Biblical & Historical Rebuttal of Tony Jones' "Better Atonement"

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These are the sounds of the emergent postmodern philharmonic orchestra conducted by Doug Paget and Tony Jones sitting in second fiddle today

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This is their spirit led rendition of Strauss's also sprung Zarathustra as you can tell they've been set free from the limiting definitions of modernist notes and are just able to just let the spirit guide them and Breathe through them as they breathe new life into this song here listen in Yes, there's nothing like postmodern music and That's a good thing.

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Yeah, if you know it's postmodern. You could just avoid it like the plague okay like yesterday We were talking about Tony Jones's appearance on the television program called the

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Harvest Show He was interviewed by one of the regular guests drew Summerall at regarding Tony Jones's book ebook out there the better atonement and Yesterday we got to hear

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Tony Jones give us his definition of theology and theology is basically everything and as soon as theology becomes

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Everything then it becomes nothing because like I've pointed out yesterday theology

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Christian theology is an observational science We must look into the written

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Word of God because all scripture the written Word of God Is God breathe and is profitable for teaching correcting rebuking and training in righteousness

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So the man of God may be fully equipped for every good work in other words

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When it comes to what was Jesus doing on the cross okay coming up with an answer to that theologically is

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Impossible and this is what I mean impossible to do Without a revelation from God telling us what

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Jesus was doing on the cross to any Observer who was happened to be outside of the just outside the walls of Jerusalem on that particular

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Friday You know they would have been walking into Jerusalem And you know and they would have noticed that the

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Sun had been darkened you know Strange things were afoot, and they would have noticed three crosses out there on Golgotha and You know and there was

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Jesus. They may have heard him saying things like father forgive them They know not what they're doing or he may they may have heard him saying crying out

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Eloy Eloy Love us a bakhtani may oh my god my god. Why have you forsaken me or they may have heard him saying to?

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John the Apostle John You know Son you know your mother mother your son.

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You know yeah, and you know things like that they may have Witnessed things like that, but all they would have known is is that well

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There's some poor guy who's you know obviously run afoul of the Roman Empire. They're making an example of him

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He's obviously an evil doer Because cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree and they probably would have kept on walking right unless they of course they knew who?

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Jesus was and isn't that the oh well well we had had hopes that Jesus was the

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Messiah well I guess we were wrong it turns out. He's a criminal after all you see what I'm saying So they wouldn't have been able to theologically connect any of the dots as to what what's going on They're just in witnessing or walking past these the historical event same with us

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Without a clear word from God telling us in Scripture What Jesus was doing on the cross you and I are left in the dark there be no way for us to store it to Theologically interpret what's going on there?

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We have no way of getting at it, okay? But thankfully God has not left us in the dark and we have in Scripture clear

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Text inspired by God the Holy Spirit they anews to us These are God -breathed words that tell us what

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Jesus was doing on the cross now Do you think for a second that Tony Jones is gonna go to those to tell us what

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Jesus was doing on the cross? I wouldn't bet on it in fact You're gonna be rather disappointed in Tony Jones, and you should be disappointed not only in him

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But also drew Summerall and the folks over at the Harvest Show for allowing him to air this false

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Theology that doesn't have its origin in the Word of God so that any further ado here is

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John drew Summerall and Tony Jones discussing Tony Jones's book a better atonement here

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And we're back with Tony Jones the author of the the new best -selling e -book after today a better atonement

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So first of all for folks who maybe it's got to stop a better atonement.

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I mean talk about Theological hubris I mean a

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Better atonement like I can I can improve upon what God's Word says Seriously, I mean

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Good night. You aren't familiar with that word I'm sure they're familiar with what we're going to talk about, but just the word atonement.

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What does that even mean? Yeah, it's a technical theological term so we can avoid it for the rest of the interview if you like I wouldn't mind

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But it means what happened when Jesus died on the cross, so what does that mean for us as far as doctrine?

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Yeah, so like you know when you're a kid somebody says to you Jesus died for your sins And you're like okay, and you accept that and you accept

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Jesus into your heart at a certain point Often it happens during like mid -adolescence. You'll be like How exactly does that work?

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What do you mean Jesus like by what? cosmic Calculus yes the death of Jesus cleansed me of my sins.

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Yeah, and that's where Theology kicks in it's like oh well actually as my book shows there have been like about a dozen major Ideas of how the math works that Jesus dying on a cross cleanses us of our sin

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I'd say probably the most popular Today in the

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West in America an evangelical Christian would be that of or maybe a menu of including at the top

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What is penal substitution? What is that theory of the atonement right? That's another technical term

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So it basically boils down to this God is angry at you because of your sin

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And God's sense of justice is so all -encompassing that God couldn't possibly allow you

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Into his presence because you're sinful end of story until Jesus steps between you two takes

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God's wrath and now God looks at you and all he sees is

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Jesus and now you can Experience eternal life with God now. Let me play devil's advocate somebody's probably watching going well.

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That's exactly the way it is That's what Paul says in Romans and that has been the theory of the atonement since the early church, right wrong

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Good question, but no Now before we let him go on Let's take a look at our

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Bibles. Okay He talks in terms of theories of the atonement

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No There's biblical passages that explain what was going on when

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Jesus was hanging on the cross Let's look at them. Okay, I dare not

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I dare not Speculate here. Okay. So if I'm gonna tell you what

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Jesus was doing on the cross what you know What that was all about? I'm going to say the same thing as Scripture says that's what we're called to do.

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By the way, the technical term there is confession and in the Greek It's homily go means to say the same thing as so I'm going to confess what

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Scripture says Regarding what Christ was doing on the cross will begin with Isaiah chapter 53

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Isaiah chapter 53. I'll start at verse 1 Here's what the prophet Isaiah prophesying

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Regarding Jesus's crucifixion said about it Who has believed what he has heard from us and to whom has the arm of the

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Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant and like a root out of dry ground He had no form of majesty that we should look at him and no beauty that we should desire him he was despised and rejected by men a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief and as one from whom men hid their faces he

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Was despised and we esteemed him not Surely, he has borne our griefs and carried our our sorrows yet.

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We esteemed him stricken smitten by God and afflicted but He was pierced for our transgressions

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He was crushed for our iniquities upon him was the chastisement that brought us

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Peace and with his wounds or by his wounds. We are

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Healed. Okay. Now the the Hebrew here For chastisement can also literally be translated punished

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Okay So upon him was the punishment that brought us peace and by his wounds

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We are healed all we like sheep have gone astray and we have turned everyone to his own way and the

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Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all He was oppressed he was afflicted and yet he opened not his mouth and like a lamb that is led to the slaughter and like a sheep that Before it shears is silent.

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So he opened not his mouth By oppression and judgment. He was taken away and as for his generation who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living

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Stricken for the transgressions of my people and they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death

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Although he had done no violence and there was no deceit in his mouth yet. It was the will of the

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Lord to crush him He has put him to grief when his soul makes an offering for guilt.

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He shall see his offspring He shall prolong his days the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand and out of the anguish of his soul

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He shall see and be satisfied by his knowledge shall the righteous one my servant make many to be accounted or credited

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Righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities Okay, so we can glean from Isaiah chapter 53 that Jesus whom this is prophesying about Was pierced for our transgressions bruised for our iniquities the chastisement the punishment that brought us peace was upon him

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God crushed him God laid on him the iniquity of us all this is what the text says

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How that works don't know I can tell you that this is what the text says

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Okay, I'm not called to challenge God's Word. I'm not called to disbelieve it to muddy it or just cast it aside and say

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I don't like this Instead I'm called to believe it teach it confess it this

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Passage is God breathed right now. There's more. Okay.

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Let me take you to the book of Hebrews the book of Hebrews by the way Really take some time in fleshing this out and you know as it's written to Hebrew Christians It go it the book of Hebrews itself takes great pains to explain how the

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Old Testament sacrificial system Was a type and shadow pointing us to the real thing the real thing being the death of Jesus Christ, so think of think of the entire

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Old Testament system of animal sacrifices that Was to point us to Jesus the one true sacrifice who makes peace between us and the father

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Through his blood. Okay, why because we need our sins to be forgiven and this explains certain things

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Theologically for us that we wouldn't know. Otherwise, I'll start at chapter 8 and I'm gonna keep reading for a while Even though this is technical stuff in this chapter

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I would recommend reading it yourself as I'm as I'm as I'm reading it for you or take some time afterwards to walk through the passage

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Hebrews chapter 8 here's what it says now the point in what we are saying is this we have such a high priest one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the

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Majesty in heaven a minister in the holy places in the very true tent that the

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Lord set up not man For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices

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Thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer Now if he were on earth

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He would not be a priest at all since there are priests who would offer according to the law

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They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things for when Moses was about to erect the tent

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He was instructed by God saying see that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown to you on the mountain

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But as it is Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more Excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better since it is enacted on better promises

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For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second

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For he finds fault with them when he says behold the days are coming declares the Lord when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when

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I took them by the hand To bring them out of the land of Egypt for they did not continue in my covenant

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And so I showed no concern for them declares the Lord for this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days declares the

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Lord I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts and I will be their

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God and they shall be my people And they shall not teach each one his neighbor and each one his brother saying know the

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Lord For they shall all know me from the least to the greatest for I will be merciful towards their iniquities

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And I will remember their sins no more now in speaking of a new covenant

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He makes the first one obsolete and what is becoming obsolete and growing old is all is all is ready to vanish away now

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Even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness

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For a tent was prepared for the first section in which there The lampstand and the table and the bread of the presence

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It is called the holy place behind the second curtain was the second section called the most holy place having the golden altar of incense and the

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Ark of the Covenant covered on all sides with gold and Which was a golden urn holding the manna and Aaron's staff that budded and the tablets of the covenant

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Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat and of these things

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We cannot now speak in detail These preparations having thus been made the priests go regularly into the first section performing their ritual duties

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But in the second only the high priest goes and he but once a year and not without taking blood

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Which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people by this

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Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing which is symbolic for the present age now according to this arrangement gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the

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Conscience of the worshiper but deal only with food and drink and various washings regulations for the body imposed until the time of Reformation But when

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Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come Then through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands that is not of this creation

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He entered once and for all into the holy places Not by means of the blood of goats and calves

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But by means of his own blood thus securing an eternal redemption

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For if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer

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Sanctify for the purification of the flesh Well, how much more will the blood of Christ who through the eternal spirit offered himself without blemish to God?

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Purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God Therefore he

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Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant So that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance since the death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant

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For where a will is involved the death of the one who made it must be established

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For a will takes effect only at death since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is still alive therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood for when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all of the people he took the blood of calves and goats with water and Scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled both the book itself and all of the people

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Saying this is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in the worship indeed under the law almost everything is purified with blood and without the shedding of blood

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There is no Forgiveness of sins. Let me read that again

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Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins

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Now does the Bible say why that is? No, it doesn't it just says that this is absolutely necessary We continue though thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rights

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But the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these For Christ has entered not into holy places made with hands which are copies of the true things

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But he entered into heaven itself now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf

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Nor was it to offer himself Repeatedly as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

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For then he Jesus would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world but as it is he has appeared once and for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself and Just as it is appointed for man to die once and after that comes the judgment

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So Christ having been offered once to bear the sins of many will appear a second time not to deal with sin

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But to save those who eagerly are waiting for him

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Okay, so you kind of get the idea of what's going on here that Jesus Christ his blood

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Shed is for the forgiveness of our sins. This is what

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Scripture Clearly says that he redeems us that he suffered in our place and Basically took all of our sins upon himself and through his blood.

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We then are saved Got it. That's what the text says.

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Let me point you to another passage 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 all of this is from God the verse 18.

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All of this is from God who through Christ Reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation

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That is in Christ. God was reconciling the world to himself not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation

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Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ and God is making his appeal through us So we implore you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God For our sake he

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God made Jesus to be sin who knew no sin So that in him we might become the righteousness of God another passage 1st

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Timothy chapter 2 verses 5 and 6 for there is one God and There is one mediator between God and men the man

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Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all Which is the testimony given at the proper time?

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And then I was just simply add to this Paul's Synopsis is summary of the gospel itself.

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You want to know what the gospel the good news is Paul actually summarizes the gospel that he preaches in fact

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Many good biblical scholars believe that what we have in this passage is one of the very first and earliest

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Christian creeds or confessions 1st Corinthians chapter 15 starting at verse 1

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Paul says now I would remind you brothers of the gospel the good news that I preached To you which you believed in which you stand and by which you are being saved if you hold fast to the word that I preached to you unless you believed in vain for I delivered as of first importance what

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I received that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scripture that he was buried that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scripture and that he appeared

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To Cephas then to the twelve then he appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time Most of whom are still alive

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Though some have follows Fallen asleep then he appeared to James and all the Apostles and last of all to one untimely born.

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He appeared also to me Got it. So it's pretty straightforward and I don't know how it all works.

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But this I do know that God the Father laid on Jesus the iniquity of us all

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That God made him Jesus to be sin who knew no sin So that we might be the righteousness of God and as Paul points out in Philippians chapter 3

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That we who are in Christ don't have a righteousness of our own that comes through the law

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But we are clothed in the righteousness of God the righteousness that comes by faith Okay, so there's like a double exchange that goes on our sins are laid on Christ He is pierced for our transgressions he is crucified for our sins and dies his blood

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Establishes for us the forgiveness of our sins and it's it's a redemption. It's a penal

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Substitutionary sacrifice that propitiates the wrath of God. This is what all the biblical texts say

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Okay, I can't go beyond that Because I have nothing that I can hang on to outside of Scripture That's going to shed any better light than what the light that Scripture says

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So I then I'm to embrace and teach what Scripture says and teaches say the same thing as Now one of the things

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I took the time to do Is on my letter of Mark blog. I have a new blog post called

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Penal substitution in the writings of the Church Fathers Penal substitution in the writings of the

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Church Fathers and what I want to read for you are Some of these quotes from the earliest Christian Church Fathers who are teaching the same thing as what the passages

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I just read for you are for instance, Justin Martyr who lived from about 100

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AD to 165 in his work entitled dialogue with Trifo which you can find in the writings of the anti -nicean fathers in chapter 95 in his dialogue with trifo

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Here's what Justin Martyr says? Okay, we talked about talks about Christ who took upon himself the curse due to us

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Here's what Justin Martyr says For the whole human race will be found to be under a curse for it is written in the law of Moses cursed is everyone

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That continue with not and all the things that are written in the book of the law and continue to do them that's

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Deuteronomy 27 verse 26 and No one has accurately done all nor will you venture to deny this?

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But some more and some less and others have observed the ordinances and joined But if those who are under this law appear to be under a curse for not having observed all the requirements

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How much more shall all the nations appear to be under a curse who practice idolatry who seduce youths?

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And commit other crimes if then the father of all wished his Christ for the whole human family to take upon him

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The curses of all knowing that after he had been crucified and was dead. He would raise him up Why do you argue about him who submitted to suffer these things according to the father's will as if as if he were?

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Accursed and do not rather be well yourselves for although his father Caused him to suffer these things in behalf of the human family yet You did not commit the deed as in disobedience to the will of God For you did not practice piety when you slew the prophets and not and let none of you say if his father wished him to Suffer this in order that by his stripes the human race might be healed we have done no wrong if indeed you repent of your sins and Recognize him to be the

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Christ and observe his commandments Then you may assert this for as I have said before remission of sins shall be yours or forgiveness but if you curse him and Then and them that believe on him and when you have the power and when you have the power put them to death how is it possible that requisition shall not be made of you as of unrighteousness of Unrighteous and sinful men altogether hard -hearted without understanding because you laid your hands on him

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Okay, here's Eusebius of Caesarea who wrote between 275 and 339

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AD. Okay. Here's what he says So it is said and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity

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He bears our sins thus the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world became a curse on our behalf

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Whom though he knew no sin God made sin for our sake giving him as redemption for all that we might become the righteousness of God in him 2nd

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Corinthians 5 21 and How can he make our sins his own and be said to bear our iniquities?

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except by our being regarded as his body according to the apostle who says now ye are the body of Christ and Severally members of it and by the rule that if one member suffers all the members suffer with it

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So when the many members suffer and sin he too by the laws of sympathy takes into himself the labors of the suffering members and makes our sickness his and Suffers all of our woes and labors by the laws of love and the

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Lamb of God not only did this but was Chastised on our behalf and suffered a penalty he did not owe but which we owed because of the multitude of our sins and so he became the cause of the

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Forgiveness of our sins because he received death for us and transferred to himself the scourging and the insults and the dishonor which

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Which were due to us and drew down upon himself the appointed curse being made a curse for us

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Hillary appointees in Who wrote between 300 and 368 on his homily on Psalm 53 says this?

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For next there follows I will sacrifice unto thee freely the sacrifices of the law which consisted of whole burnt offerings and ablations of goats and of bulls

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Did not involve an expression of free will because the sentence of a curse was pronounced on all who broke the law

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Whoever failed the sacrifice laid himself open to the curse and it was always necessary to go through the whole sacrificial action because the addition of a curse to the commandment forbade any trifling with the obligation of offering a

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Was from this curse that our Lord Jesus Christ redeemed us when as the Apostle says Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law

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Being made curse for us for it is written cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree Thus he offered himself to death of the accursed that he might break the curse of the law offering himself voluntarily a victim to God the

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Father in order that by means of a Voluntary victim the curse which attended the discontinuance of the regular victim might be removed

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Athanasius in his book on the incarnation He says this thus taking a body like our own because of our bodies were liable to the corruption of death

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He surrendered his body to death in place of all and offered it to the father

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He did he did out of sheer love for us so that his death

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That in his death all might die and the law of death thereby abolished because having fulfilled in his body

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That for which was it was appointed. It was thereafter voided of its power for men Thus he did that he might turn again into into incorruption men who had turned back to corruption and make them alive through death by the

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Appropriation of his body and by the grace of his resurrection thus he would make death to disappear from them utterly as Straw from fire and then later in the same work.

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Here's what he says the word That's Jesus perceived that corruption could not be got rid of otherwise Then through death yet He himself as the word being immortal and the father son was such as could not die for this reason

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Therefore he Jesus assumed a body capable of death in order that it through through belonging to the word who is above all might become in dying a sufficient exchange for all and itself remain incorruptible through his indwelling might thereafter put an end to corruption for all others as well by the grace of the

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Resurrection it was by surrendering to death the body which he had taken as an offering in a sacrifice free from every stain that he forthwith abolished death for his human brethren and by the offering of the equivalent for naturally since the

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Word of God was above all when he offered his own temple and Bodily instrument as a substitute for the life of all he fulfilled in death all that was required

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I'll read one more of these. This is from John Christopherson on his homilies on 2nd

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Corinthians Christopherson writes he says if one that was himself a king beholding a robber and Malefactor and the punishment gave his well -beloved son is only begotten son and true to be slain and Transferred the death and the guilt as well from him to his son who was himself of no such character

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That he might both save the condemned man and clear him from his evil Reputation and then if having subsequently promote

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Promoted him to great dignity. He had yet after thus saving him and advancing him to the glory

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Unspeakable been outraged by the person that it received such treatment would not that man if he had any sense have chosen 10 ,000 deaths rather than appear guilty of so great in gratitude

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This then let us also now consider with ourselves and groan bitterly for the provocations

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We have offered our benefactor nor let us therefore presume because through outrage he bears it with long suffering

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But rather for this very reason be full of remorse now, I have other quotes from the church fathers including

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Gregory of Nazianzus Ambrose of Milan Augustine of Hippo Gelsea I Can't pronounce this one

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Gelsea's of yeah, it's fifth century church father and then as well as Gregory the

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Great now There's more that I could put here But the point is is that when you read the writings of the church fathers the church fathers have absolutely no problem

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Whatsoever talking about the fact that Jesus Christ became a curse for us that he was chastised for us that he suffered our

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Penalty in our place the church fathers have no problem discussing this and the church fathers that I'm quoting from Show up really really early in Christendom and the point is this where did these church fathers get these ideas from?

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Answer from the written Word of God that so clearly tells us what Jesus was doing on the cross now

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Do you think that Tony Jones is gonna point us to these church fathers? Do you think

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Tony Jones is gonna point us to these passages and then tell us what these passages say?

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Jesus was doing on the cross Well, no, he's a post -modern liberal theologian

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He's not gonna point us to what the Word of God says gonna point us elsewhere Let's listen in that theory of the atonement is is modern

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It's happened only recently Because really that's weird because I just quoted, you know, half a dozen church fathers who all teach it

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How is that modern? It happened really it started with a guy named

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Anselm in the Middle Ages Just as though there was no such thing before a thousand before the year a thousand

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AD as that really that's weird because not only did I quote the Bible which you know in the

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New Testament passages, which were finished well before 70 AD But I quoted

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Justin Martyr from the early 2nd century Eusebius of Caesarea late 3rd century

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Hillary of Poitiers Again, he's 4th century Athanasius 4th century

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Yeah, and I could bring others to bear here That's weird because Tony Jones just emphatically said this didn't exist until a thousand

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AD Weird I mean, I just quoted people that Teach penal substitution long before a thousand

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AD. Listen again That theory of the atonement is is modern.

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It's happened only recently because It happened really it started with a guy named

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Anselm in the Middle Ages Just as though there was no such thing before a thousand before the year a thousand

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AD as that was thought of as like Modern legal theory there was no such thing people lived in feudal systems with you know, a lordly modern legal theory

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Okay, let me again go to the quote from Christostom. Okay, listen to this

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Modern legal theory and this was written in the fourth century Okay if one that was himself a king beholding a robber and a malefactor under punishment gave his well -beloved son is only begotten and true to be slain and Transferred the death and the guilt as well from him to his son

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Who was himself of no such character that he might both save the condemned man and clear him from his evil reputation

36:01

That's that is fourth century Okay How is this possible?

36:09

I mean, this is a miracle before there was any modern legal theory Good night before there's any modern legal theory.

36:16

We have John Christostom Discussing Jesus's death in terms of legal theory

36:23

And that's out of place because this was this idea regarding Christ's death on the cross and the atonement was not supposed to happen until well the

36:32

The thousand AD right just as though there was no such thing Before a thousand before the year a thousand

36:40

AD as that was thought of is like modern legal theory There was no such thing people lived in feudal systems with you know

36:49

A Lord lived up on a hill and all the serfs lived, you know down the slopes and they paid

36:55

Homage to their Lord and the Lord protected them. Well interestingly theories of the atonement

37:01

Before the year 1000 looked a lot more like that like it's a Lord protecting vassals or serfs and Protecting those people from the attacks of evil

37:13

So in those days there was it's weird because I mean what I just read from the ancient church fathers and sound anything like what?

37:20

Tony Jones is describing weird, huh? It's a very popular theory of the atonement that said what

37:26

Jesus did on the cross primarily was Defeated Satan. Yeah defeated the person who's trying to destroy you and this would be the

37:34

Christus the Christus victor is the Latin term for it, but Christ the victor over Satan Well now we live in a the most litigious legal society in history you and I so notice here this is kind of the the

37:50

Unwritten premise here and I'll point it out is that Tony Jones is basically saying that oh all of these theologies are based upon Cultural understandings

38:00

Okay, and so as culture changes and advances the ideas about what

38:05

Jesus was doing on the cross change as well None of so in the way He's there's no such thing as as a biblical anchored once for all delivered to the

38:14

Saints doctrine regarding Christ atonement No, no, no. Yeah, you just there's there's modifications going on as a result of cultural influences.

38:22

And so, you know, basically Theories of the atonement abound because well cultures change and you know, that's the kind of thing.

38:31

So it doesn't yeah Yeah, this penal substitutionary stuff This is just a cultural development has nothing to do with what

38:37

Jesus was really doing on the cross between federal law state law and local ordinances

38:43

We have you and I each have more laws over us than any other human beings who've ever existed

38:50

Yeah, we think legally So no surprise we have a very legalistic under Understanding of the atonement and that's where you get things like maybe when you were a kid in youth group

39:03

You heard something like God's a judge He condemns you to death and then he takes off the robe and goes to the electric

39:10

Kind of Jesus the lawyer. So right becomes a very judicial kind of Kate now. I want to point this out.

39:16

This is Just a really bad sermon illustration that he's shooting down He's not actually touching the biblical text to say that he was pierced for our transgressions

39:28

Bruised for our iniquities. No, he's not touching those texts. He's shooting down a sermon illustration

39:35

That's not the same thing as dealing with what the clear biblical passages say

39:40

The thing like there's a price to be paid you you've done something wrong You earn a penalty

39:47

Someone needs to pay that penalty but the funny thing about this thing is like if that ever happened in an actual courtroom and the judge is like But I'm gonna go to the electric chair for this man.

39:58

I've just condemned to death Everybody in the courtroom be like no dude. That's not how it works That's not justice like you don't get to do that And the reason it breaks down is because well the analogy in our legal system a judge doesn't have that authority

40:15

Change it though to something like a kingdom where the legislative branch the executive branch and the judicial branch all lie in the king and Then it starts to make sense

40:29

That's right. That's not just so in the last 30 years. We've seen the emergence to use that word of Some new theories one of which has been developed by Rene Girard who

40:40

I'm a very big fan. Oh, yeah Was it some of his theories that made you want to write about the

40:46

Atonement yeah, I think his theories are fascinating So he comes at it. He brings kind of a fresh perspective because he's an anthropologist and not a theologian so he's so we're gonna have a fresh perspective on the

40:58

Atonement from an Anthropologist again. My question is what's gonna be your source for coming up with Christian doctrine

41:05

God's Word or man's Teachings and ideas and philosophies and he says look throughout primitive human history people said when bad things happen it it's because two people want the same thing and Conflict builds up and resentment builds up and violence it ends up happening

41:29

I mean in the earlier reports on Israel We might even look at the whole Thing of what continues to happen in the

41:34

Middle East of all these resentments over the same piece of property And so then violence happens and Girard says what people did in primitive religions was you know?

41:44

They throw a virgin into a volcano right or they Sacrifice an innocent victim. Yeah, I said all that and all the tension dissipates, right?

41:52

Temporarily right right until it starts. It's just called a scapegoat scapegoat theory right and so Girard says

41:58

But when Jesus goes to the cross he shows the bankruptcy of that whole system

42:04

Violence does really so what passage in the New Testament or old because Isaiah 53 is from the

42:11

Old Testament Tells us that Jesus goes to the cross to show us the bankruptcy of the sacrificial system

42:17

Does not cure anybody of their resentment it never works It's a dead end and by God going to the cross we look at Jesus on the cross and go

42:28

It doesn't work the last scapegoat Not because he's the perfect scapegoat

42:34

But because he shows the whole system of scapegoating and bloodletting and violence to relieve pressure in society doesn't work

42:41

We have weird huh because who was the one who? basically revealed and commanded the entire

42:49

Old Testament sacrificial system, which has nothing to do with you know resolving conflict in society per se answer

42:59

God himself instituted the Old Testament sacrificial system So here we've just got this theory this we just make up all kinds of theories

43:07

You know you know I I like the Elvis theory okay that Jesus was actually because you know

43:12

There's a lot of people who still think that Elvis is still alive And that really what happened is is that that Elvis he didn't really die okay?

43:21

he was beamed up to the mothership that was on the other side of the hale -bob comet and What happened is is that once he got on board the mothership?

43:30

you know Elvis went back in time and You know and kind of like yeah, you know the the quantum leap program.

43:38

He actually exchanged souls with Jesus on the cross and so Elvis is really the one who died

43:48

On the cross not Jesus because Jesus can't die because he's God so Elvis did it

43:54

So it's the Elvis theory of the atonement see I think it's a great theory Don't you and you can just spin out all kinds of theories that you that you like right?

44:02

And he who's to say your theory is any better than my theory. I like the Elvis theory But see the thing is is that that's not

44:09

Christian doctrine the question is what has God revealed in his word in the inspired?

44:17

Theonoustos God breathed word of God What does it say and it tells us what

44:23

Jesus was doing on the cross God made him to be sin who knew no sin? So that we might become the righteousness of God It was the will of the father to crush him without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins

44:37

This is what scripture says this is not what? Tony Jones is appealing to he's literally created and Theological house of smoke not even cards because cards have substance some real substance to him

44:54

I know smoke technically, you know and it's at on the atomic level has substance I've otherwise we wouldn't see it to smoke but the thing is is that this is so flimsy that all you have to do is blow on it and It disappears.

45:08

It just goes away in a puff of smoke because this is not based on anything biblical

45:13

I have to find peaceful ways to resolve our conflict. So as a just a typical

45:19

Christian at home as they reflect upon their salvation. How important do you think it is of?

45:27

whatever Theory of the atonement or doctrine that they cling to how important is that to their salvation?

45:33

So if you believe in this new, you know theory based upon the ideas of an anthropologist

45:40

Jesus is the last scapegoat I mean, are you still saved? You don't believe

45:46

Jesus died for your sins. Do you know you don't you don't believe that he was pierced for your transgressions

45:52

He was bruised for iniquities. You believe in a basically a false Jesus and a false gospel

45:59

Okay, if you believe in the Elvis theory of the atonement, are you saved? No, you're not at all

46:05

Well, there's a tooth. There's a two -sided answer to that question. The first side is not that important If you embrace that Jesus death on the cross had cosmic significance that you can identify with that In fact since the early church people have said this is a primarily important doctrine but it's not a doctrine that gets you in or out of heaven your understanding of Jesus death on the cross or the atonement.

46:32

That's not what does it for you? So it's not that important So apparently I mean you can believe that Jesus was doing anything, you know, you come up with the you know

46:41

The hopscotch theory of the atonement yet doesn't take your money. Take your pick. It doesn't matter if you get it, right or not.

46:48

I Would argue that it absolutely get it is absolutely required. Here's the reason why okay.

46:54

Let me give you a biblical argument Galatians chapter 1. Okay Paul writing to the church in Galatia says this

47:04

I am astonished This is verse 6 that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different Gospel a different good news

47:14

Not that there is another but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel that is contrary to the one that we preached let him be accursed as we have said before so now

47:33

I say again if anyone is preaching to you a gospel Contrary to the one that you received.

47:40

Let him be accursed anathema damned okay, so Paul here makes the gospel itself the substance of the gospel message itself a

47:52

Non -negotiable for Christians. Okay, so this has nothing to do with church councils

47:57

This has everything to do with what Scripture clearly says

48:04

According to God the Holy Spirit if you believe a different gospel, then you are

48:11

Damned this is what Scripture says. So what is the gospel that Paul preached?

48:18

I just read it to you earlier. Let me read it again first Corinthians 15 For I delivered to you as a first importance what

48:26

I also received that Christ died for our sins

48:33

In other words, it is a central core non -negotiable tenant of biblical doctrine and the gospel itself that Christ died for our sins if you don't believe that because you've masked it with a different atonement theory

48:59

Well, according to first to Galatians chapter 1 you're damned That's not my opinion.

49:07

That's what the scripture says It's an all -or -nothing either you truly believe and trust

49:12

Christ for the forgiveness of your sins because he was pierced for your transgressions

49:18

He was he was crucified for your sins you either believe that that's the biblical gospel or you believe a false gospel and it's so core and so central and so, you know it what

49:33

Christianity is all about that If you don't understand that Jesus died for your sins, and you don't believe that Then according to the

49:42

Apostle Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit You're damned It's not my argument.

49:50

That's the Bible's argument and back it up Listen again, in fact since the early church people have said this is a primarily important doctrine but it's not a doctrine that gets you in or out of heaven your understanding of Jesus death on the cross or the atonement that's not what does it for you?

50:07

So it's not that important to get it, right? In fact, there was no early Church Council that decided on one doctrine of the atonement like they did with the

50:16

Trinity or the divinity Of Christ or what books make the Bible maybe wasn't quite as central as we think it is now, right?

50:22

Oh, no, the reason why this is a fallacious argument is real simple Okay Church councils that put down heresies were called specifically because there were heresies that were teaching

50:33

Contrary for instance one of the reasons why the Council of Nicaea had to deal with the doctrine of the

50:39

Trinity is because of the Arian heresy Okay What he's pointing to here basically the the argument simple that you don't have people within the visible church

50:51

Challenging and coming up with an alternate understanding of what Jesus was doing on the cross

50:56

Okay, as a result of it, there wasn't a heresy that had to be put down It was you for the most part even heretics understood the clear with text that Jesus died for our sins

51:08

And they understood that it to basically mean what it said. Does that make sense?

51:14

So this is not a good argument because church councils are convened to put down heresies not just just affirm

51:23

You know basic core tenets of Christianity. Does that make sense? Yeah, the reason why church councils have to address heresies and deal with them is because a heresy has arisen

51:33

So this is not a good argument, which clearly wasn't that's right The other side of that coin those

51:39

I say it's incredibly important. Yeah, it's the single most important event if you're a

51:45

Christian It's a single most important event. It is the event in all of cosmic history. Yeah So look at it meditate on it and I think if nothing else look at Jesus hanging on the cross and go and think to myself think to yourself as Paul sings in Philippians 2 that God became human being and that God experienced ultimate

52:08

Solidarity with us as human beings with our sense of loss our sense of loneliness

52:13

What Paul doesn't say that in Philippians 2 what is this? This is post -modern liberal gobbledygook.

52:20

Listen again that God became human being and that God experienced ultimate solidarity

52:27

With us as human beings with our sense of loss our sense of loneliness and on the cross even on the cross

52:35

Jesus yells out my God. Why have you forsaken me? Yes, so Jesus is on the cross experiencing solidarity with our loneliness

52:43

That's not the gospel That's a different gospel. That's incredible. No, that's ridiculously vapid

52:52

Well again, the the book is if you want to learn a little more it is a better atonement by Yeah, that's not a better atonement.

52:59

That's like not even an atonement. It's like worse The professor the great dr.

53:06

Tony Jones if you'd like to connect with Tony you can go to Tony j .net or as we mentioned before done man was that horrible

53:15

Yeah, so again my question. Why is this on a mainstream?

53:21

Evangelical Television program that was a false gospel false view of the atonement not based on scripture

53:27

But just literally based on nothing but the ideas of men Unbelievable.

53:35

All right, we're gonna take our first break we come back We're gonna listen to Jonathan Welton wax eloquent regarding the passage that forbids women for Speaking in church very duplicitous.

53:46

Don't want to miss that. It'll be a short segment then we'll do Second break and then our sermon review so things are a little off in the timing stay tuned

53:55

We'll get it all worked out here in a few minutes. You don't want to miss it all. We'll be right back If you think

54:08

God is a black woman named Papa, then you need to get out of the shack and read your Bible You're listening to fighting for the faith

54:22

You're listening to pirate Christian radio will be taking your false doctrine I You're listening to the emergence sports network here on pirate

55:00

Christian radio You've tuned in just in time to catch today's emergence ball match between the promo bombers and the majestic mystics

55:12

Today's match is proudly brought to you by Rex Kwan Doe's Bible pants Mmm, there's the buzzer and they're off McLaren dribbles a pigskin down to first base takes out his putter and whoa

55:26

Jones checks McLaren against the boards and then passes to pageant in left field

55:32

But wait, who's Webber is charging from the 10 -yard line and she's slam -dunked from the foul line. That's a birdie

55:38

The crowd is going wild. When was the last time you saw something like that?

55:44

I don't think I've ever seen anything like this Okay play is resuming there's

55:49

Rollins He serves to Bell Bell snatches the snitch and then Hail Mary passes to McLaren McLaren is in the end zone

55:54

Oh and he slaps it back to third base Tickle grabs her wicket and then punts one out into center court.

56:00

It looks like Jones and pageant a double -team balls Webber He doesn't have a shot. So she slices one off into the rough

56:07

McLaren is there to make the safety but pageant grabs McLaren's face mask and then throws down to second base

56:16

What a brilliant save that was Jones takes out his driver then sends one out to midfield

56:23

Tickle headbutts the ball and then sends it back to McLaren. He vaults over the pommel horse. Oh, and he sticks the landing

56:33

Unfortunately, the degree of difficulty wasn't that high but McLaren racked up seven brownie points Tickle sets up for the kickoff

56:43

But wait Jones is trying to steal third base Tickle slapshots the ball back to Bulls Webber, but Jones is safe.

56:49

He's safe That means it's going to be third down with 44 meters to the pin.