Joseph Pipa, A Defense of the Deity of Christ

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.
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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the
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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.
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Here is James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon want to begin the program this afternoon by welcoming to the airwaves dr.
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Joseph Piper president professor of historical and systematic theology at Greenville Seminary and A gentleman that I will be having the opportunity of meeting in Just a matter of weeks as we will be getting together.
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Of course at the Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary March 9th through 11th for the nature and sufficiency of scripture conference and dr.
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Piper It's great to have you with us today Thank you. Dr. White. I appreciate the opportunity It's wonderful to be on your program you were a great help to me a few years ago when
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I was doing that debate with Dave Houghton Told exactly what to expect and it came out exactly what you said well
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That's I cannot take any prophetic Claims for being able to tell you what to expect with a month because that's pretty much straightforward
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But I I'm looking at the website right now. I'm a little bit disappointed because you're wearing a regular tie
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And I was informed that I was going to well at least dr. Dr Hertzer has a bowtie on but everybody else just has regular ties on now
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I'm am I going to be really out of place if I go ahead and and and pile up on my bowties
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No, my bowtie on right now, and it'll be on during the conference. Okay I Don't know where they get those pictures
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Yeah, I don't know either. I'm not a hundred percent bowtie guy. No, dr. Kurt. Oh is but So he should have a bowtie on the picture, too
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Actually only dr. Mark. No, dr. Dr. Kurt. Oh has a regular tie -on to that's that's
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Well good now you need to help me out with something before we talk about the conference I have had a beautiful green bowtie on my
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Amazon wish list for months now and nobody will buy it for me So since I'm coming to Greenville Presbyterian Seminary Don't I need a green a beautiful green bowtie?
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Wouldn't that be you just your answer here should be very simple. Yes Yes for the caveat it has to be
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Greenville grade, oh Well, it has every kind of green in it. So I'm sure I can cover Okay Okay, good that gives me see now
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I can tell the wife honey, dr. Piper said I had to and that that way I've been looking at a green one at Joseph Bank.
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So Well Very good now
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Obviously you you all have conferences at least on some regular basis, but this the nature and sufficiency of Scripture What specifically caused you to want to go this this direction with this conference
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History when I was inaugurated 12 years ago, we did a one -day conference for the inauguration on southern
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Presbyterian History and theology and I'd already had the idea when
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I was a student decades ago at Reform Seminary They used to have a winter conference and they stopped that I'd have the idea of doing one some people out of that conference said
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Why don't you all? Have a conference in March every year so the next year we
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Decided to do that. And what we decided to do is to address what we thought would be important issues before the church either in areas of doctrine or practice or both and the conference is aimed at a lay audience ministers below the prophets from it that we encourage our speakers to Remember they got a wide range audience.
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So we started with creation The first year the seminaries committed to six -day creation.
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So we began with that at a very good conference and since then we've sought to address issues sanctification the sufficiency of Scripture we did the covenant justification worship evangelism the nature of the church and And as we have last year then we did a major conference on Calvin we were the first major conference of the year on Calvin had 11 just wonderful lectures and in long -range planning we realized that the doctrine of the scripture was under attack again, and it's something that we needed to address on behalf of the church, we tried the conference to serve the church particularly the
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Reformed Presbyterians Reformed Baptist Sector of the church both to edify and to equip and I think the conference has been blessed to the
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Lord and in that way now. I'm looking at some of the topics here. We have
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Dr. Shah's could be addressing the English Bible translation its purposes. Dr.
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Dixhorn is going to be talking about the Westminster Assembly in Scripture I'm looking at the picture of dr.
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Murray, and I've had the opportunity of speaking up in Inverness and Glasgow and places like that and I I there there
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I can tell that that dr. Murray has spent some time up in the
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Scottish Cousins Which is really
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Isolated yes That's only yes, it is a remarkable preacher good.
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I'm looking forward to this Joe Bikia recommended him to me, and then I heard him preach. We did a
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I participated in their conference on Calvin last Was a
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July I guess and he really is quite a good preacher So we're excited about him what we try to do is a blend normally in the evenings we have preaching
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And we've asked dr. Murray to preach both evenings. He's doing the nature of Scripture inspiration
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I Think from Peter mm -hmm Tuesday evening and then the sufficiency of Scripture Wednesday evening, and then we try to do a balance of Both instructive and apologetic lectures we have more apologetic lectures this year we were
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Without flattering very blessed that you can join us. I think God's greatly gifted you and And bringing intelligent biblical critiques
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And so I think the two topics you're addressing ends and Irma are very important and that Mark Herzer We had a few years ago just some stuff on Roman Catholicism.
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He's quite Quite good in that area is going to do the Roman Catholic view of Scripture so a bit more of the
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Critique approach, but we think that's necessary because there's there's so many attacks today on the
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Bible It's quite remarkable one would think that you know you get things settled and the church goes along. We know that Satan's never
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Never at rest and we've had justification Attacked and now out of places that one would never have suspected again the very integrity of the
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Bible said that every generation must be prepared to Formulate their doctrines biblically and give a defense for them and God keeps his on our toes, but me yes
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He does in fact. I know that a number of my colleagues have been spending time interacting with some individuals on one particular website that is being run by a graduate of Covenant seminary who has become a
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Roman Catholic and it's its entire purpose of this particular website is to bring reform people into into the
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Roman fold and so Every single generation in fact
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I'm finally now old enough to realize that There's a whole new crop of younger people coming up that haven't gone through a number of the battles that we did only 20 years ago and It just seems to be cyclical along those lines
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And it certainly seems that the authority and nature of Scripture is always absolutely central to this
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No matter no matter what the movement is no matter what the the religion and the religious pushes it always comes back to whether Scripture is sufficient to actually address the topic at hand.
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That's right. So we do have to do these things now so the during the day then
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We have more of the lecture type during the evenings more of the of the preaching type application.
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Is that would that be a fair? Yes Exposition of application in the evening although some of the
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Daytime messages are more practical more practical band. It depends this year. Maybe not as much I'm going to be addressing the topic of if the
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Bible is sufficient white creeds. I try to make that exegetical and practical I'm excited about Chad Van Dicks horn, but a lot of people don't know
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Chad But Chad probably has become the leading expert on the Westminster Assembly He did a doctorate at Cambridge University in England on the minutes of Westminster out of that's come the
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Westminster project with the transcriptions historically accurate
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Annotations and He really is quite an expert and one of the things the seminary is also kind of a theological
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Sponsor of the Westminster project and as I understand it We're going to be he'll be releasing a lot of they've done a lot of facsimile reprints of books by the various Westminster divines
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At a very good price and we're going to be introducing those at the conference as well
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That sounds really excellent. I'm looking at the at the schedule here if anyone wants to Not nice is is registration pretty much open to to everyone
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Everyone everyone's available. So you don't have to minister anything like that, right and we have
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Nursery care long as they register for that starts at 1 o 'clock on Thursday the 9th of March Tuesday and we try to keep this in his schedule is kind of a combination of of intense for relaxed
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We do good breaks. We have a major bookstore That operates during the week I call it the candy store the temptation area.
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Yeah And so we do lectures breaks Q &A times
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We have a catered meal Tuesday night and a catered lunch
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Wednesday the people sign up for register and Then we give a little longer break on Wednesday night
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For people to go out and eat Good time for fellowship a lot of new friendships are made.
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So anyway, we we do have the nursery A lot of we've got number of homeschoolers to bring their older young people who sit actually through the lectures and A wide range of ministers from as I said, both
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Presbyterian and Baptist backgrounds and their families are here as well so it's a Great time.
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Excellent. It's a Greenville, South Carolina is a wonderful city to be in things are beginning to bloom then although we
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Can't call guarantee on cold weather at that time of the year. We can guarantee flowers Well, I think they want some information and they can go to www .gpts
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.edu Slash conference at small letters gpts .edu
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slash conference for registration schedules speakers Everything you need to get hold of would be able to be found right there on the website
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I'm afraid I'm afraid you're breaking up a little bit on us there. You must be on a cell phone Dr. Piper cuz
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I'm sorry there there it picked up that we got we got you back there with first few seconds You sound like one of those creatures from avatar or something like that, even though I haven't seen it myself
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But we wouldn't want to go there. So I Did see it because my wife wanted to see the 3d, but yeah, you talked about propaganda.
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Oh, no kidding. That's what I've heard That's that's why I read the Wall Street Journal. I did it was true to form.
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Anyway, um, we got early bird registration through But I think it's a 29th.
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Yes, it's already an expensive conference, but that's even another discount and so they can register online and We've got very reasonable accommodations near the church site where we meet and Also for those that register in time and need a room
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We got houses in the area that are willing to host people as well. Excellent. Excellent now just just one last thing here because we don't want to keep you too long, but You haven't checked registrations to see if maybe
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Ergon Kanner or Dave Hunt or anybody is planning on I would like a few ministers who had been taught by mr.
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Enns who these ministers are now in our reform denominations, but Yeah, who knows maybe
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I mean he raises some very interesting questions And we have to we have to wrestle with them
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So that's a very very different topic though than than Bart Ehrman who isn't training
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Anybody who's ending up in our churches? That's for sure. So that's good also The Tuesday night messages will be webcast through sermon audio .com
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so that people can listen to them live. We had about three or four hundred more people listening to those two at last year's conference, so that's a
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Service they provide for us as well. Excellent. Excellent. Well, sir. Thank you very much for joining us I'm looking forward to being there and especially now that I can
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Explain to my wife that I really do need to get that green bowtie You need that green tie and remember that is your wife gonna get to come with you.
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I don't think so. No Well, you're invited to for our house for a supper on Wednesday night.
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Yes, that's what I've heard. I'm looking forward to it All right. All right. Thank you, sir. Thank you. All right. Bye. Bye.
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Bye. Bye All right, dr. Joseph Piper Joining us there to help
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Give you the information those of you in that particular area That's going to be in March and I hope you will make plans to be with us there
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I will confess doing the ermine critique is easy doing the ends critique is not
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I wrote an article for the CRI Journal on ends and his views
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But I felt when I wrote it that it was just very incomplete because there's so much it's
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He addresses such a wide range of issues that it's That's one.
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I'm gonna have to work a lot harder on the ermine debate is actually Doc say no to the green bowtie.
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No, I like bowties I think they're wonderful the ermine ermine criticism would be much much much easier.
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All right Shifting gears now very much shifting gears
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I We began this program many many many years ago
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It sort of grew out of when I was a Very young man.
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I was invited to join some people who were talking about Mormonism on the radio on an old
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Christian radio station that doesn't even exist here in in the Phoenix area and I was doing radio and So it
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Seemed to me to be a good idea to try to teach on subjects that people would not be getting a lot of teaching on In in this particular context and we have done some some
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I think amazing programs over the years on some very in -depth subjects
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But likewise we have to remember that there are certain subjects we have to keep coming back to you as we're just talking with dr
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Piper on the subject of the nature and sufficiency of Scripture We have to keep revisiting that new generations come up that have not heard these things or have not been forced to think through these things one of the key areas that we have
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Spoken to and addressed over the years is the subject of the deity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ It is an extremely important subject.
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It is always under attack and It was one of the most central issues initially in our ministry especially due to the fact that the first two groups that we dealt with Mormonism and Jehovah's Witnesses Jehovah's Witnesses, you know completely denied the deity of Christ in the sense that They believe he is a
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God a a lesser deity a created being an angel Michael But then in the
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Mormons likewise while they would confess the deity of Christ as they are polytheists
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Confessing the deity of a polytheistic God is not nearly the same thing as confessing the deity of Christ in a
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Christian context a monotheistic context well, I Hope to have the opportunity
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When I am in England and even if that does not work I am going to pursue this Along other lines to to engage
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Professor Anthony buzzard Professor buzzard teaches taught. I believe he is retired now at the
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Atlanta Bible College. I Have addressed him a number of times on this program normally just very briefly
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I played for example number of years ago. His quote -unquote debate was
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Shabir Ali, which was rather funny Professor buzzard openly professes to be a
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Sassanian the Sassanian movement going back quite some time has always in its history led to a degradation of the
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Christian faith Collapse in universalism rationalism, etc, etc. These Sassanians have always been the the enemies of The faith and have always been a fairly small group but dr.
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Buzzard being from the United Kingdom has that advantage of speaking like NT Wright and so sounding very erudite even while pronouncing heresy in regards to the person of Jesus Christ and So I happened upon a debate that took place between dr
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Fred Sanders who some of you know was the moderator of the debate that I did with Shabir Ali at Biola University and So if you've watched the debate with Shabir, you'll you'll recognize the name
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Fred Sanders. He was the moderator and I had been told I was there that his area of expertise is that of the doctrine of the
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Trinity and so I Was very interested the beginning of this week to download and listen to The debate
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I got it directly from Anthony buzzards website. It's not a real high quality Recording and I want to contact dr.
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Sanders or maybe something the audience would be able to drop this information to me I would like to get the video of this debate.
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They specifically talked about digitally videoing it So it should be there someplace but a debate took place in 2007 between Fred Sanders and Anthony buzzard on the subject of the
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Trinity which focused especially upon the pre -existence of Christ because the Sassanians Deny that Jesus is a divine being
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They deny that he pre existed the his birth in Bethlehem But what's a little bit different about buzzard?
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Is that most Sassanians are extremely liberal in their view of Scripture? Most of them just simply dismiss any texts in the
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New Testament that would present the deity of Christ as later accretions perversions Very similar to what a lot of Muslims would say
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But dr. Buzzard doesn't go that way. He does rely upon some I think some very inconsistent sources of scholarly information but he does try to come up with an explanation without just simply dismissing the
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New Testament and Toto and So that makes it a little bit of a different type of situation be dealing with by working through the claims that Anthony buzzard presents and I'm not sure if I should call him.
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Sir. Anthony or not because he's evidently has some English title Sir, Anthony buzzard
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So I will confess that my English friends will have to explain exactly what that means But and how
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I should address him if we do get a chance to engage Each other in in England, but a bit as it may
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He Makes a number of presentations in this debate. I'm not going to play.
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Dr. Sanders responses I'm not here to criticize or just simply to play the debate over and over again
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I want to interact with the the specific claims that dr. Buzzard being and as we deal with that hopefully you will be trained and Edified and assisted and encouraged in giving a response to a much wider range because While some of his arguments are somewhat unique most of them are not and Being able to give a meaningful response to this particular
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Presentation will likewise assist you in responding to the Jehovah's Witnesses when they come to the door and responding to the
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Muslim all of those who deny the deity of Christ and While this has been a touchstone of Christian orthodoxy
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Professor buzzard himself in his opening statement and in essence asserts that most
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Christians are closet Unitarians and There is an element of truth to his statement now most of the things he says for example
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No one ever preaches a sermon on the Trinity just isn't true No one ever prays to the
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Trinity just isn't true. He hasn't been to my church, but There is an element of truth in it in the broader general evangelical context where there is a functional
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Not a functional Unitarianism. I Think in liberal churches and maybe in certainly in the
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Church of England that would be the case But I actually think that while the ignorance of the
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Trinity that exists amongst most evangelicals Does it is there it's true.
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It is an ignorance that leans toward modalism Not an ignorance that leans toward a subordination istik or so Sinian Unitarianism he might
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You know want to argue that but that seems to be my Take on that least amongst conservatives liberals.
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It would be more of a so Sinianism The Jesus was a great teacher But you know all that all that theological stuff the church developed over the years about the
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Trinity and stuff just done you know, we don't really buy into that and So what I'm gonna do is
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I'm gonna be playing Anthony buzzards portions of this debate and stopping and responding as we do here many many people write and Mention the fact that they find this to be an extremely useful way to learn and Most folks who don't find this to be a good way to learn
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Aren't listening right now anyways So if you're still listening, that's probably because you do find this to be a useful way of being instructed being edified in in hearing the other position and then hearing response to it and Hopefully I would very much.
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I would love to arrange a two -part Four -hour debate or something like that on these issues with Anthony buzzard.
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I think it'd be extremely useful And since it wouldn't require going to the UK to do so Maybe that's something that can be arranged.
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But let's uh, let's start with I Skipped his opening statement because it was very general and that gives me four statements
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I guess it was just a back forth back forth five times in the course of this debate. It's two hours and 15 minutes long
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But there wasn't a lot of the biblical stuff in the first portion so I'm starting with his second statement because that's where it gets a little bit easier to respond to in the sense of Stop it and say, okay.
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Here's the claim. Let's let's respond to the claim. So let's Listen to Anthony buzzard in his debate with on the subject of the
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Trinity Because Trinity the
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New Testament does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity the Bible lacks the express declaration of the
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Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence and therefore in an equal sense
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God himself And the other express declaration is also lacking That God is
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God thus and only thus I use father son and Holy Spirit These two express declarations which go beyond the witness of the
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Bible Are the twofold content of the church doctrine of the church
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Now I stop right there because I've asked for some assistance from a friend of mine back east to track down This this almost becomes a mantra like chant on the part of Anthony buzzard
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This Colin Smith quote to be the Son of God. It means you're not God now It's interesting to me that So far and I just got his books in He has a new book out
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Jesus is not a Trinitarian and so I haven't had chance to dig into all these things quite yet, but I am working on it but in this debate and in his
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Discussion of John 1 1 which becomes much more broad Ranging than just John 1 1 that I listened to yesterday again from his website
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He keeps quoting this same quote over and over again, but so far in what
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I have listened to from professor buzzard He never does what you need to do and that is
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Especially looking at the Gospel of John The first place you turn to to find out what Son of God means is not
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Colin Smith in a 1975 Dictionary of theology
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I have One of the volumes right here The New International Dictionary of New Testament theology volume 3 this isn't the first place you go to find out what
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Son of God means To John Instead you you go to well the text itself and I have never so far just just so far and again
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You know, maybe there's a whole discussion of this someplace that I I haven't run into yet But I've yet to hear him quote
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John 19 7 The Jews answered him we have a law and by that law he ought to die because he made himself out to be the
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Son of God Now there's no question and we if you've been a longtime listener you've listened to us work through for example
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Akhmed didots arguments against the Trinity and he keeps saying that the God has sons by the ton
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That many people are called Son of God that's true No question about that angels and and Israel and all the rest of these things but there is clearly a difference in how
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Jesus identified as the Son of God and in John 19 7 because he made himself out to be the
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Son of God the unique Son of God, but not gonna a sweet us In John 5 they want to kill him because he calls
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God his own father making himself equal with God They understood that he was using that term
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Son of God not in the generic fashion That is found elsewhere in Scripture.
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And so where do you go first? You go to the context of the book? We're looking at Gospel of John or do you go?
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1975 years down the road to Collins Colin Brown. I say Colin Smith. I hope I did say
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Colin Smith Well Colin Colin Colin Smith just edited something that he didn't know he'd edited No Collins best one of my students
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Colin Brown is the editor of the New National Dictionary of the New Testament I keep doing that because I only know I only know one
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Colin and that's well that at least a guy whose name is Colin When I come back I do want to mention something that Colin Brown says or at least it's contained in Colin Brown's Dictionary and continue on with Anthony buzzard, but we're gonna take our break and be right back
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What Is dr.
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Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios
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No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called
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Calvinism he insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom
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James White replies to dr Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the
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Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate
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James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme Calvinism Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of scripture
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The potter's freedom a defense of the Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org
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Bible works 8 is here full of innovative and essential tools users will have a hundred and ninety plus Bible translations 35 original language text and morphology databases 29 lexical grammatical references and an abundance of additional resources pastors
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Focus on the text and that translates to focusing on the truth Order your copy of Bible works at a omen org and for a limited time
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You'll receive free shipping and a free mp3 download of the white airmen debate The Trinity is a basic teaching of the
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You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Hello everyone, this is
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Rich Pierce in a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha -Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?
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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well
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Support Alpha Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glory. So what's that about God's glow?
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Evidently y 'all really need to pick up the pace on getting that other machine finished up because Started over a minute late and now the commercials are cutting out and the rebellion has truly begun evidently,
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I mean that machine clearly knows that its days are numbered and so Gotta get that fixed.
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I'd say this stuff is disappearing right and left and then it's moved around and it's like Who's been messing with my air mix?
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Well, someone has been messing with the machine Oh Yes, indeed, all right, we are back and we continue listening to Sir, Anthony buzzard and his presentation in The debate on the subject of the
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Trinity I wanted to mention He makes great Hey out of just how advanced the
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New International Dictionary New Testament theology is Yet I looked up son of God because I was looking for the reference. Yeah, he doesn't give the page number in his presentations
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I would imagine it's buried somewhere in a book someplace, but So I figured well, he's talking about son of God.
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Let's look up son of God long section on the Son of God Um Under on page 646 of volume 3 we read the title son of God is clearly fundamental in John's Christology and is used to express a number of basic convictions about Jesus one it expresses the metaphysical or essential relationship
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Between Jesus and his father so close is the link between them that to neither son is denied the father first John 2 22
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Father and son are inseparably are belonging separately to each other. The son is Pre -existent
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John 3 17 11 27 1st John 3 8 4 9 through 14 He is
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God's only son a term which expresses a special love between the father and Jesus So given that sir,
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Anthony denies the pre -existence of Jesus. I wonder why he would be
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Recommending a source that says that Jesus pre -existed or whether he would disagree with that source
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He certainly would have to disagree with that source, but we continue on with his presentation
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Oh my goodness, that sounds like a Unitarian statement. Absolutely straight out. So what's happening now? this is the most sophisticated biblical work you could find practically on earth and Any Unitarian will say well, that's what we've always said
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We're dealing with some very powerful people in the Unitarian world So Isaac Newton would have loved to be here tonight because it doesn't make him right
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Quote names to the cows come home, but sir, Isaac Newton and John Locke and John Milton presumably some of the brightest brains of the 17th century
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Were vigorous non -trinitarian? Vigorous that was embarrassing for them because they were politically connected in the case of John Milton His works were lost for 200 years and found again in the houses of House of Commons Turned out he was an absolute heretic
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He was an area he denied the Trinity and if you want to read his father -son
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Holy Spirit Cannot dismiss people like John Milton as he is. They were very clever with words very intelligent words
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John Locke was I just stop right there. Okay, there have been Unitarians in the past There have been polytheists in the past.
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There have been Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses and all sorts of things in the best That's not really an argument. I Founds a lot of grandstanding in in the presentation very common.
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It's very common in our day When people do not examine arguments very carefully
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Well, these are brilliant people. Well, they're brilliant Buddhists and they're brilliant Hindus and they're brilliant Muslims and What exactly does that have to do with the topic at hand might be the question?
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Very sympathetic to Sassanian and I do thank Professor Sanders for mentioning that word Sassanian because what you're hearing from me is a straight
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Sassanian Christology a name that comes from the Sassanian the Italian brothers actually not brothers
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But an uncle and nephew who rebelled against the Orthodox Trinitarian view in the 1600s
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So John Locke then Isaac Newton and John Milton were very concerned that the
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Trinity makes no sense from a language Point of view it was simply incomprehensible. There's simply no way that one could be turned into three
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And again, this just isn't true. I mean you may not like Making the distinction between being in person
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But if I can teach teenagers to understand it, why can't you understand it? It strikes me that that kind of argument is is the argument from enforced ignorance or willful ignorance
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I I just choose to believe that I can't understand this It's not that it's not understood understandable.
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We can understand how things have being and yet they're not personal but at the same time
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Over and over again as I was listening this debate I was very frustrated because I wanted to be able to point out the double standard that sir
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Anthony uses He will constantly criticize The Christians for using non biblical language like dr.
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Sanders does but then he'll turn around use non biblical language himself He will say how can we understand this relationship between how can we understand eternal beginning?
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Well, how can you understand God being eternal period? I mean, there's all sorts of things that God did before creation how do you understand
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God being eternally loving eternally just eternally anything and So there is that that's one of the problems of Sassanian ism is it's primarily rationalism that's what it boils down to and It struggles to allow
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God to be God. It forces God to to be limitable to our categories and It refuses to allow
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God to be different than we are if you can't give me an example in the created order then well
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God can't be that way Or I'm not going to accept that and That's what you're hearing from sir
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Anthony one can say Jesus is God the Holy Spirit is God the father is God But unless one defines what one means more precisely one really isn't saying anything
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If you just say that means one God three cannot be one. That's good and Trinitarians understand that I'm not satisfied though with their attempt to deal with that problem
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I must have believed by Trinitarians that God is One was in three moons.
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I don't find that in Scripture. I find God being one who? singular pronouns in the
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Old Testament Speak of a who not a what? God is not an essence in Scripture and so my major point would be
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Not mine, but the Unitarian tradition which is now many many years old of course
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My main point would be that you really got this to reinvent language or this to go outside biblical language to describe this
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Trinity Why do I have to believe in an essence to describe God?
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Why do I have to talk essence at all the Bible doesn't? Now here you hear this kind of argumentation all the time look.
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You know just give me biblical language What he is doing is he is approaching this subject and acronistically he's coming at it backwards
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He's coming at the conclusion that has been come to after years and years of discussion where questions based in non biblical categories have been answered by going back to the biblical data and saying oh you shouldn't do that and Those very same questions and the answers that were given
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Were given in such a way as to expose those who would compromise some element of the biblical revelation
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But instead of going to the biblical data first you come out from the other direction trying to in essence poison the well trying to In essence convince people that there's just there's just no reason to go here
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This is this is a doctrine that comes much later. It's not quote -unquote biblical. We don't want we don't need to go here
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This is a waste of our time etc. Etc. Rather than recognizing the historical reality that these doctrines flow from the biblical
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Text there's no question about that, but they take the form they do So as to be able to answer questions about how we understand what the
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Bible itself is teaching He said he's gonna say well you know that we need to go back to the
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Old Testament well, but the Revelation the Trinity is between the Old and New Testaments and If you're going to limit the
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New Testament to only categories derived from the
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Old Testament Then the New Testament can never say anything new it can never it can never give us new revelation and it cannot prepare us to deal with the
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Gospels could go out into the whole world and In particular a world that that time is predominated by Greek philosophical thought
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You're going to in essence say the scriptures can't do that That's what you have with Sir Anthony's Sassanianism No one's asked you to believe that Both are true statements one is a biblical text the other is a
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Consolidation of an entire realms of biblical teaching as to the relationship between the Father and the
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Son, but it's just simply not fair To put the two of them in contrast unless you're going to prove
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That when it says today, I've begotten you that that means today. I have created you Which is not what is being talked about there?
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And of course there's just so much biblical evidence about the pre -existence of Christ But we're going to be getting into where he tries to get around The pre -existence of Christ and say that for example the word of John 1 1 is
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God's plan. It's God's purpose. It's an it not a he Etc etc that will will come up And how indeed can you be begotten in eternity
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The idea seems to be incomprehensible to be begotten means to bring it to existence to give existence to something
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It doesn't exist already. You can't be eternally begotten Now again notice that kind of argumentation he takes what it means for human beings to beget and Says ah
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I am going to take and insert that and Toto into what it means
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For to describe a relationship in the Godhead and that's what it's exactly what
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Muslims do That's why when I listened the first time I ever heard of Anthony buzzard was I think I could be wrong about this
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In fact, I'm gonna take that back But when I listened to Anthony buzzard, I think I think actually
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I had heard of him before this but I think the first time I heard him not heard of him, but heard him actually speak was
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Listening to the debate between himself and Shabir Ali and it was like the blind leading the blind Can you imagine a
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Sassanian debating a Muslim they're in agreement on almost everything they were saying and this argument concerning This idea of Jesus being begotten is identical between the two what it has to be a human thing
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No, it's not a human thing. It's a relationship thing. That's why it can be and must be eternal It's outside the realm of time that's why one does not precede the other in the sense of becoming the ground of being of the other or Creating the other
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The relationship is eternal. That is timeless. It did not begin the father's always been the father's son's always been the son
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You say what that can't be why can't it be well because I say so well, I don't accept that you say
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So I don't really care what you say. Why is it for an eternal being? Why can an eternal being not have an
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Eternal relationship that it does not begin in time. Why is that and he never explains that he just simply says well just can't be
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So the whole notion of trinitarian language that is when you unpack it and try to explain it becomes very very complex
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I really most impressed with the professor Sanders Artistic skills.
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They're simply wonderful. You must get a copy of his his attempt to do the Trinity for children It's really quite a splendid thing
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But when he gets to the section about explaining the meaning of these words, I wonder if children will understand
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You see if you can it's very complex And of course,
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I would I would immediately say all right first of all The complex argument is not much of an argument if you're talking about the highest revelation of God's being
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I would actually sort of expect That you might have to invest something more than a few moments To to synthesize the highest levels of God's revelation concerning himself
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Secondly I Actually find people to struggle greatly to understand some of the most basic elements of God's being
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Immutability Eternality are things that we struggle with because we're time bound creatures. We don't know anybody who fits into those categories other than God himself
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So does that somehow mean that they're that we are not to believe these things because some of my say well
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That's really complex. I remember when I was teaching at a very large Baptist Church many many years ago
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One of the complaints I would get from people was along the lines of well, you know, it can't just make it more simple
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Can't just make it more simple. Well, what does that mean? What do you want? What do you want from God?
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Just how simple do you want God to be is Is really the question? And there's a lot of folks that just they've they've bought into the idea that well the
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Christianity should be very simple It should be something that a three -year -old can understand Well, there are certain elements of the
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Christian faith that can be understandable on the child's level But if that's all we needed to know then the
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New Testament could have been a jack -chick track We didn't need as much as we've been given
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And in reality God's revelation is so deep and so harmonious and so interconnected
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That's no person in this life will ever plummets depths and I'm awful glad for that Is that we don't need the
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Trinity to explain the Bible We can say all those wonderful things that you want to say
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And I'll say that now Jesus is the exact expression of the father If you've seen
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Jesus, you've seen the father now, I stop right here and say no no No, no, you are not saying the same thing
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That we are saying in any way shape or form when I say he's the exact representation of the father.
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I Am NOT talking about simply a human being who is morally excellent as God is morally excellent
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Not saying the same thing in any way shape or form You're saying something considerably less than what
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I am saying at that point It doesn't mean that he is God he doesn't go around saying
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I am God He never said that he actually argues. He wasn't God when he was accused of being
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God He very quickly puts that argument to rest and says I'm not God in John 10
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Following the statement that I and the father are one Incidentally one in the music sense not one person that wasn't suggested
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Just one he immediately says that the judges were also called
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God Those verses are sometimes omitted No, they're not omitted many of us have dealt with them in depth numerous times over the years and it is a
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Complete misunderstanding of John chapter 10 and its presentation in reference to the relationship the father and son remember
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And I've said this many many times, but again, we always have new listeners What you have to be watching for when you're dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses Thessalonians oneness
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Muslims any of in that realm What you have to be watching for is the constant assumption of Unitarianism and for a
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Unitarian To assume Unitarianism in a debate on Unitarianism means he's arguing in a circle
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They will assume That for example the term God Can only be used of the father and once you show it's used the father than that obviously means the son can't really be
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God They will assume Unitarianism But they will normally assume Unitarianism while only proving monotheism
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Monotheism and Unitarianism are not the same thing. I Am a monotheist, but I'm a
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Trinitarian he is a monotheistic Unitarian and So you you have to catch those things and you have to challenge those things as they come up His explanation is that since judges human judges in the
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Old Testament could be called God then is it unreasonable that he who was virginally conceived and Dispatched into the world as God's Commissioner God's agent
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Is it unreasonable he says that he could call he called he could call himself the son of God Now that again like I said is a misuse of John chapter 10 what he's missing is that by citing
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Psalm 82 of His accusers he was identifying them as unrighteous judges
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Isn't it amazing how many times this text can be misused for so many different things? There's a there's a tendency to start getting tired of having to deal with it
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You know sort of like James 2 he was like oh not again, but we've got to fight that tendency His he's not saying well since the judges of Israel Were called gods in the
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Old Testament Then you shouldn't be upset that I call myself the Son of God he's saying yes, they were called gods in the
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Old Testament and They were unrighteous judges and Now they are accusing him of blasphemy because he and notice all the stuff
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He crammed into that that he was virginally concert conceive word that come up in John chapter 10
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Is he gotta remember for Sir Anthony? The reason G is the Son of God is only because he's virginally concert conceive.
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That's it That's the only reason he's the Son of God is because he is virgin His mother is a virgin.
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That's it. That's the only reason so he has to cram that in there Miss the application that these men are unrighteous judges
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What Jesus says is that the father has sanctified him and sent him into the world? And he identifies himself as the
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Son of God now remember. This is the same book John chapter 10 Where you've already had
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John chapter 5 come before it and I have to keep emphasizing that because so many people treat the
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Bible as Just a bunch of texts and so you can jump back and forth back and forth all over the place It's like when people jump out of John 6
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John 12 to try to get around with John 12 is saying Well, Jesus hadn't taught anything in John 12 yet His listeners had to be able to understand what he was saying at that point or they'll jump back and forth
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I just did a video haven't had a chance to put together yet because my system's been busy But I did a video yesterday in our new studios
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Responding to Tim Staples on justification by faith. I pointed out that as he was trying to prove justification
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My faith is a process. He kept jumping backwards in Paul's argument in Romans You know when someone has to be quoting from someone's argument backwards, that's a pretty good sign that they're not following the argument itself
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They are misrepresenting the argument not following the argument using the argument That's the same thing that's going on in John chapter 10
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John chapter 5 has already in it's shown us that Jesus is identifying himself
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With the father in such a unique relationship that the Jews recognize That's a claim to deity and Jesus does not deny this what he denies that he is some renegade deity out of Unity and harmony with the father.
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That's what John 5 is about But everyone who honors the father must honor the son who sent him
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That's what John 5 tells us. So in John 10 He says he is the
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Son of God He doesn't deny this and it's the same book that in John 19 7 says well
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He should be killed because he made himself out to be the Son of God Well, what was their law against that if Son of God is just simply, you know
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Someone who's just very much in harmony with God. Well, it isn't it was the blasphemy law It's the blasphemy law that was in in view at that particular point in time
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So keep that keep that in Jesus says he is the son of God I remind you
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Colin Brown statement to be called son of God the Bible means you're not God See how much he just uses that over and over and over again
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It just becomes a mantra and I really am gonna be very very interested to see exactly
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What Colin Brown was saying I would imagine my guess is going to be That he's talking about the fact that there is within the doctrine of the
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Trinity self distinctions as there are But does that mean that all those texts identify?
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Jesus as Yahweh all those texts identify Jesus as pre -existent that identified
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Jesus as a creator of all things are those all to be just dismissed Just gotten rid of on the basis of of what we don't know
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Well, we're gonna continue listening to sir Anthony buzzard in his presentations his arguments against the deity of Christ giving a response here on the dividing line
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Next week, please. Don't forget. We have a busy week I will be doing the dividing line on Tuesday But then an hour later
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I'm gonna be on with Michael Brown on his show talking about Calvinism Tuesday and Wednesday Thursday 90 minute dividing line with Tim Staples on first Corinthians chapter 3 verses 10 and following and his claim that they are the
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Clearest text on the subject of purgatory in the New Testament a very very busy week.
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Hope you'll be listening. We'll see you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries
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