Is Andrew Tate a Good Example of Masculinity?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the work of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

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We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, should

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Andrew Tate be an example of masculinity? Now Tim, as we kick this episode off, what

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Bible verse do you have for us related to masculinity? 1 Corinthians 16, 13 says,

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Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. There you go.

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Enough said. We don't even need a whole episode. The Bible's got it covered. That's right.

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It seems pretty simple. It seems pretty clear, but if you have seen people's interaction online, and honestly, if you've just turned on the news or just looked outside, if you've been outside, been in public at all within the last couple years, then you'll know that this is not really very clear to a lot of people.

02:32

It seems like there is more confusion than ever when it comes to what it means to act like a man, right?

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Sure. Yeah. But why is there so much confusion? This is one of those subjects that the church really has failed to address for a long time.

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They've just assumed that most people seem to know what this is, which,

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I mean, in a lot of ways, when you read a passage like this, be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. Paul is making a lot of assumptions about things that are very obvious that should be included under that phrase, act like men.

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I mean, there's context clues to help fill in the gaps, and then you have the whole rest of Revelation that really does make it pretty clear what he's talking about there.

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But he really didn't feel the need when he was writing that, be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.

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He didn't really feel the need to provide much clarification because in many ways this is one of the most obvious realities in the world that people should understand.

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If they have eyes. I mean, if you are a parent and you've raised boys and girls, you should be able to have a pretty good answer to this question.

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But for so many years, the church really has failed to answer this question.

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And so what's happened is egalitarianism has made so much inroads in the church at this point.

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And the basic premise behind egalitarianism is the idea that men and women are basically interchangeable parts.

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So there's been so much egalitarianism that has infiltrated our thinking at this point to where our basic – like we've been trained to think that our basic impulses about what makes a man a man, what makes a woman a woman.

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We've been basically trained to distrust almost all of our basic impulses. And so then your standard evangelical pastor today, if they're going to talk about what is masculinity, they almost universally talk about it as a joke.

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So if they're going to talk about masculinity at all, what comes after that is a snicker essentially.

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They're going to snicker as if you're talking about something silly, like you're talking about a joke.

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You're talking about some kind of absurd topic.

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And as I've talked to Christians over the years, if you even bring up that word masculinity, it's almost a joke.

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People will laugh at you. They'll think that you're talking about some kind of machismo or something like that, like the macho man

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Randy Savage or something, right? To make an appeal to characters in my generation or whatever.

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But it really has become a joke. And then the standard Christian pastor at this point, he really is teaching that masculinity is essentially equivalent to generic

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Christian faithfulness. So people, they don't really know how to interact with the title question as asked, meaning like is

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Andrew Tate an example of masculinity? They don't even have the categories to think through that. They look at that and they see an exaggerated form of masculinity and then they just say, hey, that's all bad.

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What a lot of people – what a lot of Christians, their basic impulse is, is to take like the – he would be a caricature of masculinity in certain ways.

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But he's not – like the issue is he's obviously not – he obviously has many masculine traits about him.

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So it's obviously distorted in certain ways. But then they take that distorted form of masculinity you see in Andrew Tate and then they describe all of masculinity, like anything that really could fit under the category of real masculinity, they throw it all out too.

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Then what you're left with is just generic Christian faithfulness. I mean the guys, when they're – pastors when they're commenting on this topic in case after case after case, it just reduces to they give you some definition of masculinity that could fit their wife.

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So it's – they don't know the answer anymore. So whatever Paul meant there, be watchful, stand firm in faith, act like men, be strong, it's been obscured as a result of egalitarianism.

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It really isn't. I mean it's not a hard concept to grasp if you have a mind to try to figure it out.

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For Paul, I mean it clearly is something that should be obvious. It should be obvious to literally anyone with eyes, but then this has become more complicated in the minds of people than it should for sure.

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So this is really – this isn't really a complicated topic. So let's start with the

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Andrew Tate half of this and discuss why – what exactly – you mentioned that he is a distortion of masculinity.

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So what do you mean in terms of he's distorting biblical masculinity?

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Yeah, so I struggle to even know where to begin with something like this.

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There are so many distortions. Where do you start? This is one of those – this is one of those situations where you ask me something like that and then the outline forms in my brain with the ten points and the five sub points underneath each of the ten main points and then

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I'm struggling to figure out where to even start. But yeah, it's – so with something like – let's just start with basic biology.

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Maybe that would help. We could start out with basic biology. So men have testosterone, women – men have significantly more testosterone than women.

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That would be a lesson. Yeah. So men have significantly more testosterone than women.

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Women have significantly more estrogen than men. Then if you observe the – if you observe the differences between men and women, you'll realize that these hormones influence their behavior at a variety of points.

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So this increased level of testosterone in men does result in a lot of what you might describe in terms of the language of stereotypical masculinity.

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So I mean in general, I mean growing up, go to school, there's some guys who get beards quicker than others.

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Yeah. Where does that come from? Well, it's coming from this hormone. So there's facial hair.

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Does not nature teach that facial hair is a sign of masculinity? Yes. Does the

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Bible teach it? Yes. Now you can describe that in scientific language and you'll be pointing to some kind of hormones.

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So deep voices in men, facial hair, recklessness in general.

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So you observe the differences between boys and girls. Boys are going to give themselves over to much more dangerous objectives than their sisters are.

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There's a reason there's a saying, hold my beer. Yeah. Florida man exists for a reason.

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Florida man. The internet, yeah, if you look at YouTube, YouTube is predominantly masculine.

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And if you can imagine the kind of things that you see on YouTube, I mean YouTube is characterized by all the stereotypical qualities that attract men in general.

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But there's a lot of jokes. There's a lot of humor. There's a lot of feats of strength. I mean you see a lot of guys jumping over cars and doing reckless things.

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So I think the internet exists to produce that one picture of the black guy in the jumpsuit, karate kicking the alligator in the face.

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But yeah, I mean, stereotypical masculinity is going to revolve around the strengths of men in general.

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And men are made to be strong. Men are made to be courageous and they've been given an abundance of courage in comparison to men or in comparison to women.

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And at this point, they're going to have an excessive interest in sex. A lot of that is tied to their hormones.

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Men think about sex a thousand times, young men with normal testosterone levels think about 6 ,000 times a day.

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That's part of that's related to their hormones. So like a desire for female beauty mixed with strength, mixed with courage, mixed with confidence.

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You think about all the alpha male discussions out there in the world. Who is the alpha male?

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Well, the alpha male is the guy who has a lot of confidence. Who are the kinds of guys who typically get women? They're the kind of guys with a lot of confidence.

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So a lot of these traits, strength, courage, the desire for competition.

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So men compete in the world. Typically throughout most of history, their competition resolves around feats of strength in order to win reputation, win the hearts of women.

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Women are made in order to prioritize status in the opposite sex way more than men do.

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Men don't care about that as much. They care about beauty. They care about the corresponding feminine traits, but yeah, they're hardwired to compete.

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Feats of strength, confidence, all that kind of stuff. So a lot of that is just the core of what makes men, men.

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So these are the kind of distinctions that most evangelicals can't make anymore.

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So what they've done is they've taken masculinity. They take all those things directed towards evil ends and then throw it all away.

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And then what they're left with is just, what does it mean to be a man? Well, it just means generic Christian faithfulness. That's all it means, just a guy who obeys

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God. But the issue is you obey God as a man and way different than you do as a woman.

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So all these things that guys like Andrew Tate have, like leadership, strength, courage, decisiveness.

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He doesn't have an excessive concern for how women think about him.

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You think about, those are the kinds of traits that are necessary in order to even be attractive to women.

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Like if you're a kind of guy who is excessively concerned with what women think about you, the internet has slang words for this.

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You're a simp, right? I mean, there's nothing less attractive to a woman than a guy who cares too much what they think.

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So you think about that. The Bible even talks about that. Solomon has, in the

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Proverbs, you have a whole book that is devoted to the topic of what it means to, what kind of woman to look for.

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And at the end you have the words of Agur, which his mother taught him. And you see that she encourages him not to give a strength to women.

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So you're not supposed to have excessive concern for what a woman thinks about you in that way, right?

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As if you're going to, as if like the goal of your life is going to be found in the chief objective of your life is to make a woman happy.

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That's not the way it works. Like your chief objective is to glorify God and enjoy him together. But anyways, enjoy him forever. The point here is just to say that there's a lot of things that are just tied to masculinity.

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And a lot of these are biologically determined realities because you're living in the world that God made.

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So God designed men in a way that's in contrast to women. And he's like, you know, you can look at how they're different.

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And a lot of the ways in which they're different, they're different because they're designed for different purposes or to design for different tasks.

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So someone like Andrew Tate, yeah, all that. He has a lot of the qualities of stereotypical masculinity.

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And the issue is biblical masculinity is not taking all these stereotypical qualities of masculinity and declaring them evil.

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The point is that biblical masculinity, biblical masculinity and distorted masculinity, it shares a lot of the same subset of qualities, like what makes men a man, a man.

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The issue is a, a biblical man is going to direct those stereotypical qualities towards the right objectives.

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And then a worldly man is going to take those qualities, same qualities.

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It's the same subset of things and direct them towards worldly self -centered ends. So you look at someone like Andrew Tate, like he has the qualities of masculinity in large measure.

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They're not saying like it's a perfect set, but then he's directing them towards selfish ends.

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That's the point. Right. Right. So it's not like he, he doesn't have the traits. He has the traits by and large, you know, no one has it perfectly, but he has the traits.

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It's just that he's directing them towards the wrong ends. Okay. And do you,

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I mean, what examples of that come to mind? Yeah. I mean, he's an

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MMA fighter, so he's a guy who is, is he really? I didn't know that.

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Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know he was an MMA fighter. Yeah. So he has strength.

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He has courage and he has confidence. He has leadership skills that are obvious.

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Like he's leading a generation of men. Right. So he has leadership skills. He has strength.

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He has courage. He has confidence. He's not mentally weak.

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He's not a mentally weak. So he has fortitude. So not only does he have physical strength, but he has mental strength.

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So all of these things are things that the Bible would describe as what makes a man, a man in very explicit language.

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So he has all those. The point is he's directing them towards prostitution rings that he's developed in order to depress women.

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You know, I mean, he's gotten to a point right now where he, he, he, he so despises females to the point where, you know, he'll make jokes about people who are married as if they're by definition, simps.

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But you see what I'm saying? Like he, he has the trait, like he has a neutral kind of traits that he needs.

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He's just directing them all in the wrong ways. He's directing them to basically prostitute women, to sleep with women to, you know, insult women in that way.

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So essentially not, you know, he's, he's taken them and directed those attributes in such a way that he has the wrong ends.

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He's pursuing the, you know, the things that God says are unrighteous, they're unfruitful.

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And then he is mocking the things that God has said are righteous and, you know, do provide good fruit and blessings to those who do pursue them.

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Is that kind of what you're getting at? Sure. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I don't think what you don't want to do is you don't want to take biblical masculinity and then make this hard contrast between that and worldly masculinity, right?

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Like the issue is masculinity is masculinity is masculinity. It's just, there's not really a biblical version of it.

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As crazy as that sounds like mask. Like meeting, like just think about it for like masculinity is the traits that are associated with being a male.

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Right. So, I mean, yeah. Like, like we, we would look at a guy like, you know,

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Arnold Schwarzenegger and we would just not like the natural conclusion would be like, he's a man's man just based off of the way that, you know, he looked like he just looks like a man.

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He obviously does not look like a woman, right? He sounds like a man, you know, he carries himself like a man.

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And so you would look at a person like him and say, yes, he, I mean, he's obviously not feminine.

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Right. Is that, is that kind of the idea you're getting at? I mean, yeah. If you're just thinking about it in terms of anatomy.

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Yeah. I mean, that was an overly physical example, but no, no, but I'm saying, think about it in terms of anatomy for a minute.

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Okay. Like men have different parts than women have. Right. So you, you wouldn't want to say like biblical breast in women versus.

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Sure. It doesn't even make any sense. Do you see what you see what I mean? Like it's, it's not like, um, that's not the way it works.

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So like when a man is castrated, what do we call it?

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That he's emasculated. Yeah. Right. He's not sure. Like, so like he's biblically, he's biblically emasculated or he's morally emasculated.

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Like, none of that makes any sense. Like masculinity is masculinity is masculinity. You can direct it towards godly ends, or you can direct it toward itself.

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I can direct drugs, godly ends or ungodly ends. Andrew tapes, uh, an example of a guy who has a lot of masculinity period.

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He's directing it towards the wrong ends, you know? So, so once you, like the issue is you want to define it.

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Based on biology is what you want to do. And it's not, I'm not, I'm not saying biology first.

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I'm trying to say, if you read the scriptures, you'll see that the scriptures are defining it on the basis of biology.

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Okay. So for instance, be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men be strong. What you have there is you have like the phrase, be strong, like be watchful, stand firm in the faith.

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Think about everything that's put alongside act like men. So being watchful, being prepared, standing firm in the faith.

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What are men in contrast to women, right? Men in contrast to women are filled with muscle, right?

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So you have like, there's like the idea of standing firm is something that is totally characteristic of men, um, in every way you can imagine.

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Like meaning like men are not designed to be pushovers. There is like, when a man is designed to, when you try to push him, he's designed to stay, you know, in a way that a woman is not designed to because she's not filled with the same kind of physical strength.

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So notice be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men be strong.

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What is it that makes a man a man? A man is a creature of God who has two and a half times the upper body strength as a woman.

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Like a man, men are made to be physically strong. They're made to be mentally strong so much. So that, you know,

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Isaiah in Isaiah, 1916 adjustment against the Egyptians would be that in that day, the

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Egyptians would be like women. What does that mean? They'll tremble with fear before the hand that the

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Lord of hosts shakes over them. Like meaning they won't have courage. Like the typical courage that's associated with masculinity.

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What is it mean to be a man? It means to have physical strength and it has mental strength. That's what it means.

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If you want to know the biblical definition. So I'm giving you a biblical definition of masculinity here.

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It's the same definition that the pagans understand, because when you're asked, when you're answering that question, you don't really even need the

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Bible to answer it for you. I'm not saying anything blasphemous. I'm just trying to say, God made two different types of creatures, men and women.

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If you want to know what it means to be a man, look at the differences. They're obvious in nature. That's the point.

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They're obvious in nature. So the Bible is just telling you what God did. Right. And you already have eyes to see.

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You should be able to tell like your boys have more courage than your girls. Your boys are more destructive than your girls.

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Right. Boys think that. Like playing means blowing things up and fighting. Girl. Girls think playing means being nice to each other at night, everyone being nice and, you know, ends up getting in a relationship, you know?

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So when I play with my daughter, all the stuff, animals end up getting married. When I play with my sons, everything dies.

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You know, everybody blows up. Now. The point is just to say that men are designed for war.

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You know, they're designed for protection. They're, they're, they're given muscles. They're going to use them. You can use them in a righteous way.

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You can use them in an unrighteous way. You know, so you have a generation of preachers come along who don't, they don't understand basic biology and they're trying to define biblical masculinity as obeying

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God. And it's like, no. Men obey God, women obey

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God. Okay. So obeying God can't be what it makes my man, a man. Because that's what also makes a woman.

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Because in that case, that would be the same thing that makes a woman a woman. Like the issue is as a man,

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You obey God according to your design as a woman, you obey God, according to your design. So yeah. He has a lot of the traits that come from high testosterone.

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You know, He's using them to he's using them to prostitute women. He's using them to run his mouth.

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You know, and he can, he can run his mouth and, you know, get away with it because a lot of people are afraid of him, you know, but like the point there's, he's using that courage.

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He's using that strength. He's used it to make a lot of money in the world, to get a lot of status in the world, a lot of recognition in the world.

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And that's obvious because you're just, you're working according to your design, but he's just using it towards evil ends.

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And so that's not what Christians should not use there. Okay. There's their masculinity towards evil ends.

25:12

Yeah. Yeah. And I think you do see a lot of Christians that come along and they see guys like Andrew Tate and they recognize rightly that he is, he is, you know, turning and using his masculinity for all the wrong ends, for all the wrong, you know, purposes.

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Like you mentioned the, the prostitution, the, you know, insulting other people you know, like rejecting his own children and refusing to take care of his family mocking things like the nuclear family and mocking those that pursue things like that.

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And so you have guys that see him doing that and they know they need to reject him.

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And so in response, you know, they'll, they'll say, they'll say things that are really responding. It seems like they're really responding to Andrew Tate, but then they're speaking generally about masculinity.

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And, and so, you know, you had sent me this tweet. I won't pull it up on the screen, but I will read it.

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And it's from Gabriel Hughes, Pastor Gabe on Twitter. And it says, you know, good examples of masculinity for young men do not include braggarts who lift, get girls, own 20 guns, can skin a bear and drive loud cars.

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Look for the simple man at church who has loved his wife and children for years, knows

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God's word and faithfully works hard to God's glory. And so you see these people that are kind of responding and saying,

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Hey, we've got to get people to understand the right kind of masculinity and that's their response. You know, so, so what is your, what's your takeaway from guys like him and the response that they're giving?

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Do you think it's a satisfactory response or do you think it's unsatisfactory? No, it's yeah. It's a horrible response.

27:06

I mean, there's nothing good that happened in that tweet at all. Okay. Well, why do you say that?

27:11

Why do you think there's a total waste of breath? Like he just, well, he probably didn't breathe it.

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I mean, he probably just tapped it on his phone. Yeah. I mean, he, a waste of fingers would have been better for him to never send that tweet, you know?

27:29

I mean, it's just nonsense, man. It's nonsense. I read it, read it again. Read the second part of it. Yeah. The second half of it said, look for the simple man at church.

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All right, let's do this. Let's do a game here. Okay. He's defining masculinity, right?

27:45

So look for the simple woman at church. Go ahead. All right. Who has loved his wife and children.

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So look, look for the simple woman at church. Who's loved her husband and children knows

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God's word, knows God's word and faithfully works hard to God's glory.

28:03

Faithfully works hard to God's glory. There you go. You see how like you you've given a definition of mask example of masculinity to look for that has nothing distinctively masculine about it.

28:17

Right. Yeah. I guess, I guess the only distinction being, you know, if you were to say it about a woman, you would say husband instead of wife.

28:24

Yeah. I mean, but there's nothing masculine about it. You're not pointing them. Like basically what you're doing is you're, you're, you're criticizing.

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This is what you think is stereotypical masculinity. So read the first part again.

28:40

So it's not the braggart who lift weights and yeah. Good examples of masculinity for young men do not include braggarts who lift get girls own 20 guns, can skin a bear and drive loud cars.

28:55

I see. So like what you're, what you're doing at that point is this is a game, right? Like this is a game that you're, you're doing.

29:02

So you're basically throwing all that. Like, so you, you, you say, Hey, braggarts who get women who lift weights, who skin animals, like it be a biblical, don't look for that guy as the example.

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So all those things are the things that are going to attack. So typical men are the kind of guys who want to lift weights.

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Typical men are the kind of guys who do have an interest in women. So there's nothing more emasculating for a man than to have no interest in women whatsoever, because they're designed to have interest in women.

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So basically you're saying like the braggart kind of guy who lift weights, who gets women, who skins animals, who does like stereotypical masculine things.

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That's not the good example. So what you're, what you're supposed to do in this calculus is basically say, okay,

29:49

I guess biblical masculinity has nothing to do with lifting weights. Pursuing women has nothing to do with skinning animals.

29:56

What are you, what are you? So we're throwing all that out. Right. You know, he would push back on that and set it.

30:02

Like if you were to say, Hey, I'm being unfair and like, I'm uncharitably characterizing what he's saying.

30:08

He had pushed back on that and he's basically saying, well, I'm only talking about the braggart who does these things, but we understand the rhetorical move you're making here.

30:18

We understand what you're saying. You're saying that biblical masculinity has nothing to do with getting girls, skinning animals, lifting weights.

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It's the, you know, it's the generic guy who's been faithful forever, like who's faithfully worked his job.

30:32

But here's the thing. There's been a whole generation of guys like that who go to church every week, go to their job every week.

30:40

And they're yes, dear men. Right. There's a whole generation of men just like that who don't know how to lead, who have basically like, we have a whole generation of men who have listened to servant leader teaching on masculinity, where we've redefined leadership as service, where they think what it means to be a man is to do whatever their wife says, to do the dishes for their wife every week, right.

31:06

To do all the work that she doesn't want to do, to never confront her about anything. But then, yeah, yeah.

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You faithfully go to church, you faithfully do your job. And that apparently that's the sum total of an example of what it means to be a man.

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But there's a whole generation of people who say, yeah, Hey, yeah. My dad, he didn't divorce my mom.

31:26

He didn't divorce my mom. He didn't teach me what it means to be a man. He worked. He, you know?

31:33

Yeah. He did his job. He didn't divorce. My mom took us to church, but my, my mom ran rough shot over it.

31:41

Yeah. Yeah. And he basically taught me that if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. So you look at something like this and it's like, there's nothing specific about it.

31:51

There's nothing helpful about it. You haven't defined masculinity at all. You basically just said that what it means to be a man is to be a provider,

31:58

I guess. Okay. And I would say, yeah, that's one part of it, but there's a lot more to it than that.

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And the problem is you have a whole generation of guys who think, Oh yeah, there's a lot more to it than being a provider.

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There's something like me trying to be like that guy. Like I'm trying to be like that guy.

32:17

My dad's like that. I'm not saying that for myself. I'm just saying that in a hypothetical sense, you have a guy saying, my dad fits the bill.

32:26

The kind of guy you, you look, you're telling me is example of biblical masculinity. I'm trying to be like him and you know what?

32:32

Women despise me and they don't want anything to do with me. Right. I haven't lifted weights in my life.

32:39

I have a bunch of effeminate mannerisms. Like I, I talk with a lisp, you know, all that, whatever.

32:45

Right. I, I have all these effeminate mannerisms. Girls don't want to touch me with a 10 foot pole and use

32:52

Tate. He seems to have success in this areas that I desperately want to have success in. And you're telling me that, you know, my example is going to be the guy who seems to be leading me into a pit here.

33:02

You know? And so like you think about what he's saying, there's nothing to it. You know, it's basically just a jab at stereotypical masculinity.

33:11

Without any kind of nuance, without any kind of care that's given.

33:16

So you take all these things associated with stereotypical masculinity, throw them under the bus and just tell them, yeah, you should be look, you just look for guys who are just faithful providers, man.

33:28

It's like, you didn't give, you didn't give them any help. You know, they know a lot of guys like that. They know a lot of guys like that. They still don't know what it means to be a man.

33:34

And so you didn't give them any help at all. Their mom could have fit that paradigm.

33:41

You just change the words from man to woman, wife to husband. And that's their mom.

33:46

So they still don't know what it means to be a man. And then you're telling them the only example of someone that looks like a man is, you know, unbiblical.

33:55

So then they're left not knowing the answer to this question. So I think the problem is that you have a generation of pastors like that who really, they just don't know how to answer the question.

34:05

They don't know how to answer the question. So they're giving the wrong message. Well, well think, I mean, just think about, um, you know, a couple of biblical examples.

34:15

So like when you, when you read this tweet, good examples of masculinity for young men do not include braggarts who lift, get girls, own 20 guns, can skin a bear and drive loud cars.

34:25

You know, you have, I mean, specifically, I mean, when I read this can skin a bear part,

34:30

I immediately thought of, um, you know, someone like King David, for example, where he, where he had the bow bronze.

34:40

Yeah. Like he, he was, he was strong. Um, you know, now he might not have looked the part of a

34:46

King, right? Because the Bible tells us that he seemingly looked unassuming for that role compared to his brothers.

34:53

But then he was, um, he was younger at that point. He was strong.

34:59

Um, you know, he, I mean, he killed, he literally killed bears and lions to protect his flock.

35:06

You know, he was, he was lauded as a, essentially a military genius.

35:12

Um, you know, the Israelites would sing about the current King Saul. They would say that Saul had killed his thousands and David had killed his tens of thousands, you know?

35:23

And so, so he, it seems like the things that, um, you know,

35:28

Gabe is, is pushing back on, you know, a lot of those things, someone like King David was think about Moses, for example,

35:38

Moses is given, uh, given specific commands by God and his, and his response immediately is to shy away from those commands because he is not, uh, because he's, he can't speak well.

35:53

He doesn't think he can speak well in front of everyone. And so he, he tries to shy away from the responsibilities being given to him, essentially acting like a coward.

36:02

Um, and at least in that moment, and God rebukes him, right.

36:07

And then has to, has to send Aaron to be, uh, his, his priest, essentially, and his, his spokesman.

36:14

And then, you know, you think about even, even what Jesus does. Um, you know,

36:20

I think it's, I think it's Doug Wilson that, that says the entire, the entire

36:25

Bible can be summed up, um, and the, and the saying, you know, kill the, kill the dragon, get the girl.

36:32

Right. And so it's like this, this idea of, of, um, uh, of overcoming something right of conquering something and then, um, winning what it is that you're, you're pursuing.

36:46

And, and obviously, you know, we're not trying to say that, Hey, God is our boyfriend here or anything like that.

36:52

But it's simply to say that like Christ came along and he, he had a specific goal in mind and he conquered so that he might accomplish the goal that he had in mind.

37:01

Uh, and, and, you know, I, I think you look at, you look at a response like what, what

37:08

Gabe's put out here. And it, it seems like in some ways it's kind of almost, I don't think,

37:15

I don't think he's intentionally condemning any of those ideas, but then it seems like you are, uh, in accidentally condemning the, or at least implicit, you're implying that, you know, you're opposed to some of those ideas.

37:31

And it really what it feels like at the end of the day, when you read something like this, how it comes across is it feels like it's a, a critique of a guy like Andrew Tate himself, but then you're critiquing all the wrong things, you know, except for Braggart.

37:50

Yeah. Except for the Braggart part. Uh, yeah, I think that's pretty, uh, you know, like when you read through the

37:56

Bible, I mean, there's not anything that says like, Hey, part of being a man is, is, is bragging like Goliath, for example, he's bragging, insulting the

38:05

Israelites insulting God. And then God kills him, you know, God kills him basically through David.

38:10

So maybe not that part, but the rest of it, you know, it does really, um, you know, it does really seem like it's just a critique of a guy specifically like Andrew Tate, but then you're critiquing all the wrong aspects of a guy like Andrew Tate.

38:30

So, you know, I mean, you know, now loud, you know, loud cars. I mean, is that like, I don't know.

38:37

I mean, there's like a material, maybe there's like a materialistic comment there that can be made as well, but just in general, the general description,

38:46

I mean, would you ever say that that description fits women? You know, would you ever hear that description and think always critiquing women right now?

38:54

No, you're thinking always critiquing men. Uh, and, and so the general point just being,

39:01

Hey, you know, I mean, the things that we celebrate a lot of the heroes of the faith for, and the things that we see some of the heroes of the faith and other, um, you know, uh, other characters throughout the

39:13

Bible get critiqued for are, are things that, um, are, are masculine and would seem to fall under this list that that gave us put forth.

39:26

And, you know, and, and obviously there is a, there is an aspect of this that's where you do have to ask yourself, well, why did, why did

39:33

David, you know, kill bears and lions? Why did, um, why did

39:38

Jesus come and die and conquer death in the grave? Well, it's because, because of, you know, in David's example, his love for the flock that he was protecting, um, you know, in Jesus example, it's this, it's the same idea, but with, but with people, his love for the church and his desire to see the father glorified.

40:01

And so, so I think, and I think that's kind of what you're getting at is like, is Hey, they're examples of the masculine person who is, who's taking these masculine traits and turning them towards the right things.

40:14

Whereas someone like Andrew Tate, uh, is not at all. Is that fair to say?

40:20

Yeah, that's, I mean, in large measure, that's the point. I mean, what's happened is you have,

40:28

I saw a move towards a specific, uh, kind of strategy that was designed to encourage men who are less stereotypically masculine than their counterparts or whatever.

40:43

So a lot of this is related to certain societal trends that I'm not sure that many people have put enough thought into identifying, but I remember in the early days of TGC over and over and over again, the same kind of moves that gave is doing right now was being made by them.

41:05

And so meaning, you know, what they did was they relentlessly put forward effeminate guys as the examples of masculinity for everyone to follow.

41:17

So you, you think about guys like, you know, Trevin Wax, who is just grossly feminine, like grossly feminine

41:27

Jake meter, you know, guys like Jake meter who is embarrassingly feminine and effeminate that you, that you have

41:38

TGC coming along, basically saying, you know, there's, there's testosterone level.

41:44

This is what's happening in the culture. Testosterone levels are on the plummeting, right?

41:49

So they're plummeting. And you have a lot of, you know, you have a generation of young men who they don't, they're not like other boys, you know, they didn't grow up with, they didn't grow up with dads.

42:02

Right. So they didn't have like an example of masculinity in their life. So you have a whole generation of guys who are, they're not, they don't have the masculine examples in their life.

42:12

Testosterone levels are plummeting. You have, you're living in a world that is relentlessly trying to feminize boys.

42:24

Relentlessly. They're doing that through medication, through all the drugs, where they're trying to drug them into a stupor because they're trying to drug away all their masculine impulses.

42:33

They're trying to discipline all their masculine impulse. I mean the whole education system is set up in such a way to discourage masculinity.

42:41

You know, you have a boy who's sitting there shaking because he wants to be outside, throwing a rock at a squirrel or something like that.

42:48

And you know, you just drug him so he'll sit still because you, you identify, you know, you have a bunch of female educators who are looking at that and saying, that's a problem.

42:58

Right. So there's something wrong with that. He's not very girly here. So you have a whole generation of guys like that who are not as masculine as their counterparts.

43:06

They're not getting the same kind of success and recognition in the world. They're not getting recognition from women because they've made themselves somewhat detestable to women in all.

43:16

I mean, they're right now, guys at this point are crying with the same frequency as women.

43:22

And they don't, they haven't learned that. Like if you weep in front of a woman, she's going to despise you for it.

43:28

But I mean, you see internet story after internet story of guys who are basically saying that the biggest mistake they ever made in their life was trying to open up about their feelings to the girl who's asking her, asking them to do that.

43:39

You know, they, they ask them to do this. Then they break up with them afterwards because they can't handle it or they wasn't there a video, wasn't there a video about that recently where a guy was,

43:49

I, I, Oh man, I wish I could remember it better, but it was something like a guy, you know, uh, an older guy, um, you know, probably 45 or 50 years old and, and he had like a spool of wire and, you know, his wife came out and was asking him what was wrong.

44:05

Cause he was just sitting there staring at the spool of wire and he, you know, opened up and had this, this little monologue about how he's had this wire for 40 years and, and he feels like he's physically, you know, he's at the end of the wire and he feels like that's a representation of his life.

44:23

And, you know, now he's at, at, at the end of all of it and he's just contemplating, uh, you know, everything that he's done throughout his life while using this wire.

44:32

And, and then his wife's response is essentially like a, well you did, you know, you, you had, you had some shirt on.

44:40

I was just really, you know, I was really worried about you. Why are you being so strange right now? And he's, and his response was,

44:45

I'm, you know, I'm never opening up ever again. I saw that.

44:54

Yeah. And there's a few other kind of similar things, but yeah, no, I, what, what, what has happened is

45:01

TGC is looking at a generation of guys who are just, they've been turned into the most effeminate versions of themselves.

45:11

And then at the same time, you know, bullying has become the chief sin in the world right now.

45:17

So you think about all the female sensibilities that are producing the result that bullying is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to anyone.

45:27

And so what you have is you have big Eva basically coming along and trying to tell this generation of men who aren't nearly as masculine as their parents and their parents before them.

45:38

And basically saying, Hey, you know, you're okay just the way that you are. You're a special, unique snowflake.

45:45

You know, you're all right. The way that you are, you know, biblical masculinity has nothing to do with wanting to hunt or nothing to do with wanting to play football.

45:54

You know, I know that you don't like to play football because you're clumsy and you, you never, you know, you pick last, you know, for kickball.

46:03

And it's okay. And God's kingdom, you know, God doesn't expect you to play kickball either. You know? So it's just this kind of move to where you take all these things that are stereotypical identifications of masculinity.

46:16

And you basically say biblical masculinity has nothing to do with any of that. There's nothing to do with any of that.

46:23

It's just being faithful, right? Just generic Christian faithfulness. But then the problem is they, they, they follow that script now for the past 15 years, they follow that script and they're still having no success.

46:38

They're having zero success with women, like at all. You know, like it's just a disaster out there, you know, they get, but then they think, and the one hand like people think that's the message you tell people, but then they look at someone like Tate and they say, well, he's, he has his pick here.

46:55

He must know something that we don't know. And what you don't have is you don't have a lot of pastors out there who are able to see what's happening.

47:06

What's happening is women are hardwired to want men.

47:13

Men are hardwired to want women. You're living in a society right now that is telling women to act like men.

47:19

When women act like men, they become detestable to men. And when men act like women, they become detestable to women.

47:27

And so you look at someone like Tate and you say, Hey, he's acting, like he has the basic traits of masculinity and it works, right?

47:36

It works, you know? And so you don't have a lot of pastors with the sense to be able to identify what is it about that that's working is right.

47:47

In fact, you know, in case after case, if you try to defend that and say, Hey, he's exhibiting a lot of the traits that most pastors today aren't, most pastors who are doing everything they possibly can to keep the peace and not rock the boat in order to keep their paycheck and keep all the ladies happy.

48:06

And, you know, I think the problem is like, you follow that playbook.

48:12

It isn't going to work because that's not the, you're not operating on the basis of the biological differences between you and women that God has hardwired into the universe.

48:23

So yeah, they're looking at someone like that and saying, I want that kind of success. And the problem is, yeah,

48:30

I, you could otherwise, you know, you can otherwise, what you have essentially is you have a generation of young men who are trying to be godly women.

48:49

You have a generation of young men who are trying to be godly, like Proverbs 31 women, you know, and then, and then they're not getting dates, man.

48:57

They're not getting dates and they don't know what's wrong, you know, because all their, their, their Christian leaders have led them astray.

49:04

Like, and that's, that's what it is. So it's not just, it's not just like it, but the problem is they don't even identify that that's what's happening.

49:14

What they think is happening is they think they're just being godly, but they don't realize they're just being godly women.

49:20

You have men being godly women, the women don't want anything to do with them. And then they wonder what, what have

49:26

I gotten wrong? It must be something with tape here. Yeah. The point is not to, yeah, leave the braggart part out of it.

49:35

Still love your, still love your wife. Still love your wife. Love the church. Still go to work, be faithful.

49:41

Yeah. I think hard work and dependability. There's something really masculine about that, but there's also courage.

49:48

There's also strength. There's also fortitude. You do need to learn to control your emotions. You do need to quit being so afraid.

49:54

You know, you do need to have some courage, take some initiative, have leadership potential, you know, all those things.

50:01

Like you need those things and you're, you're not going to get that by looking at a generation of parents who have failed to train the, the next generation in those kinds of traits.

50:14

So, I mean, the, the last generation, the generation he's telling you to look to did a very bad job of modeling.

50:23

Yeah. Masculinity. Yeah. And the, and the fruit and the fruit of it is like, what

50:30

I've seen the fruit of it is you have a bunch of effeminate sons and the ones that don't want to be effeminate.

50:36

They're leaving and they're, they're going to Catholicism. They're going to Eastern Orthodoxy. They're going to Islam because they look at, they look at those things and they see,

50:47

Hey, you know, at least those guys look like men. At least they talk like men.

50:52

You know, I don't have like overweight, long haired guys that look like girls lecturing me on all of the aspects of what a real biblical man looks like.

51:05

Like the, you know, I, I think that's one of the writers at TGC that, that, yeah,

51:11

I couldn't remember his name. Okay. You know, but you don't have guys like that lecturing you on what a, what a man looks, you know, what a man, a

51:23

Christian man should look like. And so you go to all of these really poor examples because those are the only other options in your mind that you, that you see that are prominent.

51:33

I mean, I know people personally that are thinking about making moves like this.

51:38

And obviously there's, there's issues to be had with Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Islam, guys like Andrew Tate.

51:46

I mean, you know, I, I think, I think the people that are wanting to go, you know, turn to those things because they see the issues with, with what real biblical masculinity or what, you know, what masculinity looks like in general.

52:01

And they see that a lot of evangelicals are really weak on that stuff that, you know, they want to go to these other religions.

52:09

And I think they'll realize that in trying to answer one problem, they're going to run into a, you know, significantly larger problems when it comes to the gospel and whatnot.

52:21

But, but the reason they're going there is because you've been weak on all of these things and they, they think there's gotta be something, there's gotta be something better than this.

52:31

There's gotta be a better answer. Yeah. I mean, here, Gabe, since we're beating up on Gabe, we can just keep on going.

52:39

But he, he rejects strongly the calculation that you're making right here.

52:46

There's two, there's two posts that he, that one, one was a post by him and one was something he reposted.

52:53

But I mean, this is just everything wrong with the way current pastors are thinking about this right now.

52:59

But, but he said not one young man was won over by Andrew. He spelled it D -R -O -O -L, by Andrew Tate because he's,

53:09

I guess he has to throw the dad joke in there. Andrew Tate, because the church failed to be sufficiently masculine enough is because having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions.

53:21

I mean, I, there's something about that that I totally agree with. I don't like the idea of blaming people's apostasy on failures of the church.

53:31

I mean, at the end of the day, they went out from us because they're not of us, but they left it may become plain that they are all not of us, right?

53:38

They're not of us. So the reality is that God will save his people. And when people leave the church, you know, they, they may have any number of reasons why they're leaving church, but at the end of the day, regeneration is a supernatural gift of God.

53:52

That's apart from works. God has a plan before the foundation of the world to save some. Now that's not, that's not to say that you, yeah.

54:00

Theologically I agree with that, but then there's provocations for sure. So, yeah.

54:07

I think if you have a pastor out there who molest, you know, 10 young boys in the congregation, they want nothing to do with church again, you know, does

54:16

God hold them responsible for the rejection of church for the rest of their life? Absolutely. God holds him responsible for the rejection of church.

54:23

Did the pastor provoke them reasonably? Yeah. He provoked him recently. Right. I mean, I think in light of this kind of conversation, yes, certainly the

54:31

American church has in large measure been feminized. We don't even know the difference between men and women anymore.

54:38

So I can see how men who are following the playbook that has been given by guys like Gabe, they can look at, they can say,

54:47

Hey, this playbook isn't working now. Certainly if their bottom line is they, they they're out for themselves.

54:56

Yeah. Then they're going to keep up for themselves. A teacher that's going to suit their own passion. Sure. But the part of the problem here is just like the desire to be married.

55:06

That's a godly desire. Yeah. And you're, you're, you're telling them to run a playbook that is contrary to God's.

55:14

So like a quote that here's a, something that Gabe reposted that he thought was wonderful, which is just abysmal.

55:20

But this guy, Rob Brunensky, he said, Esau was a, and I was thinking about like Esau as it relates to what masculinity is.

55:30

We were saying it before, but he was, he's basically saying Esau was a paragon of modern masculinity.

55:36

Harry probably had a great beard. He was a hunter, very manly, not a mama's boy like Jacob, right?

55:42

He's a, he didn't say like Jacob. I added that, but a man's man, if there ever was one, what does the

55:47

Bible say of Esau? See to it that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau. Then the conclusion is maybe those things aren't biblical manliness after all, but you see how this move is just ridiculous.

56:00

It's a ridiculous move. Like what you've done is you've taken ungodliness.

56:06

You have a guy who has masculine traits, who is redirecting, who is directing them towards the wrong ends.

56:13

And then you throw down on those masculine traits as if they're not masculine traits anymore. Yeah. And that's what's so ridiculous about this.

56:21

It's like, look, guys have, you know, to be crass, guys have penises, right?

56:30

I can use that in a biblical way or in an unbiblical way that doesn't change the fact that that body part is a masculine body part.

56:40

So what you don't want to do is you don't want to define biblical masculinity as simply being godliness that has no correspondence to biology.

56:50

Like that's not what you want to do. Masculinity is masculinity is masculinity.

56:56

You can direct it towards helpful ends, biblical ends, or you can direct, you can direct it towards unbiblical ends.

57:03

But here's the point. Like if you don't, we don't redefine the concept of masculinity to have no correspondence to biology simply because some very manly men were ungodly.

57:17

So the reality is there are plenty of very manly men who are ungodly.

57:24

We don't define masculinity on the basis of what a man does with their masculinity.

57:32

That's not the way it works. You know, so like this whole way of thinking is just utterly off.

57:38

So you have a generation of young men who are listening to this kind of thing. And the only conclusion they can draw from that is, well, you know what?

57:46

I guess like, I guess being a man has nothing to do with mannerisms.

57:52

It has nothing to do with having facial hair. It has nothing to do with having a deep voice.

57:57

It has nothing to do with weightlifting, hunting, doing any of these masculinity. I guess what it means to be biblically masculine is just to spend all my time talking with girls and playing with dolls, you know?

58:10

I mean, that's the only thing that you can conclude from this kind of thinking. It's just ridiculous. It's like, so yeah, you don't do anything.

58:16

You reject everything that most men like to do. You reject all that.

58:22

You adopt a bunch of female mannerisms. And then you know what? Surprise, surprise. You don't have any success with the opposite sex.

58:28

And then you think, well, I'm trying to be godly, right? I'm trying to be a godly female in the world.

58:36

So then they listen to Andrew Tate and they say, well, maybe he knows something that these guys don't know because whatever he's doing is working.

58:43

And it's obviously true. It's obviously true. Masculinity is masculinity. Femininity is femininity.

58:53

Look, think about this move the opposite way. There's a whole generation of young women who basically say, hey, you know what?

59:03

I'm never going to be a Barbie doll. Therefore, I'm just going to gain 100 pounds.

59:10

Step one, I'm going to gain 100 pounds. I'm going to chop off all my hair. I'm going to act like a guy. I'm going to talk like a guy.

59:16

I'm going to adopt all the mannerisms of a guy. But then I'm going to be godly because the mannerisms, none of that matter.

59:24

That has nothing to do with true biblical femininity. And so they just make themselves detestable to every man alive because they don't want to pursue that stereotypical femininity.

59:38

But the point is just to say that, hey, look. Look, women are designed for beauty.

59:44

Men are designed for strength. If you're a woman and you pursue beauty, men are going to notice.

59:50

You can pursue modest beauty or you can pursue immodest beauty. Men are going to notice either way.

59:56

But you know what? Like a godly guy isn't going to want the immodest beauty. He's going to want the modest beauty. But if you totally reject beauty, the godly guys aren't going to like you either.

01:00:05

So it's the same thing. If you're a guy who rejects masculinity, period, then you know what?

01:00:14

You're not going to have a whole lot of success in the area with opposite sex for sure. And this will be the last thing

01:00:22

I say and then you can have the last word. But even just going back to this idea that people are leaving evangelical churches to go to Catholic churches or Eastern Orthodox or even

01:00:38

Islam or the Church of Andrew Tate or whatever you want to call that.

01:00:45

Yes, I do think there is an aspect of that that is apostasy. But then

01:00:50

I do think there are going to be people who really don't know as much as they should about those other religions who look at what evangelicals are saying and what they're doing in the church and what they're teaching men.

01:01:05

And they're looking at that and they're thinking to themselves, I'm tired of singing Jesus is my boyfriend songs.

01:01:12

I'm tired of singing songs that sound like they were written by women who have this strange fetish where they want to date

01:01:20

Jesus. I'm tired of showing up on Sunday and seeing men be beat down all the time, held accountable for their sin, which they should be held accountable for their sin.

01:01:32

But then women not being handled the same way, not being disciplined for their sin.

01:01:40

I'm tired of seeing this. I'm tired of being told that in order to evangelize,

01:01:46

I have to get to know them for six months and build up a strong relationship and be friends with them before I can ever do anything so bold as share the gospel with them, because I'm looking at the

01:01:58

Bible and that's not what Jesus is doing. But every time I go to church, this is how

01:02:05

I'm being taught. This is what I'm seeing being done. And this is what's expected of me.

01:02:11

And I'm tired of it. And I see other religions that are not having these same issues. And so I think what's going to happen is you do have, certainly you will have people who apostatize and they use this as the excuse to cover up the real reason, which is they just actually don't love

01:02:29

God and they don't love His commands and they don't believe, they don't have any sort of saving faith. But then I do think you will have people who don't know any better, who probably should know better when it comes to these other religions that leave thinking they're going to a group of people who have it sorted out a lot better.

01:02:48

And so they're fixing one problem that they see that is actually there. But then obviously they're opening themselves up to much worse problems to issues surrounding things like the gospel.

01:03:05

And then they're eventually going to realize those issues and come back. I think they will come back if they're truly saved.

01:03:13

But essentially what you're doing then is, yes, for the apostates, you're definitely giving them a reason, whether you like it or not, you're giving them a reason.

01:03:24

They shouldn't have acted on that reason. But you are provoking them.

01:03:29

But then for the people who leave and come back, you're essentially the reason that they've wasted potentially years.

01:03:40

I don't know that I want to put a number on how long it should take someone. I don't think it should take too terribly long to realize the issues with those other religions.

01:03:50

But they're wasting time now because you've been teaching them really poor things that have influenced the way your church runs, influenced the way that you evangelize and so forth.

01:04:04

I do think while yes, there is that apostate aspect of it, someone like Gabe, if your only response is, apostates are going to apostate, then

01:04:17

I think you're completely ignoring another aspect of this issue entirely.

01:04:24

Do you agree? Yeah, I think I would put it in the language of provocation for sure. I mean,

01:04:30

I certainly have suffered through all the dynamics that you have described, almost the entirety of my experience at church.

01:04:44

The thing is, God's sheep, they hear His voice, they follow Him. So when God supernaturally regenerates someone, you're not going to...

01:04:52

At the end of the day, I see all the problems that you're talking about. I've never joined a false church because I prioritize this missing element that I see as missing.

01:05:04

I mean, I lament all the things that you're talking about, but God's sheep, they hear His voice, they follow Him. The issue is no one can look...

01:05:13

At the last day, none of these guys who followed Andrew Tate or whatever into Eastern Orthodoxy, so to speak or whatever, followed his example.

01:05:23

Not that he's trying to promote that, but followed his example and been led into Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy.

01:05:33

The issue is, yeah, they're not going to be able to stand before the Lord and say, well, it was these sissies, man.

01:05:40

Right, yeah, they're still going to be held accountable. But at the same time, this generation, and this is not what

01:05:46

Gabe is mentioning, which he should, yeah, you have several generations of pastors who are going to have blood on their hands because of this.

01:05:55

And so we ought not to pretend that they won't have blood on their hands too, that they provoke them.

01:06:01

And the Bible uses pretty strong language with provocation like that.

01:06:07

If you cause someone to sin, it'd be better for you that a millstone is hung around your neck and you'd be cast into the sea.

01:06:14

So I do think there's a whole generation of pastors who are causing these individuals to sin and I don't think that takes away personal responsibility.

01:06:27

I just think the moral responsibility for actions is more complicated than what we realize.

01:06:32

But yeah, I think that's certainly true. It's true both ways. And I've spent a lot of time basically saying that you have a bunch of effeminate men who are trying to be godly women and making themselves detestable to other women.

01:06:46

But the thing is, that's a big part of it, but it's not the whole story. I mean, the whole story is in order to be godly, you have to be what

01:06:53

God made you to be. And so much of what it means to be a man is tied up into masculinity.

01:06:59

And the problem is that what you have is you have a generation of pastors who have taken real masculinity, they've thrown it out the window in favor of biblical masculinity, which is basically just generic

01:07:14

Christian faithfulness, man. But the problem is, in order to be godly as a man, you have to act like a man.

01:07:22

To be godly as a woman, you have to act like a woman. So godliness is gendered in that way.

01:07:29

So if you're a guy who has no ability to lead, no courage, no initiative, no fortitude, you've made yourself as weak or weaker than your wife, you're not going to be able to fulfill the roles that God's designed you to fulfill.

01:07:47

I mean, she shouldn't be the emotional backbone of the family. So the extent that you think you're being generic godly, but what you're actually being is you're basically having the strength, the fortitude, the courage, the leadership potential of a standard woman at this point.

01:08:06

So you're not going to be able to be the biblical man that you should be because you rejected the framework, the foundation for that, which is living according to your design.

01:08:16

So to the extent to which you have a generation of pastors who are encouraging men and women to reject their design, what comes out on the other side is obviously not faithfulness.

01:08:29

It's just gender confusion, gender reversal. And the results of that are evident.

01:08:35

They're manifest. But praise the Lord. I mean, obviously the good news is that God has given us everything that we need in his word to know what he's designed us to be.

01:08:52

He sent Jesus obviously down the cross to save us of our sins and to help us to know what it means to live up to how he's made us.

01:09:03

So we need a lot more people who are looking to the scriptures and trying to answer these questions, which he's given us clear answers in nature for sure.

01:09:14

Right. Amen. Well, we've gone long, so we'll wrap it up here. Thank you,

01:09:19

Tim, for answering all my questions related to this and sort of talking us through this issue.

01:09:25

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