Aug. 24, 2015 Show with John M. Otis & Jeff Durbin on “Theonomic & Reconstructionist Postmillenialism” [End Times 6-Day Marathon]

Psalm 110, Christ’s Present Reign, and the Hope of Postmillennial Victory

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 24th day of August 2015.

And there's no better way to start off the beginning than with the end, as far as I'm concerned, the end of the world or the end of things as we know it. And today we are going to be discussing post-millennialism and especially, and in particular, the theonomic reconstructionist variety of post-millennialism.

This is the final day of our eschatology marathon or our ten times marathon. Last week we addressed amillennialism on Monday. We addressed pre-tribulational premillennialism on Tuesday. We addressed historic premillennialism on Wednesday.

We addressed the pre-wrath rapture version of eschatology on Thursday. On Friday we began a series, a two-part series, on post-millennialism and we were addressing more of the futurist view in part one of that discussion.

In part two we discussed more of the preterist view or the partial preterist view of post-millennialism. And that will have some commonality with our guest today. Today we are discussing the theonomic and reconstructionist understanding of post-millennialism and we have two guests to do that.

The first is my dear friend of many years, Pastor John M. Otis, who is the author of Preaching and the Victory of the Gospel. He's also founder of Triumphant Publications and the author of many other books.

And the second guest at the top of the second hour will be Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona, who is also the founder and director of Apologia Radio and Apologia Television, which is going to be launching a new television series in the very near future if it hasn't happened already, on the National Religious Broadcasters Network.

But first of all, it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, my dear friend, John Otis.

It's always good to be with you, Chris. I don't know what's going to happen next.

Well, it couldn't be according to your eschatology. And I want to thank you also for arranging that wonderful interview that I had with Hannah Overton, which is now archived on the Iron Sharpens Iron website for any of you to hear.

Hannah Overton, the Christian woman who was wrongly and falsely accused and convicted of capital murder after the accidental death of her foster son, Andrew, and who, thanks be to God and His mercy and grace, was exonerated of all charges and freed from prison after seven years of incarceration.

And you could go to IronSharpensIronRadio .com and hear that program. And John Otis was the key person involved in introducing me to Hannah years ago, actually, when we started doing programs on her case.

And it was just a joy to finally interview her in person as a free woman. But thank you for that, John. You bet. And we are discussing, again, post-millennialism, but a different stripe than we addressed last Friday.

First of all, give us your overview of post-millennialism before we get into specifically the theonomic and reconstructionist aspect.

Of your view. Unfortunately, I was not at John Jefferson Davis on Friday, correct? That's.

Right. That was for the first hour. John Jefferson Davis had more of a futurist understanding of the post-millennial position. And the second hour, Fred Pugh, who is actually a Reformed Baptist and post-millennialist, had more of the partial preterist view, although they had a lot in common to say.

And neither one are theonomists.

Okay. Well, generally speaking, when we think of post-millennialism, the biblical view in heaven, basically, every amillennialist, millennial kingdom, a period of time, not limited to only the period of time stretching forward from the apostles to the end of the world, whenever that will come, according to the scriptures, Jesus said, of that day and that hour, no man knows, not even he and his humanity knows of that hour, but the Father.

But the millennial reign, Jesus putting down all of his enemies under his foot in conformity with Psalm 110, which the apostle Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost. That passage, Psalm 110, is the most quoted psalm in the New Testament.

Peter said, on the day of Pentecost, what they heard and saw in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised his disciples, he says, is the evidence that, as David said, that Jesus, in terms of post-millennialism, the real kingdom is before the second coming.

There will be a genuine, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ at the end of the world. But it will be, he will come back to a world that has been conquered, where his enemies have been put, a general post-millennialism.

Now, it's interesting that you did use a term, the second coming, which I use and which amillennialists use and even most premillennialists use, but as a partial preterist. I've spoken with some partial preterists who object to the term second coming because it's not in the Scriptures and because there were previous comings to his final coming.

Like, for instance, the Christ's coming in judgment over Jerusalem at the destruction of the temple in A .D. 70. Do you consider that a coming of Christ?

Yes. You know, I believe a little bit of, to that coming, at the end of the world, the world will be rejuvenated. All the dead will be raised, according to Matthew 25, to the second coming. There shouldn't be any problem with this culminating.

It does have a very significant coming. I don't have any problem with that world.

You don't have any problem with it because I'm assuming that the second coming, as well as the first, are the only times that Christ came to this earth physically, bodily, and visibly to all.

Correct. Correct.

Okay. Yeah, that's what I was trying to communicate to my friend, who is also a theonomist and a partial preterist, but he totally rejected the use of the term. I'm not sure why. And he was not a hyper-preterist.

But let me, since we brought up preterism, and I did have Fred Pugh more briefly define it because that wasn't his main focus last Friday, but if you could also give our listeners a definition of preterism and partial preterism.

Well, partial preterism and hyper-preterism reject...

Yeah, and what makes everything confusing with regard to that term is that both partial preterists and hyper-preterists often describe themselves simply as preterists. Correct?

Um...

Yeah, well, I have heard and read other partial preterists and post-millennialists just describing it as a preterist view. But now, what do you believe, to repeat yourself, or perhaps maybe more fully explain, what do you believe are the only things left to be fulfilled in biblical prophecy?

Well, there is... I mean, and that is very...

Okay. In fact, I'm going to repeat our email address in case anybody listening would like to join us on the air with a question for John Otis about post-millennialism, about theonomy, about reconstructionism, about partial preterism, or about anything involving the end times, last days, eschatology, etc.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

Okay. Psalm 110, beginning at verse 1, says to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make thine enemies a footstool. The Lord will stretch forth thy strong scepter from Zion, saying, Rule in the midst of thy people, we'll volunteer for thee.

What Jesus is doing, he is presently reigning, he is stretching forth his strong scepter. A scepter is a rule in the midst of thy people. Thy people will volunteer freely in the day that Peter, the apostle, said, Jesus is reigning, is that he's poured forth his spirit.

The apostles, a clear tongue, they shared the gospel. There's a great sermon. It says, brethren, he says, what shall we do? It says, they were pierced to the heart. Peter says, repent. Be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

That day, 3 ,000 people, no one can ever come to Christ. Jesus stretched forth his scepter, and 3 ,000 people came to. Some of his enemies have been put under his feet. Now, that is 1 Corinthians chapter 15.

We'll pick up here. For since by a man came death, by a man came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order, Christ the firstfruits.

After that, those who are Christ's at his coming. Then comes the end, when he delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when he has abolished all, and all his enemies under his feet will be abolished.

All things in subjection under his feet is accepted. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son also will be subjected to the one who subjected all things to him. Now, the importance. If I were just to pick out one passage that definitively rules out all forms of premillennialism, it's this passage right here.

Just reign until he has abolished. It definitively takes place. He's not going to come back under his feet. He's put all his enemies. So until all his enemies necessarily mean. Some people have a misconception of postmillennialism, thinking that it says that every single human being, for example, which is a messianic passage there in Isaiah 11.

For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. The gospel will have been so pervasive, as Hebrews 8 says, everybody will turn to their neighbor and they will know the Lord.

It will be so pervasive. Now, that doesn't mean that Satan is still not operative. In the nations, Jesus' reign, the spiritual reign, the preaching of the gospel, the divine weapons of warfare, Satan's kingdom is assaulted and overcome.

What has not yet transpired is all the nations have not yet bowed their knees to King Jesus. We're talking about, we don't know how many.

So you would disagree with a previous guest that we had who was a premillennialist who made the claim in opposition to postmillennialism that it basically is teaching a straight upward arrow of progression in the future, that things just progressively and constantly get better and better and better.

You don't believe that?

What we see in the Bible, downward periods of persecution. Ascending. But when you look overall...

Now, I know that the amillennialists do not have as optimistic a view of things that will take place here on this earth during the millennium. But do you believe that, like most amillennialists do, do you believe that we are in the millennium or at least the beginning of the millennium now?

For instance, most amillennialists believe it began with the work of Christ on Calvary and the gospel spreading throughout the nations.

I would agree with that. You know, in many respects, with a few minor differences, the commission will be a change. That's why we ought to be optimistic. These are the promises, scriptural promises, that must take place.

When you do a whole study, it is one of victory. It's not one of defeat. A lot of people quote verse 18. Verse 18 says Jesus came in 19 and 20. The nations are going to be discipled. It's because of verse 18.

Jesus says, I have all the authority. And I've said this to people. If you have all the power in the universe, who's going to stop you? Nobody. And that is very consistent with Daniel chapter 7. In fact, let me just read that because I think Daniel chapter 7.

While you're looking for that, I'm going to repeat our email address. It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. If you have a question for our guest, John Otis, on post-millennialism and theonomy, please give us your first name, city and state, and country if outside the U .S.

Okay, I have Daniel 7, 13. I kept looking in the night vision. The clouds of heaven, one like a son of man, was coming up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And all the peoples, nations, and men might serve him.

His dominion is an everlasting, not pass away. In distinction from my premillennial brethren, words are very important. It says he came up to the Ancient of Days. This is an ascension. This is not a descending.

This is an ascension. Dominion, power. That passage is very consistent. 15. In this regard, no one can stop you. By the way, can we pick up on the William Kalper or Cooper sermon.

And whatever else you wanted to bring up before? Could you bring that up after the break. Because we have to go to a break right now.

All right, sure will.

All right, great. Well, we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for John Otis on post-millennialism and theonomy after these messages, so don't go away.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted. He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God-centered, Christ-exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid-ground-books .com. That's solid-ground-books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thriven Financial is pleased to support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. While others see money as a goal, Thriven sees it as a tool for serving God, family, and community. For more than a century, Thriven has helped its nearly 2 .5 million Christian members make financial decisions that reflect their values while also helping them live generously.

Find out more by contacting me, Mike Gallagher, at 717 -254 -6433. Thriven Financial. Connecting faith and finances for good.

Lending faith, finances, and generosity. That's the Thriven story.

I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, the New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in-depth study. Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation.

The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the NASB is known for. The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible. Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues.

From compact to giant print Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com. Trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today. Go to nasbible .com, that's nasbible .com.

Tired of bop store Christianity? Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in-depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island. Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times. 631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us. That's wrbc .us. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns.

And we are speaking with John Otis on Post-Millennialism and on Theonomy and Reconstructionism. And before the break, John, you had mentioned a sermon by William Cowper, but you also wanted to bring up some scriptural texts as well.

Well, this sermon may be a good Theonomy. In 1740, William Cowper, it's not Cowper, but Cowper?

Right.

William Cowper in 1740 preached a sermon before the joint. In fact, he was invited to do this. His sermon title, The Honors of Christ Demanded in His Text, was Psalm 2, 10 -12. And here's what Psalm 2, 10 -12 says,.

Be wise, therefore, all you kings, be instructed, you judges of the earth, serve the Lord with fear, rejoice with trembling, kiss the Son lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little.

Find this on the Internet. Samuel Cowper will become a famous preacher during the War of America. In this, he addresses a great godly man. During his first preaching tour throughout New England, when Whitefield came to Boston, Jonathan Belcher, the governor of Massachusetts, escorted him around to all of his preaching engagements in the governor's care.

The Bible, therefore, which is the great statute book of heaven, must be consulted by the rulers of a people, and they must frame their administration by the general laws there laid down. And then he goes on to say,.

As they rule by Christ, so are they obliged to rule for Him, therefore to protect and encourage the practice of His holy religion, to guard and defend God's sacred name, day, Sunday, and institutions from the insults of those who openly profane and trample upon them, and to restrain and punish those vices and immoralities which are as contrary to the laws of Christ as they are to the welfare of societies, for the very end purpose of their office is the punishment of evildoers and the praise of them that do well.

And then he says,. In a word, they, the rulers, should openly profess the religion of Christ, publicly espouse His cause, zealously promote it as far as ever their authority and influence will reach, and should strenuously set themselves against everything that is of Massachusetts, Chris.

Massachusetts 17.

And obviously you're talking about, for those of you who love some of the hymns by William Cooper, that's a different William Cooper from England.

Right.

And he spelled his name Kalper, but actually it was pronounced Cooper. But anyway, if you could continue what you were saying.

Well, it's just that, and then one of the other greats of that time, he lived to preach the sermon in war. His sermon title was this. This was a sermon preached in the mediatorial kingdom. He also preached in that sermon, he is thoroughly, but we're talking about this.

Yeah, and define theonomy again. I know you gave a very limited definition of it, but if you could define theonomy and distinguish it between that and Reconstructionism.

Well, he wrote a book called He Says Autonomy. Theonomy is, we will amend obedience, only legislate the issue.

Exactly.

But you know, you see.

Right, but obviously other post-millennialists object to that.

So, now, in chapter 19 of the Westminster Confession, it distinguishes between three parts of God's laws. The moral law of God, the ceremonial law, and the judicial law. In section 3, besides this law, commonly called moral law of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits, partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws are now abrogated under the New Testament.

Then section 4 reads,. To them also as a body politic He gave sundry judicial laws, which expire together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now further than the general equity required, and that not only in regard to the matter contained, but also in respect to the authority of God, the Creator, who gave it, neither does Christ and the gospel in any way dissolve, but much more strengthen this obligation.

And interestingly, God gave, for the sake that I didn't come to destroy the law. So, the key there...

Yeah, you have people who adhere to the Westminster and people who adhere to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, which is nearly a duplicate of that, who love God's law, and they believe that the Decalogue is a perpetual law that will forever be God's law, ruling over the people of this earth, and that obviously we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone and Christ alone, but we still have God's law to keep, although we can never do it perfectly, which reminds us of our sin and our inability to achieve salvation on our own, other than through the blood of Christ.

But the... Obviously, the Presbyterians and the Baptists, who are Reformed and yet not theonomic, believe that the moral law is what carries through to the New Covenant, and the specific civil law and penal codes of the Old Covenant are not to be applied today, because of the nation of Israel not existing right now, as far as the one that had a covenant with God and had a theonomic government or a theocracy in the Old Covenant.

Go ahead.

Yeah, well, here's the thing. The key is, what did the Westminster delegates mean by that key phrase that that law, that judicial law, is not binding except... Now, what's interesting is, if you look at the delegates, they discuss what they mean by general equity.

For example, one of the best... They need to read Theonomy and the Westminster, and he has done in the delegates to the... Let me just read the introduction. Fuller says,.

He says,.

Samuel Rutherford argues that the capital punishments for crimes against the moral law, i .e. idolatry, were not just judicial laws at all, but moral. George Gillespie on judicial law punished a moral crime.

It was binding, even though still judicial. The two views lead to identical results, the death penalty for idolatry, sodomy, bestiality. Theonomists, he says, have generally used the same terminology as Gillespie, dividing the judicial laws...

By general equity, what... Greg Bonce, he says, for example, you have a specific example... Of how to apply the Ten Commandments. For example, on the ground, what Greg Bonce... The general principle in Israel was a nation...

For example, by railing around your rooftop, we may not... Your houses are... If you did, why do you put a railing? Why are you in your swimming pool? Someone's falling in your pool. And therefore, he says, general principle...

The accusation constantly comes up that theonomists are really trying to establish a Christian version of Sharia law in the future, anyway. That is, they are viewed as having as a goal in the future that the church will establish Sharia law only, obviously, with specifically the commandments of God in the Old Testament and new.

If you could respond to that.

Well, I read a brief of Jesus and his law. Did he advocate any law? Matthew 5 said, your teaching... And they always try to pit Jesus against the Mosaic Law. If they ever could find Jesus saying something against the Mosaic Law, they would call him a false prophet.

They would have been right. But he said, no, I came to fulfill the law. And he said, anybody teaching anything lesser than this shall be considered less of the kingdom of heaven. So, and then it's interesting...

For example, to Matthew 15, Jesus himself... That's a great passage of Jesus bringing forward the penal sanctions of the Mosaic Law into the New Testament era. Pharisees had accused Jesus, why don't you teach your apostles to observe the tradition of the elders and washing their hands?

And Jesus says, let me ask you a question. Why do you negate the law of God for the sake of your traditions? And then he quotes the law about cursing your father and mother. Jesus in Matthew 15 says, he who curses his father and mother ought to be put to death.

Right there, Jesus is sanctioning the penal sanction of the Mosaic Legislation and used it in his argument against the Pharisees. And then he got all over the Pharisees. He says, not only that, you are...

So in other words, you believe that the penal codes of Old Covenant Israel will be established and should be established in the Millennial Kingdom through the Church, whereby homosexuals and adulterers and so on will be executed.

Not the Church. Let me put it this way. The Church has no... In a coming time, Christian... We have to ask ourselves, God says, should murderers be... God says, always come down to Christ. It's either theonomy or autonomy.

We have to ask ourselves, why would we not want to enact the penal sanctions if God is the one who authorized these laws?

Couldn't you say the same thing about the ceremonial law, the dietary laws, and all the other things? If God is the one who ordained those laws in the Old Covenant, couldn't you make the argument that they should be applied in the new as well because God designed them?

No. There is a major distinction between the ceremonial laws. Sacrifice... They were abrogated. But the writers of the Confession did not say that about the judicial law. They no longer continue except the general principle.

And that's what we're saying. The general principle still holds forward.

So, in other words, you're saying that although the church is not going to be carrying out the penal code, the governments that will be in the Millennium are going to be supported by the church and applauded by the church for doing so.

Yes, I would say that. Is that a premise, Colin, to... People didn't have a problem. They didn't have a problem with... It's only because... It's only within the last century that the church has become...

What does God's word say? What does His law say?

Well, John, actually, we have to go right now, but please quickly give your website for Triumph and Publications. Please give your website for Triumph and Publications because we're out of time, brother.

Yes. My publishing website with videos for free of church, kingdom, and eschatology where I go into detail post-millennial eschatology and 17 lectures. Just go to my website for free.

All right, great. Well, we look forward to having you back, brother, and thank you so much for being our guest today on Our Intrepid Zion.

Thank you, Chris.

All right, God bless you. We're going to go to a break right now, so please email us your questions, and we'll be right back, so don't go away.

Lynbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lynbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service.

It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing. We're a diverse family of all ages.

Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ.

In fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lynbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Lynbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402. Or visit lynbrookbaptist .org. That's lynbrookbaptist .org.

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries. The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in-depth study. Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the NASB is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation.

The NASB offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the NASB is known for. The NASB is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible. Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues.

From compact to giant print Bibles, find an NASB that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com. Trust, discover, and enjoy the NASB for yourself today. Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com.

Tired of box store Christianity? Of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert? Do you long for a more traditional and reverent style of worship? And how about the preaching?

Perhaps you've begun to think that in-depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island. Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times. 631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us. That's wrbc .us. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns.

And if you've just tuned us in, this is part two of our two-hour interview today on Theonomic Postmillennialism, also known as Reconstructionism. And we had for the first hour John Otis, author of Preaching the Victory of the Gospel and founder of Triumphant Publications.

And now we begin our second hour with Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church in Tempe, Arizona. And he's also the founder of Apologia Radio and Apologia TV. And we're going to hear more about the launching of his new television program on the National Religious Broadcasters Network.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharp as Iron, Jeff Durbin.

What's up, Chris? Thanks for having me back, brother.

Hey, thanks for being on the program. And let's hear more about Apologia TV and the NRB television network.

Well, God's been really, really good to us this past year. The Apologia Radio itself, as a podcast, has doubled in its listenership over the last couple of months. And that's actually a pretty large increase.

We just opened our studio just a few months ago. God gave us the ability to have our own studio and so we can produce our own podcast from here and also our own television program and just a bunch of other stuff we can do as well.

But he gave us the ability to do it. It's only been, gosh, it seems like maybe three months or so. And we have signed a contract. We are officially scheduled to be on the NRB network nationwide in October twice a week.

I believe Thursday and Saturday are the days that we're going to be on.

Well, I guess I should consider myself a prophet because, as you know, I left a lengthy voicemail message for you after the first time seeing the broadcast you did with Dr. James R. White, our mutual friend at Alpha Omega Ministries, and also Michael Brown when you were doing a response to the Supreme Court decision legalizing same-sex marriage.

And I told you, this has got to be on NRB. You did such a phenomenal job, not only because of the content, but because of the graphics, the camera work, everything about the program was more professional than the majority of things I've seen on television, perhaps especially Christian television.

Well, I'm really glad to hear you say that and grateful. And a lot of that has to go, of course, to God's unique gifting in Marcus Pittman. He moved out here, gosh, what was it, Marcus, what was that, April?

April. Marcus moved out here in April. I'm in our studio right now. He's nodding through the glass. April, he moved out here, and since then we've just been able to change the quality of what we do, which we want to do everything for the glory of God, and we want to make sure the media that we're putting out is on par and even better than what the world puts out.

And so we're doing our best with, at the time, limited resources, but we're just excited about what God is going to continue to do as we're able to even get better technology and things like that. But that blessed me, because Dr. White's a gift.

He's a friend, and he's one of my heroes of the faith, and Dr. Brown is a gift, and I love those men dearly, and being able to do that was something we really thought was important, and we got a lot of really great feedback, just like yours.

And I wasn't able to get back to you when you sent that message to me. I was in Kauai, actually. We're trying to do a church plant right now in Kauai, so I wasn't able to call you back to let you know, hey, David, we're already on.

That's quite all right. And obviously, I have a lot to go, or a long way to go, before I match any kind of professional quality as far as the technical aspect of my show, but that is something that I hope to eventually achieve as well.

Right now, we have a very humble situation here in the studio, but God willing, that will improve, and we already have many generous people who want to see that happen.

What you have, though, is you have a quality product. It's okay if the audio is a little scratchy. We've been through all those same things.