A Reformed Defense of Theonomy: A Response to Theocast

When the scribes and Pharisees asked our Lord about the greatest commandment, He replied, You shall love the

Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

So, why do we hear some of today's most prominent pastors saying things like this? It had everything to do with how we talk about the

Bible. And specifically, or along with that, what we point to as the foundation of faith, which for most

Christians, unfortunately, is the Bible. We need to do better.

We need to love God with all our hearts and stand unashamedly on the rock of His Word. We need to love the

Lord with all of our souls and respond to the worldview issues of our day with the wisdom and discernment that comes only from Him.

We need to love the Lord with our minds and understand the calling of God's people in every area of life in God's world.

We need to love the Lord our God with all our strength and face the work of building a life -giving

God -honoring culture. Join us for 10 days at the Runner Academy for Cultural Leadership as we consider how the gospel influences all of life and culture and the role that we have to play in applying foundational

Christian thinking to every area of life. This is the

Academy. I am Eli Ayala of Revealed Apologetics, and I will be bringing a six -part series on presuppositional apologetics.

What is this called, the Apology Academy? It's just called THE Academy. Okay. What's up, everybody?

My name is Pastor Jeff Durbin, and you're watching Collision Today. I'm gonna be interacting with an atheist on TikTok.

So here we go. Unsupervised and unhinged. Welcome back to Cultisty Aftermaths.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Ask Me Anything. You are watching

Apologia Radio's after show exclusively for all access. I want to sink it!

Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite? We're being delusional. Delusional?

Yeah. Delusional's okay in your worldview. I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional. You don't chastise pigs for being delusional.

So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly okay. It doesn't really hurt. She hung up on me!

What?! What? What? Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men.

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men, lauding them for their courage.

Go into all the world and make disciples. Not go into the world and make buddies. Not to make brosives. Right. Don't go into the world and make homies.

Right. Disciples. I got a bit of a jiggle, Nick. That's a joke, pastor.

When we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not.

He is the image of the Invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, for by him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things were created through him and for him.

He's before all things and in him all things hold together, and he is the head of the body. The church is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent, for in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in verse 20,

Colossians 1, and through him to reconcile to himself all things.

How many things? All. All the things. Whether on earth, on earth, or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Amen. What's up? What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Apology Radio.

This is Luke the Bear hosting today. Pastor Jeff is on his mandatory sabbatical, so leave him alone.

That's all I got to say on that. That's what I've tried to do. Yeah, thank you. Mine's coming up, so I appreciate the...

Oh, good. I get to leave you alone, too. Yeah, finally. Oh, I'm excited for today's episode.

So I'll just, I'm gonna get right into it. We got a lot to discuss, so first I got my guy, the

DOC over here. I'm trying to think of a good nickname. So far, I'm liking the DOC. Director of Communications.

We're in abortion now. Zachary Conover. Yeah, that's me. What up? What up, though?

And for the first time ever on Apology Radio... And the last. Yeah, maybe the last.

Yeah, we'll see. Eric Yeager, you might... There's another Yeager here, other than Summer. Yeah, you might know him as Summer's husband.

Yeah, that's good. It's a good thing. And or Dr. White's son -in -law. These are both true.

Very true. Yep. I just think he's a brother in Christ, but that's me. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Some grant me that title. It's just not the title of master. Neither of those are his real identity.

I mean, they're part of his identity, but that's not what he identifies in or as. Yeah. Because he identifies as a

Christian. What is my identity? Yeah, thank you. I was wondering where we were going with that one. Yes, yes. He identifies in the

Lord. I was getting to it. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. All right. There's a lot of things we've said true about Eric today.

They're all true so far. So far. But yes, he is a Christian first, husband second, son -in -law, even after that.

Even after that. Yes, indeed. After father. Right. Yeah, there's a father in there somewhere. But yeah, hi.

Welcome. Yeah, welcome Eric, right? Yeah, it's fun to be here. Oh, man. I can already tell it's gonna be good. It's gonna be good.

I hope so. So, yeah, so we've been getting a lot of requests from people to respond to Theocasts.

They did a show a couple weeks ago. We're going to play some clips through that and kind of respond to some of it called a reformed response to Theonomy.

So we'll get to that. They've got a series of shows we're going to hopefully get to in the future as well. Kind of along the same topic.

So, yeah, hopefully you guys enjoy this. I don't have anything else to really announce.

You got anything going on at the EAN? No, not really. I mean other than... It's kind of quiet legislatively. Yeah, so we're passing kind of into a different season now and talking about how best to steward the momentum and the resources and the connections that God has brought about in our ministry so that we can ramp up for next year in that area.

Of course, we're still doing all the usual stuff, connecting churches, equipping churches, but as to all of the activity of the first part of the year, you know,

God's done some great things, some unprecedented things in terms of how many states now are on board with this type of work and legislation.

It's really powerful to be a part of it and to get to go to these places and to stand before the common kingdom civil realm.

There you are. And command that they obey Jesus and his law. It's unbelievable. It's so funny.

I was in the state capitol in Missouri and it's, I mean, it's beautiful. Most state capitals are beautiful on the interior part especially, but this one was just huge and you go inside and you look on all the pillars all around on the interior and there's scripture everywhere.

The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. All of these verses inside. It's like, where did we ever get the idea that this realm or, you know, this entity isn't accountable to the

Lord? Yeah. Where did that come from? Man. Certainly didn't come from God's word.

I mean, right. Otherwise it wouldn't be quoted on the pillars that hold up the foundations. Exactly.

My joke threw me off. Is Alabama completely dead now for this?

As far as I'm aware, yeah, it didn't get a hearing. Yeah, which is what we figured was going to happen.

Yeah, but that's how we have to start in each state and then we can expose those legislators that fail to be courageous.

Right. By their votes or lack thereof. So yeah, like Zach was saying, for those that don't know, the legislative session in most states is usually typically done by April.

Alabama was one that it went a little later. And so that's why we were still out there. Ohio, Louisiana goes a little bit later.

Pennsylvania. I think there's Tuesdays. Pennsylvania and one other go year round. But we don't have anything going on in Pennsylvania this year.

So, yep, we kind of been hitting it hard this first quarter of the year. Now we're actually almost done with the second quarter of the year, which is crazy.

Yeah. And then the rest of the year, we're going to be gearing back up to get to get going in those states again next year.

So please be praying for Zach and and those involved legislatively here and across all these different states that people were working with solid brothers and sisters.

So yeah, churches, more churches, more churches involved and the ones that are involved, equipped and trained and mobilized for the activity.

Sweet. All right. Um, okay, so I wanted to bring

Eric on one specific reason um What's a lot of there's a lot of reasons just one, but one specific, um hat for one.

It's hat. Yeah 1689, right? Yeah, actually that is very true. Yeah, um because uh

John and Justin from theocasts are 1689 federalists and There's one eric's my go -to guy when it comes to anything related to the

Baptist covenant theology and 1689 federalism all that stuff like eric's my guy So I was like, you know what why don't you come on?

Yeah, and your boss was like just take the time off. We'll even pay you. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Wow vacation time, you know

But whatever it's pto baby, but dude, you've been working your tail off. So you've earned it

I know I was telling eric before this anytime like we're messaging each other I can hear him Manually working in the background like I can hear the wrenches turning and the stuff clicking and yeah

Working on different stuff man for sure. So he's talking to me about theology while it's like doing this kind of stuff

Yeah, only you know safely though, right? Always safely, right? Yeah, we don't want to get him in trouble. No, we don't

No, it's always very safely safety first Osha has nothing to be concerned.

No, no, he works for the gas lines just you know, so southwest gas specifically, correct Uh, it is true.

That's where I work. Yep. I've never said that publicly, but now there we go. That's all right. You're okay No, we're good

They're gonna see this and be like, oh If you want the address for the studio just go to yeah

No, it's all right. That is where I work. Yeah. I know I do public utility work. Yeah Yeah, you've been working a lot of overtime, right?

It's not been bad lately, man 45 50 hours a week. We were doing a lot of overtime, weren't you? Yeah, it was crazy.

Yeah, all those kids get hungry Yeah, so yes, yes again and again all the time stop

I know yes they do so all right, so um first I wanted to before I play some clips from this first episode, which

Just for the record. We're not going to even touch a lot of it. Um, I tried to pull out some of the really

Meaty points that were really important to get to There's a lot there's just no way we can get to the whole to the whole thing

But I wanted to thank these guys because i'm assuming they're going to watch this Um, they actually mentioned jeff and apologies studios by name.

Yeah and uh, so if brothers if you watch this I wanted to first thank you for your charity and graciousness you were it was very apparent that You wanted to to be gracious and just and to raise some questions

Um without being attacking. So thank you. We don't often receive that Treatment in that spirit that brotherly spirit.

Yeah. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you very much And they were very clear. They want to try to represent us. Uh, Uh correctly,

I don't think they did a pretty decent job. Yeah, there was a couple things we'll bring up that I would Disagree with but I thought at least the beginning you did a very good job of trying to represent us appropriately

So thank you for that. Um, so anything else? I'm ready let me uh

Let me get rid of this here. Okay. Um So maybe like bring everyone into this video.

I know they've done a few on this subject theonomy Yes, so this one we're going to play like I said as a reform response to theonomy there

I think this is like The first one in the series the next one they did was a pastoral Response and they've done one on cultural engagement.

Yes, they did that as well recently. So that just dropped this Like this week today or yesterday or something really new so we'll do our best to try to get to to everything so um, so yeah, like I said, i'm going to skip through the

The niceties and the graciousness, um from these guys here at the beginning Um, so i'm going to get here

Gabe, if you want to go ahead and pull that up um And i'll go ahead and play and we'll just i'll if you guys want me to stop just tell me something

Hopefully my voice will hold up I lost it last week um We'll see so theonomy essentially asserts that the judicial laws of the mosaic covenant are normative for all geopolitical entities

So civil governments are obligated in other words to enforce old covenant judicial laws along with their penalties

And any law not included in the old covenant judicial code would be out of bounds, right? So in other words theonomy understands that god has given the universal blueprint for civil government in the mosaic judicial law

God has given us a template for how we do statecraft and it's called the judicial code of moses, right?

and so I think it's important that Before I even read bonson.

I just want to acknowledge this that like the listener needs to understand that theonomy often comes Packaged with christian reconstructionism, you know kind of the

Rebuilding of christendom or the building of a christian society It often comes packaged with a particular kind of post -millennial eschatology.

That's very optimistic Um, so in theory, it's possible to pull those things apart oftentimes practically on the street boots on the ground

It that doesn't occur. They often come together and if you If you do if you are familiar with canon press or if you're familiar with apologia, you see a lot of these things coming together

That said our aim today is to deal with theonomy historically and theologically And let me read a little bit of greg bonson again who

I would understand to be okay before we get into that Yeah, maybe we could just okay. So right off the bat. Um, I felt like that was uh, a pretty fair definition of of theonomy

Um, and so just to give a little background because we were we were just talking about this before we started the show um

And we're going to get into the different the threefold Uh law in in the old testament, which they they agree with us

Well, I don't want to get too far because this point's going to come a little bit later But we would acknowledge that there's a threefold law

There's the judicial the moral and the ceremonial um, and they're in agreement with us on that Um, and so again, that was a pretty fair definition

I felt like um And but the position we're we're arguing from because they even mentioned it may have been before this maybe after but They say basically there's christian reconstructionism and there's general equity theon

Theonomy and and they're trying to address both of them. We're coming from a uh, general equity position essentially what we're saying is that the um, the judicial law given to moses in the old testament is

God saying this is how you apply the moral law to society uh through the judicial jurisdiction, uh through crime or to punish crime and And and how do you handle things in the civil realm?

Um, and so that's essentially all the all that we're saying is theonomy is that god has established this objective standard

Right for how you handle these things in society again taking the when we say general equity we're taking the the general equity of the uh, the principles behind these laws

Behind the punishment that god's given and so how do we take that general equity and apply it to society today?

That's essentially what we're saying and we're saying that um, yes all nations are accountable to god, um because he is our creator right, um in christ and this is what we're gonna we're gonna try to Did not get too far into the eschatological conversation today, but it's going to be hard to avoid it

Um, but as they pointed out they point out things normally coincide exactly and they're exactly right they're exactly right and And and i'll be honest.

I was watching this first this first. Um, um episode I was kind of think trying to figure out like where they were coming from.

Um, eschatologically which again we'll get into later Um, because it definitely has a major role in how you view

Um addressing the culture and Addressing. Yeah, uh the civil realm their perspective on the covenants and all of that really is the lens through which they see and interpret the relationship of god's law to civil society and You know these questions.

I think overall the definition was fair I think and they point this out as well

From our side, you know when we say theonomy we define the words underneath that God's law god's standard, but I think for the purposes of this discussion.

It's really essential to Say yes and amen to that but to go a little bit further and make sure that what's understood there is

There's the choice between theos namas and something else sure and that choice is either going to be an adherence to god's word or it's going to be an adherence or hearkening unto the word of man right or self which is where autonomy comes from auto self and so Um, I think that needs to be laid down at the front for where the discussion ends up regarding the judicial magistrate

Because the ultimate concern is that in this realm or in this sphere if you will

Is this office that god has ordained? allowed to simply go its own way in terms of What they are to enforce

In relationship to the law and in particular the penal sanctions of the law.

So the definition of theonomy I saw There's a gentleman. Um You know online that has a really good working definition of theonomy

I think and it's just god's judicial Ethical rule of men at all times by his word

That's that's I mean, that's that's a succinct summary of what theonomy is god's judicial ethical rule

Of men at all times by his word and yes, of course that extends to all men everywhere at all times that would be our position

I think like So much we can we come from our different camps or different sides on this discussion and we can get bogged down in language in particular ways that we want to express things

I think We're both aiming both at both camps are wanting to aim At kind of the same place.

Yeah, is that Not none of us are saying And I think they acknowledge this none of us are saying that we simply

Take the old testament judicial law and smack it down on 21st century america as if it's 100

Jot for like the same thing. Yeah, and nor are they saying That we're simply autonomous creatures that don't need to abide by god's law

We're recognizing there's the spot in the middle here And I think both these pastors are want to admit that hey the scripture

Is is our standard here that we need to apply the scripture, but it really does come down to an exegetical And a hermeneutical difference on how do we

Understand these old testament laws. What was the purpose for which they were given? Yeah, and how do we apply that in a faithful way?

I think they're wanting to I think they're trying to yeah But ultimately we are aiming to be faithful to the scriptures and we're having some hermeneutical and exegetical differences on how we apply

The old testament today. Yes agreed. All right, let's uh, keep playing this right here

A seminal figure In the the movement. Yeah in the the stream of thought and for my money, too

I think that he is the most Intentional deliberate exegetical guy as i've read and examined agreed

So i'm going to read a few quotes from bonson's book called by this standard the authority of god's law today he says

Quote the new testament does not teach any radical change in god's law regarding the standards of socio -political morality

God's law as it touches upon the duty of civil magistrates has not been altered in any systematic or fundamental way in the new testament

So there he's arguing For what I was mentioning earlier, right? He continues on we must recognize the continuing obligation of civil magistrates to obey and enforce the relevant laws of the old testament

Including the penal sanctions specified by the just judge of all the earth as with the rest of god's law

We must presume continuity of binding authority regarding the socio -political commandments revealed as standing law in the old testament last one

It is advocated That we should presume the abiding authority of any old testament commandment until and unless the new testament reveals otherwise

And this presumption holds just as much for laws pertaining to the state As for laws pertaining to the individual pause that real quick.

Yeah, I agreed like well, this is another one of those areas that It's important we have these discussions, right

Many will say exactly as bonson just said I think what i've heard from other gentlemen on their side is saying like we don't simply assume

This because they have this category which is an important category to understand if you're going to even begin to understand this conversation

This category of positive law versus natural law. Yeah, right and this natural law generally speaking would be synonymous with the moral law the ten commandments, uh, at least

Right and that all mankind has this all all individuals are beholden to uphold this law

But then there's also laws that are posited On top of that and where they would say that this moral law is expressed in this way at this time uh, for example

It's not innately Immoral to eat the fruit of a tree However, the moment god posits or makes a positive law that now you cannot eat from this tree it becomes immoral for you to break that law, so They want and and it's important but they want to make this distinction here between positive and natural law

And if we don't understand where they're coming from on that I think we can often hear them going like we don't apply god's law doesn't apply and I don't think that's what they're saying

I think they're saying we need to understand that the moral law is binding on all people in all institutions however

Institutions have certain tools the church has the keys us as fathers We have the rod of discipline and discipleship and the state has the sword and that's

I think what would be kind of dividing that Yeah, perfect. Do you want anything? I don't think so.

Okay. Yeah, let's keep going There's a number of things going on there theologically that we're going to try to deal with In this podcast last comment from me in terms of chalking the field.

I want to be fair here Yeah reconstructionist theonomy And a different stream referred to often as general equity theonomy are not one in the same

No, and so reconstructionist theonomy involves the establishment of christenedom in a christian society whereas general equity theonomy is going to argue for Looking to the judicial law finding the principles that it contains and then seeking to apply that In geopolitical reality today in geopolitical entities today.

I would want to ask what we're going to strike Do they agree with that last statement? Like I know they don't agree with the first statement so brothers do you agree with the second statement that we're to look at These old testament laws and and see how they apply to geopolitical reality today.

And if so, what way Do we look at that? Yeah, it's a great question What I do today is is argue against both effectively by getting at the sort of kernel of Of the argumentation, that's right.

Okay. Well, there's your answer In a sense. Yeah, we're going to argue against both of these perspectives

Yeah, and i'm just wondering how though because I I don't I guess What I would love some clarification on they might have gotten to it.

This was a couple hours of videos between the two but I think I think we might get into this a little bit more but I think what they're arguing is that we should um

We should come up with civil laws by Strictly through the moral law in the light of nature

That seems to be the argument they're making as informed by this particular view of this covenant, which they

Introduces the new covenant. Yeah, so yeah. Yeah, this is That's where it starts. Yeah, this is an arrangement and this informs, you know

What the role of the magistrate is in terms of providing for a harmonious society

You know, uh, you know healthy community relations uh the prohibition of of evil, but Um, you know, all of these things are are defined specifically and I think that one thing we constantly have to bring back to the forefront of this discussion is

Okay, those are the perspectives that were laid down That's what you're going to be contending against and so Again, here's the way that this is posited.

Um theonomy or autonomy uh by what standard exactly or who gets to decide what's just if we reject applying the basic moral principles of God's instruction to the modern day situation and how

Pray tell if we construct an ethical system Uh just penalties for infractions of those laws

What is that based on that is going to be or uh have an objective grounding

If not in god's law, is is it just going to be the product of someone's best guess

Is it going to be what works? pragmatically speaking from a human perspective um, what criteria are we basing that on to show that this is going to be anything other than A man's fallen reason or flawed perspective.

Yeah, because that's that's kind of what what it comes down to is What will inform?

Um the way that law and the enforcement of that law is meted out in a society

Will it be god's revelation? Or man's fallen reason like like in other words that just assuming for a second the the two kingdom paradigm

Which by the way is what they hold they hold yes Which is what they I think they call it the doctrine of two kingdoms, but assuming that for a second let's say that The civil magistrate is only to uphold the second table.

Okay, if we're going to adopt that position How what is the penology from your position?

What is the just penalty? For that even just the second table. Do we look to the old testament at all?

To inform what I just adjust penalty for breaking Commandments five through ten are or is this something that's floating in the air?

Like why the coyote falling off of a cliff, right? Is this something that's floating in the air that we grasp at? What works, uh according to our own understanding?

And I I would I don't understand how we could not look At what god has said is just a just Just penalty for even the second table

And not be informed by that so if they're informed by it how how are we informed by it and and why

Reject some of it and accept other aspects. That's the question. What's it anchored in? You know, what's it going to be grounded in?

Yeah. Yeah, exactly and I was going to say like What's important to know here is not all sins are crimes, right?

and so like even just if we're going to say that we can only Punish the second table of the law like, you know, like there's there's plenty of things that god says

This is a crime that are also sins, but not all sins are crimes if that makes any sense and so like that like you were saying like we have to have an objective standard to To be able to determine is this sin a crime if so Is it worthy of the death penalty?

Is it worthy of repaying seven? Like, you know, like where does this fall? uh according to god and his standard and that's all that we're saying is like If we're not using god's standard to deal with these sins that become crimes in society then

Who determines again? By what standard what is the standard for determining whether these are righteous?

moral ethical Punishments for these crimes if it's not god then who why why lock a thief up in prison?

Yeah, as opposed to making him pay back two or three times exactly what he's stolen. Exactly. Yeah, exactly um, okay, so let's i'm gonna skip ahead here to This is the part where we get into the threefold twofold.

Yes Super important. Let's go there Purpose which we're gonna get into just a minute, right?

Yeah. So now we're gonna get a little bit nerdy Hey, look, this is fun. But uh, justin do we want to now explain the moral and positive?

Okay. Yeah, so another Prong of our response and these are all kind of building on each other and I trust that will become plain

That's right is the distinction between moral law and positive law Or let me be clear here in this

Portion of the pod when we say moral law that should be understood to be synonymous with natural law

So we're talking about the distinction between natural law and positive law between moral law and positive law

And so what we mean by natural do not kill Yeah in this instance is this again?

It's summarizing the ten commandments But it is this law written into creation written on the human conscience that is known innately by all that's the moral

It's the light of nature that we can appeal to whereas positive laws are different They are posited

By decree or by kingly fiat. They are not dealing with things that are inherently moral or immoral

But once the command the decree is attached to them they become so examples

Eating the fruit of a tree is not inherently sin. That's right But when god says don't eat the fruit of that tree it becomes sin.

That's right circumcision Right not inherently moral or immoral to cut the foreskin

Off of you know, your eight year old or eight day old boy That but when god says you must do it that decree makes it an issue of faithfulness

It makes it an issue of morality and we can go on and give a number of other examples. I trust those two right, so that's a

Positive law can it's it's a weird way of saying it if you're not I remember the first time I heard it I'm like was there a negative law?

Correct. Maybe we can so Halt here for just a second and say this that Okay, once again grant the premise for just a second here to examine it but if man is not accountable to it until he um

Hears it right Um that that might prove too much.

I mean respectfully to these brothers. Um, you know people do not Innately know the specific will of god as it relates to these things, but that's why we have scripture

Also, like that's that's the reason why we have the word of god to tell us and so um, we have scripture precisely because We know that natural law is is insufficient

To govern these things. Yes, right. It's sufficient enough to condemn us before exactly it's sufficient enough.

It's a great To bring us underneath in relationship to god's law In condemnation, which is kind of the point is that even if humanity has not heard these things

That doesn't mean that they are outside of a covenantal relationship with god either obeying or disobeying

It seems as if either in christ or in adam. Yes, it seems as if what's being alluded to is that If fallen man has not heard this specific commandment

He's somehow exempt from being covenantally faithful or responsible to god

Whereas every single creature every man is in religious relationship to god and he is working all the time either towards faithfulness

To the image of god or unfaithfulness To the covenant, right? He's he's responsible and accountable to receive

Both the commandment and the grace that god has ordained, uh for mankind to receive and so um, you know jesus says man

Shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of god now notice

It doesn't say Christians shall not live by bread alone Man shall not live by bread alone

But by every word that comes from the mouth of god every man at all times in all realms, um in all places

Is responsible and that's that's why we send Of course missionaries to go and preach the gospel because of man's ethical relationship to god uh, but I think just just highlighting that one point is that no one's exempt from responsibility based on what they

Haven't heard now if you want to You know classify that as just purely the moral law um

All right, but I mean, I just wanted to highlight that point there. I do think go ahead pastor. I was just gonna say that There's plenty of examples.

We don't have time to get in all this day, but there's plenty of examples in the new testament even where the writers of the new testament or christ himself pulls in These old testament judicial laws that we're speaking of and assumes them as true like not muscling the ox for example um while he treads now, um that Is not uh,

I would not consider a light of nature command, right? It's not like it's a pretty obscure Exactly, right and there's plenty of like that and even like our laws

In our society today were written based upon the english common law, which was written based upon the laws of moses right, so like A lot of the laws we have on our land today.

These these guys would would be all for and uphold But what's the standard for those? It's god's word

It's kahn's law to begin with so like to say that we should only use the moral law And and what's revealed to us in light of nature.

It like leaves a lot A lot of things that aren't covered under that again, even if you tease that out to its conclusion

Applying, you know, don't muzzle the oxwalt treads and of course that's applied to ministers getting their just compensation for their duties, right?

Are we really going to suggest that just because that's applied to a new testament church official?

That it that's that doesn't have any bearing for the employee expecting a just wage for his efforts or an ox

Like does it just because it's applied to a minister does this mean that we don't we don't have to feed our oxen any longer

Yeah That that is still applicable and I think one of the I don't know if I heard it from it's such

It's such a true point. That's why I laugh from these brothers or it might have been from van droonen's book. Um But I don't think they're denying that every individual

Every individual is accountable to uphold god's law and that and that the light of nature is enough to condemn them and that that's the purpose of Of the gospel and I I think where I hear most of them come from is not denying that but rather saying that Jesus christ is king of kings and lord of lords in all of these areas

But the way that he exercises his kingship is going to be different and that Ultimately When the civil realm bears the sword, they only bear the sword against the love your neighbor

Portions. Yeah that they don't have an obligation and they're actually that I think they would argue that you'd actually be unfaithful to king jesus

If you were to ask the civil magistrate to uphold anything within the first table of the law and that would be where my big

Difference. Yeah with them is uh, this isn't an imposition I'm not i'm not advocating for imposing a certain religion upon society.

I don't think most theonomists are however We would all recognize that there's a vast difference between satanism

And christianity there's a vast difference between satanism and islam even uh when they're carried out

Carried out to their logical conclusion and and so we can't say that just because The civil magistrate

Isn't promoting reform baptist theology and society that they somehow get to act as if they're neutral Yeah, there's one god the triune god.

Yeah, and we need to servant. They are whose servant they are exactly, right? And when something becomes apparent if somebody is obviously publicly sinning against the one true god

That's where things the civil magistrate would have to step in this isn't sneaking into people's bedrooms or into their mosque

What they're doing in private on private property because god honors private property as well but when there's when there's public

Unrepentant sins against the one true god. That's where the civil magistrate should step in.

Yeah, so things like Pride month pride month. Isn't it? Perfect example. Yeah.

I mean i'm just thinking we're in june. Yeah right now I mean and if you don't want to say that what those people are doing is false worship

And I don't know what to tell you The reason that we know it's false worship is because men are getting arrested for preaching on the sidewalk to them the scriptures and committing the equivalent of our public modern blasphemy laws speaking against the false gods that we've come to recognize as Apparently having the authority in our land to such an extent that you know an entire people group have protected class status to worship them

Yeah So not weather but witch exactly right So i'm gonna i'm assuming we're gonna have a lot of people listening to this that are new to this discussion

So i'm gonna give you one more example of of a law that we Theonymous like to use that's a good practical law and it's the the pair put a pair put around the roof, right?

So like god's lock um Commanded that you put a parapet around your roof.

They would go up on the roof at night. It was cool up there That's where they'd hang out And if you didn't And someone fell off and died

You would be responsible for that life, right? And so like that's that's a really easy one to take that general equity and apply it

To our our culture today and like, you know, we live in arizona. They do that too in the episode Don't they did they bring they may have yeah, they use that specific example

So, you know, we live in arizona A lot of people have pools when I bought my house We have a pool the very first thing

I did was put a fence around my pool because I didn't want Any of my kids or anybody else's kids or anyone wandering in falling in the pool and drowning it's the same we take that principle we apply it and but the point is like That's just wisdom and it's really based upon love neighbor

Right, you don't want your neighbor to die You love them enough to spend some money to make it safe so they don't drown and you're on your property but again, that's not something we get from the moral or Necessarily, you know, you could this is that we apply that's again.

It's applying the moral law to society It's not something that's found in the light of nature. It's something specific from god

That's just straight wisdom and it's love of neighbor But we can't just be dependent strictly upon the moral law and light of nature in society when it comes to Applying those those principles and it's worth mentioning real quick that the police aren't going around checking backyards

For for fences around pools, right Uh, this isn't just because we apply this doesn't mean

That the civil magistrate now goes around And polices the intricacies of everybody's life and what they do on private property, but when an actual sin crime occurs

That's when the civil magistrate Gets involved not before. Yeah. Well and and with the pool one if you don't have a fence

And the kid drowns you're liable. Yep. So in other words there needs to be a victim Yeah For the police to be a crime.

Yeah Okay, let's keep going What what it means I think is a good definition

By divine fiat. It's it's being decreed. You could even say decreed law. That's right

Yeah, yeah, and that's important to understand that those two because all right i'll just kind of jump into some of the theonomy argumentation justin is that one of the biggest one is that there is a there is a struggle to believe that the

Moral law is sufficient to accomplish what it has been presented to do which is to govern the heart of men in the minds of men and This is why even the bonson's book says by this standard, you know

The question is often asked in his book by what standard do we tell someone they are right or not right before god?

If we're not using the law Is what typically has been given? Yeah, and we would absolutely say that regarding the moral law.

That's right again Known innately people know to kill someone is wrong, right people know to steal something is wrong, right?

That's what's unique about the moral law or in the natural law, right? The light of nature we can appeal to it.

Whereas when it comes to the positive laws Nobody would know Innately nobody would know

That they should obey it unless they're told to that's again Remember nobody who would know that I don't eat the fruit of that tree unless i'm told that nobody would know that I need

To circumcise my son unless i'm told that nobody would know that i'm supposed to let my you know pick

I'm kind of collapsing some categories here but in terms of positive laws Nobody would know that i'm supposed to rest my fields on the seventh year or nobody would know that this is how we're to handle an issue of a kinsman redeemer like if if I if my

Brother is married, you know under the old covenant, right? If my brother's married to his wife and they don't have children and he dies then

I as his brother him to marry her And have children for my brother's sake nobody would know that it's right, you know, unless you're told to do it, right?

And I don't want to jump the gun here. We're going to get into this in a minute But we would understand that the ceremonial law and the civil law of israel are positive law right, whereas the moral law is

Moral and it is natural law in that regard. You can appeal to it as such it comes back to what you were talking about this is

That that leaves us How do we apply it then yeah if we if the civil law and and the ceremonial law

Have been abrogated except insofar as their general equity applies, right? We do How do we apply the innate moral law in such a way?

that honors god yeah, and Without a just penalty because that's part of it

It's precept and sanction Like we can't be faithful to god in the way that we construct laws without those two things

Otherwise what we're positing is just good advice, you know, like you should do this. You ought not do that Well, what happens if I don't right follow that right?

You know, there's got to be a way there's going to be a mechanism for enforcement, but I think that might be the next place to to spend just a minute here is

You know the longer we have this discussion the more Uh necessity there is to be precise

Even with these things the ceremonial and the civil law because He just gave several examples of things that would be considered both and civil and so we have to be

Judicious in the way that we examine each one of them because we would readily agree I mean, here's the thing and they say this israel had a unique status as the people of god um, you know, it was given laws concerning sacrifice and the tabernacle and the priesthood and You know holiness code and you know ceremonial

Cleanliness laws and all of those things that ultimately point forward to jesus and and are satisfied

Uh in him and that law is still very much in effect today How do we know that because there's a man reigning in heaven who?

Has transposed all of those shadows and symbols, uh in himself and now he ministers in Before the heavenly tabernacle to which we have access to so says the book of hebrews, but here's the thing we can distinguish that uh, you know the ceremonial aspects with simple justice like just because these

Laws if you want to classify them as ceremonial which is fine They did have a unique status for israel

They were relevant only for israel so that the line of the messiah could be preserved that people could learn holiness and what these things meant until The substance of the shadows had come we can't then say that justice

Is only relevant for the nation of israel These Ceremonial laws were only relevant for them in the sense that it pointed forward to christ

Of course, they're still relevant because they're completed christ completed them, right but it's it's a stretch to then say and it doesn't logically follow to me that therefore god's

Prescription of what justice is and what it looks like is only relevant for the nation of israel um excellent point and that's and i'm trying not to get too far off here, but that's one thing we discussed that I would

Like to have seen more conversation about as they kind of just make this assertion that these things Uh, the the the judicial laws no no longer apply to anyone.

They only apply to israel They make that assertion, but they don't really ever Dive in and explain why it definitely don't show from scripture.

Why yeah, they give their three main points, right? Which are the the threefold division of the law the moral positive element and then the covenantal structure.

Yeah, they're which we're probably not Getting in touch today. Um Yeah, and so like again for those that are new to this conversation

We're about to get into the like threefold Part of the lawyer. So again, it's the judicial, uh moral and ceremonial we would say it's hard for me to say

When I say it too many times, I know it's like I end up a ceremonial So the moral law obviously we've talked about is is the ten commandments, right?

um, and then the Ceremonial law we would say um where the the laws that god placed on israel to set them apart

It was a picture of christ and when christ came he says in matthew. I came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it

He didn't get rid of the law. He's saying he fulfilled that A portion of the law and then again the judicial then is how do we apply?

Those moral laws essentially to society this is really important too because so many christians even have this notion.

Um, you know There can't be it's almost like they nix civil justice in the name of jesus satisfying the law

Like jesus came to satisfy the law Uh, therefore the civil order let's just leave it to itself and it's like well, wait a minute jesus satisfied the law

Uh, yes, but that doesn't mean that we don't have such a thing as temporal justice, right? And people being punished for crimes.

Otherwise If the wrath of god was satisfied in this temporal way we wouldn't have romans 13 telling us that the magistrate is the one who

Uh bears the sword and is the wrath bearing avenger Of god that kind of goes into and stop me if you want to get back on track

Speaking of romans 13 that does kind of get back into that third point that they have.

Yeah Um, they'll want to use romans 13 they'll want to use genesis 8 and 9 and speak about the new york covenant and then

Also look at romans 13 and other sections of scripture to say here's what the scriptures tell us the role of the civil magistrate is yeah, um

And i've heard those arguments and you should look into them and read them But when you look at romans 13 in particular talking about the civil magistrate as a deacon of god a servant of yahweh

And what they're commanded to uphold there just because what we see in romans 13

The examples that are given are from the second table. That is true. Yeah, but that does not necessitate

That they are not also ministers to the entire moral law. We you would need to establish that They are not ministers for the good of people according to the entire law and I think they root that in the noahic covenant right and do a 30 second just Quick hit so at least some people that aren't familiar.

Yeah, give it to us with Why they would hold this view I believe Is that when you look at the parties of different covenants, right?

I I have a wife you guys each have wives That's a particular covenant. Mine is with me and my wife you or you and your wife

When you look at the noahic covenant the parties that are specifically mentioned there it includes All of humanity and so they would say the noahic covenant applies to all of humanity

But then when you and that's where they would establish the common kingdom when when you start getting down into as opposed to the

Sacred kingdom as opposed to the redemptive kingdom where you'd get down to abraham and moses and david and ultimately

Finding its fulfillment in the new covenant those apply to a specific Smaller subset of the larger one.

So they'd say there's this large Common kingdom governed by a covenant that had noah has its head and all of his offspring essentially, right?

But it's not just that And and here's where I kind of take issue with that is is that true is everybody under the noahic covenant?

Yes That is true But the covenant wasn't made strictly with noah if you look at the text and if we're going to allow the text to actually determine

What who the members are right? It's not just noah Yeah It's actually the animals every animal that was on the ark and you could even make an argument from the text there in genesis 9

That it's actually with the earth Itself So so we don't do anybody any favors by simply looking and saying this applies to all people without recognizing that the noahic covenant

Was implemented after noah sacrificed an animal on an altar in genesis 8 a religious function a religious function

Uh, which I would argue points right back to the covering of adam and eve in the garden.

Yep, and god Promising a redeemer who would conquer sin satan and death by the seat of the woman

Yeah, noah's covenant that was god made with noah to to sustain the earth was specifically given

So that the messiah could come and take over the nations And and we can't lose track of the fact that just because it includes all people that doesn't mean it only includes people it includes

Everything. Yeah that is going to come under the feet of jesus like all like all things in heaven and on earth, it's it's so Examining that's so important because there is a recapitulation of the dominion mandate in genesis one there as well

And so god is giving these things to us. It's so interesting You said that even the earth is connected to this covenant, you know

It says in isaiah else where the earth lies defiled under its habit inhabitants The nations have violated the everlasting covenant.

So that also includes the creation itself Which makes perfect sense with what paul says in romans 8 how the creation itself is groaning with eager longing and expectation for the children

Of god to be revealed. It's longing to be revived along with the rest of us Why because it's laboring under the curse of adam's sin

Their earth itself is yeah And so for all things to be redeemed that would include not only sinners and their pretty little souls

Once they get cleaned up, but that includes all things The earth as well this fall everything touched by the curse of adam not not every individual mind you but all

Things he's bringing all realms Everything is coming under his feet and some of it will be through grace

And mercy and some of it will be through judgment exactly, but it's all being placed under the feet of christ.

Yeah, I uh I learned this from our friend andrew sandlin. Uh He talks about how christ came to Vanquish the works of satan right and he says

And and those extend as far as the curse is found. Yeah, which is everywhere just like joy to the world

Exactly. That's why we sing exactly right exactly sins and sorrow growing thorns infest the ground

He comes to make his blessings flow. So we think that every year do we understand it one and do we mean it?

Well, that's the verse we typically leave out when we sing exactly you can't leave that you can't sleep on that third verse, bro That's there's so much there.

Exactly So here let's let's finish here on this this last point here because we're running out of time

And then we are going to continue in the after show We'll try to get to as much as we can at that at that point as well

Which has a ton of implication for what is binding on people today. That's right era of redemptive history

So for those of you that maybe have lost, you know, we've been going through something we bring this back. So you understand part of the debate here is

It um should nations Right be required to live under positive law

And then be punished by their corresponding judgment that god puts upon it

That's the debate that theonomy is about so we wanted to take this time to appropriately represent them

I think we can definitively show From history as well as scripture that god did indeed covenantally hold nations accountable that were not israel

Yep, actually i've been itching to get out of you want to get I know That's why i'm like let's tear because well

This is important before you do because they actually it may be here But at some point they actually mention the theonomist will say this

But they're and forgive me if it's not the spot their their explanation. I found lacking but go ahead. So we all

Understand in leviticus 19 right? Love your neighbor as yourself right after that in leviticus 20. There's a Break here where it says the lord spoke to moses saying this starts a new section

And we what we see there is the judgment of the canaanite nations, right? Right? What were they judged for?

It was not strictly read the text. It's not strictly for violations Of the second table.

Yes of the law. Those are there right? Those are absolutely there, but there's also violations When you get into leviticus chapter 20 of idolatry

Uh, there's violations of murder sacrificing and offering your children to molex second table, but the first table there's idolatry

There's profaning the name of yahweh Yeah, that's the first table and and yahweh says that he drove these nations out

For that. Yep, and that he was going to then hold israel accountable to the same thing therefore be holy

Set yourself apart to me like these canaanite nations did not So even these these pagan nations these canaanite nations the seven nations that were driven out by the people of god

They were held accountable. Yeah, and they were judged By god, they were judged and kicked out for violating the first Table of the moral law.

We cannot say that nations and it says nations. Yeah, we cannot say that nations are not

Obligated to uphold the first table of the law when we have explicit Examples of god judging nations for violating not only the second table, but the first table as well

Which is why the prophets were sent to the foreign nations Because they were god's prosecuting attorneys

But what were the terms by which they were prosecuting the nations violation of god's covenant?

They were covenant breakers And just like god judged his own people. He judged them for the same exact things even up to and including

The penalty for the violation. What is there a different penalty for his people than there was for the nations for violating these things?

No, it's the same thing. The land's going to vomit you out It's going to expel you i'm going to expel you and all your inhabitants from the land

So it's not just that god doesn't have two sets of ethical standards, right or two moral codes um

You know, it it's also that he doesn't have two different sanctions or penalties um

In that way, of course there, you know, we can look at as we try to apply the the general equity of these things to the present day

There are you know, there might be Ways in which crimes are punished that god gives allowance for as to more than one

Sanction, right? That's not what i'm saying. But in terms of the moral codes that god gives we can't just split them up Right artificially and that seems to be

The kind of thinking even in the system is that there's a there's a division. There's an artificial division

You know the the the redemptive kingdom and the common kingdom god's law over here and god's law over here

And there's there's these differences where you know, if that's what we're going to posit It could just kind of drives a wedge between creation and recreation right a holistic biblical worldview and the schizophrenic nature

Of what we're attributing to god if we're going to hold on to that There is an appropriate distinction christ himself gives an appropriate distinction

He says love the lord your god with all your heart soul mind and strength and love your neighbor on yourself, right as yourself

He makes this distinction saying that there's these two aspects However, I don't see him anywhere

Saying that any individual or any institution? Yeah does not according to the tools and this is important According to the tools that god has given them upholding the entire moral law of god

Does that mean that this that the civil magistrate gets to come and discipline my children for stealing cookies?

No, no, it does not nor does it mean that I get to go arrest my neighbor when he committed a crime

However, we are both looking to the very same moral law and applying that and exercising that according to the tools that god himself

Has given us but it's the same moral law that applies to everybody in toto. Amen All right.

I'll try to get to this real quick and also set up a situation And say that okay, there's some collapsing and confusion of categories here and a really important Really important like flashing red light important thing to say at this point and it makes sense now to say it

Theonomists in terms of the traditional argumentation like greg bonson, for example They see not a threefold division of the law but a twofold division of the law.

That's right That's just simply false I don't know. He's gonna read a quote from bonson.

Yeah, I would just need to see what where that reference is It's just not true I that's why

I spent so much time trying to set this point up. It's just simply not true. I don't know any theonomist

I've never read a theonomist that would say there's only a twofold law i'm gonna keep playing here before and we'll

Address it other than seeing moral ceremonial and civil they see only moral and ceremonial

And what they do and what bonson says is that the judicial law of moses is moral law

Just illustratively applied so in that sense, okay The theonomic argument is that the judicial law is moral law and we would respectfully brother like You've posited that None of us have said that I don't know anybody else that says that.

Um, So that's just not that's just not that's where I was like They've done a really good job of representing us until this point.

I was like Nobody says that nobody believes that no It's that sort of thinking seems foreign to us and in in his explanation of the judicial law, yes, that's true but it's still it's it's a law and Said it's it's part of the threefold law.

It's not simply the moral law. So there's my my timer Last thing that I would say is the article is important, right?

uh speaking to you directly right now pastors, uh I think you would want to make a distinction between a

Covenant of grace and the covenant of grace And a lot of times when people speak about moral law, there's a distinction that needs to be made between a law

That is moral because everything that god commands is moral. He cannot command something.

That's not moral there's a distinction to be made between a law that is moral and The moral law the article matters when we're having this discussion and this matters for everybody

I would like I guess it does seem like there's a little bit of confusion there and that's not something that anyone

I know personally Is I would actually advocate for the what you're saying? Yeah, that's a helpful helpful way to put it.

I think Yes. Okay. So, um, we're gonna we're gonna end there. I'm just sorry They just uh, gabe just pulled up the super chat.

So i'm trying to answer these in a second um, so we're gonna we're gonna end on this point like I said, we're gonna uh,

Continue this conversation into the after show and I have another like Like six points pulled up that we're not going to get to so I apologize but we're doing the best we can

This is a really great conversation. Um, so all that to say andy p left us Two super chat questions.

Thank you. He said it would be helpful if a list was written up of what law should be created And their enforcement then we can hold the legislators feet to the fire

I'm not really sure You have any thoughts I feel like that has been like yeah, that's what we've been talking about today

Yeah, he's just talking about laws from the torah essentially, right? Um, I got you

That's that's what it seems to me. Anyways, uh that way so I think maybe just looking for something um a reference point to say to magistrates here's what god requires of you and um, you know

So yeah, so i'm trying I mean there's plenty there's been plenty written on it. Um Theonomy and christian ethics, but that's a fat book.

I don't think there's an exhaustive list. Yeah anywhere I think as we study scripture and as we come across these things in god's providence, that's what we

You know put forward is like, okay. We're certain now. This is what god requires. Yeah, so If if exegetically we can make that case, um, and and suggest wisdom on how to apply it

Um and encourage our civil magistrates to do so Then I mean absolutely

I think like so Just speaking of providence, right? Uh a good list that we can have is going to be determined by the battle that's in front of us if there's a certain battle

That's being fought. Yeah, then that's the scripture that we bring to bear Does that mean that the rest of the scripture is not applicable or valid?

No, but it means listen Here's the battle that's before us. There's a lot of other battles behind us We'll address those when we get to it, but here's the one in front of us.

Yeah legislators. Here's what god says on this topic Hopefully we've demonstrated that with the issue of abortion

Yeah, I mean because that's the fight in front of us culturally speaking right at this very moment. Yeah one of them yeah, and exactly so to just Tie in what you were saying there.

Like I was thinking as you're answering that um Again, I mentioned this earlier but a lot

I would say the majority of our laws original laws the constitution the amendments all that were based upon the english common law, which is based upon the

Mosaic law like and so um They were good laws to begin with and you're exactly right.

Like, you know, basically as these things come up we should be We should be examining

Every law that's brought to our attention whether it's something we vote on or whether it's something that legislators vote on Or are voting on or should be voting on like We should take every single one of those laws and look at it through the lens of scripture and say does this law?

Uh honor god, is this a just law according to god's standards and that should really be how we should be approaching it um

And there was something else I was thinking I completely lost it but yeah, so there's work to be done a lot of work to be done in our area, but maybe as a a reference point too

I know bonson and the onaman christian ethics at the very end and the appendices has the copy of the new england uh

Law code basically for the colonies. Yeah, and just seeing How they treated those things and degree of you know

Dependence and priority and all that as it relates to scripture. I know it's helpful to see an example Historically exactly.

Thank you for that So I remember what I was going to say and we I was hoping to get this that's at the very tail end of this

Uh where they mentioned romans 13 eric touched on it briefly but really romans 13

Defines for us the role of the civil government It's to protect the innocent and punish the evildoer so if The legend if the civil realm is trying to do anything outside of that they're outside of their jurisdiction

Um, and that's just defined by that passage right there um, so hopefully that's helpful.

I know we're kind of rambled on there, but uh, so the other question and to be honest, I do not know the answer this says wasn't whether witherspoon a theonomist should he and The other founding fathers have pushed harder to have more in the constitution

Like add chapter 23 of the westminster confession, you know, we fixed the westminster. I don't know if we did you're aware of that andy uh, we did but This is where I need zach laudenschlager

Zach laudenschlager would would nail this question. He would I forgive me. I I don't know the answer to that brother um, that's out of my realm of knowledge, so um

Anyways, thank you. Thank you brother. So, okay We'll go ahead and uh in there so i'm gonna pull this out and then like I said, we'll continue this conversation into the

After show so as always, uh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you everyone for Supporting us.

You can sign up um Through apology studios .com to get all access that helps us keep the lights on that helps the gospel go forth

We've been adding a ton of new content to all access and there's plans to continue to do that do that throughout uh

As long as we can um, and um Also get your free monson you speaking of greg monson.

You can get your free months and you account there as well and Uh, thank you for your support for end abortion now action for life everything we're doing to try to end uh, this lot of our pre -born neighbors in this nation, um, so zach

Thanks, dude You got it eric, this was fun bro, we'll have to do this again, man.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah Sorry, we didn't even get into the whole reason I brought you on here, but we make it we might get my yeah

He's gonna be in the after show. Yeah, if you want to know what that reason is better tune in exactly marketing

All right. Well, we'll uh, like I said, we'll be back next week. My plan is to get into the second video next week the pastor's response with the enemy

And I have a guest Special guests, uh schedule for that, but i'm not going to mention it because just in case he can't come on for some reason

So hopefully he'll be we get to go and i'm excited for that. So, um, we'll see you next week.