Pastor vs. Roman Catholic

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Well, the final resurrection is at the end of time. We're not going to rise until the second coming. What about the thief on the cross?

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When he said, Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. And he said, I swear today you will be with me in paradise.

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Very good. Now, what's important about that is that the thief went to Jesus for his forgiveness, but also the thief didn't go to a place called purgatory.

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He didn't have to receive satispassio. He was immediately with Jesus, which the

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Bible teaches that through faith in Christ, we have eternal life. We go pass from death to life through faith in him and through faith alone, and that we're not condemned by grace through faith.

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By grace through faith is what Ephesians 2. Well, it says by grace through faith and that not of yourselves.

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It is the gift of God, not according to works, lest any man should boast. As a Roman Catholic, you don't believe that.

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That is not true. So you don't believe that you need to have a righteousness in yourself that the father can see to accept you ultimately?

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Correct. Is it through the righteousness of Christ alone? Yes. Okay, so it's not through the work, the seven sacraments?

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Your works as a Catholic or anyone is your response to the love and the gratitude that you have for the mercy of God.

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So what's purgatory about? Purgatory is about... Purifying you so that you can enter in the presence of God, right?

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You want to be in the presence of God. God has said, okay, through your love of Jesus or faith, you are going to be coming into heaven, but you're not quite ready yet.

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You're not purified. You have to be purified. You're not righteous enough. It's not that you're not righteous enough.

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I think that's what you just said, though. What we're saying is the gospel that Paul preached, the effects of the gospel is he says that he doesn't want to be seen before God with a righteousness, with his own righteousness.

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He says he wants the righteousness that's from above that's a gift from God through faith in Jesus. So he takes his record, his life, his deeds, his works, his labors, and he says it is scubalon, garbage, hot, disgusting garbage.

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And he says I want to be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own from the law, but that which comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

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I think you just admitted that Rome has perverted the gospel in such a way that it's not Christ and his righteousness alone.

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It is ultimately when you die, you have to go to purgatory to be purified, to be righteous enough in God's eyes to be in his presence.

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The gospel is greater than you think it is. It is a gift of righteousness. It is Christ's righteousness that I receive through faith.

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It's credited to me. I have peace with God today, and there is no condemnation because of what

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Christ did. You don't know right now as a Roman Catholic. Well, here's the thing.

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Christ has taken the consequences from my sin. He's died that death. And the Bible teaches that those who have faith in Jesus are counted righteous apart from their works, and God does not count their sins against them.

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Romans chapter 4. You, even through your regular attendance of the mass, you do not know you have peace with God today.

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Isn't that true? Have you committed any venial sins? Everybody commits sin. Great. So you haven't been perfected or purified as of yet.

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That is true. Right. And when's the last time you went to the mass? Sunday. So you were cleansed on Sunday, and then today is

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Wednesday, and now you have venial sins to account for. Okay, and what's a venial sin? That's not peace with God.

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Well, it's different from a mortal sin. What do you mean it's not peace with God? We are all trusting in the mercy of God. Right, but you went to the mass, which you believe is a perpetuatory sacrifice, a presentation of the work of Christ on the cross, and it did not perfect you forever, as the book of Hebrews says the atonement does, once for all.

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You have sins today that you're accountable for. You do not know you have peace with God today, and that's the perversion of the

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Roman Gospel. Well, let me ask you a question. Why does St. Paul say you must work through your salvation?

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He says, Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is working in you to both will and do for his good pleasure.

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Exactly. So you try to... The works that Catholics or all people do are out of gratitude for the mercy of God.

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Sir, did you notice, though, sir? Did you notice, though? I did, I did. It's not my works at all that is going to get me to heaven.

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Except you've already admitted that it is, because you said, on the one hand, you have sins today that you're accountable before God, too.

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The mass did not perfect you on Sunday, and you said that when you die, you're going to have to go to purgatory so that you can be purified to become righteous enough in God's eyes to be in his presence.

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The thief on the cross understood it better than Rome tells you. He turns to Christ, and then what

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Jesus says is, This day, this day, you will be with me in paradise.

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That's the glory of the gospel. Then you tell me he's dead. I said Mary's dead. The thief is dead, physically dead.

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He's, of course, alive in the presence of God, but he is technically dead. So for all that died as Christians, are they all in the presence of God alive?

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Yes, absolutely. Okay, I thought that's different than what you were saying. I said Mary's dead, she's not listening. So the people that have gone before who have died, good

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Christians who believed in Jesus, or horrible sinners who still ask

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Jesus and turn to Jesus for mercy at the last minute like the thief on the cross, are they in heaven?

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Yes, sir. They got in by the skin of their teeth. No, they got in by the grace of God, but at the end of their lives.

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You just used it as an example. I appreciate the question. In Scripture, in a couple places, for example, the

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Apostle Paul in his ministry when he's about to die, he says that he doesn't know what he wants to do.

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He's hard -pressed between two things. Staying with them to minister to them is going to bless them.

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It's for the glory of God. It's all those things he says, but I want to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

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And what he means by that is, of course, his death, to be with Christ. And it says in Scripture, of course, to be absent from the body is to be present with the

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Lord. And so that's the biblical model. You brought up the book of Revelation, sir.

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The book of Revelation shows the martyred and departed believers from the first century in the presence of God, worshiping before the throne.

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And so, yes, Scripture teaches that you have peace with God through faith in Jesus. You are justified by faith, just like Father Abraham.

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He offered nothing. He had nothing to offer God. It was through faith and through faith alone he came to God and trusted in him.

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And Paul says that he was declared righteous through that faith. Rome has taught that it's not through faith in Christ alone.

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It is also through the sacramental system of the church. The grace is distributed through the means of the church.

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You could bring up the issues of the treasury of merit and the saints. All of that is not true. So you don't believe in a treasury of merit?

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I do believe in treasury of merit. So it is true. What you're talking about is, you're saying the sacraments.

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The sacraments are a way to help us continue to follow Jesus as close as possible. Okay, so what if...

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The rosary that you were talking about and making fun of, or at least, I guess, the idolatry.

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Oh, I wasn't making fun. I was pointing to... Well, I was pointing to the fact that if you read

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Isaiah, if you read Isaiah, Isaiah, God mocks people who build idols and place them up on something to bow before them or to treat them in some way special or like their

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God. God mocks people who build idols that can't speak and can't hear and can't see.

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So when Moses is in the desert and the serpents were attacking the Israelites, and he put a serpent on the pole and raised it up and said, if you observe this serpent on the pole, then you will live and have eternal life.

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That's right. You will live at that time, right? Right. For the same reason, Jesus was put up on the cross.

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I think you answered your own question. What was Moses doing, though? It was a foreshadowing of Christ that you have to look to the substitute, to the

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Savior, ultimately, yes. So am I idolizing this thing that I'm wearing? Well, I wear a cross, too, sir.

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And I wear a cross as a representation of what God has done in Christ to tell the world that there is a cross and a

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Savior who died on it. But you'll notice that Roman Catholic crosses are a little different than Christian crosses because you...

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And I think, isn't it true that the reason why you emphasize that with your crosses is because you have

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Christ being presented over and over and over again through the Mass? No, it is not true.

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You don't believe that Jesus in Rome is presented over and over again through the Mass? His work is...

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It's the once and for all sacrifice. Yes. God is outside time, right?

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And so it's the once for all sacrifice. I love that you use that word, those words, because Hebrews, the writer of Hebrews describes it precisely like that, that he offered himself once for all.

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And it says he is able to perfect forever those who draw near to God through him through that atonement.

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But you admitted that your Mass and presentation of Christ on Sunday did not perfect you.

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So it's not the atonement. It's not the atonement of Christ. His is a once for all sacrifice that perfects you forever.

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Through faith... It's a perpetual sacrifice. That never perfects you. That's not true.

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So I thought you said you have sins to be accountable for. We sin, we turn back to God.

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So you went on Sunday though, sir, correct? If you're a born again Christian, you believe that once saved, always saved? I believe that when

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God saves a person he gives them eternal life, yes. Okay, so then when something happens, do you believe that...

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Can I ask you just what you think about that, the word eternal life? Do you believe that as a man we are constantly struggling with sin?

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Oh, absolutely. God is sanctifying his people, for sure. And then you've made your decision ten years ago, yesterday, whatever, it doesn't matter.

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And then you turn completely from that and say, no, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to follow you anymore,

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Lord. So what happens to you? That's a great question, sir. And Scripture gives an explicit answer to it. It says they went out from us.

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The Apostle John says they went out from us, people who apostatize, they went out from us in order to show they were never really of us.

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Jesus says to false believers, he says, depart from me, I never knew you.

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If somebody... I'll finish answering the question. How do you know if you were the person that says, I believe in Jesus, and then you fall because people fall.

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Yes, they do. Humanity. Yes, sir. How do you know whether you're saved or not? Well, first and foremost, the only way

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I can have certainty and confidence is based upon God's own revelation in his word.

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And so Jesus says, for example, it's to what you're asking about. In John chapter 6, he says,

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I've come down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of him who sent me. And he says, and this is the will of him who has sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given to me.

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But raise it up on the last day. And he says, he came to give eternal life to the ones the father gave him.

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And that's our confidence, is that Jesus keeps his own and he says he'll never lose them.

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It seems like you're suggesting that Jesus can receive somebody and then lose them. I don't believe he's that kind of savior.

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John chapter 6 says something different. I'm saying that people will choose to follow

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Jesus for a time. Sure. And then will turn away from him. It's a false, it's a false, it's a false profession of faith.

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Can I object on that? Well, can I just finish the thought there? The false, there are people who have false professions of faith, for sure.

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That's, that's been a problem that even plagued the apostles. And that's what John said. They went out from us in order to show they were never really of us.

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The demonstration that you are truly God's and he has truly saved you is that you endure to the end because Jesus keeps those the father has given to him and he'll lose none of them.

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So the evidence, the vindication that my faith is a living faith and it's true is that there are good works and there is perseverance because it is

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God who is keeping me and Jesus says he'll never lose me or forsake me. So the evidence that my faith is true is of course, like you said, the love, the good works, the obedience.

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That's the presence of the spirit of God in me. But the real evidence ultimately that, hey, that guy was for real.

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That was a true faith is that they make it to the end. But those works and that obedience has nothing to do with my merit before God.

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Scripture says in Romans 4 that he speaks to David also in this way that he counts him righteous apart from works.

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And he says he does not count his sins against him. And the whole argument Paul is making there, sir, is that it is through faith apart from any work of law.

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But Rome has taught you that the work of Christ does not perfect you forever.

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It does not cleanse you permanently. You don't have a righteousness that comes from above. You have a blend of righteousnesses.

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Jesus, the saints. So you don't believe in the treasury of merit? What is the treasury of merit?

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Okay, so the treasury of merit, you know that Mary had extra righteousness, extra obedience, right?

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And it was more than she needed to be right before God. So this extra merit goes into this treasury of merit.

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And through, of course, this being distributed through the church, grace, and all those means, you can have righteousness added to your account from other righteous saints and Mary and others.

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But the Bible teaches that Christ's work was perfect and able to perfect forever those who draw near to God through him.

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Mary will not perfect you. So back to St. Paul. Why are you working out through your salvation to fear and trembling?

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He warns a general congregation, work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is

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God who is working in you both to will and do for his good pleasure. And that's exactly what we believe.

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You believe that it's... God is working us, working through us, and our gratefulness to God is what asks us internally.

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We're driven to do good works. Why are we showing up here? And those good works, and that's a great question, sir.

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And I'm glad you are here standing for the pre -born. I am so glad.

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Let me ask you this. John chapter 6. Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no blood within you. No life in you, yeah.

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Right? And then all of the apostles that were there, well, many of the disciples left.

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Well, first of all, they said this teaching is too hard. Too hard. Too hard. So he didn't say... Well, I was just kidding. I was using it as a metaphor.

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He said... Oh, wait. Oh, I see what you're saying. Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life within you.

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You're suggesting that when Jesus says, eat my flesh and drink my blood, he was talking about transubstantiation and the

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Last Supper. No, before you jump to that... Well, hold on. Can I ask you, though? No, let me finish what I was going to say. Yes, sir.

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So the Jews, blood is sacred to the Jews, right? Everything has to be kosher.

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In what way? Everything has to be kosher. It can't have no blood. Because blood is what the

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Jews believed conveyed the spirit of whatever it was. So if you ate the blood of an animal...

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The life is in the blood. Right. That's what Scripture says. So if you ate the blood of an animal, they believed that you were taking that blood, that spirit into you.

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The blood... You were taking the spirit of the animal into you by having their blood.

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Jesus specifically says, unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life within you. Because what he was trying to say is,

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I want you to take my spirit within you. And that was so... Where is this in the text? Where is this in the text?

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John, chapter 6... No, you just suggested that Jesus was saying, I want you to take my spirit into you by drinking my blood.

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And I'm asking where the Bible teaches that. Where? Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life within you.

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I know that the text says that, but you suggested that Jesus was saying, you'll take my spirit in you by drinking my blood.

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And that's... Because all the Jews knew that if you have blood, you're taking the spirit of whatever it is that's blood.

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Well, the Jews didn't believe that animals had spirit, sir. So that's hard to think that they would have thought that.

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But Scripture doesn't teach that. Then why do they have kosher? Well, there's a number of reasons why they have kosher laws.

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It has to do with dietary restrictions, the holiness code, and those things. Why is it so? Well, can

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I... I'll respond. I'll respond. So first of all, when Jesus is speaking in John 6, that is earlier in the ministry than was even presented, the

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Last Supper, or what God gives us in communion. Right, and if you read John 6, Jesus actually defines what he's talking about when they say it's hard, what he's saying is hard.

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He says that those who eat his flesh and drink his blood are those who believe in him and come to him.

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So can I... I'm going to point something out to you. I'm going to point something out to you. In the text in John 6, he says to a crowd, before they even understand what communion is or what the

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Eucharist is, they don't even have any... it's not been presented to them yet. Well, they've had the manna in the desert.

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Right, but in terms of where you're trying to make a connection between transubstantiation and the

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Eucharist and John 6, Jesus says to that crowd at that time, he says, eat my flesh and drink my blood or you'll have no life in you.

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And they think that's hard. But then he tells them, he says that eating his flesh and drinking his blood is coming to him and believing in him.

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So can I ask you a question? Let me, sir. I'd let you talk a lot. I mean, just one question. Why did he allow his disciples to walk away?

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Well, there's a number of times he did that, but real fast. Let me just... No, no, no. Let me finish the question. This is important. Let me finish the thought.

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Why did he allow his disciples to walk away? I'll answer that after I finish answering what you said.

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And then he turned to Peter and the boys and said, what about you? Let him finish his thought. And what did he say? Sir, let me just finish.

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Before I answer the next question. Where else can we go? I'm going to finish answering the first question before I get to that one.

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So in that moment, on that day, early on in the ministry of Jesus, the Eucharist hasn't been presented yet.

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They don't have any concept of it yet. They have not had the Last Supper. There's crowds of people. And he says, if you eat his flesh and drink his blood, that you would have eternal life.

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They're thinking it's hard. And he says to them that eating his flesh and drinking his blood is coming to him and believing in him.

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So the question to be asked is, if according to Jesus, eating his flesh and drinking his blood is believing in him and coming to him, then that day, if anybody believed in him, did they eat his flesh and drink his blood?

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And the answer is yes. According to Jesus. Nothing to do with the Eucharist. Well, that's what the text says.

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Well, let's see what the text says. Okay. Yes? So, premarital sex, you still believe in Jesus.

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You still believe in Jesus Christ. Because you said once saved, always saved.

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Well, I said that Jesus gives eternal life. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to change your words. No, no. No, no. It's okay. You're asking a really good question.

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Jesus said he gives eternal life. And that would be never -ending life, right? So if he says if anyone comes to him and believes in him, you would pass out of death and into life, and there's no condemnation, and you have eternal life.

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You have eternal life when you come to him in faith, right? So he gives one kind of life, and that's eternal life.

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If that life ends, it was never eternal to begin with, right? And he says I'll never lose,

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I'll never forsake you. Now, is it true that Christians, people who love Jesus and are saved, fall into sin?

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Yes. But they do not stay in that fallenness of sin because they have a Savior who says, I will keep you forever, and God preserves you.

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And the reason that that Christian has eternal life from the start of faith to the end of their life is not through any of their works or good deeds or their obedience.

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It's through the righteousness of Jesus and what he did on their behalf. It's his perfect life the

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Father sees. We're hiding in Jesus. We're in him, the Bible says. So righteousness that we have is not our own.

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It's Jesus' righteousness, and he was perfect, right? True, true, the elect.

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Yes, yes, yes. Well, I would say we have volition or making choices, but outside of Jesus, the

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Bible says that whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. So I don't think that people who are fallen, they don't know

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Jesus, have a completely free will. The Bible says their will is in bondage. Yeah.

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How do you justify that as justified? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's a good question.

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How do you justify... This is not a weapon, I'm sorry. It's okay, no, I wasn't threatened at all.

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Don't worry, no, no, no. But how do you explain that? How are you able to sin if you are the elect and not be bonded to sin?

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It's such a fantastic question. So what I would point you to is, of course, Romans chapters 1 through 6.

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At the start of Romans, he explains the universal indictment upon everybody. Everybody is broken.

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No, it's okay, no, no. So just in Romans 1, he indicts all of humanity. They're all enemies of God, haters of God.

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It's all of us. We suppress the truth of God. And then he goes to the Jew who thinks that because they have the

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Bible and they're Jewish, that they're good to go. And he basically shows them, you're a hypocrite. You tell people not to lie and you lie.

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Don't steal and you steal. So he basically says, it's Jews and Gentiles all under sin. He says there's none righteous, no, not one.

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None who does good, none who seeks for God. There is no fear of God before their eyes. And then he points to the glory of the gospel.

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That what God has done in the gospel, yeah, what God has done in the gospel is he has given to Jesus what we deserve so that he would remain just by not ignoring sin but dealing with it in Jesus, right?

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And then he says at the very end of that, the law will not justify you. It's just going to condemn you. It'll shut your mouth before God.

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It's not going to perfect anybody or make you better in God's eyes. He says, we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

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But then he makes an interesting point that you're asking about. So we're justified only by faith, Paul says, not by works.

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It's Romans 3 .28, he says, through faith apart from works. But he then says at the very end of that, he says, do we then make void the law through faith?

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So we're not justified by the law in any way, Paul's saying. It's only through faith. He says, but do, so do we just void the law now because we're justified by faith?

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He says, no, we actually uphold the law. Then he explains the goodness of the gospel, which you were asking about.

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It's a perfect question, is that God has always saved through faith alone apart from works or apart from law all the way back to Father Abraham.

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It says, Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness. So he makes the whole argument that because of Christ's work, we're counted righteous apart from our works and God will never count our sins against us.

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And then he lands on your point, Romans 6. He says, now that we're in Christ, now that we're justified, now that we have peace with God, he says this, he says, if you truly come to Christ, you've died to sin and now you're alive to God.

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So he says, don't go on presenting yourself as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God.

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And so Paul's whole point there is that if you are truly in Christ, you've died with him and you've been raised.

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And so when you have a status before God where God has declared you judicially, he's made the declaration, you're justified, right?

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And sorry about that. Justified before God, God's already declared you righteous because you're united to his son, but you're indwelled by the spirit of God and scripture says that he who began a good work and you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

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And for Paul, he clearly knows Christians will sin, but they'll sin less and less and less and less through a life of walking with Jesus and obeying

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Jesus and putting sin to death. So the main point is that what the gospel does is it doesn't just give us a right standing before God, but what happens is that God gives us a new nature, a new heart, new desires.

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Are you separating our spiritual from our work to separate us from God?

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That's right. So does it matter if it's a big sin versus... Unless you believe in mortal and venial. No, no,

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I don't. I know you don't. I don't, yeah. But that's actually a good point there.

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The whole issue of mortal and venial sins is the Roman Catholic, because of what Rome has done with the gospel and redefining it and adding things, the

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Roman Catholic never knows that they have peace with God today. Oh, that's not true. I'm a Roman Catholic and that's not true at all.

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I've been supportive. I've left my husband at one point for essentially another relationship.

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I've done it all. I've done horrible and awful things. I have a child that died two and a half years ago.

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Sorry to hear that. I have so much peace in God's mercy.

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I do. If you die today, are you going to go to purgatory? I don't know, that's up for God. But it's possible you're going to go to purgatory?

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And why would you have to go to purgatory if you have perfect peace with God and there's no more condemnation?

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Because justice still needs to be served. Oh, so Jesus didn't get it? Absolutely he did. But he opened up the gates.

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Do you see how Rome distorts the gospel? No, Rome doesn't distort the gospel. He actually compiled the gospel. He gets it and you get it.

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So the justice of God, according to Romans 3, is fully satisfied in Jesus. But in your case, that's why you need

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Jesus. Yeah, and in Corinthians it talks about that there are sins that will bring death and sins that won't, right?

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And that has nothing to do with mortal and venial sins. Well, no, we can go to that text, but I think the main point to focus on,

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I think it's important, is that what Paul says with the gospel is that Christ is the propitiation for our sins, that God is satisfied as justice in Jesus, and that we are counted righteous apart from our works, and God will never count our sins against us.

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So you don't have that piece. Well, wait a second.

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So we're talking about, in Romans 4, he's making the point of how God can declare somebody righteous who is in fact wicked.

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And so he says, Abraham believed God, it was credited to him for righteousness. He says, He says,

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God counts him as righteous, right? So that's the difference in what

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Rome says about the gospel and what happens in the gospel and what Scripture teaches. Scripture teaches it's a gift, that it is something that God does, that it's perfect justice, satisfied.

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His atonement was able to perfect forever those who draw near to God through him. And here's my point I was making to this gentleman over here, is that what

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Rome has done with the Eucharist and the Mass even, the Mass never perfects you. Did you go on Sunday?

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The Mass what? The Mass never perfects you. The Mass never perfects me. It never perfects you. Did you go

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Sunday? Did you receive the Mass? Did I receive the Eucharist? Did you do the

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Mass? Did you participate in the Mass? I participated in the Mass. That's all right. That's what I meant. Where we offer

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Christ back to God. Right. And so you... And the one time satisfied death, it is finished.

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But for you it's not finished though? It is finished. We're just participating. Do you have sins you're accountable for today since Sunday?

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Absolutely. Are we always? So that that sacrifice... Do you never repent? Of course, but my sins, my sins have been satisfied in the once for all work of Jesus.

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And I have today peace with God. That's what Paul says in his Gospel. But do you repent daily? Of course, because I know

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God. But why repent daily? Because it's my Father and I'm His child.

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And He has saved me. I belong to Him. I walk with Him uprightly confessing my sin that has been dealt with on the cross.

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Here's the point. When Paul finishes his explanation that completely denies what

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Rome is telling him about being counted righteous apart from works, not having our sins ever counted against us.

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You believe they will. Some of them will be. He says, therefore we... He says, we have peace with God through faith in Jesus Christ.

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That we have been justified and we have peace with God through faith in Jesus Christ. You don't have peace today.

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I do. You can't tell me I don't have peace. I'm not saying an experiential peace. I mean before God because you believe that you have sins that you're accountable before God and you have to go to purgatory possibly because you won't be righteous enough.

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You're already saved if you're in purgatory. But you're not righteous enough to be in God's presence.

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You're righteous enough. No one is righteous enough to be in God's presence. And that's the glory of the gospel is

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Romans chapter 4. Paul says that through faith we are counted righteous apart from our works and God will never count our sins against us.

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But James has talked about how, you know, we also have to do works, right? Well, James is arguing against those who have a mere profession of faith.

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And he's talking about the difference between a false faith or a dead faith and a real true faith. Is love an action?

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Is love an action? Yeah. Yeah, love is something that you, of course, not just feel but do, right?

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So that's a work, right? And what are we called to do? Love. So love is an action. Therefore, if we do not love, we are not acting accordingly and we will be...

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If we're going to be judged or our sins judged for as not the elect, which that's a whole other thing.

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I mean, I don't believe God creates people to condemn them. You know, that's a whole other thing. So you don't believe there's an elect? I believe in a kind of elect and I think that...

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You know, scripture, you have to. Scripture talks about it quite a bit. Well, yeah, but as a Catholic, you understand we don't look at it as God's like...

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He already has the foreknowledge to know from the outside of time looking in who's going to be saved and not, right?

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Wait, so you think that God... You think that God would look through time and see people who would believe in Him on their own?

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I don't put God in a box. Well, scripture says, what about the unbeliever? It says there is no

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God seeker, none who seeks for God, none righteous, none good. And Jesus said, related to what you're talking about, when

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He talked about people, unbelievers, just people, He says, no one can come to Me.

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No one has the ability. So... So what is it that imputes that ability? The grace of God, the

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Spirit of God, the Gospel. So you must have grace first, right? Oh, absolutely. So you are saved... But that grace is a powerful grace.

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...through faith. Yes. You told him earlier, you're not saved by grace. I didn't say that. Yeah, you told him he's in faith alone.

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No, he was distorting the meaning of the text I was quoting to you. I was saying the text says, we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

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He added the word and grace. I was just quoting the text. He's just quoting a different version. Okay, I see. Yeah, I was...

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He's quoting Romans 3 .28. Yeah, I was... It's not where St. Paul was talking about. The grace. You're saved by grace.

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Yeah, that's Ephesians 2, 8 through 9. That's what I was saying. So, did I apologize?

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Oh, no, you don't have to apologize. My thing too, though, is if you are the elect, who are you preaching to if the elect is already the elect?

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If we are not elect, if my... I watch you guys all the time at restaurants, I can't see if I'm at you or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So, if I am an elect or not, what is the point, other than because the gospel says to preach the good news, right?

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To all creation. Right. Right. But for what reason? If God has already chosen...

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Thank you. ...the elect, yeah. Through the elect. Such a sweet girl. Thank you. Through the elect. Yeah. Right?

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I mean, that's right. I have a real big make -up with Calvinism is that it's kind of like, what's the point if it's already chosen?

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You have the elect and then you have those who already couldn't. You guys have a word for the condemned. What is it? The reprobate.

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Reprobate. That's the word Scripture uses. The reprobate. Well, I guess it depends on what language, right? Right. So, if it's the reprobate...

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That's the English word. Yeah, you're right. So, the reprobate and then you have the elect. So, other than you sitting here, and I'm not mocking you, and you're just like, look at that, look at that, right?

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You're doing what you're supposed to do because Scripture says to do. But how is that going to change my heart if I'm not elect, right?

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If I'm elect, I'll already be drawn to God because it's immovable. So, Scripture doesn't tell us that we know who the elect are.

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We can look and say, that guy's elect. It teaches that there's an elect. Jesus said in John 6,

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I was quoting this gentleman over here, John 6, he says, I've come down from heaven not to do my will, but the will of him who sent me, that all that he has given to me

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I should lose nothing and raise it up on the last day. So, it's Jesus who says that the

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Father gave him a people that he will never lose. Okay? So, that's Jesus' words.

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He came to give us eternal life. We never perish and he'll raise us up on the last day. So, the gospel is not...

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No, it's okay. The gospel is not merely... It's a proclamation.

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It's a command. This is what God has done in Christ. It's perfect life and death and resurrection. And Paul says, and now

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God commands men everywhere to repent. That's the duty of every image bearer of God. They're made for God, made to glorify

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God. They weren't made for some other God or some other purpose. They're made to worship God. So, we go to every image bearer of God, proclaim what

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God has done in Christ, and we say, now God commands you to repent and believe. Now, that message goes out and sometimes people go, oh my gosh,

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I am a sinner. God is holy. Christ, I need you. I only need you. That is clearly the work of the

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Spirit of God in their heart to allow them to come to a place where they see their sin and they trust. They trust, yeah, exactly.

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That's true, yes. Except, Scripture teaches that even the ability to repent and to believe is a gift from God.

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Sure. Whether you do it or not, if you're elect, you're going to come to that conclusion anyways. So...

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Well, no. You will only turn to Christ as a result of the gracious power of God in the gospel.

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Yeah, and if anything good is from God. Yeah, but I mean, but even more so in what you're saying, the way the

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Bible talks about how God saves and the gospel is the power of God for salvation and the Spirit of God opening the eyes of the blind and convicting the world of sin and righteousness.

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So my point is, is that when the gospel comes in, it is a work with the power of God and the grace of God to the glory of God alone when anybody is saved and truly trusts in Jesus.

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Now, just one... We do have to get to work here, but I want to just point one thing out to you, okay?

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When someone says something, because I think this is kind of what you're saying, if there is an elect and God is just going to save them, then why preach the gospel, right?

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Essentially, yes. I would say it the other way. If Scripture gives you such hope and confidence in the power of God in salvation and His ability to raise the dead to spiritual life, then

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I go with total confidence that when God moves by His grace and power to save a sinner, nothing is going to stop

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Him. But if you take the other route and say, no, I think people have this free will and they can reject or whatever.

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They actually have the ability to come if they want to or reject if they want to. God's tried to save and He fails.

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Jesus can die for their sins and fail. The Holy Spirit of God could try to bring them to life and they could resist Him. I would say, then why would you preach the gospel?

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God's already done everything He can. Jesus died for their sins and can fail to save them. And the Spirit of God can be resisted by them.

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I go with full confidence that when God wants to save, He saves like Jesus says. I will lose none of those the

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Father has given to me but raise them on the last day. So I would just point you to this. Because you asked some great questions.

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You asked a really good one too. John 6, John 10. Just read those. Go back to John 6 .60

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and read that. Oh, I love John 6 .60. So I was listening to James White. I love all the debates.

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I watch the Trenthorne debates, the James White, and I'm ready to start listening to, what's his name? The Redhead Beer Guy.

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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Jimmy Akin. Jimmy Akin. He's a sweet guy. He's a character.

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Yeah, he is. He'd let you shake his hand, I don't know. So my question is,

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I heard James White say that there's Catholics that can be saved but in spite of Catholicism.

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In spite of what Rome teaches, yeah. Catholicism is okay to say. Rome is so derogatory.

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Well, the reason why I use, and please forgive me. I don't want you to think I'm trying to jab. I'm trying to be historically specific.

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Catholic, Catholic meant universal. And so whether you were in the eastern, northern

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Africa, if you were a part, if you believed in Jesus, you were a part of the one Catholic universal church.

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But what this, but what, but what this is today, what Rome has evolved into, specifically from Rome, and when

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I say Rome, I'm distinguishing it from eastern orthodoxy and other, you know, branches.

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So what I, the reason why is because I'm trying to say, when I say that not offensively, that Rome has gone through a doctrinal development over time.

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So it's Protestantism. No, what I mean though, but what I mean, but what I mean, there's a difference. I get what you're saying, you're stoning in.

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There's a difference though, in that Rome makes claims to authority and infallibility about its teachings and will tell you things like the infallibility of the

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Pope, the immaculate conception, and those sorts of things will tell you that we are telling you, this is dogma.

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It's, you must believe it. De fide, you must obey this to be truly in fellowship with the church and in Christ.

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But none of those teachings are A, in the Bible, B, even in the early church. And you will find even giants that we all respect in the early church defying what

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Rome says is the tradition, the apostolic tradition. Oh yeah, you'll see,

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I mean you'll even see, you know, people will say you're in line with the Popes. Popes denying that the

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Apocrypha is Scripture, right? But we're supposed to believe it now in terms of... They're not infallible as far as their own opinion goes.

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We have a very specific... Do you see the loopholes you have to go through? No, no, it's not a loophole, because I hear that in Calvinism too.

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I don't believe it because they just said it, but infallibility is a loophole. So, but my whole point, all that, you don't have to digress from here, but my whole question is if what

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James White said, if a Catholic can be saved, not because of Catholicism, but in spite of it, then how, if we're not following the gospel...

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But James, because it's such an important point. Somebody who's in Rome, Roman Catholic Church, they go to church, they don't even know the issues, right?

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They may not even... They may not even understand what the church teaches about the sacraments and indulgences, and they're not even understanding what is even being said in the

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Mass. Yeah, they're just, they're seeing, they're reading their Bible and seeing that Christ is a perfect Savior, and through faith in Him, I can have eternal life today, and they trust in Christ.

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What James is saying is, that's happening by the grace of God outside of what Rome is teaching.

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They may just be ignorant of it, but what I would say is that as you keep reading the glory of the gospel in, say,

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Romans 1 through 5, and you see this gift and this perfection and this righteousness that's not my own, and God never counting my sins against me, you see that, and then you go, and Rome is telling you, no, it's actually not like that.

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You are going to have sins that God will hold against you, and you don't have perfect peace with God necessarily today.

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You don't know that. That's a sin of presumption. I think it's a sin of presumption that even the elect should think that they're elect, because you don't know.

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Well, can I tell you this? And we'll end with this one, okay? And we'll talk more maybe later. I've got to see what's going on. John says, this is inspired

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Scripture, not my words. He says, These things have I written unto you that believe in the name of the

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Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

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He wants us to know that we have it. Rome says, John, that's a sin of presumption.

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John says, believer, I want you to know that you have it. That's not presumption.

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Can we presume he's going to hell? No, I don't think there's any...

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Well, that's a different thing. What I mean by that in terms of presume... I mean, like, I can't look around here right now and say, yep, that guy's going to hell for sure.

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I don't know if God's going to save him. And even a guy like Christopher Hitchens, my favorite... Do you know Christopher Hitchens? My favorite atheist in history.

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I wish I would have got a chance to meet him. He had a lot of gospel and a lot of good guys that he actually really liked that talked to him all the way up to the end of his life.

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I don't know what happened to Christopher in the last four or five days where he was suffering, dying of cancer.

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I don't know that he didn't turn to Christ like the thief on the cross. So I don't know, I can't...

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No, he was elect. I don't know if he turned to Christ. But you don't turn to Christ if you're elect.

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You already chose it. Well, the truth is if anybody turns to Christ, truly turns to him, they are of the elect.

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But what I'll... I think that's... It's John 6.

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I'll read it. I've read it before, but I'm going to read it through your eyes. Well, just read the text. Don't read their mind. He says,

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I've come down from heaven, not to do my will, but the will of him has sent me. And this is the will of him has sent me, that all that he has given to me,

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I should lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. So if people aren't raised up and they are lost, then they haven't been given to Jesus.

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Because who the Father gave to Jesus, people he would never lose. That's the elect. I'm going to test the text.