Can women be pastors? What does the Bible say about women pastors? -Got Questions Podcast Episode 50

Episode number 50.

Who would have thought several months ago when we launched this that we'd be hitting number 50 already.

So for today's topic, I wanted to pick what has been our most frequently asked question of all time, whether

that's actually questions submitted to us or even just looking at the most popular articles on the site.

And that topic is the issue of women in ministry.

Specifically, can women serve as pastors in churches?

So that's the issue we're going to discuss today.

And we hope this by our discussion, you have a better understanding of the ins and outs of what goes into this

conversation, this doctrinal issue.

And I hope the conversation is encouraging to you.

So on today's episode, I have with me, Kevin Stone, our managing editor

and Melissa Hoodman, my wife and the co -founder of Got Questions Ministries joining us on the

podcast for the first time.

Nice to be here.

So obviously this is a very controversial issue.

It's something that can generate a lot of heat.

Our goal today is to generate light and not heat.

So the main passage to look at when discussing this issue is first Timothy chapter two verses

11 through 14.

Let me just read those for you briefly.

This is from the ESV.

It says, let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man rather she's to remain silent.

For Adam was formed first, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a

transgressor.

So in this, the main point is passage in verse 12 is that Paul in his teaching, his authority as an

apostle says, I do not permit women to teach or exercise authority over men.

With that in mind, this would seem to be a prohibition against women serving as

a pastor of a church, which would involve her teaching and exercising authority over men.

It seems to be a very clear meaning.

And this was the way that the passage understood for a really long time.

But in the past, I don't know, century or so, more and more people have been objecting to this and trying to

find alternate explanations.

Let me just cover a few of those briefly.

The first something that people will bring up is that the women at that time were not educated.

While this might be true, that's not what this passage is talking about.

How many of the 12 apostles were not educated?

Probably 10 or 11 of them.

So education status is nowhere mentioned in this passage as the reason.

Also, some people try to make this an issue specific to Ephesus where Timothy was pastoring

when Paul sent him this letter.

In Ephesus, the temple of Dianna or Artemis was prominent there, and

the women were very prominent in the leadership of the worship of Artemis.

So coming from that culture, becoming Christians, the women would want to take a

leadership role in the church, so Paul was correcting that.

But nowhere in the book of 1 Timothy does Paul even mention Artemis or anything related

specifically to the Ephesian culture.

Or the third, based on verses 13 and 14, is that women shouldn't teach

men because women are more easily deceived.

We could possibly debate whether that's accurate or not, but if women are more easily deceived,

why would we want women teaching children who are obviously more easy to be deceived or other

women who, according to this, would be more easily deceived?

So none of those reasons are what this passage gives for why Paul says, I do not permit women to

teach or exercise authority over men.

Now, the reason is given very clearly in verses 13 and 14.

When you see the word for, you can always ask what it's there for.

In verse 13, it starts with for and goes on to say, Adam was formed first,

then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

So here we have Paul's very clear reason for why he does not permit women to teach or exercise

authority over men, because Adam was created first and Eve was created for Adam.

And then also that Eve was deceived into sin while Adam was not.

So these are Paul's reasons for the restrictions he gives.

I look at these reasons and I don't necessarily fully understand why

these are Paul's reasons and through the inspiration of Scripture, God's reasons for restricting women from

pastoral leadership roles in the church, but these are the reasons the passage gives.

So many people go through all these hoops trying to explain the passage away or making excuses,

etc., when the reason is very clear in the passage.

Because Adam was formed first and because Eve was deceived, that is the reason why in

the church God does not allow women to teach or exercise authority over men.

So to me, it doesn't need to be that controversial.

And maybe we'll discuss this more a little bit later in the show, but whether we understand this reason or even

agree with it, these are God's reasons.

These are the reasons God gave the apostle Paul through inspired Scripture to give to us as to why.

So Kevin, what are some of your thoughts as a pastor?

I'm sure you've dealt with this issue.

Yes.

One thing that I'd.

Just like to throw in here right away is that we're not talking about women in ministry.

Sometimes that's how it's framed, and people will ask things like, well, why are you against women in

ministry?

And we just want to be clear, we're not talking about banning women from

ministry.

We are only talking about the specific ministry, the specific role of women as

pastor, elder, bishop, overseer of a church.

And the passage that you just went through there, Shea, in 1 Timothy 2 lists two

things that the woman is supposed to refrain from in the church, and that

is exercising authority over men, so spiritual authority

over the men in the church, and also teaching the men in the church.

So there are many, many other ministry opportunities that women are

encouraged to have in the church, but the one role that is reserved for men,

it seems to be, is pastor or elder or whatever title you want to give that, the

spiritual leader, the doctrinal authority in the church.

So Paul says, if you have a doctrinal question in the church, who's the authority in that

church?

Who are you going to go to to get the doctrine of the church?

And Paul says it should be a man in that position.

Sometimes as a pastor, I have to exercise a certain amount of authority

where I need to tell people, you need to do this because this is what Scripture says.

You need to change your ways.

You need to get on the ball and do this because this is what God commands.

And again, Paul says here in this passage, it seems to be fairly plainly, that

that particular role of giving commands, exercising spiritual authority over the

congregation at large, including men, needs to be done by a man in that

position.

So we're not talking about just barring women from ministry, but we are

saying that Scripture teaches that women should not be in that specific role

of pastor or elder.

And as you pointed out, Shea, there are two reasons given for that.

Paul is very clear that the reason for that has nothing to do with

social norms, has nothing to do with the woman's ability.

It has everything to do with the order of creation.

God created Adam first, and then he created Eve.

And that order of creation is reflected then in the order

of the church.

And then Paul also brings up that Adam was not deceived, but Eve

was deceived.

And so that too plays into the God -given order of the church.

So God has set it up so that men take the leadership

role, the ultimate leadership role in the church.

They exercise the spiritual authority in the church, and women are filling

other ministry positions.

Yeah.

So I think both of you guys know that being silent isn't something that comes naturally

to me.

I'm a very outgoing person.

So I thought it was funny that Shea asked me to be on this podcast today.

But this is a topic that is difficult for some people and some women and some men.

But my understanding of this issue really took root when I understood the role that God had given to

me personally.

Now, in our culture, there's a lot of emphasis put on roles.

And even Shea and I just attended a party in our neighborhood.

And the first thing people ask is, so what do you do?

And so often we're defined by our role or our status in the world.

And I think that's one of the reasons why people, men and women, struggle with this topic a

little bit.

So we're told all of our lives, you can be anything you want to be.

Well, that's not really how God's plan works.

He has a structure in place, and God gives us our roles.

So for the example, I don't have the role of a mother.

I'm not a mother, but that does not make me less of a woman, right?

If I don't have the role of pastor, that does not make me less than Kevin.

That does not make me less of a Christian because I'm not a pastor.

My worth comes from God, and I'm saved through that grace, right?

I'm saved.

Now, I serve a lot in my church, and I'm on a lot of different boards and different roles.

And I try to serve faithfully in those roles, but my worth doesn't come from that.

My worth comes from God, and the opportunities He provides are beyond my wildest

expectations.

I've had so many opportunities to teach and to evangelize, and I don't have to have the role of a

pastor to impact the world for Him.

So I'm really.

Thankful for that.

Absolutely.

Melissa, the two of us were talking about this episode, like even on the way into the office today, about how

not everyone, men included, can serve as pastors.

That in both 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, there's a list of qualifications for people who can serve

in the pastoral role, and that eliminates a lot of men.

I know I have pastor friends who are finding qualified men to serve on their elder

or deacon boards because of those things.

So it's not like it's, okay, all men are qualified to be pastors and no women.

It's like, no, that's not it at all.

And then also a way to look at it, which you mentioned this morning, was how many roles are there that women

can serve in?

So rather than focusing on the one or few that women are biblically restricted

from, how many other things can women do?

Women can evangelize.

Women can serve in many ways.

Women can teach other women.

Women are specifically called in the same pastoral epistles to teach other women.

And then women can, in non -pastoral roles, actually serve as

teachers for men.

There's an example of Priscilla and Aquila in the Bible, where it seems that Priscilla was the primary teacher

of Apollos when they got together and saw that he was teaching, but he wasn't teaching the full

gospel.

So the two of them as a couple, but Priscilla seems primarily helped educate him.

So women can teach men.

Women can evangelize.

Women can do so many things.

It's just focusing on the role that God, for His reasons, for His purposes, has restricted to men

seems out of place.

But at the same time, I get it in that often it's the one thing that people tell you you can't

do is the one you most want to do.

And so that nature's in all of us.

So I get it.

And I imagine there'd be a lot more men protesting if there was a verse in the Bible that restricted us from

doing a certain.

Role in the church.

A giving birth, I think.

I think giving birth is...

No, you guys can have.

That one.

No worries there.

What's most interesting, this was the topic I was assigned to write my master's thesis on.

And I had no idea, even at that time, that God was eventually going to, through us,

launch GotQuestions.

And then I was seeing how it's the most common question we've ever received.

So trust me, this is one that we've been asked over and over and over again.

And the articles on the site have been tweaked and edited and hopefully improved over and over and over again, just because

we know this is an important issue.

And it's also a hot button issue that we want, as I said at the very beginning, to speak the truth and

love on this issue and to communicate biblical truth, not our own opinions, not our purposes, not, as Kevin

said, what the culture views, but this is what the Bible teaches.

And here's how we should respond accordingly.

Yes.

What you mentioned about Priscilla there.

Made me think we need to probably mention that this biblical injunction that

restricts women from the role of pastor is something that we apply to the Church.

But it does not apply in the broader contexts of politics, for

example, or business.

There's nothing in Scripture that would limit a woman's role in leadership, in a business, a

corporation, or in politics, president of the United States or whatever.

That's not what the passage is dealing with.

The passage is dealing specifically with teaching in that formal role in the Church

setting, and having spiritual authority over the men.

And so we want to clarify that and make sure that

we're not being taken to say that we're going to apply this broadly across

all of life.

We're talking about specifically the Church.

There are a couple other places in Scripture where we can see, though, that

God designed the pastoral role for men, and one of them is

seen kind of indirectly in the qualifications for the elder and pastor in 1

Timothy 3.

In those qualifications that you were mentioning, Shea, is the fact that this needs to be

a husband of one wife, or literally a one -woman man is what

Paul says.

And then in that same context, he is also to be a good leader at home.

He rules his home well.

Well, we know from Ephesians 5 that the husband is the head of the home.

He's called specifically in Ephesians 5 the head of the wife.

And so the biblical perspective is that men have leadership in the

home, and then that is reflected as well in the Church, that men are given that

ultimate responsibility of leadership in the Church.

And so there's a correlation there between the home and the Church in Scripture.

And then also, this is kind of an argument from silence, I guess, but

Jesus chose 12 apostles, 12 disciples.

His group of 12 included 12 men.

Jesus picked no women for those roles.

The apostle role was a role for teaching and had authority, spiritual

authority over others, and Jesus notably filled all of those positions

with men.

Now, He called women to do other things, and there were many women who followed Jesus and were

very faithful in following Him and ministering in all kinds of different ways.

But those particular roles of disciple or apostle, those

were filled by men.

And I think that's significant, and it really should be discussed as part of this issue.

Absolutely.

We've got a 25 - to 30 -minute podcast, and it totally could turn this into multiple episodes.

But one other point that I wanted to bring up is because we get a lot of questions about this, so I want to make sure to cover

all of our bases in a sense.

Some people will ask, okay, what about a husband and wife or

a woman serving as a pastor under the authority of others?

And some churches apply that.

I've seen churches where the husband and wife team are the co -pastors of a church.

And I don't think this solves the issue of what 1 Timothy is talking about.

It doesn't say a woman can teach and exercise authority over

men as long as she's under the authority of a man.

That's not what it says.

Or churches who will allow a woman to come and fill the pulpit and give a full -on

biblical sermon because, oh, well, she's under my authority.

So some people call this the umbrella.

As long as a woman is under the umbrella of male leadership, then she can teach or exercise authority over men.

And that seems to be a violation of this passage as well.

And some people will also focus on the title of pastor.

It's like, well, as long as we're not calling a woman a pastor, it's okay even if

she's serving in the role.

And I don't get hung up on titles.

Kevin, you may have a different view on this, but I would not have a huge problem referring to a

woman who is head of a church's children's ministry as a pastor or even a larger

church where they had a pastor of the women's ministry.

I'm not that concerned about the title.

I'm more concerned with what the role is or what the functions are.

When the Bible says women should not teach or exercise authority over men, I don't know if the title really matters

that much aside from the titles of elder, overseer.

As you described in 1 Timothy, that clearly is a role restricted to men.

But to me, women have so many different ways they can serve the Lord.

And just with having my wife on the show, there are many things, most of them involving public speaking

where Melissa is way better than me.

Oh, thanks.

Showing compassion to people as a pastor.

She would be much better at that than me.

So it's not a matter of who's better, who's best.

I've listened on occasion to some women pastors, and I've heard them give excellent sermons.

So it's not a matter of ability or skill.

It's a matter of this is what Scripture says, and I cannot in good conscience

go a different direction than what seems to be the clear instruction of this passage in 1 Timothy and elsewhere.

We're not going to go elsewhere today just because for a lack of time, but this is not in any way

slight against women or a restriction based on skill

or giftedness.

It's a matter of according to God does not call women to serve in roles that involves

teaching or exercising authority over.

Men in the church.

Yeah, I think we can celebrate the roles that we've been given.

And I think that's a good place to be.

And it's freeing.

It's freeing to do that.

Spiritually, as we said earlier, men and women are absolutely equal before God, right?

Physically, we're not equal, but spiritually we're equal.

And God has chosen distinct roles for both men and women, and we can compliment each other

in that.

And hopefully how we compliment each other really glorifies Him.

And I mean, that should be our goal in everything, right?

To bring honor and glory to God.

So I really hope that women and men can work together to fulfill our

respective and our distinct roles, but really for the common goal of glorifying God.

And that's really my goal.

And I hope that.

It is yours as well on each of the people listening today.

Oh, if I wanted to just wrap things up, I would point to Galatians 3, which is what Melissa

has been referring to with the equality, the spiritual equality of men and women.

This passage says that in Christ Jesus, you're all the sons of God through faith.

So we were baptized into Christ.

You've put on Christ.

There is neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

And we are heirs according to the promise.

And so somebody has said it as the ground at the foot of the cross

is level.

And men and women come to Christ the same way.

We both have to be saved the same way by grace through faith.

We are equal brothers and sisters in the family of God.

There are differences between the sexes, of course, that doesn't go away.

And there are different roles in the church.

Scripture makes that plain, but we are all one in Christ.

Our individual differences are not what define us.

We are defined as being saved by grace through faith.

And so we are children of God.

We're all in need of salvation.

We all need Jesus.

And we all have the same rights and privileges to

the ordinances, the baptism, the Lord's table, and every

spiritual blessing is ours in Christ, male or female.

But God does have different roles.

For us to accomplish in the church.

And I think over the 2 ,000 years of church history, at

various times, the church has done a very poor job in what it

restricts women to.

And even today, the tendency is, oh, women, you can only serve in children's

ministry or, and even children only up to a certain point, and to really limit women

just to that.

I mean, as wonderful a calling that is, as important as that is, I don't think that's the biblical model

either, that there's so many things women can be involved in ministry, including ministering to men

and ministering alongside men.

So let's just keep that in mind, that according to 1 Timothy 2, what the

Bible restricts women from doing is from teaching or exercising spiritual authority over men.

And so anything that does not fall under those two things, biblically speaking, women are free to participate in.

We can have great discussions about whether women can serve as worship leaders, whether women can serve as missionaries,

whether women can do this or that.

Some of these are maybe a little more difficult to discern than others, but as long as it does not involve teaching or

exercising authority over men, there's no biblical restriction.

So I think the calling of God on women is powerful, there's much needed, and just

so many ways that women can impact the world, impact the body of Christ for Christ,

and we should not neglect or diminish the impact, the value of women, both in our churches and

throughout church history.

So I hope this conversation has been encouraging to you.

Obviously, if you have questions, you can submit them at our website.

It's gotquestions .org.

This has been the Got Questions podcast with Melissa Hoodman, the co -founder of Got Questions Ministry, and

Kevin Stone, our managing editor.

Got questions?

Biblize answers, and we'll help you find them.