Aug. 24, 2015 Show with John M. Otis & Jeff Durbin on “Theonomic & Reconstructionist Postmillenialism” [End Times 6-Day Marathon]

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,
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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet
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Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 24th day of August 2015, and there's no better way to start off the beginning than with the end, as far as I'm concerned, the end of the world or the end of things as we know it, and today we are going to be discussing post -millennialism and especially, and in particular, the theonomic reconstructionist variety of post -millennialism.
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This is the final day of our eschatology marathon or our ten times marathon.
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Last week we addressed amillennialism on Monday. We addressed pre -tribulational premillennialism on Tuesday.
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We addressed historic premillennialism on Wednesday. We addressed the pre -wrath rapture version of eschatology on Thursday.
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On Friday we began a series, a two -part series, on post -millennialism and we were addressing more of the futurist view in part one of that discussion, and in part two we discussed more of the preterist view or the partial preterist view of post -millennialism, and that will have some commonality with our guest today.
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Today we are discussing the theonomic and reconstructionist understanding of post -millennialism, and we have two guests to do that.
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The first is my dear friend of many years, Pastor John M. Otis, who is the author of Preaching and the
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Victory of the Gospel. He's also founder of Triumphant Publications and the author of many other books.
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And the second guest at the top of the second hour will be Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona, who is also the founder and director of Apologia Radio and Apologia Television, which is going to be launching a new television series in the very near future if it hasn't happened already on the
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National Religious Broadcasters Network. But first of all, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, my dear friend,
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John Otis. It's always good to be with you, Chris. Being the last day of this series, are you saying the end of the world is going to happen?
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Well, I couldn't be according to your eschatology. And I want to thank you also for arranging that wonderful interview that I had with Hannah Overton, which is now archived on the
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Iron Sharpens Iron website for any of you to hear. Hannah Overton, the Christian woman who was wrongly and falsely accused and convicted of capital murder after the accidental death of her foster son,
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Andrew, and who, thanks be to God and His mercy and grace, was exonerated of all charges and freed from prison after seven years of incarceration.
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And you can go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com and hear that program. And John Otis was the key person involved in introducing me to Hannah years ago, actually, when we started doing programs on her case.
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And it was just a joy to finally interview her in person as a free woman. But thank you for that,
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John. You bet. And we are discussing, again, post -millennialism, but a different stripe than we addressed last
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Friday. First of all, give us your overview of post -millennialism before we get into specifically the theonomic and reconstructionist aspect of your view.
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Unfortunately, I was not able to hear. You had John Jefferson Davis on Friday, correct?
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That's right. That was for the first hour. John Jefferson Davis had more of a futurist understanding of the post -millennial position.
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And the second hour, Fred Pugh, who is actually a Reformed Baptist and post -millennialist, had more of the partial preterist view, although they had a lot in common to say.
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And neither one are theonomists. Okay. Well, generally speaking, when we think of post -millennialism, it is what
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I believe to be the biblical view that Jesus Christ is presently reigning from the right hand of God the
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Father in Heaven, which basically every amillennialist would believe this.
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Other forms of post -millennialism should believe that. That Jesus Christ is reigning.
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That the millennial kingdom is a period of time that's limited to only 1 ,000 years.
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But a period of time stretching forward from the apostles to the end of the world, whenever that will come, according to the scriptures,
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Jesus said. That day and that hour no man knows, not even he in his humanity knows of that hour, but the
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Father. But the millennial reign is that period of time whereby
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Jesus is putting down all of his enemies under his foot in conformity with Psalm 110, which the apostle
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Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost. That passage,
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Psalm 110, is the most quoted Psalm in the
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New Testament. Peter said, on the day of Pentecost, what they heard in Saul and the outpouring of the
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Holy Spirit that Jesus promised his disciples, he says, is the evidence.
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That as David said, that Jesus has ascended and he's at the right hand of the
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Father. So in terms of post -millennialism, the millennial kingdom is before the second coming.
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There will be a genuine physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ at the end of the world.
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But it will be, he will come back to a world that has been conquered where his enemies have been put under his feet according to Psalm 110.
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So I mean, that's a general post -millennial perspective. And I trust that my brothers on Friday gave something very similar.
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Now it's interesting that you did use a term, the second coming, which I use and which amillennialists use and even most premillennialists use.
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But as a partial preterist, I've spoken with some partial preterists who object to the term second coming because it's not in the
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Scriptures and because there were previous comings to his final coming.
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Like for instance, the Christ's coming in judgment over Jerusalem at the destruction of the temple in AD 70.
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Do you consider that a coming of Christ? Yes. You know, if we wanted to delve into a little bit of particulars here, when
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I refer to the second coming, I'm referring to that coming at the end of the world whereby the world will be rejuvenated.
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The resurrection of the dead occurs according to 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.
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He will descend from heaven with a great trumpet. All the dead will be raised.
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According to Matthew 25, Jesus the judge will gather all the nations before him, the sheep on the right, the goats on the left.
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And so with regard to the second coming, there shouldn't be any problem with that as long as we understand it's the coming at the end of the world whereby everything is culminated with him having been victorious.
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Now the term parousia, coming, does have variant meanings and according to Matthew 26, 64, when
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Jesus was before the Sanhedrin, he told the Sanhedrin, you shall see the
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Son of Man coming in power. Now that was a parousia. I believe that the exegesis is sound there that Jesus, there was a coming there in 70
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AD. There are various comings in the Old Testament. So I don't have any problem with that term second coming and I use that term as other postmillennials with reference to that event at the end of the world.
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You don't have any problem with it because I'm assuming that the second coming as well as the first are the only times that Christ came to this earth physically, bodily, and visibly to all.
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Correct. Okay, yeah, that's what I was trying to communicate to my friend who is also a theonomist and a partial preterist but he totally rejected the use of the term,
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I'm not sure why. But he was not a hyper -preterist. But let me, since we brought up preterism, and I did have
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Fred Pugh more briefly define it because that wasn't his main focus last
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Friday. But if you could also give our listeners a definition of preterism and partial preterism.
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Well, partial preterism, I mean, partial preterism in distinction from what some call hyper -preterism.
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Hyper -preterism is a view whereby some believe that Jesus is not going to have a visible bodily return.
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I believe that's unbiblical. And so I have to reject that term hyper -preterism if that is what we mean by that.
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Now, preterism, and partial preterism, that which
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I would hope would be basically a view of the book of Revelation whereby in chapter 1, the apostle
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John, being caught up, said he is referencing things that are shortly to come to pass.
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And therefore, the events, most of the events of Revelation have reference to two things, the destruction of Jerusalem, the
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Lord Jesus dealing with apostate Judaism, and the beast, which I believe with a friend,
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Ken Gentry, I would agree that he's done a fine job there. The beast of Revelation is a reference to Nero.
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And the beast is a reference to him not only as a person, but as the head of the
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Roman Empire. The two enemies of Christ and his people throughout
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Scripture. So preterism basically again holds to that much of Revelation has already come to pass and is in the process of coming to pass because we are living in the
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Millennial Age where Jesus is going forth according to Revelation 6, conquering and to conquer.
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Yeah, and what makes everything confusing in regard to that term is that both partial preterists and hyper -preterists often describe themselves simply as preterists.
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Correct? Well, sometimes. I think the partial preterists have made a point to refer to partial to be sure that people don't confuse them with others that hold what we believe to be an anti -biblical position.
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Yeah, well I have heard and read other partial preterists and post -millennialists just describing it as a preterist view.
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But now, what do you believe, to repeat yourself or perhaps maybe more fully explain, what do you believe are the only things left to be fulfilled in biblical prophecy?
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Well, there are several things. For one, Jesus... I made reference to,
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Chris, a passage. I want to turn to Psalm 110.
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As I indicated, this is the most quoted Psalm in the
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New Testament. And that is very, very significant. And I just want to read the first three verses.
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The first four verses. And here's what it says. I'm turning to it right now.
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In fact, I'm going to repeat our email address in case anybody listening would like to join us on there with a question for John Otis about post -millennialism, about theonomy, about reconstructionism, about partial preterism, or about anything involving the end times, last days, eschatology, etc.
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Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com
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Okay. Psalm 110, beginning at verse 1, says, and this is the
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New American Version I'm reading, The Lord says to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,
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Until I make thine enemies a footstool for thy feet. The Lord will stretch forth thy strong scepter from Zion, Saying, Rule in the midst of thine enemies.
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Thy people will volunteer freely in the day of thy power. In holy array from the womb of the
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God, Thy youth are to thee as to do. Now, as I said earlier,
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The Lord Jesus Christ, when he ascended into heaven,
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The scripture says, Peter said, He fulfilled that passage.
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It's called the Session of Christ. He sat down at the right hand of the Father. That would be in fulfillment not only to Psalm 110,
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But Daniel's prophecy of chapter 7. It would be in fulfillment of Psalm chapter 2, as well.
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So, what Jesus is doing, He is presently reigning, He is stretching forth,
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The scripture says, His strong scepter. A scepter is a, You've seen movies of kings,
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They have a scepter in their hand, Or it's a staff, And it's the symbol of authority,
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Of kingly power. Jesus stretches forth that scepter, And it says,
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His rule in the midst of thy enemies. And, The biggest way,
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That Jesus, Brings down his enemies, Is what verse 3 says,
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Thy people, Will volunteer freely, In the day of thy power.
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Now one of the interesting things, That Peter, The apostle said, And the reason he said,
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To those Jews, Many of which had, Yelled for Barabbas, And wanted Jesus crucified,
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Peter said, The evidence, That Jesus is reigning,
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Is that he's poured forth, His spirit, And, Not only the apostles,
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But those who had gathered in the upper room, Were filled with the spirit, And at that age, They spoke with a clear tongue,
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They shared the gospel, To those who had been gathered in Jerusalem, For the Passover, And, After Peter's great sermon,
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The Lord, Convicted, There in Acts chapter 2, It says,
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Brethren, What shall we do? They were pierced to the heart, Peter says,
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Repent, Be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, And it says,
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That day, 3 ,000 souls were added to the church of the Lord Jesus Christ, Now, That's no coincidence,
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That 3 ,000 people believed that day, Because they were convicted, No one can ever come to Christ, Without the conviction,
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Of the power of the Holy Spirit, And Jesus stretched forth, His scepter, And 3 ,000 people came to saving faith,
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And Jesus is, Throughout the last, This past 2 ,000 years, Has been stretching forth his scepter,
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Which explains why the Christian faith, Has had the success,
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And it has had success, Over the last 2 ,000 years, When you consider it from its beginning,
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And, So, What has not yet happened, Not all of his enemies have been put under his feet,
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Now, There's one other passage, I need to read, And this is very significant,
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And that is 1 Corinthians, Chapter 15, And, I'm going to pick up,
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Here at, Verse 20, Now Paul, Is speaking here,
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And he says, But now Christ has been raised from the dead, The first fruits of those who are asleep,
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For since by a man came death, By a man came the resurrection of the dead, For as in Adam all die,
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So also in Christ, Shall all be made alive, But each in his own order, Christ the first fruits,
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After that those who are Christ's, At his coming, Then comes the end,
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When he delivers up the kingdom, To the God, And Father, When he has abolished all rule,
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And authority, And power, For he must reign, Until he has put all his enemies under his feet,
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The last enemy, That will be abolished is death, For he has put all things in subjection,
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Under his feet, But when he says, All things are in subjection, It is evident that he is accepted,
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Who put all things in subjection to him, And when all things are subjected to him,
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Then the Son, Also will be subjected to the one, Who subjected all things to him,
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That God may be all in all, Now the importance, Chris, of that passage,
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In 1 Corinthians 15, If I were just to pick out one passage, That definitively rules out all forms,
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Of premillennialism, And is one of the great passages, Of postmillennialism,
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It's this passage right here, Because he says, He must reign until he has abolished,
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Now, That is a past tense in English, In the Greek, it's an aorist tense,
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The aorist tense, Is a tense that's very similar, To, The English past tense,
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It conveys something that, Definitively takes place, So what,
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The scripture is saying here, Is that Jesus, Is not going to come back, Until, All his enemies,
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Are subjected under his feet, And he must reign, Until he has put all his enemies,
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So until all his enemies, And what that would mean, The nations being,
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Disciples, That doesn't necessarily mean, Some people have a misconception,
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Of postmillennialism, Thinking that, It says that every single human being, Must be converted,
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I don't believe that, The scripture demands that, But it does demand, That the gospel,
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Will be so victorious, In keeping with, Isaiah 11, 9 for example,
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Which is a messianic, Passage there, In Isaiah 11, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the
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Lord, As the waters cover the sea, The gospel, Will have been so pervasive,
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As Hebrews, 8 says, Everybody will turn to their neighbor,
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And they will know the Lord, It will be so pervasive, Now that doesn't mean,
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That satan, Is still, Not operative, We believe that,
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The bible teaches that satan is bound, During the millennial reign, Now being bound doesn't mean, He's not active,
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Because Peter says, He's like a roaring lion, Seeking him he may devour, But according to,
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Revelation 20, His, Satan's, Stranglehold, Upon the nations,
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Is broken, It says there he was a deceiver of the nations, And the fact that Jesus is reigning,
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And putting his enemies under his feet, And that's a spiritual reigning, Through the preaching of the gospel,
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Through the power of prayer, Through the exercise of these divine, Weapons of warfare,
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Satan's kingdom, Is assaulted and overcome, And so, What has not yet transpired,
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Is all the nations, Have not yet bowed their knees, To king Jesus, But one day,
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They will, And let me just say this, Because somebody will say, Well I don't see how you can say that,
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Because things are getting worse and worse, And in America, It's getting pretty bad,
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We're talking about, We don't know how many thousands of years, Left, Or we know the millennial reign,
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Is a long period of time, So you would, Disagree with a previous guest,
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That we had who was a pre -millennialist, Who made the, Claim, In opposition to post -millennialism,
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That it basically, Is teaching a straight, Upward arrow of progression,
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In the future, That things just progressively, And constantly, Get better and better and better,
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You don't believe that? What we say is, There are periods,
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Upward periods of revival, Downward periods, Of persecution,
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But if you were to look, Graphic Chris, You would have it ascending,
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But you would have it, Level out at times, Go up, level out,
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Maybe drop, but go up, Now that's consistent, With church history,
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But there have been, But when you look, Overall, the past 2 ,000 years,
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The gospel, Has had great success, In reaching the nations,
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Overall. Now I know that the amillennialists, Do not have, As optimistic a view,
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Of things that will take place, Here on this earth, During the millennium, But do you believe that,
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Like most amillennialists do, Do you believe that we are in the millennium, Or at least the beginning of the millennium now,
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For instance most amillennialists believe it began, With the work of Christ, On Calvary and the gospel spreading,
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Throughout the nations. I would agree with that, You know in many respects, With a few minor differences,
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There's not a whole lot of difference, Between a postmillennialist, And an amillennialist, In this respect,
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Here's the definitive difference, Is that, A postmillennialist,
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Believes, That the great commission, Will be achieved, And therefore,
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That's why we ought to be optimistic, That's why as, The passage
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I read there in 1 Corinthians 15, And in Psalm 110, These are the promises of God, These are the scriptural promises,
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That must take place, And, When you do a whole study,
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Of the Messiah's reign, It is one of victory, It's not one of defeat,
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You know what's interesting, The great commission there, In Matthew 28, 18 -20,
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A lot of people quote, Verse 19, Go therefore, And disciple the nations,
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Baptizing them in the name of the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit, Teaching them to observe, All that I have taught you,
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And lo I am with you always, To the end of the age, And to the end of the world, But verse 18, Goes with the great commission,
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Verse 18 says, Jesus came saying, All authority in heaven and earth,
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Has been given to me, Go therefore, You see, The reason verses 19 and 20,
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The nations are going to be discipled, Is because of verse 18, Jesus says,
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I have all the authority, I have all the power, And I've said this to people,
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If you have all the power, In the universe, Who's going to stop you? Nobody, And that is very consistent,
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With Daniel chapter 7, In fact let me just read, That because I think
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Daniel chapter 7, Is a very pertinent passage, Let me, While you're looking for that,
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I'm going to repeat our email address, It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -
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A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com If you have a question for our guest, John Otis on Post -Millennialism and Theonomy, Please give us your first name,
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City and state, And country if outside the U .S. Okay I have Daniel 7, 13 and 14
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Chris, And here's what God's word says, Daniel in his, Prophecy he said,
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I kept looking, In the night visions, And behold with the clouds of heaven,
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One like a son of man, Was coming, And he came up to the ancient of days, And was presented before him,
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And to him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples,
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Nations and men of every language, Might serve him, His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
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Which will not pass away, And his kingdom is one, Which will not be destroyed, Now in distinction,
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From my pre -millennial brethren, Who like to look at that passage, Referring to,
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A second coming of Jesus, Words are very important, It says he came up,
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To the ancient of days, This is an ascension, This is not a descending, This is an ascension,
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And it says he was given dominion, Power and glory, That passage,
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Is very consistent, With psalm 110, Very consistent with, Acts chapter 2,
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First Corinthians 15, And so, In this regard,
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Jesus has, That dominion, And if you have all the authority,
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And power, No one can stop you, That's why, Another great passage,
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And eventually, I trust what we talk about, Some of the preaching of the, 18th and 19th century,
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Let me just mention that now, One of the great sermons preached, In 1740,
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Was by William Cooper, To the joint houses of, Massachusetts, The legislative,
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Judiciary, And executive branch, In my book, I have a lot of excerpts of that sermon,
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By the way, Can we pick up on the, William Cooper sermon,
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And whatever else you wanted to bring up, Can you bring that up after the break, Because we have to go to a break right now,
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All right, sure will, We look forward to hearing from you, And your questions for John Otis, On post -millennialism,
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And theonomy, After these messages, So don't go away. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,
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Welcome back, this is Chris Arms And we are speaking with John Otis On Post -Millennialism
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And on Theonomy and Reconstructionism And before the break John, you had
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Mentioned a sermon by William Cowper But you also wanted to bring up some Scriptural texts as well Well this may
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This sermon may be a good transition To the Theonomy Part But In 1740
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William Cowper Not Cowper but Cowper William Cowper In 1740 preached a sermon
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Before the joint Houses of Massachusetts His sermon
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In fact he was invited to do this And His sermon title
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Is called The Honors of Christ Demanded of the Magistrate And his text
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Was Psalm 2 10 -12 Here's what Psalm 2 10 -12
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Says Be wise now therefore all you kings Be instructed you judges of the earth
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Serve the Lord with fear Rejoice with trembling Kiss the son lest he be angry And you perish from the way
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When his wrath is kindled but a little Blessed are all they that put their trust In him
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Now in this I quote You can find this on the internet That's how
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I found it when I was doing Preparation for my book And when I found it I felt like I found a ruby
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Or an emerald It was one of the most magnificent sermons William Cowper Was associate pastor at the
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Brattle Street Church Congregationalist In Boston And his son
36:33
Samuel Cowper Will become a famous preacher during the war Of American Independence And Samuel Cowper will preach
36:40
A great message To that joint houses of Massachusetts Some 30 years later
36:47
But in this This was So post millennial
36:52
And what we would call Theonomic meaning Advocating the law of God Let me just Quote a couple things out of his
37:03
Sermon He addresses the legislative branch Then he addresses the judicial branch
37:09
Then he addresses The governor And by the way the governor of Massachusetts at that time
37:17
Was a man by the name of Jonathan Belcher Belcher was a very Godly man In 1740
37:24
George Whitfield Had made his first preaching Tour throughout New England When Whitfield came to Boston Jonathan Belcher The governor of Massachusetts Escorted him around To all of his preaching engagements
37:38
In the governor's carriage Um Cowper Addresses and says there's no
37:47
Godlier example Than our governor And he addresses
37:53
The responsibility Of rulers And he says the bible This is a direct quote from his sermon
38:00
The bible therefore Which is the great statute book of heaven Must be consulted by the rulers
38:06
Of a people And they must frame their administration By the general laws There laid down And then he goes on to say
38:17
He says as they That means the civil rulers As they rule by Christ And so are they obliged
38:25
To rule for him Therefore to protect and encourage The practice of his holy religion
38:30
To guard and defend God's sacred name Day Sunday And institutions from the insults
38:39
Of those who openly profane And trample upon them And to restrain and punish those
38:44
Vices and immoralities Which are as contrary to the laws of Christ As they are to the welfare
38:50
Of their societies For the very end purpose of their office Is the punishment of evil doers
38:57
And the praise of them that do well And then he says in a word They the rulers should openly
39:02
Profess the religion of Christ Publicly espouse his cause Zealously promote it
39:08
As far as ever their authority and influence Will reach And should strenuously set themselves against Everything that is
39:16
Opposite to his interest Now When he finished with this sermon
39:22
The state of Massachusetts Was so grateful For that So impressed
39:30
That the joint houses Authorized the printing presses Of Massachusetts Meaning public money
39:39
Authorized By the civil rulers Of Massachusetts To print this sermon and distribute it
39:46
Throughout the entire state Now we're talking about Massachusetts Chris But But this is
39:55
Massachusetts 1740 Right And a different Thing So And obviously you're talking about For those of you who love some of the hymns
40:08
By William Cooper That's a different William Cooper from England Right And he was spelled his name
40:15
Calper But actually it was pronounced Cooper But anyway If you could continue Well it's just that And then one of the other great
40:25
Preachers Of that time and a contemporary Of Cooper and Whitfield and others
40:30
Was the Preacher from Virginia By the name of Samuel Davies Samuel Davies His ministry was so profound
40:40
He was called the apostle To Virginia He lived
40:46
To be only 38 years of age But his influence Was vast
40:52
In the state of Virginia Owes much to the ministry Of Samuel Davies And Davies Preached the sermon
41:02
In 1756 At the advent Of the start of the
41:08
French and Indian War His Sermon title
41:15
Was this This was a Sermon preached in Hanover County On May 9th, 1756
41:24
The name of the sermon is called The Mediatorial Kingdom And Glories of Jesus Christ He also preached
41:33
And his text was Psalm 2 12 -14 And In that sermon by Davies He is
41:44
Thoroughly what we would call Post -Millennial And so when we're
41:49
Talking about Theotomy Do you want to make the transition to the Theonomic aspects? Yeah and define
41:56
Theotomy again I know you gave a very limited definition of it But if you could define Theotomy And distinguish it between That and Reconstructionism Well The term
42:10
Theotomy Was a term Made popular by Dr. Greg Bonson Who wrote
42:18
Who I studied under in seminary In the late 70s and became a friend of He wrote a book
42:25
Called Theotomy and Christian Ethics The basic Basis of Bonson's book
42:31
Was this He says Every ethical issue
42:36
Will come down To two things Either autonomy Or theonomy
42:42
Now Theonomy is a term
42:48
It's derived from two Greek words Theos Meaning God And nomos meaning law
42:55
So when you say theonomy It's just meaning God's law When you talk about Autonomy it means auto
43:03
Self law So he says Men will either
43:10
Exalt their own selves As their own law As their own interpreters of what is law
43:16
Or They should kiss the sun They should be in obedience
43:21
To Psalm 2 and the rest of scripture And Only legislate that Which is
43:30
Reveals God's holy character God's law Is a revelation
43:36
Of his holy character So theonomy Simply means God's law
43:43
Now the difference between I mean you're going to have a lot To say okay
43:48
I believe in God's law The issue comes down To how much
43:54
Of God's law is still applicable Exactly And so My denomination
44:02
The Reformed Presbyterian Church In the United States The RPECUS As other denominations
44:10
Presbyterian Reformed We acknowledge The Westminster Standards The Confession of Faith Larger and Shorter Catechisms And Directory of Public Worship As the constitution
44:24
Of our denominations In chapter 19 Let me just read
44:32
A relevant part Of chapter 19 In a part out of chapter 23
44:38
Now you see When we refer to ourselves as I don't usually use the term
44:45
Chris Theonomic Postmillennialism I just say Postmillennialism Right but obviously other
44:51
Postmillennialists object to that So Now In chapter 19
44:58
Of the Westminster Confession It distinguishes Between three parts of God's law
45:04
You have The moral law of God The ceremonial law And the judicial law
45:10
Three aspects of the law of God Now in section 3 of the Westminster Confession It says this
45:17
Besides this law commonly called moral God was pleased to give to the people of Israel As a church under age
45:24
Ceremonial laws Containing several typical ordinances Partly of worship
45:30
Prefiguring Christ His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits Partly holding forth diverse
45:36
Instructions of moral duties All which ceremonial laws Are now abrogated under the
45:42
New Testament And section 4 reads To them also as a body politic
45:48
He gave sundry judicial laws Which expire together With the state
45:54
Of that people Not obliging any other now Further than the general equity
46:00
Thereof May require And then section 5 reads
46:06
The moral law does Forever bind all As well justified persons as others
46:12
To the obedience thereof And that not only in regard to the matter contained But also in respect
46:18
Of the authority of God The Creator who gave it Neither does Christ and the
46:23
Gospel In any way dissolve But much more strengthen this obligation And interestingly
46:29
The proof text That the Westminster delegates gave There to buttress
46:36
Where they got that Section of the Confession For example
46:41
Exodus 20 Genesis 49 1 Peter 2
46:48
Submit yourselves to every ordinance For the Lord's sake Matthew 5 Where Jesus said
46:53
I didn't come to destroy the law But to fulfill it Or to confirm it So The key there
47:04
In where Debate arises Chris Is that meaning General equity
47:12
Yeah You have people who Adhere to the Westminster And people who adhere to the 1689
47:19
London Baptist Confession Which is nearly a duplicate Of that Who love
47:25
God's law And they believe that the Decalogue Is a perpetual law
47:30
That will forever be God's law Ruling over the people Of this earth
47:37
And that Obviously we are saved by grace alone Through faith alone in Christ alone But we still have
47:43
God's law To keep Although we can never do it perfectly Which reminds us of our sin
47:49
And our inability to achieve salvation On our own other than through the blood of Christ But the
47:58
Obviously The Presbyterians And the Baptists Who are reformed and yet not theonomic
48:04
Believe that the moral law Is what carries through to the new covenant And the specific civil law
48:10
And penal codes Of the old covenant are not to be applied Today because of the nation of Israel Not existing
48:18
Right now as far as The one that had a Covenant with God And had a theonomic government
48:26
Or a theocracy In the old covenant Go ahead Yeah well here's the thing
48:33
The key is What did the Westminster delegates Mean by that key phrase
48:39
That that law That judicial law Is not binding except For the general
48:47
Equity may require Now what's interesting Is if you look at The delegates
48:55
And their writings They discuss What they mean by general equity
49:01
For example One of the best booklets that I have That I encourage anybody to get
49:07
Even those who may not be Theonomic But who claim to be
49:13
Confessional They need to read Theonomy and the Westminster Confession By Martin Fulder It was published in 1997
49:23
And he has done A wonderful job Of quoting from the delegates To the
49:28
Westminster Assembly Their meanings Now let me just read
49:34
From an introduction To that What Fulder says
49:40
He says It is common today among Calvinists To equate the moral law with the ten commandments
49:46
This however reduces The scope of God's moral law The ten commandments were only a summary
49:52
Of the moral law The effect of such erroneous theology Is rendered to all other commands
49:57
To be either ceremonial or judicial This causes Confusion when we try to examine
50:04
Puritan attitudes to God's law They saw the moral law As being far broader
50:10
Than the decalogue For example laws forbidding sodomy Bestiality, kidnapping
50:16
Incest were all moral laws Samuel Rutherford Who wrote the great book
50:21
Lex Rex Argued that the capital Punishments for crimes against the moral law
50:26
I .e. idolatry were not Just judicial laws at all But moral George Gillespie on the other hand argued that if Judicial law punished a moral crime
50:36
It was binding Even though still judicial The two views lead to identical
50:42
Results The death penalty for idolatry Sodomy, bestiality Um So theonomists
50:51
He says Have generally used the same terminology As Gillespie dividing the judicial Laws into those which
50:59
Had temporary application Such as those of usury Seven year loans
51:05
Jubilee year release Cities of refuge And the like So by general equity
51:13
What they mean Chris Is the general principle What Greg Bonson Who coined the phrase theonomy
51:21
Meant He says for example The case laws
51:28
Of the Old Testament Are basically Specific Examples Of the summary
51:37
Of the moral law which is the ten commandments They are specific Applications For the nation of Israel Of how to apply the ten commandments
51:47
For example To prevent murder I mean sixth commandment thou shall not kill
51:53
You were required to put A parapet A railing around your rooftop
51:59
You had to put something Cover up a hole in the ground Lest your neighbor fall into it
52:05
Now What Theonomists today mean
52:11
What Greg Bonson Meant was this The general principle
52:17
Is what carries forward Not necessarily The way it was
52:22
Applied When Israel was a nation Thousands of years ago
52:28
For example The law to put a parapet A railing
52:35
Around your rooftop We may not I remember sitting under Bonson's lecture
52:40
He says unless you're at the beach Your houses aren't Flat roofs You don't entertain on your roof
52:47
However if you did You were required to have a railing Why do you put a railing on a step leading up to your house
52:54
To protect life Why should you put A fence around your swimming pool
52:59
But as To protect Someone falling in your pool And therefore he says
53:06
That's the general equity That's the general principle That carries forward
53:13
Into the New Testament The The accusation constantly
53:20
Comes up That Theonomists are really trying to establish
53:26
A Christian version Of Sharia law In the future anyway They are viewed as Having as a goal in the future
53:36
That the church Will establish Sharia law Only obviously with specifically
53:41
The commandments of God In the Old Testament If you could respond to that Well I read recently
53:49
An article That someone wrote That I liked
53:55
It was the difference between God's law and Sharia law I would never want to refer
54:02
To any of these laws In the mosaic legislation As anything remotely
54:08
Of Sharia law We have to remember God is the one
54:14
Who came up with the penal sanctions For these laws That is
54:20
God's idea not man's And so we need to ask ourselves If If we're going to be ruled by God If Jesus in his law
54:31
Did he advocate any law That was in opposition To the mosaic law
54:38
And the answer to that is Absolutely not In fact that was the goal
54:43
Of the scribes and the pharisees In Matthew 5 said You're teaching
54:48
And they always try to pit Jesus against the mosaic law If they ever could find Jesus Saying something against the mosaic law
54:55
They would call him a false prophet They would have been right But he said No I came to fulfill the law
55:01
And he said anybody teaching anything Lesser than this Shall be considered less in the kingdom of heaven
55:08
So and then It's interesting I know time is of the essence
55:14
But For example in Matthew 15 Jesus himself That's a great passage of Jesus bringing forward
55:22
The penal sanctions Of the mosaic law Into the new testament era
55:27
The pharisees Accused Jesus Why don't you teach your apostles
55:35
To observe the tradition of the elders And wash their hands And Jesus says
55:40
Let me ask you a question To the pharisees Why do you negate the law of God For the sake of your traditions
55:47
And then he quotes The law About cursing your father and mother
55:54
Jesus in Matthew 15 Says He who curses his father and mother Ought to be put to death
56:00
Right there Jesus is sanctioning The penal sanction Of the mosaic legislation
56:07
And used it in his argument against the pharisees And then he got all over The pharisees
56:13
He says not only that He says You are not honoring
56:20
Cursing your father and mother You are breaking the fifth commandment Because you say all that which I am given Is given to the
56:26
Lord To the temple And I don't have any money left To give to my hungry mother and father
56:32
And Jesus severely rebuked them So in other words you believe That the penal codes of Old Covenant Israel Will be established
56:41
And should be established In the millennial kingdom Through the church
56:47
Whereby homosexuals and adulterers And so on will be executed Not the church
56:52
Let me put it this way The church has no power of the sword There is a true distinction
56:59
Between the state and the church In a coming time When we have
57:05
A Christian Nation We have to ask ourselves
57:11
What laws Are binding Should adulterers
57:16
Be put to death God says they ought to Should murderers be put to death
57:22
God says they should Should those Guilty of sodomy be put to death
57:28
God says they should Well Genesis 19 is a good example Of God bringing about execution
57:35
Upon those So it will always Come down to Chris It's either theonomy or autonomy
57:42
And We have to ask ourselves Why would we not want to Enact the penal sanctions
57:50
If God is the one who Authorized these laws Couldn't you say the same thing
57:55
About the ceremonial law The dietary laws and all the other things If God is the one who ordained those laws
58:02
In the Old Covenant Couldn't you make the argument That they should be applied in the new as well Because God designed them
58:08
No There is a major distinction Between the ceremonial laws
58:13
And the moral law The ceremonial law Were laws that prefigured
58:20
Christ's atoning work And therefore The laws of sacrifice
58:26
And there about They passed as the confession of faith They were abrogated
58:32
Totally And they find their fulfillment In Jesus Christ But the writer of the confession
58:38
Did not say that about the judicial laws They said They no longer continue
58:44
Except the general principle And that's what we're saying The general principle Still holds forward
58:50
So in other words You're saying that although the church Is not going to be carrying out The penal code
58:57
The governments that will be In the millennium Are going to be supported by the church
59:05
And applauded by the church For doing so Yes I would say that Is that As those sermons
59:14
That I mentioned to you Cooper has a Magnificent statement
59:20
As to who should be running For public office Who should be in public office
59:26
And it should only be Christians And it should be those Who are honorable
59:31
It should be those who uphold God's law You see Back in Massachusetts Bay Colony Plymouth Colony Up until Up until I would say
59:49
Into the 19th century People didn't have a problem They didn't have a problem with The penal sanctions
59:57
Being enacted It's only because It's only within the last century and a half
01:00:03
That the church has become For whatever reason Recall At this
01:00:11
And in the end What does God's word say What does his law say
01:00:16
Well John actually we have to go right now But please quickly give your Website for Triumphant Publications Please give your website
01:00:26
For Triumphant Publications Because we're out of time brother Yes my publishing website Is triumphant Publications Dot com
01:00:36
And let me just say real quickly For Christ Seminary I gave a series of 19 lectures
01:00:42
And you can listen or watch the videos For free Of Church, Kingdom, and Eschatology Where I go into detail
01:00:49
Post Millennial Eschatology And 17 lectures Just go to my website And you can watch these for free
01:00:56
Alright great well we look forward to having you back brother And thank you so much for being our guest today Thank you
01:01:02
Chris Alright God bless you We're going to go to a break right now So please email us your questions
01:01:09
And we'll be right back So don't go away Linbrook Baptist Church On 225
01:01:16
Earl Avenue In Linbrook Long Island Is teaching God's timeless truths In the 21st century Our church is far more than a
01:01:23
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01:01:28
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01:01:34
Where one can find compassionate people and healing We're a diverse family of all ages Enthusiastically serving our
01:01:39
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01:01:46
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01:01:53
That's 516 -599 -9402 Or visit linbrookbaptist .org
01:01:58
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01:03:40
Welcome back this is Chris Zarnes And if you've just tuned us in This is part two of our two hour
01:03:46
Interview today on Theonomic Postmillennialism Also known as Reconstructionism And we had for the first hour
01:03:54
John Otis Author of Preaching the Victory of the Gospel And founder of Triumphant Publications And now we begin our
01:04:02
Second hour with Jeff Durbin Of Apologia Church In Tempe Arizona And he is also the founder
01:04:08
Of Apologia Radio and Apologia TV And we're going to hear more About the launching of his new television
01:04:14
Program on the National Religious Broadcasters Network But it's my honor and privilege To welcome you back to Iron Sharp as Iron Jeff Durbin What's up Chris thanks for having me back brother
01:04:24
Hey thanks for being on the program And let's hear more about Apologia TV And the
01:04:31
NRB Television Network Well God's been Really really good to us
01:04:36
This past year The Apologia Radio Itself as a podcast has
01:04:42
Doubled in it's listenership Over the last couple of months And that's actually a pretty large
01:04:48
Increase We just opened our studio Just a few months ago
01:04:53
God gave us the ability to have our own studio And so we can produce our own podcast From here and also our own television
01:05:00
Program and just a bunch of other Stuff we can do as well But he gave us the ability to do it It's only been gosh it seems like maybe three months or so And we have signed a contract
01:05:11
We are officially Scheduled to be on the NRB network Nationwide In October twice a week
01:05:18
I believe Thursday and Saturday are the days That we're going to be on Well I guess I should consider myself a prophet
01:05:24
Because as you know I left a Lengthy voicemail message for you After the first time seeing
01:05:30
The broadcast you did With Dr. James R. White our mutual friend At Alpha Omega Ministries and also
01:05:36
Michael Brown when you were doing A response to the Supreme Court decision Legalizing same sex marriage
01:05:42
And I told you this has got to be on NRB You did such a phenomenal job Not only because of the content
01:05:48
But because of the graphics The camera work Everything about the program was more professional
01:05:54
Than the majority of things I've seen On television perhaps especially Christian television Well I'm really glad To hear you say that and grateful
01:06:02
And a lot of that has to go of course To God's unique gifting In Marcus Pittman He moved out here
01:06:10
Gosh what was it Marcus what was that April? April Marcus moved out here in April I'm in our studio right now he's nodding to the glass
01:06:18
April he moved out here And since then we've just been able to Change the quality of what we do
01:06:24
Which we want to do everything To the glory of God And we want to make sure the media that we're putting out Is on par and even better Than what the world puts out
01:06:33
So we're doing our best with at the time limited resources But we're just excited about what God Is going to continue to do as we're able to Even get better technology
01:06:41
And things like that but that blessed me Because Dr. White's a gift He's a friend and he's one of my heroes
01:06:47
Of the faith and Dr. Brown is a gift And I love those men dearly And being able to do that was something
01:06:53
We really thought was important And we got a lot of really great feedback Just like yours and I wasn't able to get back
01:06:59
To you when you sent that message to me I was in Kauai actually We're trying to do a church plant
01:07:05
Right now in Kauai so I wasn't able to call you back To let you know hey David we're already on Hey well that's quite alright
01:07:11
And obviously I have a lot To go or a long way to go Before I match any kind of professional quality
01:07:17
As far as the technical aspect Of my show But that is something That I hope to eventually achieve
01:07:24
As well Right now we have a very humble Situation here in the studio
01:07:29
But God willing that will improve And we already have many generous people Who want to see that happen
01:07:36
The thing is though is you have a quality Product So it's okay
01:07:42
If the audio is a little scratchy We've been through all those same things Well apparently
01:07:48
The people hearing the program Hear me a lot better than you are hearing me Right now for some reason So I don't know why that is
01:07:54
That's a typical complaint of the phone guests That I come through a little scratchy But it's not that way on the recordings
01:08:01
Or the broadcast for some reason I don't know We are going to have a professional studio technician
01:08:07
Go over this with a fine tooth comb But if you could For those of our listeners who missed
01:08:12
Your last visit with us If you could go over A brief description of Apology at Church Absolutely Apology at Church Is a new -ish church plant
01:08:25
In Tempe Arizona We planted about five and a half years ago Going on six years actually now
01:08:31
And we planted Out of a drug and alcohol Rehabilitation center I was a pastor at a church in Phoenix And I was also a pastor
01:08:40
As a chaplain at the hospital And so many people were coming to Christ At this hospital
01:08:46
That it became really really clear to us That God was calling us to have a Unique place to be able to shepherd them
01:08:52
And care for them Because we were having a difficult time Placing some of these people With these unique struggles in local churches
01:08:58
They were asking us what do I do with them And so it became clear I fought against God a bunch
01:09:04
I had no plans ever of planting a church I had no vision of that I had no thought to do that ever
01:09:11
And so I really kind of fought against God For a while And I had some really great men of God That spoke into my life
01:09:18
That know me, know my giftings They know my own shortcomings They spoke into my life, seminary professors, pastors
01:09:25
And they just basically all told me Jeff God is calling you to do this And you need to go or you're in sin
01:09:31
And so The elders of the church that I was at Laid hands on me And I resigned from my position
01:09:39
As pastor at the church I was at And to go and do this work We started at zero We started really with the church
01:09:46
I was at Couldn't offer any financial help We didn't have any financial help It was just something we took a big step of faith in And just going to trust
01:09:53
God with this And we started in the family building At a hospital five and a half years ago And as of right now on a
01:09:59
Sunday If everyone was there at once, maybe 200 people God just really blessed it And out of Apology of Church Came just a host of other ministries
01:10:09
The Red Door Ministry Is our ministry outreach to abortion clinics We've helped to raise up Ministries to abortion mills across the nation
01:10:17
Our church alone Knows of over 40 babies Saved from death in two years
01:10:22
From our ministry Count the dozens of ministries That have popped up across the nation
01:10:28
As a result of listening to us And hearing us and getting instruction We also go out to the local
01:10:34
Mormon temple I was given a lot of inspiration by Dr. White To do that sort of work We do a lot of local outreach
01:10:40
And we have Apologia radio And Apologia TV and studios And that's just basically weekly content
01:10:46
Of engaging the culture within the gospel We hit political issues With the word of God We hit cultural issues
01:10:53
We hit church issues with the gospel And we invite on some of the most amazing guests
01:10:58
And my heroes that on the show I get to listen to and talk to And now we're doing it also with Apologia TV And so our goal is
01:11:05
To bring glory to Christ To spread his gospel to the ends of the earth And to see really the world changed
01:11:12
And shaped by his gospel And you are going to be Speaking here locally
01:11:18
God willing in October With the Herald Society For the
01:11:23
Philadelphia area Herald Society Can you tell us something about that? You know am I booked for that? Well actually you are
01:11:34
I think you are on the website Ok well I did
01:11:40
Philly last year I know that I am doing The Bonson Conference Which is unique because it kind of Fits with our topic for today
01:11:47
But I am doing the Bonson Conference In October in California And I've got some other things planned as well
01:11:53
I may be doing Philly I'm not sure I love Jeff Rose He's a good friend of mine
01:11:59
And I'm always honored to do stuff with him So if I'm on the ticket I guess I'm going to show up Yeah I'm pretty sure you are
01:12:06
And for everybody interested in that conference Which I have been humbled
01:12:13
And honored to be invited To be the MC Of that conference In October Go to JeremiahCry .com
01:12:22
Excellent Go ahead I'm sorry I do want to say that if anybody Wants to see a gathering of very very
01:12:29
Godly men committed to the Public proclamation of the Gospel And I mean this when
01:12:34
I say that There is no better organization in my mind Than the Herald Society and Jeff Rose Those are just amazing men of God Committed to the
01:12:43
Gospel They are solidly reformed And it's always an honor To be among those men
01:12:50
I did one with Dr. White In what was that? April In Florida I love those men
01:13:00
And it's just an honor And that will be October 22nd through the 24th And among the speakers
01:13:06
Are Al Baker Who I had on the old Iron Sharpens Iron Program Jeff Rose as we mentioned Jeffrey Kirkland who
01:13:12
I have not met yet Tony Miano who has been on my broadcast Before and did a great job talking about How Calvinism does not
01:13:21
Diminish Evangelistic zeal And others so and hopefully Jeff Durbin But we're not sure about that yet But Go ahead
01:13:30
I'm sorry I said I'll go if I'm invited I'll be there Okay great Let me repeat our email address
01:13:37
We do have some listeners who have already Emailed us questions now That I will get to in a minute
01:13:42
But our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com
01:13:49
Please include your first name City and state and your country If you live outside of the
01:13:54
U .S. And I see that we've already Got a listener from Sydney Australia Who's emailed us a question
01:14:01
For you Jeff But Going back to Theonomy and Reconstructionism I don't know if you were able to hear our original guest
01:14:10
John Otis' description But if you could provide for us A summary of what that means
01:14:17
To you Theonomy and Reconstruction Absolutely Well for me
01:14:22
I'm not In any way jealous for the term So I don't Fairly want to introduce myself
01:14:28
To somebody as hey I'm Jeff the Theonomist Or the Reconstructionist Because I'm not jealous for the title
01:14:34
I really am I think committed To the principles and the truths That are behind those
01:14:40
Systems of thought and so for me The discussion really is About the Kingdom of Christ It is about the
01:14:47
Kingdom of the Messiah From the Old Testament to the New Testament You have a really full
01:14:52
Orb description of what the World is to expect God to be doing with the
01:14:58
Messiah In his redemptive work and in his rule So from the Old Testament to the New Testament You see progress and history
01:15:04
You see the Kingdom of God coming As a small thing that brings Increase so you see Daniel chapter 2
01:15:10
A stone that becomes a mountain Isaiah 9, 6 -7 you see Of the increase of his government and of peace
01:15:16
There will be no end Jesus comes in He declares himself to be the king
01:15:21
He says that he brought his kingdom He says to the Jews if I cast out demons By the finger of God then
01:15:28
The Kingdom of God has come upon you Well he did so the Kingdom of God Has come upon them the apostles
01:15:33
Repeat over and over and over again That Christ has made up the kingdom That his kingdom has actually arrived in history
01:15:40
Jesus said it would be like Mustard seed that became a tree Or like leaven in a lump of dough
01:15:45
That eventually permeated the entirety of the world But for me it's about The rule of Christ as an actual
01:15:51
Present reality in time And in space And the picture the
01:15:57
Bible gives To us of the total victory Of the Messiah I think is undeniable I think that the
01:16:03
Bible tells us That this Messiah would bring a kingdom That brought all the nations That Abraham would have descendants as numerous as the stars
01:16:09
That the nations, Isaiah 2, would stream up To the mountain of God That the knowledge of God would cover the earth
01:16:15
Like the waters cover the sea That he would have dominion from sea to sea From the river to the ends of the earth
01:16:20
The Bible I think tells us without any doubt at all That he would have dominion And a kingdom that would never be destroyed
01:16:27
Daniel 7, 13 -14 So it's about the kingdom of Christ Did he bring it on time and as promised
01:16:33
As planned I say yes And I think that the Bible describes That the blessings of that kingdom
01:16:39
Are so far reaching That Psalm 110 -1 becomes The premier
01:16:45
Bible verse quoted In the New Testament from the Old And that is quoted by Paul In 1
01:16:51
Corinthians 15 Where he says very clearly That Jesus he must reign
01:16:56
He's reigning now according to Paul Until all of his enemies All of his enemies are put under his feet
01:17:02
As a footstool for his feet And the very last enemy is going to be finally death And that's where Jesus returns for the final resurrection
01:17:08
But it's every enemy And death And so I see total victory And then when it comes to the question of the law of God I think that we have to come to terms
01:17:17
With the fact that the law of God Is a part of the promise Of the kingdom of God in history
01:17:23
And what I mean by that is that it's God by his spirit Jeremiah 31 -31 That God would have his law now internalized
01:17:31
By the people of God It would actually now be an internal thing Not stone tablets outside the people of God But internalized
01:17:37
Isaiah 2 specifically says That in this Messianic kingdom While the nations stream up to the mountain of God Which means by the way they're being drawn by God That the law
01:17:48
The law Would go forth from Zion The Torah would go forth from Zion That's in the
01:17:54
Messianic kingdom which Jesus says That he brought The apostles say Jesus brought And you also have
01:18:00
I think very very clearly The display of the fact that in the Messianic kingdom In the time of his kingdom
01:18:05
Justice is an issue Isaiah 9 6 -7 That's a popular
01:18:10
Christmas verse on our card So we know it well And in that passage it says
01:18:15
That in this kingdom of the Messiah When it comes to bring an increase of the government And peace It would be justice
01:18:22
There would be justice there And then Isaiah 42 Is a very detailed passage
01:18:27
As one example That part of God's plan For the
01:18:33
Messiah's kingdom Is to bring justice in the world So I'll give you an example Isaiah 42 Verse 4
01:18:39
He will not grow faint or be discouraged Till he has established justice In the earth
01:18:44
And the coast lands Wait for his law
01:18:49
And so I think that we can't Really get away from the fact That the law of God is an integral part
01:18:55
Of what God is doing To bring about his glory in the world It starts with salvation
01:19:01
Jesus accomplished that All by his work alone Through him alone, through faith alone
01:19:07
By grace alone It's to the glory of God alone It's God's work in bringing salvation Jesus accomplished that But as Reformed folks
01:19:14
I think this is a given for us I hope it is As Reformed folks We believe that God doesn't simply nod his hat at you
01:19:22
And tip his hat at you and say Okay you're saved for heaven one day No there's regeneration There's a removal of a heart of stone
01:19:29
And giving a heart of flesh There's Ezekiel 36 A premier passage for Reformed exegetes
01:19:34
Where it says very clearly That God is going to cleanse us Of our idols He says he'll put his spirit within us
01:19:41
And cause us to obey His statutes Well I think when you come to the question
01:19:47
Of theonomy it just means God's law What we would say is As the gospel goes forth And the great commission
01:19:53
Which is not just wishful thinking But is actually fulfilled When it's being fulfilled
01:19:59
People experience salvation They are regenerated And the law of God now is something that captivates them
01:20:06
It's actually something that is Within them And they are motivated by God's spirit
01:20:11
And empowered by God's spirit To actually accomplish the things of the law And Paul says this
01:20:17
And I'll stop talking here after this This is my point in the law of God Paul says do we then make void the law through faith
01:20:24
No We establish the law And he says this That now in the spirit
01:20:30
And no longer in the flesh We can fulfill the righteous requirement Of the law
01:20:35
Which is fundamentally love does no harm to its neighbor So what am I saying when I say Theonomy, reconstruction
01:20:41
I just believe this The gospel transforms real people And as the gospel transforms real people in the real world
01:20:47
Those people actually love The things of God and the law of God And they look to God And his standards for justice
01:20:56
I am hostile To any idea That the law of God would save anybody
01:21:02
I am hostile to any idea That the law of God has dropped on society In some sense
01:21:07
But I am committed to the gospel As a transforming power
01:21:12
In the world To change people Into people who love God's law
01:21:17
My point is this When God saves people They become Psalm 119 kind of people
01:21:22
And that's the work of God And as that's fleshed out on the earth And the law goes forth from Zion The world looks like a redeemed world
01:21:31
That loves Jesus And obeys him And when they say Well geez what should we do here for justice
01:21:38
They're not going to be autonomous They're not going to just decide on their own Well I think we should do this, what do you think
01:21:43
I think we're going to look to God's word and say Well what would God say here What are his standards
01:21:49
And I'm a general equity kind of guy So when you look at the law of God I say well what does
01:21:54
God say And how does it apply in principle to today's society And so Before I get specifically to the penal code
01:22:03
I'm assuming From what you just said You would obviously reject the accusation That this is just another form of Judaizing I When I Here's the thing
01:22:14
Chris And I mean this with respect to my brothers That would make that sort of a claim And with a lot of love and grace towards them
01:22:21
When people say things like that When they try to make a claim of Judaizing I think it demonstrates something
01:22:28
About whether or not They've spent time trying to understand What somebody is saying
01:22:34
So for example One of the things I've learned a lot From my friend Dr. James White Who's my hero of the faith
01:22:40
And he knows that Is he's taught me In all of his years of ministry That I've watched him To make sure you accurately represent your opponent
01:22:48
We don't honor the Lord of truth When we're trying to critique somebody
01:22:53
When we misrepresent their position And you will find The most strenuous
01:23:01
Denouncement Of that idea From every person I have ever read on this issue
01:23:06
That is a proponent of it The law of God can save nobody The law of God put over people
01:23:13
Will save nobody If you drop the law of God On society today It will not save them
01:23:19
It will not make them into redeemed people But it is God's standard nonetheless
01:23:25
And we all Actually get this For example this past weekend
01:23:30
Across the nation People went out to Planned Parenthood Christians did To call out to them
01:23:37
And what did we say to them We said you shall not murder That is
01:23:42
God's standard You shall not murder Now whether or not they obey that Is another issue
01:23:48
But that doesn't change the fact That that is actually God's standard My hope is that As that is an example
01:23:54
We apply the law of God In that context So that we can bring the gospel
01:24:00
Into that context In hopes that as the gospel transforms those people They no longer love death
01:24:06
And they end up loving the law of God And they say We need to obey God's law here
01:24:12
And I do hope That one day In the future As the world is transformed
01:24:17
In the great commission As Christ calls us to I do hope that one day We have a civil magistrate
01:24:23
That is actually operating As Romans 13 says As God's deacon or as his servant
01:24:28
And they look to God's law And they say this Listen any mother or father That would execute their own child in this way
01:24:35
And kill their own child They deserve as a judicial penalty What God says murderers deserve
01:24:41
Now we're not there yet And there's always grace and compassion and mercy For those who have committed this act
01:24:46
It's Christ who saves sinners But I hope that as the world is transformed by the gospel That we look to God's standards
01:24:52
And we no longer allow for this sort of thing But that we actually say No we need to honor God here And we're not going to allow for murder
01:24:59
And I'm assuming you are envisioning As John Otis had mentioned
01:25:04
During the first hour That this is going to be the government Using the sword
01:25:10
And I'm using that term sword figuratively As the scriptures do The You're not talking about vigilanteism
01:25:18
You're not talking about private Executions taking place in people's homes Etc Yeah that would be actually a violation of God's law
01:25:27
Right This is very important to recognize When we talk about theonomy And the law of God in a culture
01:25:32
To say that the church has anything to do with The actual bringing to bear
01:25:38
The judicial sanctions That God says are righteous And holy I mean that's an amazing leap
01:25:45
Because the law of God actually Is the thing That gives us the distinction
01:25:51
Between the church and the state There is no crossing over The church has no right
01:25:57
To get involved in the specific Sphere of sovereignty of the state That God established
01:26:02
And there's a distinction there That in the law of God The law makes the distinction And so the church
01:26:08
Is called to bring the gospel to the world And offer the forgiveness of Christ And call people to repentance and faith
01:26:14
But the civil magistrate has their position Before God And you said it Chris, Romans 13
01:26:20
And it specifically says That the civil magistrate Does not bear the sword in vain
01:26:26
And he is God's deacon He is God's servant for your good
01:26:31
And he does carry out The wrath of God And so here's the question you would ask Is do we want the state to carry out
01:26:37
The wrath of the mother God Do we want the state to carry out Unjust penalties Or do we want the state to honor
01:26:44
God As God's servant As his ordained sphere and institution
01:26:49
For justice And I want to say yes As an example Chris And this might help people a lot
01:26:55
With this discussion In Romans 13 when Paul says To be subject to the governing authorities
01:27:00
And he says that the Civil magistrate described here Is God's servant We have to think about this for a second
01:27:07
Really? Like in Paul's day Rome was acting as God's servant I mean I think they cut his head off So we have that question
01:27:16
Okay is that prescriptive Or descriptive And I think it's just very clear
01:27:21
Well it's prescriptive But the role of the civil magistrate According to God and the law of God Is to bring the sword of God The sword of justice
01:27:29
There in a society And so that's the specific sphere Of the civil magistrate That's their job
01:27:35
And what people will often say Is Jeff are you saying That somebody that killed somebody
01:27:42
You don't want to give the gospel to them Like what about grace What about forgiveness Goodness gracious no
01:27:47
The gospel is for all of us God saved murderers He forgives them but we don't say
01:27:53
That the civil magistrate No longer has a role And God is no longer concerned with justice
01:27:58
In the world for victims I'll give you an example Let's say for example there was a guy
01:28:05
You were out with your friends Drinking a cup of coffee And a guy comes running down the sidewalk
01:28:10
And he's carrying a television under his arm And he's sweating And he's panicked And you stop and say hey what's going on And you find out this guy is just robbed
01:28:19
And you start preaching the gospel You need to repent of your sin You need to come to Christ He died for sinners
01:28:24
He rose from the dead He calls you to turn from your sin To trust in him for eternal life And then all of a sudden right there
01:28:30
God opens his eyes And he believes Now five minutes later After this man turns to Christ Police cars come cruising up And they jump out of the car
01:28:39
And they pull their guns out And say get on the ground Now it would be intellectually inept
01:28:44
And unbiblical If we walk over to the police officers And we say officer officer
01:28:50
You don't understand He just got saved There are no more penalties There's no more victims rights
01:28:57
He just came to Christ He's saved now But we understand there's a difference Between somebody experiencing salvation
01:29:03
And actual justice being done in the world By the specific sphere of the civil magistrate
01:29:08
Those are two different things And as a Christian Who holds to the law of God As continuously relevant today
01:29:17
I believe That the church has a responsibility To bring the gospel to the world And the civil magistrate
01:29:23
Romans 13 has the specific role Of making sure they establish Justice in a society
01:29:29
And we don't blend those two spheres They can talk to each other The church can prophetically speak
01:29:35
To the civil magistrate But we are not to bring forth Any of those civil sanctions That God calls us to pay attention to We want to thank our listeners
01:29:44
For being very patient For waiting for your questions to be answered That you've emailed in And we will get to those when we return from our break
01:29:52
If any more of you would like to join us It's chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com
01:29:58
Please give us your first name, city and state And your country of residence if you live outside the USA We'll be right back
01:30:04
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Welcome back This is Chris Arns And if you've just tuned us in We are discussing Theonomic Postmillennialism And Reconstructionism today
01:32:15
On our final day of the Eschatology Marathon And today for the second hour
01:32:20
Our guest is Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church Apologia Radio and Apologia TV Our email address is
01:32:28
ChrisArnsen at gmail .com ChrisArnsen at gmail .com And just before I go to our listener questions
01:32:34
We have one of the most Beautiful passages In all of scripture
01:32:40
As you fully Know well Jeff In 1 Corinthians 6
01:32:47
Do not be Deceived, neither the sexually Immoral, nor idolaters, nor Adulterers, nor men
01:32:54
Who have sex with men, nor thieves Nor the greedy, nor drunkards Nor slanderers, nor swindlers
01:33:00
Will inherit the kingdom of God And that is what some Of you were
01:33:05
But you are washed, you are sanctified You are justified in the name Of the
01:33:11
Lord Jesus Christ And by the Spirit of God And it seems That the, correct me
01:33:18
If I'm wrong, but it seems as if The new covenant Which is a new and better covenant
01:33:24
It seems that although God Is the same in the old And in the new, unlike the way
01:33:29
Some people try to pit the God of the old Covenant against the God of the new As if they are two different gods
01:33:34
One is mean, and nasty, and harsh, and wrathful And one is loving, and sweet, and kind But we know the
01:33:40
God is the same We see that it seems That the way he deals with his people Is different And that seems to be a passage
01:33:48
That gives us an example Of the church being more concerned With repentance and salvation
01:33:55
Than justice And if you could just comment on that Absolutely Now it's a very important question
01:34:01
And I understand when people bring it up Because it's something I've had to work through myself And I want to say
01:34:07
That we need to pay attention to a couple of foundational things One Is that the Old Testament Does display for us that in the new covenant
01:34:16
In the Messiah's kingdom When it's present on the earth And that's where the New Testament apostles
01:34:21
Put Jesus as reigning now In his kingdom We see that justice and the law of God Are going to be part of that kingdom
01:34:29
Isaiah 42, Isaiah chapter 2 Isaiah 9 So we see that that's on display
01:34:35
Clearly that's what God is going to do In the earth It's full orb 1 Corinthians 15 Everything is going to be put into subjection to Jesus All enemies under his feet
01:34:46
That includes everything And so we can't say that there's anything outside of his realm of authority Jesus Matthew 28, 18 -20
01:34:53
Has all authority in heaven And on earth And I would say that authority on earth
01:34:59
Is also over the spirit civil government Now Paul confirms that fact In Romans 13
01:35:04
When post ascension, post cross Post resurrection He says in Romans 13
01:35:11
That the civil magistrate Is God's deacon That's New Testament That's his specific role now
01:35:19
So I would say that There's no war going on there Between the concepts
01:35:24
Now when the apostle Paul is speaking in a church context And he talks to people who have been forgiven of their sin That makes perfect sense
01:35:32
He's not speaking about the civil magistrate Or their role And if you look at 1 Timothy Chapter 1
01:35:38
In 1 Timothy chapter 1 starting in verse 8 Paul says post cross Post resurrection, post ascension
01:35:44
He says now we know that the law is good Is good If one uses it lawfully
01:35:50
This is again post resurrection He says understanding that the law is not laid down Is not laid down For the just but for the lawless and disobedient
01:35:59
For the ungodly and sinners Now watch what he does here He says for the unholy and profane For those who strike their fathers and mothers
01:36:06
For murderers, sexually immoral Men who practice homosexuality And slavers He is listing their actual crime
01:36:15
From the Old Testament law From the Torah That actually carry with them The civil sanction of the death penalty
01:36:22
And he says this Post resurrection, post ascension With Jesus reigning It is good, it is laid down For the lawless and disobedient
01:36:33
And he is calling all of those civil sanctions Good And again that is post resurrection
01:36:38
And I would point to one other major thing I think we need to all pay very close attention to In Acts 25 11
01:36:45
The apostle Paul here is on trial And he says this For if I am an offender
01:36:52
Or have committed anything Worthy of death This is Paul who knows the gospel
01:36:57
This is Paul who is saved He is forgiven of his sins He says I do not object to dying
01:37:03
But if there is nothing in these things Of what these men accuse me of No one can deliver me to them This is important The apostle
01:37:09
Paul under trial Actually says that look If I am guilty of anything
01:37:14
As a Christian I am saved, I am forgiven I do not object to dying You see he is not going to say
01:37:21
As a Christian The law of God is no longer good The law of God is no longer relevant He says in the
01:37:27
New Testament era Under the new covenant Look if I have done anything worthy of death Then I do not object to dying
01:37:33
Now the charges, this is very important The charges that were specifically brought Against the apostle Paul here
01:37:38
They were brought through a series of trials And they were initially brought
01:37:44
Before the Sanhedrin And the Festus By the Jews in Jerusalem And that is back in Acts 25 1 -2
01:37:52
And so the interesting thing here Is that the nature of these charges What was being lobbed against him The accusation itself
01:37:58
Was really specifically about The profanation of the temple It was about the ringleader of the sect of the
01:38:05
Jews And so these are very Jewish charges Being brought against the apostle Paul Now think,
01:38:10
Paul, new covenant New Testament era Paul, under the rule of Christ Who was saved and forgiven
01:38:17
He does not take this opportunity To tell people Guys, those things are no longer relevant
01:38:23
God is no longer concerned Now this would be a premier opportunity A premier opportunity
01:38:29
With Paul under trial To actually say, guys let me preach to you The gospel of Jesus Christ And you need to know that those standards
01:38:37
Are no longer God's standard No, he actually says exactly the opposite He says, look, if I've done anything
01:38:43
Worthy of death And I don't object to dying And these charges that are being brought against him Are essentially
01:38:49
Jewish Law -like charges And he's saying, look, if I've done something worthy of death
01:38:54
Then I don't object to dying And that's as a Christian That's the same guy who wrote 1 Corinthians 6
01:39:00
That talks to people who says Such were some of you, but you were washed And you were justified See, I think the problem here is that We can't think in categories properly
01:39:09
We're only thinking in one category But the Bible actually gives us different spheres Of government and sovereignty
01:39:16
There's the individual, there's the family There's the church, there's the state Those are God -ordained spheres
01:39:22
Of authority And you find that throughout the scriptures And what happens is that we typically
01:39:27
Start to blend those spheres When we have this discussion Here's what I say I think we need to think in proper categories
01:39:35
As the Bible gives to us I don't think that we need to say Well, Jesus saved sinners
01:39:41
So God is no longer concerned with justice in the world No, he's very much Concerned with justice in the world
01:39:47
He says as much throughout his word From beginning to end He charges people with violations of his law
01:39:53
He commands people to turn to him And to experience redemption And to obey him and love his law
01:39:59
And with Jesus as the king Which every Christian has to acknowledge With Jesus as the king
01:40:05
With all authority In heaven, and here's what we all miss And on earth
01:40:11
I think we need to begin asking ourselves the question Is the civil magistrate Under the feet of Jesus and under his authority
01:40:17
I say yes to that And I say that the hope is That through the proclamation of the gospel
01:40:23
And the redemption of sinners People will in all those spheres Eventually honor and glorify
01:40:29
God And I hope that we would look to the law of God For the standards of justice Rather than Demand autonomous
01:40:38
Standards And just going back to something you said Before the break In keeping with the
01:40:45
Attempt to not misrepresent Anybody We do want to make a clear
01:40:52
Distinction between Our mutual friend Dr. James R. White And Theonomy, because he is not a
01:40:58
Theonomist He's a non -millennialist And a Reformed Baptist, but I just wanted to make sure Our listeners didn't think
01:41:04
Due to your mention Of him earlier, that he was a Theonomist Yeah, Dr.
01:41:09
White and I have had lunch together Meals together, and we've had A little bit of discussion on this
01:41:14
Not a whole lot I know there are distinctions And differences, but For me,
01:41:21
I don't think that Many of us are as far apart on this issue As we might think
01:41:27
For example, what I do You know, I'm a Theonomist And I do point people
01:41:33
At times to some of Dr. White's Messages when he walks Through the law of God and he shows the general
01:41:39
Equity in how it could be applied today I think in those cases We're not far apart at all
01:41:45
There are small differences that do Sometimes really finely devolve down To differences in eschatology and the belief
01:41:51
About the victory of God in history But I don't think all of us are as far apart As we might think on this
01:41:56
I think we're actually pretty consistently together I think a lot of times it's just a matter of Confusion about definitions
01:42:03
Or what are you actually saying And so, you know, for me Fundamentally, I'm More in the stream of Puritan way of thinking in terms of The law of God and the kingdom of God Is victorious in the world
01:42:17
Not everybody's a fan of the Puritans And how they thought about those things I know that I'm more in that stream
01:42:24
And I think we're all much closer Than we think on this issue And I think it's a matter of conversation
01:42:32
We need to start talking more We need to start trying to graciously Understand one another more And I think once that takes place
01:42:38
We're going to find that we're not that far apart Yeah, I just wanted to make sure that that Clarification was made because I don't want
01:42:44
Dr. White Executing me for people thinking That he was a theonomist But this brings up an interesting point
01:42:51
You are indeed a rarity Because not only is it rare For Baptists to be
01:42:59
Postmillennialists But you are a Reformed Baptist Who is also a theonomist Which you must admit is very rare Isn't it?
01:43:07
Um, yeah I suppose it is In modern examples and cases
01:43:13
Look at my Presbyterian friend My friend is in the back right now Laughing right now Through the glass at me
01:43:21
Mark Corp Presby And I love him And I have a great deal of respect for him I mean almost all my heroes are
01:43:26
Presbyterian So he's smiling at me right now Loving this moment It may be a little off In the sense of what's the norm
01:43:34
For a Reformed Baptist But for me And I don't want to be cliche here
01:43:40
And I don't want to try to be High and mighty in this place But for me honestly I believe that the 1689
01:43:48
London Baptist Confession of Faith Is an amazing confession of faith I believe to it, I hold to it
01:43:53
But for me in the end What I'm held captive to Is the scriptures
01:43:59
And while I hold to that confession As premier and amazing and beautiful And consistent
01:44:04
If somebody says well I think that you're off on the confession here I will ultimately say
01:44:09
Well I don't think that I am But I want to hold to the scriptures As supreme
01:44:15
In these discussions Alright let's go to our listener questions At least some of them My name is
01:44:21
Daniel from Sydney, Australia I attend a Reformed Baptist Church And my church and I have looked
01:44:26
Into three major eschatological positions Pre -mill, Post -mill, and Amill Would you agree
01:44:33
That your eschatology position Affirms how you understand All of scripture
01:44:39
And not just Revelation Or other prophetic language In the scriptures
01:44:45
Absolutely, absolutely I actually did not come to a Post -millennial understanding
01:44:51
Of the victory of God in history From a reading of Revelation initially It really was
01:44:57
An overarching Macro view of the scriptures From Genesis to Revelation Of what
01:45:04
God says about the Kingdom of the Messiah That's where this all comes down to It really does, people get confused
01:45:10
Oh it's just so much to take in It's so many things to read And that's true, there are a lot of things to read But it really comes down to just simple questions
01:45:17
And it's really this Did Jesus bring the Kingdom In the first century
01:45:23
On time and as planned Did that actually take place And if the answer is yes Then You have to move to the next question
01:45:31
And that is this What does the Old and New Testament say About the victory of that Kingdom in history
01:45:36
And that's real time, on Earth In the physical world What does it actually say And I think that if you can answer those two questions
01:45:44
With the scriptures in front of you Obviously brothers and sisters Want to debate on this issue But I do believe
01:45:49
That if you lay the scriptures out And the text out You would see that not only did Jesus actually bring the Kingdom And it is actually a present reality
01:45:56
Where he's reigning now But the Bible tells us I think the full picture
01:46:02
Of what it's going to look like When Jesus actually completes that Kingdom Victory And delivers the
01:46:08
Kingdom over to the Father When he's done And I think we can't really get away from the fact That it's total victory And it includes the transformation of not just individuals
01:46:17
But the world itself And so my view Is I think
01:46:23
Not coming from a picture of just simply Revelation Because here's the thing There are post -millennialists
01:46:28
That do disagree on certain Aspects or components of the Book of Revelation Some are more
01:46:35
Historicist in a sense Some are more partial preterists So there are post -millennialists that do have disagreements
01:46:41
On how exactly do we interpret rightly The Book of Revelation But the overarching foundational issues
01:46:48
Are what we hold to And I think So my view Would be starting in Genesis And moving all the way through What does
01:46:55
God say about the Kingdom It's timing, it's nature, and it's victory Just before I go to the second question
01:47:01
From a listener Would you find yourself more in the partial preterist camp Or the futurist camp
01:47:07
Partial preterist I do believe that Matthew 24 Mark 13, Luke 21
01:47:13
The Olivet Discourse of Parallel Passages Do refer To the destruction of Jerusalem And the final dissolution
01:47:21
Of the Old Covenant Order It was defunct at the Cross and the Resurrection of course
01:47:27
But there were parts and pieces Still hanging around And a lot of the passages that refer to the coming of God The coming of Christ in judgment
01:47:35
Are referring to the very soon coming of Christ In judgment upon that generation The destruction of the
01:47:41
Old Covenant Order Completely, all of its parts and pieces Hebrews refers to it as The shaking of the heavens and the earth
01:47:47
That I believe is what that's about And I believe that Revelation is a book Of victory for first century
01:47:54
Pre -fall Of Jerusalem saints The book comes As an encouragement that Jesus is about To act, he's about to come
01:48:03
And he's about to vindicate them and destroy He's going to destroy the harlot He's about to destroy the harlot
01:48:09
Which is what God called Israel As a covenant breaker in the Old Testament repeatedly He's coming to destroy the harlot
01:48:15
Who is persecuting the saints And the beast, Rome, is about To turn on that harlot and destroy her
01:48:21
So you really have, I think, the vision In Revelation of the soon coming Judgment of Jesus upon the covenant breakers
01:48:28
To make way for the Bride of Christ to invite the world To come and join We have
01:48:33
Jim in Troy, Missouri Since Israel was not Commanded to enforce
01:48:39
Their borders, do we in America Have the right to enforce Our borders
01:48:45
And by enforce, I mean We don't let anyone cross Our borders unless they are already
01:48:51
A citizen or they Have a temporary visa That's Jim in Troy, Missouri asked that question
01:48:59
Yeah, I think that question Could be answered in a Number of different ways I know it's a short time we have today
01:49:06
So I will say this That what the law of God does command us To do
01:49:12
Is to make sure that we love And we offer help And hope to those who sojourn among us
01:49:19
And to the strangers among us So here's what we know about the law of God Specifically regarding foreigners or strangers among us
01:49:25
Is that we are to do good to them We are to love them We are to give them justice To make sure that they are protected
01:49:31
And so what is unquestionable About the law of God with respect to the alien among us
01:49:36
Is to do justice to them Love them, to care for the sojourner And the alien among us
01:49:42
When it comes to questions About how does it work out in a modern Society with the
01:49:48
Government looking to the law of God as A standard of justice, I think that It would definitely be
01:49:53
Very different than we see right now It would be different in terms Of, wouldn't be
01:50:00
Restrictive borders, absolutely not But I do believe you would Definitely have the law of God giving you
01:50:06
Specific direction regarding Quarantine The things for disease And those sorts of things that we didn't see
01:50:14
Early on in America's history With Ellis Island and stuff like that We even saw issues of quarantine
01:50:19
And protecting the public from people who might have diseases I think those things are consistent Our current position
01:50:26
On immigration and things like that Is definitely newer In terms of how we have done
01:50:32
Immigration in the world in the past Particularly even how the church Functioned and faced the issue of Immigration, it is different How we handle it today
01:50:41
I do believe that you can make a very good Case that the way that we handle aliens And sojourners among us
01:50:48
Is in many ways unbiblical and unjust But again that's a very very broad Discussion and I think there's
01:50:54
People that have written Just excellent stuff on this I would look up any kind of Theonomic commentary on immigration
01:51:02
I know guys like Kenneth Gentry Definitely have a particular view Of how we should make sure we apply
01:51:08
Those principles and yet offer protection To society which is also the protection Of human life Obeying the commandment to protect and preserve
01:51:16
Human life I would definitely look into the foundational Issues and I think the main thing
01:51:22
For us to do is look at God's law To say what does he say is just Regarding how we handle
01:51:28
The alien among us and the sojourner among us And we work everything out from that particular point We do have
01:51:34
A listener who wishes to Remain anonymous from New Jersey Who says
01:51:40
There is a lot going on That shows the faithful church is under Siege The recent
01:51:46
Supreme Court of the United States Decision militant Islam Economic foundations
01:51:52
Chipping away with debt How does a post -millennial Eschatology reconcile
01:51:58
These things to its hope For kingdom advance Very very very good question
01:52:04
And I think one of the I think one of the strongest Emotionally laden
01:52:11
Arguments against post -millennialism Is this particular question And I think it comes from a misunderstanding
01:52:17
Of what post -millennialists Actually believe And I think when we say Well look around us things are getting bad
01:52:23
Islam is on the rise You've got our economic situation Completely collapsing By the way I would say the reason it's collapsing
01:52:29
Is because we don't look at God's word For his standards of economics But that's another issue But what's going on Like we seem to be persecuted in many respects
01:52:37
And I would say Looking at this question in that way Is taking too small of a sampling
01:52:43
Of history In other words if you were to go backwards just a bit A couple hundred years ago
01:52:48
You ask the question How many Christians were in North America Just a couple hundred years ago
01:52:53
How many Christians And we have millions of Christians now In our nation that love Jesus Love the gospel
01:52:59
And you ask the question also Like things are getting bad I would say well think about what you're asking
01:53:05
You're saying things seem to be getting worse But you probably have In your library ten
01:53:10
Bibles Leather bound in your library You go to church and you pass five churches On the way
01:53:17
You have relatively good Freedom in America at the moment And again I think the freedom that we're losing Is as a result of not obeying
01:53:23
God's law But I think it's too small of a sampling Of history and listen Post -millennialism does not say That it's only upward progress with no suffering
01:53:31
Absolutely not There's going to be trial There's going to be suffering There's going to be moments
01:53:36
Where a nation like ours That essentially was in covenant with God Breaks covenant with God And then
01:53:42
God brings his sanctions upon that nation Because of where they're going God does deal with nations
01:53:48
And he does punish nations That's clear in scripture And so I think what we see in history Is an upward movement
01:53:54
And again because the Bible tells us That's what's going to happen It's leaven that permeates the loaf of dough It's all enemies under Jesus' feet
01:54:01
But it's going to come with suffering It's going to come with moments of great disobedience And God acting to discipline or to judge
01:54:08
It's going to come where it's a mustard seed To a large tree It's going to be moments of growth
01:54:14
And moments of failure It's going to look like Corruption and doctrine And then reformation
01:54:21
And then it's going to look like A nation that Obeys God and then maybe
01:54:27
Sins and turns away from God And God acts in judgment And he brings reformation and revival And there's transformation again
01:54:33
If you look Chris at a map These are out right now It's very very cool I wish I could point people to it
01:54:38
But it's amazing to look at If you look at a history of Christianity In the world And sort of a map
01:54:44
That shows what it looked like as it grew You see it looks like a balloon That is inflating
01:54:50
And then deflating and then boom Big inflating and then deflating And then big inflating and then deflating
01:54:56
I mean if you think about this Chris It's crazy I know you know this Because you're really old
01:55:06
If you think about the fact that I heard the gospel for the first time in the late 90's And when
01:55:12
I I never went to church I wasn't raised in a Christian home But when I was in the church
01:55:17
I remember friends asking me To go on missions trips with them To smuggle
01:55:22
Bibles into China And I remember thinking about it I might do this And I remember them telling me
01:55:27
You might actually get arrested You might actually go to jail for the rest of your life We were talking in the late 90's
01:55:34
About smuggling Bibles into China And you might lose your life Or you might go to jail for good smuggling
01:55:39
Bibles into China And the crazy thing is It is 2015 And there was an article that recently went out
01:55:45
That said that China Is on it's way In the next 10 or 15 years
01:55:50
Becoming the most Christian nation That's insane Who would have ever thought
01:55:56
That would have taken place And so the progress of the gospel Is a steady progress upward
01:56:02
With difficulty along the way But here's the point Where does it end All I would ask our brothers and sisters to do is this
01:56:09
Read 1 Corinthians 15 Read Paul's history of the Christian faith
01:56:14
Going forward And what he says Is that Jesus is reigning now Until he's put every enemy under his feet
01:56:21
And the very last one is death And that's when Jesus delivers the kingdom over To the
01:56:26
Father When every enemy is destroyed And everything is put into subjection So what do I know That despite my circumstances
01:56:33
Not doing newspaper exegesis The Bible says Jesus wins
01:56:41
Amen Jesus does win That we can all agree on Now years ago
01:56:46
I remember hearing distinctly A Calvinistic Baptist Who was speaking against Theonomy At a conference
01:56:52
He was bringing up the Puritans And their abuse of power against Baptists And so on Not to mention the
01:57:01
Magisterial reformers Against the Anabaptists You as a
01:57:07
Baptist And a Theonomist Is your view of The civil government
01:57:13
During the millennium Is this going to extend Is it going to extend towards heretics
01:57:19
Which depending upon who's in power You might be one Because you're a Baptist And as I mentioned earlier
01:57:26
Since you are a rarity amongst Theonomists The vast majority Either being
01:57:31
Presbyterian Or Reformed Anglican or something How do you respond to that Yeah that's a good question
01:57:38
A very important one And I would say this As a foundation Just to start the discussion
01:57:43
When we look in history At failures in regard to the law of God I want to say that those failures
01:57:51
Are so limited And far between Compared to the failures
01:57:57
Of a man -centered government An autonomous Non -God -loving government
01:58:03
It's not even comparable Like for example Someone would say Look under a Puritan style of government They did this stuff
01:58:09
This is evil This is bad I want to say yeah And look how they were not being consistent with Scripture at that point They were acting in contradiction
01:58:16
To their standards Their professed standards But look These five people
01:58:24
Or ten people that died here or there Compare that to 55 million babies In 40 years
01:58:31
Compare the failures Of Christians Who didn't get it right By actually not acting consistently with the
01:58:38
Scriptures To a government today That oppresses the poor And the widow Does not give justice to the orphan
01:58:45
The system of government today That slaughters babies wholesale Daily 3 ,000 babies
01:58:52
Murdered in our nation today When you listen to this broadcast By the end of the day 3 ,000 babies will die
01:58:58
And I ask the question Are we to look at a system of government That attempts to look to God's law
01:59:05
To appeal to His law as a standard Or are we to just say God's law is a term of justice
01:59:10
And we just let justice run rampant And people become victimized I mean I think it's very clear
01:59:16
We need to look to God's standard Now watch I'm going to say this It does not mean when we say
01:59:21
We look to God's law as a standard That it is a complete bringing over the law of God And dropping it on society