December 14, 2016 Show with Doug Van Dorn on “Covenant Theology: A Reformed Baptist Primer”

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Good afternoon.

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday

on this 14th day of December 2016 and before I introduce my guest

and topic today.

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We hope that many of you travel from wherever you are to Attend these events,

but today we have as our guest again on iron sharpens iron Doug Van Dorn, he is

pastor of Reformed Baptist Church of Northern, Colorado.

And our theme today is going to be another one of his books Covenant theology a reformed

Baptist primer.

This is a very controversial subject not only among Christians in general crossing denominational

lines, but even Amongst Calvinists and even among Reformed Baptists, but it's my

honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron Doug Van Dorn.

Yeah, you're talking about the debate yeah, well, I hope you can I would love to see you both of them if you come out.

And.

Well Doug as we typically do tell us something about Not only

your personal salvation about the religious of your youth and

The providential occurrences that the Lord brought about in your life to draw you to himself but

then also what led you to the pastorate of Reformed Baptist Church of Northern, Colorado

and.

And you can at that point explain something about that, but if you could tell our listeners something about your own background.

Sure.

I grew up in church.

I knew of course age and I've

really not college at the time.

Yes, you are on the

air.

I'm not sure why you thought you weren't.

Well, you are talking so.

And.

By the way.

I wouldn't when I'm finding it it really enhances the audio when I am NOT

speaking to put my own microphone on mute.

I'm good and

Evangelical circles went to an evangelical Christian liberal art college and

thing kind of a

so tiered Calvinist.

He was got me interested in thinking about.

College dorms will definitely give you an education on total depravity.

Lifelong friends that and most of them are

Christian

in reformed theology at all and Dumbled across some reformed guys on

this program called the white horse end.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, I've had all

of those guys from the white horse in on my program with the exception of Rob Rosenblatt.

I haven't had him on.

But I've had Mike Horton on a number of times I've had Ken Jones on a number of times and I've had Kim

riddle Barger on a number.

Of times they're all there and I don't even know where to begin.

But the

end of that

time

movement that

there even really was one like sent us

off and

I ended up.

2002

and tell us something specifically about the Reform Baptist Church of Northern, Colorado.

Yeah, it was just a church

plant renting

anything yet.

Confessional church.

We just joined a brand new Confessional association called the Reform Baptist Network.

Last month.

Yeah, my former pastor on Long Island Mark Romaldi and also Doug Totter who's

also one of the pastors there.

They I believe joined in thing.

And I

believe they joined that network didn't they they did.

Yep.

Okay, great.

And.

Let me give our email address right now.

For anybody wanting to join us on the air with a question for Doug Van Doren on covenant theology or a Reform Baptist

primer our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if it is about a personal or private matter.

Perhaps you are disagreeing with your own pastor on something and you don't want to identify yourself.

We will grant that request and.

But we would appreciate it if you give us at least your first name city and state and country so

we can get an idea of where our listeners are our Listen where our listeners are

listening right now and.

And so going back just briefly to your own testimony, I'm assuming then you're you are the

first Theologically Reformed Christian that you know of in your family.

By the way, I love that.

I would love that to see that phrase on a church sign kind of fundamentalist, but not really.

The Jerry Falwell Memorial Chapel.

I.

Grew up.

Okay, and How did your parents react to you becoming theologically reformed?

Oh, if you know anything about my family, we

enjoyed

very believe it or not.

Oh, wow.

Well, praise God for that.

Well, you should.

Since they seem to love debate.

You should drag them all out here to Pennsylvania to the debate that I'm having.

Well.

Covenant theology is an interesting Concept because of

the fact that you have a Baptist saying that no Baptist

can believe in covenant theology and you also have Presbyterians Who are

covenant theologians who would agree with that?

They would say no Baptist is really a covenant theologian.

And of course you have Baptists who are reformed saying that they accurately

understand What consistent Covenant

theology really is from the scriptures.

And then of course there are divisions even among those Subcategories and

you have those who would embrace what is now called New Covenant theology

those Calvinist Baptist brothers of ours Who would say that the Decalogue was

meant only for the nation of Israel?

But that nine of the Ten Commandments are Perpetual in the church because of the fact that

Christ reiterated them in the New Testament.

And there are other obvious differences that I don't have the time to go into because you're going to do as much

as that as possible but if you could give us a basic

background and definition of your understanding of covenant theology.

Definition.

It's not a laity as

much been

in

theology

then would be an extension

of that

the time.

And he's done that through our

Naveen on down covenant in Jesus Christ

and.

Obviously.

From what I said in earlier in the description of our topic today You have a

reformed Baptist primer related to covenant theology because there are

Presbyterian brethren of ours who believe that their interpretation of or

description or definition of covenant theology Would have some differences.

Obviously because they baptize infants they believe that that

circumcision has been replaced by Baptism and therefore it

would include infants and so on.

But if you could tell us your understanding of what makes reformed Baptist covenant

theology unique amongst other.

Covenant theologians a several different answers

on it depending on who you would talk to.

I think one of the things I would say

a logical theologian long ago

the unity of the covenant.

Presbyterians usually talk Baptist do too.

This is more the newer

stuff of thinking about

this from.

Extends from the Garden of Eden.

Really the

beginning.

Because he had to

build

an ark and

if he

wouldn't have done

that then there wouldn't have been any salvation.

I

got

dispensationalism that

and I would argue

they've even

always

now years ago.

I interviewed Jeffrey D.

Johnson, do you know brother Johnson?

Yeah, and he wrote the fatal flaw and the full title.

Is.

Something I can't remember the exact full title, but the subtitle has to do with the refutation of infant

baptism, right?

And He took the position as best I can remember

that The he agreed with you that the the Covenant of Grace is the

new covenant and that the old covenant is a covenant of works not because works ever

saved anyone.

Not that the works of men ever saved anyone, but that that covenant wasn't

about salvation.

It was about temporal and earthly promises.

Whereas the new covenant is a permanent covenant that involves eternity.

Do you and I hope that I am somewhat accurate or extremely accurate in the way?

I've remembered pastor Jeff Johnson's Summary of those two covenants.

Do you agree with that or would you have any other?

Additions to that definition or changes from that.

Yeah, I think I would and I'm sure he would too.

I.

Would say that old

covenants grace

of God looking into the future.

We do according to the predestined plan looking

into the future.

That's kind of what

Romans 3 Type.

Yeah, the the

subtitle I

just found it was the fatal flaw

of the theology behind.

Infant baptism and Covenantal dichotomous, um.

And we do already have a couple of listeners here.

We have let's see getting to my my inbox here and

We have Pastor Ron in Wading

River, Long Island, New York.

Let's see here.

He says no dispensationalist ever says that anyone is or was saved by

works and He also says Isn't it true?

That covenant theology is basically a theological system based largely on the Presbyterian

Westminster Confession of Faith originating in the early 17th century.

What is the biblical? justification for the covenants as defined by covenant theology.

The covenants are not identified as such in Scripture as.

Are the covenants recognized by other systems?

No modern distance a to

change that and even if you go back and read the Schofield study notes You'll see him disagreeing with

himself on that.

So I mean, but you can also see if you're if you're reading

said that people were said

a longer part of them.

Can you kind of summarize it for me again there Chris?

Yeah, he is saying what is the biblical?

Justification for the covenants as defined by covenant theology.

The covenants are not identified as such in Scripture as are the covenants recognized by

other systems.

Don't what he's asking.

Okay, and in

fact that lends itself to his

second question.

What is the motivation for Baptists adopting a Presbyterian system of belief?

Theology

the beginning is that I've come to see the Bible is a

kind of what

I call it a

watershed.

When you're in Colorado and you're walking on a High peak so

they have

one all the water that will

the lands on your right foot will end up in the Pacific Ocean even though you're right

there between how we understand

cotton and.

It's a unity.

It's you know, it's a it's a and I see the

covenant to the unity of that in a way I suppose it's

more similar to the Presbyterians than it would be the dispensation list.

Well, there are some Presbyterians who use the phrase that there is one covenant under two Administrations.

Do you agree with that concept?

Well.

So now we kind of need to broaden out a little bit.

I've been

in that existed in eternity past and they'll

label that usually something like the covenant of redemption and the idea is

that one another they define their

relationship

and then

you know up of

Jesus the Lamb slain before the and so.

Where I

look

at

it is

that

as

humans by

our

question

that there is

one covenant New

Testament.

Well, we are going to a break right now and by the way pastor Ron in Wading River.

You ever received or I should say you have won a free copy of this book.

We are discussing Covenant theology a reformed Baptist primer by our guest Doug van Dorn

and if you give us your full mailing address We'll have that shipped out to you by covenant.

I'm sorry by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service Cvbbs .com.

CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service comm.

And.

The book is being given to you compliments of waters of creation publishing

of the Publishing ministry of the Reformed Baptist Church of Northern, Colorado.

So we thank both Doug van Dorn and Cvbbs .com for

shipping out your free book to you and We are going to be going to a break right now if anybody else and we

do have quite a number of people already waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

If anybody would like to join them our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away we're gonna be right back after these messages with Doug van Dorn and more of our

discussion on Covenant theology a reformed Baptist primer.

I'm Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio.

And here's one of my favorite guests Todd Friel to tell you about a conference.

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Hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched a TV and

Occasional guest on Chris's show.

I think I think that's what it's called.

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta.

My new hometown.

It is going to be a bang -up conference called the g3 conference

celebrating the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer

Steve Lawson da Carson Voddie back from Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there.

Learn more at g3 conference .com g3 conference dot.

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Time to pastor Bill Shishko of a visit to the pastor's study.

And if you just tuned in our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is pastor

Doug Van Dorn.

Who is the pastor of the Reformed Baptist Church of Northern Colorado?

We are discussing his book Which is covenant theology a reformed

Baptist primer.

And if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And I'll tell you Doug we have really got a Huge lineup of people already

waiting to have their questions asked and Well, I'm gonna

ask one more from pastor Ron for now and if we could squeeze any more of his questions later I'll I'll

squeeze them in but he wants to know why Covenant theologians are on millennialists,

and I don't think that they are all on Millennials, but what's your comment on that?

But

obviously a

covenant theologians would never be pre

-tribulational.

No, no.

Yeah, so you would be

talking about yeah, and

I know I know Orthodox Presbyterians and Presbyterians.

In the PCA who are historic pre -millennial.

And even though that would be a minority.

I I know some I know some reformed Baptists who are 1689 London Baptist confession

adherents who are pre -millennial and The the

the confession of faith doesn't really the 1689 nor the Westminster doesn't really

Prohibit those other eschatological views.

Does it?

No, no, that's right.

All right.

We also have Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

What I can't figure out about the arguments of people like our Scott Clark that Baptist by

definition can't be reformed is That it would seem logically that the practice of

believers baptism over and against Pato baptism Places the

Baptist further away from Rome.

Shouldn't that characteristic enter into the calculus of what is

reformed and what isn't?

You're seeing how people different people are defining the word, you

know, we're

friends

and that or something.

They're reformed in some ways in terms of they believe speaking.

You know like you were

talking rod

Rosenblatt

earlier and told

it or probably

think that

Lutherans probably

do to an analogy

and you don't be

reformed and some

of these terms are.

You know are man -made.

Reformed is not a biblical term.

It's a historic term and Many of those who would call

themselves reformed Baptists and perhaps all of those who would call themselves reformed Baptists Would

legitimize using the term reformed because they believe or we believe.

That we took the Reformation to its logical conclusion.

Not that we're not in need in any of any more reforming.

I'm not saying that we've arrived at perfection or something but I'm saying that.

Don't you think that that those who are from the reformed Baptist strain which Used to be called

particular Baptists have really taken the the the the five

solos of the Reformation even to a more logical conclusion, especially when you're talking about

sola scriptura and.

And.

Separating from Rome if you will even further

they're

differing on the issue

of church

government.

They're not differing on that.

And of course there are.

People who agree with us on every jot and tittle but do not Call themselves

Reformed out of choice.

They just don't like that label and some of them don't like the term Calvinist and I have a

number of friends who agree with nearly everything I believe but they Refuse out of

choice.

Not to identify themselves as either reformed or Calvinist.

Yeah, and also for those

of you

listening

who might

wonder

what the

church

down the road.

Called the first reformed Church of such -and -such town or so on believes you're gonna have

a hit and miss there because Because the RCA the Reformed Church in America, which was

the Dutch Reformed Church is largely a liberal Denomination

today and and really has lost most of its Calvinistic

Roots or has abandoned their Calvinistic roots and their moorings and

There are exceptions, please.

I don't want my RCA friends who are Faithful to the Reformed faith and to the Bible to get

upset with me about that but they even know more than anybody that they are surrounded by people that typically disagree with them and

You have even the Christian Reformed Church has become very liberal, which is why The United Reformed Church

of North America was even formed Because you know, so you're gonna have people using that term

that we would disagree with strongly on many issues.

Well Ted in Tuscaloosa Tuscaloosa, I'm sorry Tuscaloosa,

Alabama, please.

Give me your full mailing address because you have also won a free copy of Covenant theology

a reformed Baptist primer by our guest Doug Van Dorn and we have

Osa Nachi, and I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly and please forgive me Osa Nachi

if I am Mispronouncing it and if you could email me to let me know if I am or not and maybe

give me a phonetic Spelling if I am mispronouncing it.

But Osa Nachi in Lagos, Nigeria Says hi Chris.

Thanks for this topic.

Can you please ask Doug the following?

What is the real importance of covenant theology to a believer's walk with the Lord and number

two is Dispensationalism a slight error or is it a heretical error?

Given the trial and error mode of salvation.

It seems to espouse.

It seems to espouse.

Okay, so I'll give you those two questions to start with the first is what is the real importance of covenant theology to a

believer's Walk in the Lord or with the Lord.

Yeah, there's all sorts of Covenant theology from the way that you understand the unity the

Bible to the way that you understand the working of how you.

Something

that's

kind of

man, and

I can't think

of it and Oh

sadachi.

Also wanted to know about Dispensationalism how serious an error Do you think

it is.

I can tell you up front as far as I am concerned that I have

Dear brethren in Christ who are dispensationalist.

Who are also theologically Calvinistic soteriologically Calvinistic.

Who I would prefer going to their congregations and sitting under their leadership then even

some Covenant theology churches that I'm aware of and It

is interesting to me that these issues that separate a

theologically Soteriologically Calvinistic dispensationalist from a reformed

Christian Very often are not at the forefront of what is preached

and taught from the pulpits.

I mean look at John MacArthur for instance once in a blue moon.

He gets a Lot of a lot of reformed people upset when he will

criticize Millennialism and post -millennialism and Covenant theology, but that's

rare.

It seems anyway for the most part.

All of us in those camps are applauding nearly everything that he says.

But anyway,

if you

could comment

on your on your

own

there

reformed

and.

Osanachi's last question is please shed some light on new covenant theology and the

dangers it poses.

He's assuming that you believe that poses dangerous.

So.

I mean dangers and theology.

I would say on that watershed it in my opinion.

It falls on them.

It falls on that.

Well,

thank

you.

Osanachi and you have won a free copy of covenant theology reform Baptist

primer.

We thank you for giving us an American address where you have a Pastor

friend here in the States who is going to get you those books because that saves

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service a ton of money.

That's why we typically do not ship out any books Bibles or other gifts to

overseas listeners.

So we we thank you very much for providing that American address and God willing that will be shipped out to you

within a week or so and Thank you for participating in the program with excellent questions.

And by the way, Osanachi says that he is a member of the only reformed Baptist Church in Nigeria.

Which is a pretty remarkable.

Yeah, I think I think I've never met him personally, but I think I know who he is.

Oh, really?

Wow.

All right.

Let's see here.

We've got so many questions.

I'm trying to pick listeners that we haven't ever heard from before or haven't heard from in a

long time and.

By the way.

While I'm looking I will repeat our email address again.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name.

City and state and country of residence.

We have Chris.

From Runnels or Ronellis, Iowa.

Ronellis, Iowa, and I could be mispronouncing that also.

Can you ask Doug if he would agree with John Owens comments on Hebrews 8?

8 Through.

I'll get to enlarge this.

I am going blind.

I can't even read The emails that are coming in because I don't know why they they're.

Microscopic font sizes.

That might be a lesson for you listening folks if you could Enlarge your email

fonts before you send them to me.

Can you ask Doug if he would agree with John Owens comments on Hebrews 8 verse 6?

Where he says and I am paraphrasing men were saved under the old covenant.

But no one was saved on the basis of the old covenant and that's Chris from Ronellis.

Or Runnels.

Runnels, Iowa.

And thank you very much and you have also received a Free copy of

covenant theology or a foreign Baptist primer by our guest.

So Chris in Runnels, Iowa.

Please give us your full mailing address.

I only have Runnels, Iowa, and we'll have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Ship that out to you as soon as they can and Let's

see here.

We have Joe in Slovenia.

Who says I'm very intrigued to hear that the priestly covenant is vital for a proper

understanding of the continuity of the practice of baptism from Old

Testament to New Testament and the answer to why we never find infants

being baptized in the New Testament and more precise and a more precise way to

parse The legal aspects of the Old Testament economy.

Thereby helping us understand why the moral law continues today.

Please brother Doug.

Unpack as much of these aspects as time will allow.

Well, your book is somewhere floating around in Slovenia.

I must be.

Comes an

argument today.

Yeah, you

brought that

up in there.

Are you on water

baptism the

waters of

creation?

Exactly.

What I'm doing there is I'm saying that Jesus is actually obeying

that's

exactly what 30 years old

about

actually

I think that's the reason why Hebrews starts talking about my kids of

decline and yet

he's doing.

And essentially

what I'm

saying that the

sign

of

the reform

Baptist view is

just

covenant action

sign of the nation,

but not the inter and so.

But even if you don't hold to reform Baptist view kids, what

do you do with Noah?

Wasn't he into the

covenant of grace

on those have

to say yes,

I think that's what the.

And we thank you very much for the excellent question.

And you are also receiving a free a copy of

Covenant theology a reform Baptist primer if you get us your full Mailing address

as soon as possible.

We only have your city in state.

So we hope to actually we only have Slovenia there.

So I'll actually I remember now we were shipping this to your daughter in Georgia.

We appreciate you also Joe giving Us an American address

to make it must Much less expensive for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service to get

that book out to you.

So, thank you for the great question Joe and Slovenia and keep keep sending those excellent questions

over.

We have.

We have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

Who wants to know?

Isn't it interesting how?

The Presbyterian brothers and sisters Say that Infants

are a part of the Covenant even if they are unregenerate and

Unelect or reprobate whereas the book of Hebrews chapter

9 in verse 15 The writer says for this reason

he meaning Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant.

So then since Since a death has taken place for the redemption of transgressions

that were committed under the first covenant those who have been called may receive the promise of

the eternal inheritance so therefore does this not contradict a notion of

Jesus mediating for anyone who is going to hell.

But don't

know you think

that

Hebrews is making it very clear though that.

If Christ is mediating For those in the new covenant that they will inherit an

eternal life.

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's the case but

acting like infants as Clement

of Alexandria this

morning on

something about the

children and

you know, it's

interesting

also that.

The the 39 articles of religion of the Anglican Church that

were drafted by Thomas Thomas Cranmer thoroughly Calvinistic

Anglican in the 16th century.

He.

Worded the area on baptism very Interestingly, he said that we cannot

forbid children from being baptized, but he doesn't use the word infants.

Right, so I

actually told my Calvinistic Anglican friends that I could agree with everything nearly everything in the 39

articles even on baptism.

But.

But CJ you've won our last copy of Covenant theology a reformed Baptist primer.

So please give us your full Address and we will have that shipped out to you

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And.

We are going to our station break right now.

We've got a lot of people still waiting for their questions.

I'm sorry that we don't have any more books for you.

But we appreciate you writing in those questions and we will get to you as soon as we can after this break.

If you would like to join us our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

If you would like to join those already waiting and Hopefully we'll be able to get to you before the hour is over the

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Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

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And we Ask you if you only to remain anonymous if it's about a personal or private

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That you are asking about.

Perhaps you are disagreeing with your pastor on theology or something like that.

We will be right back after these messages with Doug Van Doren.

Chris Arnson here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia.

And here's my friend. Dr. James White.

To tell you why?

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko.

Inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m.

On WLIE radio www

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Welcome back.

We are interviewing today Doug Van Dorn on his book

Covenant theology a reformed Baptist primer.

If you would like to join us on the air.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And this program this topic certainly Has sparked a lot of interest today because we have a lot

of people Who are emailing us and I I wonder if we're gonna be able to have

time to get to them all.

But.

Let's see here.

I want to Get another listener that we haven't heard from before.

Let's see we have.

We have Howard and I'm not sure what city and state Howard is listening in.

But you're gonna have to get me your full address Howard because you are a first -time questioner.

To iron sharpens iron and you're going to win a free New American Standard Bible as a result

Compliments of the publishers of the NASB and it will be shipped out to you by Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

So, please give us your full mailing address.

But.

Howard wants to know have you read truth or territory a biblical approach to

spiritual warfare By Jim Osmond.

It is a book by a dispensational Calvinist I think against pseudo

charismatic practices of spiritual warfare such as rebuking and binding Satan and Praying a

hedge around an individual.

If you have read it or heard it or heard about it What do you think or do you know about any

other reviews of it?

Oh, I'm sorry.

I had you on mute Doug.

Okay, well perhaps we'll investigate that that book a little further and be able to give you a better answer at

some point in the future.

Jim and I'm sorry Howard.

Jim is the author Jim Osmond.

I've never heard of it either.

So Give me your full Mailing address

so that we can get you the oh, I'm we have it right here Jim.

I'm sorry.

Howard in Auburn Hills, Michigan.

Howard in Auburn Hills, Michigan.

Well, thank you very much for Sending that question.

And by the way Howard and he goes by the nickname Hardy Smith is pastor of New

Covenant Church.

In.

Auburn Hills, Michigan and that is a Southern Baptist congregation so thank you

for Submitting a question for the very first time on iron sharpens iron radio Pastor

Smith and we will get out to you that Bible as soon as possible.

Let's see, who else do we have.

We have another pastor pastor Sterling Vander Worker in Greensboro, North

Carolina.

And.

He says I've tried as a New Covenant Christian to find the covenant of works

in Genesis 1 28 through 30 and 2 15.

Seems to me that God's Instructions to Adam and Eve is a law.

What differentiates God's law to Adam and Eve and establishes a covenant?

Is? this a Caesarean Covenant.

People talk about.

The difference is

that in a

feed this

idea in

my

opinion.

There's blood that shed at the breaking

of the

covenant animal and actually take that quite there to be the

angel of the Lord Who entered into covenant with Adam and Eve

just like he in the Old

Testament?

Reculating

around one

another's

a Reese's

Command.

We have Murray in

Kinross,

Scotland.

How would Doug Van Doren's primer on covenant theology differ theologically from

Thomas Mick Thomas McComiskey's book.

Thomas McComiskey's book, which sadly I no longer have the are you familiar with Thomas

McComiskey's book?

I think maybe the name certainly rings a bell.

Thank

you.

No, this is Murray not Mary.

Okay.

Murray does not explain well anything if you hate Murray.

Obviously, I'm thinking that you must be still listening.

Email us another clarifying email about specifically what you mean.

By the question and something.

But perhaps tell us something about Thomas McComiskey's book and I'm sure that I'm pronouncing

that in a very different way than you would.

Um.

Let's see, we have Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan.

Please explain what?

Replacement theology is and how covenant theology is sometimes accused of.

Report Of.

Replacing the Israel of the Old Testament.

I was also taught that Covenant theology will always lead to anti -semitism.

And that's that's really an absurd accusation.

I think a slanderous one.

I'm not saying that Jeff is.

When

you

preach the

people in the old is now saying Israel

as if God no

longer cares of

the hallmarks of dispensationalism

and.

The very first one is

that there's they

all Dispensationalists agree on that.

So nation then is that the church when God doesn't you

know?

He no longer cares about Israel

and

ones

nine.

Not all is

saying

our

father.

A look

at all

of

these

theology

would kind

of

make

unity

that

exists unity.

It's not came in analogies and there's no way it replaces anything because it

is that thing.

Now

it's not

the church is

not ever said

right.

And it's

also interesting to me that.

I don't know how I hadn't.

In fact, I have to ask the next time I Discussed this with either a messianic Jew

or a dispensationalist brother or sister in Christ.

What and especially if they use that term that the pejorative term?

Replacement theologian in regard to those outside of their understanding.

I.

Wonder how they view Romans 11 Where the Gentiles who are

becoming?

Christians are Described by Paul as being a wild olive that

were grafted in.

And if we are being grafted in.

If they are saying that the church is not the fulfillment of Israel Then what are we being grafted

in.

We've been grafted in the nation of Israel.

They wouldn't say that.

Yeah, and also who

is

Peter

talking to

in 1st

Peter

chapter 2.

But you are a chosen race a royal priesthood a holy nation a people for God's own profession.

So that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous

light.

He can't be speaking about the physical ethnic people.

Kenny.

I mean, isn't he speaking to the Christians?

And let's see we have another listener we have David in Ada,

Ohio.

David asks, what does covenant theology hold to as far as the end times position that we already addressed this.

Briefly first Corinthians 15 20 through 16, but now Christ has been raised from the dead the

firstfruits of those who are asleep or since by a man.

Came death by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.

For as an Adam will die.

So also in Christ all will be made alive.

But each of his own order Christ the firstfruits after that those who are Christ at his

coming.

Then comes the end which he hands over the kingdom to the God and father.

When he has abolished all rule in all authority and power.

For he must sign he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

The end comes after the resurrection with no time for a seven -year tribulation or a thousand -year reign.

How does covenant theology explain this.

Yeah,

I was probably a millennial and I would read that as an

omelette.

Of course, the post millennialists would say it definitely.

Would be leaning in their direction.

Well, thank you

David from Ada, Ohio

and keep listening

to our iron

sharpens iron and keep.

Spreading word about our program wherever You may travel and we

really have been blessed with a lot of listeners who are very

enthusiastically asking questions about this topic and let me

repeat our email address so that in the event we can Squeeze some more of you in

before we run out of time.

We will do so.

It's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and please give us your first name city and state and

country of residence if you live outside of the good old USA and

Only remain anonymous if You are asking about something Personal and

private like perhaps you're disagreeing with your pet your own pastor on theology or something like that.

We're gonna be going to our final break right now and if you'd like to join us Once again, our

email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

So don't go away.

We're gonna be right back with Doug.

I'm James White.

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Our time will be lively useful sometimes Controversial but never dull.

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So we hope that you listen every Saturday to pastor Bill Shishko of A visit to the

pastor's study and we are in our final half hour of today's interview.

With Doug Van Dorn, we are discussing his book Covenant Theology a Reformed Baptist

Primer.

And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

I'm going back to the final two questions that pastor Ron of Wading

River, Long Island, New York Asked earlier that I didn't get to to read because we had so many people

sending emails in.

And you already touched on this, but perhaps you could add anything to it that you might not have said.

Is there a future for national Israel in the eschatological plan of God and

What do you say about Paul's statement in Romans 9 verse 4 that the covenants

pertain to Israel?

Again that gets

to the truly curious to me that So

many people are are kind of equating Covenant theology with a

necessarily

answer that question kind of a

natural extension to one it

Millennialism.

Yes.

Yeah,

and.

There are optimistic Amillennialists who believe that either most or

all of those who are ethnically Jewish when Christ returns Will be

become born -again Christians by his grace.

And there are obviously post -millennialists who have varying degrees of viewing that

and I even know of some post -millennial theonomists

Who will say that although they don't believe That the Israel

that we see in the Middle East today is a fulfillment of prophecy.

They will say that God has obviously being Calvinist.

They believe that God sovereignly brought that about and that there may be a reason for

that.

We don't know perhaps.

The.

Localization of many people of that ethnicity in in one region where

there will be massive evangelism going on in the future and You know and masses will come

the saving faith in Christ, but you know, obviously these since these things aren't happen happening yet.

We don't know specifically the details, but.

But there are like you said there are differences of opinion even amongst all millennial and post -millennial people.

And.

You know very few people outside of.

Of.

Dispensationalism within within the Reformed community or within Reformed

Christians among Reformed Christians would actually say That God is no longer doing anything with

ethnic Jews.

I mean that would be that would be some kind of a bigoted biased that they have

imported into their theology and it also would mean that they're.

They're blind to what's going on around them.

There are Jews coming to Christ all the time.

Right

and just to be

fair I

have

heard

from.

Theologically Reformed brethren in the UK Who say there is something really

disturbing going on amongst?

Quote quote covenant Theologian Christians there in regard to

replacement theology where that actually is a term That they use for

themselves for instance in the United States.

I don't know anybody who is a covenant theology Christian who calls themself

a replacement theologian.

I don't know if you do.

I don't I've never met one.

I've never met a Calvinist.

But I but I spoke with a brother in the UK who is laboring there

To evangelize the Jewish people and he says there there are some

Calvinistic groups Among Anglicans and other groups and I'm gonna be very careful not to

broad brush but who are actually using the phrase replacement theology and who mean it in a

way that we would Thoroughly and and completely reject.

So I don't want to act like it doesn't exist this mindset, but it's something that's a lot

rarer than is being Assumed by a lot of people wouldn't you say?

Yeah, I

saw

my

brothers

and Antisemitism is just

coming from and well there are

there are there are a handful of loopy people out there that I have.

Read and it's I think it's a minority of people but there are people who believe that there are no

Ethnic Jews today and things like that, which I think are that kind of

rhetoric is a nonsensical waste of time.

Because there are people who identify themselves that way anyway, and you have the same

obstacles for evangelism before you so why even go into some ridiculous things like that,

you know, I mean, it's.

You know, like these are just nothing but the ancestors of Russians Russian

Gentiles who centuries ago adopted Judaism or something.

We have Tyler and mastic Beach Long Island, New York, and I know that you have touched on this already.

But he says our Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians.

Our Reformed Baptists and Presbyterian covenant theology.

Similar in their view of the

Abrahamic

and Mosaic

covenants also

happen

to write

a lot.

It's guys

actually

see some more

modern reformed

Baptist

and.

What would you have to say about the Levitical and Davidic covenants?

I

view

those two

covenants.

First

of

all,

nobody

talks

about the

was the

greatest

and.

We have Bibi in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania who wants to know.

In summary, what is your reaction to the federal vision movement?

Who believes that All those who are baptized

Into the covenant are Christians, but being a Christian is not

Equivalent necessarily to being among the elect.

They will say that Reprobates are also true Christians

In that they have been baptized and are identified with the covenant, but they are not

Guaranteed that they are of the elect nor are they guaranteed of the eternal life if they

abandon covenant keeping.

No, no, no, no, not not the 1689

Federalist the federal vision, Auburn Avenue, Presbyterian.

And

the

idea

is

that

he

actually

called

Simon

able

reformed

Baptist

and and

correct

me

if.

Wrong or at least if I am NOT representing you because I'm also a reformed Baptist.

The way that I see it and the way many reformed Baptists. I know see it is that

only those who are regenerate are Truly a

part of the covenant and when we baptize someone that later turns out

to be a false Convert we would not say that they were ever truly in the

covenant.

Nor would we say they were ever truly Christian.

The federal visionist folks the Auburn Avenue Auburn Avenue theology folks say they were

truly in the covenant and they were truly Christian.

Wheat and tares,

right?

Well

in one sense though,

wouldn't

you say in.

Contradiction to our landmark Baptist friends that the invisible and

universal church are.

Or is only comprised of those born again.

The outward physical church is not.

Right, right.

Exactly.

And.

That it is right.

And that's that's the

good.

Actually

it's

the good.

It's

funny.

Because first returns kind of.

Oh, yeah.

That's why we even have the divide amongst Presbyterians over pato

communion.

Yeah.

Yep, and believe it or not I don't know if you saw the debate between

Dr. James are white of Alpha Omega Ministries and Greg Strawbridge who is a federal

visionist Presbyterian.

And.

Embraces what is been nicknamed the Auburn Avenue theology.

He will baptize the unbelieving spouses of believers

because.

Right, but it's dead wrong.

Right, he realized when someone from the audience

Asked him.

Well, I'm not saying he realized it just then because he actually said When somebody in the audience asked the

question during the audience.

Q &A Do you baptize?

Unbelieving spouses who are married to believers he said.

He said yes, I do agree with that and I do that.

He said that he and it's interesting though that he backtracked a bit and

said if they are Saying well, I want to

I want to honor this Jesus of my spouse.

So I would like to be baptized Because this is the faith of my husband and

I want to honor Jesus.

He kept like saying something to that effect of honoring Jesus and I want to get to know Jesus.

Well, that's not really a comparable Thing it would be that if the

spouse said I Do not believe in Jesus nor will I ever believe in Jesus,

but I'm just being obedient to my husband.

So baptize me that would be more in line with With that consistency, wouldn't it?

And.

And.

You know, so therefore it was really not as consistent as it may have

appeared originally.

I want you to have the next five minutes.

To really summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this subject

with

all those charts.

Oh, yeah.

I.

Right now the

thing no

Clarence

Larkin is right.

You're

wrong and

unity and

how you understand.

Well, I

would like

to

see

Chris

thing.

I I

saw the

Bible

point

in

time I believe.

And actually, you know some

of the questions and talking about eschaton,

you know

next week at least the

dispensationalism I

grew up

in and

of

course.

I'm sure you agree with me to repeat that there are a great number of our

Dispensationalist brethren who we agree with wholeheartedly on soteriology that would not

Be prone to the newspaper Gospel or the newspaper eschatology I should say

that are not even focusing primarily on that.

Although they may bring it up that the the main message that they are preaching is the life -saving

gospel of Jesus Christ and At least that is my experience with with

brethren who are dispensationalist who are soteriologically.

You.

Know in our in our camp like John MacArthur I can say that the

pastor of waiting River Baptist Church on Long Island who sponsors this program that church

is identified as a dispensationalist church, but it's also thoroughly Calvinistic and

I have hardly ever disagreed with.

Anything that I've heard from that pulpit because I happen to actually.

Edit.

Their radio program River of Life Which airs on a radio station out on Long Island.

They're a client of mine and I can listen to those sermons and Hardly ever hear anything

that conflicts with my belief system.

Well,

I know your website is Doug Van Dorn

comm.

That's D O U G V a n.

Van Dorn Comm.

I thank you so much for being a part of the program today pastor Doug and I look forward to you coming back.

Very soon.

And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

Than you are a sinner.

We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for our guests tomorrow on iron sharpens iron radio.

God bless.