59:01

DriveBaptistChurch .com. I want to remind our listeners to join me in Larksville, Pennsylvania, on Friday and Saturday, August 28th and 29th, at the

01:59:17

Biblical Counseling Conference at High Point Baptist Church.

01:59:24

And for more details, you can go to HighPointBaptist .Church, HighPointBaptist .Church.

01:59:30

I hope everybody listening has a safe and happy and healthy and God -glorifying weekend and Lord's Day.

01:59:39

And I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.