Can women be pastors? What does the Bible say about women pastors? -Got Questions Podcast Episode 50

GotQuestions.org

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:24

Welcome to the Got Questions Podcast, this is episode number 50. Who would have thought several months ago when we launched this that we'd be hitting number 50 already.

00:33

So for today's topic, I wanted to pick what has been our most frequently asked question of all time, whether that's actually questions submitted to us or even just looking at the most popular articles on the site.

00:45

And that topic is the issue of women in ministry, specifically, can women serve as pastors in churches?

00:51

So that's the issue we're going to discuss today, and we hope by our discussion you have a better understanding of the ins and outs of what goes into this conversation, this doctrinal issue, and I hope the conversation is encouraging to you.

01:03

So on today's episode, I have with me Kevin Stone, our managing editor, and Melissa Hoodman, my wife, and the co -founder of Got Questions Ministries joining us on the podcast for the first time.

01:18

Nice to be here. So obviously this is a very controversial issue. It's something that can generate a lot of heat.

01:27

Our goal today is to generate light and not heat. So the main passage to look at when discussing this issue is 1

01:34

Timothy 2, verses 11 through 14. Let me just read those for you briefly.

01:40

This is from the ESV. It says, Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

01:46

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain silent.

01:52

For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

01:59

So in this, the main point of this passage in verse 12 is that Paul, in his teaching his authority as an apostle, says,

02:07

I do not permit women to teach or exercise authority over men. With that in mind, this would seem to be a prohibition against women serving as a pastor of a church which would involve her teaching and exercising authority over men.

02:22

It seems to be a very clear meaning, and this was the way that the passage was understood for a really long time.

02:28

But in the past, I don't know, century or so, more and more people have been objecting to this and trying to find alternate explanations.

02:36

Let me just cover a few of those briefly. The first something that people will bring up is that the women at that time were not educated.

02:45

Right. While this might be true, that's not what this passage is talking about. How many of the 12 apostles were not educated?

02:55

Probably 10 or 11 of them. So education status is nowhere mentioned in this passage as the reason.

03:02

Also some people try to make this an issue specific to Ephesus where Timothy was pastoring when

03:09

Paul sent him this letter. In Ephesus, the temple of Diana or Artemis was prominent there, and the women were very prominent in the leadership of the worship of Artemis.

03:20

So coming from that culture, becoming Christians, the women would want to take a leadership role in the church, so Paul was correcting that.

03:29

But nowhere in the book of 1 Timothy does Paul even mention Artemis or anything related specifically to the

03:36

Ephesian culture. Or the third, based on verses 13 and 14, is that women shouldn't teach men because women are more easily deceived.

03:46

We could possibly debate whether that's accurate or not. But if women are more easily deceived, why would we want women teaching children who are obviously more easy to be deceived, or other women who, according to this, would be more easily deceived?

04:01

So none of those reasons are what this passage gives for why Paul says, I do not permit women to teach or exercise authority over men.

04:09

Now the reason is given very clearly in verses 13 and 14. When you see the word for, you can always ask what it's there for.

04:18

In verse 13, it starts with for, and goes on to say, Adam was formed first, then

04:24

Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. So here we have

04:30

Paul's very clear reason for why he does not permit women to teach or exercise authority over men, because Adam was created first, and Eve was created for Adam.

04:41

And then also Eve was deceived into sin while Adam was not. So these are

04:47

Paul's reasons for the restrictions he gives. I look at these reasons, and I don't necessarily fully understand why these are

04:58

Paul's reasons, and through the inspiration of Scripture, God's reasons for restricting women from pastoral leadership roles in the church.

05:05

But these are the reasons the passage gives. So many people go through all these hoops trying to explain the passage away, or making excuses, et cetera, when the reason is very clear in the passage.

05:17

Because Adam was formed first, and because Eve was deceived, that is the reason why in the church,

05:24

God does not allow women to teach or exercise authority over men. So to me, it doesn't need to be that controversial.

05:31

And maybe we'll discuss this more a little bit later in the show. But whether we understand this reason or even agree with it, these are

05:39

God's reasons. These are the reasons God gave the Apostle Paul through inspired

05:44

Scripture to give to us as to why. So, Kevin, what are some of your thoughts? As a pastor,

05:49

I'm sure you've dealt with this issue. Yes, Shay. One thing that I'd like to just throw in here right away is that we're not talking about women in ministry.

05:58

Sometimes that's how it's framed, and people will ask things like, why are you against women in ministry?

06:06

And we just want to be clear, we're not talking about banning women from ministry.

06:12

We are only talking about the specific ministry, the specific role of women as pastor, elder, bishop, overseer of a church.

06:25

And the passage that you just went through there, Shay, in 1 Timothy chapter 2, lists two things that the woman is supposed to refrain from in the church.

06:38

And that is exercising authority over men, so spiritual authority over the men in the church, and also teaching the men in the church.

06:49

So there are many, many other ministry opportunities that women are encouraged to have in the church.

06:58

But the one role that is reserved for men, it seems to be, is pastor or elder or whatever title you want to give that, the spiritual leader, the doctrinal authority in the church.

07:13

So Paul says, if you have a doctrinal question in the church, who is the authority in that church?

07:20

Who are you going to go to to get the doctrine of the church? And Paul says it should be a man in that position.

07:28

Sometimes as a pastor, I have to exercise a certain amount of authority where I need to tell people, you need to do this because this is what

07:39

Scripture says. You need to change your ways. You need to get on the ball and do this because this is what

07:47

God commands. And again, Paul says here in this passage, it seems to be fairly plainly that that particular role of giving commands, exercising spiritual authority over the congregation at large, including men, needs to be done by a man in that position.

08:07

So we're not talking about just barring women from ministry, but we are saying that Scripture teaches that women should not be in that specific role of pastor or elder.

08:23

And as you pointed out, Shea, there are two reasons given for that. Paul is very clear that the reason for that has nothing to do with social norms, has nothing to do with the woman's ability.

08:38

It has everything to do with the order of creation. God created

08:43

Adam first, and then he created Eve. And that order of creation is reflected then in the order of the church.

08:55

And then Paul also brings up that Adam was not deceived, but Eve was deceived.

09:03

And so that too plays into the God -given order of the church.

09:09

So God has set it up so that men take the leadership role, the ultimate leadership role in the church.

09:18

They exercise the spiritual authority in the church, and women are filling other ministry positions.

09:29

Yeah, so I think both of you guys know that being silent isn't something that comes naturally to me.

09:36

I'm a very outgoing person. So I thought it was funny that Shea asked me to be on this podcast today.

09:42

But this is a topic that is difficult for some people and some women and some men.

09:48

But my understanding of this issue really took root when I understood the role that God had given to me personally.

09:56

Now, in our culture, there's a lot of emphasis put on roles. And even Shea and I just attended a party in our neighborhood, and the first thing people ask is, so what do you do?

10:07

And so often we're defined by our role or our status in the world. And I think that's one of the reasons why people, men and women, struggle with this topic a little bit.

10:19

So we're told all of our lives, you can be anything you want to be. Well, that's not really how

10:25

God's plan works. He has a structure in place, and God gives us our roles.

10:32

So for the example, I don't have the role of a mother. I'm not a mother, but that does not make me less of a woman, right?

10:41

If I don't have the role of pastor, that does not make me less than Kevin. That does not make me less of a

10:47

Christian because I'm not a pastor. My worth comes from God, and I'm saved through that grace, right?

10:54

I'm saved. Now, I serve a lot in my church, and I'm on a lot of different boards and different roles.

11:01

And I try to serve faithfully in those roles, but my worth doesn't come from that.

11:07

My worth comes from God. And the opportunities he provides are beyond my wildest expectations.

11:13

I've had so many opportunities to teach and to evangelize. And I don't have to have the role of a pastor to impact the world for him.

11:21

So I'm really thankful for that. Absolutely. Melissa, the two of us were talking about this episode, even on the way into the office today, about how not everyone, men included, can serve as pastors.

11:35

That in both 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, there's a list of qualifications for people who can serve in the pastoral role, and that eliminates a lot of men.

11:44

I know I have pastor friends who are struggling with finding qualified mints to serve on their elder or deacon boards because of those things.

11:52

So it's not like it's, okay, all men are qualified to be pastors and no women. It's like, no, that's not it at all.

11:58

Also, a way to look at it, which you mentioned this morning, was how many roles are there that women can serve in?

12:06

So rather than focusing on the one or few that women are biblically restricted from, how many other things can women do?

12:14

Women can evangelize. Women can serve in many ways. Women can teach other women.

12:21

Women are specifically called in the same pastoral epistles to teach other women. And then women can, in non -pastoral roles, actually serve as teachers for men.

12:34

There's an example of Priscilla and Aquila in the Bible where it seems that Priscilla was the primary teacher of Apollos when they got together and they saw that he was teaching, but he wasn't teaching the full gospel.

12:47

So the two of them as a couple, Priscilla seems primarily helped educate him.

12:53

So women can teach men. Women can evangelize. Women can do so many things.

12:59

It's just focusing on the role that God, for His reasons, for His purposes, has restricted to men seems out of place.

13:06

But at the same time, I get it in that often it's the one thing that people tell you you can't do is the one you most want to do.

13:15

And so that nature's in all of us. So I get it. And I imagine there'd be a lot more men protesting if there was a verse in the

13:22

Bible that restricted us from doing a certain role in the church. Giving birth, I think. I think giving birth is...

13:29

No, you guys can have that one. No worries there. But so no, and what's most interesting,

13:39

I mean, this was the topic I was assigned to write my master's thesis on. And I had no idea even at that time that God was eventually going to, through us, launch questions.

13:52

And then I was seeing how it's the most common question we've ever received. So trust me, this is one that we've been asked over and over and over again.

13:59

And the articles on the site have been tweaked and edited and hopefully improved over and over and over again, just because we know this is an important issue.

14:08

And it's also a hot button issue that we want, as I said at the very beginning, to speak the truth and love on this issue and to communicate biblical truth, not our own opinions, not our preferences, not, as Kevin said, what the culture views, but this is what the

14:23

Bible teaches. And here's how we should respond accordingly. Yes.

14:33

What you mentioned about Priscilla there made me think we need to probably mention that this biblical injunction that restricts women from the role of pastor is something that we apply to the church.

14:48

But it does not apply in the broader contexts of politics, for example, or business.

14:57

There's nothing in Scripture that would limit a woman's role in leadership in a business, a corporation, or in politics, president of the

15:07

United States or whatever. That's not what the passage is dealing with. The passage is dealing specifically with teaching in that formal role in the church setting and having spiritual authority over the men.

15:23

And so we want to clarify that and make sure that we're not being taken to say that we're going to apply this broadly across all of life.

15:36

We're talking about specifically the church. There are a couple other places in Scripture where we can see, though, that God designed the pastoral role for men, and one of them is seen kind of indirectly in the qualifications for the elder and pastor in 1

15:57

Timothy chapter 3. In those qualifications that you were mentioning, Shay, is the fact that this needs to be a husband of one wife or literally a one -woman man is what

16:12

Paul says. And then in that same context, he is also to be a good leader at home.

16:19

He rules his home well. Well, we know from Ephesians chapter 5 that the husband is the head of the home.

16:27

He's called specifically in Ephesians 5 the head of the wife. And so the biblical perspective is that men have leadership in the home, and then that is reflected as well in the church, that men are given that ultimate responsibility of leadership in the church.

16:48

And so there's a correlation there between the home and the church in Scripture. And then also, this is kind of an argument from silence,

16:57

I guess, but Jesus chose 12 apostles, 12 disciples.

17:03

His group of 12 included 12 men. Jesus picked no women for those roles.

17:10

The apostle role was a role for teaching and had authority, spiritual authority over others, and Jesus notably filled all of those positions with men.

17:23

Now, he called women to do other things, and there were many women who followed Jesus and were very faithful in following him and ministering in all kinds of different ways, but those particular roles of disciple or apostle, those were filled by men.

17:42

And I think that's significant, and it really should be discussed as part of this issue.

17:48

Absolutely. We've got a 25 - to 30 -minute podcast, and it totally could turn this into multiple episodes.

17:56

But one other point that I wanted to bring up is because we get a lot of questions about this, so I want to make sure to cover all of our bases in a sense.

18:03

So some people will ask, okay, what about a husband and wife or a woman serving as a pastor under the authority of others?

18:15

And some churches apply to that. I've seen churches where the husband and wife team are the co -pastors of a church.

18:21

Well, I don't think this solves the issue of what 1 Timothy is talking about when it doesn't say a woman can teach and exercise authority over men as long as she's under the authority of a man.

18:35

That's not what it says. Or churches who will allow a woman to come and fill the pulpit and give a full -on biblical sermon because, oh, well, she's under my authority.

18:48

So some people call this the umbrella. As long as the woman is under the umbrella of male leadership, then she can teach or exercise authority over men.

18:56

And that seems to be a violation of this passage as well. And some people will also focus on the title of pastor.

19:06

It's like, well, as long as we're not calling a woman a pastor, it's okay even if she's serving in the role.

19:14

And I don't get hung up on titles. I mean, Kevin, you may have a different view on this, but I would not have a huge problem referring to a woman who is a head of a church's children's ministry as a pastor or even a larger church where they had a pastor of the women's ministry.

19:33

I'm not that concerned about the title. I'm more concerned with what the role is or what the functions are.

19:39

When the Bible says women should not teach or exercise authority over men, I don't know if the title really matters that much aside from the titles of elder, overseer.

19:51

As you described in 1 Timothy, that clearly is a role restricted to men. But to me, women have so many different ways they can serve the

20:01

Lord. And just with having my wife on the show, there are many things, most of them involving public speaking where Melissa is way better than me.

20:10

Oh, thanks. Showing compassion to people as a pastor. She would be much better at that than me.

20:17

So it's not a matter of who's better, who's best. I've listened on occasion to some women pastors, and I've heard them give excellent sermons.

20:26

So it's not a matter of ability or skill. It's a matter of this is what Scripture says, and I cannot in good conscience go a different direction than what seems to be the clear instruction of this passage in 1

20:39

Timothy and elsewhere. We're not going to go elsewhere today just because for a lack of time, but this is not in any way slight against women or a restriction based on skill or giftedness.

20:54

It's a matter of, according to Scripture, God does not call women to serve in roles that involve teaching or exercising authority over men in the church.

21:08

Yeah, I think we can celebrate the roles that we've been given. And I think that's a good place to be, and it's freeing.

21:17

It's freeing to do that. You know, spiritually, as we said earlier, men and women are absolutely equal before God, right?

21:26

Physically, we're not equal, but spiritually, we're equal. And God has chosen distinct roles for both men and women, and we can complement each other in that.

21:35

And hopefully, how we complement each other really glorifies Him. And I mean, that should be our goal in everything, right?

21:43

To bring honor and glory to God. So I really hope that women and men can work together to fulfill our respective and our distinct roles, but really for the common goal of glorifying

21:55

God. And that's really my goal, and I hope that it is yours as well and each of the people listening today.

22:06

Oh, if I wanted to just wrap things up, I would point to Galatians 3, which is what

22:11

Melissa has been referring to with the equality, the spiritual equality of men and women.

22:18

This passage says that in Christ Jesus, you're all the sons of God through faith. So we were baptized into Christ.

22:26

You've put on Christ. There is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus, and we are heirs according to the promise.

22:35

And so somebody has said it as the ground at the foot of the cross is level.

22:43

And men and women come to Christ the same way. We both have to be saved the same way by grace through faith.

22:51

We are equal brothers and sisters in the family of God. There are differences between the sexes, of course, that doesn't go away.

23:01

And there are different roles in the church. Scripture makes that plain, but we are all one in Christ.

23:11

Our individual differences are not what define us. We are defined as being saved by grace through faith, and so we are children of God.

23:21

We're all in need of salvation. We all need Jesus, and we all have the same rights and privileges to the ordinances, you know, baptism, the

23:34

Lord's table, and every spiritual blessing is ours in Christ, male or female. But God does have different roles for us to accomplish in the church.

23:46

And I think over the 2 ,000 years of church history, at various times, the church has done a very poor job in what it restricts women to.

23:59

And even today, the tendency is, oh, women, you can only serve in children's ministry, or even children only up to a certain point, and to really limit women just to that.

24:12

I mean, as wonderful a calling that is, as important as that is, I don't think that's the biblical model either, that there's so many things women can be involved in ministry, including ministering to men and ministering alongside men.

24:26

So let's just keep that in mind, that according to 1 Timothy 2, what the

24:31

Bible restricts women from doing is from teaching or exercising spiritual authority over men.

24:38

And so anything that does not fall under those two things, biblically speaking, women are free to participate in.

24:44

You can have great discussions about whether women can serve as worship leaders, whether women can serve as missionaries, whether women can do this or that.

24:51

Some of these are maybe a little more difficult to discern than others, but as long as it does not involve teaching or exercising authority over men, there's no biblical restriction.

25:01

So I think the calling of God on women is powerful, is much needed, and just so many ways that women can impact the world, impact the body of Christ for Christ, and we should not neglect or diminish the impact, the value of women, both in our churches and throughout church history.

25:20

So I hope this conversation has been encouraging to you. Obviously, if you have questions, you can submit them at our website.

25:27

It's gotquestions .org. This has been the Got Questions podcast with Melissa Hoodman, the co -founder of Got Questions ministry, and Kevin Stone, our managing editor.