The Roman Catholic Controversy Part 13

Apologetics and the Growing Roman Catholic Interest in Defense of the Faith

Lead us in our instruction help us Lord to see the truth of your word and help us Lord also to father not just to fill our heads with knowledge but father give us a right heart in response to love Roman Catholics enough to share the truth of Jesus with them.

And Lord we pray God that you would put individuals in our paths so that this information could be of benefit not just for us to again fill ourselves with knowledge but Lord to put these things into practice for the glory of your son's name.

Amen. Right now a question I have for you is where have we left off. I don't know where you guys last went last time I was here. We're in chapter 8. Did we do chapter 8. So we're in. We're on chapter 9.

Oh we didn't answer works. We are yeah. So you guys are all the way in chapter 10. That's good. So I hope you guys been doing the reading. You know it's interesting this is actually I did this book maybe 10 years ago.

This book has been out since like the 90s I think. And I did this book 10 years ago at a previous church where we had a lot of Roman Catholics. And out of just curiosity how many of you guys have either Roman Catholic friends or family that you may be semi or regularly speak to raise your hand.

A lot of us do. I mean you know Roman Catholicism is the largest religion in the world by just sheer numbers. It's the largest religion in America. It's the largest in the world. The only thing that rivals it is you know Islam and so Islam isn't quite as popular here but is getting ground.

The reason why this is so important guys is because we all know Roman Catholics many of us especially if you come from a Hispanic background or an Asian background. Maybe you have Roman Catholics in your family.

The two largest religious groups in my family from both sides would be Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics. You almost can't get any more different than that. You have kind of this natural inclination of people who are Roman Catholics converting the Jehovah's Witnesses in a lot of communities that I've been a part of because Roman Catholicism doesn't do a very good job of explaining or defending their beliefs.

And if you ever meet a Roman Catholic you probably know that they don't really know the Bible awfully well. But I've noticed this trend that things are actually starting to change. There are more Roman Catholics who are now embracing apologetics on their end of the spectrum.

Christians in the evangelical world have embraced apologetics for many years now. So we were kind of used to you know kind of interfaith dialogues and understanding other religious backgrounds a little bit more.

You know the one who popularized modern apologetics was Dr. Walter Martin. I'm not sure if you ever heard of Dr. Walter Martin before anyone here. Excellent apology. I would say he is. He was the apologist of the 20th century.

He died in 1989 and he wrote a series of books with his most famous one being the Kingdom of the Colts where he obviously writes kind of an expose on many of the religious groups movements at the time.

He was one of the first people to sound the alarm within the evangelical church about groups such as Mormonism Adventism Jehovah's Witnesses Christadelphians others and bring into the forefront Christian apologetics into the mainstream.

In the 1950s when he began his ministry people wouldn't even publish him. He had a hard time getting published because it was it was seen as a non-issue. At that time Jehovah's Witnesses only had about 200 ,000 members.

By the time that he died in 1989 there was over 5 million right. And so people were asleep at the wheel within the evangelical church and so. But now we kind of have this mindset of okay apologetics is good for a long time pastors and and people within the evangelical community kind of looked at apologetics kind of with suspicion but now we've mostly embraced it.

The same transition is happening in Roman Catholicism. Roman Catholics have never been that great at apologetics because their go-to is usually if you disagree with them we'll just anathematize you right.

Anyone know what that word means to anathemize to damn to curse. You know essentially it's just yeah it's their way of saying we don't like what you're saying we don't. You know you're wrong. You're contradicting Roman Church.

So we're gonna label you yeah. Great question. So apologetics comes from the Greek word apologia which means to make a defense is where we get the English word apology. When we think of apology in the English language we usually think of something that's like okay I did something wrong so I have to apologize.

Right. That's not quite the connotation of the of the English word in its original use or of course of the Greek where we get the Greek derivative of in apologia it really means to make a defense right.

So if we're going to apologize it's the act of defending. So we use it a little bit differently now in modern English where we would say to make an apology is to is to admit to something and and try rectifying it in that way.

And and so there is a sense in which that's still true in apologetics where we are rectifying something but it's not because of a fault it's because if it's a defense of a truth. Right. And so apologetics is just the act of defending the Christian faith.

2 Peter 3:15 and the Call to Make a Defense

Yeah. So second second Peter 315 Peter says he uses the Greek word apology to make a defense sanctify Christ is Lord in your hearts always ready to make a defense for the hope that lies within you in doing so with gentleness and humility.

Right. So we want to approach apologetics of a sense of humility respect and reverence. So we are to make a defense an apology for the Christian faith. We're seeing that even now with a Roman Catholicism.

And one of the biggest areas in which I'm seeing this in Roman Catholicism today is their attack on the doctrine of justification. Okay this is an area in which lots of great debates have happened. But that's gonna be also the topic of today's lesson is again in chapter 10 is the issue of justification.

Justification by Faith Alone Versus Roman Catholic Infusion

Now it's important that we realize how great of a difference there is between the Roman understanding of justification and the Christian understanding of justification. And there were actually three major views of justification.

Anyone aware of that. Anyone can maybe spell that out for us. I wish I had a whiteboard right now. So justification in the Christian sense. Let's let's define that first. Okay. So and our understanding as reformed Christians what is justification.

I love that you use that term imputation when you wouldn't know what that word means. It's a fancy word huh. Oh that's love that. So it's it's to be it's it's really it's a think of it like a credit. Right.

So when we talk about imputed righteousness or we talk about justification what we're really saying is that is that you have a deficit. You're bad you've done bad. You know you've charged up that credit card.

You've you've run a deficit and you can't pay it back. It's so such a large deficit there's no way you can pay it back. And so what what. The the only thing that you can do is in that case is the clear bankruptcy.

Right. And that's essentially the doctrine of you know of carnal man that we are fallen broken humans and we're bankrupt spiritually imputed righteousness says crisis paid the debt. So your your your account now can be reckoned as clean as free as paid up paid in full.

And so it's so it's not that you did anything it's not that you paid it. That's not that you mustered up the credit to to to pay that back. But it's rather it was a gift that was given to you was imputed to you it was reckoned to you so that now your account is clean.

So I like using that analogy of credit because really it's it's the it's what the biblical language indicates. There's a deficit in your credit. It's being imputed to you it's going to reckon to is being applied to you and it's not of you it is external.

So the Christian doctrine of justification says you have a spiritual deficit that you cannot pay back. Christ imputes his righteousness his credit in this case being his perfect substitutionary life death and resurrection.

That's the gospel right is the life death birth and resurrection of Christ. So that is applied to you so that you are now credited as righteous. But you are not necessarily completely righteous in every sense of the word whereas other views of justification would say not only is it credited to you but you are actually now righteous.

That's a big difference that's a big distinguishing marker between our understanding of justification and other views of justification including what we see in Rome what we see in Eastern orthodoxy is that other views say not only is it imputed to you not only is it credited to you but now you are actually righteous.

So the word justification and other translation for it could be declared righteous. And so you are declared righteous because it's credit to you. But other views of justification say not only you declared righteous but you are made righteous.

That's right. Yeah Martin Luther always had some good ways of putting things. That's right. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Yeah infusion. Yeah we'll get more into that in a minute. Someone else had a hand up.

Sanctification, Holiness, and the Ongoing Work of the Spirit

Yeah. Yeah. Well you know that's the interesting thing where we've seen a lot of evangelicals especially more so in the holiness movement embrace a form of justification as very similar to that whereas they think and you really find this in Wesleyanism and so Wesleyanism which is the roots of the modern-day holiness movement or Pentecostalism you have this view in which you are it's more in line with their view is sanctification.

So they don't they don't quite lump it together with with justification. They understand there's a distinction. And this is where we would come in as evangelicals and as as as Baptists and say well there is difference we believe in ultimate ultimately we will be made righteous completely.

But that's the process of sanctification not what we find in justification. And so the holiness movement they would attribute that more so the sanctification. But that obviously would start with justification as we would agree on that front.

But they more aligned that with sanctification rightfully. So even though they come to the wrong conclusion and thinking that in this side of eternity we can be completely perfect or sinless we're 1st John chapter 2 verse 1 makes that abundantly clear that you know we still sin.

And because we still sin we have an advocate with the Father the Righteous One Jesus Christ. So any thoughts or questions so far. Okay so here we have some pretty substantial differences. And again it's not that the Christian not that we deny that we can be righteous.

I mean that's that that's the call of Christ is to be righteous. It's the the call the disciple of Christian is to live a holy and righteous life. And so we don't deny that aspect. Rather where do we attribute that to.

We attribute that to the work of the Holy Spirit in the work of sanctification which begins after or you know. Yeah technically after the work of justification you're declared righteous as a result of being declared righteous.

You know you see that in Romans chapter 5 verse 1. Let's turn there for a moment. Notice what it says in verse 1 of Romans 5. Therefore since we have been justified that were justified again is the act of being declared righteous by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Justification brings forth a right standing before God not because of any works that you've done in righteousness Titus 3 5 says. But because of the washing of the renewal of the Holy Spirit. So it's totally an act of God.

So justification is by what act. Justification is by what act. By by faith. It's by faith since we have been justified by faith now it works. So again the idea of credit here is really important. You don't.

You didn't work for it. You cannot dig yourself out of that hole. It has been imputed to you. It's been given to you. And so. And it's by faith. By virtue of our faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ through him we have also obtained access by faith.

Again it's by faith not not works into this grace in which we stand and rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only that but we rejoice in our suffering. Knowing that suffering produces endurance and endurance produces character and character produces hope.

And hope does not put us to shame because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. So the Holy Spirit being the the one of whom we receive that stream of endurance that leads to sanctification.

So you can see that groundwork there justifications by faith. The fruit of that is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which brings forth of course sanctification. Although the word sanctification isn't used in this text clearly the idea is there that we are being sanctified that we are being something is being produced in us so that we can continue to endure even under suffering under hardship.

Yes pastor you know what's interesting is I studied this in seminary. And when you look at the three major views of justification a lot of it has to do with looking at that Greek word for being declared righteous for justification.

And there is a sense in which in the Greek it is there is a sense in which it is more than just at times being made right or being justified by how do I put this. There's a connotation that it is that it is far more encompassing at times because there is only one word to describe this legal act right.

So if you're in a court and you're declared righteous it means you didn't do anything wrong. So is that connotation. Okay you didn't do anything wrong that therefore you're you know you're righteous you it's a legal term.

And so there is a sense in which at times the word can give you the connotation that you did something. Which is why Paul's very intentional with how he phrases it because he understands that this word could be understood in that way.

That's why he says you've been justified by faith. Okay. So the act of justification isn't because you did something even though that connotation is in the word which is where a lot of the brothers are not brothers but people in Rome and orthodoxism kind of extrapolate and say well no if you look at the word it meant a little bit more it was more encompassing than just being declared righteous in a in a sense of you didn't you know it's being imputed to you but rather that you you are actually righteous that so that's what.

That's where they they come at it from they come at it from a perspective saying no the word being declared righteous means that you are actually righteous. And they're not totally wrong when you just look at the word but the surrounding words provide the context isn't it.

And so you can't look at a at a word devoid of its context. You know just for instance TV television. Anyone know what that root word means. Like what does that word television mean. Anyone know far-seeing right.

Television it means far-seeing. And so if you if you if you bring up and you know in 400 years we probably won't have TVs anymore it'll all be in your brain. Okay. And if you brought up that word 400 years from now people will be debating what did they mean by that word right.

Because the root word means far-seeing right. And so what what were they seeing and what was. Okay. It's real simple for us here to to like okay the TV is just a device you screen you watch something on it.

It's broadcast easy. But you could see how in a couple hundred years people might be debating okay what do they actually mean by that. That's that's just the evolutionary word. That's just the way that words and context and cultures develop.

And so context is so important. That's why Paul and being under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit doesn't just give us these kind of ambiguous words that can be hard to understand in the future. But he provides us the context by grounding it in these theological terms.

You're justified by faith. We have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. And this is we have obtained access by faith into this grace. So again not of you. It keeps hearkening that point. It's not of you.

You can't earn this. And part of the challenge here is that when a Roman when you speak to Roman Catholic we'll use a similar language. It's similar very similar to the Colts. Again the Colts and other groups and Catholics will will use a lot of the same terminology but we usually mean something totally different.

So for instance you know we're looking at our in chapter 10 and page 142 you know we differ on the meaning and extent of the term justification. Like and so we're using the same terms but we mean something different by it.

We differ in the meaning of the term impute or imputation. We also differ on the means by which just just with justification takes place. Is it faith alone or faith plus works. And finally we also differ on the grounds or basis upon which sinful people can be justified.

That's so important like I think that last point is probably one of the most important points that could be made is the basis by which we can be justified. And this is where I've had interesting conversations in I think it's not not this time around but I think in October when we have the Iriakos forum we're gonna have a Muslim come in and and we're gonna be essentially debating on what grounds can God offer forgiveness.

Because that's the question of every religion. Every religion has a concept of sin that there's something that is wrong with the human experience something something has gone terribly wrong and that we can hurt people.

We can sin we can do bad things. But the basis by which we can be made right differs in every religion except for Christianity. Christianity is the only one that offers a true basis for forgiveness and it's the shed blood of God's Son Jesus Christ right.

That's the basis whereas every other religion has a prescribed set of rituals or works that can appease divine wrath and make you right with God. Every religion offers some form of workspace salvation.

And that's the difference between true religion and false religion. True religion says you can't do it. It is done only by Jesus it's accomplished by his finished work. Every other religion says no you can.

There's a way in which you can do it if you follow these steps right. How does Roman Catholicism fit into that. They're saying that Jesus' work wasn't enough. They're saying, no, no, no, he made it possible, but you're the one that has to, because once you sin after baptism, you have to pay, I mean they get into all this penance and stuff, but nobody in the New Testament ever talks about that.

Anyone else? Yes, Kyrie? Let's look at what our catechism has to say, not our catechism, our confession has to say on this issue in page 142 actually quotes the Second Lenten Baptist Confession. And on the issue of justification this is what the confession says those whom God effectually calleth he also freely justified not by infusing righteousness into them.

This is important distinction between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism but by pardoning their sins and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous not for anything wrought in them or anything done by them but for Christ's sake alone not by imputing faith itself the act of believing or any other evangelical obedience to them as their righteousness but by imputing Christ's active obedience onto the whole law and passive obedience in his death for their whole and soul righteousness they receiving and resting on him his righteousness by faith which faith they have not of themselves it is a gift of God.

The Westminster Confession on Imputed Righteousness

Huge difference the the confession is going to great lengths to to to make this point clear that justification like there is no part in which you did something to earn it again. It's that spiritual deficit that we talked about earlier.

You've racked up such a high cost such a high debt. There's no way you can pay it back. The only options are to to declare bankruptcy which spiritually speaking biblically speaking would be hell or receive the the finished work of Christ.

Christ completely pays it. He's a god man who alone can satisfy the divine wrath of the father. And that is then imputed to you not infuse. What's the difference between imputed versus infusion. And and so we ultimately would not disagree with an active infusion.

We just say where that active infusion kind of happens right. And so infusion in terms of being declared or being made righteous just declared righteous as different between our concepts here one and we believe were declared righteous.

Roman Catholic says we are made righteous. And we would agree that there is a time which we will be made righteous. But at one point in salvation doesn't happen. Sometimes evangelicals we make the mistake to think of salvation as a one-time act whereas Catholics and and those in the Orthodox Church believe it's a process.

And the truth is that salvation is a process it's not just a one-act-in-time deal. What I mean by that is that it's very popular in evangelicalism today for people to confess Jesus as Lord one time maybe raise their hand at a church service walk down an aisle and now they accept Jesus into their hearts and now they're saved.

Right. And and that's not always the case. In fact we have a lot of false converts in the church because of such easy believism. But what is salvation. Actually salvation is God through the finished work of Christ not just applying a righteousness to you but now making you righteous.

That's now the process of you have justification you have sanctification. That's gonna lead us ultimately to glorification. So you are saved at the moment of belief confessing Jesus as Lord confessing your sinner repenting of sins turning trusting in Jesus you're saved at that moment.

But Paul puts it this way you're saved and you're being saved. So you're saved at that moment you're heaven-bound. But you're also being saved in that you're being transformed now by the renewal of your mind through the act of the Holy Spirit's indwelling in you.

Okay. And that is ultimately gonna lead you to art to the finished product of our salvation which is what glorification which is what exactly is it when we die and go to heaven. That's right. That's right.

That's right. I think the problem with invitations is that it provides an opportunity for carnal man to feel absolved of their sins with a simple act. Right. And so if all it takes is for me to raise my hand in the service walk down an aisle and that means I can go to heaven.

Great. I'll do it. It's easy. And they think that oh you know and they confuse it where there's other religions like the Jehovah Witnesses and Catholics where you have to do a lot of works to get saved.

But if this religion is only asking one work of you hey I'll take that over a hundred works. But it still works. It still works. Whether it's one or a hundred it still works. And so conversion true conversion.

Now what I like about invitations is is that I think it is the preacher's job to press people to a decision. Right. Because if a preacher doesn't press someone in their heart and their conscience to to to to that decision point of acknowledging Christ as Lord and following him then I think the preacher is missing an opportunity.

So I believe there's a balance somewhere in there of of a preacher offering an opportunity for people to respond to the message versus making it so easy that we can help carnal man continue in their path to destruction.

And I think there needs to be a balance there. So we don't want to just say here's an altar call and you can just raise your hand and and now you're in the club. Right. And I was a Southern Baptist for many years and I started to Southern Baptist churches like Southern Baptist love altar calls like we love it.

And then what we'll do and I'm guilty of this as well is that what we'll do is we'll say you know oh we had eight people raise your hands and gave their lives to the Lord. Today I have no idea whether they actually gave their life.

And then I started to realize it's always at the same two or three people in the service raising their hand. It's like didn't you get saved last week. And so so it becomes a challenge and you see the challenge right away there and again true salvation is is evidence through not just justification which is the act of you know God imputing righteousness but now sanctification.

Your desire to want to learn these things your desire to want to be part of a local church your desire to be want to be a disciple of Jesus and grow in holiness. That's the evidence of a true convert a true believer.

And so I think sometimes altar calls in the way that's done in the modern context it's absolutely detrimental. But it doesn't mean that we do not provide an opportunity for people to respond to the message of salvation.

So it's it's one of those things that there's a tension there and I think we want to find that biblical middle ground. So to speak that's right. And the important of the one important discussions here is again when we talk about justification with remember what we're talking about exactly it's the it's being declared righteous.

Righteous is is the key word that we want to focus on. Who has righteousness. Think about this for a moment who has righteousness. Is there any righteousness in carnal man. Not true righteousness. Not not objective righteousness.

There is no righteousness in man. So then who can give it. You can't give something you don't have. So who can give righteousness if only one has it God the triune God Father Son and Spirit. There's only the one true God who has true objective righteousness.

Then only one can actually objectively give it. Which is again why we take the stance that's in our confession and our catechism. Notice what our the catechism this is not the Baptist catechism or Keisha's catechism is the Westminster shorter catechism which is in full agreement with the confession and with our catechism as well.

When asked the question what is justification. The answer is justification is an act of God's free grace wherein he pardon of all our sins. He accepted us as righteous in his sight only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and received by faith alone.

So again only God has righteousness. Only God can then give impute righteousness to us. Yes also yeah I just don't struggle with it. I don't struggle with that personally and I but I get where that struggle can come because of course like when when we do sin like let's let's be honest like when we're sinners.

So when we do sin our response at times can be no different than when we were completely carnal when we were completely lost which is to shied or to shy our face from God. And so we want to find a covering.

It's like Adam and Eve in the garden the first thing the first inclination when they heard God walking in the breeze of the garden was to do what hide and cover themselves to cover their nakedness. And and sometimes even as Christians when we sin we have that same response.

We want to hide and cover ourselves. We don't want to go to church we don't want to talk to the pastors. We just want to hide underneath our desk because we want to hide the shame. We want to cover ourselves.

And what we have to understand is that justification is the doctrine of Christ covering us with his perfected work. So that's that's the beauty of justification. Is that when we sin it's not. It's not if we sin.

It's when we sin we have that covering. We don't have to shy from the Father. We've been covered by the blood of Jesus and so we run to that to that perfect work that's already been done not to other things that cannot truly hide our nakedness and our shame.

Right. So I hold on to what it says in scripture. He who puts faith in him should not be put to shame. Okay. When we believe on Christ we're not put to shame. We have a perfect covering before God for our sins in Jesus Christ.

Isn't that great. That's so good. Like that is good news man. I want Roman Catholics to know this. I want other people to know this. I want sinners to know this that there's a perfect covering for sins in Jesus.

And so that's why you know I don't think I know I don't struggle with it in that way. Because I know what the solution is and I run to the solution. And it's justification. It's it's that perfect work that's been done past present future.

All my sins are covered in Jesus. Not an excuse for me to run to sin. But from it because of Christ's perfect work an appreciation for it. Absolutely. And again life is complicated life is messy. We're sinners.

We're broken. We're fallen. And and we are in constant need to be reminded of justification. Which is why I love that we're focusing on this subject as heavily as we are. Because we need to constantly run to it.

This is not just a theological debate with Roman Catholics. This is a life-changing doctrine life-changing understanding of who we are what our standing before God is. I mean this is this is this is at the heart of the good news here is that there's a covering for us.

We can be the clear righteous we can be made free from the condemnation. That's why Paul can say so passionately and powerfully in Romans 8 1. Therefore after so therefore what's what precedes all that.

It's two chapters of talking about. It's three chapters of talking about justification. Okay three chapters focus on the heart of justification. He says therefore as a result of everything I just said there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Right. That's so good. Like don't you just want to rest in that don't you just want to like bathe in that for a moment it's just so good. And so there's no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. We've been set free from the condemnation that comes from the law and we can walk in the power of the spirit which is what Romans 8 continues to talk about.

So your thoughts or questions so far you got something cooking. Pastor. Yeah. Well that's and and this is where works come in right. Because now okay if you sin here's the penance here's the works have to do to show that you're righteous to get back on that path of righteousness.

And so it's all workspace right. So if it depends on you to be righteous because it's now not only is it been imputed but it's been infused in you. So you have the ability now to be righteous. So that is now innate in you in some way.

And here this here's the prescriptions here's the penance here's the the things that you have to do to demonstrate righteousness that's right. And there is and that's that's the that's the that's the error.

The Legal and Forensic Nature of Justification

Yeah. And again so so what what's brought up in page 143 I think is really important. It says justification is said to be an act of God as judge there and he declares the believer righteous. It is therefore a legal forensic declaration on the part of God concerning the believer.

The term forensic this is you know we think forensics. We may maybe think of some type of show like what are those shows that have CSC what CIS. I sound like that right. And we think of like a you know undercover and finding fingerprints and forensic evidence.

But but in the in the in the term that's used here for theological purposes you know forensic takes on a completely different connotation. Forensic means you know it means in this sense to essentially forensic as in it's think small.

So when you think of forensics it's like looking for the small details right. And so God is is able to forensically declare you righteous by looking at the most minute things the smallest of details in the person of Jesus right.

So so Jesus done every single thing right every single thing never send never heard in any way all the way to the most most details that is able to be applied to you through faith in Jesus. And so this term here helps us understand that there is again nothing that you can do on your own to earn this at the smallest of details.

It's not you. It's Jesus from from big to small and everything in between it's all about Jesus here. And so he goes on to say in the next part it says justification is an act undertaken by God is not based on anything done or by us as believers.

It is an act of sovereign grace because it's something God does not something we do. So again the difference between a God-centered and a man-centered theology here it says man other views of justifications that man has a process in being made righteous whereas we would say no that is man.

Man's role is passive. God's work and role here is all encompassing from start to finish. So bankruptcy. You are paying the penalty and part of that penalty is that you won't be able to borrow credit.

You'll be able to buy a house. I mean there's consequences to declaring bankruptcy. It's not just yeah you're alleviated of a responsibility of paying that back in a sense but so it's not perfect comparison.

And so for the for the believer and as the scripture teaches what is the penalty of our sins the wages of sin is death. Death being eternal separation from God in hell. There's a second death that comes and in Revelation chapter 20 which is the lake of fire this is eternal separation from God.

And so in a sense you know it's sometimes been used hell sometimes used as a place where you're paying back your you know your sins in a sense that's not true. There is no payment. There's only penalty right.

And so you're not paying in hell. You're not paying back. And this is actually a Roman Catholic dogma. Their view of hell and their view also of purgatory is that there's a sense in which you are paying back but but there's no payment large enough.

And so it's it's you know hell for the Christian is a penalty. It's not a place in which you're making payments in a sense and so it is a wage due to you. It's your penalty. So again the comparisons are not perfect.

But certainly I just use that as a small analogy to bring forth the the the the forensic evidence that that this is a legal and almost economic term that's used in scripture to describe our condition before God.

Romans 8 and the Unbroken Chain of Redemption

Yeah absolutely absolutely. Let's turn to Romans chapter 8 for a moment and let's look at all. This is great text that we many of us are aware of starting in verse 28. So again justification is the act of God crediting to us righteousness.

That righteousness coming from the perfect work of Christ. That work is imputed to you which means it is credit to you. It is it is as if so when I taught you guys if you were here for our evangelism training that we did when I first came we went over how to have gospel conversations with people at the door.