How Long Can I Mourn the Loss of a Loved One?

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Welcome to Bible bash for we aim to equip the Saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions.

You're not allowed to ask where your host Harrison Kerrigan pastor Tim Mullett and today will answer the age -old question

How long can I mourn the loss of a loved one.

And as we kick this episode off Tim What Bible verse do you have for us?

Yeah.

Ecclesiastes 3 4 says there's a time to weep and a time to laugh a time to mourn

and a time to dance.

So there you go.

Okay, so is that it so based on a verse like that is what is your understanding then to

the you know?

When when asking the question, how long can I mourn the loss of a loved one?

Well, I think at the very least like if you were to read a verse like that.

Then you should come away from a verse like that.

Thinking there was a time to weep a time to laugh a time to mourn and a time to dance.

Like you should come away thinking that at least the idea like the concept of there being some definable

time.

That to where it's appropriate to mourn and to weep.

Exist, you know whether or not there's like large measure agreement on how long that time actually is.

It does seem like that's a very clear passage which says that there is such a thing as a time to mourn in general,

right?

And then there's a time so there's a time to weep, but there's a time to laugh, right?

There's a time to mourn there's a time to dance meaning.

Like you should be able to conclude at least from that that the idea of just perpetual indefinite.

Mourning.

Is not really a biblical idea in general.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're definitely not gonna you're not gonna.

People aren't typically mourning and dancing at the same time, right, right.

Overlapping necessarily.

Yeah, so, you know like there's a.

If you were to read a little bit earlier Ecclesiastes 3 1 says for everything There's a season and a time

for every matter under heaven, right?

So there's a time to born.

Be born in time to die time to plant time to pluck up what is planted time to kill a time to heal a time To break down and time to build up

a time to weep time to laugh a time to mourn a time to dance.

So there's a.

There's an appropriate time, right?

There's a season in time for every matter of the Sun and the Christian life.

You know, obviously like we're not like the pagans who grieve as those who have no hope.

So the Christian life is not meant to be a life that is filled with continual perpetual indefinite life

-dominating.

Mourning.

So there's a time where there's an appropriate time for that and then there's some time where it no longer becomes appropriate.

For that but that I mean that's definitely a hard sell.

For people in general, yeah.

Yeah, like make meaning I don't think that.

Like it's one thing to say that there's an appropriate time to mourn right and then you need to move on

but then it's a quite a different thing to actually look at another human being and Say, I think

you've moved beyond like the appropriate time where mourning is allowed at

this point and So you you need to think about what you're doing there and you know I mean there's

I think there's a wide variety of reasons why that's the case but then I think this is one of those topics where

There's a lot of things that have conspired to basically bring us to this point where you're not

really allowed to talk about this topic and You know part of that is because like who knows who might be going

through Intense times of mourning right now.

But then I think we as a church We really haven't prepared people very well to mourn and to

grieve very well and we haven't taught them what biblical mourning looks like as compared to pagan mourning and

I think you know by and large, you know, it's just You know Kibler Ross and all that you go

through the five stages of grief and you know Take however long it takes to get

to the other side of it and that's different for every single person and so we've moved away from like a more

biblical idea of what mourning and grief looks like to where there are appropriate

times and places for this and then you move beyond that and you're expected to exercise certain

control over your emotions at that point to a point where there's just no expectations upon anyone to

Be like not only like to be responsible for their feelings at all but to being charged of the

feelings at all either so like the idea of like emotional self -control is Utterly foreign to us

in general.

So then you know when you're talking about a topic like this, we don't.

We don't have the social mechanisms in place anymore to even understand what's being communicated.

And then if you try to talk about those social mechanisms actually where you may get into trouble

pretty quickly.

Well, yeah, and that and that kind of leads into the second question that I was wondering, you know.

When it when it comes to this topic, I mean, I think a lot of people as you were saying earlier I

think a lot of most people in our society maybe Would you know like let's say someone,

you know, they lose like their their mother or their father or something like that.

You know, that's that's not an insignificant loss, right?

And so they're so it's understandable for a person to mourn that loss.

But then I think most people would probably say like hey You need to take as much time as you

need to mourn this kind of loss, right?

Right, but then but then it seems like You know God is saying God is essentially

saying like there, you know, there is an appropriate time for that but it's not like a It's not

necessarily like a take as much time as you need right, right.

It's it's more like a there, you know, there's a time for that and then there's a time

to Move on essentially.

So why why is it that God?

Is is prescribing a time of a time of mourning.

That it does that has a definite ending to it as opposed to just saying as opposed to just telling us.

You know, like what the world tells us to do take as much time as you need.

I I think a lot of people would probably Hear what we're saying here and they would say like hey that doesn't sound

nearly as loving as just take as much time as you need.

So why so why does God do that?

Because he's obviously a loving God.

I mean, you know God is a loving God.

And so everything that he tells us to do is, you know for his glory and for our good.

So, how is that?

How is this for his glory and for our good?

Yeah well I mean.

I think if you the part of the way that you try to answer something like that is just to think about the kind of Societies that used to exist

and so meaning like if you were to watch I don't know if you've ever watched Downton Abbey with your wife or

something.

But I have no.

Good you you have retained your man card.

No, but I mean like there's deaths that happened in the family and

You can just imagine like period pieces and things like that where they would wear Black for a period of time because they were

quote -unquote in mourning or something like that.

And so you had social mechanisms that we used to have that would define like specific periods of mourning.

For people in that way to where you know.

You wear your black for a period of time to say now I'm in a time of mourning and then you know.

You take off your morning clothes and you face reality at a certain point.

But so we don't we no longer have those kind of mechanisms anymore.

And in fact, what's happened is we we basically surrendered to this idea

that mourning is person -specific and Sometimes it takes longer for certain people than

it takes for other people.

Therefore you need to get through it somehow, right?

It's just kind of kind of passively happen.

You're gonna get to the other side, you know.

And a lot of that's just related to the psychological kind of books that have been put out on this thing you know the most popular

is the five stages of Grief to where you have to get through all those five stages and there's no definable time period and

everything else.

But then you look at that and you say well, why would God have?

Things that I mean like, you know, it should be through the Bible like Ecclesiastes is saying there's a time to mourn right?

I guess there's a time for everything.

But there's actual defined mourning periods in the Bible.

Meaning like they mourn for 30 days after the death of Moses.

I mean the typical standard Jewish mourning period was seven days.

So they would mourn for seven days you know you have Exceptional

times of mourning in different ways.

But I mean you can just look up you can look up these words in the Bible and you'll see that they they were thinking on a definite kind of

timetable and What's happened is it's like obviously like if you're a human being you can look at someone you say Hey,

well like if in the Bible their standard mourning period was seven days.

Does that mean that you're not going to feel sad after seven days?

You're just gonna shut off your emotions like that and you're just gonna you know, move on, right?

Not think about it anymore not feel sad anymore everything else.

Like part of the problem though is what's happened is that we've surrendered to this idea that people can't control their

feelings.

Right, right.

I could have no responsibility whatsoever to control their feelings and To ask someone

in general like if you think about it this way to ask someone in general to control their feelings seems to be Profoundly

monstrous, right?

So yeah, whether it's talking about your child like you're disrespectful child trying to ask them to control their feelings.

Whether it's talking about, you know, the transgender person like who basically has certain feelings they feel Certain

things pretty profoundly you're telling them to deny those feelings the same -sex Attracted kind of person you're telling

them to deny their feelings.

You're talking about a woman.

Yeah, I can telling a woman that like hey, you know what you feel isn't true.

It's not connected to reality like in all these ways like we've lost the idea that people have any

ability whatsoever To control their feelings even and then when you

you add on to that like Like grief like grieving a loss like sadness that comes from

a loss.

It's like if there's any like If there's anything that's more understandable Like a more

understandable reason to feel sad is because people have died, right?

Right death is an enemy like it and one day guys gonna wipe every tear from her eyes.

Everything else and so it's obviously normal and right natural to grieve the loss of a loved one Jesus

wept over the death of Lazarus.

And so you have like this presupposition.

You're not able to control your feelings at all that is and then

asking someone to control their feelings is seen as monstrous and Then if you leap if

you add on to that like a victim category, they're a victim like in this case They would be a true victim, right?

Unless they you know with a murderer themselves or something They would be a true victim in this kind of

scenario then you're really like you're blaming the victim.

You're shaming the victim and everything else.

But your question is well, why is it?

Why would that be better?

Right?

I would write Think having some sort of definable mourning period is better than

this indefinite kind of mourning forever.

And I think it's just obvious like meaning, you know, God's given the human human beings.

A.

Lot more to do in life than to sit around and crippling sadness and despair and perpetuity

forever, right so like if you're just gonna like wallow in your grief and wallow in your

mourning and Wallow in your sadness and wallow in your misery.

I mean one is unpleasant, right?

I guess an unpleasant thing to do but then you know and in the person might

Instantaneously respond to that like as if that's a choice or something like that and that's based on the assumption You have no control over

what's happening right at all but then it's like you have other things to do like if if.

The only way I mean typically the only way that a person can just sit there and wallow in their get like their grief

In perpetuity forever is if someone is gonna subsidize it.

Do you understand what I mean?

Yeah.

Like meaning that someone's gonna have to foot the bill for you to sit there in your grief Indefinitely for

a long period of time and the very mechanisms that God's designed to help you get past your grief.

Are the things like working right getting up working with your hands devoting yourself to a purpose

greater than yourself.

Devoting yourself to something outside of yourself, right?

So like the idea of saying hey for a time period let's say it was seven days.

Like it was for the Jews in that way.

There's typical standard mourning period where you're not gonna.

Where you're gonna be like Job and you're gonna sit there and cut your scabs with pots, you know.

Whatever.

I mean, there's a time to do that to where you just say hey, I need to mourn the loss of

Everything that just happened, but then it can't go on in perpetuity forever because you'll starve to

death and you'll die, right?

Right, like if you just sit there in your morning, you're gonna starve to death and you're gonna die but then the only way that people

Get to just sit there in perpetuity forever.

Mourning is if someone with the checkbook comes along and let's say do you see what I mean?

Yeah.

Yeah, so like why would God prescribe certain time periods like that's because he has other things for you to do, right?

He has other things for you to do in the world besides just sit there and feel sad, you know in perpetuity forever and I'm not you know, I'm not

trying to talk about this in the Cavalier way as if like This is not a serious topic or that it's not.

You know like the loss of the loved one, it's just no big deal.

You can just shut it off like a water fountain or something like that.

But you do have to think well, what is the Bible saying here?

And what does it mean, you know, and how do we apply it in these kind of situations?

Yeah.

Yeah, so so I know you mentioned you mentioned a little bit.

Like certain time periods, but then reading through the Bible.

Do you think that there is a certain prescribed? Time period for us like a definable.

It's it's this long or you know, it's actually this long when it comes to morning for us

today.

Yeah, I mean the typical period, you know as you read through the Bible the typical period is that seven -day period and I think that that's

just such a shock to the system to modern viewers and Modern listeners because we just we don't have any

category for any of this and so it just sounds so crazy.

But then if you think about something like a seven -day morning period or something like that.

Like if we were to think about things like that, like seven -day morning period even a month morning period or something like that.

Like life typically has to go on in general mm -hmm, and so like meaning I think

in men in general often they handle morning a little bit better than women in general

because you know often that's a tied to just Practical considerations.

Hey, we have to move on right?

We can't just stay here, right?

Just stay here forever we have to move on and then Like if we don't we're gonna starve to death and we're gonna die

and we so we have to get back.

You know, so a lot of it's just related to practical realities like it getting yourself back to work

and going back to your job.

All these things are saying I have to turn a corner.

I have to move on because I have responsibilities that people actually Are depending on me will feel

fulfilling and it's so in general.

Those are the very things that keep you from being trapped in Morning and often like being

trapped indefinitely in morning.

It comes about due to the fact that you're in a situation that allows you to be idle without

so when you have people who do have no expectations of you to move on and They're gonna subsidize it

and they're gonna leave you in it, right?

And you don't have a whole lot to do then what typically happens is you can get kind of you can get trapped and Just

an indefinite kind of morning loop basically, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, and so so yeah, I mean I think that The idea of like in the Bible like

if you were just to say hey, yeah, their standard morning period was seven days.

That would be like yeah.

That's typically about as long as you're gonna be able to sit there sit around to do nothing, right?

Right before you start starving to death or whatever else like meaning like there's gonna be some biological things.

They're gonna prevent you from just camping out in this period.

Indefinitely, but then I think social media often adds to this as well.

Meaning.

Like social me like for people like social media is has is kind of a means of

Helping are encouraging people to in to grieve indefinitely mm -hmm because

like their social media account just becomes like a diary of Their

emotional pain that they're trapped in indefinitely forever, and then you have people

who are and you just like Constantly encouraging that right and responding to

that and hey, you know thinking about you praying about you Sorry for your loss over and over again.

So sometimes people can kind of get addicted to that feeling of.

Like.

Like I'm gonna put all my pain out here without any brakes on it whatsoever.

And then everyone is kind of responding to that and that just can kind of keep people trapped in it as well.

But yeah, yeah, so I mean I would say that in general there's obviously a time to

Mourn in the proper sense of the word Mm -hmm like meaning

experience intense, you know crippling kind of sadness and just Take

yourself away from your normal responsibilities of life.

I think there's a time for that biblically and then there's a time to say we have to Take take the next step here

move on to the next thing for sure.

Now, what do you you know?

Let's say someone goes through like a seven day Morning period

and Then they come to the end of that.

It's time to get back to regular everyday life, and they're still sad.

Yep.

You know what?

I mean, I mean What do you do?

I mean, do you keep mourning because you're still sad or you know?

Are you like is it unhealthy in some way to?

Start getting back into the normal everyday thing your normal everyday routine when you're sad in that way.

But I think a lot of people in that kind of situation. They feel guilty for moving on.

Because it feels like it's like dishonoring to the person and dishonoring to their memory just to say, okay.

Hey, yeah, I'm just gonna Let myself move on and so a lot of what what's happening is you have different

societal expectations that are clashing in these moments meaning like if you if you.

If you're moving away from a society that says hey, there are defined mourning periods, right?

To a society where it's just indefinite like in perpetuity is take as long as you need.

Then what that doesn't do is it doesn't train you to Be the master of your emotions

to have an emotional self -control in that way.

It basically puts you at the mercy of your emotions.

You see what I mean?

So like the the periods of mourning in the Bible are meant to be mechanisms which train your emotions.

So you're training your emotions to respond to these societal mechanisms.

You say hey step one.

Let's define an appropriate mourning period.

Appropriate mourning period is seven days if that's what you know, I mean, that's what it was in the Old Testament.

But I mean it generally speaking there's exceptions like you have a remarkable 30 -day mourning period for Moses.

But you know, whatever, you know, let's say it's a month if you can manage to get out of work for a month.

I don't know how many people could actually do that.

Except for maybe homemakers or something like that.

But let's say it were a month or whatever if you were to train your emotions to say hey I'm taking off my morning

clothes and turning a corner on that.

I mean there is a very like real reality that.

Is that possible?

Well, it's it's obviously possible, right?

I mean, it's obviously possible to train your emotions to respond to these kind of things if you but you have to accept that.

That's actually what you should be doing.

And so, you know, one of the things that's amazing here is that as you read the Bible There are certain people who are

prohibited from mourning at times.

You know from mourning at all.

Okay, so meaning like just just to give you some examples of that like so what we're talking about is saying Hey, you know, what

if a person doesn't feel like they can turn it off after seven days or something?

Well God expected certain people in the Bible to not ever turn it on.

Okay, so meaning like, you know with the death of Nadab and Abihu Aaron was

prohibited from publicly mourning at all.

He wasn't allowed to tear his robes he wasn't allowed to you know have a gloomy expression or anything like he wasn't allowed to do that

because like the issue was they incited a rebellion against God and if

Aaron, you know The chief priests were to be seen to grieve the loss of that that would call him to question the

justice of God there so in other words He had a responsibility to defend God in that kind of scenario and not

Into like Cole his natural emotional allegiance to his family members.

Like God had to be sanctified in Presence of people right in that way.

So that tells you that God has a different standard of Emotional self -control

than what we do, right?

Like another example of that is like David after the death of Absalom, you know Absalom like incites a rebellion

against David.

You know sleeps with his wives in the presence of everyone else.

You know starts a coup takes tries to take over the kingdom and there's men that like are on David's side who

are given their life in order to put down this rebellion from the stubborn and rebellious son and David is telling them don't even

kill kill him as the law tells him right and so then when David receives news that Absalom

died He's sitting there saying Oh Absalom.

Oh Absalom my son Oh Absalom and you know job Basically rebukes him for this and

says hey, you know the people instead They want a great victory put their life on the line for you.

And now they're slinking away as if You know something They've done

something wrong, right?

Right and you better go out there and turn off the waterworks like you better go out there and let everyone know that like

Their lives are more valuable to them than your stubborn or rebellious son that's trying to kill you, right?

And so like you can think about situations like this and that tells you that God has that category for emotional self

-control.

Even as it relates to the loss of a loved one.

Meaning like there are situations where it's totally inappropriate even to grieve at all in the presence of anyone,

right?

Because of what that act means and what it's actually saying.

And so I think if you were to if we could return to this idea that you know Our feelings aren't our

masters, but we're the masters of our feelings if you could return to that kind of idea.

Then what that would mean is you would say hey when I go through a loss like a significant

loss.

There's a time.

To.

Give my feelings a free free reign, right?

And then there's a time to return to like self -control in the biblical sense like mastery of your feelings.

There's a time to become the master of your feelings again in that way, right?

So there's a time to let it out and then there's a time to take it back, right?

Yeah, and and that's basically what we need is we need to return to that kind of notion that we have

any kind of Responsibility for how we feel in general.

So then you know to that person who basically is.

They've let themselves go for seven days and now they're unable to take it back, right?

Like you're basically saying well within you know, well if they would step one say hey I'm the master of my

emotions not the other way around right?

Mm -hmm.

I'm not defined by my feelings.

I'm the master of my my feelings, right?

I have self -control.

I have emotional self -control.

Like I can't just Let my heart Feel whatever it wants to feel

Indefinitely forever, right?

Yeah, step one.

Is that step two is what you define?

What is an appropriate?

License to give to sadness, right?

So what is an appropriate time period, you know, and What you know, it needs to be definable

I can't just be indefinite question mark whoever take as long as like what what is it, you know?

So set a time period in that way.

But then when you're getting to the end of that time period what you are doing, you know.

What you're supposed to be doing what people used to know that they were supposed to be doing is you're getting to a point.

We're saying okay.

I've.

There's a time for every activity under the Sun.

I've given myself to grief and now it's time to Be responsible move on and

not let myself wallow in this anymore, but then what's happening is that.

You have a whole society who has devoted itself to the idea that if you try to suppress those feelings in any way.

That you're fundamentally harming yourself, right?

Right?

Yeah, you're not.

You're not showing yourself enough self -care.

Enough self -care, right?

So it's our responsibility to validate people's feelings affirmed people's feelings indefinitely not to suppress them

because that would be emotionally harmful to you and probably like, you know, Physically harmful to you or something

like that.

And so we've declared war against the idea of emotional self -control.

And so then what happens is people they just feel like they have to Just emote.

Indefinitely forever.

Or else they're doing violence to themselves and they're doing violence even to the memory of their loved one.

So that I mean so those mechanisms in other words, they help people to say Like to have

defined parameters for what is appropriate and acceptable.

Grief right, but then if you don't do that, then like what you know, we don't grieve as those who have no hope.

Well, what does hopeless grief look like?

Well, it's indefinite, right?

Like it's indefinite.

It goes on and on and on it doesn't like it's not God -centered.

It's not like rejoicing in hope, right?

It's not hope -filled.

It's just despair indefinite despair sorrow despondency.

Period right and so like you like if you if you aren't able to say what's appropriate.

Then you're not gonna persuade me that what you're gonna do is appropriate.

Do you get what I mean?

Yeah.

Yeah, so I guess I guess I have two questions there and the first one being related back to the

whole.

You know, there there are certain times where you don't Mourn, right?

And you gave a few biblical examples where God commanded that so does that mean.

I mean should we take anything from that to say?

Like hey, there are certain people that you know In a normal situation you would mourn

losing that person but then Because of actions that that person performed in their life

We're no longer going to mourn their loss.

So so like one at one example that I can think of and maybe it's not like a perfect example.

But one one example I can think of would be like John Piper and his son

Abraham Piper where where Abraham Abraham Piper

has essentially made it like his life goal to get as many people

Away from Christianity as possible, right and right and now, you know.

Is that the same thing is trying to overthrow?

Like the kingdom of God's chosen people.

The Israelites, you know I don't know.

I don't know how they all stack up but then it would that be an example or at least like, you know

close to an example of Like hey, we're no longer going to mourn, you know.

If you're John Piper, if you're that if you're the Piper family, we're no longer.

We're not going to mourn his loss because of the actions that he carried out

in his lifetime or.

Are those just you know specific to those?

You know those points in the Old Testament like is that specific to David.

I don't think yeah.

I mean, I wouldn't want to say that it's specific to David or is specific to Aaron, you know, so

my impulse would be to say hey we need to think about.

You know, obviously whatever is written in former times is written for our instruction that the man of God may be equipped You know for

every good work here.

Yeah, so if I would be concerned if someone couldn't think about

Conceivable parallels to today in that way you get what I'm saying?

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, so.

Yeah, I mean, I think if I mean, I think with the David kind of who?

Like what you have is you have loyalty to The kingdom right

like in that way.

So you have like like meaning like you have a stubborn rebellious son who started a rebellion against, you know, the kingdom he's trying to

overthrow you and then Typically when you win a military battle you celebrate

I get part part of what you do.

Is you're gonna celebrate the victory because you know that it comes at like the expense of life's in that

way, right?

There's many of people who came and they were they laid down their life in order to protect you for this purpose and now you've

Won so you have a responsibility in that way to rejoice this mitigating against your responsibility to

mourn, right?

Like in that way.

So I was think think with like there are human obligations that could keep a person from mourning.

That I could conceive of to where you have.

You have to prioritize Like grief over rejoicing in this way, right?

Does that make sense?

Yeah, and which what way you prioritize is going to say something about What you care

about the most and that's what was a shame to David in that way, right?

What was a shame is that his heart cared more about his son than it did the kingdom in that moment

and That was a rebuke to him meaning.

So the kingdom you have responsibilities to the kingdom you have responsibilities to the Sun now as it

relates to like Aaron with Nadab and Abihu, maybe that's a clear like a

Closer parallel to what you're talking about.

Yeah in general like meaning You have Nadab and Abihu offering strange fire before the Lord he

consumes him.

What needs to happen is that Aaron needs to vindicate God in this moment?

What God did was just what God did was right, right?

My loyalties are to God.

So you have moments where you have to say hey my loyalties to God and there's and that supersedes my loyalty to

family, right?

And then there's moments where you say hey my loyalties to Others it supersedes loyalty to family

too in that way.

So I think that there yeah I mean, I'm open to the idea that there are parallels to this I probably need to put some more thought into what those

actually are, but I don't like.

You know, I think like mourning the death of a apostate may be An example

of that kind of thing like to where you have different loyalties that are coming To you in

that way.

Now.

I.

Would think it would be.

You can imagine a parallel if like your apostate son Started persecuting Christians

and was killing them and everything else.

How that would ramp it up a little bit to maybe even a more clear scenario, right?

Yeah.

To where.

Like finally you achieve the military victory over, you know.

Your son.

And then if you're gonna go along in mourning for days and days and days and that celebration that your fellow Christians are No longer

beheaded that says something about your priorities at that point for sure, right?

Now if God were to act an immediate judgment against a an apostate son.

That may be a even clearer parallel tighter parallel if that makes sense.

Where God burns, you know burns them up and instantaneous act that would be maybe a clearer.

But I mean, I think that's something that people should put some thought into.

Is it appropriate to?

Mourn the loss of an apostate.

Particularly one like Abraham.

I can that way and.

And I don't think it.

I don't think people should respond to that kind of thing emotionally.

I think they should actually Say hey if there is a difference, what is the difference if it makes sense?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, and then the second question I had was, you know, we've been we've been talking about this idea of a

period of mourning.

And.

One of the things that I was thinking through is You know We we've been looking

at it from the perspective of like the person who is mourning for far too

long, right and right and why God why God is essentially trying to protect us from that, but then

It kind of seems like there would be you know a benefit for the person who's tempted in the opposite way

Right as well like they got it.

God's trying to encourage the person who would say Hey, I'm just gonna keep going

on.

Like nothing's wrong, you know, I've just got to keep working and that and that's how I'm gonna.

That's how I'm gonna cope with this situation.

With the loss of a loved one or whatever it is.

You know, is there.

I mean, is there any truth to the statement like that God is is Giving

this period of mourning as like a protection for that person as well to help them.

Actually truly like work through the sadness that they might feel.

Sure, I think so.

Yeah, I think that there are you know offices you rejoice to those you rejoice and you weep with those who

weep and.

People would kind of absolutize that command to where you know.

Anytime someone is weeping you have some moral responsibility to weep indefinitely with them.

I think that's inappropriate.

But I mean, I think at the same time like if you feel nothing at the loss of a loved one it could be that you

Are callous right?

It may be revealing something about Like your character in that kind of way now, I mean at the same time.

You know, if you if you have a family member who has lived a full life.

Like a life to the full, right?

So they're 90 years old.

They walk with the Lord their whole life.

I would think that grief should be a little bit different for them than it should be.

Like.

You know the death of a Child or something like that, right?

Anyway, like it meaning like if you do we are Christians like and the Bible clearly says we don't grieve as those

who have no, hope and So we should be grieving in a hopeful way.

And if you see hey, like there does need to be something in you that says hey we're

supporting a man wants to die and after that judgment and When we're talking about the subject of grief in general

Like how long do you want them to live right?

Do you want them to live to their 150 or something like that?

I so like part of just like grieving the 90 year old person who's died Who's lived a long full life and

now their body is broken down to the point where they're no longer even useful like there is a sense in which like

Death for them is kind of a mercy and it's better for them to die than for them to carry on forever and ever

In in like just a state of you know, Alzheimer's or dementia or For out being bedridden

or whatever.

So I think our sadness is mitigated with Like we should have sadness, but then it's

mitigated with joy.

Like so the Christian perspective of death is their sadness there and there's joy there, right?

So there's joy mixed with sorrow and then when you have someone who's lived a full life there obviously I think should be this

like Hey, I'm excited for you you get to See this thing that we

are supposed to hope in that we've been hoping in our whole life, right?

You finally get to see the Lord and I'm Grateful for you for that and you no longer have to suffer

from that arthritis and you know the osteoporosis and the memory loss and the pain and everything else but

but so there's that but I mean I do think that so meaning like You know, there could be

conceivable situations where you feel sad.

But you feel more happy than you feel sad, you know, and that would be a normal Christian kind of response but then

like there is like a You know in the idea of like the quote -unquote untimely death or

something like that.

There is like I think the shock of death that was unexpected and you

know, you got the phone call and it was Horrible, right?

I can that way and then trying to process it and try to deal with it and not trying to just like bury your head In the sand and say hey, I'm gonna

ignore it and move on and and whatever else I think there is like a there should be a

moral response to Death is unnatural and it's an enemy and it's

wrong and it's right to grieve because Jesus grieved, right?

So there's there should be all that and like to the extent to which a person just feels nothing.

It may either reveal Hardness in their heart callousness in their heart or just kind of a foolish

Bravado there, right?

I'm just gonna manage this on my own in that way.

Yeah without any help.

So yeah, I think I think that that that period You know biblical morning is meant to

you know It like I think it's just meant to be an end of it itself as some it's a time where we

you know Rightly grieve the damaging effects of sin and it's a time where we we do need to be

thinking in that moment.

Not just like feeling right.

We do need to be thinking biblical thoughts and and Telling that renewing our mind and telling ourself.

What's true in these kind of moments and Like telling us one more true over and over again to the point where we feel

what's true even right?

So it's a time where you know, it's a reasonable time to just heal and to

tell yourself speak truth over yourself and Tell yourself the true things about you know about God that God's good,

right?

His purposes will stand and his ways are right and.

And.

He's not doing him anything wrong here, right?

He's not promised me Anything like he's not promised me like a long full life

with this person.

He's Like he's right all the time.

I'm gonna vindicate his character.

I'm gonna look forward to hit, you know, the realization of his purposes in that way.

But yeah, I think that it is a good time for people.

To.

Draw closer to him be sanctified in the midst of that.

It's a trial right and testing of our faith that produced steadfastness and help us to be more like him for sure.

So what so what should you know, what should we do?

When people When people we know are you know

either refusing to mourn altogether or They're mourning like far beyond what

would be considered like the acceptable Time of mourning.

I mean what how should we respond to those people.

Because I think most people would say well Hey, you just got a you know, hey, you know.

Encouraged you just encourage them, you know be there take as much time as you need.

Yeah ministry of presence type stuff.

And so so is that the answer or you know, is there more to it?

Is there less to it?

How do we respond to those kinds of people?

Yeah, so I took in seminary.

I took a class up.

So I had a lot of Good biblical counseling teachers and then I had one that wasn't so good.

There's more psychology based or whatever and it was a class on crisis counseling essentially.

And the premise I mean the whole premise of the class was essentially just to say that the only things

that Job's counselors did right was they sat with him in silence for as long as what they did, right?

And so like in other words like That and what the teacher called this was the ministry of

presence, right?

Just be there for them and I think you know, I think there's a lot to be said about that.

But.

Not as an indefinite strategy that has no ending whatsoever and that's basically the problem of the course

is that you basically have a Ministry of press like whenever someone goes through pain and suffering it your only

responsibility to that kind of person.

It's just to indefinitely Sit there with them right and feel whatever they're

feeling.

So it's just like empathy.

It's the sin of empathy extended out in perpetuity forever, right?

It's like but you can't actually do that.

No one can do that.

Like I I can't Quit my job, you know in order to emote with you

indefinitely Forever, right, right as you refuse to accept what's happening

happened and move on, right?

And put one foot in front of the next and seek the honor of the Lord.

So in that kind of class, like I mean, it's funny because I you know that we went through the five stages of grief

and.

All that and.

I wrote a paper basically just trying to argue that it was a Christian's responsibility to speak truth

to people in the midst of grieving and my professor basically said He gave me I

didn't know if I was gonna get a good grade on this because my paper was basically disagreeing with everything.

It was happening in the class.

He looked at my paper and he said, you know, I he gave me an a he's like I have to give you a good grade because you did a lot of work on

this and You know, I can't deny that you did a lot of work on this but I

Disagree with everything you said in this paper, and I wouldn't let you near anyone to counsel.

You know, I strongly recommend you stay away from anyone who's ever grieving for the rest of your life.

You know until you change your mind and recant all this, you know mean stuff that you're saying in here.

But yeah, that was one of my more funny seminary paper reviews at that point.

But no, I mean.

That's.

Pretty good.

That's pretty good.

The problem was I mean we left the Bible behind in this class and like there was no Bible mention whatsoever.

It was just you know, the basic assumption is that it's our responsibility to validate a person's feelings.

Indefinitely and to enter into their world and just feel what they're feeling indefinitely forever with no breaks.

So you don't you know, it's basically you don't shame the victim.

You don't blame the victim.

You don't Hold the victim responsible for anything.

You just sit there and feel and I think that's certainly true.

I mean, I think that's certainly true.

There's a time to shut up, right?

Like.

You know, I don't think The first thing you do when you see someone who's in the midst of suffering is just to go

up to him and say hey.

You know what God works all things together for good.

So we'll see him in heaven, man.

You know, I don't know that that's necessarily the first thing you Say.

It may just be that they're don't even know what's going on right now and The best thing you can do is yeah, I go

sit there with them, right?

Yeah, I guess you can't.

I guess you can't say like right after they get off the phone.

They just got the call that they lost a loved one.

I guess you can't be like look at your watch me like you got seven days, man.

Then you're gonna get it from me.

Yeah.

No, I don't think I don't think that's true.

I mean, I don't think that's the first thing you should do but Like meaning I'm not saying it's wrong.

I'm.

You know.

If something's true, it's true.

I mean, but you can obviously do that in a very cavalier insensitive kind of way and I I think.

You know a lot of people they they just when they're in the middle of you know planning a funeral and all the stuff

that's going on and just all these questions like you can step in and try to help them out and Help them answer

some of those questions and you can be a great help to them in those kind of moments.

Like just practically, you know helping them with food and you know helping them arrange certain things and

everything else.

You know to extent to which they want them and just you know Being there for them being a shoulder for them to cry on sure.

That's all true.

But I mean a certain point they're gonna start telling you the theology of the thing.

And when they start telling you there's theology of the thing I think you do need to be a Christian brother and sister to them.

You know, I went through.

I mean, I'm still going through him instead of a really weird trial right now.

I.

Related to some strange health problems that I've been going through and That don't

have good medical answers right now.

But I mean I've had You know person after person after person loved me

enough to try to snap some sense into me and help me to you know Rebuke me if I'm saying

things that it rebuked me even if I'm saying things that are don't sound very biblical in certain ways.

Man that's been a blessing to me and I appreciate that and you know, I think godly people should Like

there may be like you go through a trial you may you may have like some crazy thoughts that you need to repent of and that are

wrong, you know, and that's fine.

And so I think Christians shouldn't be like the kind of people who are just

Like in charge of their suffering right like where they come up with all these rules on how you need to care for

me in The midst of my suffering and how you need to talk to me in the midst of my suffering and you know what?

I think I need to hear, you know often you don't even know what you need to hear so, you know God's put you put other people around you to help

wake you up and tell you things.

You don't want to hear and Help because they're thinking probably a lot more clearly than you are, right?

And they can be a blessing to you and you know, I mean I I've had family members who have told me things that

I Need to hear and that's been a blessing to me and that's been helpful to me.

You know.

My dad sent me sermons to listen to and sermons to watch in the midst of you know my current situations and they've been good,

you know, and that's been helpful to me and you know, I have a Brothers who will snap some sense into me if I'm

tempted to give up give myself over to self -pity and you know I have church members who will laugh at me at the midst of my trial.

And I appreciate that, you know like that.

We can all find a little bit of humor and some of it, you know.

So I mean, but I mean, I think that's good.

That's good.

Like we we We shouldn't take ourselves so seriously to the point where we can't.

You know, like we're everything you just has to yeah.

You can if you just have to walk on eggshells around a person then like, you know that man something's going on, right?

Right, probably not.

So I think there's a point where yeah, you give a person a lot of space.

But once they start telling you the theology and once that theology is awful, you know it's like really bad like you can

love them in those moments and try to gently help them and You know, they're either gonna like it or they're not, you know, but

that's not you they need.

People are grieving.

They do need to hear certain things sometimes too.

And I think the error of Job's Friends was not just that they spoke.

I think the error.

I mean, I think they grieved with him appropriately, right?

They sat with him appropriately.

They gave with him appropriately and then when it became the time to speak the problem was God says they didn't say the things that Were right

about him and that's the problem, right?

So the issue is not like just shut up forever and don't say anything.

The issue is make sure that what you're saying is right and not just jumping to conclusions and oh, well, you're going through something

bad.

So it must be something wrong with you, you know kind of thing now.

It could be it could be but like they just they were wrong in that situation for sure.

Okay.

Well, I think that's a good place for us to Wrap up the conversation on.

So, you know, I think this is a good thing to talk about.

Yeah, especially because like we said in the beginning it really is kind of this this thing where you're just not

allowed to have any sort of like Expectation of someone

who is dealing with the lid with a legitimate loss.

You know, you're just it's just it's basically the expectation is take as much time as you need and.

And.

You know just figure it out and.

Right.

Just, you know sit around and be sad forever if that's what if that's what it.

Just traps people indefinitely in their sadness when they.

Instead of helping them to move on.

Yeah, and like a hopelessness, right?

Like you're even you.

Yeah.

Yeah, and so so God giving us a certain prescribed, you know,

this expectation that hey there is a time for mourning That is finite it has an end to it.

That's helpful it helps us to work through Understanding and and coming to

terms with Whatever the loss was and you know, it helps us to begin to

transition back to normal life.

Coming out of that that mourning period, you know, and and really like you said to at some point

during the episode.

That.

Expectation from God helps us to you know work through the grief as

well because we start getting back to normal life and you know going back to work and and

and you know, whatever else is going on and so so but you're just not allowed to

really say any of this or have any expectation of The person who is grieving and and so I

think it's good to try and talk through this and have that.

You know have this conversation.

Because I don't know how often we think about How we grieve as a society and

but then it's a normal part of every person's life.

I mean everyone has lost a family member before or if they haven't they will you know?

I mean, that's just a normal part of life living in a fallen world and so we need to know as Christians how to be

the kind of people who Grieve as those with hope not.

Should be like an actual goal we have, you know, and that's part of what's part of what's.

Because this conversation these kind of conversations are impossible to have.

It's almost as if you're not really allowed to Make that an appropriate goal even yeah.

But you know you you have to prepare like the issue is you do have to prepare for the dark day before you Arrive.

And part of preparing for the dark day is to say hey, what does grieving with hope look like actually right, right?

And what does it not look like actually and then in that moment say hey Lord I want I need you to help me to

do this in a way that honors you, right?

And I know that it's not gonna honor you just to indefinitely wallow in self -pity and sadness and

despair and hopelessness Forever like that's not what you've.

That's not what you that is not you.

So help me to Prepare for that day.

No knowing that can happen at any point and we're not promised tomorrow, right?

Absolutely.

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