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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 24th day of August 2015.
And there's no better way to start off the beginning than with the end, as far as I'm concerned, the end of the world or the end of things as we know it. And today we are going to be discussing post-millennialism and especially, and in particular, the theonomic reconstructionist variety of post-millennialism.
This is the final day of our eschatology marathon or our ten times marathon. Last week we addressed amillennialism on Monday. We addressed pre-tribulational premillennialism on Tuesday. We addressed historic premillennialism on Wednesday.
We addressed the pre-wrath rapture version of eschatology on Thursday. On Friday we began a series, a two-part series, on post-millennialism and we were addressing more of the futurist view in part one of that discussion.
In part two we discussed more of the preterist view or the partial preterist view of post-millennialism. And that will have some commonality with our guest today. Today we are discussing the theonomic and reconstructionist understanding of post-millennialism and we have two guests to do that.
The first is my dear friend of many years, Pastor John M. Otis, who is the author of Preaching and the Victory of the Gospel. He's also founder of Triumphant Publications and the author of many other books.
And the second guest at the top of the second hour will be Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona, who is also the founder and director of Apologia Radio and Apologia Television, which is going to be launching a new television series in the very near future if it hasn't happened already, on the National Religious Broadcasters Network.
But first of all, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, my dear friend, John Otis.
It's always good to be with you, Chris. I don't know what's going to happen next.
Well, it couldn't be according to your eschatology. And I want to thank you also for arranging that wonderful interview that I had with Hannah Overton, which is now archived on the Iron Sharpens Iron website for any of you to hear.
Hannah Overton, the Christian woman who was wrongly and falsely accused and convicted of capital murder after the accidental death of her foster son, Andrew, and who, thanks be to God and His mercy and grace, was exonerated of all charges and freed from prison after seven years of incarceration.
And you could go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com and hear that program. And John Otis was the key person involved in introducing me to Hannah years ago, actually, when we started doing programs on her case.
And it was just a joy to finally interview her in person as a free woman. But thank you for that, John. You bet. And we are discussing, again, post-millennialism, but a different stripe than we addressed last Friday.
First of all, give us your overview of post-millennialism before we get into specifically the theonomic and reconstructionist aspect.
Of your view. Unfortunately, I was not at John Jefferson Davis on Friday, correct? That's.
Right. That was for the first hour. John Jefferson Davis had more of a futurist understanding of the post-millennial position. And the second hour, Fred Pugh, who is actually a Reformed Baptist and post-millennialist, had more of the partial preterist view, although they had a lot in common to say.
And neither one are theonomists.
Okay. Well, generally speaking, when we think of post-millennialism, the biblical view in heaven, basically, every amillennialist, millennial kingdom, a period of time, not limited to only the period of time stretching forward from the apostles to the end of the world, whenever that will come, according to the scriptures, Jesus said, of that day and that hour, no man knows, not even he and his humanity knows of that hour, but the Father.
But the millennial reign, Jesus putting down all of his enemies under his foot in conformity with Psalm 110, which the apostle Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost. That passage, Psalm 110, is the most quoted psalm in the New Testament.
Peter said, on the day of Pentecost, what they heard and saw in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised his disciples, he says, is the evidence that, as David said, that Jesus, in terms of post-millennialism, the real kingdom is before the second coming.
There will be a genuine, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ at the end of the world. But it will be, he will come back to a world that has been conquered, where his enemies have been put, a general post-millennialism.
Now, it's interesting that you did use a term, the second coming, which I use and which amillennialists use and even most premillennialists use, but as a partial preterist. I've spoken with some partial preterists who object to the term second coming because it's not in the Scriptures and because there were previous comings to his final coming.
Like, for instance, the Christ's coming in judgment over Jerusalem at the destruction of the temple in A .D. 70. Do you consider that a coming of Christ?
Yes. You know, I believe a little bit of, to that coming, at the end of the world, the world will be rejuvenated. All the dead will be raised, according to Matthew 25, to the second coming. There shouldn't be any problem with this culminating.
It does have a very significant coming. I don't have any problem with that world.
You don't have any problem with it because I'm assuming that the second coming, as well as the first, are the only times that Christ came to this earth physically, bodily, and visibly to all.
Correct. Correct.
Okay. Yeah, that's what I was trying to communicate to my friend, who is also a theonomist and a partial preterist, but he totally rejected the use of the term. I'm not sure why. And he was not a hyper-preterist.
But let me, since we brought up preterism, and I did have Fred Pugh more briefly define it because that wasn't his main focus last Friday, but if you could also give our listeners a definition of preterism and partial preterism.
Well, partial preterism and hyper-preterism reject...
Yeah, and what makes everything confusing with regard to that term is that both partial preterists and hyper-preterists often describe themselves simply as preterists. Correct?
Um...
Yeah, well, I have heard and read other partial preterists and post-millennialists just describing it as a preterist view. But now, what do you believe, to repeat yourself, or perhaps maybe more fully explain, what do you believe are the only things left to be fulfilled in biblical prophecy?
Well, there is... I mean, and that is very...
Okay. In fact, I'm going to repeat our email address in case anybody listening would like to join us on the air with a question for John Otis about post-millennialism, about theonomy, about reconstructionism, about partial preterism, or about anything involving the end times, last days, eschatology, etc.
Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.
Okay. Psalm 110, beginning at verse 1, says to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool. The Lord will stretch forth thy strong scepter from Zion, saying, Rule in the midst of thy people, we'll volunteer for thee.
What Jesus is doing, he is presently reigning, he is stretching forth his strong scepter. A scepter is a rule in the midst of thy people. Thy people will volunteer freely in the day that Peter, the apostle, said, Jesus is reigning, is that he's poured forth his spirit.
The apostles, a clear tongue, they shared the gospel. There's a great sermon. It says, brethren, he says, what shall we do? It says, they were pierced to the heart. Peter says, repent. Be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
That day, 3 ,000 people, no one can ever come to Christ. Jesus stretched forth his scepter, and 3 ,000 people came to. Some of his enemies have been put under his feet. Now, that is 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
We'll pick up here. For since by a man came death, by a man came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order, Christ the firstfruits.
After that, those who are Christ's at his coming. Then comes the end, when he delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when he has abolished all, and all his enemies under his feet will be abolished.
All things in subjection under his feet is accepted. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son also will be subjected to the one who subjected all things to him. Now, the importance. If I were just to pick out one passage that definitively rules out all forms of premillennialism, it's this passage right here.
Just reign until he has abolished. It definitively takes place. He's not going to come back under his feet. He's put all his enemies. So until all his enemies necessarily mean. Some people have a misconception of postmillennialism, thinking that it says that every single human being, for example, which is a messianic passage there in Isaiah 11.
For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. The gospel will have been so pervasive, as Hebrews 8 says, everybody will turn to their neighbor and they will know the Lord.
It will be so pervasive. Now, that doesn't mean that Satan is still not operative. In the nations, Jesus' reign, the spiritual reign, the preaching of the gospel, the divine weapons of warfare, Satan's kingdom is assaulted and overcome.
What has not yet transpired is all the nations have not yet bowed their knees to King Jesus. We're talking about, we don't know how many.
So you would disagree with a previous guest that we had who was a premillennialist who made the claim in opposition to postmillennialism that it basically is teaching a straight upward arrow of progression in the future, that things just progressively and constantly get better and better and better.
You don't believe that?
What we see in the Bible, downward periods of persecution. Ascending. But when you look overall...
Now, I know that the amillennialists do not have as optimistic a view of things that will take place here on this earth during the millennium. But do you believe that, like most amillennialists do, do you believe that we are in the millennium or at least the beginning of the millennium now?
For instance, most amillennialists believe it began with the work of Christ on Calvary and the gospel spreading throughout the nations.
I would agree with that. You know, in many respects, with a few minor differences, the commission will be a change. That's why we ought to be optimistic. These are the promises, scriptural promises, that must take place.
When you do a whole study, it is one of victory. It's not one of defeat. A lot of people quote verse 18. Verse 18 says Jesus came in 19 and 20. The nations are going to be discipled. It's because of verse 18.
Jesus says, I have all the authority. And I've said this to people. If you have all the power in the universe, who's going to stop you? Nobody. And that is very consistent with Daniel chapter 7. In fact, let me just read that because I think Daniel chapter 7.
While you're looking for that, I'm going to repeat our email address. It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. If you have a question for our guest, John Otis, on post-millennialism and theonomy, please give us your first name, city and state, and country if outside the U .S.
Okay, I have Daniel 7, 13. I kept looking in the night vision. The clouds of heaven, one like a son of man, was coming up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And all the peoples, nations, and men might serve him.
His dominion is an everlasting, not pass away. In distinction from my premillennial brethren, words are very important. It says he came up to the Ancient of Days. This is an ascension. This is not a descending.
This is an ascension. Dominion, power. That passage is very consistent. 15. In this regard, no one can stop you. By the way, can we pick up on the William Kalper or Cooper sermon.
And whatever else you wanted to bring up before? Could you bring that up after the break. Because we have to go to a break right now.
All right, sure will.
All right, great. Well, we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for John Otis on post-millennialism and theonomy after these messages, so don't go away.
Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.
Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.
You need to read.
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Tired of bop store Christianity? Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching?
Perhaps you've begun to think that in-depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island. Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.
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And we are speaking with John Otis on Post-Millennialism and on Theonomy and Reconstructionism. And before the break, John, you had mentioned a sermon by William Cowper, but you also wanted to bring up some scriptural texts as well.
Well, this sermon may be a good Theonomy. In 1740, William Cowper, it's not Cowper, but Cowper?
Right.
William Cowper in 1740 preached a sermon before the joint. In fact, he was invited to do this. His sermon title, The Honors of Christ Demanded in His Text, was Psalm 2, 10 -12. And here's what Psalm 2, 10 -12 says,.
Be wise, therefore, all you kings, be instructed, you judges of the earth, serve the Lord with fear, rejoice with trembling, kiss the Son lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little.
Find this on the Internet. Samuel Cowper will become a famous preacher during the War of America. In this, he addresses a great godly man. During his first preaching tour throughout New England, when Whitefield came to Boston, Jonathan Belcher, the governor of Massachusetts, escorted him around to all of his preaching engagements in the governor's care.
The Bible, therefore, which is the great statute book of heaven, must be consulted by the rulers of a people, and they must frame their administration by the general laws there laid down. And then he goes on to say,.
As they rule by Christ, so are they obliged to rule for Him, therefore to protect and encourage the practice of His holy religion, to guard and defend God's sacred name, day, Sunday, and institutions from the insults of those who openly profane and trample upon them, and to restrain and punish those vices and immoralities which are as contrary to the laws of Christ as they are to the welfare of societies, for the very end purpose of their office is the punishment of evildoers and the praise of them that do well.
And then he says,. In a word, they, the rulers, should openly profess the religion of Christ, publicly espouse His cause, zealously promote it as far as ever their authority and influence will reach, and should strenuously set themselves against everything that is of Massachusetts, Chris.
Massachusetts 17.
And obviously you're talking about, for those of you who love some of the hymns by William Cooper, that's a different William Cooper from England.
And he spelled his name Kalper, but actually it was pronounced Cooper. But anyway, if you could continue what you were saying.
Well, it's just that, and then one of the other greats of that time, he lived to preach the sermon in war. His sermon title was this. This was a sermon preached in the mediatorial kingdom. He also preached in that sermon, he is thoroughly, but we're talking about this.
Yeah, and define theonomy again. I know you gave a very limited definition of it, but if you could define theonomy and distinguish it between that and Reconstructionism.
Well, he wrote a book called He Says Autonomy. Theonomy is, we will amend obedience, only legislate the issue.
Exactly.
But you know, you see.
Right, but obviously other post-millennialists object to that.
So, now, in chapter 19 of the Westminster Confession, it distinguishes between three parts of God's laws. The moral law of God, the ceremonial law, and the judicial law. In section 3, besides this law, commonly called moral law of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits, partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws are now abrogated under the New Testament.
Then section 4 reads,. To them also as a body politic He gave sundry judicial laws, which expire together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now further than the general equity required, and that not only in regard to the matter contained, but also in respect to the authority of God, the Creator, who gave it, neither does Christ and the gospel in any way dissolve, but much more strengthen this obligation.
And interestingly, God gave, for the sake that I didn't come to destroy the law. So, the key there...
Yeah, you have people who adhere to the Westminster and people who adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, which is nearly a duplicate of that, who love God's law, and they believe that the Decalogue is a perpetual law that will forever be God's law, ruling over the people of this earth, and that obviously we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone and Christ alone, but we still have God's law to keep, although we can never do it perfectly, which reminds us of our sin and our inability to achieve salvation on our own, other than through the blood of Christ.
But the... Obviously, the Presbyterians and the Baptists, who are Reformed and yet not theonomic, believe that the moral law is what carries through to the New Covenant, and the specific civil law and penal codes of the Old Covenant are not to be applied today, because of the nation of Israel not existing right now, as far as the one that had a covenant with God and had a theonomic government or a theocracy in the Old Covenant.
Go ahead.
Yeah, well, here's the thing. The key is, what did the Westminster delegates mean by that key phrase that that law, that judicial law, is not binding except... Now, what's interesting is, if you look at the delegates, they discuss what they mean by general equity.
For example, one of the best... They need to read Theonomy and the Westminster, and he has done in the delegates to the... Let me just read the introduction. Fuller says,.
He says,.
Samuel Rutherford argues that the capital punishments for crimes against the moral law, i .e. idolatry, were not just judicial laws at all, but moral. George Gillespie on judicial law punished a moral crime.
It was binding, even though still judicial. The two views lead to identical results, the death penalty for idolatry, sodomy, bestiality. Theonomists, he says, have generally used the same terminology as Gillespie, dividing the judicial laws...
By general equity, what... Greg Bonce, he says, for example, you have a specific example... Of how to apply the Ten Commandments. For example, on the ground, what Greg Bonce... The general principle in Israel was a nation...
For example, by railing around your rooftop, we may not... Your houses are... If you did, why do you put a railing? Why are you in your swimming pool? Someone's falling in your pool. And therefore, he says, general principle...
The accusation constantly comes up that theonomists are really trying to establish a Christian version of Sharia law in the future, anyway. That is, they are viewed as having as a goal in the future that the church will establish Sharia law only, obviously, with specifically the commandments of God in the Old Testament and new.
If you could respond to that.
Well, I read a brief of Jesus and his law. Did he advocate any law? Matthew 5 said, your teaching... And they always try to pit Jesus against the Mosaic Law. If they ever could find Jesus saying something against the Mosaic Law, they would call him a false prophet.
They would have been right. But he said, no, I came to fulfill the law. And he said, anybody teaching anything lesser than this shall be considered less of the kingdom of heaven. So, and then it's interesting...
For example, to Matthew 15, Jesus himself... That's a great passage of Jesus bringing forward the penal sanctions of the Mosaic Law into the New Testament era. Pharisees had accused Jesus, why don't you teach your apostles to observe the tradition of the elders and washing their hands?
And Jesus says, let me ask you a question. Why do you negate the law of God for the sake of your traditions? And then he quotes the law about cursing your father and mother. Jesus in Matthew 15 says, he who curses his father and mother ought to be put to death.
Right there, Jesus is sanctioning the penal sanction of the Mosaic Legislation and used it in his argument against the Pharisees. And then he got all over the Pharisees. He says, not only that, you are...
So in other words, you believe that the penal codes of Old Covenant Israel will be established and should be established in the Millennial Kingdom through the Church, whereby homosexuals and adulterers and so on will be executed.
Not the Church. Let me put it this way. The Church has no... In a coming time, Christian... We have to ask ourselves, God says, should murderers be... God says, always come down to Christ. It's either theonomy or autonomy.
We have to ask ourselves, why would we not want to enact the penal sanctions if God is the one who authorized these laws?
Couldn't you say the same thing about the ceremonial law, the dietary laws, and all the other things? If God is the one who ordained those laws in the Old Covenant, couldn't you make the argument that they should be applied in the new as well because God designed them?
No. There is a major distinction between the ceremonial laws. Sacrifice... They were abrogated. But the writers of the Confession did not say that about the judicial law. They no longer continue except the general principle.
And that's what we're saying. The general principle still holds forward.
So, in other words, you're saying that although the church is not going to be carrying out the penal code, the governments that will be in the Millennium are going to be supported by the church and applauded by the church for doing so.
Yes, I would say that. Is that a premise, Colin, to... People didn't have a problem. They didn't have a problem with... It's only because... It's only within the last century that the church has become...
What does God's word say? What does His law say?
Well, John, actually, we have to go right now, but please quickly give your website for Triumph and Publications. Please give your website for Triumph and Publications because we're out of time, brother.
Yes. My publishing website with videos for free of church, kingdom, and eschatology where I go into detail post-millennial eschatology and 17 lectures. Just go to my website for free.
All right, great. Well, we look forward to having you back, brother, and thank you so much for being our guest today on Our Intrepid Zion.
Thank you, Chris.
All right, God bless you. We're going to go to a break right now, so please email us your questions, and we'll be right back, so don't go away.
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Tired of box store Christianity? Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching?
And if you've just tuned us in, this is part two of our two-hour interview today on Theonomic Postmillennialism, also known as Reconstructionism. And we had for the first hour John Otis, author of Preaching the Victory of the Gospel and founder of Triumphant Publications.
And now we begin our second hour with Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona. And he's also the founder of Apologia Radio and Apologia TV. And we're going to hear more about the launching of his new television program on the National Religious Broadcasters Network.
But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharp as Iron, Jeff Durbin.
What's up, Chris? Thanks for having me back, brother.
Hey, thanks for being on the program. And let's hear more about Apologia TV and the NRB television network.
Well, God's been really, really good to us this past year. The Apologia Radio itself, as a podcast, has doubled in its listenership over the last couple of months. And that's actually a pretty large increase.
We just opened our studio just a few months ago. God gave us the ability to have our own studio and so we can produce our own podcast from here and also our own television program and just a bunch of other stuff we can do as well.
But he gave us the ability to do it. It's only been, gosh, it seems like maybe three months or so. And we have signed a contract. We are officially scheduled to be on the NRB network nationwide in October twice a week.
I believe Thursday and Saturday are the days that we're going to be on.
Well, I guess I should consider myself a prophet because, as you know, I left a lengthy voicemail message for you after the first time seeing the broadcast you did with Dr. James R. White, our mutual friend at Alpha Omega Ministries, and also Michael Brown when you were doing a response to the Supreme Court decision legalizing same-sex marriage.
And I told you, this has got to be on NRB. You did such a phenomenal job, not only because of the content, but because of the graphics, the camera work, everything about the program was more professional than the majority of things I've seen on television, perhaps especially Christian television.
Well, I'm really glad to hear you say that and grateful. And a lot of that has to go, of course, to God's unique gifting in Marcus Pittman. He moved out here, gosh, what was it, Marcus, what was that, April?
April. Marcus moved out here in April. I'm in our studio right now. He's nodding through the glass. April, he moved out here, and since then we've just been able to change the quality of what we do, which we want to do everything for the glory of God, and we want to make sure the media that we're putting out is on par and even better than what the world puts out.
And so we're doing our best with, at the time, limited resources, but we're just excited about what God is going to continue to do as we're able to even get better technology and things like that. But that blessed me, because Dr. White's a gift.
He's a friend, and he's one of my heroes of the faith, and Dr. Brown is a gift, and I love those men dearly, and being able to do that was something we really thought was important, and we got a lot of really great feedback, just like yours.
And I wasn't able to get back to you when you sent that message to me. I was in Kauai, actually. We're trying to do a church plant right now in Kauai, so I wasn't able to call you back to let you know, hey, David, we're already on.
That's quite all right. And obviously, I have a lot to go, or a long way to go, before I match any kind of professional quality as far as the technical aspect of my show, but that is something that I hope to eventually achieve as well.
Right now, we have a very humble situation here in the studio, but God willing, that will improve, and we already have many generous people who want to see that happen.
What you have, though, is you have a quality product. It's okay if the audio is a little scratchy. We've been through all those same things.
Well, apparently, the people hearing the program hear me a lot better than you are hearing me right now for some reason, so I don't know why that is. That's a typical complaint of the phone guests that I come through a little scratchy, but it's not that way on the recordings or the broadcast for some reason.
I don't know. We are going to have a professional studio technician go over this with a fine-tooth comb, but for those of our listeners who missed your last visit with us, if you could go over a brief description of Apology at Church.
Absolutely. Apology at Church is a new-ish church plant in Tempe, Arizona. We planted about five and a half years ago, going on six years actually now, and we planted out of a drug and alcohol rehabilitation center.
I was a pastor at a church in Phoenix, and I was also a pastor of the chaplain at the hospital, and so many people were coming to Christ at this hospital that it became really, really clear to us that God was calling us to have a unique place to be able to shepherd them and care for them because we were having a difficult time placing some of these people with these unique struggles and what do I do with them?
And so it became clear. I fought against God a bunch. I had no plans ever of planting a church. I had no vision of that, no thought to do that ever, and so I really kind of fought against God for a while, and I had some really great men of God that spoke into my life that know me, that know my giftings, that know my own shortcomings.
They spoke into my life, seminary professors, pastors, and they just basically all told me, Jeff, God's calling you to do this, and you need to go or you're in sin. And so the elders of the church that I was at laid hands on me, and I resigned from my position as pastor at the church I was at and to go and do this work.
We started at zero. We started really with the church I was at couldn't offer any financial help. We didn't have any financial help. It was just something we took a big step of faith in and just going to trust God with this, and we started in the family building at a hospital five and a half years ago, and as of right now on a Sunday, if everyone was there at once, maybe 200 people, God just really blessed it.
And out of apology of church, ministry is our ministry outreach to abortion clinics, raise up ministries to abortion mills across the nation. Our church alone knows of over 40 babies saved from death in two years from our ministry.
Wow.
Count the dozens of ministries that have popped up across the nation as a result of listening to us and hearing us and getting instruction, things like that. We also go out to the local Mormon temple.
I was given a lot of inspiration by Dr. White to do that sort of work. We do a lot of local outreach, and we have apology of radio and apology of TV and studios, and that's just basically weekly content of engaging the culture with the gospel.
We hit political issues with the word of God. We hit cultural issues. We hit church issues with the gospel, and we invite on some of the most amazing guests and my heroes that on the show I get to listen to and talk to, and now we're doing it also with apology of TV, and so our goal is to go to the ends of the earth and see really the world changed and shaped by his gospel.
And you are going to be speaking here locally, God willing, in October with the Herald Society for the Philadelphia area Herald Society. Can you tell us something about that?
You know, am I booked for that?
Well, actually, you are on the website. Okay.
All right. Well, I did Philly last year. I know that I am doing the Bonson Conference, which is unique because it kind of fits with our topic for today, but I am doing the Bonson Conference in October in California, and I've got some other things planned as well.
I may be doing Philly. I'm not sure. I love Jeff Rose. He's a good, good friend of mine, and I'm always honored to do stuff with him. So if I'm on the ticket, I guess I'm going to show up.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure you are. And for everybody interested in that conference, which I have been humbled and honored to be invited to be the MC of that conference in October, go to jeremiahcry .com.
Excellent.
Go ahead. I'm sorry.
I do want to say that if anybody wants to see a gathering of very, very godly men committed to the public proclamation of the gospel, and I mean this when I say this, there is no better organization in my mind than the Herald Society and Jeff Rose.
Those are just amazing men of God committed to the gospel. They're solidly reformed, and it's always an honor to be among those men. And I did one with Dr. White in what was that?
April. That was in April in Florida.
In Florida, yeah. So, I mean, I love those men, and it's just an honor.
And that will be October 22nd through the 24th, and among the speakers are Al Baker, who I had on the old Iron Sharpens Iron program, Jeff Rose, as we mentioned, Jeffrey Kirkland, who I have not met yet, Tony Miano, who has been on my broadcast before, did a great job talking about how Calvinism does not diminish evangelistic zeal, and others.
And hopefully Jeff Durbin, but we're not sure about that yet. But go ahead. I'm sorry.
I said I'll go if I'm invited. I'll be there.
Okay, great. Let me repeat our email address. We do have some listeners who have already emailed us questions now that I will get to in a minute. But our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.
Please include your first name, city and state, and your country if you live outside of the U .S. And I see that we've already got a listener from Sydney, Australia, who's emailed us a question for you, Jeff.
But going back to theonomy and reconstructionism, I don't know if you were able to hear our original guest, John Otis' description, but if you could provide for us a summary of what that means to you, theonomy and reconstruction.
Absolutely. Well, for me, I'm not in any way jealous for the term. So I don't necessarily want to introduce myself to somebody as, hey, I'm Jeff, the theonomist or the reconstructionist, because I'm not jealous for the title.
I really am, I think, committed to the principles and the truths that are behind those. For me, the discussion really is about the kingdom of Christ. It is about the kingdom of the Messiah. From the Old Testament to the New Testament, you have a really full-orbed description of what the world ought to be doing, working in his rule.
So from the Old Testament to the New Testament, you see progress in history. You see the kingdom of God coming as a small thing that brings increase. So you see Daniel chapter 2, a stone that becomes a mountain.
Isaiah 9, 6 -7, you see of the increase of his government and of peace, there will be no end. You see an increase there. Jesus comes in. He declares himself to be the king. He says that he brought his kingdom.
He says to the Jews, If I cast out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Well, he did. So the kingdom of God has come upon them. The apostles repeat over and over and over again that Christ has made us a kingdom, that his kingdom has actually arrived in history.
Jesus said that it would be like a mustard seed that became a tree, or like leaven in a lump of dough that eventually permeated the entirety of the loaf. So for me, it's about the rule of Christ as an actual present reality in time and in space.
And the picture the Bible gives to us of the total victory of the Messiah, I think is undeniable. I think that the Bible tells us that this Messiah would bring a kingdom that brought all the nations, that Abraham would have descendants as numerous as the stars, that the nations, Isaiah 2, would stream up to the mountain of God, that the knowledge of God would cover the earth like the waters cover the sea, that he would have dominion from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth.
The Bible, I think, tells us without any doubt at all that he would have dominion and a kingdom that would never be destroyed, Daniel 7, 13 through 14. So it's about the kingdom of Christ. Did he bring it on time and as promised, as planned?
I say yes, and I think that the Bible describes that the blessings of that kingdom are so far-reaching that Psalm 1101 becomes the premier Bible verse quoted in the New Testament from the Old, and that is quoted by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, where he says very clearly that Jesus, he must reign, he's reigning now according to Paul, until all of his enemies, that's all of his enemies are put under his feet as a footstool for his feet, and the very last enemy is going to be finally death.
And that's where Jesus returns for the final resurrection, but it's every enemy and death. And so I see total victory. And then when it comes to the question of the law of God, I think that we have to come to terms with the fact that the law of God is a part of the promise of the kingdom of God in history.
And what I mean by that is that it's God by His Spirit. Jeremiah 31, 31, that God would have His law now internalized by the people of God. It would actually now be an internal thing, not stone tablets outside the people of God, but internalized.
Isaiah 2 specifically says that in this Messianic kingdom, while the nations stream up to the mountain of God, which means, by the way, they're being drawn by God, that the law, the law would go forth from Zion.
That's Zion. That's in the Messianic kingdom, which Jesus says that He brought. The apostles say Jesus brought. And you also have, I think, very, very clearly the display of the fact that in the Messianic kingdom, in the time of His kingdom, justice is an issue.
Isaiah 9, 6 through 7, that's upon our cards, so we know it well. And in that passage, it says that in this kingdom of the Messiah, when it comes to bring an increase of the government and peace, it would be justice.
There would be justice there. And then Isaiah 42 is a very detailed passage as one example that part of God's plan for the Messiah's kingdom is to bring justice in the world. So I'll give you an example.
Isaiah 42, it says this, verse 4, He will not grow faint or be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. And look at this, in the coastlands wait for His law. And so I think that we can't really get away from the fact that the law of God is an integral part of what God is doing to bring about His glory in the world.
It starts with salvation. Jesus accomplished that all by His work alone, through Him alone, through faith alone, by grace alone. It's to the glory of God alone. It's God's work in bringing salvation. Jesus accomplished that.
But as Reformed folks, I think this is a given for us. I hope it is. As Reformed folks, we believe that God doesn't simply nod His hat at you and tip His hat at you and say, okay, you're saved for heaven one day.
No, there's regeneration. There's a removal of a heart of stone and giving a heart of flesh. There's Ezekiel 36, a premier passage for Reformed exegetes, where it says very clearly that God is going to cleanse us of our idols.
He says He'll put His Spirit within us and cause us to obey His statutes. Well, I think when you come to the question of theonomy, it just means God's law. What we would say is as the gospel goes forth and the Great Commission, which is not just wishful thinking but is actually fulfilled, when it's being fulfilled, people experience salvation, they are regenerated, and the law of God now is something that captivates them.
It's actually something that is within them, and they are motivated by God's Spirit and empowered by God's Spirit to actually accomplish the things of the law. And Paul says this, and I'll stop talking here after this, but this is my point in the law of God.
Paul says, do we then make void the law through faith?
No.
We establish the law, and he says this, that now in the Spirit and no longer in the flesh, we can fulfill the righteous requirement of the law, which is fundamentally love does no harm to its neighbor.
So what am I saying when I say theonomy, reconstruction? I just believe this. The gospel transforms real people, and as the gospel transforms real people in the real world, those people actually love the things of God and the law of God, and they look to God and His standards for justice.
I am to any idea that the law of God would save anybody, I am hostile to any idea that the law of God has dropped on society in some sense, but I am committed to the gospel as a transforming power in the world to change people into people who love God's law.
My point is this. When God saves people, they become Psalm 119 kind of people, and that's the work of God. And as that's fleshed out on the earth and the law goes forth from Zion, the world looks like a redeemed world that loves Jesus and obeys Him.
And when they say, well, geez, what should we do here for justice? They're not going to be autonomous. They're not going to just decide on their own. Well, I think we should do this. What do you think?
I think we're going to look to God's Word and say, well, what would God say here? What are His standards? And I'm a general equity kind of guy, so when you look at the law of God, I say, well, what does God say and how does it apply in principle to today's society?
And so before I get specifically to the penal code, I'm assuming from what you just said you would obviously reject the accusation that this is just another form of Judaizing.
Here's the thing, Chris, and I mean this with respect to my brothers that would make that sort of a comment. When people say things like that, when they try to make a claim of Judaizing, I think it demonstrates something about whether or not they've spent time trying to understand what somebody is saying.
So, for example, one of the things I've learned a lot from my friend Dr. James White, who's my hero of the faith and he knows that, is he's taught me in all of his years of ministry that I've watched him to make sure you accurately represent your opponent.
We don't honor the Lord of Truth when we're trying to critique somebody when we misrepresent their position. And you will find the most strenuous denouncement of that idea from every person I have ever read on this issue that is a proponent of it.
The law of God can save nobody. The law of God put over people will save nobody. If you drop the law of God on society today, it will not save them, it will not make them into redeemed people, but it is God's standard nonetheless.
And we all, listen, we all actually get this. For example, this past weekend, across the nation, people went out to Planned Parenthood, right? Christians that are on the sidewalk, to call out to them.
And what did we say to them? We said, you shall not murder. That is God's standard. You shall not murder. Now, whether or not they obey that is another issue, but that doesn't change the fact that that is actually God's standard.
My hope is that, as that is an example, we apply the law of God in that context so that we can bring the gospel into that context in hopes that as the gospel transforms those people, they no longer love death, and they end up loving the law of God, and they say, well, we need to obey God's law here.
And I do hope, I do hope that one day, in the future, if the world is transformed in the Great Commission, as Christ calls us to, I do hope that one day we have a civil magistrate that is actually operating, as Romans 13 says, as God's deacon or as his servant.
And they look to God's law, and they say this. Listen, any mother or father that would execute their own child in this way and kill their own child, they deserve, as a judicial penalty, what God says murderers deserve.
Now, we're not there yet, and there's always grace and compassion and mercy for those who have committed this act. It's Christ who saves sinners. But I hope that as the world is transformed by the gospel, that we look to God's standards, and we no longer allow for this sort of a thing, but that we actually say, no, we need to honor God here, and we're not going to allow for murder.
And I'm assuming you are envisioning, as John Otis had mentioned during the first hour, that this is going to be the government using the sword, and I'm using that term, sword, figuratively, as the scriptures do.
You're not talking about vigilantism. You're not talking about private executions taking place in people's homes, etc.
Yeah, that would be actually a violation of God's law.
This is something that's very important to recognize. When we talk about theonomy and the law of God in a culture, to say that the church has anything to do with the actual bringing to bear the judicial sanctions that God says are righteous and holy, I mean, that's an amazing leap, because the law of God actually is the thing that gives us the distinction between the church and the state.
There is no crossing over. The church has no right to get involved in the specific sphere of sovereignty of the state that God established. And there's a distinction there that in the law of God, the law makes the distinction.
And so the church is called to bring the gospel to the world and offer the forgiveness of Christ and call people to repentance and faith, but the civil magistrate has their position before God, and you said it, Chris, Romans 13, and it specifically says that the civil magistrate does not bear the sword in vain, and he is God's deacon, he is God's servant for your good, and he does carry out the wrath of God.
And so here's the question you would ask is, do we want the state to carry out the wrath of the mother God? Do we want the state to carry out unjust penalties, or do we want the state to honor God as God's servant, as his ordained sphere and institution for justice?
And I want to say yes, because as an example, Chris, and I think this might help people a lot with this discussion, in Romans 13 when Paul says, subject to the governing authorities, and he says that the civil magistrate described here is God's servant, we have to think about this for a second.
Really? Like in Paul's day, Rome was acting as God's servant? I mean, I think they cut his head off. So we have that question. Okay, is that prescriptive or descriptive? And I think it's just very clear, well, it's prescriptive.
The role of the civil magistrate, according to God and the law of God, is to bring this bearer into society, and so that's the specific sphere of the civil magistrate. That's their job. And what people will often say is, Jeff, are you saying that somebody that killed somebody, you don't want to give the gospel to them?
Like, what about grace? What about forgiveness? And I'm going to say to that, goodness gracious, no. Like, the gospel is for all of us. God saved murderers. He forgives them. But we don't say that the civil magistrate no longer has a role, and God is no longer concerned with justice in the world for victims.
I'll give you an example, and I think it will help people. Let's say, for example, there was a guy. You were out with your friends, drinking a cup of coffee, and a guy comes running down the sidewalk, and he's carrying a television under his arm.
And he's sweating, and he's panicked, and you stop together and say, hey, what's going on? And you find out this guy is just robbed someplace, and you start preaching the gospel to him. You need to repent of your sin.
You need to come to Christ. He died for sinners. He rose from the dead. He calls you to turn from your sin, to trust in him for eternal life. And then all of a sudden, right there, God opens his eyes, and he believes.
Now, five minutes later, after this man turns to Christ, police cars come cruising up, and they jump out of the car, and they pull their guns out, and they say, get on the ground. Now, it would be intellectually inept and unbiblical if we walk over to the police officers, and we say, officer, officer, you don't understand.
He just got saved. There are no more penalties. There's no more victims' rights. He just came to Christ. He's saved now. But we understand there's a difference between somebody experiencing salvation and actual justice being done in the world by the specific sphere of the civil magistrate.
Those are two different things. And as a Christian who holds to the law of God as continuously relevant today, I believe that the Church has a responsibility to bring the gospel to the world, and the civil magistrate, Romans 13, has the specific role of making sure they establish justice in a society.
And we don't blend those two spheres. They can talk to each other. The Church can prophetically speak to the civil magistrate, but we are not to bring forth any of those civil sanctions that God calls us to pay attention to.
And we want to thank our listeners for being very patient, for waiting for your questions to be answered that you've emailed in, and we will get to those when we return from our break. If any more of you would like to join us, it's chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. We'll be right back. Don't go away.
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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you've just tuned us in, we are discussing Theonomic Post-Millennialism and Reconstructionism today on our final day of the Eschatology Marathon. And today, for the second hour, our guest is Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church, Apologia Radio, and Apologia TV.
Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And just before I go to our listener questions, we have one of the most beautiful passages in all of Scripture, as you fully know well, Jeff, in 1 Corinthians 6.
Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who have sex with men, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of God. And it seems that the, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if the new covenant, which is a new and better covenant, it seems that although God is the same in the old and in the new, unlike the way some people try to pit the God of the old covenant against the God of the new, as if they are two different gods, one is mean and nasty and harsh and wrathful, and one is loving and sweet and kind.
But we know the God is the same, but we see that it seems that the way he deals with his people is different. And that seems to be a passage that gives us an example of the church being more concerned with repentance and salvation than justice.
And if you could just comment on that.
Absolutely. Now it's a very important question, and I understand when people bring it up, because it's something I've had to work through myself. And I want to say that we need to pay attention to a couple of foundational things.
One is that the Old Testament does display for us that in the new covenant, in the Messiah's kingdom, when it's present on the earth, and that's where the New Testament apostles put Jesus as reigning now in his kingdom, we see that justice and the law of God are going to be part of that kingdom.
Isaiah 42, Isaiah chapter 2, so we see that that's on display clearly. That's what God is going to do in the earth. It's full orb. 1 Corinthians 15, everything is going to be put into subjection to Jesus, all enemies under his feet.
That includes everything. And so we can't say that there's anything outside of his realm of authority. Jesus, Matthew 28, 18 -20, has all authority in heaven and on earth, and I would say that authority on earth is also over the spirit of civil government.
Now Paul confirms that fact in Romans 13, when post-ascension, post-cross, post-resurrection, he says in Romans 13 that the civil magistrate is God's deacon. That's New Testament. That's his specific role now.
So I would say that there's no war going on there between the concepts. Now when the apostle Paul is speaking in a church context, and he talks to people who have been forgiven of their sin, that makes perfect sense and is in the church context.
He's not speaking about the civil magistrate or their role. And if you look at 1 Timothy chapter 1, starting in verse 8, Paul says post-cross, post-resurrection, post-ascension, he says, now we know that the law is good, is good, if one uses it lawfully.
This is, again, post-resurrection. He says, understanding that the law is not laid down, is not laid down for the just, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners. Now watch what he does here.
He says, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, and slavers. He is listing their actual crimes from the Old Testament law, from the Torah, that actually carry with them the civil sanction of the death penalty.
And he says this post-resurrection, post-ascension, with Jesus reigning, it is good, it is laid down for the lawless and disobedient, and he's calling all of those civil sanctions good. And again, that's post-resurrection.
And I would point to one other major thing I think we need to all pay very close attention to. In Acts 25, 11, the Apostle Paul here is on trial, and he says this, for if I am an offender or have committed anything worthy of death, now this is Paul who knows the gospel, this is Paul who's saved, he's forgiven of his sins.
He says, I do not object to dying, but if there is nothing in these things of what these men accuse me of, no one can deliver me to them. This is important. The Apostle Paul, under trial, actually says that, look, if I'm guilty of anything, as a Christian, I'm saved, I'm forgiven.
I don't object to dying. You see, he's not going to say, as a Christian, the law of God is no longer good, the law of God is no longer relevant. He says, in the New Testament era, under the new covenant, look, if I've done anything worthy of death, then I don't object to dying.
Now, the charges, this is really important. The charges that were specifically brought against the Apostle Paul here, they were brought through a series of trials, and they were initially brought before the Sanhedrin and the Festus by the Jews in Jerusalem, and that's back in Acts 25, 1 through 2.
And so the interesting thing here is that the nature of these charges, what was being lobbed against him, the accusation itself, was really specifically about the profanation of the temple, it was about the ringleader of the sect of the Jews, and so these are very Jewish charges being brought against the Apostle Paul.
Now think, Paul, new covenant, New Testament era, Paul, under the rule of Christ, who is saved and forgiven, he does not take this opportunity to tell people, guys, those things are no longer relevant, God is no longer a concern.
Now this would be a premier opportunity, a premier opportunity, but Paul, under trial, to actually say, guys, let me preach to you the gospel of Jesus Christ, and you need to know that those standards are no longer God's standards.
No, he actually says exactly the opposite. He says, look, if I've done anything worthy of death, then I don't object to dying. And these charges that are being brought against him are essentially Jewish, like, law-like charges.
And he's saying, look, if I've done something worthy of death, then I don't object to dying. And that's as a Christian, that's the same guy who wrote 1 Corinthians chapter 6, that talks to people, who says, such were some of you, but you were washed and you were justified.
See, I think the problem here is that we can't think in categories properly. We're only thinking in one category, but the Bible actually gives us different spheres of government and sovereignty. There's the individual, there's the family, there's the church, there's the state.
Those are God-ordained spheres of authority, and you find that throughout the Scriptures. And what happens is that we typically start to blend those spheres when we have this discussion. Here's what I say.
I think we need to think in proper categories, as the Bible gives to us. I don't think that we need to say, well, Jesus saved sinners, so God is no longer concerned with justice in the world. No, he's very much concerned with justice in the world.
He says as much throughout his word, from beginning to end. He charges people with violations of his law. He commands people to turn to him and to experience redemption, and to obey him and love his law.
And with Jesus as the king, which every Christian has to acknowledge, with Jesus as the king, with all authority, in heaven, and here's what we all miss, and on earth, I think we need to begin asking ourselves the question, is the civil magistrate under the feet of Jesus and under his authority?
I say yes to that. And I say that the hope is that through the proclamation of the gospel and the redemption of sinners, people will, in all those spheres, eventually honor and glorify God, and I hope that we would look to the law of God for the standards of justice, rather than the man's autonomous standards.
And just going back to something you said before the break, in keeping with the attempt to not misrepresent anybody, we do want to make a clear distinction between our mutual friend Dr. James R. White and theonomy, because he is not a theonomist.
He's a non-millennialist and a Reformed Baptist, but I just wanted to make sure our listeners didn't think, due to your mention of him earlier, that he was a theonomist.
Yeah, Dr. White and I have had lunch together, meals together, and we've had a little bit of discussion on this, not a whole lot. And I know there are distinctions and differences, but for me, I don't think that many of us are as far apart on this issue as we might think.
For example, what I do, I'm a theonomist, and I do point people at times to some of Dr. White's messages when he walks through the law of God and he shows the general equity and how it could be applied today.
I think in those cases, we're not far apart at all. There are small differences that do sometimes really finely devolve down to differences in eschatology and the belief about the victory of God in history, but I don't think all of us are as far apart as we might think on this.
I think we're actually pretty consistently together. I think a lot of times it's just a matter of confusion about definitions, or what are you actually saying? And so, for me, fundamentally, I'm more in the stream of Puritan way of thinking in terms of the law of God and the kingdom of God is victorious in the world, and not everybody's a fan of the Puritans and how they thought about those things.
I know that I'm more in that stream, and I think we're all much closer than we think on this issue, and I think it's a matter of conversation. We need to start talking more. We need to start trying to graciously understand one another more, and I think once that takes place, we're going to find that we're not that far apart.
Yeah, I just wanted to make sure that that clarification was made because I don't want Dr. White executing me for people thinking that he was a theonomist. But this brings up an interesting point. You are indeed a rarity because not only is it rare for Baptists to be post-millennialists, but you are a Reformed Baptist who is also a theonomist, which you must admit is very rare, isn't it?
Yeah, I suppose it is in modern examples and cases. Look, my Presbyterian friend is in the back right now laughing right now through the glass at me. Mark is a hardcore Presby, and I love him, and I have a great deal of respect for him.
I mean, almost all my heroes are Presbyterian. So he's smiling at me right now, loving this moment. It may be a little off in the sense of what's the norm for a Reformed Baptist, but for me, and I don't want to be cliche here, and I don't want to try to be high and mighty in this place, but for me, honestly, I believe that the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith is an amazing confession of faith.
I believe to it. I hold to it. But for me, in the end, what I'm held captive to is the Scriptures. And while I hold that confession as premier and amazing and beautiful and consistent, if somebody says, well, I think that you're off on the confession here, I will ultimately say, well, I don't think that I am, but I want to hold to the Scriptures as supreme in these discussions.
All right, let's go to our listener questions, at least some of them. My name is Daniel from Sydney, Australia. I attend a Reformed Baptist church, and my church and I have looked into three major eschatological positions, premill, postmill, and amill.
Would you agree that your eschatology position affirms how you understand all of Scripture and not just Revelation or other prophetic language in the Scriptures?
Absolutely, absolutely. I actually did not come to a postmillennial understanding of the victory of God in history from a reading of Revelation initially. It really was a macro view of the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation of what God says about the kingdom of the Messiah.
That's where this all comes down to. It really does. People get confused and say, oh, it's just so much to take in, it's so many things to read, and that's true, there are a lot of things to read, but it really comes down to just simple questions, and it's really this.
Did Jesus bring the kingdom in the first century on time and as planned? Did that actually take place? And if the answer is yes, then you have to move to the next question, and that is this. What does the Old and New Testament say about the victory of that kingdom in history?
And that's real time, on earth, in the physical world. What does it actually say? And I think that if you can answer those two questions with the Scriptures in front of you, I obviously, brothers and sisters, want to debate on this issue, but I do believe that if you lay the Scriptures on the text out, you would see that not only did Jesus actually bring the kingdom, and it is actually a present reality where he's reigning now, but the Bible tells us, I think, the full picture of what it's going to look like when Jesus actually completes that kingdom's victory and delivers the kingdom over to the Father when he's done.
And I think we can't really get away from the fact that it's total victory, and it includes the transformation of not just individuals, but the world itself. And so my view is, I think, not coming from a picture of just simply Revelation, because here's the thing.
There are post-millennialists that do disagree on certain aspects or components of the book of Revelation. Some are more historicist in a sense. Some are more partial preterists. So there are post-millennialists that do have disagreements on how exactly do we interpret rightly the book of Revelation, but the overarching foundational issues are what we hold to.
And I think my view would be, starting in Genesis and moving all the way through, what does God say about the kingdom, its timing, its nature, and its victory?
Just before I go to the second question from a listener, would you find yourself more in the partial preterist camp or the futurist camp?
Partial preterist. I do believe that Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, the Olivet Discourses do refer to the destruction of Jerusalem and the final at the cross, but there are parts and pieces still hanging around, and a lot of the passages that refer to the coming of God, the coming of Christ, in judgment are referring to the very judgment upon that generation, completely all of its parts and pieces.
Hebrews refers to it as the shaking of the heavens and the earth. That, I believe, is what that's about, and I believe that Revelation is a book of victory for first century pre as an encouragement that Jesus is about to act.
He's about to come, and he's about to vindicate them and destroy. He's going to destroy the harlot. He's about to destroy the harlot, which is what God called Israel as a covenant breaker in the Old Testament repeatedly.
He's coming to destroy the harlot who is persecuting the saints, and the beast, Rome, is about to turn on that harlot and destroy, I think, the vision in Revelation of the soon-coming judgment of Jesus upon the covenant breakers to make way for the bride of Christ to invite the world to come and join.
We have Jim in Troy, Missouri. Since Israel was not commanded to enforce their borders, do we in America have the right to enforce our borders? And by enforce, I mean we don't let anyone cross our borders unless they are already a citizen or they have a temporary visa.
That's Jim in Troy, Missouri asked that question.
Yeah, I think that that question could be answered in a number of different ways. I know it's a short time we have today, so I will say this, that what the law of God does command us to do is to make sure that we love and we offer help and hope to those who sojourn among us and to the strangers among us.
So here's what we know about the law of God, specifically regarding foreigners or strangers among us, is that we are to do good to them, we are to love them, we are to give them justice and make sure that they are protected.
And so what is unquestionable about the law of God with respect to the alien among us is to do justice to them, love them, to care for the sojourner and the alien among us. When it comes to questions about how does that work out in a modern society with the government looking to the law of God as a standard of justice, I think that it would definitely be very different than we see right now.
It would be different in terms of, wouldn't be as strict of borders, absolutely not. But I do believe you would definitely have the law of God giving you specific direction regarding quarantine, the things for disease, and those sorts of things that we didn't see early on in America's history with Ellis Island and stuff like that.
We even saw issues of quarantine and protecting the public from people who might have diseases. I think those things are consistent. Our current position on immigration and things like that is definitely newer in terms of how we have done immigration in the world in the past, particularly even how the church functioned and faced the issue of immigration.
It is different how we handle it today. I do believe that you can make a very good case that the way that we handle aliens and sojourners among us is in many ways unbiblical and unjust. But again, that's a very, very broad discussion.
I think there's people that have written excellent stuff on this. I would look up any kind of theonomic commentary on immigration. I know guys like Kenneth Gentry definitely have a particular view of how we should make sure we apply those principles and yet offer protection to society, which is also the protection of human life, obeying the commandment to protect and preserve human life.
So I would definitely look into the foundational issues. I think the main thing for us to do would be look at God's law to say what does He say is just regarding how we handle the alien among us and the sojourner among us, and we work everything out from that particular point.
We do have a listener who wishes to remain anonymous from New Jersey.
Who says,.
There is a lot going on that shows the faithful church is under siege. The recent Supreme Court of the United States decision, militant Islam, economic foundations chipping away with debt. How does a post-millennial eschatology reconcile these things to its hope for kingdom advance?
Oh, very, very, very good question. And I think one of the strongest emotionally laden arguments against post-millennialism is this particular question. And I think it comes from a misunderstanding of what post-millennialists actually believe.
And I think when we say, well, look around us. Things are getting bad. Islam is on the rise. You've got our economic situation completely collapsing. By the way, I would say the reason it's collapsing is because we don't look at God's Word or His standards of economics, but that's another issue.
But what's going on? Like, we seem to be persecuted in many respects. And I would say looking at this question in that way is taking too small of a sampling of history. In other words, if you were to go backwards just a bit, a couple hundred years ago, you ask the question, how many Christians were in North America just a couple hundred years ago?
How many Christians? And we have millions of Christians now in our nation that love Jesus, love the Gospel. And you ask the question also, like, things are getting bad. I would say, well, think about what you're asking.
You're saying that things seem to be getting worse, but you probably have in your library 10 Bibles leather-bound in your library. You go to church, and you pass five churches on the way. You have relatively good freedom in America at the moment.
And again, I think the freedoms that we're losing is as a result of not obeying God's law. But I think it's too small of a sampling of history. And listen, post-millennialism does not say that it's only upward progress but no suffering.
Absolutely not. There's going to be trials. There's going to be suffering. There's going to be moments where a nation like ours that essentially was in covenant with God and then God brings His sanctions upon that nation because of where they're going.
God does deal with nations, and He does punish nations. That's clear in Scripture. And so I think what we see in history is an upward movement because the Bible tells us that's what's going to happen.
It's leaven that permeates the loaf of dough. It's all enemies under Jesus' feet. But it's going to come with suffering. It's going to come with moments of great disobedience and God acting to discipline or to judge.
It's going to come where it's a mustard seed to a large tree. It's going to be moments of growth and moments of failure. It's going to look like corruption and doctrine and then Reformation. And then it's going to look like a nation that obeys God and then maybe sins and turns away from God and God acts in judgment and then He brings Reformation and revival and there's transformation again.
If you look, Chris, at a map. These are out right now. It's very, very cool. I wish I could point people to it. But it's amazing to look at. If you look at a history of Christianity in the world and sort of a map that shows what it looked like as it grew, you see it looks like a balloon that is inflating and then deflating and then, boom, big inflating and then deflating and then big inflating and then deflating.
I mean, if you think about this, Chris, it's crazy. I know you know this because you're really old.
If you think about the fact that I heard the gospel for the first time in the late 90s and when I first... I never went to church. I wasn't raised in a Christian home. But when I was in the church, I remember friends asking me to go on missions trips with them to smuggle Bibles into China and I remember, like, thinking about it, like, I might do this and I remember them telling me, like, look, you might actually get arrested, you might actually go to jail for the rest of your life.
Like, we were talking in the late 90s about smuggling Bibles into China and you might lose your life or you might go to jail for good smuggling Bibles into China. And the crazy thing is, it is 2015 and there was an article that recently went out that said that China is on its way in the next 10 or 15 years becoming the most Christian nation.
That's insane. Who would have ever thought that that would have taken place? And so the progress of the Gospel is a steady progress upward with difficulty along the way. But here's the point. Where does it end?
All I would ask our brothers and sisters to do is this. Read 1 Corinthians 15. We have the Christian faith going forward. And what he says is that Jesus is reigning now until he's put every enemy under his feet and the very last one is death.
And that's when Jesus delivers the kingdom over to the Father. When every enemy is destroyed and everything is put into subjection, what do I know? That despite my circumstances, not doing newspaper exegesis, the Bible says Jesus wins.
Amen. Jesus does win. That we can all agree on. Now, years ago, I remember hearing distinctly a Calvinistic Baptist who was speaking against theonomy at a conference. He was bringing up the Puritans and their abuse of power against Baptists and so on.
Not to mention the magisterial reformers against the Anabaptists. You, as a Baptist and a theonomist, is your view of the civil government during the millennium, is this going to extend, the penal code, is it going to extend towards heretics?
Which, depending upon who's in power, you might be one, because you're a Baptist. And as I mentioned earlier, since you are a rarity amongst theonomists, the vast majority either being Presbyterian or Reformed Anglican or something, how do you respond to that?
Yeah, it's a good question. A very important one. And I would say this. As a foundation, when we look in history at failures in regard to the law of God, I want to say that those failures are so limited and far between that compared to the failures of a man-centered government, an autonomous, non-God-loving government, it's not even comparable.
Like, for example, someone would say, look, under a Puritan style of government, they did this stuff. This was evil. This was bad. I'm going to say, yeah. And look how they were not being consistent with Scripture at that point.
They were acting in contradiction to their standards, their professed standards. But look, if we say, well, look, we have these witch trials, these five people or ten people that died here or there, I would say compare that to 55 million babies in 40 years.
Compare the failures of Christians who didn't get it right by actually not acting consistently with the Scriptures to a government today that oppresses the poor and the widow, does not give justice to the orphan, the system of government today that slaughters babies wholesale.
Daily, 3 ,000 babies murdered in our nation today. Today, when you listen to this broadcast, by the end of the day, 3 ,000 babies will die. And I ask the question, are we to look at a system of government that attempts to look to God's law to appeal to His law as a standard, or are we to just say, God's no longer in concern with justice, and we just let justice run rampant and people become victimized?
I mean, I think it's very clear we need to look to God's standard. Now watch, I'm going to say this. It does not mean, when we say we look to God's law as a standard, that it is a complete bringing over the law of God and dropping it on society.
There are differences. In the New Testament, here's our hermeneutic. The New Testament defines those differences.
And we have to go right there, Jeff. I'm sorry, we're out of time. Apologyatchurch .com and Apologyatradio .com are his websites. And I hope all of you listening always remember that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.