November 13, 2017 Show with Tim Bayly on “The Grace of Shame: 7 Ways the Church has Failed to Love Homosexuals”

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day of November 2017.

Well, today we are going to be addressing a very controversial issue in the church today, and

that is the issue of homosexuality.

And today we have a returning guest to discuss this issue, Tim Bailey, who is

an author and the senior pastor of Clearnote Church in Bloomington, Indiana.

We're going to be addressing his new book titled The Grace of Shame, Seven Ways the Church

Has Failed to Love Homosexuals, which he co -authored with two

other authors.

And it is our honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio,.

Tim Bailey.

Here again, and I'm looking forward...

I am as well.

And if anybody would like to join.

Us on the air with a question of your own for Tim Bailey on this subject, our email address is

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n

at gmail .com.

And please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live

outside of the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter over

which you are asking.

And I could readily see this subject lending itself to those having

personal and private questions.

So we will indeed grant your request to remain anonymous if that is

indeed your wish, if it is regarding a personal and private matter.

But otherwise, please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

Well, before we go into the subject, Tim, since it's been a while since you've been on Iron Trip

and Zion Radio, I'd love for you to tell our listeners about Clear Note Church in Bloomington,

Indiana.

Well, thanks,.

Chris.

We have a church here that is very much young, which I think is pretty much

true.

And

get into my sixth group and an elders group that

are about music, that's probably the thing that best known for

is that we have a whole bunch of good musicians because Indiana University has, I think,

the largest music school in the country.

And so we have very good musicians, and we're in the middle of a project called My

Soul Among Lions, writing

music and versification and recording them 10 by 10.

And so that's been a very sweet work.

It takes a lot of time and energy, and sometimes the children and wives suffer because of the amount of time they're

gone.

They've gone on a couple of returned

from Pennsylvania.

And it's

just kids under the age of five.

So there's always new...

Praise

God.

And I understand that

it is an unusual

church in.

That it has a makeup that includes both Presbyterians and Reformed

Baptists in leadership.

When the church stopped PCA or not, because I

was PCA, the men who were Reformed Baptists, and it just didn't

make any sense

to

speech time men come to church.

It's kind of interesting because they have not had any division

or...

And

I think the

reason it

doesn't...

Well, I have to highly commend to our listeners, My Soul Among Lions.

They are absolutely remarkable.

I consider them truly one of my very

favorite Christian recording artists.

I mean, obviously, they're thoroughly biblical because they sing the Psalms.

And the way that they sing the Psalms is, I think, breathtaking and unique,

and has some bluegrass influence.

Although Jody Killingsworth said that a diehard bluegrass fan might question

that assessment.

But I hear that in there, but it's a very unique

style for psalmody.

And I'm thrilled that the Lord is using them and that they have their second

CD out now.

I believe it's only two so far, correct?

Oh, okay.

I listened to this

one yesterday.

For them, I can't tell you the difference it makes to have...

You know, I

have been...

Amen.

Well, we are

discussing, as I already announced,.

A book that you have co -authored with two other brothers.

Joseph Bailey and Juergen von Hagen.

Is Joseph your son?

And tell us something about your son and also about Juergen von Hagen.

I have not heard of Juergen before being introduced to your book, but if you could.

Tell us about both of your co -authors.

Joseph is named for his grandpa and great -grandpa and great -grandpa and great -grandpa.

And if you go over to the Evergreen Cemetery in Gettysburg, you'll find...

Wow, because I do intend to go to Gettysburg for the

first time.

I've been living.

In Pennsylvania since 2012, and I haven't been there yet, but I intend to go there.

...address.

They

have a...

That's not actually a world cemetery.

A number of Presbyterian ministers in the Lancaster County area going back into

the 1700s,

but rather intermarried with their

son.

He is in Cincinnati at Christ Church,

and he planted a church here in Indianapolis before going and working on his second one

over in Cincinnati.

And then Juergen von Hagen is

an eponymous in Germany

and many, many publications.

He has done things and is currently doing things.

He pastors a

church...

Oh, praise

God.

Well, this,

as I have

repeated,

is a very.

Controversial issue because you have even those who are

professedly conservative Bible -believing evangelicals who

disagree on the approach to this sin known as homosexuality.

In fact, there are even some of our brothers who think that we are compromising by even using the

term homosexual.

They think that it would be preferable to use the term sodomy or some other term.

But what do you think is the main failure

in the church today that drove you to write this book along with your son and Juergen von

Hagen?

And then we'll go through as many of the seven ways the church has failed to love homosexuals.

We'll go through as many as time will allow.

But what was like the catalyst, the initial wake -up call for you that said, wait a minute, there's something going on

here that I need to address because it seems that there is a shift

taking place even amongst those who believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and who believe that homosexuality

is a sin, in fact a damnable sin, but there seems to be a shift going on.

So tell us why this book was needed to fill a void in the

literature of evangelicalism.

Well thanks, Chris.

On a number of concerns,

nationally known leaders were compromising on

the

issue.

And all of us, I think, and pastors tend to

change our language in order to show ourselves reasonable, especially if we preach.

And so I noticed a number of years ago that if I would use the word sodomy, people would have a fit.

An old seminary professor of mine, when I used the word sodomy on the website, on the blog, he wrote me and

explained that he didn't think I understood how.

And of course I don't,

depending

on the

situactuality.

Seeing

a

number

of these people repent and knowing them intimately,

a lot of leaders today don't know how to minister to

people who are tempted by homosexuality.

I've gotten emails from men, specifically, thanking me for using the word sodomy

occasionally on the blog.

And I think

when you

have people feeling

the

pressure of

Obergefell,

another

thing that's a reason not to

hire somebody, another, as

long as you get publicly and

to talk about

homosexuality,

you don't want to say

that

it's

true of

homosexuality,

it's true.

And that he

excoriated

them for

saying they repented

against

Repair

the Time, where at the very beginning,

Juergen

and I

were

upspending

that

book

together.

And I am assuming, having some familiarity with you, that you would

be very opposed to the self -righteous, hateful agenda

of the quote -quote God hates fags cult, Westboro Baptist Church, who seem

to have nothing but exuberant joy at the notion of homosexuals

going to hell.

They don't seem to have any message of hope by proclaiming a

gospel to them, by calling upon them to repent, they just want to declare that

they are doomed and they seem very happy about the fact that unrepentant homosexuals will be doomed.

There seems to be no compassion, love, or agenda, or mission

to rescue these people.

And I'm assuming that you.

Would be totally opposed to that kind of a thing.

Such were some of you.

Every single one of

our churches has a number of men who are...

Now, I know that saying, you don't know what you're talking about.

We don't have that in our church.

And I say, invite me and then see what is

confirmed.

And so I've been involved with so many churches and so many leaders that

the idea that anybody who speaks of the shame of

homosexuality is ludicrous, that's what the mainstream media wants everybody to believe, that if anybody's

opposed to the sin of sodomy, that they're

haters, this, that, and the other thing.

And we don't have to prove that to each other in the church.

And I would mention something.

In our church, we actually

greet one another with a holy kiss that we're commanded to

do.

And so in our church, the men do greet each other with a holy

kiss

because

homosexuality is

being written by...

Well,

praise

God for

that.

Well, let's go.

To the first way out of seven that you believe that the church has failed to love

homosexuals.

...for John

the

Baptist.

Malachoi means

men

who lie

with males.

And so

Malachoi

is a

separate sin from our Senequoia.

Well, what the SVD did into one thing, and it said

men who, or men who have homosexual

intercourse.

And so then in a footnote, they say up

in the text, it's in a homosexual

sense,

that

Malachoi

is

a

homosexual.

And

that's

on

alcohol

with,

isn't

it

true?

Almost

always, immediately, they'll say

you can't

have sex

before.

And

every one of these get men saying,

then you move over

to women

and you...

way

in

which a

healthy

person...

thinking about a hack,

stupid... out

of

our preaching,

out

of

our Bibles, and not

wanting to think about it.

Then

they say,

well,

people nitpick, because it has

to be a matter of the conscience.

They want to

write it

out.

You saying if

anybody...

we have to be...

And that's a

perfect

place for.

Us to go to our first break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Tim Bailey, our email address again is chrisarnsen at

gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA, please only remain anonymous if it is about a personal and private matter

over which you are asking.

That's chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Tim Bailey and more of our discussion on the grace of shame.

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And we are back now with our guest for the day for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to

go, Tim Bailey, author and senior pastor of Clear Note Church in Bloomington, Indiana.

Today we are discussing his latest book, The Grace of Shame, Seven Ways the Church Has Failed to

Love Homosexuals.

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at

gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence and only remain anonymous if it is about a

personal and private matter over which you are asking.

Tim, it seems so far that the title of the book,

Seven Ways, or should I say the the subtitle of the book, Seven Ways the Church Has Failed to Love Homosexuals,

I'm getting the impression that one of the ways that the church has failed to love homosexuals is by

being, no pun intended, too soft on the sin, which is in some

way or some ways to the modern person,

the liberal person, they would equate being softer

on the sin with being more loving towards those involved in it, whereas you are,

I can gather, are saying that we've been too soft on the sin, which is actually not loving,

if we really believe that that sin, unrepented of, will send a man or woman to hell, that we

have to be tougher on this issue.

Am I.

Correct in assessing that?

Yeah, I think that we're going soft on the parts that we

share with people who are involved in the gay lifestyle, and so if you think of

being homosexual, you can be homosexual in sexual relations.

A lot of homosexuality is just simply avoiding responsibility, avoiding doing

the hard thing, avoiding identifying as a man, being vain about your

appearance, and I think that's the reason that it's pulled out of the SDs, that you have

about them, we start talking about ourselves, and we realize

that in major ways, we, by not being

bold and not confessing the Lord, that we are not manifesting ourselves as the men that

God made us, and so I don't think it's just that we shouldn't be soft on

homosexual intercourse.

Of course we shouldn't be soft on that, it's bondage, but we also should not be soft

on the sin that the Apostle Paul says will keep us from heaven, and that's the sin of effeminacy

all through history, that's the way it's been translated, and

I've noted in my lifetime that the word effeminacy isn't

anymore,

it's the

best, it's fine,

the word

responsibilities

and

authorities

God has

given

us.

And you said something before the break that was interesting to me because it actually, in some ways,

was a stereotype breaker.

It occurred to me while you were speaking that it seems that you are including in this group of

soft men, men that the world might look upon as

virile and macho, and what I'm speaking of is men who cannot control their

sexual appetites, men who cannot wait until marriage to have sexual

intercourse, men that cannot commit to one woman, who think that promiscuity

is actually a sign of virility, masculinity, and machismo,

and you're actually including that group within a soft male category.

They have typical manly traits, you know.

In fact, the Nazi party, as you may recall, one of the

very first members was Ernst Röhm, who was a notorious

homosexual and pederast.

He wasn't even closeted about it, and he was a poster boy for machismo.

He was a very rough and violent man.

He had the battle scar, the dueling scar on his face.

He was known for wanting to beat people up, and so were his homosexual cohorts amongst the brown

shirts, and yet these rough, tough men were actually homosexuals.

Yeah, you look, those guys

would have had their pictures on the front of Vanity Fair.

Well, before we go on to reason number two, we do have a listener in Slovenia

named Joe, and by the way, Tim, if you could be conscious of the fact to keep your mouth near the

mouthpiece of the phone or however you're using it, because sometimes you fade out, so I'm not sure what's.

Going on on your end, but...

I'm sorry about that.

That's okay.

We have Joe in Slovenia, and he says, Dear Brother Chris, thank you so much for having the courage and love to

address the tough topics that we need to face biblically.

Please ask Brother Tim to discuss how the sin of homosexuality, sodomy, and how the

church has failed to love homosexuals is different from other sins in the

church, like gluttony, obesity, gossip, etc., that are accepted,

excused, and ignored.

In what ways, if any, is the sin of sodomy unique or different from other sins that

our licentious and antinomian culture embraces, even in the church?

Thanks again for Christian radio that is edifying and challenging in our walk with Christ.

That was Joe in Slovenia.

What was his list?

He said gluttony.

What were the other sins?

Let's see.

The sin of gluttony, obesity, gossip, etc.

That's as far as he went with that.

Well, as far as gossip is concerned, I think one of the

things you have to realize is that if you go directly to homosexual intercourse, there could be

no context in which desiring it or committing it can ever be good, and that's one of the things that's different

about gluttony and obesity and gossip, that each of those things involves

the use of your mouth that is hard to pin down when it goes into

sin.

We have to eat, we have to talk, we have to pray, we have to share prayer requests, and

so we have a tendency when it comes to sins that

are judgment calls, that require judgment, okay, to

sort of back off on them because we don't want to say where the sin

begins and where, you know, we eat, we have to eat, we have to continue to eat, fat people have to

eat, and so where does it move into gluttony?

Where does it move into their god is their belly?

With homosexuality, that's just not true.

This is wrong.

You can't have good homosexuality.

Honestly, I

don't think the Church goes easy on homosexuality

or gluttony or obesity.

I think the Church goes easy on every sin.

I think in our churches today, most of us, if we don't have any sin

and that what sins we have are private and we confess them privately, we don't ask for help, I was

just reading about Calvin and Pharoah, that they would announce to their congregations before

communion that they were happy to meet with people who had issues of conscience and needed help in working

through their sins in any of our churches today.

I think we're clean machines, and so when people say, well, you know, you're harping on homosexuality, but you don't say

anything against gluttony, I think that's bogus.

I think we don't say anything against any sin.

Some churches, there's some group of men that

talk when men,

my denomination for many years,

I'd say them to be an elder as you are.

Well, you know, the ring of truth,.

To take a different angle on it from what Joan Slovenia is saying, I think a very common

thing that has been said, that I've heard said frequently, is

sin is sin is sin.

Who are you to judge?

Just because somebody is a homosexual doesn't mean that they are going to be any

less likely to enter into heaven than somebody who has

a heterosexual lust problem.

But isn't there an enormous difference between a man who is a heterosexual

who battles a lust problem and does everything he can from

protecting himself, from actually committing the act physically.

I'm not saying that he is free from sin, but I am saying that there's a difference between somebody who makes

sure that his spouse has the same email address, and he goes through all of these ways to prevent

himself from looking at pornography and other things.

There's a difference between that and somebody who has given in and yielded to and surrendered to

homosexual proclivities by either fulfilling those desires in

physical acts, or by identifying him or herself by that sexual proclivity.

Yeah, I think that that's absolutely.

Right.

I think that, again, you don't have to have sex, you have to eat.

And so we have to keep these distinctions in mind.

Everybody has to eat, everybody doesn't have to have sex, so you can be celibate and not have

sexual relations with a wife or a husband.

But you can also be married, and you can move, even with your wife, into

a degree of lust and concupiscence.

It's a word that actually in the reform world there's been discussion of before, but we don't talk about it today,

because actually we don't talk about any sex.

Ask people and work against incest, we don't work against

child abuse, we don't work against fornication.

You know how many churches regularly ask the children of the elders and

pastor, and look out to see if they're being pure with their girlfriend or boyfriend, and ask them prior

to marriage whether they're being pure.

Now, coming back to the issue of how we deal with sin, I think

that in the reform world today, we've gotten to the point where we

say we do, it comes to pastors getting into the

trenches.

Now, I

realize people would think that pastors are dealing with fornication

and adultery and incest and stuff, but I think in most churches, pastors are scared out of

their wits, and so I think pastors

generally are no more involved in condemning homosexuality.

In fact, we'll

pick up right

where

you

left off

there when

we

return from our.

Break.

This is a rather long break, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City,

Florida, requires a 12 -minute gap between our two hours of programming, so please be patient

with us as we go to our commercial break, and now is a great time for you to write questions in for Tim Bailey,

and we know that some of you are already waiting in line to have your questions asked and answered.

We'll get to as many of you as possible, so don't go away.

God willing, we will be right back after.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune into A Visit to the Pastor's.

Study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE

Radio, www .wlie540am

.com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study,.

Because everyone needs a pastor.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours, with a little less than an hour to go, is Tim

Bailey, author and senior pastor at Clear Note Church in Bloomington, Indiana.

We are discussing his new book, The Grace of Shame, Seven Ways the Church Has Failed to

Love Homosexuals.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C -H

-R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if the question involves a very personal and private matter.

And that's chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Before we return to our discussion, I just have a couple of important announcements to make in regard to special

events that our sponsors are conducting.

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is holding their Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology on

November 17th through the 18th, that's this weekend, Friday and Saturday, at the Grace Bible

Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania.

Speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill, and Scott Oliphant.

The theme is For Still Our Ancient Foe, which is a reference to Satan from that

classic work, that classic hymn by Martin Luther, A Mighty Fortress.

If you'd like to register, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org, click on events, and then click on

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I will be there, God willing, this weekend manning an Iron Sharpens Iron radio exhibitor's booth, so greet me

if you attend the conference.

Then, coming up in January, from the 17th through the 20th, the G3 Conference

returns to Atlanta, Georgia.

The theme this January is Knowing God, a Biblical Understanding of Discipleship.

The 17th of January is exclusively a Spanish -speaking edition of the conference, and the 18th through

the 20th is exclusively in English.

The speakers at the English conference include Stephen Lawson, Votie Balcombe, Phil Johnson, Keith

Getty, H .B. Charles, Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, James White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia,

Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas, Martha Peace, and Justin Peters.

If you'd like to register for the G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com, g3conference

.com, and I ask of you, please, if you register for either of these events, or

if you are just contacting the organizations running these events to find out more information, please let them

know that you heard about them from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

And by the way, I also intend to be at the G3 Conference manning an Iron

Sharpens Iron radio exhibitor's booth, so please greet me at my booth if indeed you also attend

this January 18th through the 20th.

And now is the time for the most uncomfortable portion of my program, where I

have to rattle a tin cup and beg you for money, because Iron Sharpens Iron radio is facing some

very serious financial problems, for

lack of a better term.

My advertisers for quite a long time have been urging me to make public appeals for donations and

new advertisers, and I finally caved in a few months ago because the need is so great, and we are

indeed on the precipice of going off the air if we do not have new benefactors and

advertisers.

If you love this program, if you listen to it every day, if the guests and topics are edifying to you,

please, please consider donating to Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

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If you'd like to advertise with us, whatever it is you want to advertise, as long as it's compatible with the theology we express on

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So whether it's your church, your parachurch organization, your business, your professional practice, whether you're

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So send your email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line.

And remember, if you're donating, never ever ever siphon money out of the regular giving

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If you're not a member of a local Bible believing church, you're living in disobedience to God, so we urge you to seek one out

prayerfully right away.

But please don't ever siphon money out of your giving to your local church, and never take food off of your family's dinner

table, because those two things are commands of God providing for your church and home.

Providing for Iron Trip and Zion Radio is not a command of God, but if you are blessed financially above and beyond your

ability to obey those two commands, then we would welcome any gift, no matter what size, that you can

afford to send us.

And now we are back with our guest, Tim Bailey.

Tim Bailey, who is the senior pastor at Clearnote Church in Bloomington, Indiana.

We are addressing his latest book, The Grace of Shame, Seven Ways the Church Has Failed to Love

Homosexuals.

And this is a book that is co -authored with his son

and another author.

And if you would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And Tim, before the break, you were talking about how the outward

physical manifestations of sin, like active physical

homosexual behavior and other sins, that's just the outside of the cup.

And what you were saying right before we went to the break is that the inside of the cup needs to be dealt with as well.

Yeah, I was just reading some history about

Calvin's conflict with Pharaoh, that wonderful man that made him stop there in

Geneva and serve the church.

And when Pharaoh was 69, he decided he would marry a woman who, depending on which historian you read,

was 40 or 50 years younger than he was.

And so the question is, why did Calvin refuse to attend the wedding and even to

officiate at the ceremony?

And why did the harshest letter he ever wrote, Pharaoh, was condemning him for this marriage?

And the reason is that Calvin believed

that a man who is 69 can never be faithed in the way he

needs to be, because his sexual desires are just not what they used to be, and that if

a man at 69, well, if that man, there was

another guy who had been a monk who

married, and he felt

that age,

immodest, not just immodest, I don't know

that he would say

immoral, but he was not

saying he

shouldn't have sex

at all, but we're

not

intimate in marriage.

He just

got

an email

from a

man

in

Vault,

we

don't

have to begin to.

And by the way, I forgot to tell our friend in Slovenia, Joe, that you have won a

free copy of the book that we are addressing today, The Grace of Shame, Seven Ways the Church Has Failed to Love

Homosexuals.

We thank you for giving us an American address where your daughter lives in Georgia, where this can be much more

affordably shipped to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com.

So keep your eye open in the mail for a package from cvbbs .com, and your book will be

in that, or should I say, have your daughter keep an eye open for that package in the mail in Georgia.

Keep listening to Iron Shepherd's Iron Radio, and keep spreading the word in Slovenia and beyond.

Let's go to number two, the second reason.

Why or how the church has failed to love homosexuals.

A few years ago, Aiken and the chaplain

at Wheaton College hired a woman who identified as a lesbian to work as one of

the chaplains of sexual minorities on their campus.

She'd been there, she was a former Wheaton student that played on the women's basketball team.

After she'd been there a short time, she came out and

said the

people

who

call it sexual

intercourse,

who

identify as, and again,

the way

people

were

gay.

I just,

in

livingout

.org, you

don't

have any livingout .org

that's sex with their, and people

will

say, well,

wait

a second, the

response

is now, that's together

in script, people aren't open,

should not be identifying themselves.

That's not a

way,

not

accused of

being haters and

everything.

And something that you said is interesting because, well, everything you said is interesting, but

one specific thing that I want to address is that

those who are identifying themselves as homosexual activists, whether they themselves be

homosexuals or heterosexuals, those that are activists in favor of the cause of the

legitimacy of homosexuality are, in public anyway,

fairly unanimous in their condemnation against pedophilia.

And yet, many, if not most of those same voices, are saying that a

child should be able to determine what gender they are,

and that would include parents allowing that children to have either surgery or

hormonal treatment or whatever, to, in attempts to, in vain of course,

change the gender of that child, which I think is amongst the most grotesque and

disgusting forms of child abuse you can imagine.

But it's interesting how they think a child, even a young child, has the maturity to

make a decision like that, but not who they are going to have sexual relations with.

I think that pedophilia is riding on the heels of that.

I mean, doesn't that just make logic perfect sense?

Yes, it's the great hypocrisy where, for instance, in Cincinnati, where they've made reparative therapy

illegal, they also will help to fund parents having sex

the body of a child who is questioning.

Even though studies show that children that question, even into adolescence, what their sexual

identity is, they call it a gender identity.

Well, in the majority of cases, life is

adults.

And so, you know, there's a tremendous number of people who have had some level of mutilation

of their body and hormone therapy who are now reverting back to the sex that God made them,

because they're not happy even with the sex.

And this is error number

Al Mohler, Heath

Lambert, men like

that,

who are

announcing

public

do an end

run in conversion or gender identity therapy,

who are saying, no, we don't believe it.

We're against that.

And they announced it precisely at the time when, across our country,

laws were being passed against that form of conduct.

They're not to

do that.

What is the

actual reasoning that is being.

Used to be opposed?

I mean, I can understand that some conservative Bible believing Christians who believe in

inerrancy and who believe that homosexuality is damnable.

I can understand some of them not being into pop psychology as a as a

methodology to, quote, unquote, cure people without even the

regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

But I don't know what are the specific reasons that are being used by conservatives?

Sure.

Nobody's saying a particular form of therapy.

If you look at the laws that are passed across the country, it simply makes it

who identifies as gay love and live.

That's what's being outlawed.

And right as it's being outlawed across the country, you have the ACBC and

Al announcing that they oppose reparative therapy, even though in the past,

Al Moore has promoted it and has defended it.

Some of these guys, if you get them in a

private

very

young

age,

they're

holding

the line.

It's

sexual

intercourse

about the

nature of

sexual identity and

being

against.

Nobody wants to think that anybody in the country who's caving to the

forces.

But you don't have to cave completely.

All you have to do is send out signals that you're reasonable about it.

And then in the conversation,

you're against homosexual

marriage and

you're

against

homosexual.

Well, I'm

going

to read a question for

you

before

we go to the.

Break.

I'll read it to you and then you can answer it when we return.

We have Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says, I have heard

Chris Arnden, the host of this program, say that he is personally opposed to using the term gay or

especially gay community when referring to homosexuals, because it seems to be

acquiescing to the demands of the left culture.

Do you agree with Chris on this, or do you have a disagreement with the usage of these terms that have become

acceptable labels in our culture today?

And we'll have you answer Ronald's question when we return from the break.

This will be our final break.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question before we run out of time, and there are still a couple of you waiting, I know,

if you want to get in line to ask a question of your own, our email address is ChrisArnden at gmail .com.

ChrisArnden at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

God willing, we will be right back after these messages.

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Hi, I'm Pastor.

Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every Saturday from 12 noon

to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www

.wlie540am .com.

We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the Pastor's Study by calling in

with your questions.

Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs

a pastor.

I am Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World

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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God?

Or am I trying to please man?

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a Reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do

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That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

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Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor Iron Sharpens Iron.

Radio.

Welcome back.

This is Chris Aronson, and this is the last half hour of our discussion today with Tim Bailey,

author and senior pastor at Clear Note Church in Bloomington, Indiana.

We are addressing the theme of his latest book, The Grace of Shame, Seven Ways the

Church Has Failed to Love Homosexuals.

If you'd like to get in line and ask a question before we run out of time, our email address is chrisarnson at

gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the USA, and only remain anonymous if it is

about a personal and private matter over which you are asking.

And before the break, Pastor Tim, we had Ronald in Eastman -Suffolk County,

Long Island, saying basically, aren't we acquiescing to the anti -biblical culture

by using the term gay or gay community when referring to those involved in homosexual activity?

Well, you know, to say we shouldn't use the word gay and gay community, I

guess the

introduction of this book is words matter.

And in the introduction, I explain the history of the doctrine of

inerrancy or inspiration of scripture.

And I think we do have to be extremely precise and careful in how we speak

of sin, and of course, of the sin of sodomy, or men lying with men, and

soft manishness or effeminacy.

Living in a university community, I'll have people tell me that, you know, I'm not nuanced enough for the academics, and

I appear ignorant to them, and I should change the way I preach.

And I try to explain to them that if I use the word sodomy, it's not because I'm

unaware of how people will respond, but it's because I want to maintain the

shame of the sin through the way that I speak of it.

Now, does that mean that if I'm publicly testifying at a meeting, and the gay community wants to

open a halfway house or something, I won't use the word gay?

No, I just used it in saying the gay community.

Generally, I think Christians should just make sure that we use biblical language

to condemn by scripture.

And so you'll often hear people talk about somebody having an affair,

you mean they committed, okay?

I think we have to speak in a way that

makes in the most

sophisticated city maybe the world has ever known, in the most sophisticated.

We

don't

hear that the way they heard it, because again and again.

We have to speak in a way that reminds people that God is a judge.

Sin is exceedingly sad.

I basically agree with what you've said.

I mean, I won't ever use language like that, but we have to make sure.

One of the main points...

So in other words, if you're using the term gay or gay community, you should be very

quick to back up the seriousness of that behavior and not let people think that

this is just another people group like blacks, Italians, and Asians or something.

You have to be very clear that this.

Is a sin, and not only a sin, but it's an unnatural behavior.

Yeah, there are

some of you and living out there, and I point out all the words that are used in scripture to refer to

this sin.

It's an abomination.

It's unnatural.

The very word sodomy connects the sin with...

And just to follow up very quickly, because we are running out of time, and I already know that we have to have you back, because right now we've

only addressed one, two, and five, as far as the seven ways that the church has

failed in this area.

So we'll definitely have to schedule you for a return visit after the program is over today.

But I assume that the difference between using a term like sodomy and an abomination

and unnatural, which are biblical terms, using a term like

the God hates fags group uses, fag or whatever you might want to choose, although it

seems that those involved in the advocacy of homosexuality have adopted

queer for themselves.

They include it in their eye chart of initials, LGBTQ.

The other words are they jump out as being

intentionally cruel, hateful, and juvenile,

perhaps, to use terms like that.

Christians shouldn't be going around using those types of terms, especially when they are they

are trying to bring the gospel to the lost who happen to be involved in that particular sin.

They shouldn't be using the terms like fag and fairy and all that kind of thing.

No, godliness

is not...

...press against people...

...you say godliness is not... ...condemning...

...intentionally demeaning...

...have any homosexuals...

...without how many husbands...

...love he had for her so much so that...

...was

saying

that he

really...

And by the way, Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, you have also won a free copy of the book that we are addressing

today, The Grace of Shame, Seven Ways the Church Has Failed to Love Homosexuals.

So please give us your full mailing address.

So Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com can ship that out

to you in a timely fashion.

Thanks again for contributing an excellent question to our discussion today.

We have somebody closer to your neck of the woods, Pastor Tim.

We have Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana, who says,.

What a great discussion with many new thoughts, description of soft men, and finally discussion about

the church reclaiming things.

Thank you for talking about the difficult topics.

My question is, How does the church strike a balance between loving sinners no matter what sin?

What I mean is a friend who claims to be a Christian blasts homosexuals on Facebook

while living with her boyfriend out of wedlock.

Each is a sin, but politics causes us to grade sins.

How does Pastor Bailey think we should stop that in the church?

That's interesting because before we were saying it's very problematic to say

all sin is sin because there are different kinds of sins.

There are sins that would not warrant, for instance, a

pastor to be removed from his office because every pastor is a sinner.

So obviously we were not only to elect to church office

perfect men because they don't exist, but at the same time we have to be careful of not being hypocrites.

So I guess that's what really Aaron is talking about, a hypocritical judgment.

Well, Aaron's friend up in Indy, I would just go to the man or woman that's doing that, I think it was a woman,

and just say to her, you're being hypocritical.

Your sin is, and you should say nothing about homosexuality.

It's fornication.

I think that that's what he mentioned.

Yeah, everything gets politicized.

And so if the Supreme Court currently is not approving of abortion, but it's approving of homosexual

marriage or morals,

if the schism

between, we're going to want to jump on the bandwagon of the

point of current controversy, we can't do that.

Our message has

to be

a message.

Two

-time youth

set

aside

and

talk

to them,

preaching

against

it, wickedness

of this,

preaching

partisan

politics.

Well,.

Thank you, Aaron.

In Indianapolis, please give us your full mailing address in Indianapolis, Indiana, so that CVBBS

.com can ship out your free copy of The Grace of Shame, Seven Ways the Church Has Failed

to Love Homosexuals, which have been given to us compliments of Warhorn Media

and our guest, Tim Bailey.

So please get that out to us so we can have CVBBS ship that out to you as soon as possible.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York,

who says, I have heard Chris Arnzen, host of this program in the

past, say that he is not completely opposed to the idea of people being

born with the proclivity of homosexuality because of the doctrine of total depravity,

as we see in Romans 3 and other places.

And even David describes himself as coming from the womb as a liar.

Why would this be wrong to believe in this as a possibility, as long as you don't use it as

an excuse to continue in that lifestyle because you were born that way?

Yes, the listener is correct that I have posed that question.

I haven't 100 % fallen on that side.

But being a Calvinist, I do believe in total depravity.

And especially when you're talking about a reprobate, why would it be impossible for someone to be

born with the proclivity toward that sin?

And again, I have to say it 100 times over, not that we can use that as an excuse

for a person remaining that way or living that way proudly or what

have you, but can't somebody be born with that proclivity, just like David described himself

as being born.

A

liar?

...an

agreement

with

heterosexuals

in

the

ancient

world,

and

don't

act

on

sin,

not just from heterosexualism.

So yes, you can have a sexual desire for the same sex from a very young age.

Maybe they're...in mind.

Chris,

can I

just quickly mention that

they're

talking about deeper, and I'd really recommend that to people who want to know how to witness to...I.

Think it would be very helpful.

Yeah, and the website is...yeah, and the

website is warhornmedia .com, warhornmedia .com.

Thank you very much, RJ and White Plains, and please give us a full mailing address where we can have

cvbbs .com mail you a free copy of Tim Bailey's book, The Grace of Shame.

By the way, Pastor Tim, I never, in my posing the

possibility of a person being born with a proclivity

towards that sin of homosexuality, I never believed that that was a fixed thing,

as if somebody is doomed to that for the rest of their lives, because there are all kinds of things

that people have scientifically had theories about.

Even a higher level of testosterone in men leading to more violent and murderous behavior, that

doesn't mean that that person is doomed to be a murderer or something.

With the blood of Christ, anything can be transformed and made new.

But I want to make sure that before we run out of time...

Yeah, I agree with you, Chris.

And before we run out of time, I want you to have three minutes of uninterrupted time to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of

our listeners today.

Well, thanks, Chris.

I want us to be careful and to sharpen one another in how we talk and how we think about

homosexuality, because it's so intense today.

We have people getting fired, people getting brought up on charges before, you know, the

human companies of state government,

pressure on this

issue, transsexuality, queer, questioning, that all these things are

sexual minorities and they're equivalent to racial minorities, that there's no

moral content to them.

And so there's, you know, when we go around, this is not

hetero and homosexual orientation and I'm

against conversion.

All these ways are attempts on our

back by not being clear.

And our speaker speaks of

the sins and we

have to be shameful and an abomination.

His use is behind,

you know, to do the heart -heavy lifting and we can go

around making peace for but we have to

guard the way with and doing that guard

grace of shame.

Shame is a have to have Adam and

Eve know their shame after they said God was

merciful to them, that they knew they were naked from

God when they...

Amen.

Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the contact.

Information they need.

First of all, we have the Clear Note Church in Bloomington, Indiana.

That website is clearnotebloomington .com, clearnotebloomington .com.

And again, the website for War Horn Media, where the book

can be purchased, The Grace of Shame, that website is warhornmedia

.com, w -a -r -h -o -r -n -media .com.

And it also has other things that you can view and read and so on.

And I want to thank you so much, Pastor Tim Bailey.

And do you have any other.

Contact information you care to give before we go off the air?

War Horn is the podcast.

I think people will find that helpful.

It builds on the book.

And then Daddy Tried, it's my book on...

Well, I want to thank you again.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions today.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.