July 30, 2020 Show with Angelo Valle on “The Pastoral Theology of John Owen”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 30th day of July 2020 and I was so impressed by a young pastor who

I heard preach not long ago at the installation service of my very dear friend

Pastor Jeff Waddington who was just installed not long ago at an

Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Fawn Grove, Pennsylvania and the young man that I'm speaking of who was among several present who had their own sessions or their own parts of the ceremonies where they spoke among those present were

Pastor Angelo Valli, pastor of Christ Reformed Church of Alexandria, Pennsylvania and today we are going to be discussing the pastoral theology of John Owen which is actually the theme of Pastor Angelo Valli's doctoral dissertation and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Pastor Angelo Valli.

Thanks Chris it's a pleasure to be here with you I just want to make one small note it was the pastoral theology of John Owen was my

THM thesis Lord willing it will be the subject of my doctoral thesis but yes it's a pleasure to be with you thank you for the privilege of being on air with you.

And I appreciate the correction and I am thrilled to have you on the program after hearing you speak that day

I knew that I wanted to have you as a guest as soon as possible and I'm glad that today is the day and in fact we should also inform our listeners we'll give you a heads up that tomorrow

God willing Pastor Jeffrey C. Waddington who

I just mentioned the new pastor at Faith Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Fawn Grove Pennsylvania he will be my guest tomorrow we have not yet settled on a topic but we will have that God willing confirmed by tonight and I will begin to publicize that but Dr.

Waddington is always a fascinating guest on this program a mutual friend of my guests today

Angelo Valli so I hope you make note of that and tune in tomorrow. But before we go into your own personal salvation testimony which is a tradition on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio whenever we have a first -time guest especially if that guest is a

Christian the vast majority of the time 99 .99999

% of the time our guests are Christian but once in a blue moon we have a non -christian guest if they have something to say that I believe is of great value to the body of Christ even if they themselves are not

Christians but when we have a Christian on we like them to give their personal testimony of salvation and before we do that why don't you tell our listeners something about Christ Reformed Church of Alexandria Pennsylvania.

Sure I have been the pastor of Christ Reformed Church the past seven years Christ Reformed Church used to be part of the

United Church of Christ and when I came they had been freshly out of that liberal denomination for several years and so my mission here has been to reintroduce them to the beauty of the

Reformed faith utilizing primarily the Heidelberg Catechism and then subsequently the

Theologic Confession and the Canons of Dort and so we've been hoping to lead men women boys and girls to the beauty of the

Reformed faith by virtue of our purposely expository preaching our robust and unashamedly

Reformed liturgy and singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs and so by God's grace we've been able to send two men out of our congregation who desire to become pastors one of them is in Geneva now in a pre -seminary program the other one at Regent and Lord willing we'll be moving on to Westminster so it's been a pleasure and trial both good in my time here.

If anybody wants to learn more about Christ Reformed Church of Alexandria Pennsylvania you can go to CRCAlexandria .org

CRCAlexandria .org it's such a thrill to hear about a church being rescued from the clutches of apostasy in a false tragically false denomination like the

United Church of Christ which had its roots believe it or not folks in Puritanism and Congregationalism and when you see many churches by the name of Congregationalists not all but many they are tragically among the number of once a theologically pristine churches that were

Puritan in origin who had collapsed into apostasy and leftism and we are always glad to hear about a church like Christ Reformed Church in fact

I've got to introduce you eventually to my friend Ed Boyle who is pastoring

Trinity Christian Church in New Bloomfield Pennsylvania which is in the same basic situation a once in an alignment or allegiance with the

United Church of Christ denomination but having left there a number of years ago and being taken in a reformed direction by Pastor Boyle but I want to give our listeners our email address if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com please as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and even though our main theme today that we are discussing the pastoral theology of John Owen is very specific we will permit questions on a general basis regarding pastoral theology the office of pastor

John Owen in general or even our guest's own personal testimony which he is about to provide or anything regarding to his ministry so let us start if you wouldn't mind pastor

Angelo giving our listeners that summary of your personal testimony which would include your family upbringing what kind of religious atmosphere if any you were raised in and what providential circumstances our sovereign lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you sure so i am a native of brooklyn new york and my family back home we're puerto rican and so by statistical necessity we're nominal roman catholics and so it wasn't until i was born that my parents were born again and they attended faithfully a spanish pentecostal church in the city and so i was catechized there on the lord day but ironically in order to help keep me safe my parents put me into a private school that was functionally an elca school so i attended an elca school with wednesday mass by the priestess on uh wednesday and then uh the lord's day was in spanish pentecostal church and needless to say it was very curious upbringing yeah those are polar opposite things uh if anybody if anybody listening is unfamiliar with that acronym elca that's the evangelical lutheran church in america which is neither evangelical nor lutheran it's in fact you do have a remnant of biblically faithful and even those that may be faithful to the history of the lutheran church but they are a tiny remnant and that is by and large an apostate denomination and uh so just to let you know and uh i apologize uh to any faithful pastor or member of that denomination but i'm sure that you would agree that my description is accurate yes one thing i've noticed is that even though there aren't many godless churches or churches that repudiate scripture of christ in these more mainline denominations that for the most part have departed there are often faithful congregations and even some faithful pastors who are seeking to follow christ and be a faithful witness in the midst of difficult circumstances yes years ago i remember bumping into a pastor at a reformed conference i was attending and he introduced himself as the pastor of an elca church and i said really and you're at this reformed conference and he went yeah i've seen it there are faithful pastors in tech faithful in the episcopal church there are some faithful pastors in the pc usa i mean i don't know how they do it but they had that burden to try and proclaim christ difficult circumstances well i did interrupt you so you may continue on that uh interesting upbringing that you had being in the pentecostal church and yet being educated in a liberal lutheran school sure as many as yorker knows the goal is to get out and so my father sought to have us leave new york city it was very dangerous it was a bad neighborhood and so we moved to the suburbs of new jersey from there we started to attend a megachurch in staten island i was still commuting to this day my father travels from jersey to brooklyn for work but went to an assemblies of god which is a pentecostal denomination megachurch that was very purposely international so as long as there i was catechized in the basics of the faith and really was i believe born again really came to love the study of scripture speaking with people about scripture and it was that opportunity that introduced me to my undergraduate to my school which is the university of valley forge there then it was called valley forge christian college i went to valley forge christian college with the intent of becoming a youth pastor who would spend his days leading youth camps doing nonsense playing games and that was it that was the aim of life if i did that goal achieved but god in his mercy did not grant me my wishes and introduced me to something that would change my life forever which was a new testament greek i had a professor named wesley smith whom my son was named after who just transformed my life introducing me both to new testament greek patristic theology and church history as well as many good professors there as well and that's where my life really began to change i became obsessed with study and history and languages changed my major so that i could do that and while i was doing this i was courting my wife i often joke that i uh didn't sweep her off her feet but instead like a wave beating a rock slowly eroded her away uh until she eventually would go out with me and um while we were there we uh we attended a church plant where we would serve for our four years there we got married and i had some friends who were also theologically focused and we began to hear about this thing called reformed theology from characters like john piper at the time mark driscoll pre -fall i guess pre -lapsarian uh mark driscoll um and then also um studying the works of rc sproul and so ironically it was by virtue of my bachelor's thesis which was on the uh doctrine of predestination and the theology of karl barth that led me to westminster seminary i i don't imagine many people share that same road so it was through there that i became more aware of the reformed faith i went to westminster seminary in philadelphia where my wife and i turned westminster confession of faith larger and shorter catechism into our bedtime stories as we would read them together and discuss do we agree with us why or why not and as we wrestled through that uh we became more and more convinced of the reformed faith um which was very fascinating as we were attending and my wife was on staff at a dispensational armenian baptist church uh very interesting times yeah a very interesting testimony indeed and um well uh this uh topic is quite i think important because pastors today perhaps more than ever uh should have stronger voices giving them counsel and guidance when it comes to the calling that they have than much of what is available in contemporary sources now of course there are thankfully uh many and a growing number of fine bible teachers and exegetes and pastoral examples in our day a growing number of them i could go on and on with men that have even had on this show like john macarthur and r .c.

sproll and many others who i would even consider heroes of the faith but but they are still nonetheless a minority today i believe not only because of uh liberalism leftism and apostasy but even because of shallow evangelicalism uh but john owen uh is a name that i'm assuming that the vast majority if not every reformed listener has some idea who john owen was but there's still especially since i have new believers who do listen to this show and even uh those of other religions uh listening at times uh there are some perhaps even many who don't know who john owen was and why we should even be paying serious attention to his legacy that he has offered uh and left to the body of christ by the grace of god so why don't you tell us in summary who john owen was to begin with john owen is a puritan pastor who lived during some of the most turbulent times of england's history in the 17th century his years are 1616 to 1683 he was the son of a pastor in a non -conformist tradition who was raised in the infancy of puritanism and so he by god's grace was gifted with a brilliant mind and a heart focused on showing people how beautiful the gospel was every single stroke of his quill was designed to show the beauty and the glory of christ hoping that by virtue of his pen and presence especially from the pulpit that people's lives would be transformed to the gospel and anything that came across that against that he felt it was his task and mission as a faithful herald of the gospel to speak out against for the glory of christ and the good of his people yes and uh john owen in spite of his uh high learning his uh really impressive uh history of academic training and the prestige which he enjoyed in theological circles he was humble enough and discerning enough to recognize the gifts of a man with probably an 180 degree opposite background although a man who shared the same faith for the most part john bunyan who and he allowed bunyan uh in fact more than allowed lovingly and eagerly welcomed john bunyan into his own pulpit yes the relationship between owen and bunyan is fascinating you see that owen works hard to try and help bunyan be released from prison but is ultimately also supportive of bunyan's program's progress it's it's marvelous there's this one apocryphal story i say apocryphal because uh i've heard it uh mentioned from other owen scholars if it's not sufficient data to prove it uh that owen told charles ii the king of england that he would give all of his learning up if he could preach like bunyan praise god and what was it that drew your focus to john owen's pastoral theology there are a number of heroes of the faith that uh pastoral theology might immediately come to mind when we remember their lives and legacies uh robert murray mcshane comes to mind uh charles spurgeon what was it about john owen's pastoral theology that immediately uh grabbed your attention arrested your attention and drew you into doing further study and even writing your thesis on this subject well i'm a guitarist i am a huge fan of music and one of the basic ideas of music is if you like somebody find their roots find their influences then you'll find their sound for example i love john mayer so if i trace him i'll find stevie ray vaughn i'll find eric clapp and i'll find hendrix and this is this is not the way i thought you would begin answering that question i'm sorry continue all right theology is a discussion of john's it always seems i went there uh with with owen i loved r .c

sproul sproul introduced me to ferguson ferguson and sinclair ferguson traced me uh tracing ferguson back i found owen uh ferguson did his doctoral work on owen's theology and so that's how i was introduced to him i began reading his uh book on temptation and sin and on the mortification of sin by virtue of the banner of truth very helpful abridged and modernized reprints of owen's work and so as i began to study owen in particular i just became enamored with his ability to see through my heart and call it things i had never noticed i had shared earlier that i was a pentecostal i found as i was i spent i mentioned the guitar to travel the country playing guitar for college and we would go to youth camps and i'd hear the same five sermons every week and i found a deficient pneumatology or study of the spirit so i started reading owen's volume three or work on the holy spirit found to be exciting and riveting and helpful because i wanted to understand what is a biblical doctrine of the holy spirit who is he what is his work and as i began to study owen's pneumatology i found that the reformed faith rather than not having anything to say about the personal work of the holy spirit was in fact more charismatic than the charismatics and i don't mean that in the sense of uh miraculous or extraordinary gifts as much as a greater dependence on the fullness of the personal work of the holy spirit amen i mean reformed christians calvinists if you will believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace we have more of an essential view of the holy spirit's work in our lives than any charismatic or pentecostal because we don't even believe that we can have genuine faith without the work of the holy spirit actually uh revolutionizing and resurrecting our dead lifeless souls that's right we are so dependent on the holy spirit that every ounce of our life as a christian is by virtue of our mystical union uh by our resting and what the spirit is doing it is work in us we celebrate that and that's what owen really highlighted for me the beauty of the spirit as well as uh the reality that we're trinitarian not unitarian as is sometimes the temptation in terms of our views of the persons of the trinity so those would be some of the reasons why i began my pursuit of of owen i also loved um listening to the teachings and lectures of colonel truman i had him as a professor at westminster seminary and thought him brilliant and i thought that he constantly would reference owen or he was writing books and included uh things on owen and so i thought if the people i most respect were dealing with this particular thought and uh it's the allusion a better way to say it then i want to see what he's all about spend some time looking into him and learning yes dr truman is has been one of my favorite guests and you just reminded me that i have to invite him back on this program i'm always fascinated by my discussions with him uh well uh there are duties required in a pastor's calling uh should a man accept the call to the office of pastor and first of all let's start with that there would have been no question likely at all in owen's day about men exclusively rightfully receiving the call to the pastoral ministry this is a exclusively male office am i not correct absolutely uh first tennessee too makes that quite clear as minister of the church god has set men apart for the office of pastor elder i would include deacon as well as teacher well you know what we're going to do so i don't interrupt you mid -sentence we're going to go to our first break right now and when we return i would like you to begin to discuss a vital aspect of the role of a pastor which includes feeding the sheep and this is something that is of primary importance many of us if not most of us vividly remember uh jesus christ's uh thrice uh asking uh questions to to peter uh if he loved him and one of the challenges to peter was to feed his sheep and so we're going to be discussing that when we return from this break this first break if anybody has questions of your own our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris arnzen at gmail .com as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the usa please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away we'll be right back with angel james white of alphanamega ministries here if you've watched my dividing line webcast often enough you know i have a great love for getting bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity and besides that they feel so good i'm so delighted i discovered post tenebrous lux bible rebinding no radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently but i'll give it a shot jeffrey rice of post tenebrous lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan all his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching jeffrey uses the finest and buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors like the turquoise goat skin tanned in italy used for my nestle all in 28th edition with a navy blue goat skin inside liner and the electric blue goat skin from a french tannery used to rebind a reformation study bible i used as a gift the silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art for more details on post tenebrous lux bible rebinding go to ptl bible rebinding .com

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forward slash podcast foreign dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary i'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where i've been invited to speak and have grown to love hope reform baptist church in quorum long island new york pastored by rich jensen and chris for mcdowell it's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of god like the dear saints at hope reform baptist church in quorum who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim christ jesus the king and his doctrines of sovereign grace in suffolk county long island and beyond i hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as i have for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reform li .net

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where you can click support that's ironsharpensironradio .com was your business shut down during the covid 19 pandemic depriving you of earning any money causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income maybe you've had to close your doors for good the good news you thought was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands you filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the pandemic exclusion clause the pandemic exclusion since 2006 most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic do not give up no matter what state you live in call buttafuoco and associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4878 buttafuoco and associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation and they are working with lead council to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims it is the best way for you to proceed there's absolutely no risk to you you do not have to pay them out of pocket and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim you need to call 1 -800 -669 -4878 right now trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest business firms on long island new york are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit buttafuoco and associates here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic call 1 -800 -669 -4878 welcome back this is chris arnzen if you just tuned in to iron trump and zion radio today our guest for the very first time is angelo valley pastor of christ reform church of alexandria pennsylvania we are discussing the pastoral theology of john owen if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal in private matter before i enter into a very important passage of scripture that i began to mention in john 21 starting with verse 15 when jesus christ is asking simon peter if he loves him three times which subsequently enters into a very important aspect of john owen's pastoral theology feeding the sheep before we do that we have a very anxious friend of ours mutual friend the aforementioned dr jeffrey c waddington of faith presbyterian church faith orthodox presbyterian church in fawn grove pennsylvania who has a question for you and this better be good because i have no idea what he's referring to this may be a joke i don't know but who is

Juanista Jeff Waddington is one of my greatest encouragers and part of his encouragement ministry is every morning sending me some absurd picture from bitmoji and a daily bit of encouragement and it began by saying good morning angelo good morning john owen he does some funny it became john owen became john oesta became

Juanista so i am Juanista he gave you a female name he's an absurd and hysterical character yes i happen to be the unfortunate brunt of much of his insane humor in fact he also greets me every morning by text it's something i actually look forward to but uh thank you for wasting much of our valuable time dr waddington that's the question we got from a jonathan edwards scholar okay let me go into something infinitely more important in john chapter 21 starting at verse 15 jesus christ says to peter it says so when they had finished breakfast jesus said to simon peter simon son of john do you love me more than these he said to him yes lord you know that i love you he said to him tend my lambs he said to him again a second time simon son of john do you love me he said to him yes lord you know that i love you he said to him shepherd my sheep he said to him the third time simon son of john do you love me peter was grieved because he said to him the third time do you love me and he said to him lord you know all things you know that i love you jesus said to him tend my sheep uh why is tending and feeding the sheep such a crucial aspect of john owens pastoral theology and biblical pastoral theology i think you just touched on what i i think is the key aspect of pastoral theology so we recognize that the new testament is connected with the old and so this task of feeding um that you're seeing discussed between the lord jesus christ and peter is in many ways a reconciliation of peter to the ministry of word and sacrament but it's not unique to him we would think of psalm 23 in those moments or even jeremiah 3 15 was a key text for owen there says and i will give you pastors according to my heart which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding owen is going to build the entirety i would say of his pastoral theology not from john 21 but from a more aged and seasoned peter echoing the very same ideas of christ to other pastors and elders he repeats that in first peter 5 2 which says feed the flock of god which is among you taking oversight thereof not by constraint but willingly that very passage from first peter is going to be part of owen's short summary of the contents of pastoral ministry again if you're familiar with owen you know that he has this ability to speak and speak and speak but if you want one sentence summary for what owen believes to be the heart of pastoral ministry he writes in volume 16 page 47 the first officer or elder of the church is the pastor a pastor is the elder that feeds and rules the flock first peter 5 2 this idea of feeding them is the heart or foundation for owen of pastoral ministry and every other subsequent duty is a necessary outworking or outpouring of that central act we do have a question for you from harrison in mechanicsburg pennsylvania harris harrison asks i love reading owen but it's not easy do you know of any works republished originally written by john owen that are translated in more modern english so that he would be easier to read sure sure great question uh again if you encounter owen as he was originally published which is done by the banner of truth there is a difficulty it seems that he was more at home in latin than english so if you're looking for something more readable and reader friendly again according to the same publisher the banner of truth has these wonderful books called puritan paperbacks and what they are are classic puritan works that are affordable and they are readable they're abridged and modernized language and perhaps give you some paragraph breaks so you have some sense of hope as you read through the book but there's classic works of owen again six three are the mortification of sin on temptation and both of those books were originally sermons preached by owen to teenage boys at oxford so you know they're going to be practical on those subjects and then his work that i would add is the holy spirit those works are some of his classics of course more can be referenced but they're affordable and available through the banner of truth which i would commend you to look at puritan paperbacks yes they are indeed excellent and if i'm not mistaken one of the first of these puritan paperbacks that i ever read as a young christian was precious remedies against satan's devices by thomas brooks and i remember being struck by the fact that even though these this work had been written centuries before how contemporary the situation of the church in the world that brooks was describing seemed to be it just showed you how relevant many of the writings of these great men from centuries ago have today so their writings many of them are timeless they are indeed timeless the brilliant thing about many of them is that they are sermons which just continues to reveal to us the timelessness of the word of god especially when it's rightly handled and carefully applied by men pulled the holy spirit great well thank you very much for writing in harrison and continue to listen to iron sharpens iron and spread the word in mechanicsburg pennsylvania and beyond let's see here um well before i go to another listener i just want you to move on to the further explanation exactly what does feeding the flock mean that's a great question again we want to look at scripture owen sees himself as the faithful arbiter of the western catholic tradition he's regularly going to involve himself with the writings of the early church of the medieval church contemporaries of his own day but he's always going to go back to scripture and so he again uses first peter 5 jeremiah 3 and john 21 to give us that idea but looking at jeremiah 3 as the chief text he takes that idea that pastors are called to feed god's people with knowledge and understanding this idea is cheaper that they are to feed the flock of christ with the word our job is not to be an entertainer we're not hype men we're not merely to speak a liturgy thoughtlessly which again i have no ill against my anglican brothers i have much love and respect for many of them but he owen is dealing with a unique historical moment and his work on pastoral ministry true nature of a gospel church is in response to some of the church of england edward stilling fleet and his own works there so owen was so focused on the word of god being preached that he said that we are called to lay aside all other employment so lawful so that we would give ourselves to the utmost of disability it was all about the word that it had to be proclaimed it could not be handed off to someone else he was not satisfied to have homilies read or anything like that that the word of god needed to be faithfully expounded and with wisdom one of the dangers he saw was in careless handling of scripture for example if you have a typically immature church you cannot go into the depths of your heart as well some biblical theology reading it verbatim that's something you see perhaps from seminarians who have not learned how to talk to ordinary people yet instead he says you have to meet people where they are and if they are mature give them the the meat of the word if they are young and babes in christ give them milk if you give milk to those seeking meat it's going to be a difficult and harder situation on them and vice versa was also the case the pastors needed to faithfully proclaim the word feed the people of god with the word and to use wisdom using the language of again priests he pointed back to hebrews and showing how the priests were careful in the giving of the sacrifices as well and it's it's a fascinating idea to see this requirement of wisdom and care and caring for god's people those are some of the things that he pointed out my very dear friend uh going back to the early 1990s dr james r white of alpha omega ministries has been known to frequently repeat something that is very true when it comes to the feeding of the sheep he has said what you win them with is what you win them too and he was connecting that with the tragedy of what is has been known as the seeker sensitive movement the seeker sensitive approach to preaching and evangelism where somehow many in evangelical pulpits think that they're going to attract sheep into their midst by hanging sacks of goat food out their windows but that is not what very often happens it does happen sometimes just purely by the sovereign grace of god uh drawing men unto himself in spite of the failures of men but the the subject matter of the sermons and the manner in which christ is preached and that christ is preached uh and the manner in which god is worshiped these are all very important aspects of pastoral ministry are they not because the temptation of many especially those who are perhaps in small churches uh who are desperate to see their numbers grow or even those pastoring very large churches who want to keep their churches large the tendency is to seek to appease the appetites of the lost in order to keep a large congregation or grow a small one and this is a tragedy isn't it that people basically are bowing to pragmatism instead of just obeying god i would agree with that the goal of pastoral ministry is to feed christ's sheep with the word of god it is our job to help the sheep know that they are the sheep and to help the goats know that they are goats if we do that we have a successful ministry building on something you said earlier um again this feeding idea for owen he had five dynamics to it in his writings he said that a minister who is worth his salt would do these five things well one would be knowing the word you can't be useful in feeding christ's sheep with if you don't know what the word is you have to be regularly in the scriptures he said you need to experience the word you have to know for yourself the goals and joys of of tasting and savoring the goodness of god in the gospel he says if you don't do that how do you know if what you're feeding the people is in poison if you're not having it yourself again he said to properly divide the word which we talked about carefully administer the word which we talked about but also one i think is important is to have zeal for the glory of god and compassion for the souls of men if you are hungry to know the truth of scripture to preach the truth of scripture to to catechize people in the truth of scripture but you don't actually care about people you are not a good pastor and that's heavy to think about because it's easy for us especially to grow comfortable with um with our patterns of study and regurgitation perhaps of this thinker and that thought but it's about being hungry for the loss for them to know christ to savor christ to invite them to see the beauty that is the gospel that's that's those are just some of the elements that owen highlighted in the duty of feeding the flock by the word of god we have to go to our midway break right now and please be patient folks because as those who listen to this program regularly will know this middle break is a longer than normal break that we have during the program because grace life radio 90 .1

fm in lake city florida requires of us a longer break in the middle because the fcc requires of them to localize their programming to lake city florida and they air this program twice a day in a pre -recorded format both in morning drive and in the evening so they well we are globally heard commercials they air their own local announcements so please use this time wisely write down as much of the information provided by as many of our sponsors as possible so that you can more frequently and more successfully patronize our advertisers and thereby giving them more incentive and motivation to remain our advertisers which means god willing we will remain on the air for a longer future because we absolutely depend upon the financial support of our advertisers to exist so please do that and also send in questions to angelo valley about our theme the pastoral theology of john owen or about pastoral theology in general or about john owen in general our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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today thank you daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law for your faithful support of iron sharpens iron radio foreign james white of alphanomega ministries and the dividing line webcast here although god has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with pastor rich jensen and the brethren at hope reform baptist church now located at their new beautiful facilities in corham long island new york i've had the privilege of opening god's word from their pulpit on many occasions have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my new york debates i do not hesitate to highly recommend hope reform baptist church of corham long island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught discipled and edified by the holy scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in christ i also want to congratulate hope reform baptist church of corham for the recent appointment of pastor rich jensen's co -elder pastor christopher mcdowell for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reformed li .net

that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of corham long island that you heard about them from james white on iron sharpens iron radio we are excited to announce another new member of the iron sharpens iron radio advertising family banu gadi owner of three new york pharmacies lee's drugs of floral park long beach chemists and prescription center of long island in hempstead banu gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic please contact dr gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media to find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 -354 -2000 that's 516 -354 -2000 or order online at lee's drugs rx .com

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that's liyfc .org as host of iron sharp and zion radio i frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations a church i've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey pastored by alan dunn grace covenant baptist church believes it's god's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world they believe churches need to turn to the bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship god in spirit and truth grace covenant baptist endeavors to maintain a god -centered focus reading preaching and hearing the word of god singing psalms hymns and spiritual songs baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy and sobriety discover more about grace covenant flemington new jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

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solid -ground -books .com and always tell them that you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron trap design radio whenever you purchase a book from them before we return to our guest today angelo valley we have some important announcements to make first of all let me repeat that tomorrow my guest is dr jeffrey c waddington a mutual friend of both my guests today angelo valley and mine he is pastor the new pastor of faith orthodox presbyterian church in fawn grove pennsylvania he's also a jonathan edwards scholar and tomorrow we are going to be discussing the atonement and i hope you tune in for that uh in fact next week mark your calendars as well because we've got we've got an excellent show lined up every day next week but in particular i want to highlight phil johnson since it's been a while since he's been on the program phil johnson who is the most interviewed guest on iron sharpens iron radio in our history he's the executive director of john macarthur's grace to you ministry and he's going to be discussing the stance that grace community church of sun valley california has on remaining open uh during a time when the governor of california is insisting that churches remain closed due to the coronavirus pandemic and has even threatened to shut the power off at grace community church it's going to be i'm sure fascinating hearing phil johnson defending john macarthur and grace community church's position on this and the next day somebody else connected with grace to you uh a very uh excellent uh guest that i've only had the privilege of interviewing once before daryl bernard harrison he is going to be on the program along with his podcast co -host virgil walker we are going to be discussing a christian response to black lives matter and other things hope you tune in for that as well i want to remind you folks that i am going to be manning an exhibitor's booth friday and saturday august 28th and 29th in scranton pennsylvania at the basics of biblical counseling conference this is being held at the high point baptist church which is located in larksville pennsylvania a suburb of scranton and the keynote speaker is the executive director of acbc the association of certified biblical counselors dale johnson they are going to be discussing or should i say dale is going to be discussing some very important aspects of biblical counseling including the need for biblical counseling the definition and goal of biblical counseling progressive sanctification qualifications of a biblical counselor secular and integration theories and what makes biblical counseling biblical there will also be a q a session with the audience if you want to join me there at this conference uh the basics of biblical counseling friday and saturday august 28th and 29th go to biblicalcounseling .com

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chrisarnsen at gmail .com give us your first name at least your city and state your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter fervently praying for the flock is an important duty of the pastor is it not angelo oh certainly it is uh it's it's absolutely crucial as many pastors can identify today that one of the great joys as a pastor at least for myself and a few others i've talked with is during the week actually being in the sanctuary that the meeting house use that language and to be praying for families by name one thing that owen highlights in this particular duty is he says that without prayer nor no man can or doth preach to them as he ought nor perform any other duty of his pastoral office again what we're seeing is for for oh and what we've highlighted earlier the necessity of communion with god himself that without this necessary point of communion everything that's going to flow from a pastor's ministry is futile and profitless because it's rooted in self -sufficiency and not christ again to quote whatever is done without prayer without constant prayer for the church is of no esteem in the sight of christ it's pretty heavy you know we often think about owen in these wonderful academic contexts but we forget about the reality of his devotional primacies amen um let's see we have cj from lindenhurst long island new york cj asks is it not dangerous for pastors to adopt the model of a celebrity preacher teacher lecturer who has little personally to do with the oversight and the lives of the flock they ascend into the pulpit sunday morning and then descend from it when the worship is over barely to have any contact with the flock at all sometimes the excuse of the size of the congregation is given but if a church is very large should they not make sure that they appoint many elders so that they can all have some familiarity and contact and oversight and shepherding to the flock including the one who is known as the pastor our dear brother seems to have a very particular idea in mind uh i would i would begin by saying that the pastor's job is to smell like the sheep right if we're thinking about the reality of shepherding let's remove all the glory and prestige from it you have a person who is regularly in the fields falling in the mud things similar to mud that are not mud and interacting with sheep who may or may not bite him hit him move towards him or he'll have to physically move a pastor who doesn't smell like a sheep it's not a pastor for owen so much of what he deemed as important and necessary for preachers was not only the proclamation of the word but the daily or weekly interaction with his people owen sought to guard and guide the church by means of his pen his presence he did this by writing but also in catechesis he inherited a horrible uh difficult pastorate that had uh well doing a fordham it's one of his earlier pastorates he had failed to uh the church had failed to catechize the people well and so the way that he handled it was writing his own catechisms and then going to personally catechize the people he saw this visitation or catechesis as second only to the proclamation of the word so how can you be a pastor so again using my uh historian or broadly theological hat how can you be a pastor and not know the sheep now to do this from a more experiential angle one of the difficulties i had as a preacher that maybe many of your preachers had during the the covid uh season at its height during march and the first was i had a hard time preaching not because i didn't know what to preach but because so much of my own homiletical process is involving myself with people throughout the week and as you execute the text you execute the people and so how do you know how to apply it if you're not interacting with the people and seeing their needs how can a pastor claim to preach anything well if he doesn't know those to whom he's feeding again to use the example of owen owen said it would require wisdom to know what your people need and how much of it where to go where to push we're not to push if you're not encountering the sheep how are you going to know what to feed them and so yes what he was proposing earlier uh i think was a useful model for the elders to help in the shepherding ministry tim whitmer does a great job in explaining what that would look like in his book the shepherd leader uh that actually leads us to something you mentioned the covid pandemic quarantining uh one of the reasons why it is very important not to i believe not to as a church allow the government to perpetuate uh indefinitely especially the shutting down or the quarantining of members of a local church and not only because it is a violation i believe of our constitutional freedoms of assembly and religion but it's also i i think a in fact it's more than i think i know it's a biblical violation because in doing so you are preventing the flock from receiving the sacraments or ordinances as many prefer to call them out of fear of of confusing the sacraments with sacerdotalism but administering the sacraments is a vital function of the leaders of the church including the pastor am i right you're absolutely right so i'm a presbyterian minister of the orthodox presbyterian church and so when you say things like that i you hear a hearty on them i do believe and owen did that well and someone who argues for the weekly celebration of the lord's supper christ's sheep need to be strengthened by means of the sacraments again the sacraments do not cause faith they strengthen our faith we need to be encouraged by christ in this tremendously difficult um painful costly dark season why would we not avail ourselves of the gifts of god in these moments and that would be my really condensed short take on that i mean we who are reformed as i was saying before we are not sacerdotalists we do not believe that these sacraments or the ordinances have salvific necessity but at the same time we are robbing the saints and very often they are robbing themselves of a vital aspect of the life of a christian by either uh being prohibited from or voluntarily rejecting these two vital aspects of the christian faith are we not i would agree with that what's happened is for many it's become almost like a functional excommunication we have removed ourselves from the people of god and from the gifts of god to use that older liturgical language and i'm curious to see the longitudinal ramifications of this present covid season in terms of how is this going to affect church attendance you know what is church what does it mean to have a service of worship and there's some people who are very serious about not calling uh church via youtube or facebook live it's not a worship service and people are very particular about that and so how do we as the people of god seek to lead and guard and shepherd christ's flock particularly as ministers in the midst of this it can be very controversial it's been curious as i'm involved with different pastors groups and networks how even reform ministers are the same presbytery or the same denomination have varied approaches for the sake of christ's flock and how to care for them i mean it's a very complicated difficult and even sticky issue so another aspect of owen's pastoral theology is making converts uh obviously we who are reformed uh know that in using such language we are not talking about a human being actually uh making a convert because only god can do that we can only plant and water seeds only god can give the increase but explain uh what that actually means when it comes to a biblical approach to making converts you know it's always fascinating when you think about obvious things in this way um there were some heresies in the earlier church that were against marriage and any sort of intimate relations you know what's fascinating about those groups they never really last long uh and the same is true of the church one of the principal ends of the church is to not only uh continue to feed the flock but there's a reality of the conversion of souls a church that doesn't seek to evangelize i mean what is it doing how is it going to persist how is it accomplishing the great commission there is this reality that the church does exist not only to strengthen and feed the flock those who have already been regenerated or sexually called by the holy spirit by virtue of god's predestination but the church also exists to enlarge the kingdom of christ uh i'm not using the language of owen the church exists to diffuse the light and flavor of the gospel to be subservient unto the calling and gathering of all the sheep of christ into his old and so what owen makes clear that one of the duties of pastoral ministry is evangelism is the seeking of a conversion and for owen that's just typical of the puritans it's by means of the proclaimed word pulpit ministry i mean we we so often forget that but that's the big idea there it's proclamation that is the means preaching amen uh strengthening the saints is something vital to the role of a pastor how does a pastor strengthen the saints well it depends on the saint there are all sorts of cases you have various sorts of sheep think about this again in very simple terms you have a sheep that's belligerent how do you strengthen it you have a sheep that's weak how do you strengthen it you have a sheep that's covered in wool falling over how do you strengthen it i think this is the importance of seeing wisdom again wisdom being that which is a dancing in the gray or better said seeking the wisdom of the holy spirit to help guide us and how we're going to care for those and so again pointing back to an earlier question from the man from interest owen wrote those who have the charge of his flock christ's flock under him ought to have a sense of their infirmities and endeavor in a special manner to super them that are tempted again we have to know the needs of the people and we can time with them as we do that we'll understand the various cases uh what's going on in their world and how to best minister and you know if you have someone to be more practical who struggles with guilt you're not going to bring on them the depths of the law over and over again you'll crush a person at the same time someone who is self -absorbed narcissistic and different towards the reality of sin you do have to bring the hammer of god's law so that they will desire christ one of them needs christ in his holiness and his you know supreme judgment and wrath the other one needs christ in his care but both of them need christ and so i would say that soul care is going to require both diligence and patience and wisdom you just touch on on something that relates to a very important other role uh and your description of how the saints are strengthened by the pastors and elders suffering with those who suffer i think this is the greatest failure of the celebrity pastor or the wannabe celebrity pastor the pastor who thinks his only function is to be an eloquent captivating and perhaps even entertaining speaker from the podium or pulpit which is more often better described as a podium or a stage than a pulpit because it's very often not the the sacred desk as the puritans described that that very important piece of chancellery tell us about that suffering with those who suffer why is it such an important function of a pastor there's several ways to do this so i'll start with i think it's the chief end of pastoral ministry even though our dear friend reverend dr waddington asks silly things he often has reminded me he has reminded me most importantly that pastoral ministry is a suffering ministry it's cruciformity we're not looking to be oh peacocks and skinny jeans behind plexiglass sitting on barstools so that we can have the most amount of likes instagram and twitter followers um so we can build on our next generic book that'll be forgotten very soon in your local mennonite bookstore instead we are looking to reflect christ and the first part of doing that is learning to rest in suffering which is horrifying and painful and difficult and costly and often the chief means of weeding out those who have been called to pastoral ministry and those who like the bible but don't love christ and so owen wrote that the seventh duty of a pastor is to suffer with those who a compassionate suffering with all the members of the church and all their trials and troubles whether internal or external this is what it looks like to be a soul caring minister you know owen didn't write from an ivory tower we're talking about a man who lost all 11 of his children and his first wife this is a man who lost positions of authority and influence he was the vice chancellor or vice president of oxford during the reign of cromwell he is someone who was a mover and shaker and who had to regularly extend himself to periods without his family in order to keep them safe in order to do what is right we don't know about that not yet we don't know what it's like to to do that and so i i think this is really important because it provides us this window into how we can love like christ loves and so owen really highlights that he says unless this compassion and goodness does run through the discharge of their whole office men cannot be said to be evangelical shepherds nor the sheep said in any sense to be their own if you're not willing to suffer with your sheep and fight with your sheep then you're just a hired hand and john 10 tells us that that's not what a pastor is amen amen um obviously this is a uh this is hinged on what we were just saying what you were just describing caring for the sick and the poor uh this is something that too much to our shame you have liberals and liberal leftist apostate denominations they are sometimes uh putting bible -believing conservative evangelicals to shame in their commitment to do these things uh and we should never as ambassadors for christ let them corner the market on vital aspects of christian obedience uh we have uh the warnings and james about well thinking that that accurate theology keeps us safe and in good standing with god but this is far from the truth isn't it it is it is sad that so often the church is shown up so to speak uh by apostates what would the church of jesus christ look like if they learned how to evangelize as well as the mormons and jehovah's witnesses what would the church look like if their diaconal ministry was as efficient as those in the more progressive or liberal wing of things that this idea of caring for the poor and sick is again to go back to owen is a chief duty that we are often forgetting the care of the own rights of the poor of the flock belongs also to the pastoral office again this idea is chiefly focused in the diaconate isn't it the mercy ministries where those ordained officers care for the physical and practical needs of those in the church and even those out of the church but a pastor is not above getting his hands dirty or diligently giving his time for the good of others we can never go into that celebrity status in terms of i'm going to live in my study and i'm not going to care about the people it's a real temptation but we can't do it we must give ourselves over to the people amen we're going to our final break right now it's going to be much more brief than the last uh two breaks so please if you intend to send us a question do it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

chris a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com as always please give us your first name at least city and state of residence and country of residence and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter we'll be right back with angelito valley right after these messages from our sponsor so don't go away chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio here i want to tell you about a man i have personally known for many years his name is dan buttafuoco dan is a personal injury and medical malpractice lawyer but not the type that typically comes to mind dan cares about people and is a theologian himself recently he wrote a book titled consider the evidence for the bible ravi zacharias wrote the foreword dan also has a master's degree in theology dan handles serious injury and medical malpractice cases in all 50 states he represents many christians in serious injury matters all over the country dan is an exceptional trial lawyer he wrote the test for the national board of trial advocacy and currently his firm has over 100 cases that have settled for 1 million dollars or more and in approximately 10 different states in illinois his lawyers had the fourth largest settlement in the state's history in new york his case involving a paralyzed police officer made the front page of the law journal if you have a serious personal injury or medical malpractice claim in any state i recommend that you call dan consultations are free there is no fee unless you win dan buttafuoco's number is 1 -800 -669 -4878 1 -800 -669 -4878 or email me for dan's contact information at chris arnzen at gmail .com

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that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of quorum long island new york that you heard about them from tony costa on iron sharpens iron was your business shut down during the covet 19 pandemic depriving you of earning any money causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income maybe you've had to close your doors for good the good news you thought was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands you filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the pandemic exclusion clause the pandemic exclusion since 2006 most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic do not give up no matter what state you live in call buttafuco and associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4870 buttafuco and associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation and they are working with lead council to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims it is the best way for you to proceed there's absolutely no risk to you you do not have to pay them out of pocket and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim you need to call 1 -800 -669 -4870 right now trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest business firms on long island new york are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit buttafuco and associates here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic call 1 -800 -669 -4870 welcome back this is chris arnzen and this is the final segment of today's interview with pastor alan angelo valley on the pastoral theology of john owen if you have a question send it immediately to chris arnzen at gmail .com

and pastor angelo we have a question from john in bangor maine who wants to know do you know if any publisher has in print the duty of pastors and people distinguished by john owen yeah i believe the banner of truth has it published really i think it's one of the earlier rights writings of owen it is reviewing this real quickly i knew that i've seen an independent publisher bring it into print about four or five years ago but i didn't know banner did it yeah banner did it it's in volume 13 of william gold green hardback series it's a very useful work uh it's enjoyable if i'm not mistaken it's earlier writings of owen it's one of the earlier writings that he's coming across just checking my copy real quick i have to use my books uh so that i can see i have all the little details written out here uh it was let's see around 1643 1644 so it's very early um it's some of his earlier writings uh what we were looking at today the true nature of a gospel church the reason i focused on that is it's published for the latter half of his life really for the last two years uh so you really get the most mature budding of owen's pastoral thought but that's a great work too i think it's partly in response to the pastoral mishandling of the church that owen had initially inherited um uh from the chaplain of archbishop william laud uh reverend alice but yeah it's still a very great resource and encouraging uh i think there's a green book on that that's rules for i'm thinking of a different book forgive me but yeah it's available great uh well you can go to banner of truth .org

uh and i would also prefer that you order it from cumberland valley bible book service since they sponsor our show cvbbs .com

cvbbs .com cumberland valley bible book service and banner of truth doesn't miss out or lose anything because cvbbs has to purchase the book from them so please go to cvbbs .com

and ask them for the pastoral theology of uh the duty of pastors i'm sorry and the duty of pastors and people distinguished by john owen uh well i want to make sure that you in our summary when we conclude here uh provide for our listeners what you most want etched in their hearts and minds about this subject before we go off the air i think the most basic thing i want to point out is that if you're going to consider uh some of your heroes in the faith especially one like john owen i want you to consider this very last word this is um a pastoral note that he had uh written for him uh for his long -standing friend uh just days before he died he said i'm going to him whom my soul hath loved or rather who hath loved me with an everlasting love which is the whole ground of all my consolation i'm leaving the ship of the church in a storm but whilst the great pilot is in the loss uh while the great pilot is in it the loss of a poor under rower will be inconsiderable live and pray and hope and do not despair the promise stands invincible that he will never leave thee nor forsake thee the reason i love these words uh some of the last words ever recorded of john owen is it reveals while a puritan theology reading men who who loved god and who wanted the love of god to be spread amongst his sheep and who recognized that regardless of what chaos is going on in the world how uh the church and the state may be at odds or the church may look like it's in its darkest of days christ the great pilot still there and our love is still due unto him and he will neither uh leave thee nor forsake thee that great promise that i would encourage you to consider oh and not only as an academic but as a pastor and to consider the writings of the puritans with such an excellent zeal as well that that would be the befuddled sum that i would put forward well i thought you were quite eloquent i wouldn't call it befuddled at all and uh folks i want you to remember that if you want to visit christ reform church in alexandria pennsylvania and learn more about this congregation you can go to crc alexandria .org

crc alexandria .org and i want to give another reminder uh to all of our listeners who either live in pennsylvania or have the ease of traveling there by train plane or automobile i hope that you join me on friday and saturday august 28th and 29th at the high point baptist church of larksville pennsylvania which is a suburb of scranton for the association of certified biblical counselors conference the basics of counseling featuring the executive director of the association of certified biblical counselors also known as acbc dale johnson that's friday and saturday august 28th and 29th starts friday night and continues all day saturday until 5 p .m

i will be manning an exhibitor's booth there so if you want more details go to biblicalcounseling .com

forward slash scranton dash pa dash training biblicalcounseling .com

forward slash scranton dash pa dash training and you can also go to the high point baptist church website high point baptist church in larksville pennsylvania and that website is highpointbaptist .church