April 12, 2016 Show with Jeffrey D. Johnson on “Behind The Bible: A Primer in New Testament Textual Criticism” and “The Church: Why Bother? The Nature, Purpose, and Functions of the Local Church”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors

Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

Matthew henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with And directed to have in view in conversation

To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this fall will be accomplished over the next hour

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions Now here's our host chris arnton

Good afternoon cumberland county pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet earth

Listening via live streaming. This is chris arnton your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy tuesday on this 12th day of april 2016

I'm, very happy to have returning as our guest today who I think he may be washing dishes right now judging from the sound effects

On the other side of the phone, but we have our friend Pastor jeffrey d johnson joining us today again

He is founder of free grace press And the pastor of grace bible church in conway arkansas

We're going to be addressing two of his books today or the themes of two of his books the first Behind the bible a primer in new testament textual criticism

And then for the second hour We are going to Readdress or return to a book.

We already examined on a past interview But there's a lot to say on this topic and the issue will be the church.

Why bother? the nature purpose and functions of the local church And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron pastor jeffrey d johnson

Thank you. Chris. It's good to be back with you And let me introduce you to my co -host today reverend buzz taylor good to have you back jeff

Thanks buzz. It's good to talk to you Great. Well before we Go into the topics at hand.

I never uh, take it for a try not to ever take it for granted that everybody is

Who is listening is not a new listener? and therefore there may have been people who

Did not hear your last interview who don't know anything about either grace bible church in conway arkansas or free grace press

So let let's let our listeners know something more in detail about each of those. Let's start with your church grace bible church

Yeah, thanks for asking about the church the church has been uh the existence for 15 years i've been the sole pastor started uh 15 years ago back in my living room and another family's living room and the lord has really blessed the church over the years and led us and we're so encouraged because we're

We're finally getting our own physical place And we'll be moving in to our new location at the end of the year and god's originally provided us.

I I our own place to worship and it looks like when it's all said and done we're going to be

Into the place debt -free, which is pretty unheard of I think nowadays to be in such a position as we are in Out of curiosity, where have you been meeting?

Well the last four years we've been meeting on the college campus. There's a beautiful baptist campus college here in conway and they've been really

Kind to us and we've been meeting in their in their chapel facility the last four years and before that we have we met um

In bingo halls, we've met in a noble home. We've kind of traveled around But uh, the lord's blessed us in the last four or five years where we've grown quite a bit

Now we're launching out into our own place. So it's pretty exciting times for grace bible church

Great. Well having met in bingo holes all those years Is the dominant makeup of your uh membership, uh, 80 years old with blue hair

Ha ha ha well, I was noticing a something missing from that list he gave us because It seems the popular thing around here when you're starting a church is you rent the seventh day at venice building

So yeah, yeah, we did we looked at that. We did look into it A day after this building, but that didn't work out.

The bingo hall was a weird thing. I was going to the gym one day And there was a bingo hall.

I mean, it's just a big warehouse building Right next to the gym, I said i'm gonna walk in there and see see if Just look at this place.

And of course, we don't play bingo by no means but we we went in there I went in there and said hey, we're looking for a place to have worship.

Do y 'all use this on sunday? And he said no, uh, feel free to come and use it and asked him what he would want for rent

He says no, I can't charge. I couldn't charge the lord rent and so, uh We we met in there for a while I do say it wasn't the ideal place it was

It's like meeting in a big football stadium. It's a time. We only had about 30 people and it it was like putting 30 people into a

Just like meeting in the middle of walmart without any show, right? Yes. Yes It's hardly conducive to worship, but you try it.

Yeah And so we were we were glad to move out of that phase And well an ideal place to attract roman catholic converts

Stay late after bingo. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Uh, and tell our listeners something more about the church itself.

Is it a reformed baptist church? Is it confessional? Uh, et cetera. Yeah, it's a it's a 69.

Um, london baptist confessional church. We're reformed baptist um church, we have elder led um church, so It's really a blessing.

Uh, the church has been just such a a joy to pastor and um, just a lot of solid folks, um a lot of times the reformed baptist churches are not the largest churches around but Typically if you find one you found

A pretty special thing and I definitely believe we have a pretty special church Karen conway great and tell us something about free grace press

Free grace press started five years ago and um honestly, it was started because I wrote a book of my

I published my dissertation my doctoral dissertation the fatal flaw the theology behind infant baptism and as I was looking for publishers, uh

Richard belcher who's wrote the Many books of that journey of grace. Yes wrote a series of books really.

He's kind of a mentor to me and he he was one of the readers of the dissertation and And I was talking to him about getting a publisher and he just says you really are to just go ahead and not

Try to look for a publisher but self -publish it. He really encouraged me to to self -publish it and I said,

I think i'll do that and then um rather than just Putting my name on it.

I thought might as well create a logo and a name Make it look like it's published. Um, and that's what

I did and in five years We're putting out the next six months.

We're going to release four or five new books And total we're going to end up having around 20 to 25 different titles

That we've published in this five -year period So to me, it's what started us just as a something of convenience has turned into a real legitimate

Publishing company and it's it's growing and i'm getting people Submitting their manuscripts to me on a regular basis, which we can't take every manuscript that gets sent to us

But it's really encouraging to see what lord's doing free grace press and we publish um classical reform baptist material will publish, you know, some of my stuff will publish some other people's stuff, but Uh, it's going to be solid literature if it comes from free grace press

Yeah, I mean your your uh covers and the quality of the binding and everything is very professional top top notch and you're getting endorsements by some of the most prominent christian thinkers in america today like even john, macarthur and others so This is not

I don't want to give our listeners the idea that this is some Guy with a staple gun in his basement putting together a loose leaf loose leaf

Manuscripts or something. These are these are top of the line, uh books there.

Yeah, we're using the same printers that Baker used and crossway used we're using the same printers the same quality if not, you know, we're not um

Trying to skip out on any of the process. In fact as we're going we're actually becoming more and more professional in our approach and um, so Uh, there has been a learning curve, but it's it's in fact we hired our first employee this last year

Uh, it's a part -time position But that shows that there's some growth that there's too much for one man to handle and one delegating out some responsibilities

So so pretty much press is growing and I look forward to it to continue to grow Uh, but we're the main thing we're doing is trying to stay um

At a reasonable rate of growth and keep the lower overhead down and so we can grow in a way that is sustainable

And I'll give out our email address if anybody listening wants to join us on the air with a question of your own

It's chris arnzen at gmail .com. C h r i s A r n z e n at gmail .com.

Please give us At least your first name your city and state and your country of residence If you live outside of the usa and the first hour as I mentioned we are going to be addressing

Jeff's book behind the bible a primer in new testament Textual criticism.

I just want to read a couple of endorsements very powerful endorsements that have uh been given for this book richard belcher who

Jeff mentioned earlier who is well known amongst especially reformed baptists in the united states or calvinistic baptists in general

Uh, he says about this book one of the most difficult areas Of biblical study is the matter of textual criticism

Which is the analysis of the ancient manuscripts of the bible in their original languages

In order that we might be certain of the reading of the biblical text Obviously, this is not something which can be done with perfection

But jeffrey johnson has in this book titled behind the bible show not only how it is done

But also that it can when done properly arrive with a great certainty of the original biblical text in a day and age when many are producing various translations of the bible

And one when one might wonder about the trustworthiness of some of the translations

Here is a book which covers many of the questions one might have concerning How the work of textual criticism is to be done in a proper manner in order to find the original reading of the biblical text

This book because of its clarity and helpfulness in the area of textual criticism Is a must reading for all pastors and students of the bible of our day and also a mutual friend of ours

Uh the world -renowned apologist and debater and author and new testament greek scholar, dr james r white of alpha omega ministries says

Jeffrey johnson has provided a helpful and clear discussion on the key issues behind the whys and wherefores

Of how we got our new testament text in light of the frontal assaults upon the integrity of the new

Of the text of the new testament pervasive in our day It is important for believers to have a knowledge of these matters

And johnson's work is a useful addition to the introduction available on the subject

And as I said, that was dr. James r white Well that should give us Our should give our listeners

Uh an explanation of exactly what we're talking about when we address textual criticism and uh

Doesn't this uh whole subject usually come to light in the media uh when those who are either liberals or perhaps

Have even abandoned the faith like bart ehrman uh a renowned textual critic who was at one time a professing christian and was viewed as perhaps uh a one day

Hero of of modern evangelicalism and a shining light and rising star in the

In the world of evangelical literature. He totally abandoned his faith and became an agnostic And isn't the textual criticism usually coming up in discussion?

Uh in the media and so on is when someone of that background is trying to get people to doubt

The reliability of the bibles that they have in their hands Yeah, that's right. Yeah, uh airmen would say like there's more variance in the bible than there are

Words in the bible and that's true And that seems so alarming that seems like okay.

That's I can't how can we trust the bible if there are more variants? There's over 200 000 variants um, and in all the you take all of our manuscripts that we have

Um that we know of and you compare them with one another there's going to be um

Over 200 000 variants and I forget exactly how many verses I mean words are in the bible, but I think it's 113 000 words are in the bible give or take some i'm not exactly sure my memory serves me right there, but so that's an alarming thing and and airmen will take that and use that as As an alarming statistic to say how can we trust?

Uh our our new testament text if there's so many variants um, and so And that was one of the this sentence of motives for writing this book

Is to provide the layman the person on the pew with an answer to such criticism a easy answer so And the goal of this book that I wrote was one simple objective was to show

Christians that we have a trustworthy text that we we have more than enough evidence to show that the god has

Preserved his word throughout the ages Well, jeff, maybe we need to start a little bit simpler here because i'm sure there are people listening who?

Uh, when you say textual criticism, it sounds like we're liberals criticizing a text So could you give us a definition what exactly you are talking about when you are talking about textual criticism

Yeah, yeah, there's there's two types of criticisms you have what you call higher criticism and that's with liberal theologians who are seeking to to look at the scriptures from a

Merely human product rather than seeing a divine author rather than seeing a supernatural

Inspiration your liberal theologians do not even accept that as a beginning presupposition

So they assume from the beginning that the scriptures are written by man and therefore they assume that because man is fallible there's going to be uh theological inconsistencies

Not textual inconsistencies per se but theological Distinctions or differences between the authorship.

So these critics these higher critics Are looking to undermine any any congruency that we would find throughout the

Different authors of the Old and New Testament. So they're they're seeking if you would to to undermine the inspiration of scriptures or undermine the doctrine of inspiration and that's because they don't accept it from the beginning and textual criticism on the other hand is

Obviously you can have some Liberal textual critics, but you have thankfully we have many many conservative textual critics

And the good It is called lower textual criticism Or we can call it textual criticism and the objective of that is that to look at all the ancient manuscripts that we have of the

Old and New Testament and then compare the manuscripts with one another to Reconstruct the original wording that was pinned in what we call the autographs

Now the autographs are the the original Documents that were if you would handwritten

By the original author if it would be Paul or if it be John or if it would be

Peter There was an original Document now we do not have those original documents but we have copies of those documents and those copies have been copied and those copies have been copied and the more

They were copied Spelling errors crept in sometimes words were misplaced and different variations took place as the as the

Manuscripts were copied and copied in that generation after generation up to 1 ,400 years of copying meaning meaning

Variants we wouldn't call them mistakes, but just kind of variations were brought in the thing that we need to know up front

Even though I've already said there's over 200 ,000 variants and the 50 in fact we have that we know of I think it's growing every year

But the last I saw that there's right at around fifty eight Hundred New Testament manuscripts and Of the fifty eight hundred

New Testament manuscripts, there's over two hundred thousand two hundred thousand variants When you say variants though, you're not talking about people even deliberately undermining the

Word of God, right? You're just talking about human error human error like word spelling spelling errors

Missing the article or adding extra article. I mean in fact most of the two hundred thousand

Variants ninety eight percent of those variants are dealing with dealing with Not untranslatable.

You cannot translate those into as you translate the way you translate them into the into the

English If it just be spelling errors, or it'd be missing of a word or the word order if it's

Jesus Christ or Christ Jesus so ninety -eight percent of the two hundred thousand or variants of such nature

And they really have no great significance as to the outcome or what the passages are teaching.

Am I correct? That's correct. That's one of the goals of the book is to show that only two percent

You know at ninety -eight ninety -eight percent of those variants have little to no

Translatable Consequences, but of the two percent is only like five percent of the two percent that have any theological

Importance and even when you look at those theological importance none of the major doctrines are ever right

Okay So can we get back then to our definition then of the textual criticism because I just wanted people to know

We're not talking necessarily about Deliberately undermining the text, but we're trying to find out what the original text said

Right. It's reconstructing seeking it look at all the manuscripts we have and seeking to take that and If you would look and Reconstruct the best that we can the original text of the of the original authors

Now isn't it true we were going we were both talking about part airmen before the agnostic who is one of the greatest champions of Bringing doubt in the minds of people regarding the reliability of the scriptures

Didn't he even I'm almost positive that during a debate with dr. White who wrote an endorsement for your book?

Didn't he concede that in? The world of books of antiquity that the

Bible is actually more Reliable in the

Certainty that what we have today is very close to what the originals were

I mean when you compare the variance in text with secular works and so on That's right.

Yeah, like the writings of Levy who was lived between 59

BC to 17 something 80 The closest we can go back to him is 400 years and we only have 27

Manuscripts, but the earliest is 400 years after his life In fact, if you look at all the ancient writings, you're looking at 400 450 some sometimes 700 years removed

And you get to the New Testament which the New Testament is written between 33 to 95

AD and we have some manuscripts that might even go in to 50 years removed and And they go all the way up to the 14th century and we have 70 57 to 58 hundred of them and Not counting the 10 ,000

Latin manuscripts that we have. So it's it's the New Testament has more contextual evidence than any other ancient document imaginable

Yeah now Is it true that? our brethren in Christ Who we would disagree with on a very major issue and who?

And the issue is something that they would disagree with us on as well In fact might even tend to vilify us greatly

But our brother in Christ who are in the camp known as King James only now obviously

King James only ism is a wide spectrum of includes a wide spectrum of people because you have sane sound rational even some brilliant people who are blessings to the body of Christ who

Believe that the King James Version is a superior translation and their denominations have

A view that that is the translation they use exclusively from their pulpits and so on But then you have all the way on the other end of the spectrum people who are raving lunatics who who are really heretics in the true sense of the word because they are seeking to cause derision and In the church and and all kinds of Division and slander and And even calling into question the

Word of God itself But but isn't that? Movement that would be on the opposite end in many respects to the liberals within the higher textual criticism aren't they sometimes really

Unwittingly playing into their hands and up actually helping their cause But they're bringing doubts into the manuscripts that they reject

Yeah, they are that that's one of my arguments and one of the things I've tried to To show my book is

I have many friends that are you know in the camp of King James only Some of them are are

Solidly it's subtly in that some of them are just lodges prefer the King James, but the thing that I want to make sure people understand

The debate the real debate between the King James and the modern version If you really want to debate it from a scholarship standpoint

You have to look at the at the various at the manuscript level And not just on the transistors.

There's two things to consider that you have the translation which is which is a better Translation and I think there are some principles of translation.

That's one debate Another debate is what are the best manuscripts right when you get into that debate?

Which manuscript should we trust your two major textual families? And you have the the visiting textual family

Which is the King James is based on then you have the Alexander in textual family, which is what many of the modern?

Texts are based on and what I want to show is that that both textual families

Are faithful not just there's one that's if you if we I think we can say that maybe the

Alexander in it is a little more trustworthy a little more faithful But but even saying that we're not undermining the visiting textual family

In fact, I think both families testify of the faithfulness of the other family

And so we can we can use all the manuscripts. I know there are some manuscripts that we would want to reject but But of the

Alexander and visiting I think we're looking at still 98 % of agreement

Yes, yes on those families Without you use the word faithfulness. I Might as well bring the names up because they're gonna come up sooner or later in the next couple hours

But I have never heard so much vindictive negative press as I have against Westcott and Hort and I started reading their book the

New Testament in the original Greek and I you know confess I have not finished the book yet. It's not exactly an armchair book, but it at least gave me an awareness just the enormity of the job before them what they were actually trying to accomplish and the

Difficulty that they faced doing it and you know, I think they did a remarkable job considering things and they certainly

Were a lot more careful I think with the text than a lot of people gave him credit for being

Yeah, I think they're just living they they were doing pioneer work that and we have to be thankful for How they they move the textual criticism the science of textual criticism along for the rest of us

And of course, I think we've improved upon the text since then greatly. However, it's not like we should

Vilify them because they were working and they were doing things. I Think it's still you think

King James only is Is strong now. I imagine it was just a huge stronghold back in that day and and so they were having to fight against a lot of Of Sentimentalism to the

King James More so than we I think even today All right.

We have to go to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question For our guests today on textual criticism our guest pastor

Jeff Johnson Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages I'm James White of Alpha Omega ministries

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I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ Hi, I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church We are a reformed

Baptist Church when we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689. We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts We strive to reflect

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Than how men view these things that's not the best recipe for popularity But since that wasn't the

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Welcome back This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in our guest today is pastor Jeffrey D Johnson And we have him on the air for both hours today

We are discussing his book on textual criticism right now Which is called behind the

Bible a primer in New Testament textual criticism the second hour We will have a continued discussion on his other book the church why bother the nature purpose and functions of the local church if you'd like to join us on the air with a

Question our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

and my co -host again in the studio today is Reverend buzz Taylor. And by the way

Pastor Jeff just a little tip for I should have told you this before but during the station breaks You might want to put your phone on mute because it sounds like you're working on a construction site

It's because of the way the sound is amplified over the phone I guess And Before I go back into the discussion, well,

I guess this is actually a part of the discussion Reverend buzz Taylor. Why did you? beam with glee when you heard that we were discussing textual criticism today you seem to be more

Enthusiastic about that than anything we've ever addressed on this program. Well, it's because it's a subject that well, first of all,

I What in my first pastorate back in New York State I I had a couple guys in town with me that would visit my church every once in a while and they

Wanted to be a part of what I was doing there, but they couldn't because I wasn't using the King James Version One guy his license plate was a v 1611 and the other guy stamped as male.

The King James is the Word of God so, you know This is a subject that I was concerned about many years ago

In fact, I had done some research and had considered writing on the subject myself But then

I got to thinking well, there's so many other good books out there that I might be better off choosing other subjects, but it's been an interest of mine ever since then and the reason that you saw the glee a moment ago is because right after we were talking about this our ad for the

American Standard Bible came on. Oh, yes And that's actually my

Translation of preference. I'm going to take a deep breath and ask you Jeff. What is your translation of preference?

Interviews over interviews over I I'm glad you brought that up though seriously because that that Bible has suddenly become so popular and of course, it's

Most the time I did my research into the whole issue of versions and all that stuff was years ago

So my information is very old. In fact, there was no ESV at that time. So But I've seen it.

Yes, there was it was the revised standard, okay? But I've seen it grow in Popularity, especially in reformed churches, and I know nothing about it

I tried to use it for a little bit and I just found it was not quite as Fluent there.

So I'd say flowing as I had hoped it would be in modern English, but Can you tell us something about the

ESV? Since crossway is not paying for this program. Just keep it keep it short

I Do believe the ESV is still most accurate translation and I never prepare a sermon without You know,

I look at the NASB because it's still I think is especially if you're going to do some major Bible study you definitely want the

NASB handy the ESV the reason I Use it is

I do think it's it's a faithful version. It's not a paraphrase I don't believe it's a paraphrase.

I believe it's still faithful literal version and I do think it's pretty readable. I know it's gone through since its early days

It's a little it's a little better. Even its latest edition is better than its first edition.

So they're constantly going back and they are seeking to make a very accurate translation and but um

The main reason I preach from it is One is

I believe it's a trustworthy version to Like you said most of people in the pew have it and I think it's very important to preach if you're preaching line -by -line

Verse by verse. I think it's helpful for the people to be looking at the same text

Yes, and and so that was one of the big considerations. I wouldn't have done it just for popularity sake

When I chose the NIV or some other version on popularity sake, you know

It is a very popular version and it's it's something I feel it's very it's trustworthy as well

Well what I meant when I said I didn't like the the flow of the language as much I was trying to use it primarily for radio for recording texts for radio and and It was just a lot of things where I was because it was so fluent so fluid

So I say I was expecting certain things and it didn't go, you know The grammar and everything wasn't exactly what

I was expecting So I had to really concentrate to get it right as opposed to others you know, of course,

I have the same trouble with the NIV which I wouldn't even want to touch anymore, but Might be the fluidness or lack thereof is because it just wasn't a translation you were used to that's that's entirely possible

But I was curious about its sudden acceptance and but you are telling me of course you use it

So you're saying it is a very reliable translation then as far as I mean

I I'm not I know a little bit of Hebrew enough to get me in trouble Right, but when it comes to the

Greek, you know, I'll look at look and there's some times You know, there's some times up. I don't agree with the translation, you know there's times that I'm like I think and they're they're taking liberties and there

I feel like they're giving it a In fact, I usually I agree with the way they interpret it

But it's like they're interpreting it and we have to remember all translation has a degree of interpretation.

Oh, yes we'd love to say that's not true, but There you can't go

From a translation to another translation without seeking to understand the context of the words that is put in the original

So sometimes I feel like they may be taking a little bit more liberty in translating it

Yeah, and I may even agree with the way they do it But I think if you're going to be accurate with the text you leave the in ambiguity in the translation

And allow the interpreter the reader to make that judgment call, right? Well, you know even the original translators to the

King James Version said that they that are wise would rather have their conscience at Liberty Between you know to rather than to be stuck to one when it might be the other, you know, but right so, you know

They they understood this and of course what people don't realize also is that even the King James Version took a lot of liberties?

Because they wanted certain, you know prose they wanted certain Cadences at the ends of their sentences and you know for that structure sometimes they would choose a word that might not have been the best

Translating word, but the right number of syllables and did they not did they not leave in?

Transliterations rather than provide English translations because they wanted to preserve peace within Anglican Well, we're not going to go into that subject because I'm a

Presbyterian Yes, I know obviously you're gonna lose every time with that that subject, but it's true, isn't it?

John Quincy Adams has a book out there Baptist oral reformers and he

He'll make that case with the word baptism And he thinks that should be translated

Well, I mean, it's not just that I mean that even using the word Bishop and there were other things in this in the in the

King James translation that they were the words were carefully picked to align more with Anglican polity and and Theology were they not

I mean, isn't that why they didn't They didn't provide clearer

English translations for some certain words That would be a question that I may

I may not have a scholarship to answer precisely truthfully, um, okay

That's okay, but going back to our King James only friends I find it interesting that I'm not trying to parse my words carefully

There seems to be a great similarity between the way that they defend the

King James translation and how Muslims defend the

Quran in that We know from history that that all of the earlier versions of the

Quran were destroyed and Therefore you you don't have the diversity of manuscript evidence that you do with the

New Testament and You have King James only advocates who seem to be

Putting forth the notion that any time that you have any question mark

Where where where you where you have to dig and study and compare you you are denying the inerrancy and the reliability of the scriptures and therefore

It's obvious that many of them if they had the ability and power they would destroy every other

Translation and every other Manuscripts that that existed

And why don't you share with our listeners? First of all, what are the manuscripts that the King James Version is based on?

They're based on the visiting textual family and Which is the majority of the text that we have our business team, but but with that said they're not as old

Our agent as the Alexander and textual family Which the Alexander text family will date back even even to the 2nd century and Many are in the 3rd and 4th century where the visiting textual family earliest you can go is to the 4th or 5th century is the earliest one that they have and many of those are

Maybe most most of those even though it's the majority or you're looking at 12 13 14

Manuscripts, would you agree though with my assessment that there seems to be a similarity not only not only with the

King James only us and the Muslims in the way that they defend the

Quran, but even in a weird way, they're all in agreement with the liberals Because the liberals say that we can't trust the

New Testament because of these differences and so on Yeah, it's a naive understanding of the preservation of scriptures.

And it's it's this that if there's not this This Transference, I mean it's like if we had copy machines back in the day and they were able to make photocopies

It would have been really nice And you know,

I had a hard drive you can save this on it we would expect greater preservation integrity

But we have to remember that And this is where I think the King James only

Advocates. I mean, I don't know if they're not aware of this or they're blind to this or they choose not to Take note of this

They have to realize that That if you take all these manuscripts that we have in the

New Testament Yeah, they're they're over two hundred thousand different variants. Of course. I've already admitted that they're spelling errors

We already admitted that you know I think 75 % of them are spelling which which is not consequential when it comes to the meaning of the text and then the other 25 % of them are dealing with most of them are doing with word order, you know, and which are still not major issues

However, the King James only advocates have this kind of almost naive assumption

Like God's preserved the text Almost with that almost like a photocopy type process where there's if there is any form of Errors if you would are a variant that would jeopardize the preservation of it altogether and and so Usually what if I run into someone and when

I have run into those who are King James only What they'll do though, they'll read the King James then they'll put out another version.

Is it look it doesn't agree with the King James It's wrong. So they're making the

King James as the kind of a standard and And and so if it's there's not a perfect match and and and they don't even think to think well

Maybe I should look at the King James and go back to the original language and see how well the King James actually

Translated this text. I made a mistake of doing that once when I saw a I'll tell you what it was

It was comparing the King James version to the Living Bible of all things. I mean Please understand.

I never called the Living Bible a Bible. Okay, it's a Bible paraphrase, you know and I certainly do not recommend it before use as a

Bible, but In the particular passages that this guy picked out the

Living Bible I believe actually had a lot more accurate than the King James version did That was a shock to me

That's that and that was a lot of what really led me into the whole issue was the fact that I I read that one

It's like wait, what's what's really going on here? You know, I Think I don't know what we need to do on our side is because I mean this would undermine our argument as well

But what they'll say one of the chief arguments the King James only Advocates make is like well for many years in English the

King James was the only Translation and therefore it has to be a reliable trustworthy

We can be certain that it is a trustworthy because of God's promise to preserve his word And this was what we had for the only one we had for a hundred -year period

Therefore we can know that this is God's Word. Well, I think that's a legitimate argument in this in this sense

I do think the King James is the Word of God, but I think the ESV and the NASB and other

Translations are also the Word of God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, neither is it the same King James version?

It's not the 1611 it's primarily 1769 or something like that that we have today and this is what's encouraging for the average person in the pew that doesn't know the original language and it's like Can I even trust the

Bible that I have? I'm hearing all this How do I sort all this out? we have the encouraging thing we need to remember for the layman is that the

Lord Jesus used a translation himself the Septuagint and it which was a translation of the

Hebrew Bible and He utilized that and when we compare the

Septuagint to the Hebrew text There are some variants if you would there are some translation liberties

But look the Lord used that and he used the translation and he spoke from the translation as a authoritative

Word of God Yeah, and I'm not saying we we shouldn't get back to the sources All right We ought to go back to the sources and be very scholarly in our research on these things

But for the person that doesn't know the language and they could still trust these I wouldn't they trust every translation

Living the Living Bible and even the NIV to me is Is okay to reference

I wouldn't want to preach from it, right? But even that we can trust that we have

The authority. Yeah, we have the word go even as you mentioned the variants and the thousands and thousands of variants

There's not an assumption with what you're saying there that those variants can't be figured out by textual criticism

That's right. That's the variance. It's Like you said most of these spelling errors are easy to correct

The other variants and some of them I think matter like it's if it does the word order it is

Christ Jesus or Jesus Christ We do want to know every words inspired.

We would like to know the order of that but in the end of the day I'm not too concerned if it's Christ Jesus or Jesus Christ The truth is still being conveyed accurately and faithfully yes the thing that's bizarre and I don't even know how they explain the inconsistency that they have

But in regard again to the King James only us the more militant ones

They tend to be although I'm sure there are Pentecostal King James only us they tend to be

Very often vehemently opposed to Pentecostal ism and the charismatic movement they tend to be very much in defense of the idea that the sign gifts and revelation

Cease with the Apostles the passing of the Apostles And therefore it seems bizarre that they

Would hold to a view that would force them if they're going to be logical and consistent

To teach that the Anglican Church in the 17th century was somehow miraculously

Guided by God in a revelatory way where there was no Errors in translation made and so on do you follow what

I'm saying? Yeah, it is strange that they almost have to see that look at the translation of 1611 as they inspired

Text that's really easy to undermine when you look at all the different versions or revisions of the 1611

It's not like anybody reads from the 1611 It's gone through multiple revisions. Yeah, and I may be wrong on this, but the last time

I think Been a long time since I've read the King James version on a regular basis, but I think it still has the word

Easter Yeah, it isn't just that I mean what people don't realize is there never was one

King James Version even since it's it's very First publishing you had it one from Oxford one from Cambridge, wasn't it?

And you had the he and she Bible and the the biggest irony of it all in regard to the more hardcore fundamentalist

Baptist who Embrace the trail of blood theory as to the purity of the

Baptist line going back to John the Baptist and their denial of any connection with the Reformation and their hatred of the

Anglican Church As well as other branches of the Reformation It makes no sense to me that a

King James only as fundamentalist Baptist Would have such a high regard of the Anglican Church when it was executing

Baptists In the same century when the King James Version came out in fact in the same year in 1611 there was a

Baptist executed in London for being a Baptist So so this is just this is bizarre.

I mean, have you ever heard any attempts at defending that or explaining that? No, I haven't and honestly,

I know there are different Levels of King James only there you got some there are more scholarly that Actually, they're not actually arguing about the translation.

They're looking at more. They're more of a Byzantine or Texas Receptive Advocate and so they're not they're not really saying hey that it's the translation that I'm arguing for him

I believe that the Texas Receptive is a more fable text I think that's a different level of scholarship than the average

King James only guy that you would meet on the street But you know, there's more there's more That really you meet those people and it's almost like they

They have no understanding of textual criticism or even the even the original languages themselves and I do

I do want to be quick to say that some of my dearest friends and men that I also even uphold as Modern -day heroes of mine whose writings

I love and so on some of them would be in some shape or form King James only ist or at the very least

King James supremacist for lack of a better term, but the folks like dr.

Joel Beeky of the heritage reforms nomination, they only use the

King James version and David Murray who is a professor at Puritan Reform Theological Seminary, which is a part of that denomination that seminary isn't anyway they

Use the King James only and I've come to know and love a number of the brethren within the free

Presbyterian Church of Ulster and free Presbyterian Church of North America Who only used the

King James version and some of these men have preached from the pulpit at my former church in?

New York and although we did not hold to a King James only position by any stretch of the imagination

We didn't even have the King James in our pews But that that just I wanted to make it clear that I'm not just sitting here mocking everybody that right

Because we we have dr. Beeky scheduled to come to our church in 2018 we're looking forward to that and I've been asked to preach in different churches

And they've made it clear that the King James was the pulpit Bible and I'd spend the time to convert my notes all right, and Honor that and I I have

I think the art the King James is a little archaic. It's harder to understand But I still

You think it's a value in a valuable translation. I don't despise it at all Yeah, well before Chris forces us to change the subject of the top of the hour

I mean we can extend this longer. We don't have to we already did the Church why bother so we can cut that a little short

I'm just wondering though if you could spend a few minutes telling us a little bit about how you came to write your book and a

Little bit of breakdown of the the contents of the book Yeah, I'd be glad to Well, it started

About five or six years ago. I had a strong interest in the subject and began to read

All that I could on the topic I Usually when I go through any type of study up I try to find the best books available and I Just start reading and reading and reading and reading and studying.

I just found it fascinating myself and I'm the type of person if I study something

I'm writing even if I'm not trying to publish a book or writing book I'm writing just because it's the nature of my study habits

Yeah, and so I remember Writing this I've talked to it at church

In fact, it was actually a kind of a project that I did for a seminary and I taught it at the seminary

I taught at our church and I put my notes together and I was talking to Mike Gayla she stopped followed around Christian books and we were talking about the church one bother about publishing that book and I said

Well, you know, I got another little manuscript Wasn't even trying to get a publish wasn't even trying to make a thing about writing a book

So but it's yeah, I think it's really close to get ready to could be make a little nice little book

And it would be an entry -level book. It's not a scholarly book It'd be for the layman. It just kind of introduced the subject to people that would like to know more about it

And he said well, I mean, I like to look at it and I send it to him and he says let's publish it

So it that book got published kind of with solid ground Christian books doesn't seem fair Yeah, just by the way of is just a way of process, you know

So that's how it came about But what I do in the book I spend the introduction explaining what textual criticism

Criticism is give a kind of a working definition. I go and spend a whole chapter on how manuscripts are dated

So that's very important to know it's like not all manuscripts should be treated equally

If you have a 14th century manuscript, that's valuable But if you have a second century or third century manuscript,

I would I would trust that I look at that with our Priority than I was it later, right?

So how do we date these manuscripts? What do they? textual scholar What does he do to determine?

the date of these these ancient documents and I go through all the curriculum that they use and show how it is is

It's more than just carbon dating. There's more than just a good estimate. There are legitimate

Criterion that it can be used to date to date these these manuscripts and I show show that I I show the different methods

Of textual criticism. There's two major methods You have the one that Erasmus used with the

Texas Receptus before it was called the Texas Receptus by the way What he would do he would pick a base document he would find that a manuscript that he thought was very trustworthy and he would

He had it the first edition He only had eight other manuscripts and he used one as the base kind of the working one and he used the other eight to help correct the one he's working from and So that's one way of doing it.

That's called the doc documentary Methods and then you have a collectivism worry rather than just working off one

You look at a group of manuscripts and within this method You know you may

You may look at the older manuscripts and give them priority But rather than having just one single manuscript as your base manuscript, you're kind of collectively putting them all together

And that's kind of the modern approach I explained the pros and cons of each approach and then

Did real quick at the end? the last part of the book is a historical account of how

God preserved the New Testament from the apostolic period until our day and show how

Just kind of a historical the history of the Greek text. You have a lot crammed into that very fairly short book

Yeah, but it's all really I mean if you're listeners or if they have this is a topic that's too deep for me

This book is really something that you don't have to have any prior knowledge You can just dive into this book with with no knowledge on the subject.

I think it's great That's why it's called a primer actually Right, right, and we have to go to a break right now if you'd like to join us on the air

We do thank you those of you who are waiting patiently To have your questions asked and answered we will get to you

God willing after this break, but I think we're going to extend this subject a little bit longer Perhaps even the full hour depends on how long the discussion lasts on the textual criticism aspect

But if you'd like to join us on the air as well Our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jeffrey D. Johnson I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study used by pastors scholars and everyday readers

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I Welcome back.

This is Chris orange and if you just tuned us in our guest today is Jeffrey D. Johnson pastor of The what's the name of the church?

Grace Bible Church in Conway, Arkansas. Sorry about that and he is

The author of a couple of books that we're discussing today right now, we're still continuing a discussion on behind the

Bible a primer in New Testament textual criticism and Later on if we have time we'll continue a discussion that we began in February on another book

He wrote the church why bother the nature purpose and functions of the local church? And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and before I go back into the discussion and address some of our listener

Questions. I want to announce that our friends at P &R publishing

Presbyterian and Reform publishing and the alliance of confessing evangelicals are partnering for a pastor's retreat

May 9th through 11th at Harvey Cedars, which is a beautiful Christian conference and retreat center on the

Jersey Shore and the speakers are Dan Doriani and David Powelson both of whom have been a guest on iron sharpens iron

The theme is the faithful shepherd and if you'd like to have more information about this

Pastors retreat May 9th through 11th go to Alliance net org

That's Alliance net org and click on events at the top of the screen and Scroll down.

There are a number of events highlighted, but scroll down to where you see the faithful Shepherd May 9th through 11th.

I also want to remind men in ministry leadership who are either from the

Carlisle, Pennsylvania area, which is South Central Pennsylvania or if you're willing to travel there on Thursday April 28th iron sharpens iron radio is having our spring pastors luncheon at the

Thornwald mansion, which is a gorgeous historic mansion Originally erected in the early 20th century 1909 to be exact and was a place where national politicians

Celebrities and society's elite were lavishly entertained this has been beautifully and recently restored to its original beauty and is the location of our next pastors or Our luncheon for men in ministry leadership.

We're not we're not making it exclusively for pastors But if you are a man in leadership in your church

Or perhaps a power church organization We would love for you to join us absolutely free of charge each pastor is going to be leaving there

With a sack of books you may get a hernia Or be a need of the hernia operation when you leave the building because we have major Publishers from all over the

United States bring your trucks Donating the books for these men of God who will be gathered there including our guest

Jeffrey D. Johnson who is The founder of free grace press he has provided some books for each and every one of our pastors as well and Not to mention some of the other publishers such as solid ground

Christian books Presbyterian and reformed publishing Baker B &H we could go on and on with the number of the generous and gracious Publishers that have provided books for each and every one of the pastors attending this event

So if you'd like to go you're getting a free lunch. Also, everything is free from beginning to end we're also going to have a message from David Wood who is one of the most gifted apologists alive today with a

Specialization in Islamic studies he has debated Muslims all over the world and is a mutual friend of dr.

James R. White who we have mentioned a number of times during this broadcast and Dr. White has a very high regards for David and And I if dr.

White puts his seal of approval on David with regard to Islamic studies Then you know, he must be a man worthy of hearing

And on top of that Stephen Bloom who is Pennsylvania State representative will be giving a brief message to our

Guests and I'm so impressed with Stephen Bloom with his Unwavering commitment to the gospel of Jesus Christ is unashamed public stance in in favor of the scriptures and of his

Christian faith without Backing down or being shy about it he will be speaking to the men as well and I'm hoping that you can join us and you we only have room for about 25 or so pastors left because We have a maximum capacity seating of about a hundred in the area that we are in the mansion

So please email us as soon as you can if you'd like to go at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and As I was saying earlier we are discussing with our guest

Jeffrey D. Johnson his book behind the Bible a primer in New Testament textual criticism and We do have a listener who has submitted a question

Anonymously and This anonymous listener says my pastor says how can you trust?

any Man who pretends to be a Defender of the

Bible and the Word of God and yet will throw out a cherished story like the woman caught in adultery in the gospel of John chapter 8 and If you could comment on that comment or question

Yeah Well, I I take a weird position on that because I do hold that the

Alexandrian text is the more for papal text but There's a reason that Even your modern translations like ESV and ESV.

They still keep that story in the Bible now There's always gonna be a footnote That says this this story those verses are not in the oldest

Manuscripts of most ancient manuscripts. There's always a footnote there and when you go to look at the scholarship and the mouth of manuscripts, it's not in the out, it's not in the to some of the two most trustworthy manuscripts such as the fanatic manuscripts and It's not in that and it's not in the

What's the other other major one I Said I was going to write a book.

I didn't say I did The the old ancient

Translations and so there there is some textual evidence that this is a legitimate story so for me

Personally I I have no issue with that story. I don't have any issue personally with it being authentic our true

Testimony what Christ over a legitimate? Story that happened in the time.

Do you have a problem with those that do believe that it is not? No, not at all.

I can understand why many people would not want to preach Well now as far as that text is concerned though, isn't it also true that it appears in various manuscripts in different section

Yes of the gospel right now, but the problem I think that we're starting out with here as far as answering the question is

Well, just the way the question is worded throwing out Now you you follow that up with saying that it was not in the most ancient manuscripts now, you know, we need to think that cannot be just Ignored that it was not there.

It's not a question of throwing out who threw it out. Then is the question Was it thrown out or was it added in you know that yeah

That's a good good good thing to point out because it's you're you're already assuming the victory of the argument the way you phrase the question

You know, if you throw something out, how do you trust someone who's going out the scriptures? You don't trust anybody throwing out scriptures, but that's not the question like you pointed out if the question is it

Shouldn't be in scriptures. Is there is the question? Yeah, well, this is where the the slander

Occurs when you have King James only advocates Maintaining that I mean with certainty that there is a conspiracy by translators deliberately to Eliminate or obscure or hide truths about the gospel about the person and work of Christ about the

Godhead itself and There is no basis for these

Conspiracy theories at all is there? No. No, it's not. It's it's It's it's based on again using the

King James as the standard, right? You assume that's the standard than anything that's that different from the standard obviously is a corruption, right?

But it's starting on the wrong premise that the King James is not the standard Let's get back to the original text, right?

Let's get back to the manuscripts and let's go back and see which manuscripts are the most trustworthy And so that's what textual criticism is seeking to do.

It's not just Bluntly accepting a translation and saying okay, this has to be the standard that that's kind of a

I think the Basic problem with such an argument now the way that and perhaps you could critique my analogy that I tried to use or Comment on it, but the way that I have tried to explain that to people is

I have said let's say for lack of better argument that a miracle occurs and Chris Arnzen Does a

English translation of the Bible and I put in John 3 16

That in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God You don't mean

John 3 16 what in John 3 16? That's what I mean the Gospel of John. I Mean, that's what

I was saying. Okay, didn't I say John 3 16? Yeah, but you're quoting John 1. Oh, I'm sorry

Right, right He's undermining the word what can

I say? Yeah, John John 1 is right and and I say in the beginning of the

Was the Word in the words of with God and the Word was God and then I in my translation

I have and The Word was the second person of the

Holy Trinity Now that obviously even a King James advocate King James only advocate would recognize that isn't in there at all

What are you talking about? But then another miracle occurs and for the next hundred years if post -millennialism is true, and we survive for another hundred years

This becomes the most popular Version of the Bible and then when people go back to the manuscripts and they say wait a minute this sentence here

That The Word was the second person of the Holy Trinity That isn't in there and they take it out.

Then people say wait a minute. This person is anti -trinitarian this or this group of of textural critics are anti -trinitarian they're taking out this beloved passage that The second the word is the second person of the

Holy Trinity now Isn't that somewhat what we have here in comparison with the King James advocates

King James only advocate? Is exactly what happened? Yes, you're you're explaining what did happen in the heavenly witness passage in 1st

John whether we are three or bear witness the Father Son of the Holy Spirit. That's obviously a very

Wonderful statement and it's there. I think it's a true statement. There is a Trinity that bears witness

But it's just not pinned by the Apostle John it's been added in there and And it happened by Erasmus, you know, it was in the old

And that the Vulgate not in the old Latin versions, but in the

Vulgate that was in there and and the Latin Vulgate was toxic it was like the

King James of the Of the Reformation period it was like this is the standard trustworthy edition of the scriptures and and here

Erasmus is providing a critical text and He produces one and he leaves that verse out because it's not in any

Greek manuscript that he has and He leaves it out and there's a parade. He's like, okay

You don't believe in the Trinity. It's kind of the same argument and he basically said if you can find one manuscript

Just one that has that in their Greek manuscript. I'll add it When you behold they found one

The ink was still wet on it though Well, of course the assumption there is that there's this deliberate

As Chris alluded to it, you know conspiracy theories abound on this stuff that there's a deliberate move to Undermine the

Word of God and you know, I've heard things say, you know, people tell me that the New American Standard Bible publishers have

Deliberately tried to expunge the deity of Christ. Well, you know if they really were trying to do that you gotta

They were the most I Don't they did a terrible terrible job because they left it in so many places

Yeah, they they're not very good at what they're doing. Yeah. Yeah, you're right Yeah, the the charge him with the motive that being deliberate is it shows the it's it's

Kind of a ad homily argument. Yes, we do. That's what they've done with with Horton board

Exactly they begin to attack the person the character and yes That's why I was mentioning earlier

If people want to criticize Westcott and Hort they should at least first read their book instead of the the comic books

Yeah, I've written about them Right. So do you look at the look at the evidence look at the evidence not not the people themselves

So do you think I should continue using that analogy? Is there flaws in that analogy or is that a reasonable analogy as long as well?

That would be a big miracle It's a reasonable analogy because it's actually what did happen

That's what happened with a wrath of this and yes, and that's why the King James has this You know, it has this is in the third edition of wrath of myth

He took it out his conscious got a hold of him in the fourth He took it out because he knew it wasn't in the original.

He took it out, but it was the third edition that got carried forth and And so we can know with certainty that that verse is not in in the original text

There it is. It's it's been added to the you know, the Texas Receptus and it well

I can even use my flub and say that in the arms and translation For God's whole of the world that he gave his only begotten son the second person of the

Holy Trinity That's a whoever believed in sex etc and then then a hundred years later that is the the most beloved

Version and then people find out wait a minute. This whole sentence of the

Trinity is incorrect. Well now you just brought up twice now the words

Texas Receptus, so could you please tell us a little bit about the Texas Receptus?

Not only the The man's new the text itself, but the title that means received text, right?

Yeah, yeah, but I'm gonna get a little bit more than that. Of course. I asked questions.

I don't answer Texas Receptus is the critical text and it was someone not even viewed as a critical text

But it's the text that that began by Erasmus translation. He in this

I think it was 1509 He Produced he used the manuscript

Like I said He took eight of the other manuscripts that you could find locally and he began to correct to correct the manuscript that he had

But these other Greek manuscripts and by the way, if we haven't we may have should explain this Earlier, but the word manuscript is something that is handwritten a text that wasn't photocopied but it was written by hand and he would take these handwritten text and Seek to correct the base text that he was using and and then that was his first edition

It went through I think nine additions in his own lifetime and after him come

Theodore Biza Who was John Calvin's successor and Biza picked up? Erasmus work and began to make more

And Corrections if you would or additions to the critical text the

Greek New Testament text and Then after Biza was done. There is a man named

Stephanos who came and he's the one Stephanos is Noteworthy because he's the one that added verses verse divisions in the text

We have him to be thankful for but somewhere in the middle of his life where he was working on it

Might have been the seventh or eighth a Edition that he was working on don't quote me on what edition it was but one edition in the preface

It was written now We have after all these years is about 50 60 years since Erasmus after all this work has been put in it now we have the received text of the text that we believe is is

Faithful to the original we have that received text and so for that reason

The Texas receptus or the received text went through additional if you would

Additional additions and corrections. It's not like they quit working on it

But it that term received text stuck and to this day

The work that began with Erasmus that was carried on And in that is the that the

Greek text that the King James translators Utilized in their translation.

And so the people who are King James only are You know, obviously going to go back for the

Texas receptus is the is the most faithful text and what

Westcott and Hort did is rather than just Assume that the

Texas receptus was The most faithful product that could be produced. They they looked in some of these newly discovered manuscripts that Erasmus and visa did not possess

They did not even know about them and I can almost assuredly assure people that if Erasmus had these manuscripts

He would have referred to them and looked at them and utilized them but he didn't have access to them and it only makes sense as as More manuscripts are uncovered on earth

Discovered and have we have access to them I think we should utilize all the manuscripts that we have access to and and so that's what

Westcott Horton did and it kind of broke the ground that kind of obviously, they were Not well received because they were going right well to use the term

Texas receptus then would be the same in in Chris's Hypothetical translation here if in his original preface to the arms in translation

He said now we have the received translation and that becomes the name of the

Bible then the to receive translation Isn't it something like that? I prefer arms in translation This is universally received by the church at large

The church is utilizing this text and in no doubt that was true The church by and large was was making their translations, you know, the

King James wasn't the only translation of that that day Multiple translations were early on work that the great

Bible the Geneva Bible, right? Well, and then we're all using the received text as their base

Greek text including 1901 as far as 1901 at least right as far as 1901.

Yeah, that's right By the way, our anonymous listener if you give us your full mailing address

You're going to receive a free copy of behind the Bible a primer in New Testament textual criticism by our guest

Jeffrey D. Johnson and we assure you we're not going to expose you on the air Just give us your full mailing address so we could ship you out

The book and we do have another listener We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Who wants to know what problems do you have with the latest edition of the new international version when

Renowned reform scholar da Carson has done a study Bible using it

Yeah It's hard for me to answer that because I have I'm going to just I would surrender to the scholarship of the ace

Carson So it's hard for me to Do you know anything about the the hysteria that was caused over gender -neutral

Changes in the NIV somebody was telling me who was not a liberal it by any stretch of the imagination

That they weren't changing Words that were exclusively male in the original languages they were just turning

Words that could be used to mean people that used as meaning people rather than men

They were they were changing those Those terms, I mean,

I don't know if you're familiar enough with the NIV's Yeah, I'm really not. I mean, I remember a couple years ago when that was the big topic of controversy and I even bought being

Grudem's book on that and and look at it a little bit.

Obviously, uh, I Wish I knew more on that to answer that more.

I mean waiting what position in Wayne Grudem hold Well, he was advocating.

He's advocating that we we don't do that. And so we don't change the we keep we keep the

The male People with the text right and that would be my position too.

I mean obviously When the Bible says men, it does refer to mankind and it can reckon that includes women and we don't deny that But my goal if I'm a translator and even a pastor my goal is to be faithful with the text

Yes And now there are there are going to be some cases where you have to explain the text and they're going to be some

Idioms that no longer are easily identified in our culture, but I don't think we change the idioms to fit our modern -day idioms

I think we'd leave them to the culture that that it's the faithful translate the text as faithfully as we can to the original and And even if it's not about trying to undermine

Any theological position even the translation, you know, even if the a Carson said we're not trying to undermine

That that God is male and male has a Headship position in the family even if they said we're not trying to undermine theology

I still think we have to be faithful to the text as a translation and that would be where I would really question the

Faithfulness of the translation that you might be that does this right? No, I think some of the the the question

Was directed to me since I'm the one that made the disparaging comment about the NIV earlier So, let me just explain in fact, if you could explain it after the break as we have our final break, okay

And if you'd like to join us on the air, we do have a few more people waiting to have their questions asked and answered

So we apologize for making you wait so long but hang in there And if you'd like to join them now is the time to shoot that email out because it's already 530

We only got about 28 minutes left The email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jeffrey D Johnson attention coin collectors and investors

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That's the private story Welcome back.

This is Chris Sarnes. And if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes We have been discussing behind the

Bible a primer in New Testament textual criticism with our guest the author of that book Jeffrey D.

Johnson, and we're going to continue that discussion rather than revisit the church. Why bother we can

Return to the church. Why bother at another time? And by the way, that's no reflection on the theme of the church

Why bother as if why bother? This first Topic really seems to be keeping a good pace here and we've already addressed the church.

Why bother? We'll return to it at some point. But buzz Reverend buzz you had a question

Yeah, well, there was the question that was aimed at why would we be against the NIV? That your listener sent in and I made the the comments earlier against it

So I figured I better at least explain what I meant by that For when

I was talking about the I alluded to the fact that I was thinking of the gender neutrality of the

More recent editions of the NIV when I said that, you know, I wouldn't want to use it

But let me just say even that anytime you have a translation of the Word of God Where it's an agreement with?

The Word of God it is the Word of God You know, I will not say that the

NIV is not the Word of God people can Come to Christ using the NIV the

Spirit of God certainly can use that But when I was talking about the the flow of the

NIV I was talking primarily again from the standpoint of trying to use it for radio Where one of my goals is to try to read the scriptures, but not sound like I'm reading

I found even the NIV slightly stilted in some of the English to where I could not read it

Like I wasn't reading, you know I'd say so that was just a little bit was a flop that was strictly because of the job that I was doing but also,

I had the experience years ago and I'm sure our guest Jeff Johnson can can relate to this because He's using the

ESV right now. And yet he says he still confronts or not confronts Consults with the

New American Standard when he's preparing his messages as a pastor doing expository preaching

Oh, I was very concerned about original intent. And the first thing I tried to answer about any text is what does it say?

Before I ever got on to what does it mean or what do I do about it? So I was dealing with the the text specifically and I just I tried to use the

NIV for a while because I had just spent a year working for Teen Challenge at that time and Just about every church

I visited which was you know, 130 some churches that year That's what people had on their laps was the

NIV so I figured yeah Well, I'm gonna use what's on their laps and right more and more evangelistic type preaching where great the stories were the same you know, no problem, but when

I tried to use it in the intricacies of Exposing a text. I just didn't like it as much

I spent too much time Correcting the text but some of that was because just the nature of the

NIV It's a phrase -by -phrase translation instead of a word -by -word translation Well when you're dealing with the words, you don't want a phrase -by -phrase translation so that Exposition of the text if you're not you're trying to get the thought you're trying to break down the thought which requires you get into the words

Exactly and I just found that You know, I went back to the new American Standard and so it wasn't that I'm anti NIV.

Okay, it's just it wasn't What I was looking for at that time and I'd much prefer the accuracy of the new

American Standard You just redeemed yourself and you will be coming back as our co -host. Okay good We do have another listener in Clinton Township Michigan although the first half of the city he lives in gives me the creeps the

Clinton Township My apologies the citizens of Clinton Township Or should

I say my condolences? Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan says

Greetings all I was taught by several pastors and Bible teachers that Westcott and Hort were not to be trusted in that they denied

The resurrection is this true? Do you know if that's true

Jeff? I don't know if that's true or not. I know Personally, you know the Westcott Hort What what there is a red flag

I have about them not that I think there I think we have to look at their Work and not just criticize them as people

But one of the things that the presuppositions that they carried into Into their studies if I remember right, this is five years ago when

I when I studied them indefinitely Is that they did not believe?

The Texas Receptus was was an accurate representation of the text and I think it is and so I think they had a presupposition that that I Wouldn't call them them to be all together to what would consider liberal scholarship of liberals

But I don't think Westcott Hort would be in the conservative camp that you and I would be in I don't think

Westcott Hort were all together evangelical conservatives Now I do think that they were experts in their field and I think they broke they broke ground that was necessary to be broken and and in God used them in a in a very important way, so I I'm on that when

I when I hear discussions on Westcott Hort I'm the right try to be hopefully balanced because there are some that vilify them

Unnecessarily and discredit everything they've done and there's others that you know that not so much today

But there's others that may have looked at their at their text and say, you know

They were dead on but even your textual scholars today Even Bruce Metzger who's gone on to be with the

Lord Even Metzger would look at Westcott Hort and in he and he would even admit that we have come

In a progressive good way. We've come farther than they did and and even the textual

Texts that we're using today Nestle Allen edition Is a much improved edition than what was?

Oh What caught the Hort did back in the 1900s?

wasn't Bruce Metzger even Bart Ehrman's Mentor when Bart Ehrman was a professing evangelical.

That's right. That's right. And that's why Bruce Metzger would say about Herman Herman, he said he knows better Much of the criticism that he levied against the

Bible the New Testament. Mm -hmm Metzger says, you know, this is a man that that Knows better than his own

Arguments and so which is pretty amazing. I think what we need to understand here too, though, is that You know, we're not called to be the average layman is not called to be a textural critic leave that for the professionals

You know, we're not here to say, you know Westcott and Hort versus Erasmus we're called to be doers of the word and you know, the

Unfortunately, most of the arguments that I've heard have been for people who you know like one in particular was

Wrote a whole book to blast the New American Standard Bible And he said it had the seal of the Roman Catholic Church and he went on and on and suddenly

I donned on me He was talking about the New American Bible not the New American Standard Bible, but you know that I mean

So we're not talking about the brightest lights in in the house here, you know in many cases, right?

So we need to remember, you know We have the Word of God preserved and I think that's the whole point that we're even discussing this issue is there is a

An art and science called textual criticism and it works We do figure out the

Word of God what it actually says and that's what we're accountable to it's the message from God to our hearts All right

And now that buzzes undermined the sales of your book behind the Bible a primary new text

Testament textual criticism. Why don't you explain why this is a useful book for the average person?

Yeah, I can be honestly. It's one of those books. I've written five books now and it's

It's the book that people are least interested in and it's kind of sad because people look at the word textual criticism

Which is in the title and I go all of them. Yeah, that's I don't want to I don't want anything to do with that We don't criticize anymore

So maybe I if I ever redo it the title needs to be changed because Because of the phrase textual criticism puts people off but the reason why it's really

I think a important book for the layman because it it gives even the average

Christian a The confidence and that was the goal is to provide confidence

That we do have God's Word that God has preserved his word and that's what the bulk of the book is the historical the historical preservation of the scriptures to show how

You know how got what God used and the means that God used to keep his word

Alive throughout the generations and and not only is it just fascinating and interesting

But in the end it's meant to be a book that causes people say hey, I have God's Word Yes, and that's where it's important and that's where the rubber meets the road is can

I have faith in God's Word and the answer is Yes The answer is without a doubt that with God has kept his word

Pure and we can trust it and in the different Trustworthy versions now what the book doesn't do it doesn't get into the different Methods of translation that's for other books to handle people which translation do

I need? This is books not going to answer that question what translation should I use it's going to show that God has kept the

Greek New Testament faithful throughout the generations and By the way,

Jeff from Clinton Township, Michigan You're getting a free copy of behind the Bible a primer in New Testament textual criticism compliments of our guest pastor

Jeffrey D Johnson and free grace press and we have Christopher in Suffolk County Long Island who wants to know

Do you know anything about the charge by King James only is That there was a lesbian involved in the translation of the

New American Standard Bible No, I don't know I thought it was the

NIV now, it's the New American Standard In fact, it was the NIV and it what was the

I've heard this explanation from Dr. White and others that it was somebody involved in the choice of fonts or something, right?

it was something that had nothing to do with the content of the Scriptures at all, you know, there was nothing the message or the wording or anything like that was not

She was not in any way involved in that type of a role, right? Yeah as far as the English translation

Well the book that I'm not going to write Because because Jeff Johnson and James White have written excellent books with One of the things that I was one of the angles

I was coming at More than I've seen in the other course. I haven't read them so I can't really say that but I believe we have to be fair in our accusations because people blame those who are involved in anything other than the

King James Version with things that they would not Things that they find intolerable that if they were to look closer to home, you know

I would not criticize Westcott and Hort without first looking into Erasmus, you know, there's

Yes Brilliant Roman Catholic, but he was a Roman Catholic, right?

You can you can find flaws with anybody you can find, you know youthful speculations

You can look for the dirt on anybody but at least be fair and you know, like, you know

Well, they were a little bit, you know shoddy on their word choosing well, you know There were places where the King means for translators might have been a little bit shoddy also

So, you know, let's just you know, like Jesus would have us to do let's operate, you know, judging by the same standards and also

King James only is in very weak position to make a claim about the

NIV being corrupt because of a person Involved in the in the committee or company who was a lesbian when

King James himself Has a very questionable moral character So I think it was terrible to name the

Bible after him. But anyway Yeah, it's the whole thing is very ironic and But I really want to make sure before the time just flies

Bias before I go back to a couple more listener questions Jeff. I want to make sure that you

Left our listeners with the primary things that you want etched in their hearts and minds regarding your book today

Yeah, I think the main thing is what I said earlier is it if you're If you just want to know a little bit more about this and you say hey

What makes my book unique from the other books are out there back? There are many good books out there and that would even say there are better books out there on the subject a lot better than this

But what my book does that the other ones don't do is I assume that the reader knows nothing of the subject and so if you're out there and you just want a basic knowledge a introductory knowledge of The topic this book will give you a good introduction.

It's a very short easy book to read you can read it in two hours and And and then you you can go from there if you want to know more then you can pick up some of the other books

That I referenced within the book look at some of the footnotes of hey I want to know more about this where there are other books that are going to give you more in -depth study on the subject

But by then you already have to be familiar with the terms you'll you won't have to look up in your dictionary

What is he saying? I do that for you I break down the jargon if you would the technical terms break that down for you

And then you can go from there into a deeper study if you like or you can be content I think this gives me it what

I need to know to be To answer most common objections that I'm going to hear

CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York wants to know how important do you think it is for the average

Christian to have? any knowledge of Greek and Hebrew well,

I Said this to some students that I've taught before I would prefer

Someone knows his English Bible up and down Then someone who just barely knows

Greek and doesn't know his Bible at all for instance my father is a pastor of 40 years been pastoring and and he breathes the

Bible so much that You could just almost he's like a living Bible He just starts quoting it is in any place and just quotes large sections of it and it really what makes any

What makes you understand the scriptures is context context context and any translator has to translate by looking at the context of the words, you know, you look at a lexicon and it gives you the meaning of these

Greek words or the person writing the lexicon is deriving the meaning of the words by the context in which the words are placed and So with that said if I was a translator and I can only translating a sentence

I'm not going to be very good But what makes a translation trustworthy or something that we can be certain that we have the

Word of God is the fact It's not translating just one or two words or one or two sentences It's translating the words in the context of the other words in context of the

Senate in context of the paragraph in context of the book and it's the whole context that gives us a better understanding of the details and so The average

Christian that does not know the original language can still have a very very solid understanding of the

Bible Because of a full understanding of the context, however, like my

Greek Teacher told me Greek is like underwear He said this in the preaching class

Greek is like underwear. It adds a lot of support, but you don't want it to be seen You Don't have to Greek says that you can just use that you can use the

Greek to support things I are another way to look at I think that the original language that Hebrew and Greek Adds color.

It's like going from a black and white television to a color television It has a little clarity, but you still can get the meaning of the text in black and white

Oh, yes, but if you can study the originals I would really encourage you to do so and of course just a very basic knowledge of Greek Opens up a world of English helps to you

Well, I can tell you this. I learned English by studying Greek Didn't really pay attention to grammar when

I was in high school. I started studying Greek. I was like, okay Here's what a verb is is what a noun is yourself? You know, here's how language works and like I had to learn how language works by studying

Studying Greek. Yeah. Well, there are a number of really fantastic English helps to do that Especially based now that they base them on the

Strong's numbering system It's very easy to look up Greek words but I'm saying if you have a basic knowledge of Greek you can use

Greek dictionaries and things like that because You open up that world of Helps to you.

It sure does. We have a listener Christian in Carlisle, Pennsylvania Who asks

Isn't it strange that the King James only is that our anti Calvinist are defending a

Bible when the majority of the? Translators themselves were Calvinist. Is that true?

I'm not a hundred percent certain of that Is that we're not certain of that too, but I wouldn't be surprised

I couldn't speak with certainty, you know There's always gonna be a listener. It's gonna look up what I say So I can't say was with certainty, but I wouldn't be surprised of that because during that period

Although there were some Armenians in that and that day, you know It Calvinism wasn't something that was a minor.

I mean it was a pretty predominant teaching. Yes, and and Thomas Cranmer was a thoroughgoing

Calvinist and he was the right drafted the 39 articles of religion, right? Well a lot of your

King James the original 1611 King James Version was very very similar or identical

To the Geneva Bible, which we have no doubt about one being Calvinist. Yeah, and it's no

I know. Yeah, the Geneva Bible was Reference with the King James translators. I mean they they they weren't really trying to produce a totally different Version per se they even though it wasn't a fresh version.

It was a clear fresh version I went back to the original languages and it wasn't just updating a version however, they were

They had the the giant Bible and the you know The Geneva Bible or the great

Bible to give me the great Bible the Geneva Bible at their at their fingertips And I understand that the

Puritans who favored the Geneva Bible looked upon the the King James Version as a new and weird and liberal

Translation that they that should be avoided Well, this is what happened with Jerome who?

With the with the ball gate the Latin gate before you have the old ball gate And when the

Latin at the old Latin versions and when the ball gate came out, it was considered a heretical

Heretical version because it was new and of course then it became the the version of the

Catholic Church eventually, and then then the Catholic Church was very opposed to any new translations and So I think anytime you have a version that's around for a while.

I think it's mainly sentiment you get you Reading it you memorize it. That's the

Word of God because the deezer now, that's what I memorized That's what's familiar with me. That's the Word of God in it.

You start messing with that And you all of a sudden you your memory verses are

Sounding the same. I think people say how can this be the Word of God? I think I think that's part of the problem, especially on your

Your average King James only a position I think if they're arguing not from really any serious scholarship, they're arguing from more or less sentiment we have an anonymous listener who

Asks I heard you ask a recent guest if there was anything that would convince you of a new discovery of manuscripts

Whether or not they should be included in the canon that had never been seen By the light of day in history or would you dismiss?

including any new discovery no matter what the Circumstances were well,

I dismissed it anything that was Recently discovered I would Dismiss it No, no, is that because you believe that in Providence God has hidden something for 2 ,000 years.

It's probably not Something that was intended for the church. Is that what you mean?

That would be a strong argument honestly that God's given us his word that he's he's going to keep his word and So that would be a very strong argument to dismiss anything that would be discovered now

If anything with this was discovered and it was orthodox Of course the way they determine which books are to be in the canon or not would be on various criteriums and one of them is do or is what being said does it match with what we already have and And I would say there's anything that even if we found something it's not quite we can't find any fault for instance, we have letters of Barnabas that Truthfully, they sound like the

Apostle Paul in fact They quote Barnabas quotes a lot of the Pauline epistles and when you read that some of these letters by Barnabas you go man

That sounds good. In fact, it is good, but it doesn't mean it's inspired It doesn't mean it's even though it might be orthodox that alone doesn't mean it's inspired.

So if we found something It may mean it could be something that we would want to utilize in Historical studies, which is different And I would definitely want to be familiar with what would be discovered and maybe we could say this has a high degree of Fidelity to it and this might add a little historical value to our study of the

New Testament But that doesn't mean that we open up the canon and say okay that it belongs to the inspired text very quickly

Robert in New York City wants to know if you have any theories as to who authored the book of Hebrews Yeah You know, it's interesting because James White believes it was

Luke That's interesting. Yeah, that is interesting. I'd like to hear James what argument on that and I bet it would be very convincing

But my argument is more is not as I mean, I wouldn't die on this.

I know right But it just I know there are some terms that Paul doesn't use

The author of Hebrew uses some terms that the Apostle Paul never did use. There are some phrases.

It doesn't sound Pauline, but Overall it to me. It's it sounds very

Pauline to me Well, we're out of time brother and we look forward to having you back and I know your website is GBC Conway comm

GBC for Grace Baptist Church or Grace Bible Church conway .com. Thank you so much for being a part of the program

Thank you, Reverend buzz again for being my co -host I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater