March 8, 2018 Show with Ken Ham on “Gospel Reset: Salvation Made Relevant” PLUS Dr. F. LaGard Smith on “Darwin’s Secret Sex Problem: Exposing Evolution’s Fatal Flaw: The Origin of Sex”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday. On this eighth day of May 2018, and I'm so delighted to have one of my favorite guests back on the program, somebody who has been educating me on the topic of creation, especially for many years, going back to the 1980s when

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I first saw him live at a creation conference in New York, but I'm delighted to have back on the program

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Ken Ham. He is president, CEO, and founder of Answers in Genesis U .S.

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and the highly acclaimed Creation Museum and the world -renowned Ark Encounter, and one of the world's most in -demand

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Christian speakers, and he is going to be addressing Gospel Reset, Salvation Made Relevant, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Ken Ham.

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Hey, Chris, great to be with you and appreciate all you do. I appreciate you being on, brother, and all you do, and we have in studio back again as our co -host today,

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Charlie Liebert, who is founder of sixdaycreation .com, and he also, a number of years ago, used to work with Ken Ham, and it's great to have you back in studio,

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Charlie. Thank you, it's great to be here, Chris. Hey, I call Charlie a living parcel. That's probably true.

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Yeah, I'm still here, though. The Lord hasn't taken me yet. Yes, I don't think you're the only one who calls

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Charlie a living parcel. I agree, that's true. And I hope that you folks stay tuned for the remaining 90 minutes after Ken's off the air.

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Ken will only be on with us for a half hour today, but for the remaining 90 minutes, we have my old friend,

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Dr. F. LaGarde Smith, back on the program after many years of absence from the show.

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He is going to be discussing his new book, Darwin's Secret Sex Problem, Exposing Evolution's Fatal Flaw, the

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Origin of Sex. So we look forward to having him on later on in the program. But, Ken, this is a book that you have written that is not really focused on the creation -evolution debate.

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This is something really focused on an issue that's as important as creation is, and as important as the old earth, or I should say the young earth, understanding of creation is.

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This is even more of an important issue, the gospel. Tell us about Gospel Reset, Salvation Made Relevant, and especially explain the title, because it is an unusual title,

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Gospel Reset. Well, you know, our heart and answer in Genesis has always been evangelism, and that's what many people are sort of surprised to hear, because they think, oh, well, you people are all about creation, evolution, the age of the earth, fossils, and so on, and that's true.

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We deal with that, because creation apologetics is such an important issue in regard to helping people understand that the book of Genesis is true in what it says about geology, biology, astronomy, anthropology, and so on.

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And there's been a particular attack on the book of Genesis in this day and age. It has created doubt that's led to unbelief for generations in our church.

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But the reason that I've always been in this ministry is because I recognize that if people think the book is not true, then the book being the

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Bible, then why will they believe the gospel that comes from that book? And, you know, I have increasingly seen over the years, or in fact, even when

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I started school teaching in 1975, students said to me, so you're a Christian. How can you believe the

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Bible? How can you believe in Christianity when we know the Bible is not true? Why not because of evolution of millions of years?

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And that's really catapulted me into this ministry, so to speak. But I've always seen creation apologetics as a way of getting people to understand that the

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Bible's history is true. That's why the gospel based in that history is true. And I've noticed over the years that the way most of the church presents the gospel is, you know, tell people about Jesus.

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Jesus died on the cross, raised from the dead, and so on. But it really assumes that they understand the foundational history in Genesis concerning the origin of sin, and what sin is, and death is a penalty for sin, and so on.

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And to put it succinctly, to put it in a nutshell, if you ask me what the book Gospel Reset's all about, it is a radical idea.

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Charlie, hold on to your seat. At your age, you need to hold on to your seat. I'm holding on. I'm holding on. I'm holding on.

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Hold on to your seat. This is so radical, it could knock you off your seat. And the radical idea is this.

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You ready? How about we start preaching the gospel? How about we start proclaiming the gospel the way

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God does it in the Bible by starting at the beginning? Now, you would say, well, of course you start at the beginning.

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I mean, you know, when you're reading an Agatha Christie murder mystery, what do you do? You start at the last chapter and then throw the rest of the book away because you find out who done it?

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You say, no, if you don't start at the beginning, you won't understand the foundation. I want to suggest to you that our churches are presenting the gospel the wrong way for this culture.

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The gospel hasn't changed. The gospel message hasn't changed. The Bible hasn't changed. But the culture has changed.

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The generations that are coming through now, the millennials, and then those that are now younger than the millennials, they're called

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Generation Z. Generation Z in the millennials, when you say God, they no longer think of the

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God of the Bible. It's which God? There are many gods. If you say sin, they have no idea what you're talking about.

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And they don't even believe the book from which the gospel comes. They don't believe the Bible. And so what

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I'm saying is, instead of going out there and saying, trust in Jesus, we need to recognize these generations don't know who

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Jesus is and they don't have the foundation for it. We need to start at the beginning in Genesis and to lay that foundation.

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And we need to be countering the arguments of the world that stop them believing the book is true in Genesis.

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If we don't start preaching the gospel starting in Genesis, they're not going to understand. Is one of the reasons for going back to Genesis when we are presenting the gospel, because people need to know why they need salvation.

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I mean, there are a lot of Christians that go around telling people you need to be saved and so on.

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And they're not even really explaining what that means and why there is a necessity for salvation. Is that one of the reasons we have to go back to the beginning?

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Absolutely. And think about it. We're telling people, look, you need to be saved. Increasingly, they don't even know they're lost and they don't know what being lost means.

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And the way I illustrate this to help people understand it, I use two sermons in Scripture, Acts 2 and Acts 17.

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In Acts 2, Peter goes to the Jews. Now, the Jews believed in a created God. They knew about Adam and Eve.

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They knew about the fall of man. They knew about sin. They knew about the promise of the Messiah, that death was a penalty for sin.

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They had the sacrificial system. So when Peter preached to them, you nail the Lord Jesus on the cross.

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You sinners, repent of your sin. They understood the message and thousands were converted. Whereas when

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Paul preached the same message to the Greeks in Acts 17, now the Greeks were a pagan culture, had many gods, they were atheists and pantheists and so on.

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When Paul preached the same message to the Greeks, they said, what foolishness is this? You see, the

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Greeks believed in evolution. They had no concept of a created God. They didn't have the sacrificial system.

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The Jews understood. They didn't know about Adam and Eve, the fall of man, the entrance of sin and death and so on.

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So they didn't understand the gospel. And my contention is, our culture in many ways used to be like the

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Jews. Kids went to school, heard about the Bible in school. A lot of them went to Sunday school. They knew about God.

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They knew about even Adam and Eve and so on. They knew about sin. And an evangelist could come in like Billy Graham, for instance, and preach the message of the cross and people understood and respond.

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But increasingly, we've got generations now who've come through an education system devoid of the knowledge of God.

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They don't go to church like they used to or Sunday school like they used to. You say, God. They say, which God? There are many gods.

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They don't understand what sin is. We're preaching to them the message of the gospel, the saving power of the gospel, to a culture that's like the

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Greeks. And they have no clue. You've got to start at the beginning. You've got to lay the foundation.

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You've got to help them understand who God is and that God created us and that we're rebelled against God and sin came as a result of man's rebellion and death as a result of sin and why there has to be a sacrifice for sin and who

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Jesus is and what he did on the cross. If we don't explain it from the foundation, they're not going to understand.

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And in addition to that, we've got a problem in that when we even start in the Bible with our culture today and say, well, the

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Bible says they've already been indoctrinated against the Bible by the education system, by the media and so on.

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So we've got to give those apologetic arguments to help them understand. The Bible is true. Science does confirm the

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Bible. The history is true. Now, I can defend that. I can answer your question. Now, let me present the gospel starting in Genesis here so that you understand.

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And, you know, I think if we increasingly keep presenting the gospel the way we've done for generations past, as if they're

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Acts 2 type people, we're going to be increasingly ineffective in reaching today's culture with the gospel message.

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Now, we have a listener. We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who asks,

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When I see things like your title that say salvation made relevant, forgive me if I get a bit nervous because there are so many ministries and churches and Christian celebrities who when attempting to make the gospel more relevant, they remove the sting from it.

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They remove the call to repentance. They remove all the bad news that makes the good news wonderful news.

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Can you reassure us that that is not what you're doing? That is certainly not what I'm doing. And when people read the book, and it's meant to be a title to intrigue people to read it, and it's a very easy read, this particular book, as you know, it's not a long book, and I've had many, many

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Christian pastors telling me that this is one of the most powerful messages that they've heard on this topic.

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The gospel has not changed. The message about sin and the need for repentance, none of that has changed.

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And that's got nothing to do with that. It's got everything to do with making it relevant for today's culture in the sense that we have generations today who don't believe the

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Bible's truth, think science has disproved the Bible. They haven't been to church. They don't understand the terminology.

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When you say God, look, generations ago, when you went into a public school and said God, even the teachers and most of the students would think the

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God of the Bible. You go into a public school today and say God, and they say, which God? There are many gods. You mean the Muslim God or a

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Buddhist concept of God. I mean, which God do you mean? It's like the Greeks in Acts 17 who had many gods in their culture.

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And what happened was when Paul preached the message of Jesus and the resurrection to them, and they said, this is foolishness, you know what he said?

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He looked around and he said, here's an altar to the unknown God. You have an altar to this unknown God. Let me tell you who he is.

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And then he defines who the real God is. He is the creator. He's the one that gives life and breath to all things. He doesn't dwell in temples like your gods and so on.

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He is the real God and proceeded from there to then talk about the fact God made of one man because we're all related.

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We're all descendants of Adam. That's why we're all sinners. And then proceeded on to the message of Christ and the cross and the resurrection.

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You notice something. When Paul initially preached that message of the resurrection to the

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Greeks, they said, this is foolishness. You know, what's this babbler saying?

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But when he then explained who God is and basically defined the terms and laid the foundation, then you notice that some mocked like last time, but some said, we'll hear you again, and some were saved.

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And so here he was preaching to outright pagans. It's going to be like, let me explain to you this way.

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We at one stage of the creation museum, we have non -Christians who come every day, but we had 300 atheists come on one day a number of years ago as a group.

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Wow. That were these aggressive atheists. I did not expect them to go through, fall on their knees and repent because they're a difficult group to witness to.

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And they're blind and they're blinded by the God of this world. And sometimes you have to talk to them for ages and ages and give them all sorts of arguments and direct them to the word of God and explain the gospel right from the ground up.

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And I have had testimonies from atheists who said, for instance, there was someone at a church in Hollywood I met, and he said,

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I watched your Bill Nye debate as an aggressive atheist. And it made me realize there are arguments that I didn't understand before.

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And so I went back to the Bible and started to read the Bible. And as I read the Bible beginning in Genesis, and then

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God brought along an evangelist on Christian radio, and I heard him preach about Jesus and the resurrection.

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And because I had already started reading the Bible and heard your arguments, I started to understand and God used that to save me.

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And that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a method by which to proclaim the same message, not watering down the message, not changing what it means.

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And I totally understand what that person is saying, because that is happening in a lot of churches. They think by changing the message of the gospel, this is a way to reach people.

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Now I'm talking about changing the method to preach the same gospel, but to reach this different culture that we have.

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Yes, and knowing you, you're not talking about using all kinds of gimmickry and things that turn a worship service into more like a party or something.

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You're just talking about being relevant to the culture, as you were saying Paul was on Morris Hill.

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Yeah, exactly. And in fact, you know, one of the things that I actually speak against, you know what I see today? I see a lot of churches realizing we're not impacting the culture.

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Hey, when you look at what's happening, do you realize that, you know, the generation which my mother, my mother is in her 91st year, that's called the greatest generation.

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And then, you know, they're the ones born before 1928. And then you have the silent generation, 1928 to 45, and then the boomers,

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I'm in that, born 1946 to 64. Then you have generation X, 65 to 80, then the millennials, and then generation

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Z. There's been a lot of research done by Pew Research and others showing church attendance for the greatest generation in America was 56 percent.

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And now, with the millennials, it's down to 18 percent, and generation

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Z is even lower. People, the church is not impacting the culture like it did. And you have some of these churches who are watering down the teaching of the gospel, watering down the teaching of the word, making the church more entertainment oriented, trying to make the church look like the world to try to get people in.

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But that's not what we should be doing. What the people need, they need answers.

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They need to know that the Bible is true. They need to be explained the whole gospel right from the very foundation.

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Look, Genesis 1 to 11, that history is foundational to the gospel. It's foundational to the doctrine of marriage.

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It's foundational to why we wear clothes. It's foundational to why

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Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead. And there are generations who don't have that foundation anymore, and so they can't understand

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Christianity. They don't understand the doctrines. They don't understand the gospel. And that's what I'm talking about, is we have got to get the church back to preaching the word of God from the beginning, countering the false arguments of the age, pointing people to the word of God, starting from the foundation, like building a house.

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For many churches, I think they present the gospel by building the roof and the walls, and yet the foundation that's there is the wrong foundation.

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It's the foundation of sand. It's the foundation that they got through the public education system. We need to build the foundation of the rock and the foundation of the word of God, and then build the walls and the roof.

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And that's really the analogy that I use. It's building a house from the foundation up, not the roof down.

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And Bibi, you have won a free copy of Gospel Reset, Salvation Made Relevant by Ken Ham.

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So make sure you give us your full mailing address, so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, can ship that out to you at no cost to you or to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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We have Lou in Sharpsburg, Georgia. And Lou says,

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Why do you think the phrase, and it was good, was not stated in day two of creation?

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Actually, that's interesting that that question is asked, because we just had an article on our website about that. They can go to the

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AnswersInGenesis .org website. I would say a couple of things. First of all, number one, at the end of the sixth day of creation, after the six days,

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God said everything he made was very good. So that includes all six days. So day two is covered under that anyway, that it was very good.

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But we also suggest that on day two, he didn't seem to make anything new. On each of the other days, he made something new, but not on day two.

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He just used what was already there to separate waters above from waters below, so there was no need to declare it good.

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So that's the way that we would answer that. But there is an article on our website. If they go to AnswersInGenesis .org,

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they can see that one of the latest articles we put up there as one of our lead articles is about that topic.

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Great. Well, Lou in Sharpsburg, you've also won a free copy of Gospel Reset, so make sure we have your full mailing address there in Sharpsburg, Georgia.

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We have, let's see, RJ in White Plains, New York, who wants to know, since the

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Muslims claim to believe in the Old Testament as well, how would you start a conversation with a

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Muslim using the Old Testament as a springboard into the Gospel and their need for it?

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Yeah, you know, there's only three really what you would call creationist religions in the world, and that's

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Orthodox Judaism, Islam, who believe in one

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God, and then Christianity. But, you know, when you're talking to Muslims, here's what

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I would say. You present the Gospel in a sense no different than you would present to anyone else.

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I mean, the Bible is for all people for all times, and God has revealed in His Word right from Genesis all the way through.

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It's really all about the Gospel from the beginning to end. It's about man. It's about man, his relationship to God.

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So it's for everyone. The Bible is not just for Christians. It's the Bible is for everyone so that they will become

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Christians. But the Bible is for all people, for all cultures. It's not just for a particular culture.

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It's for all cultures. That's why we translate the Bible into every language we can to reach people with the message of God's Word and the

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Gospel. So first of all, we need to understand that. And so you would present it to a Muslim the same way you would present it to anyone else, and that is starting at the beginning in Genesis.

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Now, keep in mind, the Koran doesn't have all the detail in it that Genesis has. And so you also need to be familiar with how to talk to a

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Muslim in that regard. And we actually just put out a series of books dealing with world religions and cults where we teach people how to actually communicate with people from these different backgrounds, whether it's

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Hindu or Muslim or atheist or whatever it is. And so there's ways and means of doing that. You need some knowledge of what they believe and some knowledge of what they rely on as their authority.

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And you've got to be prepared to be able to make the right arguments at the time. So you certainly need that.

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And there's lots of materials out there on how to deal with that in talking to someone of the

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Muslim faith. But again, keep in mind that faith comes by hearing, hearing by the

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Word of God. It's God's Word that convicts. It's God's Word that sharpens a two -edged sword. God's Word will not return unto him void.

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And so just like with an atheist, what I do is I answer their questions that they have against the

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Bible to show I can defend my faith and then point them to the Word of God so that then they will understand the

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Word of God from the beginning, so they'll understand the Gospel. And you do that with the

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Muslim as well. Point out some of the inconsistencies in the Qur 'an and that it doesn't have all of the details in regard to Genesis, for instance, that the

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Bible has. I mean, the Qur 'an is more of a war poem and has all sorts of other issues as well.

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But that's a whole other topic that we could get into. Well, I wanted to let you know, I don't even think I told Charlie Liebert this yet, my co -host, but about a week ago,

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I had lunch with Charlie. He dropped me off at the local library, and there was a Muslim woman with a baby stroller walking in at the same time as me.

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And she saw 6daycreation .com emblazoned on Charlie's vehicle, and she started to ask me about it.

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And I had a little opportunity to witness and share with her the URL for this radio program. So hopefully she's listening today.

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She was very intrigued, and she immediately dug through her pocketbook for a pen and paper to write down the URL for my website.

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So she didn't seem like she was just appeasing me or anything. She looked like she was very interested. But Charlie, go ahead.

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I'm sorry, Ken. And, you know, they don't understand or believe that Jesus is God, and they don't understand who

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Jesus is. And they have no assurance of their eternity or what's going to happen to them in the future. And it makes a big difference when you explain all that to them.

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And we do have assurance in Jesus Christ and what he did for us. And it's not our works. It's not something that we do.

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I mean, all that is so very important. I mean, other than Christianity, all other religious views, they're all works -based anyway.

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And that's why people don't understand what it means that it's

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Christ alone and faith alone and grace alone. And they need to understand that it makes a big difference in regard to communicating the gospel to them.

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Amen. And Charlie Lieber, you had a question. Yeah. One of the problems we face, Ken, is the education system is bringing out people that are preconditioned against the gospel.

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So one of the things I would propose is that we ask them questions to get to their presuppositions.

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Yeah, exactly. In fact, look, let me give a practical example here, because it really relates to the same issue.

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I've been at conferences where someone will come up to me and they'll say, I'm a homosexual.

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I believe in gay marriage. What do you think of that? Now, I know there are some Christians that will say, well, that's wrong, and that's sin, and the

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Bible says no, and all the rest of it. I wouldn't do it that way. What I say to that person is, well, can

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I explain to you why I believe what I do? As you see, I start with the Bible. Then if they say, well, and this is what they've said to me, well,

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I don't believe the Bible. And I say, well, you know what? You don't believe the Bible? No, don't give me that Bible stuff. I don't believe it.

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Well, guess what? I do. Now, what are your problems with that? I want to know what your arguments are against the

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Bible. Tell me some of your questions that you have. I want to answer them for you to show I can defend my faith, because I can show you that this really is the word of God.

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Now, I'm going to get to the stage where I say, now, I've answered a lot of those questions, and I want to show you when

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I start with the Bible, because God made Adam from dust and Eve from his side. That's the whole basis of marriage.

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Marriage is God -ordained. That's why I believe marriage is a man and a woman, and so on. And I can say the same with the

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Gospel. That's why I believe we're sinners. That's where the origin of death comes from, because of sin.

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That's why we die. That's why I believe in the message of the Gospel. In other words, I explain it from the foundation up.

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Too often, what we try to do is impose the Christian message from the top down, and that's another aspect of really what this book is all about.

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It's really explaining that we need to be teaching foundationally, communicating foundationally.

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The Bible's not just a guidebook to life. The Bible's not just a book about spiritual and moral things. The Bible is a revelation from God that's the foundation for our entire worldview.

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And when you think foundationally in regard to issues like abortion and marriage and in regard to the

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Gospel, and you explain it foundationally, and you think in terms of the person I'm talking to, what is their foundation?

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Because ultimately, there's only two, God's word and man's word. But what is their foundation? If they don't have the same foundation

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I do, they're not going to understand the message. So I have to really deal with this foundational level first.

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That seems to be missing from much of the church in teaching our coming generations what

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Christianity is all about, what the Gospel's all about, and how to defend our faith. Well, we have time for one more question.

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Joey in Clifton, New Jersey. Dear Ken, I greatly appreciate your ministry. Some seminary contexts firmly believe in biblical inerrancy and are very faithful to the

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Gospel message, but I have compromised—I'm sorry, but they have compromised on Genesis 1 and view of days of creation, meaning they believe in an old earth even though they believe in a miraculously created

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Adam. I believe more and more evangelicals are trying to take this old earth created

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Adam view. I am trying to think of ways to encourage professors to realize why this view is dangerous.

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Can you offer any suggestions? Well, real quickly, because we only have a short time, and I've only got a couple of minutes here, and we have some great articles on our website and so on, and we deal with this issue—actually,

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I deal with this issue in my book, The Lie, which is really the other major—I've written many, many books, but The Lie is sort of the major message of our ministry.

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But let me put this to you this way. Look, if you were to go to these people and say, do you believe

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Jesus Christ bodily rose from the dead? Well, yeah. Why? Well, because, you know, you weren't there.

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How do you know he rose from the dead? You didn't see it happen. Yeah, but the Bible says. And, you know, you can go through and say, do you believe Jesus walked on water?

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Do you believe he healed the lame, healed the blind? Do you believe the Israelites crossed the Red Sea as a miracle?

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Do you believe Jonah was in a fish for three days? You know, a great fish. And they would say, well, yeah, because the

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Bible says that, and, you know, it's the Word of God. But then when you go to Genesis and say, well, the Bible says

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God created in six days. The Bible says there was a flood that covered the highest hills out of the whole of heaven. Death came after sin, and so on.

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They would say, oh, no, but because of the scientists, it doesn't mean that. And here's the thing that we need to be understanding here.

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I had a pastor interview me on radio once, and he said, but you agree you can have different views of eschatology, premill, postmill, armill, different views of modes of baptism, sprinkling, immersion, speaking in tongues,

28:30

Sabbath day. And you have different views of Genesis. It's the same thing. But it's not. And here's the key to it.

28:35

When you're arguing about different views of eschatology, different views of baptism or Sabbath day or, you know, whatever it is there, you're arguing from Scripture.

28:46

You're using Scripture. Now, obviously, somebody's wrong, but we're arguing from Scripture. But when we have different views of Genesis, it's because we have taken the secular view of our age, about the age of the earth and evolution, which

28:58

I call the pagan religion of the age to explain life without God. You're taking ideas from outside of Scripture, from the secular world.

29:05

You're taking them to Scripture, and you're changing what Scripture says. You're undermining biblical authority.

29:11

And even though a lot of these people might say they believe in inerrancy in our seminaries, there seems to be a schizophrenia, if you like.

29:19

And that is, for Genesis 1 to 11, they have one hermeneutic where they're prepared to accept ideas from outside and reinterpret what the

29:27

Bible says, but they would never do it in the rest of Scripture. And somehow we have to get that across to them.

29:32

And as soon as they add millions of years into the Bible, the millions of years came out of deistic and atheistic naturalism to explain the fossil record without God.

29:41

And they say it was all laid down millions of years before man, but it's full of death. It's full of diseases, like cancer in the bones in the fossil record.

29:50

How can you have all this death and cancer and abscesses and other diseases in the bones in the fossil record millions of years before man, when after God made the first man, he said everything he made was very good?

30:02

So you've got to point out all these sorts of inconsistencies and problems and challenge in them that they're undermining biblical authority.

30:10

And that's the reason why I believe many people today don't understand the gospel, because they think death has always been here.

30:16

Again, that's why you've got to start in Genesis, to help them understand death as a consequence of sin.

30:22

That's why Jesus' death on the cross was so important. He conquered death and offers us a free gift of salvation.

30:28

Well, Ken, it's been such an honor and privilege to have you back on the program. I look forward to many more interviews with you in the future.

30:35

I know your website is AnswersInGenesis .org, AnswersInGenesis .org,

30:41

and people can also find out at that website about the Creation Museum and the Ark Encounter. Thank you so much,

30:47

Ken. And by the way, I'm sure Charlie Liebert wants to say goodbye. Yeah, I want to say goodbye. I want two things, Ken. The first one is the first apologetic book

30:54

I read after I became a Christian was The Lie. Oh, great. And the second thing is give regards to Mark and everybody up there at AIG.

31:03

I will. It was a great talking to you guys. All right, Ken. Thank you. Looking forward to your return,

31:08

Ken. Okay. Thank you, bud. God bless. Bye -bye. And don't go away, folks, because for the remaining 90 minutes we have joining us on Iron Trip and Zion, my old friend,

31:18

Dr. F. Lagarde -Smith, who's going to be talking about his new book, Darwin's Secret Sex Problem.

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Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon

36:06

Eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study, because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back.

36:12

This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned into our program today, our second guest for the remaining 90 minutes of the show is

36:18

Dr. F. Lagarde Smith, an old friend of mine. I think the last time he was on the program was on the old

36:24

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio broadcasting out of New York when he was having a debate, actually opposing my personal theological view on predestination, being a

36:35

Calvinist myself, but he is a dear old friend, and he is a former district attorney from Malheur County, and you're going to have to correct that pronunciation,

36:46

Oregon, who served as an administrator for the Oregon State Bar in Portland for one year, then spent 27 years teaching at Pepperdine University School of Law in Malibu, California, and he was focusing on criminal law, criminal procedure, trial practice, and law and morality.

37:05

He was a scholar in residence for five years for Christian studies at Lipscomb University in Nashville, Tennessee, a former visiting professor of law at Faulkner University's Jones School of Law in Montgomery, Alabama, an author of some 30 books, and some of those books include books that I arranged interviews featuring

37:29

Lagarde to discuss many years ago on the old Andy Anderson Live program before I got my own talk show on WMCA, and those books include

37:38

Fallen Shepherds, Scattered Sheep, ACLU, The Devil's Advocate, The Seduction of Civil Liberties in America, Sodom's Second Coming, which was a book about the destruction of the moral fiber of America through the rise of homosexual activism,

37:58

When Choice Becomes God, I think the best title ever to be thought of in regard to an anti -abortion book,

38:06

When Choice Becomes God, and of course I cannot forget the book

38:13

Out on a Broken Limb, which was a response to Shirley MacLaine's New Age movement that was documented in her book

38:22

Out on a Limb, and it's my honor and privilege to have you back after a long absence on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr.

38:29

F. Lagarde Smith. Hey Chris, thanks for having me on. My, you're dredging up some old, old books.

38:35

Excellent books. Those are excellent books though, and I would love to even see them being revised with updated information in them if that is at all possible, because they were,

38:46

I think, tremendous. But also let me introduce you to my co -host, Charlie Liebert of sixdaycreation .com.

38:51

Hi, good to meet you. And you, Charlie. And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Dr.

38:58

F. Lagarde Smith, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com,

39:07

and please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, your country of residence if you live outside the

39:13

U .S .A., and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

39:20

Let's say you disagree with your own pastor on something we're talking about, or whatever the case is that makes this question a personal and private matter, then we will respect your request and you can remain anonymous.

39:33

But other than that, please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence. By the way,

39:38

I don't know if you remember this, Lagarde. This was back in the late 1980s. I arranged a speaking engagement for you in Bethpage, New York, where you addressed out on a broken limb.

39:53

And during your opening remarks, you were talking about the unseen realm of the demonic.

40:03

And as you were speaking, you were saying something like, you know, as we are sitting here speaking, there are things happening that we cannot see, including the demon realm.

40:14

And while you were in mid -sentence, a CB radio or something got connected to your microphone in this church, and we were hearing other voices through the speakers.

40:27

Do you remember that? I do. I do, very clearly. That's what we say on this program,

40:35

Chris. And by the way, I also have to quickly mention that Lagarde is a compiler and narrator of the

40:44

Daily Bible, the NIV in chronological order. A very good friend of mine,

40:50

Pastor John Yenchko of the North Shore Community Church in Oyster Bay, Long Island, told me a couple of years ago that he absolutely loved the

41:02

Daily Bible, and he purchased many, many copies, dozens of copies to give out to people years ago, and maybe is still doing it.

41:11

But I just wanted to give that shout out to Pastor John Yenchko, because he was really impressed with the Daily Bible.

41:17

And tell him that my wife, Ruth, really appreciates him buying all those copies. Very good, very good.

41:24

Oh, another quick thing. I don't even know if you're aware of this. Years ago, I called your home to arrange an interview.

41:32

This is when you were still living in Malibu, and you were working for Pepperdine on the faculty there.

41:38

And a woman answered the phone that I was to find out was your house sitter, and it turned out to be the daughter of a friend of mine,

41:49

Paul Seto, who was, for many years, the pastor of the Queen's Christian Reformed Church.

41:56

Paul Seto's daughter somehow knew you and your wife and was, I think she was a student there in Malibu?

42:03

Yeah. That was a really remarkable providential occurrence there. All world.

42:08

Yeah, I don't know if Pastor Paul Seto is still with us, because he was very, very up in years way back then.

42:17

But I'm sure we'll meet him in heaven one day if he is not already there.

42:24

He will be there, I'm sure. But anyway, the book that you have written,

42:30

I know that since you are frequent visiting England, you will be very familiar with the term cheeky.

42:38

And I know that your title, Darwin's Secret Sex Problem, is a bit of a cheeky title, and we have to clear up any misconceptions or preconceived notions that our listeners have about this.

42:52

This is not about Darwin wearing a German helmet and stiletto heels or needing a prescription for anything.

42:58

This is about exposing evolution's fatal flaw, the origin of sex. How did you come about to discover this and feel the need to put it in a book?

43:10

You know, Chris, this is one of those topics that I can't even tell you when I first started thinking about the problem that ended up four years of research and this book, finally.

43:24

But for many years, I've had this nagging feeling that there is an

43:31

Achilles' heel to the theory of evolution that has nothing to do with scripture but everything to do with science.

43:41

That if you think in terms of the theory itself, and let's just start with one really important distinction before we go any further.

43:52

The theory of evolution is a two -headed kind of an animal. One is that things change, organisms evolve, that there is a process of natural selection, that there is a kind of survival of the fittest that takes place.

44:10

And I don't know anyone who really doubts that process, and it's very helpful for scientific research today and for technology and medical breakthroughs and so forth, how organisms morph and change and evolve, even within our own bodies.

44:28

That's not what we're talking about. What we're talking about is not the observable evolution that we could actually give

44:36

Darwin credit for, but his extrapolation of what he observed to something he could not observe, and which became his great theory, his grand theory.

44:49

And I'm going to call that, as I do in my book, the evolution story, the romanticized, politicized, now even theologized evolution story.

45:03

That's what everybody talks about in the textbooks. That's the amoeba -to -man or microbe -to -man evolution, the macro evolution as opposed to micro, or the capital

45:16

E evolution as opposed to little e evolution. And if we don't make that distinction, we're in trouble along a large number of fronts.

45:26

So it was my thinking, before I even did the research, that there's got to be, logically, logically, there's got to be a problem when little e evolution cannot overcome a particular problem that would be necessary to get to capital

45:47

E evolution. And that particular problem has to do with the origin of sex and the perpetuation of sexual reproduction in millions of sexually unique organisms and sexually reproducing animals and plants.

46:05

Without those two things taking place, and evolution cannot explain them, then we wouldn't be here.

46:14

And so, wholly apart from any biblical teaching, just strictly taking science,

46:22

I was motivated to dig into the science and ask the question, can evolution explain the origin of sex and the perpetuation of species through sexual reproduction?

46:35

And the answer is, it cannot. Wow. You have, as a subtitle, a challenge to both evolutionists and evolutionary creationists.

46:47

I was just talking with my co -host Charlie Liebert before the program. He loves the phrase evolutionary creationists, not because he agrees with evolutionary creationists, but he and I had never heard of theistic evolutionists referred to that way.

47:04

If you could explain that subtitle. Yes, it's a title that basically says the same thing.

47:13

It's describing people who have faith that the God of the Bible, the

47:18

God of Genesis, created the universe and mankind. But they believe that he did it by an evolutionary process that is precisely

47:29

Darwinian evolution, except that it now has, because God's behind it supposedly, it now has purpose and direction, which purely naturalistic evolution could not possibly have.

47:43

I think it's, if you were to ask evolutionary creationists why they prefer that label to theistic evolution, what they say is that the adjective theistic evolution puts the emphasis on evolution, just saying that it's a matter that a deist or theist

48:09

God brought about creation through evolution, whereas evolutionary creation, they say, puts more emphasis on creation than evolution.

48:20

But to me, it's a complete window dressing to try to give it more respectability, because I think they understand that theistic evolution has been beaten down a lot over the years, and they're trying to take a fresh approach to it.

48:35

I'm really surprised that the two of you haven't heard of it, because it is at the heart and soul of most of the books today that are written by people of faith who believe that God used the theory of evolution as his means of creation.

48:51

One of the books written by the most radical of those who are out there,

48:57

Dennis Lamoureux, is called Evolutionary Creation, and he might have started the use of that label.

49:05

But that's the label that would be used as a matter of preference by the

49:11

Biologos Institute, which is the

49:16

Biologos Foundation, which has become the most prestigious and evangelistic proponent of evolutionary creation.

49:24

It was founded by the famed geneticist Francis Collins. You may remember him as the former head of the

49:31

Genome Project. He's now with the National Institutes of Health, and it's endorsed by such luminaries as Tim Keller, N .T.

49:39

Wright, Philip Yancey, Oz Guinness, Mark Nold, John Ortberg, Richard Mao, and Andy Crouch, who was formerly executive editor of the

49:46

Christianity Today, and now with the John Templeton Foundation, which maintains close funding ties with Biologos.

49:52

So all the big dogs in Christian scholars and theologians have bought off on evolutionary creation.

50:00

This is what's being taught in most Christian universities today. Most biology professors on Christian campuses have bought off on evolutionary creation.

50:11

They believe that God created, but he did it through a process of biological evolution that is, in every other respect, the same as Darwinism, except that, well,

50:24

God was behind it. It was his idea. That raises a huge issue. And the issue there is simply that evolution process requires reproduction, struggle, and death.

50:37

And death being a part of the creative process is contrary to basically everything the

50:44

Scripture teaches. I don't know how you can credibly make those statements. It just boggles my mind.

50:53

Well, one of the things that's really interesting to me about the whole theory of evolution is that evolution requires extinction.

51:03

And species do become extinct, and we're about to lose, even today, next week, next month, we're about to lose a species here and a species there, because the last ones are dying out.

51:19

So extinction is a reality. What's really, really fascinating is that evolution depends upon extinction, but it cannot explain death itself.

51:34

There's no reason for a natural process of evolution to have every living organism eventually die.

51:43

But the reason that you have to have death, in a way, is because you have the problem of sexual reproduction.

51:52

Sexual reproduction and death go hand in hand. In order to replenish after death, you've got to keep reproducing.

52:03

And so you've got a two -fold problem if you're an evolutionist or an evolutionary creationist. The two -fold problem being,

52:11

A, how do you explain death from a natural process standpoint? And, B, how do you explain sexual reproduction, which is required hand in hand with death to keep life going?

52:23

So it gets really complicated for anyone who's trying to hold hands with both evolution and the concept of death that we understand from Scripture.

52:35

And we have to go to our midway break right now. This is a longer -than -normal break. It's a 12 -minute break that Grace Life Radio 90 .1

52:42

FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us to have between our two major segments. So I hope you're patient with us as we take this longer -than -normal break and use this time not only to write down information provided by our advertisers so that you can patronize them, but also use this time to write questions for our guest,

53:00

Dr. Efflegard Smith. And we already have several of you waiting to have your questions asked and answered by him.

53:07

And we will get back to you as soon as we can after this break. And our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

53:14

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And as always, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

53:24

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away.

53:30

We'll be back after this break with Dr. Efflegard Smith in more of our discussion on Darwin's secret sex problem.

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01:05:27

Before we return to Dr. Efflegard Smith, we just have a couple of brief announcements. First of all, at the end of this month,

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May 29th through the 31st, I will be in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at the Elizabethtown College for the 2018

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because they have several U .K. conferences, and they already completed their U .K.

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May 29th through the 31st, in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania. Make sure you tell Banner of Truth that you heard about them from Chris Arnsen and Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

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Last but not least, I am doing the part of the program that I hate the most, and that is rattling my tin cup and asking for donations.

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01:07:01

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01:09:18

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01:09:39

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01:09:54

Dr. F. Lagarde Smith. And the email address again is chrisarnson at gmail dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

01:10:03

And as I have said before, please always give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:10:13

USA. So we are now back with our discussion with Dr. F. Lagarde Smith. And before we take any listener questions,

01:10:20

Lagarde, I would like you to comment on something you've written in the book before you even begin chapter one.

01:10:29

This is a dedication to tomorrow's researchers, thinkers, teachers and leaders whose passionate search for scientific truth may at last bring about a long overdue rejection of the romanticized evolution story.

01:10:44

An evolution revolution is coming. So I'd like you to comment, if you could, both on what you mean by a romanticized evolution story and also on what you mean by an evolution revolution.

01:10:56

Well, Chris, the romanticized story is the story that little kids are read at bedtime about the dinosaurs millions of years ago that evolved prior to us and that we evolved from lower beings into the humans that we are now.

01:11:12

That whole story that we start off with kids and their coloring books and then we have on PBS documentaries and in the textbooks, the microbe to man story that we get in textbooks that is unsupported by the science of evolution itself.

01:11:32

That's the romanticized story. As for the revolution, I really do sincerely believe that as with, say, for instance, the notion of a flat earth, that that notion is going to go away.

01:11:48

The evolution story notion is going to go away someday. It's just a matter of time because it's got a fatal flaw.

01:11:54

It's got lots of fatal flaws, but certainly the one we're talking about in this book about the origin of sex and sexual reproduction.

01:12:01

And it's also going to go away, I think, because it is laden with bankrupt values.

01:12:10

And people, I think, are going to realize at some point that the values that we have, that we value, the morals that we value, those could not ever have come from the story, the romanticized story of evolution.

01:12:28

The only way that we have that is through some alternative explanation of life.

01:12:36

And if the theory of our origins is reduced to the theory of evolution, we have no foundation, no basis for the kind of cultural norms, morals, and values that we have.

01:12:52

So it's going to come to that. It's just that it is so entrenched right now that we need something,

01:13:01

I think, like this book, a fresh, powerful approach to the topic that will open people's eyes finally at last and have a younger generation say, come on, we've been fed the biggest of all lies, the grandest scientific lie that's ever been.

01:13:20

This is bigger than even heliocentric to geocentric, whether the universe is centered in the earth or centered in the sun.

01:13:30

This is huge. That controversy didn't have the same implications that this one does.

01:13:37

So I think that revolution is coming. And the other thing I want to emphasize, and Ken Ham, I could have paid him to set up my segment the way he did in the 30 minutes, because what he said was, in order to reach people with the gospel, you've got to go back to Genesis.

01:13:56

And I know he would agree with me on what I'm about to say, but you can't even actually start with Genesis in today's culture.

01:14:03

The point he was making about the new generation and the way it thinks is that you can't even start with Genesis, because Genesis is part of the

01:14:15

Bible. The Bible, if you believe it at all, came from God. The problem is that Ken is right, that in our educational school systems and so forth, and on television, everybody's been brainwashed into believing the microbe -to -man evolution story.

01:14:35

Well, that story has no place for God in it. If there's no place in that story for God, if there's no

01:14:42

God, there's no Bible. If there's no Bible, there's no Genesis to start with. In other words, we can't use the old arguments.

01:14:51

Ken is absolutely right. We can't use the old arguments that we've been using about evolution and creation.

01:14:58

My book is an effort to actually start not from the

01:15:03

Bible, but from science itself. In other words, from the problem

01:15:09

I'm dealing with, it doesn't matter if there were even a Bible at all, because there's a problem with the theory of evolution on its own,

01:15:18

Bible aside, Genesis aside, Adam and Eve aside, six days aside. None of that makes any difference to this generation.

01:15:27

So to this generation that's going to look at the facts of the problem that is a fatal flaw to the evolution theory, that's what we've got to deal with.

01:15:37

We can open their eyes, we'll have that revolution, then we can talk about God, then we can talk about the

01:15:43

Bible, then we can talk about sin and salvation, then we can talk about Jesus Christ. But before we lay the foundation of the problem of the bad science of evolution, at least the evolution story, we're going to get nowhere with this generation.

01:15:59

In fact, my co -host Charlie Liebert, founder of sixdaycreation .com, before the show, he told me that your thorough exposé of evolution's fatal flaw, the origin of sex, is all we need really to disprove evolution.

01:16:16

You want to expand upon that, Charlie? Yeah, as I was reading that, I was thinking, if scientists really take this seriously, then evolution has been falsified.

01:16:27

It's falsified and it's fatal, it's absolutely fatal. And here's the quote that we all need to keep in mind from none other than Charles Darwin himself.

01:16:37

Darwin said, if it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous successive slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.

01:16:53

And all I'm doing is taking Charles Darwin at his word and saying, all right, if that's your test of the validity of your theory, here's the problem.

01:17:03

It doesn't meet the test of sexual reproduction. And I don't think we've gotten to the basic point of my book yet, which is so critical for people to understand, that by evolution theory, we would have started off with asexual, non -sexual reproduction or replication.

01:17:22

And that's basically copy, copy, copy, exact copy, call it cloning if you want.

01:17:27

So what you see is what you get in the next generation. That's called mitosis.

01:17:33

But sexual reproduction is radically different in process from that. And that radically different process requires, first of all, that there be a male and a female, which there never was under mitosis.

01:17:47

And you could never get there from mitosis because there's no DNA information in mitosis to get that to that point.

01:17:53

You have to have a separate male, a separate female. They would have to have the same chromosome counts, the same kind of chromosomes.

01:18:02

They would have to come up with a process of taking half of their chromosomes away, blending the remaining half in an incredibly intriguing process of crossing over and coming back together to produce the next generation that has the full complement of the exact same chromosomes and so forth.

01:18:27

Whereas with mitosis, you get the same exact result.

01:18:33

In meiosis, you get something similar. But every individual that's ever been created as a result of that process is a unique individual.

01:18:45

And I'm talking about whether it's plants, animals, whatever reproduces sexually. So the odds of even getting the very first male are incredible.

01:18:58

The very first female are incredible. To get them to be compatible would be incredible.

01:19:05

To get them to mate would be incredible. To get them in geographic proximity in order to mate would be incredible.

01:19:13

To have the instinct to mate and then to like each other well enough to mate would be incredible.

01:19:19

All of those things are necessary to get from the very first generation of sexually reproducing creatures to the second and on to the third and so forth.

01:19:29

Well, there's another factor here that just occurs to me as you talked about this, and that is in mitosis, there is absolutely no diversity.

01:19:37

In other words, the paramecium is a paramecium forever. But in sexual reproduction, diversity is enhanced by the fact that every single chromosome can be different.

01:19:47

All the genes are different. So the variability becomes huge. You cannot get from one process to the other.

01:19:55

Certainly, gradually, you'd have to have everything in order in the first generation in order to get to the second generation.

01:20:05

Now, this sounds like, if anybody's out there understands the intelligent design argument with the irreducible complexity, it sounds a lot like irreducible complexity.

01:20:16

And evolutionists think that they have overcome that ever since Darwin said, well, we can gradually develop a human eye, for example.

01:20:24

And everybody's bought off on the fact that, oh, that can happen. Well, as absurd as that possibility is, evolutionists think they have refuted the irreducible complexity argument of the intelligent design people.

01:20:36

But I'm going another step further in my book to say it's not a matter of complexity because mitosis is complex.

01:20:46

Meiosis is complex. What's different is that they are so radically different that you couldn't get them to happen by any gradual process that you can imagine.

01:21:00

And then, just before I hang up on this whole idea, there's a secondary problem that I think is more easily understood by most people who may not even know what mitosis and meiosis are all about.

01:21:12

But just think about this logically. Just think about what a species is.

01:21:18

A species is defined primarily because of a unique way in which it reproduces.

01:21:24

There are millions of species, plants, animals, so forth, millions of species. They each and every one reproduce in a different way.

01:21:34

They have different mating habits, different mating equipment, different reproductive processes, different reproductive instincts and mating instincts.

01:21:42

Everyone is a species because they're sexually unique. Now, to get from one sexually unique species to another, think about this, you'd have to have just the exact right male and the exact right female mating in order to get to the second generation of that species, much less to any higher species, which is really the bread and butter of the whole common descent argument.

01:22:10

So, it's just a matter of logic. And you know what? This is intriguing,

01:22:15

Chris. The evolutionists say that the origin of sex, they acknowledge quietly, quietly, that's why it's

01:22:23

Darwin's secret sex problem. They acknowledge that the origin of sex is the queen of evolutionary problems.

01:22:30

And they struggle with it and they study it and they have all sorts of theories, but in the end they always say, we don't know how it happened.

01:22:37

But they never once, never once talk about the even greater problem, in a sense, of how you get millions of species with their unique sexual reproductive capacities and processes.

01:22:51

Never once. There's another factor here, too, and that is things like chromosome count.

01:22:57

I mean, it has no logic in terms of the complexity of the creature. The highest chromosome count is a plant.

01:23:03

So that whole area itself, how would you bridge from one to another to get another species if the chromosome count is different?

01:23:10

You can't go from 60 to 40. Yeah, you can't even do it between chimps and humans, you know, where you got a disparity of two.

01:23:19

It would have to be done gradually and you would have to do it with both the male and the female simultaneously.

01:23:26

That's the other key to it. That makes no sense at all. And we have a question,

01:23:33

Lagarde, from a mutual friend of ours, Dr. Latane C. Scott, who is herself a published author, who's been on this program a number of times.

01:23:42

And I'm looking forward to having her back to address a number of things, including her book,

01:23:48

Why We Left Mormonism, which she co -authored with a number of other scholars who have their doctorates who were

01:23:55

Mormons, who became born -again believers in Christ Jesus. But Latane says,

01:24:03

I've been reading Lagarde's new book and it is excellent. His mind is like a scalpel.

01:24:08

Honestly, I don't ever want to be on the opposite team from him on anything.

01:24:15

And she says, the main premise is that there is no explanation from evolutionists for the two reproducing genders from a previous status of asexual reproduction.

01:24:29

Hope I didn't reduce that too far and I'm open to correction. Lagarde says that for two -sex reproduction to have gotten started, you would have to have a male and a female fully equipped to reproduce at the same time.

01:24:43

I want to play devil's advocate, which Mormons would agree I am good at.

01:24:49

Would it be a reasonable theory that males of a species develop sex organs, penises in an evolutionary process, and then one of them met up with a member of his species which had a birth defect like an egg -bearing vagina and the rest is history?

01:25:07

Or did Lagarde cover this issue in the book and I missed it? Of course, for this theory to work, all species would have had to have the same happy accident or some other explanation, and that explanation was grotesque enough.

01:25:23

But anyway, if you could answer our friend Lataine. Well, first of all, you need to have her on there for her,

01:25:31

I think, just the best book she's ever written is A Conspiracy of Breath. Yes, I had planned to have her on to describe or discuss that as well.

01:25:40

Yes, she's one of the hidden treasures among all of our Christian writers, but for Lataine's question, let me just say this.

01:25:49

First, we'd have to have a species in order to have a male of that species with a male penis and so forth.

01:25:59

You'd have to have a species, and the problem is that you can't have a species unless there are two, a male and a female.

01:26:07

A former Mormon ought to recognize two by two, that's Mormon way, even though it's not male and female, but they go out in twos, but there has to be a male and a female in order to have anything that could be even remotely described as a species.

01:26:24

And then the second thing is, if we're talking about a penis and vagina, in my book over and over again,

01:26:32

I'm very frank to say that if you just think about it, half a penis, half a vagina in a gradualistic process doesn't get you to the next generation.

01:26:44

It doesn't get you to the first fully functioning, operating male organ or female organ.

01:26:51

And if you don't have the fully functioning male or female organ, I'm not talking about the size or anything like that,

01:26:59

I'm just talking about whether it can actually function in the way that it's meant to function. If you can't get that in the first generation, then you can't even get something that you could call a species having that kind of reproductive equipment.

01:27:14

And then of course, Latane is absolutely right, that for the grand theory to work of micro -demand, common descent and so forth, then all of millions of species would have had to have the same happy accident, as she puts it, or some other wild explanation.

01:27:32

And again, the evolutions don't even touch this entire problem, they don't even address it.

01:27:40

Well, thank you so much, Latane, and keep your eye open for an updated calendar, interview calendar, so we can get you back on Iron Trip and Zion Radio very soon.

01:27:51

And since you already have Lagarde's book, we will save this copy for another listener who writes in with a question.

01:27:59

And we will get to you who are waiting to have your questions asked and answered right after this final station break.

01:28:06

And if anybody else wants to get in line, speak now or forever hold your peace by sending us an email, because we're rapidly running out of time.

01:28:12

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

01:28:19

And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence. If you live outside the

01:28:24

USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back with Dr.

01:28:31

F. Lagarde Smith and Darwin's secret sex problem. I am

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we are now back with the final 24 minutes or so of our interview with dr f lagarde smith and we are discussing his book darwin's secret sex problem exposing evolution's fatal flaw the origin of sex and our former questioner or a previous questioner i should say latane scott assured me that you two did not collude beforehand on your promotion of her book conspiracy of breath i've already spent the money sent me we do have uh john and bangor maine who says are there any theistic evolutionists who at least do not believe that all of life came from a a single origin and therefore god created some kind of ape -like creatures that eventually evolved on their own into humans and therefore the sex issue would not be a dilemma in their theory but i don't even know if such theistic evolutions exist well i'll tell you what's really interesting about this is that uh what they all agree on is that adam and eve whatever that means did not come about as a single from scratch instantaneous couple that through a process of evolution from microbe to hominids or hominins that god allowed a natural process to take place so that the sort of pre -human form of humans was the result of a natural process and then at some point god did something that he had never done before which is to step in superman likes with this a bullet uh coming in and making man in his image with a spirit that had spiritual consciousness now i'm choosing words very carefully here because it's at that point that there is wide wide divergence there are some who believe that uh god swept down and made out of all of these pre -human human ends or hominins or hominids uh that's pronounced and spelled variously by various groups but that that god chose among them two individuals one the historical adam of genesis and two the historical eve of genesis john walton in his book i think uh takes that sort of approach uh lost world of genesis one is his um the uh people like uh uh lamarow uh dennis lamarow a more radical uh evolutionary creationist uh would say that god created uh maybe thousands of adams and eves uh when you get to uh dennis venema and scott mcknight's uh a book uh they talk and that's uh adam and the genome uh dennis venomous says that it is impossible for the human race to have descended from genesis famed first couple since thanks to the human genome project and its interpretation we now know for absolute certain that we descended from no fewer than 10 000 hominins cum humans some 150 000 years ago and this is someone who says he believes in biblical creation uh but so some of them believe that there were uh many adams and eves uh some believe that uh like scott mcknight uh that uh the adam and eve of genesis was only a archetypal uh uh figure not uh to be taken literally just archetypal um and uh all the genealogies that we see in scripture are just an extension of that storyline but we're never meant to be actual factual historical uh reference to individuals uh leading back to a single couple adam and eve and so forth so there's wide divergence as to that first couple uh and i just want to break away at one point here and say you know the thing that intrigues me the most about all of these things all these different theories is that that i i've read them all i think and you almost never see the word soul you see a spirit you see the image of god you see moral consciousness but the word soul is not there and to me that is incredibly telling about uh how awkward it is the position that they're taking that god stepped in at some point you know otherwise natural process and would be never interfered but they know they know that that they've got to get god in there some way they know that they've got to get humankind in there some way made a little lower than the angels they've got to do it and so they say god stepped in and various kinds of explanations that they give and there's no agreement on that but they step in it finally they step in there and say that yes god created the humans that we are today but they don't mention soul isn't that interesting yeah definitely uh john you have also won a free copy of darwin's secret sex problem exposing evolution's fatal flaw the origin of sex and please make sure that you give us your full mailing address in bangor maine so we can have cvbbs .com

01:41:59

ship that out to you actually john's our first winner and we now have bobby in hartsdale new york who asks when the rubber meets the road why is this issue so vitally important is this merely just ivory tower discussion that people can disagree over behind the privacy of closed doors without it having any impact on human life and faith or is this something that radically disrupts the true faith of christianity and the gospel oh i love this give me another hour chris give me another uh let me approach it on on uh two bases uh one i'll dispense with more quickly hopefully and that is this it certainly matters to scripture because once people try to forcibly shoehorn bad science into the genesis story in order to accommodate evolution and somehow another make it fit with the the story that is more traditionally understood as being instantaneous creation once they do that i think ken ham even mentioned this they have to keep the ball rolling from genesis 1 2 3 4 all the way through the flood to genesis 11 uh the the scholars the religious scholars esteemed religious scholars who are buying off on this are telling us that genesis 1 through 11 are not actually historically true now i'm open to historical narrative i understand that i think job is a good illustration of it and so forth you don't have to take everything with wooden literalness any more than when you go to a movie about the normandy landing say you don't have to say a movie about it has to be exactly factual but it's based on historical fact we all understand that but that's not what they're saying they're not they're not saying it's based on historical fact they're saying it's not historical fact our religious scholars are saying that and so once they do that because genesis 1 through 11 provides the foundation for matthew through revelation then you have torn up the fabric of matthew through revelation and you start having to do theological gymnastics to get paul saying things that he doesn't say to get him to say things that are opposite of what he says and even jesus to turn jesus words into something that that's just incredible uh and and let me just give you a quick illustration from nt wright because he's he's so highly respected by so many people but in a uh in a recent uh uh presentation on it was on a popular level before by logos audience uh he argued that words from jesus own mouth help us to see creation not from the usual starting point of it of an omnipotent command issuing creator of genesis 1 but rather through the servant -centered loving and generous christ of john 1 by whom and through whom all things were created and and drawing on jesus parable of the seed you all remember that right analogizes that story to the gradual random process of evolution he asked is not the seed sown prodigally with both wastage and fruitful production does it not develop slowly and secretly eventually overcoming chaos indeed this deliberative patient evolutionary process is the act of a loving and generous lord of creation listen to this in contrast to the arbitrary command of some oriental despot demanding the speedy construction of his palace by an army of architects and builders cowering before him i mean goodness to say the least this oriental despot reference is a bizarre brutish characterization of the traditional view of creation you know which we've all taken to be a loving providential god instantaneously creating the universe from scratch right and and then as for the fossil seed analogy with evolution i tell you it works fail even for me an author it can't be serious theology and one shudders to think what the lord of creation must think about this brazen misappropriation exploitation of his kingdom teaching so once it does make a difference it makes a difference to even how we view the inspiration of scripture because once you go down the line of forcing evolution into genesis you are kicking over a domino that doesn't end until it gets to the end of revelation and it in the inspiration of scripture is what's at stake here so that's the first answer the second answer is is broader and that is i mentioned it earlier that the social and moral and ethical implications of evolution theory it is a theory without god it doesn't need god it doesn't heed god and because of that inherent within evolution is a philosophy it is not without a philosophy it has a philosophy and that is it's godless it's valueless it's purposeless it's meaningless and you get that message out there to enough young people in our generation and hey young people it's people my age in the 70s who have bought off on evolution even as christians even as christians and they don't understand why society's falling apart you know we took god out of the classroom and and we all said well it's because we're not praying to god in the classroom anymore we're not you know recognizing god in the classroom anymore no that's not the real problem that's not the problem the problem is that in the classroom we have denuded the whole concept of god because we're teaching evolution chance existence through evolution meaningless existence through evolution and if you try to pack meaning into evolution the only way you can do it is to come back through some other avenue and that avenue from our perspective as believers uh is of course the bible it makes all the difference in the world to cultural even political even economic and social issues but i have no opinions about this can you tell oh sorry i get worked up on this it's just outrageous ah that's great well uh believe me lagarde uh i much prefer a guest like you who speaks freely than somebody who i have to pull teeth getting trying to get them to talk um in fact um i uh i i remember when i was interviewing brad harob who's a christian creationist and young earth proponent and advocate uh he um uh he what i was telling him that when i saw jeffrey dahmer's uh testimony on tv when he was being interviewed before he was murdered in prison uh he had uh professed to become a christian and he said one of the reasons why he found killing human beings uh an easy task or at least it became easy was because he viewed them as no more than evolved animals and uh now i'm not saying that every evolutionist is going to become a serial killer on that right right but but it does it actually gives a dilemma to the especially the godless evolutionist because as uh david silverman the president of american atheists admitted when i had arranged a debate between him and my friend dr james r white of alpha and omega ministries on is the new testament evil which was the theme of the debate uh david silverman was backed into a corner when when dr white uh said to him that if you were to be marched through the gates of a death camp would the would the best argument that you could come up with against what was happening to you that you found this to be personally offensive and david silverman who is an ethnically jewish atheist said yes because he knew that he could not say as an atheist that there are absolutes when it comes to right and wrong yeah i'll tell you uh i don't like to bring this up because uh it it uh distracts people from the scientific argument that i'm trying to make in the book but as long as we're talking about the implications of darwinism social darwinism is directly responsible for much of the thinking of uh nazi germany uh and the holocaust even the experiments they were doing on people uh but certainly the survival of the fittest and getting rid of the jews in order for them to be the the the finest and the fittest uh superior race and so forth all that thinking played into the hitler uh notion uh but let me pull away from that for just a minute and say that someone far from hitler let's talk about c .s

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lewis for a moment c .s lewis had a real conflict he he had sort of bought off on darwinian evolution uh and and was reluctant to abandon it but even he said the story the romanticized story of evolution is morally bankrupt uh and uh deleterious to social norms and so forth uh and in the end uh he was receiving a lot of information about even the science of evolution and and finally i think he did come to the conclusion and this is arguable because people on both sides want to own c .s

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lewis uh but i think uh c .s lewis came to understand that he couldn't separate out the philosophy and the science of evolution from uh each other yet they go hand in hand uh and finally he realized that even the science of evolution was suspect uh he i don't think he ever figured it out he acknowledged that he didn't uh he's got uh some uh fantastic uh quotes though this is the one where he he lampoons darwin's inherent purposelessness he had this little ditty that said lead us evolution lead us up the future's endless stare groping guessing yet progressing lead us nobody knows where he understood that that the philosophy behind it uh is absolutely devastating to any culture we have excuse me we have a little difficulty there uh we have uh lou in sharpsburg georgia who asks uh do you know where tim keller stands these days on genesis 1 through 11 i do not personally i do not yes well uh unfortunately it is very clear and this is not something that uh tim keller hides he is certainly a theistic evolutionist and he is a chief proponent of that biologos that you were discussing earlier oh is he that's not on my list but i and i hate i'm very careful not to list somebody in a list that i don't know for sure on but uh if if he is then then yeah i mean he's if that's the case uh he's he's bought off in a lock stock and barrel as well well thank you lou and you have won a free copy of darwin's secret sex problem by dr f lagarde smith so please send us your full mailing address so we can have this book shipped out to you by our friends at cvbbs .com

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and i'd like you lagarde now to have about four minutes uninterrupted to summarize what you most want etched on the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air great i appreciate that by the way i i've done a senior moment kind of thing there tim keller is in my list as a biologos endorser uh so yes that that confirms that um let me let me just say that this book is unique among all of the other books that would be supportive in the end of creation traditional view of instantaneous creation but i'm desperately trying to make an argument that does not require anyone to even know the bible to have read the bible to know anything about genesis or the arguments about the days or the links or any of that what i'm trying to do is as kim hann said earlier i'm trying to talk to people in a secular society who don't know their bibles who would not be persuaded by any biblical argument i'm trying to say that just look at the science the science itself has a flaw in it that is a fatal flaw there are many of them but i don't know any of them that is so demonstrably fatal as the inability of science evolutionary science to explain how a gradual theory or a gradual process of natural selection could bridge between asexual replication which we know as mitosis to sexual reproduction which we know as meiosis that is a bridge too far evolutions will say we'll come up with the answer someday we'll come up with the answer someday uh you can't say it's impossible for that to happen you know if we if we say it's impossible for pigs to fly everybody says great we understand that it's impossible for rocks to have sex we understand that the problem with their argument that we're going to find a solution to that someday is that it's one of those things that by its nature is impossible first of all just but by the nature of sexual reproduction and secondly it's impossible by the nature of evolution you know when they say no evolution could not do this in one generation so you can't demand that because that's not the way it works i fully agree with them that is not the way it works and because of the way it does work then the theory doesn't work the theory that we came micro to man because if you can't cross the sex barrier you can't progress from microbe to man and then the second argument is that there are millions of sexually unique species on the planet and for each one of those there would have to be on time fedex -like simultaneous delivery of the first compatible male and female of each species and in my book i outlined the most incredible array of of bizarre sexual practices by organisms on the face of the globe that could never have happened by chance by the even the remotest of possibility to get the first male or female of that species and just think about the major transitions from say reptiles to mammals amphibians to reptiles uh those major transitions could never happen gradually and you'd have to switch off the reproductive processes of one to get to the reproductive processes of the other anybody who is thinking logically scientifically honestly intellectually honestly would have to admit that these gaps cannot be filled by evolution and because of that the grand theory doesn't work and because the grand theory doesn't work we ought to reject the romanticized politicized subsidized and now even theologized evolution story well i want to thank you so much for being our guest today lagard it's been far too long and i look forward to you returning to iron trap and zion radio if anybody wants to find out more about ordering darwin's secret sex problem you can go to lagard smith .com

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l -a -g -a -r -d smith .com and you can also order most books that we discuss here on iron trap and zion radio from cvbbs .com