Arnold, Friel and The Land Down Under

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00:02

I've been now involved in four different bills for abolition, Arizona, Oklahoma, Texas, South Carolina are all happening by March.

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I don't know why it was chipmunk speed. We're going to try that again if you're watching. If you're a senator and you're a representative and you do not know you by name, you have not done enough for abolition, that's all there is to it.

00:42

We still live in a nation where it is the easiest, and probably has been in our history, to change the law as a citizen.

00:50

It is the easiest for you. Shame on us if we fail. This is the premier issue of justice in our nation.

01:08

We have no right to ask God to bless our nation while we continue to slaughter children in our streets.

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I'm going to go ahead and read the book, which is Romans 13, Romans 13, verse 1, says,

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Let every person give up their covering authorities, for there is no authority except from God and those that exist have been instituted by God.

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Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed and those who resist will incur judgment for rulers are not a terror to good conduct but to bad.

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Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good and you will receive his approval for he is

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God's servant for your good. We'll get into more of that later, but anyways, welcome everyone to Apology Air Radio.

01:58

Hopefully the rest of my clips don't play fast forward because that was strange. I have a lot of them. I have no idea why that happened.

02:05

Hi, Joy. Hi there. How's it going? Good. Well, it was going good. Pastor Jeff is on a sabbatical right now, so Joy and I are manning the ship today and I'm just going to get right into it here.

02:21

So we got a lot to cover. I want to go ahead and bring our guest in.

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We got Toby Sumpter on today and he is going to be at ReformCon, which

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I'm going to mention that. The landing page is up, so you can go to reformcon .org. That is going to be the end of May in 2022 and he will be speaking there and I'm excited for him to be on today.

02:44

Toby, what's up brother? Thanks for having me back on Apology Air. Yeah, man.

02:50

You're one of my favorite guests, so I'm glad you're able to come on today. So I'm just going to get right into it.

02:56

Like I said, we have a number of things to cover. The first clip I want to talk about was good old

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Arnold Schwarzenegger. I don't know if anybody saw this.

03:08

You happen to see this clip? I did. I mean, I saw this and I was like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, we got to talk about this.

03:14

So I'm just going to go ahead and start playing it and if anybody wants me to stop, just tell me to stop and we're going to talk about it.

03:21

Here we go. Hopefully it's not fast forward. First of all, you have to understand that as soon as the virus happened and we have finally people, more and more people from government have, you know, kind of acknowledged the fact that there is a virus and they were kind of very late, may

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I remind you, in wanting the people. But finally when they did want us and it did spread and we had to kind of cancel our

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Arnold's Classic Sports and Fitness Festival in Columbus and we were only allowed to have a limited crowd last

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March, meaning a year ago, a year and a half ago. That's when I realized that we all have to now come together.

04:04

Okay. I forgot to mention that this is actually posted on his page. So he posted this himself as a conversation he was having.

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Clearly he's upset because he had to cancel a bunch of his competitions or whatever because of COVID.

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So he, you know, essentially lost out on money. It was what it boils down to. And I was also going to mention that our video is not working today for some reason.

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So we only have audio. I apologize if you're watching. Oh, really? Yeah. So anyways,

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I wanted to throw that out there because that's important. I understand. And so I started putting posts out there about washing your hands regularly and wearing a mask and social distancing and to follow the kind of rules that the experts put out there and to face the fact that this is here and this is going to grow and it's going to expand and it's going to really affect a lot of people's lives.

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And so now, a year and a half later, we are still in a mess. And you know, there's still people that live in denials.

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There's still people that don't believe in masks. There's still people out there that say, well, we don't have to do social distancing and all this kind of stuff.

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It's not that I don't believe in masks. I just don't believe they don't work. So that's just to clarify that. And I just think that people ought to be reminded over and over that the experts are saying that we have to wear masks, especially when you go indoor.

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The experts are saying we still should wash our hands regularly. We should still do social distancing, especially now with this new comeback of the virus, which is the fourth round now, that we have to really go and work together on that.

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And there is misinformation out there. And my point of it was basically, look, I'm an expert on how to build a bicep.

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And so therefore, I know exactly what I'm talking about. I've studied this issue. I know exactly how to create this peak and all this stuff.

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There's no one that knows more about a bicep than I do, because I studied this issue for 50 years.

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And the same is also with the virus. There are people out there that are experts that study this year after year after year, and that they experienced, like Dr.

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Fauci that has been at this, you know, probably for his entire life. I mean, why would you not believe someone like that?

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Well, as we've discussed, he tends to talk out of both sides of his mouth. So that's why I don't believe him. But we'll continue here.

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So and there's so many other scientists out there and experts in this subject. So I believe them and I follow them very carefully.

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And of course, sometimes things are happening that are unexpected. So then you have to make the adjustments in order.

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But I think people should know there is a virus here. It kills people. And the only way we prevent it is to get vaccinated, to wear masks, to do social distancing, washing your hands all the time.

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And not just to think about, well, my freedom is being kind of disturbed here.

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No, screw your freedom. I think

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I'm just going to leave it there. Yeah, I think it seems like that's what this has all been about. Yeah. And I think he goes on to say, if you don't wear a mask, you're a schmuck, which literally is

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I mean, that's half the population is going to be alienated at that point.

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Probably more than that now, but half the population has not been vaccinated. So screw your freedom.

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Screw your freedom, Arnold. So I know you can go back to Austria.

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If you if you don't like our freedom, I'll just say that, but Toby, I'm dying to hear when I heard this,

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I was like, who would I want to hear talk about this? And you immediately came to mind. So I want to I just want you to go on when you're do your little sumpter fire for me here right now.

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Well, first of all, when I heard this, it was it was really kind of sad. I mean, you know,

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I know that I've never I've not always agreed with Arnold's politics. He's hardly a conservative, but but at least he was a dude, you know, you know.

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But but the second thing is, is that like my thought was, I don't like he doesn't believe in any movie he's ever been in.

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Oh, my gosh. That's right. Like, do you not know the story? I mean, all of his movies are basically the same.

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Like, you know, there's it's like 50 movies and they're all the same except for like Kindergarten Cop or whatever, you know, and and the one where he gets pregnant.

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But which actually be a fitting film for today anyway. Right. Right. Yeah. Like apparently that's the only one he actually believes in.

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Right. But but he but like all the stories like follow the story, if he says expert one more time, you know,

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I don't know what I'm going to do, but it follow the experts. No, don't you know, all the stories, all the stories when the experts are all agreed that this is what you have to do, you know, you know, the punchline they're wrong.

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Right. That's how all the stories go. And the hero usually played by Arnold is is that is the dude saying, no, you're missing some key details here.

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And and then, you know, does whatever it takes. Everybody hates him, rejects him. Actually, in the in that same interview, he goes on to talk about how everyone has to stop at stoplights.

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Yeah. You know, he says, you know, you can't just go off. You can't just decide I'm not going to stop at stoplights. OK, yeah.

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But but when all of the experts are taking away your freedom in every Arnold movie

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I've ever watched, he runs he runs the red lights like screw the red lights.

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He runs over them with a tank. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, I mean, he doesn't he doesn't believe.

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And the thing is, is, you know, and I mean, I'm not like I haven't watched all his movies. I've seen, you know, a handful of them or whatever, but I I'm pretty sure that's what they basically all are.

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And they're all based on a deep biblical motif.

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It's it's not it's not random that those are the stories we love when, you know, it's the Athanasius against the world story.

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It's it's David, young shepherd boy showing up at the war camp. Everyone's afraid of all the

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Philistine experts. And and he says, well, you're just going to stand there and let them blaspheme our

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God. And and it's story after story where it's when when the whole world says this is what you have to do and it doesn't make any sense.

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You know, no, there is no peer reviewed mask study that says masks do anything to help with viruses.

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There's not a single one. And the best of them say they can't tell if they help or not.

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Right. And and then what people do is they cite studies about masks that it's true that they can help with not spreading bacteria.

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Bacteria are like the size of Jupiter compared to viruses. But trying to keep a virus out or whatever in with a mask, any any kind of mask, even the

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N95, which are are a little bit relatively better, is like trying to keep mosquitoes out with a volleyball net.

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Right. And and so this is the you know, when this happens in the story, if you if you know your

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Bible, if you know history and if you know any of your Arnold movies, this is the moment where you say no.

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So there you go. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. And I mean, this is just this is just getting started in the conversation.

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Obviously, I don't even know if we're allowed to say the word, which when we replace him,

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Todd Freeland, he calls him V's. Oh, yeah. I'm going to call him gold stars for a reason.

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Well, you know, if the government forces you to wear a gold star, for example. So, yeah, so we're just we're just getting started.

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I just I heard that. I mean, there's there's not a lot to say that other than like it's like, come on, bro. Well, it's sort of just the same.

12:27

Yeah. The same propaganda that just keeps getting pushed. And really anyone like you have if you want to push the whole mask vaccine, you have a huge platform to do it on.

12:40

Right. Well, everyone will acknowledge your faithfulness to the cause.

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Yeah. And you'll I don't know, win some sort of weird secular saint hood.

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Yeah. Well, because it is it's it's it's morality. Now, this is a moral person.

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If you get this sticky pokey from the government and and I as a side note,

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I did I did was I was researching this clip and stuff. I saw some people post their own videos of this and they're and they they were like against like cancel culture and stuff.

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And then because what happened was Arnold said this and then a bunch of his sponsors for his events pulled out and were like, we're not sponsoring events anymore.

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It was a bunch of dudes, like Toby said, that are, you know, muscle bound men. Yeah. They're like, we're not giving you hundreds of thousands of dollars anymore.

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And then I saw people are like, oh, this isn't you can't cancel him. Let's you know, we don't like cancel culture.

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This is cancer. I'm like, no, this is there's a difference. Cancer culture is it when, you know, all the platforms pull him, pull his stuff and don't let him speak like they're not pulling his stuff.

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It's people that are giving him their money saying, I'm like, yeah, they can do whatever they want with their money. Exactly.

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I just want to throw that in there as a side note. But so so here's what I want to transition to then is.

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Sorry, I'm getting breathless here. I'm upset. This is what screw your freedom looks like.

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OK, in Australia, which pray for the Christians in Australia, I get messages all the time.

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I don't know what you guys told me. We get messages all the time from brothers and sisters in Australia, Australia and Canada.

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They can't literally can't leave their house without like a government issued excuse. They can't go to like churches aren't meeting because they're not allowed to.

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So I can say, do we start our own church? Right. I can't go to church. There's no churches open. So some of the ladies in the children's book club haven't been to church in as well over a year.

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And they want to go. Yeah. Yeah. There's nowhere to go. So here's what, you know, what Arnold's asking for.

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Essentially, the Australian government is going to seize twenty four thousand children from its citizens and place them in a stadium quarantine camp to be forcibly vaccinated.

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Not a parent in their house forever. Parents will not be allowed to attend.

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So that's what Arnold's asking for right there. Screw your freedom. We're going to take your children. We're going to put them in a stadium and we're going to stick needles in their arms and you can't come.

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Well, there there are children now like we're actually saying that they're not the parents are not allowed to come.

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So we will be acting as their parent and we will be deciding who our new children hang around with.

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And it's not their parents. Right. Exactly. So Toby, go ahead. I want to hear your thoughts on that.

15:29

Yeah. A couple of things. One is which order shall

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I go in? One is I think that countries in the West have been claiming children for their own for decades now.

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And so this is one of those places where and maybe and the other thing

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I was going to say is, you know, talking to Arnold or I know we're going to talk about Todd Friel's clip in a minute.

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But I think one of the questions we ought to be asking Christians or non -Christians who say, well, no,

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I don't think this is you know, this is not too far. This is just us pulling together. You know, you can lose a little bit of liberty in the name of whatever safety, health, all this sort of thing.

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I think the question we ought to be pressing on them is but so where's the line? Right. Like for you, where's the line?

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We're saying this is the you know, we crossed the line several miles ago, maybe several decades ago.

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But for you, where's the line? Like where's the line where you would actually stand there and and like and then you're going to take it?

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Because I'm not sure that any of these people have a line at all. And in which case, you know, it's it's really is there's no brakes on this car.

16:51

It's going off the cliff. I mean, I remember a year ago, there were piles of people, you know, would laugh in your face about vaccine mandates and and passports like you're a conspiracy theorist.

17:07

Where's your tin hat? Right. Our own local mayor was asked that point blank in one of our council city council meetings, because here in Moscow, we had a mask mandate for a while.

17:18

Yeah. But none of us obeyed. Right. It's very publicized. Yeah, you might have heard about it.

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But but he was asked point blank about vaccine mandates. And he just was like, oh, that's ridiculous.

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We will never do that here. Yeah. And I guarantee you, because I know the members of our city council, he is now feeling lots of pressure.

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And in fact, last week issued a statement for the first time strongly recommending vaccines.

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And I know that's because he's getting an earful from our city council their dream is to be like Portland or Seattle.

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And and so, you know, that's that's where it's coming. But where's the line? Is there a line at which you say,

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OK, now you've given up so much liberty, you've screwed so much of that liberty, Arnold, that, you know, you would finally say,

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OK, this is this is too far. What about them taking your kids? Right. But but I think the last my last thought is

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I my my counsel is, is it is this is the kind of tyranny under which

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Christians fled England in the 1600s. Yep. And if you're if you're living in Australia under this kind of martial law, and it's literally martial law, right, where you are enslaved and you may not leave your house and your children belong to the state and they're going to vaccinate them.

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If you're not seriously trying to get out of that country, you know, I I don't know what to tell you.

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You need to be seriously, unless you're you know, you've got some kind of safety and you're out in the woods, you're out in the boondocks and they're leaving you alone.

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But if you don't have a church, you haven't met for worship for a year, you have no fellowship, you have no voice in government and they're coming for your kids.

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Again, I would say, what's the line for you? You might be against all this. What's the line for you to leave?

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What's what's the line for you to to run and take your parental responsibilities seriously?

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And that's such a great point. I'm glad you brought up because we're going to I'm going to tie that in with the real clip as well.

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But I don't I mean, I don't even know if the Australian people can leave like they tried to go and we're like, we're out of here.

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I don't know if the government would even let them leave. I don't think they could be able to get on the plane. Obviously, they're in the middle of the ocean away from everyone.

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So I don't even know that that's crazy. That's that's a great point, though. So that's going to bring me I know we only got

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Toby for another 30 minutes. So that's going to bring me into the next thing I want to talk about then. And, you know, this all ties together.

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But Todd Freel, we have a lot of respect for, you know, he he came out with a podcast essentially on Wretched Radio.

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I don't want this to come out. This was August 9th. And so he the title is mandated these the

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Christian response. So he's claiming this is the Christian response. So what

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I'm going to do, I'm going to Tarantino this. So I'm going to play his conclusion first, which is at the end of the episode.

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And because I don't totally disagree with what he's saying. I'll explain what I mean.

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But the issues I have are how we got there. So we're going to talk about some of that. So I'll go ahead and play this real quick, quick.

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This is his conclusion, essentially. I believe that Christians are mandated, commanded to submit to government and do what we are told.

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Unless you believe that doing so would be a sin, and therefore you must conclude if you believe that the mandated

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V could kill you, could kill your family, or if not taking it could kill others, and therefore you need to do the research on this subject from a variety of sources to conclude would taking it or not taking it be a sin.

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So, Jimmy, there's my framework for it. OK, so that's his conclusion. Ultimately, I would agree that when choosing whether or not to get a vaccine, it is up to you.

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We're not telling someone you can or cannot get it. You know, I obviously I would say, yeah, do the research, you know, don't just go into this blindly.

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The problem I have and we're going to get into Romans 13. That's why I read that, you know, as far as should we always say what the government tells us to do or should we always do what the government tells us to do?

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My issue with that, with his conclusion, is that's fine if we're talking about voluntarily taking it.

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That's one thing. But what we're going back to Arnold, like if they're if they're trying to take our freedom, screw your freedom.

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Like that's a different conversation. We're talking about, you know, forced forced gold stars.

22:18

Right. So like anyways, do you want to add anything that Toby or Joy before I go in reverse it?

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First of all, I just I just want to point out that your Arnold impression is really good. Thanks, man. Appreciate that.

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You've hit it like every time. You know,

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I'll throw this in here now. I think Romans 13 begins with that verse one, right?

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There's no authority except from God. The powers that be are ordained by God.

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And then he goes on to talk about the civil magistrate in particular. But I think it's important to point out, first of all, that all authority is from God.

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Exactly. Which means parental authority, husband's authority over his wife, a pastor's authority, elder's authority.

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All those legitimate authorities are all from God. And and then he goes on to particularly, you know, just finished talking about leaving room for vengeance.

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And so he's going to go and that's an end of 12. And so he's going to go on and and explain how God's vengeance is ordinarily meted out in this world through a civil magistrate who has the sword.

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But I think there's a really weird inconsistency among many Christians in terms of how they view civil government as it compares to parental and ecclesiastical governments.

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So in this Me Too era, which I absolutely loathe and hate.

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Yeah. Nevertheless, if if a woman says, oh, it's it's you know, it's it's 445.

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My husband says I have to be home at five. See you, ladies. You know, in many, many conservative evangelical

24:11

Christian circles, several ladies are going to pull her aside later and say, is everything

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OK? He said you had to be home at five. Is are you being oppressed?

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You know, blink twice and you know, and you know, or I can't do that.

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My husband said I can't. And all of a sudden, all these, you know, flashing warning lights start going off in everybody's minds.

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And they're thinking, you know, is this an abusive situation? And and just stop for a second.

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Wait, wait. Being home at five o 'clock is not a sin. Right. Right.

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You know, like he says, I can't do that. I mean, you know, I need to I need to be home tonight or whatever.

24:54

But, you know, you do that with your husband, especially. I would say the same thing frequently happens with with the church.

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I mean, if a pastor gives a command, I mean, I don't know about you, Luke, but I'm I'm kind of, you know,

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I get kind of sick to my stomach when I think about giving a command to a parish.

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I'm very careful about it, but it's like I know this could blow back. Sure. You know, you know,

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I mean, if it's I command you not to murder, you know, OK, I'm I'm pretty, you know, solid ground. It's an easy one.

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But if I know that, you know, a man is really pooching it and failing as a husband.

25:32

And I and I know that like it's because he has a stupid job and he's not loving his wife faithfully because of that.

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I say, you know what? You've got to find a new job. Yeah, I'm I'm going to insist on it because it's causing you to stumble.

25:46

It's causing you to sin. It's causing you to sin against your family. You know, and then, you know, I'm bracing myself for the accusation when their marriage blows up that I was an abusive pastor.

25:58

But but my point is, zoom out when it's when it's a civil magistrate.

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Christians are, you know, all bow, you know, it's like bow down. It's not a sin you can submit.

26:11

Where's all that when it's when you're talking about a husband's authority? Where's all that when you're talking about a pastor's authority?

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And, you know, don't get me wrong, I think that husbands are sinners and they abuse their authority and it needs to be checked.

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And I think that pastors sometimes abuse their authority and it needs to be checked. Right. And it's the same principle.

26:31

And so the first thing I would I would want to insist on with Todd and anyone else would be let's let's make sure that we're using the exact same standard, the exact same measurement with all the authorities that God has given.

26:44

Yeah. And and so if it is right for a wife to sometimes resist an oppressive husband, an unbelieving husband, even in areas where what he's saying is not necessarily requiring her to sin.

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But he's just being a jerk and a fathead. And and he needs pushback, godly pushback.

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If that's not always a sin, if that is sometimes called for, if that is sometimes righteous. And if the same thing can be said for ecclesiastical authority, sometimes it is right and proper for parishioners to push back against what their pastor or elders are doing.

27:24

Then the same standard applies to the civil magistrate. Yeah. And that's so good. Go ahead.

27:30

Yeah, I was just. Well, I don't know. He kind of gets into it. Maybe I'll jump in at some point. Yeah. So and I want to say as well,

27:37

I'm going to play some more clips. He goes a lot of commercial breaks. And then when he comes back from the commercial breaks, he basically like he like does a recap.

27:45

Yeah. So it was kind of hard to find some places. So there's there might be some repeating stuff here.

27:51

So forgive me if that's the case. And we'll get more into Romans 13 as well.

27:57

And yes, I'll just go ahead. I'm going to go back to the beginning. This is like two minutes in. And then we'll just discuss some more of those as we go.

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Clarity. How do I respond? Because I know what my guts tell me. But what does the

28:11

Bible say to me about this subject? The seven steps, if you recall, begin with pre -understandings.

28:19

You have to lose them. Your brain needs to be etch -a -sketched.

28:24

Now, that is easier for some of us than others. But you need to get rid of whatever it is that you are feeling about the subject of mandated

28:32

V's. Perhaps you think this violates my constitutional rights. This violates

28:38

Nuremberg, the Geneva Convention. Those are pre -understandings that a lot of evangelicals possess.

28:46

You've got. I'll just say because he talked about this again later. He actually says that that's correct, that this would violate those things.

28:54

But then he's like, I don't know if we'll have time to get those. But then he's like, but I don't know if that's really like a theological conversation.

29:01

And I'm like, yeah, it is actually very much a theological conversation. So he kind of just like dismisses that.

29:08

And I will say, too, because I don't know if we're going to have time to get into it. Basically, what it comes down to him is, again, like obey the government and let's tell you to sin.

29:16

But the question for him is protecting your body, essentially, or your body of your family.

29:23

Like that's kind of the thing that's up in the air. You have to answer for yourself. Is this a moral thing? Is God asking you to sin sort of a thing?

29:30

That's that's kind of what he comes to. But go ahead. You're going to say something. Well, I was just it's kind of been touched on already.

29:37

But I yeah, I feel like the something very meaningful to kind of keep your eye out for while he's talking is just.

29:47

It's well, it's really what Toby was talking about. Just like he insinuates like,

29:56

OK, so if you're not so if it's a sin, God gives you permission to disobey, which is kind of true.

30:02

But I think maybe a better way of saying it is we always have permission to obey God. And how do we know how to obey

30:11

God? How do we know what sin is and stuff? And that goes to his law, which says plenty on resisting tyranny.

30:19

So I think it was kind of a big hole. Yeah, totally.

30:25

But I mean, he does kind of get into like some of his like lesser magistrate, which he'd completely just basically dismisses lesser magistrate.

30:33

The doctor. Right. Yeah. I thought he kind of he says is basically not valid. Yeah. Glossed over that. I thought that was interesting.

30:39

But yeah, it's what he's saying. Like you said, like he's it's not.

30:46

Well, there's some stuff that's really wrong with what he's saying. But I think it's sort of a shallow view of obedience or God's law.

30:56

Like God's. I guess maybe if you think of God's laws, the Ten Commandments, which a lot of people do, then maybe that's sort of just your litmus test for like, am

31:04

I sinning? OK, is the government asked me to break the Ten Commandments? No. OK, we're good. But that's not the entirety of God's law.

31:12

And then as Toby was saying, that's not like just not sinning is not the entirety.

31:19

Yeah. Of the law either. Yeah. Well, that's a great point. Treating people well as a part of the law like that.

31:26

Yeah. Anyway. Well, and hopefully we'll find out. Hopefully I've found this clip and we'll get into it because you told me you already kind of mentioned it.

31:33

But like the question is, what about things that and he even says things that are already offer like where do we draw the line on that?

31:41

If it's not a clear cut sin in scripture and that's kind of where we're at with this. But let me keep playing this because we're running out of time.

31:47

Yeah. To scratch it for now, we'll come back to them at the very end.

31:54

But I want to deal with my pre understandings after I have a biblical understanding.

31:59

But perhaps you think my body, my choice. We we maybe thought that a phrase like that could work.

32:07

Apparently, it doesn't apply for both sides at the table report regarding the

32:15

V. You might just be thinking this whole thing is a hoax anyway. It's a mandated

32:22

V is actually worse than the actual disease that the cure could kill me.

32:31

Perhaps you're thinking that for the time being, you're going to have to lose it. Here's another one.

32:37

I suspect out of the tens and tens of people listening to this program, you might possess the pre understanding that this hasn't been tested.

32:46

And I don't know the long term effects. And I am not going to do this if it puts my life and my family's life at risk.

32:56

That is a subject that is really going to become important and which, by the way, we are not going to tackle.

33:06

You're going to have to do your own data research. This exercise is to simply give us a biblical framework for plugging in that information.

33:18

Finally, you might be thinking, hey, baby stem cells were used in the research, and that violates my

33:23

Christian conscience. Well, these days that might not matter because there are some employers that are saying it doesn't matter about your religion.

33:33

You're going to take it anyway. Are those your pre understandings? Can you set them aside for a moment as we dive into explicit

33:42

Bible verses? Please note. Okay, so this is where I was trying to get to.

33:48

He gets into verses like Romans 13, for example, where he's saying this is explicit.

33:53

I can't get away from that. And then he uses some other ones like an ax and stuff where it's like, you know, the apostle said we have to obey

34:00

God rather than man. You know, so there's there's some verses he gets into. I'm just for sake of time. I'm going to skip ahead here, hopefully to the clip

34:08

I was talking about, because this is the one that made me want to slam my head into the wall.

34:13

So hopefully this is the right spot and then we'll get Toby's take. Dare it.

34:19

But we need to consider how we figure this out biblically and through the lens of the gospel.

34:31

If the entire universe revolves around that subject, then we need to apply that subject to my situation.

34:39

So here's how I did it. Your mileage may vary. The body is important. We've learned that.

34:45

But we from the other verses, but also from the from the gospel, Jesus had a body and died for our bodies that we might have a resurrected eternal body.

34:54

So bodies are not insignificant. I can't just trash them or do things that are reckless with them.

35:01

They have high value. I also learned from the gospel that death is inevitable. I'm not going to fear death.

35:09

Shouldn't anyway. We don't have it. The world has it. That is obvious these days, isn't it? Hence the panic.

35:15

They're terrified of death. If you've been wondering what's with all of this stuff that's going on, it's part of it.

35:21

There's more. But part of it is there's a tremendous fear of death right now in our culture.

35:27

When you're post -Christian, you can expect that because only Christians can have confidence to stare into the jaws of death and not be terrified.

35:37

Death is inevitable, the gospel tells me. But the gospel also tells me God loves me and he loves the world.

35:47

God loves the world, and so should I. I should be considerate with what

35:52

I do with my body. I don't drive recklessly because I don't want myself and other people to be hurt.

35:59

That is all a part of loving neighbor. But that's also informed by the gospel. Let's move into church history.

36:06

What is the church said on this subject? Well, this would be a good place for you to go study Romans 13 and 1

36:12

Peter 2 again. What has been the church view on the subject of submitting to government?

36:17

I lay that out in a video that is actually, strangely enough, still available, at least on the

36:23

YouTube machine. Should a Christian take the CV?

36:30

Question mark. Yep, we've come to this. I've got to abbreviate and not say the word.

36:39

You can watch that presentation and noodle through it. It's going to be very important in the days ahead that we understand what the role of government is in our life and how we're supposed to respond to it when it makes really personal, bad decisions.

36:53

The church historically has basically said, submit to the government, just do what you're told.

37:00

Now, there are some folks these days that believe in something called the lesser magistrates, that you as a lesser magistrate, you are responsible for making sure that the upper magistrates behave well.

37:13

If they don't, you can deal with them in whatever way you see fit. I do not adhere to that position.

37:20

I believe that if the government tells me to put pinwheels on the side of my head every time that I go to Publix, I'm going to put pinwheels on the side of my head.

37:31

Could look like a lot of pastors these days. The point is, I think we submit to our government.

37:40

What he's saying is very interesting to me because yesterday I just finished reading a character study of the

37:49

Scottish Covenanters. So it seems very weird to hear someone say the words, historically, the church has encouraged submission.

37:56

Right. So that's what I want to get to this point. Like, I mean, with all due respect,

38:03

Todd, that's completely false. That's not historically true. You, Todd, would not have the freedom to have this show that you do if Christians historically did what you said they did.

38:18

Our nation wouldn't exist if Christians said, we'll submit to the government no matter what. That's not how this works.

38:25

That's not how it's worked historically. And, you know, and so he and I want to have you get in a second here totally, but like, you know, this is the thing that was laughable to me.

38:36

This is the clip that I think everyone was was like, he said, what? Yeah. The government told you to put pinwheels on your head.

38:41

I mean, obviously he's being facetious, but the point is, like, I don't doubt that he would just do whatever the government told him to do.

38:49

And. And, you know, so then going back to what I said at the beginning, like, what if the government tells you you have to wear a gold star?

38:56

What if the government tells you you have to ride in the back of the bus or drink from a separate water fountain? You know, what if the government says, give us your kids?

39:03

We're sticking a needle in their arm like those aren't necessarily black and white sin issues.

39:08

But if you're going by what Todd's saying, you just got to do that and you got to obey no matter what. And again, our nation would not exist if that's how

39:16

Christians in history acted. Toby, go for it, brother. All right. Yeah.

39:21

So first off, my question back to the point I made earlier would be for Todd, who I don't know personally, but would be brother.

39:29

I would love for you to post a similar clip online and say to all

39:35

Christian wives. If your husband says you have to wear pinwheels on the side of your head whenever you go to Publix, you have to.

39:45

I'd love to see that go. Right. I'd love to see the reaction or the same thing.

39:51

If your pastor says you have to wear pinwheels on the side of your head whenever you go to Publix.

39:57

I mean, I just like is it is it are we measuring with the same measuring stick? Are we using the same standard?

40:03

And if not, why not? Right. And and maybe part of the answer, if he would,

40:10

I'm hoping he would say, oh, no, you shouldn't do that. But then, you know why?

40:16

And and maybe we start we can start talking about things like jurisdiction. Yep. There are certain jurisdictions that God has given.

40:25

And I didn't hear all of his explanation of Romans 13, but Romans 13 is actually really, really clear that God did not give any authority to the civil magistrates with regard to pinwheels.

40:39

Right. He he did not give them any authority with regard to how the health and welfare of my body or the bodies of those

40:49

I'm responsible for. The Bible clearly gives that authority to husbands and fathers and mothers.

40:58

That's that's clearly given. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church, giving themselves for her.

41:05

They are to nourish and cherish their wives as they do their own bodies. Those those verbs literally in Greek mean to feed and keep warm.

41:15

That's not just a spiritual thing. It's also a physical thing and includes health and welfare.

41:21

That's that's the job that God has given the authority to husbands to and fathers and mothers to take care of their own families.

41:28

The same thing applies in Ephesians six that fathers are to bring up their children in the nurture and admonition of the

41:34

Lord. That's not just spiritual education. It also includes feeding them, clothing them, making sure they're healthy.

41:40

First Timothy five says that someone who doesn't take care of his own household is worse than an unbeliever. Right. So the authority of health, health care and medical decisions has been clearly that jurisdiction has been given to families and individuals, not to the government.

41:54

And so governments that command things that's outside of the jurisdiction that God's given them are in active rebellion against the

42:02

God of heaven. Yep. The the other thing. So, again, just that's one response to the pinwheel thing.

42:10

The other thing and this actually keys well off of what I'm curious what book George has finished. But the you know, you brought a

42:18

Presbyterian on your show. So I'm going to go covenantal on you. But I'm not being covenantal.

42:25

But but to my defense, joy brought it up. So I did. But our country, you may know that the

42:32

American War for Independence was called by many. And it's actually, I understand, still referred to by some outside of our country as the

42:42

Presbyterian revolt. And that's in part due to the fact that many of the leaders of the war for independence were

42:50

Presbyterian pastors and elders leading the charge. That's part of it. But part of it was also that King George knew his history.

42:59

And many of the people who are now in the states came from Scotland, which is the birthplace of Presbyterianism.

43:07

And the Presbyterians in Scotland were also called covenanters. And they got their name because they said basically

43:14

God deals with us through covenants and covenants are solemn bonds and agreements with blessings and curses.

43:26

And and they said, rightly, God works through covenants with his people.

43:31

He made covenants with Israel. He made covenants with the nations through Noah and so on.

43:38

And and these contracts then are how God establishes power and authority in the world, as opposed to a divine right of kings, which is what was argued for in England.

43:51

That God makes me a king and therefore I have this direct power from God. And that's, you know, period, full stop and you have to do whatever

43:58

I say. Right. Samuel Rutherford and others of the of the

44:03

Scottish Reformation read their Bibles carefully like Brother Todd wants us to do and said, no, wait a second.

44:11

Actually, part of the way that God establishes authority and power is through the consent of the governed.

44:19

There is a there is a covenantal relationship between rulers and those they rule over.

44:27

Again, a great example of this is a husband and a wife. That's a covenant.

44:33

Marriage is a covenant and there is an authority given by God to a husband over his wife and she is called to obey and submit to him.

44:40

But that authority is not absolute and that covenant can be broken.

44:46

And if that covenant is broken, the Bible clearly teaches that if one of the parties has been sinned against, particularly through adultery, that the the the offended party, the innocent party is free to leave.

45:03

And the same principle applies again to other authorities. So if your if your pastor is embezzling money, you are not required by God to remain in submission under him or if he is an adult in an adulterous relationship with the secretary, you're not under any obligation under God, even though you took membership vows.

45:23

The covenant has been broken and he needs to be dealt with. And if that can't happen, you need to find a new church.

45:30

And the same principle applies again. We need to have the same standard applied to all our covenants, marriage, churches, civil governments.

45:38

And that's how our country was established. It's it was it was established covenantally.

45:44

Yes. And that means we have an agreement. That agreement is called the Constitution and the

45:49

Bill of Rights. It's not ultimate, but it is our contract. And and if you can go all the way back to the

45:58

Magna Carta in 1215 in England and to his point about civil magistrates,

46:04

I'm curious to know why he doesn't buy that the lesser magistrates. But but but in 1215, a bunch of the nobles.

46:18

Basically, with swords and spears pointed at King John said, you're going to stop acting like you run this place.

46:28

We have the old feudal system is basically a covenantal system.

46:35

Those who had soldiers, those who had land would make agreements with people that use their land to defend them.

46:42

And the people in return would provide food and provide support for the princes, for the nobles, for the lords.

46:50

That was a rudimentary covenantal system based broadly on Christian principles. And the nobles of England drew up the

46:58

Magna Carta listing all the old feudal rights and made John sign it.

47:04

And and and and he did. And but that was a covenantal move by lesser magistrates.

47:13

And that's been one of the basic foundation foundational pieces of our civil theory for, you know, going on seven, you know, 800 years now.

47:24

Right. And so I the the point is, is that his say,

47:31

I think earlier on, you played a clip of sort of him like. Maybe I don't know if he agrees with the constitutional appeal or dismissing it.

47:38

But the point being, appeals to the Constitution are not secular appeals.

47:44

Right. Appeals to the Constitution are thoroughly Christian appeals. Right. The founders of our nation were

47:50

Christians. They wrote down the agreement that we were going to have as a nation. It's a covenant that we made together.

47:58

And and now when people start breaking covenant, they need to be held accountable to it.

48:04

And and requiring pinwheels to go to publics is way, way broken covenant.

48:10

Right. And so that's that's evil. It's wicked. It doesn't mean that you start, you know, shooting stuff up and blowing things up.

48:19

But resistance is required in the same way that I would counsel a woman to resist such things.

48:27

If her husband was requiring it of her. Yeah. Unless there was some really good explanation that I'm not able to see, you know,

48:37

I would begin counseling. No, you need to begin appealing to him. You need to begin respectfully, submissively, so on.

48:44

But but this is not this is not going to go well. He's breaking covenant. And the same thing where the parishioner for his pastor or elders love is holding one another to our word.

48:57

Yes, it's it's not it's not loving to let your neighbor break their word.

49:02

Let them break covenant. That's sin. And so we should love one another and hold one another to the covenants that we've made.

49:10

Amen. Oh, thank you. Really appreciate that. If it makes you feel better, I just named my my son after a

49:16

Presbyterian pastor. So, well, all you got to do now is baptize. Yeah. Well, when he repents and believes, he will.

49:24

Jonas, his name is Jonas. I named him after Jonas Clark. So, but hey, man,

49:29

I know you got to go. I, Joy, what's the book you you're reading? Oh, it's Fair Sunshine by Jack Purves.

49:36

There you go. Toby, we will see you in a couple of weeks, brother. I'm so looking forward to it.

49:43

I was I was just saying a few minutes ago, one of my favorite things about the Fight, Laugh, Feast conference is all the people there just hanging out.

49:51

Yep. I'm excited. So that is what that's September 9th through 11th,

49:57

I believe. Correct. Yep. Just right outside of Nashville and Lebanon, Tennessee. But you can go to FLF Network or Fight, Laugh, Feast dot com and see the link there for the

50:10

Nashville conference. And there's still room to register and love to have everybody there. It's going to be a huge party.

50:16

And I'm excited to see you guys. Yes. Likewise. My running joke has been if a

50:21

Presbyterian asks you to feast, you don't say no. Oh, that's hilarious.

50:29

Summer and Joy, you guys, you're going to actually do one of our breakouts. Yeah. Yeah, we will. With Nancy Wilson and I think

50:36

I think Rebecca Merkel. Yeah, that's right. So that's exciting. Sweet. Well, we'll be there, obviously.

50:42

And I think I've mentioned this all of our everyone but Provoked. So Shia Lojan's Apology Radio and Cultish will all be there as well, wherever the podcasting booths are at.

50:52

And we'll also have an abortion now and Action for Life there as well. So, yeah, man, well,

50:59

I'm looking forward to seeing you. And I know you got to go. So I appreciate your time, brother. Absolutely. Well, thanks for having me.

51:05

Lord bless. Keep up the good work. You too. Thanks. We'll see you soon. Thanks. Yeah. So to finish up here, just to kind of tag off a couple of things that Toby was saying, is it going to be fast?

51:25

Well, hopefully not too fast. Hopefully. So back to Romans 13, there's a couple of things

51:32

I want to add to that. Well, first, again, because I know Toby asked a question about the kind of whether free will, you know, the

51:39

Constitution question. Basically, I think I said it already, but basically he said that those are valid points that they would violate the

51:48

Constitution, the Nuremberg and all that. Right. But he basically just dismisses it and says, well, that for Christians, it has to be a theological question.

51:57

Right. Well, yeah. And he was yeah, he was trying to. Well, so he was trying the point he was trying to make is care about what the

52:09

Bible says about this, like don't care about your feelings, don't care about what your neighbor says, like you should care what the

52:16

Bible says about this. He was saying, like, lay down your traditions and your preconceived notions so that you can hear what the

52:23

Bible says. I just disagree that he applied it properly, I think maybe missed.

52:29

Well, that's why I think and he even said, like, I'm not really giving my opinion. I'm just giving you the biblical.

52:35

I wish he would have given us his opinion. But I think his opinion was his opinion was kind of clear.

52:42

He just went. Right. Yeah. But, you know, yeah, I'm not I really.

52:49

I don't like have any bad feelings. Yeah. It's Todd Freel right at all. Right. Well, and I appreciate one thing.

52:56

Toby said it is a theological issue. Right. Absolutely. And going back to Romans 13, like this is, you know,

53:04

Toby was saying this, but I wanted to expand on it. Like the role of the government is it says clearly in Romans 13, which

53:11

Todd doesn't even read. He just reads the part where it says, do what they tell you. Right. It's like, well, but it also says that the government's role is to punish evildoers.

53:22

Right. You know, and to to bless the good, essentially, and the righteous, it's to protect the righteous, to be the event.

53:29

Literally, it says the the government's God's deacon to be the avenger of wrath. So that's their role is to protect the good and punish evil.

53:39

Their role is not to force you to stick a needle in your arm. And that's that's where it is a theological question.

53:47

Right. Because where do you get your authority from? Who gets where does the government get its authority? Where's the father?

53:53

Like Toby was saying, it's just you have to qualify it. Yeah. So that's kind of an important thing that he missed.

54:00

Yeah. Well, that's you know, it's just that's what happens when you pull one verse out of context and ignore the rest of it.

54:06

Right. So, yeah, I just wanted to throw that out there. Again, I have a lot of respect for Todd Frill, but I just I feel like he's wrong there.

54:15

And this is I saw this come up. We talked about this. Jeff and I did when we had

54:20

Ron Paul in last week. You know, what about all the Christians in Afghanistan? Like when the

54:27

Taliban takes over and they're telling you you have to wear a job or we shoot you. Or anyone who lives anywhere where you're not allowed to go to church.

54:35

Yeah. I mean, that's that's a lot of places now. But historically, it's been places where you like will lose your life.

54:43

Yeah. For it. Like Todd's not telling those Christians in Pakistan and Afghanistan, you better wear that hijab because they told you to.

54:49

Right. You know, or like, you know, I saw that Taliban is going around and taking people's phones. And if they have a Bible app on there, they shoot them.

54:55

Right. Like. Todd, are you going to tell them the same thing? Right. You know, you better give your phone like a pretty

55:02

American. You better give them your phone. You know, it's it's this doesn't just apply to black and white sin issues.

55:10

Like he does. Again, he does say that it does apply to Adi Afra as well. Like, right. Where do we draw those lines?

55:16

And it's and I love Toby so much. It's all about God's ordained, instituted roles and spirits of government.

55:26

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's a theological authority of those things. The roles of those things. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, absolutely.

55:32

And for a for a culture that is like so obsessed with being unsubmissive, we sure.

55:39

I mean, it's just because we outsource every line of authority is now the government's. So instead of being submissive in all these other spheres, you just submit to the government.

55:51

And that. Yeah, this is actually a quote I need to go. I have a quote that came to mind that I love from Toby from years ago that applies perfectly here.

55:59

And I don't it was in a it was in a cross politic episode. But he said basically, if if if God is not your father, then the state will be your mother.

56:10

And that's exactly exactly what we have going on here now. And I do want to say, like, you know, if you're a

56:17

Christian, you're watching this and you feel like you need to get the vaccine, you know, that's between you and God.

56:24

Like, I'm not telling you. I think sometimes I was thinking about this and I don't know, whatever.

56:31

Um, like we give our opinions, we know a lot of what we give is not an opinion.

56:37

It's just Bible teaching. And, you know, that's more for the pastors.

56:42

But I think sometimes people think that we do this type of thing, like talk about this stuff because we think like what other people do is our business.

56:52

Almost as if they would meet us in person. Yeah. And you'd be like, well, so what are you doing? Are you like I'm the judge of your life, but like your business is not my business.

57:01

Like, I am totally just taking care. I have plenty of my own business to take care of more than and I'm not like if we ever meet in person,

57:10

I promise you, I will. I'm not thinking like, well, I wonder if this person heard the last episode of Apology Radio and if they agree with me and if they do everything

57:19

I should say. Right. That's not like I don't know. That's not the point of this. This is supposed to be encouraging and it's supposed to be an exercise in critical thinking.

57:28

Yes, I would hope. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like I was thinking about today, like my parents, whom I love and they love

57:34

Jesus. They both got the vaccine. They felt like they needed to do it for their health. That's fine. I wish they wouldn't have.

57:40

Right. But I'm not like condemning them and I'm not condemning others for getting as well. I can promise you

57:45

I'm not going to get it. And I can promise you no one's sticking it in my kids arms. Right. You know, but like the point of this again, this is why

57:52

I felt like there was a distinction between what Friel was saying is like there there there is a conversation for whether you choose to do this or not.

58:02

That's one conversation. There's another conversation with whether or not the government should be forcing you to do it.

58:08

Right. And again, it is a theological conversation. So, yeah. Anyways, I need closing thoughts on that.

58:16

Hey, real quick. Yes, sir. Isaac. Oh, yeah, that's right. Wasn't there a rumor about Todd Friel being your dad?

58:25

Yes, there was. Oh, yours, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, there was that interesting moment where I guess someone thought

58:34

Summer and I both had famous dads. Obviously, Summer's dad is the wonderful Pastor James.

58:42

But for some reason it was going around at one point. Mostly. Well, we thought it was funny.

58:48

And so we kind of propagated it a little bit. It's probably mostly us. But yeah, there was just like a random someone randomly was like, yeah, and the other girl's dad is

58:58

Todd Friel. That's right. And so from that moment on, I was kind of just like, you know, I see you, dad.

59:04

Yeah, honorary dad. Todd Friel. Yeah. I've never met him. Well, I guess I agree with your dad on this one.

59:11

I do. I do. But that's hilarious. I forgot about that, Isaac. So anyways, in closing here, a couple of things

59:19

I want to mention again, reformcon .org. Yes, you're going to say something. Don't forget to mention the Pennsylvania.

59:24

Yes, that's next, actually. OK, good. I told Joy to remind me so I didn't forget. So May 22nd, 2022, there's a lot of to -to -to -to's going on there.

59:36

We will have ReformCon, be back here in Arizona. You can go there now and sign up so you can get updates as they're coming out again.

59:43

Toby will be there, Pastor Jeff, Pastor James, Dr. White, John Sampson, Joe Boot, Andrew Sandlin, David Bonson, Gary DeMar, and someone else.

59:56

David Bonson is a new is a new name in our lineup. That's exciting. I'm very excited for that. And did you see his post?

01:00:04

I don't know if you're friends on Facebook. He had a really crazy post the other day. I think it was his birthday and he realized that he was like the next day he was going to be one day older, like to the day than his dad was when he passed, because he passed really young.

01:00:21

It was like a really cool post. And there's a picture of him when he was a kid with his dad. Anyways, it was a cool post. So, yeah, excited for that.

01:00:28

As Joy mentioned, I'm actually going to we're going to play a trailer or not trailer, a promo for the rally we have coming up with an abortion now in Action for Life in Pennsylvania for a bill.

01:00:38

We're helping there to end abortion. So Isaac's going to play that at the end. That's coming up. And I mentioned we'll be at Fight Left Feast in September.

01:00:47

And I think that's the things to mention for now. As always, you can sign up at ApologyRadio .com

01:00:53

to help support everything we do. Go sign up for Bonson U, which is free freezies.

01:01:00

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You can go and sign up for free. It's a seminary level education. We are just constantly putting more stuff up there.

01:01:21

So you can go sign up for that and support us in abortion now as well.

01:01:27

In AbortionNow .com, we got a lot of stuff going on there. We got I keep losing track of how many states, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, something like that, states that we're working in right now to help put forth abolition bills, which we're very excited about.

01:01:39

So all that to say, thank you, everyone. Again, thank you, Joy. Thank you for hosting, for, well,

01:01:47

I guess we're both co -hosting. Yes, we're co -hosting. For manning the head chair. Yes, the captain's chair.

01:01:54

So Joy and I will be back next week without Pastor Jeff again, as he'll be on his last, actually, he'll be coming back that day,

01:01:59

I think from his sabbatical. And I'm not sure what we're going to do yet. I have an idea, but we'll be back.

01:02:04

Um, any who Isaac, you want to go ahead and play that bro?

01:02:10

We got it. All right. Check out this promo for our thing in Pennsylvania, September 25th.