Matt Slick Live: February 5, 2025

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. It's Matt Slick Live.

Matt is the founder and president of the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry found online at karm .org.

When you have questions about Bible doctrines, turn to Matt Slick Live for answers. Taking your calls and responding to your questions at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. It's me, Matt Slick. You're listening to Matt Slick Live.

And I think today what I might do is tell what I do here on the show because sometimes we get new callers, new listeners, people come calling in.

We have newbies all the time, people just tuning in. Well, what's this show about? And I'll get to that in a sec.

Today's date is the 5th of February, 2025. If you want, you can give me a call.

As usual, it is easy to do. Just dial 877 -207 -2276.

I wanna hear from you. Give me a call, it's easy. You can also send me an email at info at karm .org.

Info at C -A -R -M dot O -R -G. And put the subject line, radio comment, radio question.

We can get to them. All right, let me look, see if we've got anything in there right now. Any new stuff, because a lot of times it comes in.

We only have, ooh, 64 emails in our inbox.

That's it. That have not been addressed. And boy, we've got a lot of stuff in there. That's nothing.

64, that's nothing. I have, and let me check this out. I have Matt at karm .org.

Ooh, there's 2006. And Matt's looking at Gmail. There's 1441. And then my private, which

I'm not gonna tell you how many, what the address is. My private has 334. Oh, man.

I'm gonna have to put caution tape around the office here and just do emails for like a week. Good thing

I have one of those speech recognition programs. I have one of those, and I have, I can say paste whatever, like an opening or closing or this or that.

And it'll just put it right into the text of an email. And then I can just move the cursor and then start voice typing a bunch of stuff in for the, you know, an answer.

And I can do that. So that's good. That's good. All right, all right, all right. If you're tuning in new, so my name's

Matt Slick is my real name. And that's why we call it Matt Slick Live. And I'm a Christian apologist, which means

I defend the Christian faith and debate and teach. In fact, I was just doing that for about an hour and a half today.

I had to go someplace. When I get bored, I turn on my phone. I go into a chat room, a chat place, and go in and start talking.

And man, I'll tell you. Oh, man. People don't like being cornered.

They do not like it. And I cornered this one guy, two guys, actually. Man, they just come swinging, but they don't like it.

So that does happen. And maybe I'll tell you about that. But also, okay, now finally,

I got something to tell you that we're going in November. We're going to, a bunch of us are gonna go to Jordan for a

Bible Lance tour. And so, let's see. I'll make sure I get everything right. So yeah, okay, good.

So I was supposed to put a newsletter out, and our newsletter system has been down. And I haven't been able to do that for a while.

And I talked to a specialist, and he said it's ready to go today. I haven't even checked. I've been so busy. So what

I'm gonna do is write an email tonight and send it out to everybody and let people know that we're gonna have a final offer over on Friday.

This Friday is in two days from now, that on the 7th, today's Wednesday, right? Today's Wednesday? Yeah, it is.

So that if anybody wants to still go on the Jordan tour, I'll be going, Lord willing, unless something comes up, but I'll be going along with some other people on the bus.

We're flying into Jordan. The guy we're doing this with has been there multiple times. It's safe, it's not a problem.

He said, it's like going to Turkey. And I feel perfectly safe in Turkey. I've been there twice, no big deal.

People treat you fine, they're just normal people. And so we're gonna go there to Petra and also

Sodom and Gomorrah and a bunch of other places. In fact, I'm looking at the website 2025jordan .com,

2025jordan .com, and it'll forward it to this website. And there's this little special something about this trip.

There's a guy named Joel Kramer. Joel Kramer is a biblical archeologist and he's got like 700 ,000 followers on YouTube.

The guy is incredible, and that's no understatement because I've been on tours with him before and where he's taught, and I'm telling you, he brings out stuff no tour guide's gonna bring out.

He really is good. We were at, for example, we're at Jericho and there's a cordoned off area.

Don't go beyond this area. And so he waits and et cetera. He goes, come on, let's go.

And we go over to the back area and he said, now look at this, look at that. They don't show you this, but look at this. And we get these private tours.

And it was through him we got to go into the Qumran cave area also. So he has these abilities and this insight and he's gonna be on this tour.

Now after this week, Friday, if nobody signs up, because we've got one spot left under me.

So one more spot that if you sign up under me, you go to 2025jordan .com

and then use my name, Matt Slick, it's under me, then great. If not, if nobody does that,

I'm gonna put in the newsletter again for this tonight, but if nobody does, then it's gonna go over to Joel Kramer and it's gonna sell out in two minutes, three minutes, five minutes, that kind of a thing.

It'll be just, that's the way it is. So, but this trip's gonna be great. We're gonna be going, let's see.

We're gonna go to Amman, Jordan, then Tel Rabah, Philadelphia Museum, Amorite Tower, then

Mount Nebo, Madaba map, Heshbon, Beth Peor, let's see, what else?

The Bethany by the Jordan where Jesus was baptized actually. Sala Borza, Petra, oh man,

Petra. But you can't be, this is another thing with a trip is you gotta be in shape to walk, so you have to prep walking.

What I did for my last trip, I was walking up to five miles a day and that was fine. I just put my headset on and listened to Bible stuff and did some talking and went to Petra.

I think the Petra day we walked 12 miles, like six miles out and it's a bit of a walk, just letting you know, but you know, it's not like 80 miles an hour and you can do it.

We've, I think we walked five to 10 miles a day overall between stops and stuff like that each time we're doing these tours and it works out fine.

We're also gonna be going to Sodom and Gomorrah and Pella, Jerash, and then we fly home.

Anyway, 12 day trip if you're interested, 2025 Jordan, oh, excuse me, 2025jordan .com.

And Joel Kramer's website is expeditionbible .com. How about that?

That's really good. Okay, we've got no callers waiting. If you wanna give me a call, the number's 877 -207 -2276.

And like I said, you can email me as well. And just send an email to info at carm .org.

All right, so I've been learning a lot of theology. I'm always studying. I'm 68, been studying since 1980 and reading the

Bible and studying in seminary, college, debates, teaching, writing articles, et cetera.

And I have a lot more to learn, I really do. I don't say I have all the answers, but I'll tell you one thing.

I know my Reformed theology really well and I was driving someplace to have lunch with some people and I decided to get online and just listen on the phone.

I just go to listen, listen to what they're talking. Sometimes there's some good conversations in chat rooms. And so I did that on the way up and then on the way back, let's just say some heresy was being taught in a room.

Let's see if I can jump in and kind of help out a little bit. So I did. And next thing you know, in an hour discussion and I get home and I switched to my computer and we're having discussions and the

Prevenient Grace got brought up. And I love the idea of Prevenient Grace. And I'll tell you why it came up because we're discussing, of all things,

Original Sin and Romans 5 .19. And it was great because, oh man.

So I go to Romans 5 .19, right? Talking about Original Sin. This is what this verse says, okay.

For as through the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous.

All right, before I get into this, I wanna introduce a concept called Pelagianism. Pelagianism is a heresy.

It's a false teaching. That states that an infant, a newborn, has no sin nature, is not fallen, there's no guilt to the baby account, there's nothing there.

That's Pelagianism. Okay, that's the basics of what it is. There's more to it, but that's the basics. So I say, well, that's wrong.

And Pelagianism has been condemned by basically every council throughout history, Reformed councils, even

Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, they condemn it, okay, because of various verses. It says, for example, like Romans 5 .19.

For as through the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous.

Now, folks, let me tell you, there's a lot here, a lot, I could teach on this, a lot, these two verses,

Romans 5 .18 and 5 .19, because they're related. But this is the sub point of verse 19.

I said, through one man's disobedience, that's Adam's sin, the many were made sinners, were made sinners.

Now, in Greek, that's the aorist passive indicative. Now, what does that mean?

This is what it means. Aorist is past tense, past tense, and passive deals with what's called voice.

There's active voice, middle voice, and passive voice in Greek.

We have it in English, too. People just don't talk like this. What's your, you know, the active voice of the structure of this, predicate nominative, you know, indirect object.

And so, what we do when you study Greek, you learn those kinds of things, because that's how you discuss what these things are in Greek, so you understand.

You know, if I were to say, what's the present active indicative first person singular of the verb to walk, they would give me that exact form.

I know exactly what it is. So, stuff like that. Now, this becomes important for the average person when we understand that when it says the many were made sinners, were made, that's in English, is the passive voice.

Let me explain what active, passive, and middle voice are. Active voice, I hit the ball.

Passive voice, I'm hit by the ball. Middle voice, I hit myself with the ball.

In active voice, I perform the action. In passive voice,

I receive the action. I'm not doing it, it's happening to me. In middle voice,

I'm performing the action on myself. So, this is important. So, the passive voice means

I receive the action. There's somebody else doing something or some other event is occurring, and then it affects me, it comes upon me, okay?

So, I walked out into the storm and I was made wet by the rain.

The rain came down, it made me wet. It drenched me.

I was made wet by the rain. That's a good example. Was made wet, okay?

That's the passive voice. I didn't make myself wet. I didn't take water and pour it on my head.

And that's the middle voice. No, I was out there and it happened. Like you could be in a room and a water pipe breaks and it gets you wet.

If you're passive in it, it's doing something and you're receiving the action of becoming wet, okay?

This is critical. Through the one man's disobedience, that's Adam's sin, the many were made sinners.

They received the action, they were made sinners by Adam's action. That's what the Bible says. So, I'm talking to this guy and I said this to him and he says, well, when you give a hyperliteral translation and he tried to dismiss what it meant by saying it's a hyperliteral translation.

And I said, but that's what it says in the Greek and it's important. And then he, you know, they say, well, you do the

Greek thing, you're trying to impress me. No, no, no, I'm just telling you what it is. And in the English, it's even were made sinners, which in the

English, it's a passive voice. In English, we have passive, active and middle voice in English. So I said, that's what happened to us.

Oh, they didn't like that. They didn't like that at all. And the conversation continued.

I'll tell you what else we got into, which is really interesting. If you wanna give me a call, the number is 877 -207 -2276.

Be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, welcome back everybody to the show. If you wanna give me a call, the number, 877 -207 -2276.

All right, so since nobody's calling, a lot of people don't when I start teaching like this because they just listen. And that's okay if you wanna call me.

Oh, there's someone coming in. But let me get through some of the stuff that I was saying. Now, I asked one of the gentlemen, now this is an important question.

It says, through the transgression of the one, through the disobedience of the one, the many were made sinners. And I asked, does the many include infants?

That was the killer question. And this guy could not answer the question. He said, other people this when they sin.

I said, I didn't ask that. I said, does it include infants? I notice a lot of times people don't answer my questions.

They answer something they think, they wanna answer instead. And they say that's the answer. It's not the answer. And so what happened was, interestingly, afterward, we got into the issue of prevenient grace.

And I'll get over this really quickly, prevenient grace. Prevenient grace is the grace that comes before that enables a person to freely choose

Jesus. And another person got in and started defending prevenient grace. And I even talked about this issue of, there's another issue

I wanna get into, probably after we'll see the caller, which I think is a Catholic guy, will be interesting, where God is a standard.

And we can get into that maybe a little bit. This is a really important theological point that a lot of people don't make, don't understand.

But prevenient grace, nevertheless, get back to that, is the grace that comes before. And I said to them,

I said, so it makes someone basically neutral, where they can just freely choose or not choose, right?

They said, yeah, okay. So then why is it Jesus says that you can't come to him unless it's granted to you from the

Father? And if that's the case, up to you to choose. And why does it say that it's granted that you believe by Jesus, by God?

Now, they can't answer these kind of questions. They can't, let me put it this way. They will say they can answer them, but I'm gonna say they don't answer the question.

They answer something related to the question, and they think that's the answer. They don't really focus on the specifics of what

I'm exactly asking. That's often the case, and it really is, and it was with them, and they went off to some other answer.

But I said, look, if God just makes us neutral, why is it that we have to be granted to believe by God?

It's granted to us. Ayer's passive indicative, again, happens to be in the same form there, that we receive the action of believing, that it happens to us.

Why is it that's the case if it's just up to us to make a decision? That's the question they can't answer from their perspective.

Ah, you know, so much theology, so little time.

Let's get to Bob from Nebraska. Bob, welcome, you're on the air. Hey, thanks,

Matt. It's good to be speaking with you again. The other day when we talked, we never even got to the topic of the rosary.

Chuck from North Carolina had called and was talking to you a little bit about the rosary, but it didn't sound like maybe either one of you knew too much about it, so I'm just kind of curious what your knowledge of the rosary is.

It's a set of beads that are prayed, and there's certain stations, I don't know if a station's the right word, or segments, and you do things in order, and the purpose is to help you remember what to do and how to do them in the proper way.

And you pray, some are our father's prayers, and some are to Mary, but more to Mary than a father.

Okay, yeah, and so when you pray the rosary, it's a very scriptural and a traditional prayer.

It's been around since the earliest days of the church in different forms, but yeah, so it's five decades, and a decade refers to 10

Hail Marys for each of the five decades, and you meditate on mysteries for each decade, and the mysteries are basically parts of the gospel, so parts of the life of Christ, but it all originates from the earliest days of Christianity when monks would pray the 150 psalms each day, and that's where the physical object kind of came about, because in order to remember which psalm they were on, they would use a knotted rope or stones or something like that, and so that's the tradition of using that object to keep track of where you're at on the prayer, because it takes about 20 to 25 minutes to pray it when you pray it.

So I didn't know if you'd ever heard of any of that stuff before. Yeah, I have. I've heard of all of this, it's just I haven't put it down in a specific order.

I have my notes on Catholicism, let's see, right there, and the notes are 240 pages, and some of it is just recitations or just copying what the

CCC says, so I have references in there to the notes, like probably 20 pages. Yeah, catechism's a great resource.

Any question you have about the church is pretty much at least referred to and sometimes pretty fully explained in that catechism.

Oh, well then I could ask some difficult questions out of the catechism for you then. Well, so what else do you,

I mean, do you know that, you know what the different meditations are in the rosary and the fact that the

Hail Mary that you pray is actually a very scriptural prayer, like the Our Father is? It's not a prayer to Mary.

That's, it's not scriptural, because you're praying to Mary that's not found in scripture. Yeah, so in Luke 128, you have the angelic salutation or exhortation, and then in Luke 1, 42 through 43, you have

St. Elizabeth, and that's called the evangelical exhortation, so that's where you get basically the first half of the

Hail Mary is just repetition of verses from scripture, which is a very

Christian thing to do, you know? So those are, that's why the Hail Mary is a very scriptural prayer.

No, it's not, because when it says, Luke 1, 28, when it said, you know, your highly favored one, that was the person praying to Mary at that point?

The person was recognizing that just, that was just a, you know, an address to Mary, so Hail Mary is, is

Hail, you know, Hail Mary, Hello Mary, and that's what the angel was saying, so that, you know, the

Ave, that's basically what it was. Was Gabriel praying to Mary? No, he was addressing

Mary, and so. So this is not part of that. Well, it actually is, so you know, you know, when we call out to somebody, you know, in a sense, it is, you know, praying for their attention, you know?

You say, hey, pray, tell me. You know, there's different ways to say that, but the

Ave Maria is simply the Latin form of that verse.

So when we're talking to each other on the radio here, is that praying to each other? No, but we can pray with each other, so I could say,

Matt, do you wanna say a prayer with me? And we could pray. So we're not praying to each other when we're talking to each other, and Gabriel was talking to Mary, that was not a prayer, and yet you guys take it and make it a prayer, but it wasn't intended to be a prayer.

Well, can't you use Scripture in your prayers? So even if, even if a verse of Scripture isn't, you know, the words of a prayer in and of itself, you can use that Scriptural verse to aid you in prayer, and that's really what the

Hail Mary does. It's just a recollection of the angels addressed to Mary and the

Annunciation, which is a very, very pivotal place in all of human history, so it's a great thing to remember in prayer.

Except that it's not a prayer, and if I am praying and I use

Scripture, I'm praying to God, so I don't pray to Mary, because she's a functioning goddess in that point.

Well, a prayer, you know, the Hail Mary is actually asking for Mary's intercession to pray with you, to intercede for you, just like I might ask you to pray for me and my family.

I'd say, Matt, you know, we're having some health issues or whatever, can you keep us in your prayers?

And you'd say, sure, Bob, I'd be happy to do that. And so, we call on, but we gotta break, we gotta break, hold on, sorry to interrupt.

We'll be right back, okay? Hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages. We gotta break, and hopefully the conversation will continue, so please stay tuned.

It's Matt Slick Live! Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, welcome back to the show. Let's see if Bob is still there.

Bob, are you still there? I am, Matt, I am, yeah. So, we're talking,

I guess, now about kind of the saints' ability to intercede for us or why people might include prayers with the saints in their prayers, right?

Yeah, is there anything in the New Testament about praying to saints or praying to Mary? Oh, I don't know.

I suppose that Romans 8 .35 through 39 talks about death can't separate us can't separate

Christians from Christ, and so if people have gone before us and they've led a exemplary life, a virtue, then they're probably, well, actually, we believe they're closer to Christ than we are here on Earth.

So, for instance, St. Thomas, the apostle, he's the patron saint of doubters and stuff, so if I pray for you tonight, then

I would ask St. Thomas to intercede on your behalf and help you open your heart to the full truth of the gospel.

Okay, so Thomas, can Thomas hear millions of prayers spoken from people in different languages, thought and spoken, all over the world simultaneously?

Well, I mean, we think that when we get to heaven, things are going to be much different than the physical experiences we have on Earth.

For instance, you agree that in heaven, space and time are not like the space and time that we understand as human beings, right?

I don't know if that's the case or not. I've not been there, so I can't tell. Neither should you, and since you don't know, you shouldn't make it a case and build a doctrine.

It isn't a pretty basic Christian understanding that God is outside of space and time.

No, I always tell people, don't say he's outside of space and time because we don't know what that means. Yeah, so the rules, the physical rules that we are governed by, just by the laws of nature on Earth, we don't believe necessarily apply in heaven.

Isn't that a fair statement? Okay, have you ever been to Turkey, for example, the country Turkey? I have, yeah.

Oh, okay, well, good. Well then, you know, my analogy wouldn't work. I'd say, if you've not been there, how would you know what it's like?

You don't know. It's like saying, you've never been to heaven? You don't know. How does time work there? You don't know.

Well, then don't make a doctrine based on something you don't know. But you've read the book of Revelation, right?

Yeah, and so the book of Revelation is highly symbolic. So when people tell me,

I don't care who it is, God's outside of time, what does that mean? They don't even know what it means. Well, then how do you say that's what

God is? If you don't even know what something is, don't attribute it to God. That's what I'm saying. Well, for instance, for instance, yeah.

Can Thomas hear millions of prayers simultaneously spoken and thought in different languages all over the world?

I believe he can, and I believe there's scripture that points out that, you know, Mary can do this right in scripture.

Well, but you yourself have said that. Where's that scripture? Yeah. Mary could hear millions of numbers. I'll give it to you in a second, but yeah,

I'll give it to you in a second. So you yourself, I think in our last conversation, we were talking about John 20, 21 through 23, and you explained

Christ's moment on the cross where he paid for all the sins of the believers on the cross.

And I'd like to talk about that a little bit more today, because you said something that was pretty interesting. But you say the now and the not yet.

So you explained that Christ's forgiveness on the cross has relation to this now and not yet because time does not apply necessarily to Christ in his glorified state.

I didn't say that. And so we would say other people that are in it. That's not my position.

That's not what I said either. Well, how would you explain your now and not yet then?

Because you're saying the sins that we commit today were forgiven by Christ 2 ,000 years ago on the cross.

I didn't say that. I paid for them, yeah, whatever your take on that is. But you basically say 2 ,000 years ago,

Christ works on the cross. And now today, we can, as soon as we believe our sins are forgiven because of the work he did, and that's the now and not yet aspect of your position.

No, I didn't say they're forgiven. I said Colossians 2, 14 says, Jesus canceled the certificate of debt having knelt on the cross.

So what I say is the certificate of debt was canceled at the cross. That's what I say. It's not canceled when you believe, because it's canceled when

Jesus did what he did 2 ,000 years ago, that's what the Bible says. It's not canceled. And then you say you're forgiven once you believe, right?

That's when you're justified, yeah. Yes, because forgiveness is something we experience as is justification.

But I'm born, for example, 2 ,000 years after Jesus was on the cross. So exactly 2 ,000, but you know, 2 ,000 years later.

So he borne my sin in his body on the cross, 1 Peter 2, 24. That's an example of the now and the not yet.

And the only way I'm aware of to explain this is with election predestination and federal headship.

It's the only way I'm aware of. Maybe somebody else has got another theory from scripture, but I can back up this idea that we're elected in Christ, predestined, and that Christ represented us, federal headship.

And that when we were on the cross, since God knows all things eternally, et cetera, he imputed to Christ the sins of the elect, the chosen ones.

And Christ, because he says in John 10, 11, he lays his life down for the sheep. In John 10, 26, he says, you're not my sheep.

So he says who he does it for, the sheep, not the goats. That's what Jesus says.

And it gets some other stuff. So that's what my position, that's my position. So the now, the not yet is Jesus now was our not yet, that he was 2 ,000 years ago on the cross as a man, just like I am and just like you are, in real time, real space.

But somehow, someway, all the sins of mankind, past, present, future, that I believe is the elect though, were imputed to Christ on that cross at that moment, or that moment, but then that hour, whatever you want to call it, right there on that cross.

That's what I believe. And that's where he canceled the sin debt. Not when you believe, not when you get baptized, because the Bible says it's on the cross.

Not when you believe, doesn't say when it gets canceled, when you get baptized. Well, I think that if you're gonna say you're unclear whether God operates in the same space and time that we do,

I think you're departing from Orthodox Christianity and that I think the majority of Orthodox Christianity over the centuries has understood

God to operate in God's place and time.

And that's without the restraints that we have. For instance, when Christ was on the

Sea of Galilee and he told the apostles to, he was over by Capernaum and he told the apostles to go across and then the storm happened and Christ appeared on the water.

He steps, actually, Peter steps out of the boat for a few seconds and walks and then sinks.

And then all of a sudden, after Christ saves him, they appear on shore.

So that would be an instance in scripture where maybe the confines of space and time, the matter don't have an impact on Christ.

He's able to surpass that. Or maybe he just has access to other physical laws we're not aware of and just act according to space and time.

That would be, yeah, that would be what I'm saying about space and time. What I'm saying is, if you don't know what it is, don't say that's what it is.

That's all I'm saying. I say that God relates to time and space differently than we do. That's as far as I go,

I don't know to what extent. It's just different. And so we think that that is, anybody that's glorified in heaven has that capability.

Yeah, you're just saying it. As much as God allows for it. Well, yeah, you're just saying it. Just tell me your belief, just tell me your belief.

Except that the Bible says, don't go beyond what's written, 1 Corinthians 4, 6. So then that what you're doing at this point is going beyond what's written in the word of God.

You don't, the Bible never says - Well, your founder, Martin Luther, didn't agree with that, but - Who cares about Martin Luther? We're talking about scripture, what

God says right now. And so the issue here is, you're not to exceed what's written in the word of God. Nothing in the word of God says that Mary, for example, can hear millions of prayers simultaneously spoken and thought in different languages, and she can comprehend them as well as know the intentions of their heart so she can answer them.

That's a goddess. Well, actually, in mass on Sunday, yeah, in mass on Sunday, we celebrated the presentation in the temple, which

I'm sure you're familiar with, where Simeon is addressing

Mary, right? And in among what he says, he says also that,

I think it's in verse 35. So look at Luke 1, 35. Two, I think it is.

And he says that a sword will pierce your heart also so that the thoughts of many will be revealed.

Okay, you're not answering the question, though. It just happens a lot. I ask a question,

I make a statement, people don't respond to it. They respond to something else. But you said, is there a verse in scripture that would indicate that Mary is capable of hearing the prayers of multiple people at one moment?

Yeah, where's that? You know, that's just something that - A sword will pierce even your own soul till the end of the thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.

That means Mary can hear millions of prayers? Well, what do you, you know, if you're reading that scripture verse, you're saying the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed.

Matt, as a man sitting in Idaho today, I think that's where you're at.

Can you - Yeah, right, sorry about that. Can you have the thoughts of many hearts revealed to you? No, I'm not a goddess or a god.

Hold on, we got a break, hold on. Okay, hey, folks, we'll be right back after these messages, and then hopefully

I'm gonna ask him some questions. We'll see how that goes. Some good questions. We'll be right back after these messages.

Please stay tuned. It's Matt Slick Live!

Taking your calls at 877 -207 -2276. Here's Matt Slick.

All right, everybody, welcome back to the last segment of the hour. Bob, are you still there? I am,

Matt, I am. Okay. So basically, you know, I look at 2 .35,

and I see a very interesting verse. And to be honest with you, it just came to me at Sunday Mass when we were reading this part of the gospel, and I thought, this is really interesting because this might be an indication that Mary has the ability to, you know, reveal the hearts and the thoughts of many, which would be prayers, like the angel in Zechariah 1, verses 12 through 16, that could hear the prayers of the people of Israel and took those prayers to God, who then, you know, had mercy on Jerusalem in that passage.

So there would be a correlation between verses like that. Yeah, I think you're implying something that's not there.

So let me get this straight. So you're affirming that Mary can hear millions of prayers simultaneously spoken and thought in different languages all over the world and know the intentions of each individual praying all simultaneously and comprehending them, right?

Yeah, that's what I believe. I think that's what many, you know, many

Christians, including all Catholics, believe. Then how is she not a functioning goddess? She's not.

I mean, she's limited to the role that God gave her, which was a human being.

You know, when we die, we don't become angels, as many people mistakenly think.

I was going to ask how she's not a functioning goddess. Because in, you know, ancient, I did some research on Greek and Roman gods, goddesses, and they have the same abilities that Mary has.

I mean, they're goddesses. Well, those are all fictional. Mary was a real person, as you know. She's a historical human being.

Yeah, she was, but I believe that Mary you serve, I believe that Mary you serve is fictional. So. I don't serve

Mary. She is the epitome of the perfect, you know, disciple of Christ.

So you look to people that are exemplary figures, you know, people to look up to and to imitate, as Paul says, imitate us, right?

So we look to those people to imitate. Well, let's see if you serve Mary or not. Let's see if you agree with this out of paragraph 972 out of the

Catechism of the Catholic Church. It says, after speaking of the church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary.

So after speaking of the church, her origin, the origin of the church, the mission of the church, the destiny of the church, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary.

Do you agree with that? Let's see, after speaking of the church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary.

I think what the passage is saying is that Mary is the perfect example of a faithful and humble disciple of Christ.

And scripture would show that's true. It goes on to say, in her we contemplate what the church already is in her mystery and her own pilgrimage of faith and what she'll be in the homeland at the end of her journey there.

And they're speaking of the church. Well, let me ask you, who originated the Christian church? Was it

Mary or Jesus? It was Jesus. Who gives the church its mission? Through Mary, I mean, you know.

Who gives the church its mission? Is it Mary or Jesus? Jesus, at the end of Matthew.

The church's mission is to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the

Son and the Holy Spirit. Who gives the church its destiny, appoints a destiny? Is it Mary or is it

Jesus? The church's destiny would be a Trinitarian origin,

I think. Okay, good. So it says, after speaking of the church, her origin, mission, and destiny, which you said all of it's based about Christ, we can find no better way to conclude about looking to Mary.

I guess, so looking to Mary's better than looking to Jesus regarding the origin of the church, the mission of the church, and the destiny of the church.

That's what it says. But it says, after speaking of the church, her origin, mission, and destiny, then we look to Mary as the perfect model of a

Christian, which is a model of patience and mercy and humility and obedience to her

Son. That's not what it says there. It says, after speaking of the church. I think that's what that sentence says and that's what that sentence means.

If you read it in context of the whole paragraph. It doesn't say that.

After speaking of the church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary regarding the church's origin, mission, and destiny.

After speaking of the church, her origin, the origin of the church, the mission of the church, the destiny of the church, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary.

Wow. What does it mean by saying no better way to conclude? that by saying it means no better way to conclude that means that we as Christians need to after speaking of the very church the origin mission and destiny who are we going to model ourselves after as humans of course we always want to okay we always want to follow

Christ but as a human what human did that better than any other human on the face of the earth that's

Mary oh I don't know that's what that paragraph says I don't know if that's the case I don't well without tell me a sin that Mary committed well she okay look it doesn't say she committed a sin it doesn't say that's right that Matthew committed a sin either doesn't say

Joseph committed a sin so if you're gonna say it doesn't say that they committed sin therefore they didn't have any sin is ridiculous because that same logic would apply to others so yeah but in all of this history yeah and all of Christian history the

Christians have always have always believed that Mary was was sinless she knows that's not true no

I'm sorry you haven't done your homework there that's just not true but look so here's the thing is that you're saying that Mary has the ability the same ability as a goddess you know it's a prayers yeah that's that's what a goddess let me oh that's what

I don't let me do well that's what a goddess can do in fiction but in that's what I'm yeah because I got a mystery in Christian history certain certain figures in Christian history can be venerated to a higher degree so in the

Old Testament you have figures like Moses and Abraham and David and and people like that in the

New Testament you have the Apostles you have Joseph Mary so so you have certain people that Paul tells us we are supposed to imitate and so Mary in in excuse me venerator how do you better Mary you venerate

Mary by recognize her unique role in in Christian history and her unique role is that she you know is the mother of God she's the mother of Jesus Christ who is

God in man and recognizing certain qualities for us she models for us the perfect obedience to the

Son throughout and you know she has seminal place in Christian history and then do you also kneel before Mary do you bow down before I'm do you like prostrate before Mary you yes you do

I know yeah you can you can certainly you can actually yeah you can actually be on a knee in front of another human being you know so hold on you might talk about Mary about Mary not just another human being

Mary who can hear millions of prayers simultaneously spoken and thought all over the world and she can comprehend them and answer them that's a functioning goddess and according to the

Bible when they would in your God and when they would venerate God they bow down to God they bow down to Mary they relate prostrate before God they do prostration before Mary they'd kiss objects only but that's only mentioned in paganism in Baal in first Kings 19 but they kiss

Mary I've seen churches where they kiss the statues of Mary they do pilgrimages in the Old Testament they did pilgrimages to the holy hills holy mountains do the same thing with Mary the very same thing in fact when they do with Mary do the same thing with God you do with Mary in fact you give similar attributes to Mary you give to God she's a functioning

God I don't think so no I mean we don't we don't believe that that Mary can you know create we don't think that Mary can you know make the perfect sacrifice like Christ didn't forgive them whoa whoa whoa but but what

Ludwig Mary what Mary can do Luke it contradicts you he said that Mary by entering into the spiritual sacrifice of a divine son that made atonement for our sins yeah

I've never met Ludwig got so I don't I don't know what he says but I know what the church says in their church says that but that has a neolog study in for modern which means it's official it means it's nothing in it contradicts scripture or context with teaching of the church is given by a bishop or I think is a bishop or a cardinal to Bishop and so it says

Mary by her spiritual entering into the divine sacrifice of her son made atonement for our sins no

I yeah yeah I don't know who Ludwig God is but what

I'll tell you is that you know in the in the glory of the most holy and undivided Trinity in the communion of all the

Saints the church is awaited by the one Mary venerates and as mother of her

Lord and as her own mother is the church sees Mary as the mother of the church so it goes clear back to you know

Ephesus and 431 when the church declared mother is the or Mary is the mother of God it's been centuries before your type of theology came along and wanted to wipe that all away so you've got a much more modern view of yeah

I've been to Ephesus to you and stuff but I got another question running out of time I got this change topic

I got a question for you okay the one to ask you okay we'll see okay I'm gonna test you

I'm trying to trick you here okay all right trying to set you up ready you are aren't I am

I'm trying okay okay all right go ahead go ahead some malicious stuff so now to you

Catholics and Muslims do you serve and worship the same God yeah you know there is one

God and different people have different approaches to worshipping the thing that they identify as God now

I think that the Trinitarian God is certainly the Catholic God and Muslims deny the

Trinity so in that sense no okay do they think that they do they adore the one merciful

God just like you do there's claim to do you well they don't

I mean because we're Trinitarian they answer to that would be no I think they think they do

I think you know they see something as the as the all -powerful creator yeah as we do but they don't

I they don't recognize the Trinity so it's flawed okay so paragraph 841 in the

Catechism of the Catholic Church which also has a neolobe stop and the imprimatur just like Ludwig von

Ott's book Ludwig Ott's book page 213 which says about Mary doing the atonement so the church's relationship to the

Muslim the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place amongst whom are the

Muslims these profess to hold the faith of Abraham and together with us they adore the one merciful

God mankind's judge on the last day yeah but they only they only adored one person of the

Trinity so that'd be the Creator so they're you know maybe they're the wonderful God they have the it says the one merciful

God but it says the plan they they acknowledge the Creator so that God one person of the

Trinity this is 841 okay yeah I'm looking at Muslims these profess to hold the faith of Abraham and together with us two

Muslims with the Catholics they adore the one merciful God mm -hmm so yeah he's so God the

Father that didn't say that they won't call him father but that's who they that's who they mean so so they're they're looking at one person of the

Trinity and so we're saying okay so the Jews what would you say about the

Jews did they acknowledge hold on we're not the Creator we're talking about Islam right now so I want you to I'm just focusing here so paragraph 841 says that that you guys and the

Muslims adore the one merciful God the same one that's not true others and and you do too as a

Christian you would say God not what the father is the Creator and you worship him no

Muslims have a false God okay we don't have yeah I think they have certainly have a false perception of God they're very limited

God okay we got to go there's a miss I'm sorry buddy call back tomorrow all right sorry hard to rush you off maybe

I don't pull all right see you Matt thank you okay hey folks right here God bless talk tomorrow another program powered by the truth