Joseph Pipa, A Defense of the Deity of Christ

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three three-four-one. And now with today's topic here is James white.

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon. Want to begin the program this afternoon by welcoming to the airwaves dr. Joseph Piper president professor of historical and systematic theology at Greenville Seminary and A gentleman that I will be having the opportunity of meeting in Just a matter of weeks as we will be getting together.

Of course at the Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary March 9th through 11th for the nature and sufficiency of scripture conference. And dr. Piper. It's great to have you with us today.

Thank you. Dr. White. I appreciate the opportunity. It's wonderful to be on your program. You were a great help to me a few years ago when I was doing that debate with Dave Houghton. Told exactly what to expect and it came out exactly what you said.

Well.

That's I cannot take any prophetic Claims for being able to tell you what to expect with a month because that's pretty much straightforward. But I I'm looking at the website right now. Dr. Piper. I'm a little bit disappointed because you're wearing a regular tie.

And I was informed that I was going to. Well at least doctor. Dr Hertzer has a bowtie on but everybody else just has regular ties on. Now I'm am I going to be really out of place if I go ahead and and and pile up on my bowties.

No, my bowtie on right now, and it'll be on during the conference. Okay I Don't know where they get those pictures. Yeah, I don't know either. I'm not a hundred percent bowtie guy. No, dr. Kurt. Oh is but.

Actually only dr. Mark. No, dr. Dr. Kurt. Oh has a regular tie on to that's that. Well good now now you need to help me out with something before we talk about the conference. I have had a beautiful green bowtie on my Amazon wish list for months now and nobody will buy it for me.

So since I'm coming to Greenville Presbyterian Seminary Don't I need a green a beautiful green bowtie? Wouldn't that be you just your answer here should be very simple. Yes. Yes for the caveat it has to be Greenville grade, oh, oh it has every kind of green in it.

So I'm sure I can cover it. I'll go with it. Yeah, by all means. Okay, good. That gives me see now I can tell the wife, honey Dr. Pipus that I had to and that that way I'll tell you what I'll get. I've been looking at a green one at Joseph Bank.

So I'll get a green one as well. Well, that's a nice green wrap. So there we go.

Very good. Now, obviously you you all have conferences. At least on some regular basis, but this the nature and sufficiency of Scripture. What specifically caused you to want to go this this direction with this conference.

We did a one-day conference for the inauguration on Southern Presbyterian History and theology and I'd already had the idea when I was a student decades ago at Reform Seminary. They used to have a winter conference and they stopped that I'd have the idea of doing one some people out of that conference said Why don't you all?

Have a conference in March every year. Well decided to do that and what we decided to do was to address Issues before the church either in areas of doctrine or practice or both aimed at a minister. They loaded the prophets from it, but we encourage our speakers to Remember, they got a wide range audience.

So we started with creation. The first year the seminaries committed to its day creation. So we began with that and since then we Sanctification of the justification Evangelism the nature of the church and as we have last year, then we did a major conference on Calvin we were the first major conference of the year on Calvin had 11 just wonderful lectures and In long-range planning it was under attack again.

And there's something that we needed to Address on behalf of the church. We tried the conference to serve the church as trans reform Baptist. And to and I think the conference in that way now I'm looking at some of the topics here we have.

Dr. Shaw's could be addressing the English Bible translation and its purposes. Dr. Dix horn is going to be talking about the Westminster Assembly in Scripture. I'm looking at the picture of dr Murray and I've had the opportunity of speaking up in Inverness and Glasgow and places like that and I.

They're there. I can tell that that dr. Murray has spent some some time up in the Scottish Cousins somewhere.

Yes, a remarkable preacher Joe Bikia recommended him to me and then I heard him preach. We did a I Participated in their conference on Calvin last July. I guess. And what we try to do is a blend. Normally, we in the evenings we have preaching and we've asked dr. Murray to preach both evenings.

He's doing the nature of Scripture inspiration I think from Peter Tuesday evening and then this the thing we try to do a ballot apologetic lecture. Flattering. Very blessed that you can join us. And God's greatly gifted you and and bringing intelligent biblical critiques.

And so I think the two topics you're addressing ends and Irma are very important. And that Markers are Roman Catholicism. He's quite. But we think that's necessary because there's there's so many attacks today on The Bible it is quite remarkable.

One would think that you know, you get things settled and the church goes along. We know that Satan's never never at rest and we've had justification. I Attacked and now out of places that one would never have suspected.

Again the very integrity of the Bible. Gabby said that every generation must be prepared their doctrines biblically and give a defense for them and God.

Yes, he does. In fact, I know that a number of my colleagues have been spending time interacting with some individuals on one particular website that is being run by a graduate of Covenant Seminary who has become a Roman Catholic and it's its entire purpose of this particular website is to bring reformed people into into the Roman fold and so every single generation.

In fact I'm finally now old enough to realize that there's a whole new crop of younger people coming up that haven't gone through a number of the battles that we did only 20 years ago and It just seems to be cyclical along those lines and it certainly seems that the authority and nature of scripture is Always absolutely central to this no matter no matter what the movement is no matter what the the religion and the religious pushes it always comes back to whether Scripture is sufficient to actually address the topic of him.

That's right. So we do have to do these things now. So the during the day then We have more of the lecture type during the evenings more of the of the preaching type. Application. Is that would that be a fair.

Yes.

Exposition of application in the evening although some of the Some of the daytime messages are more proper more practical. Band. It depends this year. Maybe not as much I'm going to be addressing if the Bible is sufficient.

White creeds. I try to make that exegetical and practical. I'm Excited about Chad Van Dicks horn, but a lot of people don't know Chad, but Chad probably has become the leading expert on the Westminster Assembly.

He did a doctorate at Cambridge University in England on the become the Westminster project With and he really is act and as I understand it. We're going to be he'll be releasing a lot of they've done a lot of facts.

That sounds really excellent.

I'm looking at the at the schedule here if anyone wants to. Not now is is is registration pretty much open to to everyone. Everyone everyone's available. So you don't have to be a minister anything like that, right?

And we have.

Nursery care at one o 'clock on Thursday the 9th of March. Tuesday, we try to keep this in his schedule. Is kind of a combination. We have a major book sister in the week.

I'm not the candy store the temptation area. Yeah, okay.

And so we do lectures breaks Q &A times meal Tuesday night and a catered lunch Wednesday and then we give a little longer break on Wednesday night. For people to go out. Which are made so anyway, we excellent.

It's a Greenville. South Carolina is a wonderful guarantee on cold weather at that time of the year. We can guarantee flowers.

Well, I think they want some information and they can go to Www .gpts .edu slash conference of small letters gpts .edu slash conference for registration schedule speakers. Everything you need to get hold of would be able to be found right there on the website.

I'm afraid I'm afraid you're breaking up a little bit on us there. You must be on a cell phone Dr. Piper cuz I'm sorry there there it picked up that we got we got you back there with first few seconds.

You sound like one of those creatures from avatar or something like that, even though I haven't seen it myself. But we wouldn't want to go there. So I wouldn't want to recommend it.

I did see it because my wife wanted to see the 3d but yeah, you talked about propaganda. Oh, no kidding. That's what I've heard. That's that's why I read the Wall Street Journal and it was shoot a form.

Anyway, um I think it's a 29. Yes, it's already an expensive conference, but that's even another discount line and We've started near the and also for the well, excellent. Excellent. Now just just one last thing here because we don't want to be too long but.

You haven't checked registrations to see if maybe Ergon Kanner or Dave Hunt or anybody is planning on.

To get taught by mr. Ends who these ministers are now in our reform denominations, but.

Yeah, well, who knows maybe I mean he raises some very interesting questions and we have to we have to wrestle with them. So that's right. Very very different topic though than than Bart Ehrman who isn't training.

Anybody who's ending up in our churches, that's for sure. So that's good also.

Through sermon audio .com. 400 more people. Well, excellent. Excellent. Well, sir. Thank you very much for joining us.

I'm looking forward to being there and especially now that I can Explain to my wife that I really do need to get that green bowtie. You need that green tie and remember that is your wife gonna get to come with you.

I don't think so. No.

Well, you're invited to for our house for a supper on Wednesday night. Yes. That's what I've heard. I'm looking forward to it.

All right. All right. Thank you, sir. Thank you. All right. All right, dr. Joseph Piper. Joining us there to help Give you the information those of you in that particular area. That's going to be in March and I hope you will make plans to be with us there.

The Nature and Sufficiency of Scripture Conference

I will confess doing the Ehrman critique is easy. Doing the ends critique is not. I wrote an article for the CRI Journal on ends and his views. But I felt when I wrote it that it was just very incomplete because there's so much it's.

He addresses such a wide range of issues that it's. That's one. I'm gonna have to work a lot harder on the Ehrman debate is actually Doc say no to the green bowtie. No, I like bowties. I think they're wonderful.

The Ehrman to Ehrman criticism would be much much much easier. All right. Shifting gears now very much shifting gears. I. We began this program many many many years ago. It sort of grew out of when I was a Very young man.

I was invited to join some people who were talking about Mormonism on the radio on an old Christian radio station that doesn't even exist here in in the Phoenix area and I was doing radio and So it Seemed to me to be a good idea to try to teach on subjects that people would not be getting a lot of teaching on.

In in this particular context and we have done some some I think amazing programs over the years on some very in-depth subjects. But likewise we have to remember that there are certain subjects we have to keep coming back to you as we're just talking with dr Piper on the subject of the nature insufficiency of scripture.

We have to keep revisiting that new generations come up that have not heard these things or have not been forced to think through these things. One of the key areas that we have Spoken to and addressed over the years is the subject of the deity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

It is an extremely important subject. It is always under attack and It was one of the most central issues initially in our ministry especially due to the fact that the first two groups that we dealt with Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jehovah's Witnesses, you know completely denied the deity of Christ in the sense that They believe he is a God a a lesser deity a created being an angel. Michael. But then in the Mormons likewise while they would confess the deity of Christ as they are polytheists.

Confessing the deity of a polytheistic God is not nearly the same thing as confessing the deity of Christ in a Christian context a monotheistic context. Well, I Hope to have the opportunity. When I am in England, and even if that does not work I am going to pursue this Along other lines to to engage Professor Anthony buzzard.

Professor buzzard teaches taught. I believe he is retired now at the Atlanta Bible College. I have addressed him a number of times on this program normally just very briefly. I played for example number of years ago.

His quote-unquote debate was Shabir Ali, which was rather funny. Professor buzzard openly professes to be a Sassanian. The Sassanian movement going back quite some time has always in its history led to a degradation of the Christian faith.

Collapse in universalism rationalism, etc. Etc. The Sassanians have always been the the enemies of The faith and have always been a fairly small group but dr. Buzzard being from the United Kingdom has that advantage of speaking like Nt, right and So sounding very erudite even while pronouncing heresy in regards to the person of Jesus Christ and So I happened upon a debate that took place between dr Fred Sanders who some of you know was the moderator of the debate that I did with Shabir Ali at Biola University and So if you've watched the debate with Shabir, you'll you'll recognize the name Fred Sanders.

He was the moderator and I had been told I was there that his area of expertise is that of the doctrine of the Trinity and so I Was very interested the beginning of this week to download and listen to The debate.

I got it directly from Anthony buzzards website. It's not a real high-quality Recording and I want to contact dr. Sanders or maybe something the audience would be able to drop this information to me.

I would like to get the video of this debate. They specifically talked about digitally videoing it. So it should be there someplace but a debate took place in 2007 between Fred Sanders and Anthony buzzard on the subject of the Trinity which focused especially upon the pre-existence of Christ because the Sassanians Deny that Jesus is a divine being.

They deny that he pre existed the his birth in Bethlehem. But what's a little bit different about buzzard is that most of Sinians are extremely liberal in their view of Scripture. Most of them just simply dismiss any texts in the New Testament that would present the deity of Christ as later accretions perversions.

Very similar to what a lot of Muslims would say. But dr. Buzzard doesn't go that way. He does rely upon some I think some very inconsistent sources of scholarly information. But he does try to come up with an explanation without just simply dismissing the New Testament in Toto and so that makes it a little bit of a different type of situation be dealing with by working through the claims that Anthony buzzard presents and I'm not sure if I should call him sir Anthony or not because he's evidently has some English title Sir Anthony buzzard so I will confess that my English friends will have to explain exactly what that means but and How I should address him if we do get a chance to engage each other in in England, but bit as it may.

He Makes a number of presentations in this debate. I'm not going to play dr. Sanders responses. I'm not here to criticize or just simply to play the debate over and over again I want to interact with the the specific claims that dr. Buzzard being and as we deal with that hopefully you will be trained and edified and assisted and encouraged in giving a response to a much wider range because While some of his arguments are somewhat unique Most of them are not and Being able to give a meaningful response to this particular Presentation will likewise assist you in responding to the Jehovah's Witnesses when they come to the door and responding to the Muslim all of those who deny the deity of Christ and While this has been a touchstone of Christian orthodoxy Professor buzzard himself in his opening statement and in essence asserts That most Christians are closet Unitarians and There is an element of truth to his statement now most of the things he says for example No one ever preaches a sermon on the Trinity just isn't true.

No one ever prays to the Trinity just isn't true. He hasn't been to my church, but There is an element of truth in it in the broader general evangelical context where there is a functional Not a functional Unitarianism I Think in liberal churches and maybe in certainly in the Church of England that would be the case.

But I actually think that while the ignorance of the Trinity that exists amongst most evangelicals Does it is there it's true. It is an ignorance that leans toward modalism. Not an ignorance that leans toward a subordination is stick or so Sinian Unitarianism.

He might You know want to argue that but that seems to be my Take on that least amongst conservatives liberals. It would be more of a Sicilian ism. The Jesus was a great teacher. But you know all that all that theological stuff the church developed over the years about the Trinity and stuff just done.

You know we don't really buy into that and so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna be playing Anthony buzzards portions of this debate and stopping and responding as we do here many many people write and Mention the fact that they find this to be an extremely useful way to learn and Most folks who don't find this to be a good way to learn Aren't listening right now anyways.

So if you're still listening, that's probably because you do find this to be a useful way of being instructed being edified in in hearing the other position and then hearing response to it and Hopefully I would very much I would love to arrange a two-part four-hour debate or something like that on these issues with Anthony buzzard I think it'd be extremely useful.

And since it wouldn't require going to the UK to do so. Maybe that's something that can be arranged, but let's uh let's start with. I skipped his opening statement because it was very general. That gives me four statements.

I guess it was just a back forth back forth five times in the course of this debate. It's two hours and 15 minutes long. But there wasn't a lot of the biblical stuff in the first portion so I'm starting with his second statement because that's where it gets a little bit easier to respond to in the sense of Stop it and say, okay.

Here's the claim. Let's let's respond to the claim. So let's Listen to Anthony buzzard in his debate with on the subject of the Trinity.

Theology. Quoted and I'll quote again. To be called some of God in the Bible means you're not God. He's a systematic theologian full of very distinguished. He's the general editor of that massive volumes.

I Read the following the Trinity. The New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. The Bible lacks the express declaration of the Father. The Son and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence and therefore in an equal sense God himself.

And the other express declaration is also lacking That God is God. Thus and only thus I use father son and Holy Spirit. He's to express declarations which go beyond the witness of the Bible. Are the twofold content of the church doctrine of the Trinity?

Now I stop right there because I've asked for some assistance from a friend of mine back east to track down This this almost becomes a mantra like chant on the part of Anthony buzzard. This column Smith quote to be the Son of God.

It means you're not God now. It's interesting to me that So far and I just got his books in. He has a new book out. Jesus is not a Trinitarian and so I haven't had a chance to dig into all these things quite yet, but I am working on it but in this debate and in his Discussion of John 1 1 which becomes much more broad Ranging than just John 1 1 that I listened to yesterday again from his website.

He keeps quoting this same quote over and over again, but so far in what I have listened to from Professor buzzard he never does what you need to do and that is. Especially looking at the Gospel of John the first place you turn to to find out what Son of God means is not Colin Smith in a 1975 Dictionary of Theology.

I have One of the volumes right here The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology volume 3 this isn't the first place you go to find out what Son of God means. To John. Instead you you go to well the text itself and I have never so far just just so far and again.

You know, maybe there's a whole discussion of this someplace that I I haven't run into yet. But I've yet to hear him quote John 19 7. The Jews answered him we have a law and by that law he ought to die because he made himself out to be the Son of God.

Now there's no question and we if you've been a longtime listener. You've listened to us work through for example Akhmet didat's arguments against the Trinity and he keeps saying that the there God has sons by the ton.

That many people are called Son of God that's true. No question about that angels and and Israel and all the rest of these things but there is clearly a difference in how Jesus identified as the Son of God and In John 19 7 because he made himself out to be the Son of God the unique Son of God, but not gonna a sweet us.

In John 5 they want to kill him because he calls God his own father making himself equal with God. They understood that he was using that term Son of God not in the generic fashion That is found elsewhere in Scripture.

And so where do you go? First you go to the context of the book? We're looking at Gospel of John or do you go? 1975 years down the road to Collins Colin Brown. I say Colin Smith. I hope I did say Colin Smith.

Well Colin Colin. Colin Smith just edited something that he didn't know he'd edited. No Collins best one of my students Colin Brown is the editor of the New National Dictionary of the New Testament. I keep doing that because I only know I only know one Colin and that's well that at least a guy whose name is Colin.

When I come back, I do want to mention something that Colin Brown says or at least it's contained in Colin Brown's dictionary. And continue on with Anthony buzzard, but we're gonna take our break and be right back.

What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book. Chosen, but free a new cult. Secularism false prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.

He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant. In his book the potter's freedom James White replies to dr. Geisler. But the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.

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So what's that about God's glow?

Evidently y 'all really need to pick up the pace on getting that other machine finished up because Started over a minute late and now the commercials are cutting out and the rebellion has truly begun.

Evidently I mean that machine clearly knows that its days are numbered and so.

Gotta get that thing. It's this stuff is disappearing right and left and then it's moved around and it's like Who's been messing with my air mix?

Well, someone has been messing with the machine. Oh. Yes, indeed, all right, we are back and we continue listening to Sir Anthony buzzard and his presentation in The debate on the subject of the Trinity.

I wanted to mention He makes great. Hey out of just how advanced the New International Dictionary New Testament Theology is yet. I looked up son of God because I was looking for the reference. Yeah, he doesn't give the page number in his presentations.

I would imagine it's buried somewhere in a book someplace, but. So I figured well, he's talking about son of God, let's look up son of God long section on the Son of God. Under on page 646 of volume 3 we read the title.

Son of God is clearly fundamental in John's Christology and is used to express a number of basic convictions about Jesus. One it expresses the metaphysical or essential relationship between Jesus and his father.

So close is the link between them that deny the son is deny the father first John 2 22. Father and son are inseparably belong inseparably to each other. The son is pre-existent John 3 17 11 27. 1st John 3 8 4 9 through 14.

He is God's only son a term which expresses a special love between the father and Jesus. So given that sir, Anthony denies the pre-existence of Jesus. I wonder why he would be Recommending a source that says that Jesus pre-existed.

Or whether he would disagree with that source, he certainly would have to disagree with that source.

But we continue on with his presentation. Oh my goodness. It sounds like a Unitarian statement absolutely straight out. So what's happening now? This is the most sophisticated biblical work you could find practically on earth and any Unitarian will say well, that's what we've always said.

We're dealing with some very powerful people in the Unitarian world. Sir Isaac Newton would have loved to be in here tonight because it doesn't make him right. It's all you can quote. Names to the cows come home.

But sir, Isaac Newton and John Locke and John Milton presumably some of the brightest brains of the 17th century. Were vigorous non-trinitarians. Vigorous that was embarrassing for them because they were politically connected in the case of John Milton.

His works were lost for 200 years and found again in the houses of House of Commons. Turned out he was an absolute heretic. He was an area that he denied the Trinity and if you want to read his father-son hellish great book.

Cannot dismiss people like John Milton as he is. They were very clever with words and very intelligent with words.

John Locke was. I just stop right there. Okay, there have been Unitarians in the past. There have been polytheists in the past. There have been Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and all sorts of things in the best.

That's not really an argument. I Founds a lot of grandstanding in in the presentation very common. It's very common in our day when People do not examine arguments very carefully. Well, these are brilliant people.

Well, they're brilliant Buddhists and they're brilliant Hindus and they're brilliant Muslims and What exactly does that have to do with the topic at hand might be the question?

Very sympathetic to Sassanian and I do thank Professor Sanders for mentioning that word Sassanian because what you're hearing from me is a straight Sassanian Christology a name that comes from the Sassanian, the Italian brothers actually not brothers.

But an uncle and nephew who rebelled against the Orthodox Trinitarian view in the 1600s. So John Locke and Isaac Newton and John Milton were very concerned that the Trinity makes no sense from a language.

Point of view it was simply incomprehensible. There's simply no way that one could be turned into three.

And again, this just isn't true. I mean you may not like Making the distinction between being in person. But if I can teach teenagers to understand it, why can't you understand it? It strikes me that that kind of argument is is the argument from enforced ignorance or willful ignorance.

I just choose to believe that. I can't understand this. It's not that it's not understandable. We can understand how things have being and yet they're not personal but at the same time. Over and over again as I was listening this debate I was very frustrated because I want to be able to point out the double standard that Sir Anthony uses.

He will constantly criticize The Christians for using non biblical language like dr. Sanders does but then he'll turn around use non biblical language himself. He will say how can we understand this relationship between how can we understand eternal beginning?

Well, how can you understand God being eternal period? I mean, there's all sorts of things that God did before creation how do you understand God being eternally loving eternally just eternally anything and.

So there is that that's one of the problems of Sicilian ism is it's primarily rationalism that's what it boils down to and It struggles to allow God to be God. It forces God to to be limitable to our categories and It refuses to allow God to be different than we are.

If you can't give me an example in the created order then well God can't be that way or I'm not going to accept that and that's what you're hearing from sir.

Anthony one can say Jesus is God the Holy Spirit is God the father is God. But unless one defines what one means more precisely one really isn't saying anything. If you just say that means one God three cannot be one that's good and Trinitarians understand that I'm not satisfied there with their attempt to deal with that problem.

I Must to believe by Trinitarians that God is one was In three moons. I don't find that in Scripture. I find God being one who? Singular pronouns in the Old Testament speak of a who not a what? God is not an essence in Scripture, and so my major point would be Not mine, but the Unitarian tradition, which is now many many years old of course.

My main point would be that you really got this to reinvent language or at least to go outside biblical language to describe this Trinity. Why do I have to believe in an essence to describe God? Why do I have to talk of essence at all the Bible doesn't?