July 6, 2023 Show with Jason Cherry on “The Culture of Conversionism & the History of the Altar Call”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of Founding Father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century Gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensirenradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this 6th day of July, 2023.

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And I am thrilled to have back on the program a guest that I recently interviewed and was so thoroughly blessed and edified by that conversation.

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I wanted to have him back as soon as possible. His name is Jason Cherry, an elder of Trinity Reform Church in Huntsville, Alabama, as well as a teacher and lecturer of literature,

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American history, and economics at Providence Classical School in Huntsville. Today we're going to be addressing

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Jason's book, The Culture of Conversionism and the History of the

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Altar Call. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Jason Cherry.

02:09

Thanks, Chris. It's a pleasure to be here. And why don't you, for the sake especially of our listeners who did not hear you on the program last time, let them know something about Trinity Reform Church in Huntsville, Alabama.

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Yeah, this is a church that started in August of 2020, really during the

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COVID shutdowns. We'd been working on a church plant for several years, and then the

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COVID shutdowns happened. And so we started worshiping in a backyard in that summer.

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And we realized that this was the time to actually launch the church, which officially then launched in August of 2020.

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And so we started worshiping in a backyard. And we're at a point now where we've got 350 members.

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So we've grown very quickly, and it's been the blessing of the Lord and one of the great blessings of my life to be a part of this work.

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And the Lord is gathering together some incredible families that are eager to serve the

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Lord together in such a way, honestly, I've never seen it before. It's clearly a work of grace of what he's doing here in Huntsville.

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Praise God. And also tell us about the Classical Christian School where you serve on the faculty.

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Yes, this is a school that started in 1996, and it's a classical school located in the heart of Huntsville.

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And it's a unique place. It gathers together families who want to give their kids not just a classical education, but a

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Christian education. And as part of the secondary faculty, a big part of my job is to really teach the

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Christian worldview to them through history and literature and economics, which are the main subjects that I teach.

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And this is a great group of families and kids who are being raised in the Lord and going off to do great things.

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In fact, I had breakfast this morning with a former student of mine who's walking very faithfully with the Lord, and that's one of my greatest pleasures is to see former students like that.

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Praise God. Well, if anybody is visiting Huntsville, Alabama, or if you live in or near Huntsville, Alabama, or if you have family, friends, and loved ones who live in or near Huntsville, Alabama, I will give you the contact information for this fine church,

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Trinity Reformed Church. It is trinityreformedkirk, K -I -R -K, the

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Scottish word for church, trinityreformedkirk .com. And also, the website for Providence Classical School in Huntsville, Alabama.

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You may visit providenceclassical .org, providenceclassical .org.

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I might also recommend that at some point you listen to some interviews

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I conducted on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, specifically on the subject of the advantages of classical

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Christian education. I conducted one interview with Pete Hegseth of Fox News, who has a passion to promote and establish classical

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Christian schools across the country. He was also joined by two headmasters,

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Steve Schultz, and actually Corey Gelbaugh is on the board of his classical

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Christian school. He's not a headmaster. But that took place on September 26th of last year.

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If you type in Hegseth, H -E -G -S -E -T -H, into the search engine, that will come up because he's the only person

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I ever interviewed with that name. And then on May 16th, 2023, more recently,

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I had Will Stelzer of Our Savior New American School on Center Reach, Long Island, and Corey Gelbaugh returned of the

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Logos School of Carlisle, Pennsylvania to discuss, once again, classical

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Christian education. So I hope that you will look up those interviews.

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The latter interview, if you type in classical

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Christian school or just classical Christian, that will come up.

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So I hope that you reap great benefits from listening to those programs. Well, I'm going to give our audience our email address right away.

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It's chrisarnson at gmail .com. If you want to submit questions of your own regarding especially the history of the altar call, quite a controversial subject, that's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and country of residence. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Let's say you are in a church that practices altar calls, and you have become increasingly uncomfortable with that practice, and you do not want to draw attention to your own identity yet because you are still in that church.

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Maybe it's the reverse. Your church doesn't practice altar calls, and you're disturbed by that and want them to do that and have not quite understood why my guest and I are opposed to that practice.

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But whatever the case may be that would compel you to remain anonymous, we will respect your request.

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But if you're asking a general question on Scripture and on church history, please give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

07:48

Well, let's start with the title. I think this may be the first time

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I have ever read the word conversionism. I may be wrong.

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I know what revivalism is. In fact, I think the first time I heard the word revivalism was when

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I read Ian Murray's excellent book, Revival and Revivalism, a publication of Banner of Truth, Revival and Revivalism, the

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Making and Marring of American Evangelicalism. Not only did

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I truly enjoy reading that book by Ian Murray, but he preached on this subject at the church where I was once a member before relocating to Pennsylvania, Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Long Island in Merrick, New York.

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But if you could, compare and contrast and also obviously define conversionism and revivalism.

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Yes, so let's start with conversionism, and it's not a term I coined. I have seen it here and there, like David Bebbington, the evangelical

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British historian, uses it as one of his four markers of what is an evangelical. He says they believe in conversionism, but he's just using the term there very broadly to mean

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Christians who believe that people need conversion. I'm using the term a little more narrowly to really have as four characteristics as I use the term.

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Conversionism, as I use the term, means that you have to do something to be saved, which means you have to walk an aisle, you have to say a prayer, you have to sign a card.

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Also conversionism is when the emphasis is on the fact that you have to make a decision for Christ.

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And so your conversion then is a product of the exercise of your human will, and that's where the phrase decisionalism often comes into this kind of discussion.

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The third characteristic of conversionism is that it has to be sudden. It's the idea that conversions follow a kind of a cookie cutter model, usually based off Paul's Damascus Road experience.

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And so conversion needs to be sudden, it needs to be this crisis conversion moment that's usually happening within the context of a high -pressure altar call.

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And then the fourth characteristic of conversionism is this idea that it comes from this sort of external pressure.

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And so the preacher's job is basically to give this high -pressure sales job to someone who needs

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Christ. So that's my definition of conversionism, and I also refer to the culture of conversionism.

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Let me explain what that is. One of the things I want to do is I want to understand how did we get to this point.

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So how did we get to this point in American evangelicalism where we have the altar call? And it's just such a basic assumption of what evangelism is.

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Then I want to understand how did we get to a point where we think of conversion like we do?

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And the culture of conversionism basically is the intersection of the use of the altar call with conversionism as I just defined it.

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Now the other question you asked was about revival and revivalism, and you mentioned Ian Murray's fine book there.

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I think there is a difference between revival and revivalism, and revival being something that's more of a spontaneous work of the spirit, revivalism being something that's more man's attempt to use certain means to manufacture revival.

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One of the best definitions of revival that I found was from an 1849 Methodist periodical.

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It defined revival as those outpourings of the spirit which result in the quickening of the church and the conversion of sinners.

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I think that's an excellent definition of revival. Revivalism, though, is when man comes along and tries to help the spirit along because perhaps the spirit's working too slow.

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Well it brings my heart joy that we can sometimes occasionally find accurate definitions from Methodism.

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So I'm assuming then you would believe that it is improper for Baptist churches and Pentecostal churches and Charismatic churches and many mainstream

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Evangelical churches to advertise we are having a revival meeting on a

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Sunday and such a date in August, inviting people to experience revival as if they could schedule on a calendar when a revival is going to be occurring.

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Yeah, that is concerning to me when we use that language, as common as it is. The problem there is that the

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Holy Spirit, the Holy Ghost, the Holy Wind of God, just the name of the

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Holy Ghost, the Holy Wind of God, implies that the spirit blows where he wants to blow.

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The spirit has particular actions that he's going to carry out to fulfill the Father's plan and we don't know exactly what those are, but the idea that we can just schedule the spirit to show up when we want is a troublesome concept.

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Of course, we do believe in means, means of prayer, means of the Word of God. It's not that we don't believe that we have tasks to carry out and faithfully so, it's that we're going to faithfully fulfill our tasks and we're going to pray that the spirit comes, but the idea that we can schedule ahead of time when the spirit is going to show up and actually do a work of revival, a thing we should all want, especially the direction our country is heading,

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I don't know that that comports with what we see in Scripture. Now, I'm assuming you might give a pass to a church that has a, let's say, a tent revival meeting, but they make it clear in their promotion of this event that they are praying for revival, not that they are actually scheduling a revival as if they could determine a date of a revival.

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Yeah, and I think you're right to point that out. That term is just used a lot now, and I don't think everyone means the same thing by it.

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And I think when a lot of people plan revival meetings, as it's often discussed, what they're doing there is they're going to have some extra services where they're going to worship the

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Lord, they're going to preach, and of course, they're hoping to revive. They're hoping to bring back to life their church, and that's a good thing.

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We should want the Spirit's life to be in our churches. So, yeah, I think you're right that a lot of people do use that term just merely because they're giving some extra attention to the things of God, the

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Word of God, the singing and worship to the Lord in hopes that that will stir their people to faithfulness.

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And what were the compelling factors that led you to the point where you said, I've got to write a book on the culture of conversionism and the history of the altar call?

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Well, it was sheer curiosity. I wanted to know when did the altar call start?

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Why did it start? What were the conditions in which it started? I think most people have a vague notion that the altar call maybe started around the time of Charles Finney.

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A lot of people have a vague idea of when it started, but I wanted to know the particulars.

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And then I was also curious on how did it shape our understanding in American evangelicalism of conversion itself?

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And so part of my concern is what you see in what I call the culture of conversionism is that you have the conversion event at the center of the

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Christian life. But what then happens is that everything else in the Christian life, from just your understanding of deeper theology to just the practices of the church, living in faithfulness, those things become secondary.

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They become secondary to the point that they're not taught, that people don't know how to live, that people don't know how to live a faithful Christian life because every sermon is about getting someone converted.

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And so when the entire Christian life is viewed through the lens of that single crisis conversion event, then all the other aspects of the faithful Christian life become secondary.

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They're drained of energy. And I think that's a big part of why we see the

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American evangelical church in such a position, in a weak position now, because we haven't emphasized the totality of Scripture and that a relationship with the

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Lord, yes, it begins with a conversion. And that's really important that we define that properly and have methods that match what

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Scripture teaches about it. But it's also important to show that when someone is converted and receives the sovereign grace of God, their life is transformed and your life should look a certain way.

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And so we need to live out the truth of our conversion, and I'm afraid that too many people, mainly because every service is a superficial pitch to get someone converted, that people haven't been taught the whole counsel of God and what the

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Christian life even is. All right. So, if you will, trace back for us in history, the origins of the altar call.

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I used to very frequently say something that I have heard, even by opponents of the altar call, is in error.

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There are some that may still defend what I used to say, but I will cease saying it until I am proven the correct story.

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I used to immediately say when I had been either confronted by somebody who was a proponent of the altar call, a practitioner of the altar call, or if it came up on my show,

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I would say it has its origins in Charles Finney and the anxious bench. But people on both sides of the issue have corrected me and say, no, it started happening before then.

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So why don't you explain your understanding of history in this regard? Yeah, and that's right.

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Finney is not the Edison of the altar call, and I'm sure we'll get to Finney at some point, and he does have an incredible impact on how the altar call is used.

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And it's really difficult to find when was the first time someone did an altar call.

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I think that's really difficult to find. First, we should probably even define what an altar call is, and I think it's best to define it broadly because it does take different forms over time and in different churches.

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But basically, the idea of an altar call is that usually at the end of a sermon, a preacher kind of exits out of sermon time and then issues an invitation for people who want to be saved to usually have a visible response, usually to come forward.

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And at that time, they'll be maybe counseled or they'll be led to pray the sinner's prayer, at which point they'll be told that they are now irrevocably a

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Christian. So that's the basic, most general definition of an altar call. Over time, though, it has changed and looked differently.

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It's hard to find the very first instance of an altar call. There is one report from the 1740s from a guy named

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Eleazar Wheelock that he gave an altar call, but I don't like tracing it back to him for two reasons.

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One is because it reads to me like maybe that didn't actually historically happen, the sometimes the story goes with him in the 1740s, because when you read the description, it sounds like a very mature form of the altar call rather than all the primitive forms of the altar call that you see popping up in the 1770s.

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So it has the hint of revisionism to some of those accounts, but also that didn't start the methodological movement of altar call

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Christianity. You really see that coming along with the camp meetings in the late 1700s.

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There are some early accounts of what we could call an altar call in the 1770s, usually in a frontier context.

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So these are often outdoor meetings, tent meetings, as you referenced earlier, and they're actually used early on for very practical reasons, not for theological reasons.

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It's not because they're committed to Arminianism necessarily. It's because they're out on the frontier.

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They're preaching the gospel. They've got a large crowd, and it's rather unruly when you're gathered outside, and they see that there are people moved by the gospel that need further attention, and so they need to identify them so that they can isolate them from the congregation and give them personal attention to their soul.

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And so it's really a practical thing that's happening in some of those early accounts that I've read in the 1770s.

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And then you see the camp meeting movements that really pop up as you transition into the Second Great Awakening in the late 1770s and early 1800s.

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And what they would do is, in anticipation of conversions, is they would set aside a spot at the front.

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They would call it the mourner's bench. Others would call it the anxious bench or the anxious seat.

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And the idea there was, at the end of the service, if anyone was anxious for their soul and wanted to be saved, that they could come forward and sit on that bench, and then usually they would get some special attention from the preacher there at the end of the service.

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So you start to see those kind of primitive versions of the altar call in the late 1700s and early 1800s.

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Really, by the 1770s, you see kind of a pattern of these sorts of altar calls. And then by the early 1800s,

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Second Great Awakening, it's becoming relatively common in the context of camp meeting revivals.

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Okay, we're going to go to our first commercial break right now. If anybody has a question, there are already some folks waiting to have their questions asked and answered on the air.

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But if you'd like to get in line, please send me a question to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter involving our subject today.

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That's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jason Cherry and the culture of conversionism and the history of the altar call right after these messages from our sponsors.

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The Culture of Conversionism and the History of the Altar Call, and we do have a listener who is remaining anonymous, and the listener says,

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I am a Reformed Christian and have become increasingly disturbed and dismayed by the fact that my church rarely has any kind of an invitation to those who are commanded to repent and believe in the gospel.

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I'm not talking about altar calls or anything that involves physical movements, but I'm just talking about an appeal to the hearts of those, and when it comes to your comment earlier about a decision being made,

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I believe in the Reformed Ordo Salutis that regeneration precedes conversion and faith and repentance, but at the same time, we are commanded to make decisions as we see in Joshua 24 15, where we see that we are commanded, choose this day whom ye will serve, whether the gods which your father served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the

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Amorites in whose land ye dwell, but as for me and my house, we will serve the

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Lord. If you could comment, please. Well, I agree with everything

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I heard in that comment, so, and this is one of the common, I think, mistakes or misunderstandings of this debate, so you're getting, this question is getting into kind of the theological nitty -gritty of the doctrine of free will, and that is certainly at the heart of this because conversion culture, or altar call culture and the culture of conversionism defaults to an

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Arminian sort of theology, which basically says that human beings are the final determining factor in salvation rather than God.

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Calvinists say that God is the final determining factor in salvation, but when Calvinists say that God is the final determining factor in salvation, that doesn't mean that human beings are robots.

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No, human beings believe willingly. The question is why do they believe willingly?

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Why do they respond in faith to the preacher who proclaims the gospel?

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Well, it's because the sovereign grace of God has worked in their heart, and I think we would do well to really shore up our theology of the human will, and that's why

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I think Jonathan Edwards' book, The Freedom of the Will, is one of the most important books that's ever been written by an

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American theologian, and I can go through the Edwardsian distinction that he makes in that book, but when you understand the human will, so you've got this book in 1754 written by Jonathan Edwards called

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The Freedom of the Will. You go about 200 years before that, you've got Martin Luther. He wrote a book called The Bondage of the

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Will, and you just look at the titles, and you would think, well, that's talking about two different things, or maybe even making conflicting arguments.

36:12

In reality, they're making much the same argument. It's a matter of emphasis, and what Jonathan Edwards does in Freedom of the

36:19

Will is he makes a distinction between a human being's natural ability and their moral inability, and so The Freedom of the

36:29

Will, Edwards is arguing that human beings are completely free to do whatever they find in their heart to do, and so they have full natural ability.

36:42

Even after the fall, Edwards is arguing, they have full natural ability. That is, there is no obstacle in the human constitution that keeps them from freely choosing whatever his greatest desire is, so mankind is free to do whatever he finds in his heart to do.

36:57

His will has full natural ability. The problem, as Martin Luther's book emphasizes, is that he has a moral inability, which means that man, because of his sin nature inherited from Adam, man neither wants nor is inclined to spiritual things.

37:17

Mankind is unable to choose contrary to his strongest motivation. Well, as a slave to sin, as someone who's dead in sin, what is man's strongest motivation?

37:27

It's sin, and so apart from the sovereign grace of God overcoming that sinful resistance, what will man choose?

37:33

Well, man will always willingly choose to reject the gospel, and so man is morally unable to choose spiritual things, not because he can't, but because he doesn't want to, and so it's that key

37:47

Edwardsian distinction that I think gives us a more robust understanding of the human will and the nature of this question.

37:53

So natural ability states that man is able. Moral inability states that man is not willing because he is dead in sin, as Ephesians 2 .1

38:02

says. He's blinded by Satan, as 2 Corinthians 4 .4 says. He's bound by iniquity due to the fact that all have sinned in Adam, as Romans 5 .12

38:11

-21 says, and so man's nature is morally corrupt, naturally carrying out the desires of the heart, incapable of spiritual good, and always moving away from God, according to 1

38:22

Corinthians 2 .14. And so people are always exercising the free choice of their will.

38:30

Apart from the sovereign grace of God, though, people always willingly choose to reject the gospel of Christ.

38:37

When the Spirit comes on someone, changes their heart, moves in their heart, makes that heart of stone into a heart of flesh, like we read about in the book of Ezekiel, then their heart is changed such that when they behold the beauty of the glory of the grace of God, they can't help but believe.

38:53

And when they believe, when they have faith, that is their faith. That's the expression of their will that has been divinely enabled to see the truth of Jesus Christ.

39:05

Now, just to clarify some of those things. So I'm assuming you would agree with a summary statement that man, even in his unregenerate state, can choose to do anything he wants to, but the question is, what does he want?

39:29

And we choose according to our nature. And therefore, if we are enslaved to a sinful nature, we are going to choose things that only and primarily please ourselves.

39:44

And the other thing is, many people who are

39:49

Arminian, or just outside of the reformed camp of theology, they will reject what you are saying, and they will reject the ordo salutis of the reformed faith, because—and they will reject perseverance of the saints also—because they have witnessed with their own eyes, and they even may be the person themselves that they're thinking of, who seemed as if they truly believed in the gospel.

40:22

They were excited. There were tears that rolled down their cheeks when they came to make a public profession of faith.

40:33

And then, could have been six months later, could have been five years later, a decade later, two decades later, they had totally abandoned the faith and proved beyond doubt that they are not regenerate by the way that they are living.

40:49

Some of them may become atheists and the most vile and grotesque kinds of criminals unrepentantly until they die.

40:59

So, we would say, if I'm not mistaken, you can clarify or correct me if I'm wrong, we would say that no matter what that person is thinking or what those around them think in witnessing such a profession of faith, that it was not a genuine conversion and the benefits that the person thought that they were receiving by making that profession were the primary factor involved.

41:33

There was something—perhaps it was just because they finally felt accepted by a group of loving, caring people in a church that they've never experienced, or the notion of a god of some kind, a superior power having affection and love toward them, the notion of that melted them to tears and they really believed that they were truly

41:58

Christian for a while, as did those around them. But then it just was proven later to be a false conversion where the person wasn't truly surrendered to the gospel at all costs in order to follow

42:16

Christ. Am I making sense here? Absolutely, and you referred to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, and I'm afraid that is one of the things that gets neglected in the culture of conversionism.

42:28

When you reduce the Christian life down to the conversion event, what happens thereafter just by deduction doesn't matter as much, and that's why

42:35

I think that doctrine has been neglected. But yes, true saving faith will persevere to the end.

42:41

That doesn't mean sinless perfection, that will come when Christ returns, but it means that the habits of your life, the trajectory of your faith is going towards holiness.

42:52

And so, yes, the perseverance of the saints, which is manifested through the Spirit, is a frequent subject of Scripture.

42:59

You see it emphasized in Hebrews. You see it also in particular passages referring to the fact that someone seems to have faith for a while but then falls away.

43:07

And yes, that's very discouraging. I mean, just look at Judas, for example. He seemed to have faith for a while and then fell away in the most drastic of ways, and those kinds of examples are frequent in Scripture.

43:17

Another one is 1 John 2, verse 19. They went out from us, but they were not of us.

43:25

And I think that proves, again, what you were mentioning, that it proves that that faith initially wasn't genuine.

43:31

But it says they went out from us, which means for a while they appeared to be of us.

43:36

They were with us. They were rubbing shoulders with us. They were in the prayer meeting. They were at the services. And it may not have been an intentional act of a charlatan.

43:47

It may have been a genuinely, quote, quote, felt belief, something that not only the person themselves believed was real, but those surrounding them.

43:57

And I think the way to explain that is the parable of the sower. You've got four types of soil. In three of the four, the person eventually falls away.

44:05

But in that parable, when you go back and read it, it says for a while the plant grew, but then for various causes, it withered and died.

44:13

And so, yes, there's a moment of growth. And when you're just looking at that little moment in time, things seem to be well. But that's not how a saint is determined.

44:23

You know, does it persevere to the end? Does it bear fruit to the end? That's the sign of the saints.

44:29

That's the sign of true saving faith. We have another anonymous listener who asks, I am in the midst of argument with my dear fundamentalist friends who are anti -Calvinist, and they repeatedly hurl at me the verse from Revelation chapter 22, verse 17, be whosoever will may come and whosoever will let him take the water of life freely.

44:57

How should a reformed Christian respond to this? Yes, and of course, similarly,

45:05

John 3, 16 is often used as some sort of an attempt of some sort of proof text to prove the

45:11

Arminian theological position. That would be usually particularly about the atonement or the death of Christ.

45:18

Yeah, and I think what you see in Scripture is that the call of the gospel goes out to the whole world.

45:24

You see this in the preaching of Paul in the book of Acts, Acts chapter 17. He commands all people everywhere to repent.

45:30

That doesn't mean all of them will. So yes, and then also I think the passage, and it's in John chapter 6, verse 36, is really helpful because in a very succinct way, in that way that only

45:41

Jesus seems to do, you see him actually bringing a couple of elements together. So John chapter 6, verse 36, actually it's verse 37, all that the

45:53

Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never cast out.

45:59

I think when you work through the logic of that verse, what you see there is the call of the gospel goes out, and all of those that the

46:06

Father has given me, Jesus says, they will come. And when they come, that is when they come with willing faith,

46:14

Christ will receive them and not cast them out. And so I think there's a lot of biblical explanations for those kinds of passages that were quoted in that question.

46:24

And even for the sake of basic grammar, whosoever will does not mean everyone is capable.

46:34

There seems to be an effort on the part of anti -Calvinists to equate those things, which they're not equal.

46:42

Whosoever will just means anybody who wants to. It doesn't mean everyone is capable, and I have used this analogy, perhaps you can correct me if you think it's a bad analogy, but I have said this would be similar to me standing in a crowd of Christians, Orthodox Jews, and strict

47:08

Quranic -believing, Hadith -believing Muslims, and saying to this crowd,

47:16

I may have a bullhorn or a microphone and shout out, anybody who wants to come to my house for a pig roast, you are more than welcome to come.

47:26

Who's going to come? There are going to be many people in that crowd who will not come.

47:31

They'll be horrified by my invitation. And even amongst

47:36

Christians, you might have vegetarians or something who have no interest in it. But the obedient Orthodox Jew and Muslim are not going to come.

47:46

So isn't that somewhat similar to how this sentence is even structured?

47:52

Yeah, I like that analogy. That's really good. And I think what's going on here is there's an unidentified presupposition.

47:58

What is that? They're assuming that because the Lord commands something, that that implies that you, according to your libertarian freedom, have the ability to carry it out.

48:08

And if God commands something that you yourself can't carry out according to your libertarian freedom, which just means according to the finality of your will, then

48:18

God is unfair. And interestingly, that was the presupposition that Charles Finney smuggled into his theology classes that led him down the path of heresy.

48:27

He was saying, God, it's unfair for God to impute Adam's sin to everyone.

48:33

There, you can't, Finney argued, it's not fair to say that I'm a sinner because of the work of Adam all those many years ago.

48:41

And so he denied what Protestants call the doctrine of original sin. But the problem with that is then, according to the logic of Paul in Romans 5, 12 through 21, if you deny the imputation of the first Adam, you deny the imputation of the second

48:55

Adam. So if we're going to reject the doctrine of original sin, you then have to, by theological deduction, deny the imputation of Christ's righteousness, which

49:04

Finney did not by deduction, but explicitly. And of course, those are the two doctrines that led him down the path of heresy.

49:11

So I think it's really dangerous when we start down that argument because there's a presupposition there.

49:17

We're making an accusation against God. And before we make that accusation against God, we better be really careful that we're right about it.

49:26

Yes, it's utterly amazing, astonishing that so many fundamentalist

49:31

Baptists who despise Roman Catholicism and rightfully and accurately expose it and categorize it as a false religion, how they could be so enamored and in love with Charles Finney.

49:50

Because Charles Finney was even more Pelagian than the Roman Catholic churches and devoid of grace as a necessity and a requirement to salvation.

50:02

I mean, it's amazing how many fans Finney has amongst fundamentalists. And I think that is just another human tradition that, of course, fundamentalists will swear they do not stake their faith on human traditions.

50:16

And most of us are blind to some things that are tradition that we follow, which are not biblical, including the altar call that we're discussing.

50:26

But fundamentalists have got to start reading what Charles Finney actually believed before they continue to perpetuate that he is a hero of the faith.

50:36

Yeah, and I like that actual comparison to Finney and the Roman Catholic view of the human will. There's some similarities there.

50:42

And what's fascinating about that presupposition that they're smuggling in is, okay, we're going to accuse God of unfairness based on the primacy of the human will.

50:49

Well, where does that presupposition come from? Well, it comes from the Enlightenment. It comes from Immanuel Kant and Jean -Jacques

50:55

Rousseau, who are enemies of the faith. Jean -Jacques Rousseau said, to renounce freedom is to renounce humanity.

51:01

What's he doing there? He's arguing for the basic definition of a human being is libertarian freedom.

51:07

Immanuel Kant, doing much the same thing, was arguing for the idea that any authority outside of yourself is illegitimate.

51:15

The only authority that can direct your path is that which comes from within. And so libertarian freedom is not a byproduct of the

51:25

Bible. It's a byproduct of Kant and Rousseau. Yes, and I don't know if you would agree with this statement, but my friend

51:32

Jerry Johnson, the renowned documentarian who is most largely responsible for the excellent

51:42

DVD series Amazing Grace, The History and Theology of Calvinism, he identified

51:48

Finney, interestingly, as a monergist, not a synergist, but he meant the bad kind of monergist.

51:57

Uh, where the grace of God was not involved at all in the person coming to regeneration.

52:06

I like that. And that is combative. And I like that style. And so here's this.

52:11

Finney would use this story to explain his view. It's the famous Niagara River story that he would use to explain his view on the matter.

52:19

So here's the basic. In fact, can you bring up the Niagara story when we come back from our midway break? Yes, absolutely.

52:24

By the way, anonymous listeners, I believe there were two of them. You have both received, or I should say you will both receive a free copy of The Culture of Conversionism and the

52:38

History of the Altar Call by our guest Jason Cherry. You'll need to provide for us your full names and mailing addresses.

52:46

Obviously, that will not be disclosed over the air. And, uh, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com

52:53

will ship those books out to you. If you are first -time questioners, you will also receive a brand new

52:59

New American Standard Bible. Please be patient with us. The middle break is longer than the normal breaks. But we will be back after this midway break with more of Jason Cherry and a continuation of our discussion on the

53:12

History of the Altar Call. Please do not go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

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I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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01:12:37

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01:12:44

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01:12:50

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01:13:06

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01:13:20

And Jason, we have a question from Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who asks,

01:13:28

Is there anything innately wrong with an altar call or an anxious bench if you do not promise people who come forward and recite a prayer that they are saved, which is most commonly done when these things are practiced?

01:13:49

I think you're right to identify that that is one of the biggest problems, is when you tell people directly or even imply that just by coming forward, praying this prayer or signing this decision card, that you are now irrevocably a

01:14:04

Christian. I think that is a big, big concern. And so certainly there is a way to pull off an altar call that's better than at other times.

01:14:14

And certainly if the gospel has been preached faithfully and it's an evangelistic message to an audience in which you're anticipating or hoping for conversions, it is probably good to bring the gospel to bear on those people.

01:14:30

That being said, I don't know that it should still be a regular practice of the church because I think you're implying certain things with the practice that could be misleading even if you don't intend to imply these things.

01:14:45

So for example, Billy Graham used to famously call people to come forward at the end of his big meetings.

01:14:54

But what happens often, and this is very unintentional, especially with someone like Billy Graham, who is a very faithful man, was that it conflates the practice of walking forward down this aisle with coming to Jesus.

01:15:10

So the question is, what are you coming to? Conversion, the definition of conversion theologically is faith and repentance.

01:15:18

And there's nothing inherent in walking down the aisle that is saving faith or repentance.

01:15:26

And so I'm just afraid there might be certain things that are being implied there. And more than that, there is a certain cultural meaning to this in terms of our theology, in terms of our practices that I don't know are entirely helpful.

01:15:42

And that's why I speak of the culture of conversionism, because you might think the altar call is just an individual thing.

01:15:49

It's just this method. It's just this one thing we do. But in reality, it is a shaping influence on American evangelicalism that really reduces the

01:16:00

Christian life in a very superficial way down to merely this conversion moment.

01:16:06

And so when you're doing this, you're wrapping yourself up in that culture and some of the more harmful implications of it.

01:16:15

Well, let me just add an extra bit of criticism to the late Billy Graham's altar calls.

01:16:23

And I don't know how much of this decision was made by him personally or by the

01:16:30

Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, but he obviously permitted it either way.

01:16:36

I know firsthand from people, pastors and so on, who were heavily involved in the

01:16:43

Crusades and had people volunteer as counselors who would wait in the front of the auditorium near the platform for people to come forward.

01:16:58

They were instructed that they could not refer that person, even if the person asked, they could not refer them to a

01:17:08

Bible -believing church, even if it was right next to the auditorium where the event was being held. They could not dissuade anyone from returning to the

01:17:16

Roman Catholic Church or a liberal Protestant church or a Jewish synagogue or a mosque.

01:17:24

So there was even more trouble at hand in those invitations, where people were, as a dog returning to its own vomit, being sent back to the very place where they were instructed a false gospel or no gospel at all.

01:17:41

So that's just an added highlight of the errors of the Billy Graham system of altar call.

01:17:50

And by the way, Arnie, you have also won a free copy of The Culture of Conversionism and the

01:17:58

History of the Altar Call by my guest, Jason Cherry. We have a very faithful listener to the

01:18:05

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience, who's also a faithful financial supporter of this program,

01:18:10

Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina. Greetings, brothers. As a preteen,

01:18:17

I went forward at a revival meeting because the pastor preached on hell and I knew

01:18:22

I didn't want to go there. I knew Christ died in my place, but had no understanding of the implications of that.

01:18:30

I was assured of my salvation and did not realize I should have a transformed life.

01:18:35

From that point forward, I lived a very sinful life. And until I was transformed by the

01:18:41

Holy Spirit, emphasis on Grady, in my mid -30s, lived for Satan.

01:18:49

When asked by others, I always claimed to be a Christian. It makes me mad and I grieve over those

01:18:55

I meet that are deceived by the altar call. I believe this is one of Satan's most effective weapons.

01:19:03

Do you agree? That pattern has actually happened quite a bit, and this goes back certainly to Charles Finney, when people like J .W.

01:19:14

Nevin, who were criticizing Finney, were pointing out the high fallaway rate that followed a pattern very similar to what you just described, where people were assured they were a

01:19:23

Christian, and instead of being discipled, Christianity was defined as merely this little moment, this conversion moment and nothing else, and so then they went on and lived as they wanted to.

01:19:35

And so the high fallaway rate for Charles Finney especially came back to haunt him. He even acknowledged it, not often, but he did acknowledge it, and it is in the historical record where he acknowledged the high fallaway rate that is directly tied to this method.

01:19:51

And what's interesting is in the mid -19th century of Charles Hodge, who was very much in opposition to Charles Finney also, who was basically pointing out that when someone comes to faith kind of in a slower, gradual way, that is when conversion is nurtured in a gradual way instead of this kind of crisis conversion thing, that those people's faith tends to last.

01:20:15

In contrast to what you see in the Finney revivals where the high fallaway rate was high. Also, though, that's documented in the

01:20:21

Billy Sunday revivals of the early 20th century, and even in the Billy Graham crusades, this high fallaway rate.

01:20:28

So it is baked into the cake, and the reason is because, as J .C. Ryle criticized heavily, when you have a very superficial entry into Christianity, why are we surprised when you have a very superficial

01:20:41

Christian experience thereafter? Yeah, I also recommend a book by someone who was actually saved through God's using a

01:20:55

Billy Graham altar call when Billy Graham was traveling through the UK. The late

01:21:02

Errol Hulls, who was a Reformed Baptist church in Leeds, England, who

01:21:08

I had the privilege of hearing preach in person at the church where I was formerly a member on Long Island, New York.

01:21:13

He has written a valuable book called Billy Graham, The Pastor's Dilemma, and also

01:21:21

Ian Murray has written some valuable works in addition to what we already mentioned, revival and revivalism.

01:21:29

He has written a book titled The Invasation System, and he has also written another book,

01:21:42

Evangelicalism Divided, that is very helpful. But that proves that just because—you can't use as an argument to give a biblical seal of approval on something because it, on an earthly term, worked.

01:22:03

You can't say, well, I know that altar calls are legitimate and should be practiced because I was saved at an altar call because there are people that I know who were saved because Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses visited them at their door and got them to start reading the

01:22:26

Bible. Eventually, they came to faith through what the Bible declared about Christ and his gospel, and in spite of the heresies of both

01:22:36

Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses, they came to understand the truth of the matter through the scriptures.

01:22:41

But just because that happened through the vehicle of heretics like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses doesn't put a seal of approval on those two cults.

01:22:49

Am I making sense? Yes, and that's an excellent point to make about a lot of things, including the altar call.

01:22:55

And it's certainly a common experience for an American Christian to have been saved through an altar call, and their faith lasted, their faith has persevered, and they're very faithful to this day.

01:23:05

And so, yeah, that is a common thing I've heard since I've written this book is someone that will come and say, well, you know,

01:23:11

I was saved at an altar call, so it can't be all bad. And I think there's several responses to that.

01:23:16

One is that, you know, God is a really good God, but God does not wait on his people to be theologically perfect or methodologically perfect for him to act.

01:23:27

He's going to save a people for himself. And so sometimes God saves people not because of the methods, but in spite of them.

01:23:34

And I think you see Paul acknowledging this clearly in Philippians chapter one when he's talking about how some preach

01:23:40

Christ from envy and rivalry, others do it out of love. But as long as they're proclaiming Christ, praise be to God.

01:23:46

And I think we can say that about the altar call. If someone was saved through the altar call, praise the Lord, but that doesn't validate the message.

01:23:53

It validates the goodness of God to save us in a flawed method.

01:23:58

I think another response to that is that you can praise God for someone's salvation while also being critical of the method.

01:24:08

You can do both of those two things at the same time. And then also, thirdly, if you want to do a results based judgment of the altar call, the altar call will fail every time.

01:24:18

If you want to play the game of, well, let's look at these results and it must be good because there's results. Well, if you look at the total results of the altar call, that reveals, as we just mentioned, a very high backslide rate and a very superficial and subjective

01:24:33

Christian life for those who don't backslide. In fact, Billy Graham admitted that. He didn't even hesitate to admit that most people, according to the records and follow up of any kind of the

01:24:45

Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, that most people did not wind up in a good church.

01:24:51

They didn't continue according to their profession and so on.

01:24:57

So he actually admitted that it was a small percentage of people that he believed were truly legitimately converted to Christ as a result of these efforts.

01:25:10

And then you have those, even a pastor who

01:25:15

I spoke with, on the way to a Billy Graham crusade on Long Island at the

01:25:22

Nassau Coliseum, I guess it was probably the 90s, the 1990s that that occurred.

01:25:28

It may have been the late 1980s. But my sister Mary, who's a Roman Catholic, said that she wanted to go to the

01:25:35

Billy Graham crusade. In fact, her Roman Catholic parish was urging people to go. So she asked if I would attend with her and I told her,

01:25:45

I will go with you just so I can explain to you certain errors that I think are occurring.

01:25:53

And I'll let you know up front that my own church at the time, it was Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, Long Island, which later became

01:26:01

Grace Reformed Baptist Church of Merrick, Long Island after a merger. But I accompanied her and the pastor who was actually a part of the crusade, who was taking people by bus there,

01:26:14

I asked him about that. I said, what do you do with the fact that people are being turned back to their own false religions after the altar call?

01:26:25

And that even Billy Graham admits that a small percentage of people truly came to Christ and continued on with their faith.

01:26:33

How do you justify being actually a participant in this? And his justification was, well, if even a few people get saved, it's all worth it.

01:26:43

Now, is that kind of mentality and strategy and methodology a biblical argument? Well, I guess if we're going to throw that argument out there, we'd have to then also talk about what kind of damage has been done.

01:26:58

If you're going to play that game, you've got to look at both sides. And I think you could run that equation. And as you're pointing out with the

01:27:05

Billy Graham crusades, one of the things that he was doing that raised a lot. In fact, this was the cause of his break with Bob Jones.

01:27:11

When Billy Graham went to New York City, he said, I will work with anyone who's willing to work with me.

01:27:17

And that included Roman Catholics, that included the mainline liberal denominations. And according to some, even though this is harder to document in the historical record, that even includes some

01:27:26

Jewish synagogues. And Bob Jones, of course, thought this was a step too far for a lot of the reasons you're pointing out right now.

01:27:33

But Billy Graham did this. And this also is impactful for us today, because Billy Graham is kind of the vanguard of that kind of neo -evangelicalism that starts to flirt with more of an idea of tolerance.

01:27:47

And it's a little squishy on various theological things. And so I think you have to look at that bigger picture and say, well, what kind of harm is being done before you can say, well, a couple of people got saved, so it was all worth it.

01:27:59

And I urge everybody listening who may have their doubts about what we're saying about Billy Graham, go to YouTube and type in the search engine,

01:28:10

Billy Graham on the Robert Shuler program, or just Billy Graham and Robert Shuler.

01:28:16

You will see an interview that Robert Shuler is conducting with Billy Graham, and I even saw it or viewed it recently, so it must be still there, where Billy Graham believed that people could come to Christ and be saved without knowing

01:28:37

Christ, without believing in Christ. In other words, it is called inclusivism, the heresy that I'm speaking of, where people could be

01:28:48

Muslims, they could be Jews who are members of an

01:28:54

Orthodox or even liberal Jewish synagogue, they could even be, as Billy Graham phrased it, and those from the non -believing world.

01:29:04

They can, in reality, come to Christ because he did believe Christ was the only hope of salvation.

01:29:10

But to come to Christ and be saved did not have to be something that you were conscious of.

01:29:16

So if you were living according to the light that you have been giving, if you were basically demonstrating that you were searching for truth and doing good to your fellow man and all that, that could be a sign that you are truly saved by Christ.

01:29:35

Now, that's absolute heresy, isn't it? Yes, it is.

01:29:41

Salvation is through Christ alone. There's no other name under heaven through which one can be saved.

01:29:48

Now, you have to be conscious of that, because Billy Graham would agree with the statement that you just made. But he would add to it, but you don't have to be conscious of it.

01:29:57

Right. Yes, and yes, it's faith in Christ, consciously so. It's not just through the power of Christ that I'm unaware of that I'm being saved.

01:30:06

It's through my faith in Christ, through my turning from idols to Christ, my turning from sin to Christ by which

01:30:14

I am saved. And I think that's the problem, is when you're making that kind of inclusivist argument that you've seen pop up in the church from time to time.

01:30:26

Well, part of salvation, part of conversion is turning from idols.

01:30:31

You see this clearly in 1 Thessalonians 1. So, how can you be saved if you're not turning from those things and turning to the true and living

01:30:40

God? Right. And in fact, oddly enough, there are some hyper -Calvinists who agree with Billy Graham's statement about those from the non -Christian world being saved without being conscious of it, among, for instance, the primitive

01:31:03

Baptists. I don't want to slander the entire group, because they are diverse.

01:31:09

They're not a monolith. But there are many primitive Baptists who believe they are so hyper -Calvinistic in their separation of evangelism and anything a human does from God's sovereign election.

01:31:27

They so unbiblically separate that and twist that to an extreme that they believe that the only reason a person could love any god, even if it's a false god like the god of the

01:31:40

Muslims, that's because God loved them first and they are of the elect, even though they don't know Christ. And that, ironically, is coming from a hyper -Calvinist background.

01:31:50

Of course, not all hyper -Calvinists believe that, but that's just one version of it that exists amongst some primitive

01:31:58

Baptists. We have another anonymous listener who says,

01:32:08

What should you tell someone who says a sinner's prayer of sorts and says,

01:32:16

I truly believe these words? Very often we hear, added to an altar call after the recitation of a prayer, the preacher, evangelist, or pastor says, if you believed these words with all your heart, you are truly and definitely saved.

01:32:35

That's an interesting question because that makes it possibly somewhat more palatable than just a carte blanche declaration that somebody saved just because they recited a prayer verbally.

01:32:48

But what immediately comes to my mind, I don't know if you want to add anything further,

01:32:55

Jason, but Jeremiah 17, 9 -10, the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

01:33:03

Who can know it? So we have to be careful about trusting our own hearts too, don't we?

01:33:11

Yeah, that statement could be a little tricky. What does if mean there?

01:33:17

If you really believed it. Well, sure, true saving faith will reveal itself by one who perseveres to the end.

01:33:23

I think whatever is meant by whoever says it, what people hear when that's said to them, it's okay. They walk forward at the end of the service altar call.

01:33:30

They sign the decision card. They pray the prayer. They're told, all right, you are now irrevocably a Christian. The problem is, of course, they may not be.

01:33:38

You can't just say definitively someone's a Christian in such a brief amount of time.

01:33:44

You're known by your fruit and that takes some time to develop and will that fruit persevere to the end as we were discussing earlier.

01:33:51

And so what happens there too is you create, this is all part of the culture of conversionism, is because a lot of people go through those things.

01:33:59

They're caught up in the emotion. They come forward. They think they're really genuine in the moment, but like in the parable of the sower, they wither away over time.

01:34:07

But they remember that. They remember those words. And I think what happens is people actually get hardened to the gospel because of it, because they're told these things that they know from within their own soul aren't true.

01:34:19

And that then hardens them to the gospel that they had walked forward to respond to initially.

01:34:26

So I think that's part of the broader problem there. But that then creates a new problem in the culture of conversionism, and that is the whole category of rededication.

01:34:35

So then what do you have when you have someone who walks down the aisle, says the prayer, but then falls away for 20 years?

01:34:41

Then maybe they have a family or something. They decide to go back to church. Well, they rededicate their lives.

01:34:48

And that is a category that's not really in Scripture. It could be if you define it properly, and I'll explain that in a minute.

01:34:54

The prodigal son. Yeah, that's the closest idea there.

01:35:01

But even there, I think David Garland, the commentator, points out on that passage that when the prodigal son returns and you have the moment where he would be saving faith, that is the initial life given to him.

01:35:16

We have no indication that he was truly faithful before he demanded his inheritance. Yeah.

01:35:22

And so you have this category of rededication now to basically cover the problem of the altar call culture.

01:35:30

So it's like one little white lie at the beginning creates a bigger lie later on, namely with this category of rededication.

01:35:38

And really, what is rededication if you think about it? Well, if you've got a healthy Christian progression, you're going to have people that sin.

01:35:44

Sometimes that sin's going to be brief. Sometimes that sin's going to be more prolonged. But eventually, if they're the children of the

01:35:50

Lord, they're going to be called to conviction. And what are they going to do? They're going to confess and repent of their sin.

01:35:56

And that's all pretty ordinary in the Christian life. We're confessing and repenting regularly. And so rededication is more of an unbiblical way to talk about what should be a really regular habit within the

01:36:08

Christian life. And we are going to our final break. By the way, the other anonymous listeners who sent in questions, and also

01:36:18

Grady of Asheboro, North Carolina, you have all won a free copy of the book that we have been addressing,

01:36:25

The Culture of Conversionism in the History of the Altar Call by Jason Cherry. All of you, please make sure that you provide your mailing addresses so that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

01:36:37

can ship out this book to you. And if you're a first -time questioner, according to the anonymous listeners, please make sure you tell us that because you'll also receive a free

01:36:48

New American Standard Bible. Please, if you'd like to have your questions asked and answered before we go off the air today, send in your question immediately to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:37:02

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

01:37:12

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

01:37:20

We'll be right back with Jason Cherry. Please do not go away. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

01:37:40

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio and thanks for listening. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the

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Disregard the website you heard in that commercial. The new website is gcbc -nj .org,

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gcbc -nj .org. We're now back with Jason Cherry and the last portion of our interview on the culture of conversionism and the history of the altar call.

01:54:07

I think one important factor we have to introduce into this program, for the sake of our listeners who strongly believe in the altar call, they love the practice of the altar call, they wrongly assume that we who do not practice this in our worship services are somehow liberal because they know that your average mainline liberal church, apostate church, they don't practice the altar call, but it's for an entirely different reason.

01:54:40

These churches, many of them don't even believe in the concept of sin itself that we should be fleeing from and turning to Christ over, unless, of course, the sin is being a conservative evangelical and taking the

01:54:58

Word of God for what it says as the God -breathed, inerrant truths of Scripture. They may think that's a sin, but they have no heart to see lost people come to Christ because they typically have an idea that people should just be living according to their own desires and be happy.

01:55:17

But we have to make sure that there are different reasons why the altar call are rejected by different groups and that we are not in the same camp.

01:55:26

Isn't that something very wise for us to do? Yeah, I think there's a lot of qualifications you have to make, and another accusation is often, well, then you're against evangelism, and that's much the point you're making.

01:55:39

No, we're not against evangelism at all. We want to proclaim the glorious grace of God. It's a question of what's the most prudent method of nurturing congregants to that faith once they've heard the gospel preached.

01:55:52

And many of these folks that I have spoken with have a wrong idea that an altar call is actually necessary for salvation.

01:56:03

I have had people approach me who have said, if they had visited my church, man, your pastor preached an excellent message, but he blew it.

01:56:13

He didn't do the altar call, which would have signed and sealed the deal so that the person who heard that excellent message would have come forward and gotten saved.

01:56:24

This is a dangerous way of thinking, isn't it? Yeah, and I've heard that same thing, too.

01:56:29

If you don't have an altar call, then how can you have people be saved? And, of course, what you see in Scripture, though, is a lot of people respond to the gospel message and believe without an altar call.

01:56:41

So you hear the gospel preached, you see faith born, you see repentance happening, all without an altar call.

01:56:48

Now, I have heard people who have ceased the altar call practice, but have said, well, in our church, we now have an inquiry room where if anybody wants to see the pastor after the service, they can sit down with him and talk about their need of Christ.

01:57:06

Now, I think that that is a less harmful thing unless these promises that are made at many altar calls are made in the privacy of the inquiry room.

01:57:15

But even Charles Spurgeon, interestingly enough, ceased the practice of the inquiry room because he said much mischief was wrought there.

01:57:27

What is your opinion about that? And the inquiry room was—D .L. Moody really brought that heavily in.

01:57:33

Some people say Moody didn't even practice the altar call, which I think is not the right way to frame it. What Moody did was when he called people to repentance in that altar call moment is he then separated them into that inquiry room, which is when it became really popular in the

01:57:48

United States. And so it's kind of a modified version of the altar call. And, yeah, I do think it's less harmful because you're actually in a private moment.

01:57:55

But I think one of the criticisms that you see from folks like J .C. Ryle and Morton Lloyd -Jones is that part of the problem is when you're in that emotional moment of an evangelistic sermon and you're kind of writing that emotion to get the person in the pew to seal the deal through this formula.

01:58:13

That's the thing that's breeding these either false conversions or very superficial entry into the

01:58:19

Christian life. And so separating them out to the inquiry room doesn't really solve that bigger problem.

01:58:25

And, of course, we have to be very careful not to adopt this as a third ordinance or sacrament.

01:58:31

But, interestingly enough, I'm looking at—I love the cover of your book because that looks—the architecture of the church in that photograph looks like it would be impossible to have an altar call the same as Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, where Charles Spurgeon was the pastor.

01:58:49

It was specifically built in such a way where you could not have an altar call. It was that—do you know if that photograph was by design?

01:58:57

Well, so that's Billy Sunday preaching to an audience of all men there.

01:59:02

So I do imagine, knowing Billy Sunday, that at the end of that particular service he had an altar call. I don't know how they could have come forward in there.

01:59:10

Yeah, I don't know how he called people forward. He probably had to do something a little different. But that picture—I love that picture right there.

01:59:18

I think it captures the mass evangelism movement that comes about in the 20th century really well.

01:59:23

And, of course, Billy Sunday's right at the center of so much of it. Well, we're out of time, and I look forward to having you back, Jason.

01:59:28

And the website for Trinity Reformed Church in Huntsville, Alabama is trinityreformedkirk .com.

01:59:36

Thank you so much, Jason. I want to thank everybody who listened, and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater