Are Bible Conferences Good for the Church?

Are Bible conferences good for the church? That's what we're going to talk about today on Conversations with a Calvinist, which begins right now.

Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist.

My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist, and I am joined today by my good friend, Rich Supleter.

Rich, how are you doing today? Rich Supleter Very well, thank you.

Thank you for having me on.

Yes, sir.

And this is a second time on the program.

You've also spoken at our church last summer.

You were here as a professor in our academy.

You came to talk to us about the subject of apologetics, and you are the head of AskAFormerAtheist.com.

That's your website, and we had, in your last program with us, we had you talk about that ministry and what you're doing, and you also go and do open-air preaching.

Tell us about what you're doing right now.

Yeah, so like you mentioned, we do a lot of open-air.

I actually was out and about, you know, the highways and the byways with the gospel four times just this past weekend, so we make it a real priority to get out there on the streets.

I really am convinced by, you know, calling, in essence, is this an evangelist, and just work with some great brothers around here to go out and read the word, preach a little bit, hand out gospels, and just engage people out on the streets.

Amen.

Amen.

And you are, this is what you do full-time, am I correct? You're a full-time evangelist? Yes, sir.

Yeah, we, so we evangelize.

Also do quite a bit with apologetics and help lead two different groups at the University of Georgia.

One is a chapter, some of your listeners probably have heard of Ratio Christi, which is a campus-based apologetics group, and the other one, the other group is more of a discipleship group that we call Life on Life.

Wonderful, wonderful.

Well, the reason why I asked you to come on the program today, and this was actually, today's topic is one that I've wanted to talk about for a long time, but also today's topic is, was inspired, in a sense, by a post that you wrote.

When I saw your post, it got my attention, and I said, hey, I've wanted to talk about this for a while.

Rich is going to be the guy who I want to come and talk about, because I feel like you, probably more than some of my other guests, maybe feel the impact of the subject that we're going to talk about today a little bit more than maybe some of the other guys that I have, because you are a man who is on the front lines of evangelism ministry and discipleship within the university, on the street, and all of us know that many times per year, dozens, possibly hundreds of times all around the United States, there are Bible conferences that are going on every weekend.

Christians are going to these conferences.

They are being fed the Word of God.

They are meeting with pastors that have inspired them, have encouraged them, have fed them the Word.

They're shaking hands, having their books signed, sometimes having their Bible signed, which I think is really weird, but we'll talk about that later.

They're at these conferences, but what you said in your post was, what is that producing in regard to ministry? Are we being fed and being ministered to, and then is it stopping with us, and is it not going out into the, as you just said, the highways and the byways, and is the ministry, are we recipients and consumers rather than ministers and producers? So, am I recalling what you said properly? I think that's a fair recount of what I was really trying to get at there, and I'll kind of, I want to start with sort of a disclaimer or a caveat of my own.

As you said, I'm not trying to in any way suggest that Bible conferences are bad or wrong.

Hey, there's a whole lot of good that comes out of these.

I myself have been fed in some very powerful and lasting ways.

You know, it's an opportunity for Christians to learn more about ministries.

I love the ministry tabling that goes on, the collaboration, the Lord leading different workers in the gospel together, and it's a great time of fellowship, of corporate worship.

So, I just want to start by saying that.

I'm not, I don't want to be taking this like, wow, I'm just out trying to zing conferences or anything like that.

It's just, there's so much good, but there are some things that we need to, I think, be cautious about.

Well, I would definitely agree with you that, yeah, we're not here to bash the idea of Bible conferences, and I know that especially early on in my ministry, I have been very blessed to get to sit in the same room with men like R.C.

Sproul and James White.

These were men who were really influential on me.

In fact, I was there and with the infamous R.C.

Sproul, what's wrong with you people? Do you remember that? Oh, yeah.

When he said that, I was there, and I remember looking at my wife, and I said, this will go on in infamy.

This will go on forever, because that was a powerful thing that he just said, what's wrong with you people? And it was such a funny moment.

Everybody laughed.

Everybody knew this was a big deal.

So, it is interesting to be a part of sort of a subculture that remembers a certain event, and that becomes a meme and other things.

So, yeah, neither one of us are here to say that Bible conferences are inherently bad, but I think that there are some things that do bring concerns.

I'll get the ball rolling.

I'll give my first initial thought, and I know you have brought sort of a list of things to talk about today, but to get the ball rolling, one of the things that concerns me is that we are producing these conferences, which by nature are huge events.

They certainly cost a lot of money.

They're bringing in people from all around the world, and they cost a lot of money to attend, which one of my previous guests, Conley Owens, would have a big issue with that, because he wrote a book on why ministry shouldn't be charged for.

So, that's another topic, but there's a lot of money involved, but there's also the idea that it boosts the concept of celebrity, and as we said, celebrity pastors are a thing.

Oh, this was what I was getting to earlier about my friend Troy on his podcast talked about celebrity pastors.

I don't really want to get into that necessarily, but that is true.

What we see is we see a handful of guys who are exceptional communicators, exceptionally gifted by God, who become very important in the lives of people, and by nature, it sort of diminishes the value of the local church, and we see people who are going to conferences and spending money and time at conferences where they're not spending as much money or very much money or time in the local church.

So, that's a concern that I have.

Yeah.

So, exactly, and again, that's one of my big ones.

I think that's one of the big cautions.

The Lord obviously has instituted the local church.

It says in Ephesians that he has gifted the church.

I'm sure everybody's familiar, Ephesians 4, 11, with pastor teachers on the local level, right, and evangelists and so on and so forth to equip that body to build up the saints that are there, and I certainly have no problem with the person being supplemented, maybe by a person who has been widely celebrated, and I want to say I'm convinced a lot of these guys are not seeking celebrity.

It's rather something that has come to them.

I feel confident saying that.

I don't want to name a lot of names here, but it's kind of the regular speakers at some of the more reformed Bible conferences.

As you said, they're really great speakers.

They're so persuasive.

They're wordsmiths in a way that I'll never be, and a lot of local pastors might never be, but God has not put those people over that local flock.

He has, in his sovereignty, he has determined to give that flock pastors and teachers to really be their main shepherds and equipers, and I see that as a tendency, kind of like this do-it-yourself type of discipleship that can take over with the advent of YouTube and these types of things, where a person could just take in a steady diet of their favorite celebrity pastor, and that sort of marginalizes the role of their local leaders.

Yeah, and to their credit, a lot of the guys have said publicly that your favorite pastor should be your local pastor, and I've appreciated hearing them say that, and yet it's funny because that isn't often the way people think.

The reason why they're having to say that is because that's not the way people tend to think, and again, this for me is not an issue of jealousy because I am a local pastor.

At least, I don't think it is.

I hope not.

I think that it's the issue of when I have people within my church who I know, let's say I have a group of people who are fans of Votie Bauckham, and then I have people who are fans of Paul Washer, and then I have people who are fans of John MacArthur.

What I tend to find is that they are very much influenced by those men, and so I'll give you a good example of this.

Post-millennialism has risen within the Reformed Church in many churches because of men like Doug Wilson, and I'm not saying this is bad.

I'm just saying these are men who promote these ideas, so just understand I'm not saying this is a bad thing.

I'm just saying we know Doug Wilson and Jeff Durbin and James White promote post-millennialism.

Therefore, we're seeing more people in the pews begin, at least I am.

I don't know if you're seeing this, but I'm seeing more people in the pews who are having these conversations and being more open to and saying, yeah, well, maybe we should be post-millennial.

Maybe this is the direction we should be heading because this is the direction that they headed, and these guys have influence, and therefore I should be going that way.

Yeah, it definitely seems like an influence.

Now, my local body, I'm sort of a quasi-outsider.

Let me just go ahead and issue that, too.

How do I say this without getting myself in trouble? I am not, and I'm convinced this is where the Lord wants me.

My main determination for being in the local body that I am is not, let me find the church that I think has really nailed its theology better than any other church in the greater Athens area.

If that were my main concern, I wouldn't be where I am.

Now, some people, if that is their main concern, I get that, and I respect that.

For me personally, I think one of the reasons why the Lord has me where I am is sort of as a, maybe a doctrinal check on a body that has a good heart but can tend sometimes to pick up some bad ideas, but going back to the idea of post-millennialism, probably most people in my local body would be somewhere in the kind of La Haye series.

Yeah, pre-millennial, that's very common.

Yeah, and it's one of those issues that I just kind of duck, but when I'm out and about evangelizing, I work with a whole lot of Reform Brothers, and some of them, in a way that I didn't start hearing until about a year and a half ago, have really jumped on board of this post-millennium bandwagon, and so yeah, so I think you're right there.

It's a handful of people have had an outsized influence.

Hey, and maybe they're totally right.

Maybe their read on this is spot on.

I'm not qualified to really evaluate that.

I have my own opinion, but it is kind of interesting that it's kind of a window into the outsized influence that can kind of go unchecked when some really popular faces and figures and speakers start really espousing or articulating a certain viewpoint.

Yeah, absolutely, and correct me if I'm wrong, and you can forgive me for being wrong if I am.

I know that I'm a Calvinist.

Obviously, this show is Conversation with a Calvinist.

You are more kind of in the middle.

Well, I don't call myself a Calvinist, but you know, I know some people on the, I can see it raw.

I can like see into the future, right? They're rolling their eyes.

He's one of those guys that doesn't call himself a Calvinist, and I don't know.

I, again, it's certainly most of the guys I work with are Calvinist.

Some of the guys I work with are clearly Arminian.

Yeah.

Okay, so, and maybe this will tie into what we're talking about here because when you're, what I found is when we're taking the gospel out into a world that, hey, let's face it.

They hate Jesus.

They hate the Bible.

They love their false Jesus.

They don't know or love the Jesus of the Bible, the Haman word of God.

They hate traditional family.

They hate all of these things.

I'm not going to typically push or make a big deal with the brother working next to me on his particular view of like limited atonement or something like that.

We're in the same trench fighting the same battle, and so what I tend to default to on the front lines, and I'm not saying these aren't important issues.

They definitely are, but being in the trench on the front line, I want to stick with something more like agreement in the Apostles Creed and things like that.

Sure, and my only reason for bringing it up, just so the listener understands, and Rich and I have a history.

We have many conversations online and different things, so I respect him.

I respect his ministry.

He doesn't have to be a Calvinist to be on this show, but the reason why I brought it up is because I do think that the rise in Calvinistic popularity, and that's the only word I can think of, is the rise in pop culture Calvinism.

Oh, that's a book title.

Mark that down.

I'll write a book, Pop Culture Calvinism.

The rise in pop culture Calvinism, I think, is the result of the, goes hand in hand with the Bible conference popular celebrity pastors because, I mean, we recently had a person visit our church.

Hey, Brandon, if you're listening, Brandon knows who he is.

Brandon and Lorraine just visited our church, and they said, hey, we're not Calvinists.

Can we come? And I was like, we were like, yes, please come, and the one thing that he told me was everybody listens to his Calvinist.

He listens to Devotee.

He listens to Paul Washer.

He listens to different people.

I think he said, but everybody he named, we were like, well, they're Calvinist, so you're already getting a steady diet of tulips.

But I do wonder when I meet people who are Calvinists, if they have really become Calvinist because they are convinced that that's what the Bible says, or if they have simply become part of the popular trend.

Time Magazine did a thing back in the early 2000s where it talked about the growing trends in religion, and one of the top 10 growing trends was new Calvinism.

And so that makes me wonder if so many people are even on my side of this issue, and I say this issue, Calvinism versus Arminianism, because it's somewhat popular now.

It's popular among the conferences, and has it become what's going to happen when it's no longer popular? Yeah, I definitely get that, and if you don't mind, I shared an anecdote from attending a conference, I think, in my email to you talking about some of these ideas, and so I think that's true.

You get a lot of fanboys, right? I know that sounds kind of like a derogatory term.

I'm not trying to bash anybody, but that can be our tendency.

I see that as being a residual effect of the sin nature that still, you know, we struggle with even as believers, but to latch on to a particular person and celebrate them, you know, I think of the lionize them, confer upon them a type of status that maybe that person doesn't even want.

And so the anecdote that I had was from the G3 conference, which again, great conference, sound teaching, you got a collection of guys who are well studied, articulate, it's sound doctrine, you feel really fed, so many good things I could say, not just in the main sessions, but also in the breakout seminars.

But there was one particular memory I have that just never set well with me.

And I had attended a breakout, it was, I think Todd Friel was leading it, and we wrapped up, we had lunch, and people were filtering back into the main auditorium.

I was one of the people who got in earlier and got my seat and was kind of sitting around as people were filtering back in.

And probably about half the people were back in their seats at this time.

Lo and behold, Paul Washer walks in.

And I just happened to glance up and it just in my mind, oh, it's Paul Washer walking by.

Maybe it's the residual social scientist in me since I used to be a psychology professor.

But I just happened to, the next thing I noticed was I looked over at all of the folks sitting there.

And it's like their eyes were all just painted or fixated on Paul Washer as he walked over towards the stage area.

And that's not certainly again, no reflection whatsoever on Paul Washer.

I do not intend that.

I didn't think that at the time.

I just thought, what's wrong with these people? That was my thought.

He's a brilliant teacher.

We love him.

Most people have great respect for him.

That's well-deserved.

But it's not like an angel just walked in.

Why do we do that? It's the tendency of humans to do that.

But I think the more we especially the more people really absorb the doctrines of grace and understand that.

I mean, of all people, right, those who really have a strong orientation foundation in the doctrines of grace should be the least likely people to lionize one particular man, I would think.

And what I saw just was kind of the opposite of that.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

It's like, okay, that guy is a man.

He puts his pants on the same way you do.

But that's the old saying, right? He just puts his pants on the same way everybody else does.

And I've heard, I would say this, you mentioned Paul Washer, I would say of him specifically, I have heard him denounce the celebrity culture.

And that I don't think that he wanted this.

I think that this has sort of been thrusted upon him because he is such an exceptionally good speaker.

And he is such a wonderful communicator.

And he does reach a level in that regard that many of us will not because we're not gifted in the same way.

And that brings up another thing.

And again, this may seem weird to some people.

And I'd like to get your thoughts on this.

Bible conferences, I think, set an unrealistic expectation of what people should expect in the local church.

And here's what I mean.

Voddie Bauckham tells a good story.

He tells a story about how when he was rising in popularity, his church in Texas began to grow because people began to come to his church who weren't coming before.

And he said some people even moved to be close to his church so that they could come to his church, like move to the state of Texas, so they could be close to him.

And then they got there and they realized he's just preaching expositionally through the Bible.

I mean, he's a good communicator, but on Sunday morning, he's doing what the rest of us are doing.

He's just going expositionally through the text.

And the church is just singing songs and preaching the word and having communion.

It's not a show like you get at the conference.

It's not a production.

It's a worship service.

And I do think that people go to a conference and they get sort of filled with celebrity and with event feelings.

And then they come to church and they don't get that same feeling and they're, oh, this is, it's not the same.

And therefore the most important thing, which is the Lord's Day worship becomes relegated to something less than what we're doing twice a year or once a year at these events.

Right.

Yeah.

And again, that takes us back to priorities.

You know, what should a believer, a maturing disciple be doing? Feeding himself daily on the word, being fed weekly, multiple times a week, perhaps by the leaders God has put, his pastor, teacher, and his local church.

And then of course, yeah, supplement, supplement with a conference, supplement with some of these guys who are just enormously gifted and knowledgeable.

I have no problem with that.

It's just, again, the caution that I was wanting to really hone in on was just getting that out of order.

Right.

And again, I think I've, I would say I've participated in this to a certain extent.

And so that's, I'm not trying to diagnose the problem out there.

I have a tendency within myself to look too much maybe to one particular figure.

And I've heard, I've heard so many, and I agree with guys, these guys, I hear so many brothers, especially Reformed Brothers, but not just exclusively, you know, they'll, the, the, the mega church model with satellite campuses, and you have, I've heard it's jokingly referred to as the hologram of the preacher, you know, who's piped out.

Yeah.

And, and, right.

Okay.

So, so there's problems with that.

And we all recognize that it's very easy to recognize.

In my own personal experience, I have over the years, like twice attended, you know, a, either North Point or one of its affiliates, and they have the hologram of Andy Stanley there, you know, this was a long time ago, by the way, I just want to qualify that too.

But, but I, even at the time, and I was, I don't even know if I was saved, this was like 10 years ago, I was like, there's something wrong with this.

There's something wrong with having this like hologram of this guy, he's not even here, this church is supposed to have its own pastors, and they're not, why aren't they on the stage? And so like, so we can rightfully recognize the problem there.

But my question is, do we do something similar in our own way with our own groups of guys, all kinds of problems with Andy Stanley? Okay, we could go, that's not the point of this discussion.

But obviously, some major, major doctrinal issues.

But what about the dynamic of that sort of hologram minister who doesn't know you personally, right? He probably will never know you personally, doesn't know anything about your life.

Do we do something similar, even with teachers who have, you know, very correct doctrine? And I think, if we're being honest, there's a tendency to do that.

Yeah, absolutely.

And because really, I mean, if we wanted to today talk about all the bad Bible conferences, I mean, we could be talking about Benny Hinn, and we could be talking about, you know, Kenneth Copeland, that's not the issue.

I mean, because obviously, we think people should avoid those like the plague.

But we're saying, you know, that there may be a culture that has developed within the good side of theology, the good side of biblical teaching, wherein people are having these events and promoting these events.

And like I said, I'm with you.

I've been to them.

Now, I will say this as a disclaimer.

I have not been to a large Bible conference in many, many years.

I've never been to G3.

I went one time to Dr.

White had a debate with a Roman Catholic on the subject of Kenneth Christian loses salvation.

I did go to that, which was a G3 pre-conference event.

I drove to Atlanta, watched the debate, stayed in a hotel that night, drove back the next day.

I didn't stay for the two-day or three-day G3 event.

So, I've never been to G3.

I know Josh Bice is a great guy, what they're doing there.

But from what I understand, this has become the ministry of his church.

I mean, this is the Praise Mill Baptist Church.

This is what they do now.

Because now they're hosting not only the Atlanta G3, but now they're regional G3s.

There was a regional G3 a couple of weeks ago.

So, like I said, I've never been to them.

I have been to a couple of Ligonier events back when RC was still alive.

I mentioned that earlier that I was at the one that was in Orlando.

Because it's two hours from my house, it was close.

I've never been to a Shepherd's conference.

Now, that I do see as being a little bit different.

Have you ever been to Shepherd's? No, I've only heard of it.

Yeah, that one is specifically for pastors.

I do see some value in where they really minister to ministers for that.

I've heard stories, like I said, I've never been, but I've heard stories where the pastors are cared for, loved on, provided a ton of resources.

I mean, all kinds of things are done for the pastors.

And I can see that having great value in a man's life.

I'm not a good flyer.

I don't fly a lot of places.

So, flying to California, to me, seems about like the most uncomfortable thing I'd ever have to do.

Yeah, I don't like the long flights either.

Well, can I throw out what just one of my...

Yeah, I wanted to go down your list.

So, let's look at your list real quick.

I kind of reproduced them here on my whiteboard, and I left off some stuff because I thought I was being too verbose.

But I'll just throw this out.

Maybe we could talk about this a little bit.

And there's some overlap with what we've already discussed.

But another concern I would have is, there's a tendency for things, again, that should be supplementary, like conferences, like YouTube videos, those types of things.

I worry that they can begin to replace discipleship.

So, not so much necessarily being fed by your pastor teacher locally.

That's one problem.

But also, the men in the church, in the course on the ladies, and what they do with discipleship, that iron sharpening, iron dynamic that the Lord put there on purpose, deliberately.

He created our minds.

He created our psyche.

He knows better than we do how those things work.

I don't think we can approximate or substitute that format for discipleship by these other means.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

And it's interesting that you mentioned YouTube videos, because obviously I produce YouTube videos as well.

And I do this for a couple of different reasons.

But the primary audience that I had in mind when this began was my own church.

And this started as a Bible study during COVID because we couldn't meet together.

And for a few weeks, we did have a time where we weren't meeting.

We very quickly started meeting again.

But we were still, people were so isolated.

And I wanted to give an opportunity to be in their lives.

So, I was reading the Bible every day, having an opportunity to have these conversations every day.

And that's where it became.

First, it was coffee with the Calvinists, then it became conversations with the Calvinists.

But yes, the goal is the local body and the local discipleship.

And people that you've been to the hospital, and you've held their hand, you've prayed with them, you've loved them, you've cared for them.

And that's what a pastor is not just a guy who's coming to you via, you know, via the computer screen or the iPhone screen.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

So, that's one of my concerns is, okay, the pastor teacher, that can be too easily, your local pastor teacher can sort of become marginalized unintentionally, right? Or, you know, heaven forbid, I'm not a pastor, I'm an evangelist, but I, I'm speculating some, but I wonder how often people have thoughts like, wow, I'm used to listening to, I've gotten used to listening to Votie Bauckham and Paul Washer and Steve Lawson.

And now I got to listen to this guy for the next hour.

That's...

And I'm almost being disappointed by that.

And I just don't think that, you know, clearly that's, we're not being thankful for what the Lord has actually put into our lives directly into our personal life in that situation.

It's so funny, because that's what I, that goes back to what I was saying before about unrealistic expectations.

Because the unrealistic expectation is when I come on Sunday morning, I should be getting a Votie Bauckham.

I should be getting a Steve Lawson and a Keith Foskey or Rich Suplita or, you know, whoever it is, is that they're not, they're not what, they're not that national level speaker, therefore they're not good enough, or, and I'm not saying that, yeah, I'm certainly not complaining.

My people are very gracious.

Our church is very gracious to me.

I've never had anyone treat me that way, but I could see that being the case.

I could see that being the case where people are like, why do I need this guy? I got, I got world-class, you know, whatever.

At my fingertips, right? Yeah, absolutely.

I can listen to any book of the Bible at any point that I want to, you know, like my favorite preacher, I tell people all the time, my favorite preacher is a guy by the name of Brian Boardman.

Have you ever heard of him? I have not.

He is from Nevada.

Well, I mean, his church is in Nevada, Grace Community Church in Minden, Nevada.

A little shout out to Brian.

Brian is my friend on Facebook.

I have interviewed him on the show.

My wife actually got him to be a guest for me because she knew he was my favorite, but this is a guy that he's not a, when I say he's not a big name, I mean, he's known fairly well within reform circles, but he's not, he's not at the national level or anything, but I would rather sit and listen to him than John MacArthur.

And I don't say that to diminish John MacArthur.

I'm just saying, this is a man who has truly spoken into my life.

And he's a guy who is, he's just a pastor.

He's just a day in, day out pastor.

And years ago, I came across a series that he did, and it really was helpful to me.

And I would say I've listened to more sermons by him than anybody that ever, anybody else ever.

And I, the way that I look at Brian is how I hope folks would, folks in my own church would be, you know, would be thankful for, because I feel like he ministers to me.

As I said, pastors need a pastor.

Pastors do need people that they listen to.

And so I, anyway, you know, I hope that, and I know I went off the topic there for a minute, but, but yes, being discipled in your own church is so valuable.

All right.

And that's clearly what the Lord has given us the local body for.

Okay.

Another point, and I, and again, I'm just tossing this out.

I mean, we, maybe we disagree about this.

I don't know.

We'll find out.

But I think there can be a tendency.

This doesn't, and so maybe this is not even just about conferences, Bible conferences.

Man, this could be a landmine.

I got to be careful with how I say this.

Say it brother, we'll take it.

It perhaps is an issue with the modern reform movement, a little more broadly speaking.

And the tendency to, the way I thought of it, the tendency to flatten the gospel into an intellectual exercise.

I, okay.

I know it sounds really bad.

I'm not, I'm not trying to criticize people that I understand full well that the modern evangelical church, and I agree a hundred percent, they've taken this emotional stuff, this garbage, this fluff and ran with it.

And one of my faith, one of the reasons why I lean so strongly to the reform camp is the good, solid intellectual foundation.

The, the fleshing out the, the going deeper into these issues.

And I love it.

I'm all for that.

I, I don't think we want it to become 100% that though.

And then that's what I mean by flattening the gospel.

It, it, it can almost seem this again, and this is just me, one person, my own subjective impressions.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm, I'm biased.

Maybe I'm being too biased here, but I can, sometimes it seems like I'm seeing sort of a flattening of the gospel into more of an intellectual exercise.

Well, I would definitely agree.

I think that, well, let me give you my perspective on that.

Cause I, I, I agree with you that that is a danger and I've seen that danger, especially though.

And I, I'm not even sure it's, it's, it's good that you mentioned, it's not just the conferences.

Cause I see that more online with reformed groups.

Like I'm a part of several reformed groups online on Facebook and stuff.

And I see people posting things.

A couple of weeks ago, I did a show on prayer where a lady had prayed.

I posted this, you might've seen it.

It was on my Facebook page.

A lady had prayed for her husband for 60 years, and he finally got saved.

They, they'd been married for 67 years and they were baptizing took two men to baptize him because he was so frail.

There was two men in the baptistry having to lay him down into the water because he was so, you know, his body was so old, but yet he, but by God's grace saved at, you know, at 90 years old.

And I posted, I said, what a wonderful thing.

What a wonderful, beautiful testimony to God's amazing grace and to the faithfulness of a wife who prays for her husband for 60, 60 years.

And most of the people were, you know, amen.

Good.

But, but one guy, and there's always the one guy, one guy, her prayers didn't do anything.

That was God's sovereign election.

And that was the God had determined before in prayer doesn't change God's mind.

And it just had to, had to have this freak out intellectual Calvinist moment.

And I'm like, dude, go back and get in your cage.

Stop being that guy.

Nobody wants that guy.

I, you know, I've known you for 10 seconds.

I haven't liked any of them, you know, nobody wants that.

And, and, and that's the part that kills me is, is we believe in divine election.

And yet we believe that God uses the means, even the means of a praying wife who has, who has ministered to her husband all of these years as one of the ways, one of the means of bringing him to faith.

And so we can praise God for his election and we can praise God for the use of his wife.

And we can do so without violating our Calvinistic intellectual considerations.

And, you know, I, I responded to him online and then I got hit with a, with a book.

He wrote a book and sent, and I'm like, I'm like, I'm not doing homework for you.

I don't even.

So yeah, that kills me.

I think Rich, I think you're right.

I think that we have people get so like, like there's a big, you may know this, you may not.

There's a big phrase out there and it's become a joke now, but the big phrase is, is this reformed? And the idea is because it will, no matter what it is, it'll, it'll, it'll, it'll be a picture of something.

Is this reformed? Is this reformed? Like the big thing out there is whether or not pictures of Jesus violate the second commandment.

Okay.

If you, if you don't believe that, then you're not reformed.

If, if you're not baptizing infants, then you're not reformed.

A guy argued the other day, a guy I really respect, and I love this man.

I had him on the program before, but I disagree here.

He argued that R.C.

Sproul wasn't reformed because R.C.

Sproul's church was not part of a Presbytery, but was an independent Presbyterian church.

They, they weren't part of a larger Presbytery.

And he said, if you're not part of a larger Presbytery, you're not reformed.

So R.C.

Sproul is not reformed.

I'm like, dude, we, you, everything becomes this litmus test where you just keep, it just keeps layers after layers, after layers.

You know, we kicked John Piper out very early, they kicked out MacArthur, you know, we kicked out everybody.

These people are just not, they're just not good enough to be reformed, to be, you know, and I understand that words matter.

And I understand that definitions matter, but yeah, we are, we're the worst.

Yeah.

I think maybe I met that guy or somebody very much like him and another related phenomenon.

I'm sure you've seen this too, is where in these comments sections and replies, uh, people start sending you paragraph after paragraph books, stuff that doctrinal points that you agree with, but, but for somehow like, you know, whatever they're going to go on to say, it's like, that's something you agree with a hundred percent.

You've never contradicted that you've all, you've said the same types of things yourself and they feel a need to come out and come and just like, you know, post that all over your kind of hijack the response section with that.

Yeah.

But yeah, it gets off topic.

Um, so yeah, I think that, you know, we all joke about the cage stage, but a lot of people don't get out of it or they periodically put themselves back into it and back into the cage.

Let me ask you this, Keith, what about, um, okay.

So as an evangelist, again, I'm revealing my, my biases here.

No, I like it.

I've kind of felt like I'm being interviewed.

So it's kind of cool.

It's working.

Sorry.

I don't mean to do that.

No, no, no.

I'm glad this is again, conversations with a Calvinist.

I'm loving it.

So, so yeah, absolutely.

Okay.

So this, and this will be kind of like my last, uh, bullet that I really was hoping we could discuss and then whatever you want to take, whatever direction, whatever follow up or flushing out you want to do after that is fine.

But, um, okay.

Another concern is just the, um, again, my bias as an evangelist, maybe there's enough, not enough translation of what people are learning in conferences, uh, that carries over into, to maintaining our, our, our priority of, of reaching a lost world with the gospel, like literally carrying it out and deliberately engaging unbelievers in spiritual conversations, uh, proclaiming Christ, whether that's on the street corner or one-to-one preaching Christ to a lost world.

I, I it's, it's kind of still, still to me, like even in the reform circles, and I know some of these guys very well, uh, who are the evangelists in that camp and respect them greatly.

But I, I think that we kind of, we evangelists, um, get this, you know, you're, you're crazy or you're weird uncle type of, uh, label.

And, and it's, it's hard to penetrate that.

And I don't see, it seems like so much of what happens at conferences is so focused on what we're doing there inside the walls that we virtually forget, uh, going outside of the walls.

I, first of all, I want to say a hundred percent agree.

And, and, and I'm glad this is where we're going to camp for a little while, because this, this is a good place to end, because I do think that your original post and then your subsequent comments, I remember reading sort of was, I could tell that the biggest concern you have is not that people are going and joining in conferences, but that the conference that the, the zeal to go and be filled is not commensurate with the zeal to go and fill others or go in and proclaim the gospel.

And, and, and that, yeah, the buck should not stop with us.

It should continue on.

And, um, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to say something that my listeners are going to, they're going to drop their jaws to the table because I'm going to, I'm actually going to, I'm going to bring up somebody and not in a bad way.

I'm going to bring up Stephen Furtick.

Now I am no fan of Stephen Furtick.

I've talked about him, even our, in our Academy, uh, we, um, one of my classes, I have a video clip of him that I show because we talk about different type of preaching.

And I use him as a bad example.

I hate to say it, but it just, you know, there are some things that he has said and done that I definitely disagree with.

But one of the things that he said, and I disagree with what he said, but I get what he was saying to an extent.

And, and, and again, please people don't, don't burn down the podcast for this, uh, for, again, I'm not, I, Stephen Furtick is, is not my guy, but he, he was talking about how, um, and he did use a very ugly term.

He said, he said, if you want to learn theology, he said, you're a bunch of fat, lazy Christians, uh, you know, and that's bad.

I don't agree with that at all.

But if you listen to the context of what he was saying is he was saying, there are a lot of people who just want to fill up on theology, but it never goes anywhere.

And you basically become a bloated, uh, theologian that you, you're this sort of big headed person and you never talked to anybody, but you never share the gospel.

What good is it if you know all of the mysteries of the, of the word of God, but you've never ever told anybody about Jesus.

I will take a simple layman who knows the gospel over a theologian who won't, who, who, who knows everything.

If the simple layman is willing to share the gospel with others.

And that's the thing is we, we bloat ourselves up and we get into arguments online, not when some loving reaching out to people, but just, we want to prove our point, but we're not on the street corners evangelizing.

And that's where I think this is where I respect you so much, because I see what you're doing out there.

And you're out there, you're standing on a box proclaiming the gospel as people walk by you're handing tracks, you're doing these things and, and where all these conferences, there are certainly many more people going to conferences than there are standing on the box proclaiming the gospel.

Absolutely.

And that's, that's gotta be not what the Lord really had in mind, I would think.

And I'm not saying everybody needs to be standing on the street corner, even men of the church, even gifted men, knowledgeable men, not everyone needs to be out on the street corner, but here I would certainly say that more need to be out there than actually are out there.

Amen.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so there is a call for that.

I don't want to give a negative example here, so I'll give a positive one going back to R.C.

Sproul.

And, and I know from, I guess it's secondhand information that he would, would routinely make it a point to go out to the local abortuary there in Orlando, even to the later parts of his life, as I understand it.

Yeah, he was riding, riding the scooter up there.

He had his little, his little, his little motorized cart and he would, it was John Barrows that he would sit with.

Yeah.

There's pictures of them together.

And just, I mean, how, what an amazing example that is.

I mean, I think probably everybody that listens to your podcast has benefited enormously in one way or the other in sitting under Dr.

Sproul's teaching, but this man who could just, he could, he could have easily just remained the guy who flew around place to place.

They roll out the red carpet, you know, you get great dinners and kind of the celebrity speaker, but, but he over against that, he, he always prioritized being out there available to lost people available to, to, to women who are, you know, contemplating murdering their babies to, to talk to, to pray with, to reach out to them with the gospel.

And I would just like, again, I'm biased, but man, I would like to see just a whole lot more of that type of thing.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Several years ago, there was a Bible conference in Milton, Florida, where it was, it's where I met Tony Miano and I met Bobby McCreary, who I know is a friend of yours and, and a few other guys, it was an open air preaching conference.

And we had the opportunity to go with the open air preachers to the abortuary and to the university and to the boardwalk.

That was the three places that the, the, the conference, the conference attendees, because I was there with my son, we got to go with them and watch what they did.

That was so educational because, you know, that to me was, it was like, you know, for, for somebody who's never done it to go out by themselves, or even two people in a church, they say, okay, we want to go do it, but we've never done it, having somebody walk out there with them.

And actually, you know, maybe one day you and I should do that.

Maybe we should have an open air conference here in Jacksonville, or maybe up in Athens, you know, we could do, we can have a conference because that was so beneficial for having men who wanted to do it, but didn't know how, or they didn't, they'd never done it, or they, they, they, they didn't feel like they had the, you know, the courage to go and do it.

And, and, and, and that was, that was very encouraging.

And, and, and that's, that, that goes back to the ministry of the local church.

I would say, one of the things that the local church should be doing is, you know, I don't know if the local churches promote conferences, I'm sure some of them do, but we should also be promoting the, opportunities for people to learn how to evangelize, to learn how to go out, because it's not something that automatically comes easily to people, how to, even how to hand out tracts and how to be able to engage with people in questions.

I know that, you know, the more that I go out, the more I become comfortable doing it.

Yeah.

And even with me, and, you know, this is something I've been doing for quite a while now, it's my primary calling, there, there remains that discomfort.

It, it's hard.

It's, it's jumping into a gospel conversation with a stranger is always kind of like jumping in the cold pool, you know, it is a little shock at first, but then you, you get in there and you start moving around and, you know, you typically, you end up really enjoying that interaction.

And so I would say, yeah, one of the things that I would like to see translational from conferences is, is more of that type of thing, equipping, not just with knowledge, not just with correct theology.

Absolutely.

Those are indispensable, but translational.

Let's really talk about not just in theory, but like how and put people in contact with others in their local area.

And, and, you know, start a, a group at your church, your local body, find a guy who maybe has some training, some experience in that area, and really devote ourselves to taking that lead to get, to get the gospel out of the four walls of the church.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that should be the, the desire of all of us, not just to, to go and enjoy conferences or to come to the church and enjoy worship, but to take what we get, whether it's at a conference, whether it's in the local church, but take that into the world.

And every Sunday, when I give the benediction of our church, it always includes some form of this phrase.

And that is, let us take what we have learned and let us go and share the gospel with everyone that we meet.

That's our, that's our goal is that is to, is to become, you know, we've come, we've gathered for worship.

Let us now scatter to evangelize.

Amen.

And that's, that is the Book of Acts model.

You ever seen one of those old school Baptist churches that used to, they would put a sign in their parking lot or maybe on the, the rear exit.

It says, you're now entering the mission, Phil.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And it always, and it always gets me.

And I know people who say this aren't saying it in a negative way, but when somebody comes up to me and says, you know, I've been wanting to invite my friend to church so that they could hear the gospel.

And I say, no, no, share the gospel with them as you're inviting them to church or, you know, you don't have, they don't have to come here to hear it.

They can hear it from you because you are God's instrument in their life.

You are the evangelist that God has placed in their life to share the gospel with them.

Amen.

Amen.

Yeah.

Well, brother, I think this is a good place for us to close.

Did you have anything else that you wanted to, to mention in regard to the, to the conferences? I certainly don't want to cut us off.

I think I hit all my major points and I think probably stepped on enough toes for one day, certainly not my intention, but you know, Hey, this is stuff I'm taking to heart too.

And I understand, man, we're, we're all, we, we tend to get a little stray one direction or the other.

I'm certainly not trying to make anybody feel guilty or bad, just sort of a reminder to, to just you know, we want to be vigilant and make sure that we're really maintaining a, a balanced type of discipleship.

Amen.

Amen.

Also, if anyone wants to support you as a, as a, as a local evangelist, I would say a missionary in your area, a local evangelist missionary, how can people contact you? I know that there's Ask a, or Ask a Former Atheist.

So our website is just askaformeratheist.com.

You just Google Ask a Former Atheist will be the top hit.

My email, I can, I don't, I feel comfortable putting my email out there on your podcast.

It's RSupplita.

So R-S-U-P-L-I-T-A at gmail.com.

So that would work too.

People want more information or just have questions for me, ideas they want to run past me.

Feel free to reach out.

Perfect.

Perfect.

All right, brother Rich.

Well, I want to thank you again for being on the show now for your, I guess this is your third time being on the show.

So thank you for being a reoccurring guest on the show and for coming with a great topic today.

All right, brother.

God bless you.

God bless you.

And I want to thank you listener for being with us.

Thank you for listening to today's show.

If you have a question or a topic that you'd like for me to address on a future episode, please send me an email at calvinispodcast at gmail.com.

And if you would like to see all of our episodes in one place, you can go to calvinispodcast.com.

Thank you for listening to conversations with the Calvinist.

My name is Keith Foskey and I've been your Calvinist.

May God bless you.