November 28, 2023 with Jinger Duggar Vuolo on “Becoming Free Indeed: My Story of Disentangling Faith From Fear”

The Program Opens in Carlisle and Introduces the Day’s Guest

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe.

It's iron sharpens iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today. Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better. It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of iron sharpens iron radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 28th day of November 2023, and I'm thrilled to have a returning guest today whose name is Ginger Duggar Volo.

That last name Volo may sound familiar to you because I just recently had my guest's mother-in-law on the program, Diana Volo, to discuss her ministry, Swan. And I have also interviewed on a number of occasions my guest's father-in-law, Pastor Chuck Volo, but today we have the honor and privilege of having back on the show Ginger Duggar Volo, who is the sixth child of Jim Bob and Michelle Duggars, 19 children, and she's a wife, a mother, and Christian author.

And today we're going to be addressing her new book, Becoming Free Indeed, my story of disentangling faith from fear. It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Ginger Duggar Volo.

Thank you so much for having me, Chris.

Growing Up in a House Church and a Patchwork of Teachings

First of all, I'd like our listeners to get an idea of the kind of home in which you were raised because that is really what is the catalyst behind this book to begin with. But as far as the theological makeup of the church and the denominational affiliation, was it a independent Bible church, non-denominational type of church, or was it a part of a denomination?

And any kind of theological makeup that you can recount, I know that your husband is a sovereign grace-believing Christian, theologically reformed, and so on, as is his parents. But in contrast to that, tell us something about your own upbringing in church.

Yeah, so it's interesting. Actually, our setting where I grew up with my family, we were more so like in a home church setting and didn't have formal leadership. And so we didn't have too many elders or deacons or anything.

It was more like we would have someone stand up and share a message with us, maybe one of the men in the church, and then we would have somebody who would maybe bring a DVD of a teacher that they heard, that they liked, or we would watch the teachings of Bill Gothard, go through some of his seminars.

So it was more of a hodgepodge of all different teachings brought together. And like I said, no formal leadership. So there was a lack of accountability there. We weren't necessarily under a church banner.

We would have said we were non-denominational Bible-believing Christians, more of a Baptist background. And for some years, my family, we had attended First Baptist Church in our area. And that was, you know, it was just a very normal Baptist church setting.

But then once we moved on to the home church setting, I think that's where the teachings of Bill Gothard, I remember that being very foundational in my understanding of what the Word of God said. And often that's what we would listen to on Sundays as well.

And I'm assuming that.

The.

Church of your upbringing, this house church movement, was not a Reformed or Sovereign Grace-believing theological background.

Definitely not, yes. Definitely more, I think it was, you know, my parents had always an emphasis on the gospel, salvation not being by works. And that was something that I'm grateful for to this day.

They taught us that. And at the same time, because of the lack of depth in theology, we were easily led into the teachings of Bill Gothard. And so, yeah, it was more like free will type teaching, and that's kind of just what I grew up under.

Bill Gothard’s Seminars, Rules, and Fear-Based Christianity

Well, since you've mentioned Bill Gothard, which also has a lot to do with what you have written, tell our listeners about who Bill Gothard was and the primary emphasis of his ministry.

Yes, so Bill Gothard, he came on the scene, and it was kind of at the time where parents were kind of worried, really, for their kids' safety and also for just spiritually, they were concerned that their kids were going to get involved in what was happening at that time, sex, drugs, and rock and rolls in the 60s and 70s.

And they were really worried that, oh, no, if we don't get a hold of our kids, if we don't figure out how to get to their hearts, then they're going to be swept away. So Bill Gothard was a young man. He came on the scene, and he said, I've got the answer to all of life's problems.

You can come to my seminars, and I will teach you basically how you can keep your kids' hearts, and they will not fall away. So there were, at that time, I think a lot of churches got involved, and they started busing people to his seminars, which filled up massive stadiums all across the country.

And it seemed great on the outside, because some of these things were not necessarily bad in and of themselves. There were some principles that were true, and some of them that I would say were based in scripture.

But sadly, he started teaching things that were outside the Bible, or he would take a verse of the Bible twist it, and make it say whatever he wanted it to say, and then he would have you make a vow at the end of that time to bind your conscience to it.

So that's what happened with Bill Gothard, and he kind of blew up over that time, and a lot of people would have known the name of Bill Gothard, and had at least somebody who had maybe gone to a seminar in their circles, in the Christian world.

And from what I understand, your parents were even heavily involved in Bill Gothard's ministry before they were married, correct?

Correct, yes. And they attended a couple of seminars and things like that before they were married, and it was all that they pretty much knew for their married life. They taught us kids the principles that Bill Gothard would have given to them, and that was something that we all grew up with, we were born into.

And from what you've already said, obviously there were good motivations behind what Mr. Gothard was teaching, at least initially. In our current world, in the 21st century, the problem seems to be far more, amongst Christians and amongst churches, far more in the area of looseness, turning the gospel into a license to sin, turning the grace of God into licentiousness, easy believism, cheap grace.

That seems to be the the largest problem today, but that does not mean that there is not serious and harmful legalism that exists, obviously, especially in the world of the cults. But you do have genuine Bible-believing Christians, who may be very sound in their theology, who are seriously harming those under their authority with enslavement to legalism and so on.

And if you could, why don't you tell us some of the primary ways in which Bill Gothard's ministry in your biblically-trained opinion went off the rails. Obviously, we already said that not everything he taught was unbiblical or bad or harmful, and every parent should have a watchful eye over their children, seeking to guard them from exposure to unnecessary temptations and so forth.

Not that we are to keep them locked in the house 24 -7 or anything like that, but the parents are to guard their children and so on, and even adults are to guard themselves and their spouses and their own children from these types of lures and temptations and gateways to sin.

But tell us how, in your opinion, Bill Gothard went off the rails, and the primary ways that you believe his teachings were harmful, and especially to you personally?

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, Chris. I think that it was really based on—these principles were based on the external, and so Bill Gothard would say, okay, you know, don't—. You know, it was—okay, so it was based on like where you go to like purity, right?

Purity is important, and that matters. It's in scripture. It's talked about everywhere. Bill Gothard would think, okay, the word of God is not enough. I need to put a rule on this. So he would make you have commit to like a single service commitment, and he would say, okay, well, since you're young, or even if you're not young, and you could be a 30-year-old girl who walks into his office, and he would say, are you going to—do you want to serve the Lord?

And she might say yes, and then he could go into this whole thing about how she should make a single service commitment, maybe for five, ten years, and a lot this time to the Lord, which if you think about it, it's like.

That became so prevalent in that setting. Now, when you say single service, are you talking about like a specific ministry?

No, no, sir. So this is how it would—this is how he would lay it out. He would say, I think that, you know, for us to have undistracted devotion to the Lord, you can serve the Lord better if you don't have a boy on your mind.

So a lot of my grown friends who were of marrying age, some of them in their upper 20s, and some of them even in their 30s, would make single service commitments to serve the Lord for maybe—pick a number—maybe seven years, ten years, where I'm not going to get married for ten years.

Well, that in and of itself can create problems because it's an idea that he came up with to solve a purity issue that he saw was happening. The Word of God is not sufficient to keep us from sinning. It's not sufficient to keep us from giving in to the lust of our flesh.

So we need to add courtship rules where you're not allowed to, you know, hold hands before you're engaged or all of these things that become rules to prop you up, not realizing that, man, we've got to go back to the beginning.

We've got to go back to the start. What really matters is that our hearts have been transformed by the gospel, and that's how you're going to keep your young people pure and loving Jesus and walking with the Lord, is from the transformation that happens at the beginning in salvation.

And that will drive and motivate our hearts to love God, but we can't just put our kids in a box and say, do this, don't do that. And there's a certain time for that, like when your kids are young and they're at the house, you know, it's like, well, I understand we need to lay these rules.

It's not without that, but his whole ministry was primarily propped up with rules. And so whether that was authority, which was a huge one, which authority is important. It's in the word of God, but his idea of authority was that that children would be under their parents' authority all the way up through adulthood.

If you're in the home and you're a woman, you, you know, you cannot work outside the home. You cannot do anything outside the home. Otherwise, you're opening yourself up to Satan's attacks. Unless you're working for your father, then there's like a level of protection.

And so a lot of these things just, he would get carried away. And I think that we are now seeing the breakdown of that. Maybe, like I said at the beginning, a lot of people probably do not even understand who Bill Gothard is or what, what, why this matters.

But I think that a lot of these kids who were raised in it, we're seeing these generations of kids turning out and now they're realizing there are so many negative effects to this. It's not something where it's like, oh, this is just Bill Gothard's opinion.

We're all these years removed. It doesn't matter. But it affects our view of God because the way that we view God is okay, if I step outside of this box, God is waiting to smite me, which is what Bill Gothard would teach.

So if I don't, if I hold hands before I'm engaged, oh no, what is God going to do to me? If I don't read my Bible for five minutes every day, like I made this vow, Bill Gothard wouldn't make this vow to read and pray my, you know, to read my Bible for five minutes, to pray for five minutes every day.

If I don't, what is God going to do to me? It's, it's a fear-based mindset that is not based in scripture. And it's a man's opinion and he was very comfortable placing burdens on people that they couldn't carry.

And so what you're saying is basically you were living under the fear and living enslavement, an enslavement to fear that as if God was constantly hovering above you with a sledgehammer waiting to crush you because you disobeyed him in some way, in almost any way.

Exactly.

And ironically, even though that may appear on the surface to many as as someone who is teaching that, they really take sin seriously. But what they are failing to recognize is that they are really undermining the serious and prevalence of sin.

Because if that were the case, if God behaved that way with his children, we'd all be crushed with sledgehammers every minute of the day.

Exactly.

In much in the same way the Roman Catholic Church, at least it used to. Now it has become so liberal that it's barely recognizable from historic Roman Catholicism. But there was a time when the way that they would distinguish sins from another and so on had the same kind of effect on people.

So you discovering the doctrines of grace, did that come about through dating and then marrying Jeremy?

You know, it's interesting. Actually, that whole perspective for me started before Jeremy. Because my sister, one of my sisters had started a relationship with a guy who went to a church that was reformed.

And it was at that time, I was going and driving to visit this young man and his family and all at their church. And so sitting through those church services, I realized, wow, they really read the Bible differently and they handle it differently than I've ever seen.

And so realizing that God is sovereign over all, it was a huge shift in my mindset. And so when I started reading the Bible, I was like, whoa, how did I not see this? It's everywhere. And so that was kind of a shift that happened.

But the teachings of Bill Gothard were still there. So foundational in my life that it was not until Jeremy came on the scene that we started to discuss these things. And as soon as I saw that it wasn't all based in scripture, those external rules or traditions really fell off.

And I saw the word of God as.

Being.

So much greater than even this Bill Gothard's opinion. And it was a beautiful thing because I saw then for the first time really that the word of God, we don't need to come up with rules and all of this stuff to to keep us from sinning, but that the word of God is sufficient.

And I think that's something that I was missing for all those years. And I thought, OK, well, I'm terrified. That years ago, right?

And you're breaking up a little bit. I'm not sure what's happening, but.

Really wrestling through it. I was like, oh, no. Like, how am I going to raise my children? Because now what if like what if I raise my children and I'd because it's a guarantee for success if you follow Bill Gothard's principles.

But if you don't, he would always teach that your life was going to be one disaster after another. But it was amazing because once I saw that this was in scripture and that a lot of these teachings from Bill Gothard just weren't in scripture or they were twisted, it was so free.

And I was it actually started. Yeah, that we're not based in like an awe and reverence, but it was based in more of like that, like you said, the sledgehammer, the fear of the sledgehammer coming down.

And I want to quickly add that because of the fact that I brought up the the distinction between the Arminian and the reformed systems of theology, there are professedly reformed people, pastors and churches and denominations that are just as legalistic as what we've been hearing from the Bill Gothard seminars and other places.

So we're not trying to say that the reformed community is pristine and perfectly separate from that unfortunate behavior and theology, basically. Let me quick give our listeners our email address because you have to leave fairly soon.

Just to let our listeners know, Ginger has to leave after the first half hour of today's program. And we're going to be joined after that by her in-laws, Pastor Chuck and Diana Volo. But our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Ginger, just out of curiosity, did Bill Gothard teach that you could lose your salvation?

He never would have said that, but I think that the way that his principles kind of if you followed his principles to a tee, you could easily get there. And so I think that because of the the way that he taught that everything is relying on you, then I think that a lot of people in that setting would wrestle with assurance.

Even those who were genuine believers are sitting there wrestling with assurance because here it's not on God's sovereignty and salvation where God has you know, he has chosen you and he will keep you, he will preserve you.

All of those things were kind of they weren't just really taught. And so it was more on like, okay, here are all these rules and if you failed you just felt like, oh man, I've messed up big time. God is not pleased with me, even as his child, even as I think it's interesting how you can get so many years into this and not read through the psalms and the wrestlings that you hear the psalmist talking about.

And it's like, well, if you look at that, Bill Gothard would just totally...

You broke up there a little bit. Bill Gothard would just totally what? I'm sorry. And I hope we haven't lost Ginger. I'm not sure why I can't hear Ginger right now. Ginger, are you there? Ginger, can you hear me?

Okay. Well, sorry folks, I'm not sure why we cannot hear Ginger. There's some kind of technical difficulty going on. And I hope that our link is restored so that we can continue the discussion. And while I am waiting to hear from Ginger again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least. City and state and country of residence. And Ginger's gone. Well, Ginger, are you there? Yes, I'm back on. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you fine now.

Sorry for that.

You were right in the middle of talking about how, even though Bill Gothard did not believe you could lose your salvation,.

Go ahead.

Yeah, he would gloss over a lot of those things and just say like he would give you more rules. So if you were struggling with whatever it was, or if you were not measuring up, instead of saying that the grace of God covers our sin, that on the cross Christ paid for that, and that God viewing us as father was missing from his teaching.

So I think a lot of people had this view of like a domineering taskmaster that's just waiting for you to mess up. And I think that produced a sense of like, okay, well, I know I can't lose my salvation because he wouldn't say that, but he.

Almost.

Made it feel like that.

Yeah, you can you could be just as much enslaved to legalism and fear just by believing that God, as you have said, is going to kill you in a car accident if you fail in this way. He's going to give you cancer if you do this wrong.

That constant fear as if God is going to unleash a hitman against you for disobeying him. Exactly. And that is obviously not living with the joy and liberty and freedom of the grace of God. We do have a listener named Chad from Averill Park, New York, and he says, Tony Volo was the best man in my wedding 26 years ago.

That's Chuck's younger brother. I was wondering if Ginger and Jeremy have sat down with an open Bible to appeal to Ginger's parents about the errant teachings they've held to, and if so, what has been their response?

Hmm.

Thanks for that question. And that's that's an awesome connection there. Yeah, so I have had so many conversations with my family, loved ones, and I know that at the end of the day it's going to be, I think it's such a difficult thing for so many to leave the teachings of Bill Gothard because of how they view these things as scripture.

So like you said, with an open Bible, I think that a lot of people, even in my family, have maybe walked away from some of those teachings, and it's been very encouraging. And at the same time, there are so many that are still following them.

And so we just pray that even those who are genuine believers there, that they would be able to see what is true and what is not. And I think that's just where we leave it to the Lord and trust in His goodness and sovereignty even over that.

And how have your parents reacted to the book?

Yeah, we've had conversations. I think it's definitely been difficult for some just because of these teachings being so foundational and all in their lives. But others have been so appreciative of it.

And so it's kind of been a mix. It's really been a mix among my family members. And so I think that at the end of the day, I just wanted to be able to write this book to help those who are still stuck in these teachings.

Whether that means family members will come out of these teachings or not, I just wanted to be faithful to what God had put before me to do.

Well, I believe that if I'm not mistaken, you and Jeremy have a website where people can learn more about you and your lives and your ministry and your writing.

Yes, we do. So it is gingerandjeremy .com. And by the way, folks, she spells it with a J. J. J-I-N-G-E-R.

Gingerandjeremy .com.

And.

Well, I hope that we can have you back on Iron Sharp and Zion Radio in the near future and perhaps for a longer segment because this has really got me even more fascinated to and more intrigued to hear more about your story.

But by the way, I want to tell Chad in Averill Park, New York, thanks to our friends at Thomas Nelson. You've won a free copy of Becoming Free Indeed, My Story of Disentangling Faith from Fear by Ginger Duggar Volo.

So make sure we get your full mailing address in Averill Park, New York. And even though Ginger has to leave us, we still have more copies to give away to other listeners who send in questions when we have her in-laws, Pastor Chuck and Diana Volo on momentarily.

But Ginger, it has been a joy. Please send my regards to your husband. And I look forward to even sharing fellowship with you again face to face as we had the opportunity to do a number of years ago at the G3 conference.

Will do. Thank you so much, Chris. It's been wonderful talking to you.

You too. And don't go away, folks, because as I said, Pastor Chuck and Diana Volo are going to be joining us momentarily, the in-laws of Ginger Duggar Volo. And if you have a question for them, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com gives us the first name at least, city and state and country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

Sponsor Reads and Program Announcements

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Gospel of Grace Community Church, SWAN, and Legalism in Amish and Catholic Contexts

We are now joined by my friends Pastor Chuck and Diana Volo. Pastor Chuck Volo is the pastor of Gospel of Grace Community Church here in Pennsylvania, and Diana Volo, his wife, is the founder of SWAN, which stands for Scaling Walls A Note At A Time.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you both back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Chuck and Diana Volo.

Hello Chris, we're glad to be with you.

And Pastor Chuck, why don't you first of all tell our listeners something about Gospel of Grace Church, I'm sorry, Gospel of Grace Community Church here in Pennsylvania.

Yeah, well God has had opened up a door for me among the Amish about 18 years ago, and for those years I was ministering to Amish people. God was converting them, they were going off to various Anabaptist churches, and I really didn't have a church in that area to bring them to.

I was helping to start a church in Northern Maryland at the time as well, but about seven years ago a group of men approached me about starting a church there in Lancaster County, and I was glad to do that because I had labored there for all those years.

And so we began meeting, and I would bring in several friends to preach. I was only able to come maybe once a month at first, and they were getting a smorgasbord, a wonderful diet, but it was different every week with different men, gifted preachers, and they didn't want to constitute until a full-time preacher was willing to commit, which I was willing to do in the providence of God in early 2020.

And so we're coming up on our fourth year anniversary in February, and we constituted as Gospel of Grace Community Church there in Kinzers, which is a bit west of east of Lancaster City and west by a couple of miles of the town of Gap, Pennsylvania.

Well, if anybody wants more details on Gospel of Grace Community Church, go to gospelofgracecommunitychurch .com, gospelofgracecommunitychurch .com. That's Gospel of Grace Community Church in Kinzers, Pennsylvania, and you are a confessionally reformed Reformed Baptist Church, correct?

Correct. Yeah, we do subscribe basically to the 1689 London Baptist Confession, and we are thoroughly Reformed, Calvinistic in our doctrine. We have a wonderful cultural diversity in the church, which I really delight in, Chris, because anyone who knows Lancaster County knows that the churches tend to be very uniform.

Instead of unity, they often opt for uniformity, even in the way people dress. And so one of the doctrines I've preached in the community for quite a few years is the doctrine of liberty of conscience in areas where the Bible doesn't speak clearly.

And I'm glad that we have a church that is doctrinally unified in major things, but we have a good cultural diversity, including some former Amish, some former Mennonite, a former Hindu, and it's a wonderful blend of God's people under the banner of the cross.

Now, I'd like to have Diana, your lovely wife, who I recently interviewed again,.

Tell our listeners about SWAN. Oh, thanks for asking, Chris, and thanks for having me on your program. SWAN is a nonprofit organization, and it stands for Scaling Walls One Note at a Time, and we help children affected by parental incarceration and the resulting trauma and the ways that we help them is by teaching them music.

We give them very loving music teachers. We share the love of Christ with them through those music teachers, but we also share devotions and prayer, and we also provide some Bible classes. Additionally, we provide our students with mental health care, so they have immediate access to a mental health professional, and that professional also helps them with trauma management.