Praying with Paul Chapter 9

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Praying with Paul Chapter 10 Part 2

Praying with Paul Chapter 10 Part 2

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All right, live from Sacramento Yeah, I know it sounds
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But nothing like Saturday night We are gonna talk about chapter 9 a sovereign and personal
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God I will pray for us and then
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We'll get started Father we're grateful that you are
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Sovereign and personal and we're grateful that you work in all of our lives that you love us and you take care of us and that you've given us responsibilities and Father help us to be faithful with all of those things
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Father we pray that you would keep the church safe During the 4th of July holiday
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That people who are traveling would be protected and people are staying here would also be protected
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We thank you for all that you have given us We thank you for Jesus in his name.
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We pray amen All right So Chapter 9 chapter 9 was a theologically very very heavy so We will go over that and I think the reason why it's so heavy is when you consider the complex nature of God and How important prayer is?
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it's It's hard to just simply say a sentence as an answer, right?
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How many of you have seen? Something like Pamphlet or a sign that says prayer changes things
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Prayer changes things. Yeah Yeah, you might not own it, but it's pretty common.
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I Actually, I don't I didn't think I saw it until I've seen prayer works.
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I've seen prayer changes things. I think passing by like a local church
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Somewhere I don't remember whether it was here or in Southern, California But it's it was somewhere.
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I saw that and I was like, oh, yeah, so people do have that so prayer changes things and he
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He talks about that. What does that mean by prayer changes things, right? I'm gonna share some of the views that he goes over One view is to overemphasize our responsibility and Say that Things don't happen unless we pray so such that view would say that God is
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Incompetent. He's not quite sovereign Sovereign means a full authority, right?
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He has authority or He doesn't have all knowledge right it would have to be all either
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God is not sovereign or He's not all -knowing right that's that's that's the first view when people think that prayer changes things the first wrong view is
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He just either can't Rule or he doesn't know
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Right and that is a scary thought Right, what what could go wrong if you believe that Pray your prayer is so important that God is incompetent
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To rule by himself or he does not know what's gonna happen in the future
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Yeah, it's a form of idolatry, right What is it
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He's all -knowing, that's right on page 124 it says a second paragraph
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If God is not absolutely sovereign as in he's fully authoritative
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Goes this line of reasoning Maybe the reason he does not answer your prayers as you would like is that he can't right?
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That's that's that's that It's a it's it's a ridiculous view, but people hold that view
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Yeah That view That's right that view that God may not fully know all things.
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It's called open theism That's it's a heretical view right a view that God doesn't quite know is a radical view
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Second Ah The second is the other extreme which is that there's a phony
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God who fixed everything and your prayers are just meaningless Right. It doesn't matter what you what you pray doesn't matter.
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It's gonna happen how God intended it anyway It's all fixed right you get sick.
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Why bother praying? Whether you get well or not, it's fixed, right?
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That view is called Fatalism fatalism a lot of those people who are hyper
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Calvinist often hold some sort of fatalistic view in one way or another
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Right not not to put down Calvinist out there if you're watching But there are hyper
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Calvinist who believe that well God's fixed everything. So what's the point?
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Right of doing anything why get out of it, right that kind of mindset Number three, ah
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Prayer changes you So this idea goes like this. Okay, you pray for something, right?
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Maybe it's like I'm gonna pray that I get healthier. Okay, well, I keep praying
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Well, because I keep praying I remind myself to eat healthier exercise more. Oh, so in the end
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I Am being changed By the prayer that I'm praying because I'm putting in more effort
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Right. So that's the third view prayer changes you right and what's the problem with that?
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What would you say to that? Well, you have prayer prayer is so that you know You pray and then you start answering your own prayer.
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Yeah, it is. I it's I Idolatry of self right all of a sudden you get to be the answer to your own prayer, right you get to be
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God right, uh The other side of it is that you don't really pray for specific things but that uh
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You just pray generally your will be done Right.
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So again your will be done is a great prayer. It's in the Bible Jesus prays that too but It is not the only prayer, right?
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Yeah, it can be uh Yeah, I mean it's it's it's a confusing thing the the problem is the
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Last one and though this one your will be done It it kind of puts a lot of distance between you and God God becomes less personal, right?
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It's kind of like a good God can handle it. He'll he'll just take care of it Your will be done and that's that's your prayer meeting right for the church your will be done
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Right now your will be done again It's not a bad prayer, but it can't be the only prayer because the
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Bible has many other types of prayers Many other types of prayers that asks
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God to change the circumstances that they're in or even change his mind Right, they ask
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God relent your wrath against us relent from the judgment and you know
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And they're we're going to discuss that the second problem
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Of course is when we pray like that when we ask God to change a circumstance
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Well, how can God be? Unchangeable if if we can if we're able to ask
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God and in fact the Bible tells us we can ask God Please please change the circumstance, please change this event, right?
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That's That's an important question. We are going to answer right? Can God be trustworthy if he can change his mind, right?
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Yeah, right Right Maybe Now I want to ask all of us and including those of you who are online
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Which of the examples above do you fall into I shared four Just a reminder.
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The first one is an incompetent God who can't do it or who doesn't know it, right? So like our prayer kind of informs him
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Right, and then the second one is the other extreme God has fixed everything. So there's really no point of praying
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It's kind of like it's meaningless right the third one is
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The prayer changes you right it's like I pray and then I get motivated to change my lifestyle
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And then that's the answer to my prayer. And then the fourth one is just the general.
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Well, you know, you will be done Which of them which one of them do you most likely fall into or more often?
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It could be multiple or it could be none of them. Sure Okay Yeah Sure, sure
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That's right, uh, it could be none anyone else The third one yeah, yeah like uh, we kind of answer our own prayer
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Yeah Kind of like that Yeah Sure sort of like it yeah
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Gotcha Good for me, it's kind of like your will be done
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Sometimes like I I'm in a circumstance or someone else's right? I just don't know what
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God would want for that person so instead of Specifically asking
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I say God your will be done which It can be good in certain circumstances, but I think it's cutting short all the potential of Right God specifically answering a prayer.
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That's that might be urgent Right, right. So that's that's for me now
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Don Carson On page 125 actually says a really important Statement page 125 last paragraph second sentence
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Something has gone wrong in our reasoning if our reasoning leads us away from prayer
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Something is amiss in our theology if our theology becomes a disincentive to pray
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Right, isn't that something if you have a view of prayer and Because of that view of prayer or view of God you start to pray less
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Or you don't feel motivated to pray or you feel like prayers useless da
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Carson says Something's wrong with your reasoning.
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It's not God's fault. It's not that the aisle. It's not the Bible's fault Something is wrong with your thinking.
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Well, what do you think about that? Yeah Okay, what's the second the second reason of Yeah Right, right
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Right, right, right. So that's one of the four false views, right?
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So this is uh, this is the example, I think I gave for Hyper Calvinism.
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Oh There's actually history behind it Now I'm not gonna say all
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Calvinists believe this because you know, they don't right hyper Calvinists They're like even more and what they do is
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They don't even think missions like mission trips or like sending missionaries out to share the gospel with people who would otherwise not have the opportunity to hear the gospel
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They would actually Not support the idea they would say no because Exactly, right, right.
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It's Hyper Calvinism is a heresy Yeah, it's it's it's like it's wrong.
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It strictly goes against the Bible. Oh And that's the view that he's explaining here, right?
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It's like why bother right? Why bother if God's fixed it? You know, what's the point of obedience if God has
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Made it just all right. What's what's the point of me doing anything?
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That's hyper Calvin Yeah Right So yeah, our church does not believe in hyper
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Calvinism And and before we go on about God's sovereignty and human responsibility this this church is non -denominational
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Therefore we don't hold to Calvinism or even our minionism we don't strictly hold to that and I'm sure there are people on Either camp.
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I just I don't know Who is which? Frankly, it doesn't matter too much to me
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The the best I think the most important part is you have to agree that God is sovereign and then you have to agree that humans have to obey and they have to make choices and those choices they have to be they will be accountable for as Long as you hold to those two grounds, which?
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He goes over Abundant in the Bible. I'm Okay with that,
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I know churches some churches make that they're like a whole identity, right
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Reformed churches or like strictly Armenian churches. They they make it like we're not like those.
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We're not like those. Um, I Think I think there is a lot of harm done to churches if we're divided over that And and and if we overly focus on either one of them
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Calvinism or Arminianism or whatever Right there. There are other views We actually we're starting to Major in the minor where we're overly focusing on something
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At one point you have to say it is mysterious Right and all if that becomes the focus we lose the other major parts of Scripture, right?
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So because of that, I'm okay Having Calvinist here. If you're Calvinist, if you're not
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Calvinist, you're welcome to right? It's like that's that's fine right just but let's
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We need to hold to those two things that da Carson talks about and I think that's just important It's in the
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Bible Da Carson, by the way, I believe is a Calvinist, but you would not have think of that reading it
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Because he is so charitable and he he actually wants to see the whole
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Bible What the Bible says right? So I I really appreciate what he does right
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All right, God's sovereignty and human responsibility There are two perimeters that he shares
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That's found in page 126 The first part is God is absolutely sovereign
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But his sovereignty never functions in Scripture we do to reduce human responsibility
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Just because God has everything under control Doesn't mean what you do with your lives is meaningless
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Your obedience matters the choices you make matter The fact that you believe or not matters, right?
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this and and and The parts he quotes are like Proverbs 16 for right the
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Lord works out everything to its proper end even the wicked for a day of disaster right or Same chapter verse 9
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Proverbs 16 9 in their hearts humans plan their course, but the Lord establishes their steps so Yeah, people plan things but God is sovereignly in control now
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Jesus tells his disciples in Matthew 6 That God feeds all the birds if the birds are fed
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Well, God did God fed them if the flowers bloom will God did right?
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important Psalm 135 6 the Lord does whatever pleases him in the heavens and on the earth in the seas and all their depths
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Every part of the created world is under God's command
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Right. Amen, right? Oh Now important God does not do any evil
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This is very important. Nor is he the author of evil? Ah God does not cause you to sin
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Right. God does not sin yet His plans are never prevented by human evils
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For example when Hitler rose to power God didn't look down and say oh no. Oh, no, this isn't supposed to happen, right?
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Right. He didn't have he didn't have that moment, right? When Hitler killed six million
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Jews, God didn't say oh my no, no, no, no, no, no, right What about my promises right?
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What about the Old Testament? What about Romans 11? He didn't have that moment And Stalin too, right
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Stalin and Mao right I killed millions of people wicked wicked
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Really satanic people, right? I Know we'll get to that.
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Yeah But God is not directly the author of evil. He may right he does allow for secondary
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Secondary agents as in he allows Satan to rise power. He allows
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Hitler to rise power And he even uses them, right? right, but He is not guilty of whatever
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Satan or Hitler did or do Does that make sense? That's important Although God can use and even allow
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Satan and Hitler to do wicked things God himself is not guilty of those wicked things
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Exactly because That's right now So in all of these things human responsibility is not diminished just because God's sovereign doesn't mean
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Oh You don't have to do nothing. You know, you don't have to do anything just because God's sovereign doesn't mean you get to You know kill people
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Oh God's sovereign, right? It's just like it doesn't matter what I do with my life Right, that's that's not right.
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You still have to respond faithfully That's that's that's that's the first perimeter although God is absolutely sovereign
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Humans will be a copy are kept accountable and they they are
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Responsible to make choices that they need to make Second the second perimeter is this human beings are responsible creatures
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That is they choose they believe they disobey They respond and there is moral significance in their choices, however human responsibility
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Never functions in Scripture to diminish God's sovereignty or to make God absolutely contingent contingent here means dependent for example
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Let's say God wanted to Let's say
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God wanted to save Sally okay. Sally is walking down the street and I'm there
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But I I get shy. I don't want to talk to Sally but God's plan was that I talked to Sally, but I Being a you know a human who can make choices.
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I decide I don't want to Oh Right is that does that mean
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Sally is never saved because I decided to disobey God right
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D a Carson says no God is not dependent on others
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Although you're responsible you make choices you believe you disobey you respond and they're significant.
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They're important But God's rule is not diminished
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By us by our choices or disobedience, right? Sure, right, right and we'll go over that and I know this is a it's a theologically rich chapter
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Here are some examples Isaiah 30 18 Therefore the Lord waits to be gracious to you and therefore he exalts himself to show mercy to you
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For the Lord is a God of justice Blessed are all those who wait for him.
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What does that mean? It means God waits for his people to respond
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God waits for his people to respond right God waits for his people so that he can be gracious to them
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Oh, he doesn't force them at gunpoint as they come right now Right, that's not what it is
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Or it's not fixed all of a sudden that you have this like download in your brains like, oh, okay.
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I'm a believer That's not how it works, right? And I think as Cassandra mentioned earlier all the commands
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It's that exists in the Bible show us that all the commands for God's people to respond would be
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Useless if they don't have a choice in the matter Right, does that make sense? It wouldn't make sense to say you shall not kill.
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Well, what if they're programmed to just kill? Right. It doesn't make sense to repent and believe well
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What if they can't you know, you know what I mean? So that that idea the idea that The idea that human although they're responsible
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God's will Right still it is not diminished Yeah Right Exactly right a
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Mordecai had a very good view, right? Esther you are responsible because you didn't end up there.
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God put you there for a reason Yet don't think that God needs you Don't think that because you're not gonna do something
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You don't if you don't want to obey don't think that God's plan is all of a sudden thwarted.
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He'll choose someone else, right? Yeah, that's a great example. It's a good you have to have the balance, right?
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So, uh, I mean Romans 10 9, I think Diane has it memorized, right?
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Yeah Exactly It's it's it's there's a condition if you call out to God call out to God knowing who
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Jesus is Then Then you'll be saved right there's there's an action that's required to believe yet God sovereignty is not jeopardized
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Because I'll buy human responsibility They're not two opposing forces Right there.
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They're working together Here are some examples that's given.
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I'll go through only some of them because he gave many examples, right? Genesis 50 19 through 20 this one's about Joseph Remember Joseph.
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He was the favored son of Jacob and he had that very colorful robe and he kind of Flaunted around right?
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He kind of bragged about it and his brothers being a wicked sinners Thought it would be a good they debate, right?
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Let's kill him. No, let's sell him to slavery and you know, they decide to sell him to slavery So he ends up in Egypt and he goes through that's not the only trial, right?
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He's really faithful and he's successful and whenever he reached like a point of success like he gets brought down by some wicked person but ultimately by God's grace and Joseph's faithfulness he gets to be the second -in -command in Egypt and He is given revelation from God how to save not only
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Egypt, but the surrounding world From the famine that's about to come for seven years
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That's a beautiful story now his brothers after After his their dad dies and they realize oh right
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You know, our daddy is not protecting us anymore, right? Well, I mean,
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I think I think it's a total mischaracterization of Joseph because he's just only been faithful but right
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Yeah, they're kind of projecting themselves, right So what does Joseph do? What Joseph say this is page 128 the last paragraph of that section
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What Joseph says is that in one and the same event the brothers intended evil and God intended good
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God's sovereignty in the event Issuing in the plan to save millions of people from starvation during the famine years does not reduce the brothers evil
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Their evil plot does not make God contingent as in God is dependent on that but both
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God's sovereignty and human responsibility are assumed to be true beautiful story to see a tapestry of God's sovereignty yet human responsibility notice
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Joseph does not say Don't worry about it
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God meant it for good You're you're okay, you're innocent no, right
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Joseph actually says you meant it for evil You wicked you right? That's wickedness
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Right now and notice what Joseph doesn't say I think he says it here at those funny You look miserable sinners you hatched and executed this wicked plot
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And if it hadn't been for God coming in at the last moment, it would have gone far worse for me than it did
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Right. It's not as if it God is contingent on Next one is 2nd
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Samuel 24 one of the hardest Passages because this is where this is near the end of David's reign and in you know, as you know really after Bathsheba incident
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David's reign kind of just goes downhill. This is one of the worst because God is sovereign over David's life and what happens is
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David decides to take census and you know, that's that's that's a way of finding out how how big of a military force
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Do I have it's it's a way of trusting the military in 2nd
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Samuel 24 It says God incited David to do this and all of a sudden we're scratching our heads like wait, wait, wait a second
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How come God is inciting David to do it and David does it and then David's? Responsible Right.
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Why is he getting punished right? But first Chronicles passage actually says Satan did it
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So what is it saying the author of Samuel is showing ultimately
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God sovereign but first Chronicles first Chronicles 21 is showing that there is it is
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Satan who went against David, right? So ultimately who's responsible for that?
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Tempting it's Satan. It's not God, but God used Satan allowed Satan to do that, right?
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So what does? Right. What does that mean? It means there's it's it's a more complex picture, right although God is ultimately sovereign
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Satan and David being Secondary agents are responsible for the sins they commit
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Does that make sense? Oh Cuz imagine the opposite the opposite is scarier
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What if God has no control over what Satan does? Yikes right.
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Oh, I mean revelation wouldn't be written Right. It's it's kind of like how do we know the
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Antichrist will fall? We're gonna just God God said so right God has decided that But again, right
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God uses secondary agents and he does not sit Same thing with Isaiah 10 5 through 19.
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I'll speed through God will use a Syria to punish God's people and Assyrians are not
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God's people. They are pagans. In fact, they're so brutal They don't win wars and battles by sheer numbers they win by sheer terror
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They're so brutal by our Old Testament professor said If there's a town and they don't surrender
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They will just destroy the town, right? Not only that they will take no prisoners.
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They will Pierce They would pierce of every man outside the town them with a large pole that with a pointed end from one end to the other and they would just station these people so that any surrounding town would see and Would take now if you don't surrender to the
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Assyrians This is what will happen and by that sheer terror people would just surrender Right, that's a serious.
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So these aren't the type of people right and then Isaiah 10 says God's going to punish
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God's people for their disobedience using a Syria Whoa, right
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Now after a Syria violently destroys Israel, right What will
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God do to his Syria? Exactly.
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God will punish a Syria too. And then and people they're scratching their heads Exactly. They're scratching their heads like wait a second.
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God used the Syria. Why would God punish a Syria? Well, because yeah, they're prideful. They're willful pride
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They're still they're still responsible for what what they've done right
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Page 130 says they may be tools in God's hands, but that does not absolve them of responsibility right
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The Babylon to write God used Babylon For sure
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Right, right And Then same thing
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John 6 37 through 40 God saves his people and his people will not lose their salvation right
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Equally true is the fact that his people will have to look to the Sun and believe
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No one is born saved Right. No one's born saved They have to look to Jesus and believe right
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Which means they're not robots who are just programmed to be saved Philippians 2 12 through 13.
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I'm on page 131 Second paragraph of that section
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Paul's not tell his readers to work out their own salvation since God has done his bid and now it is all up to them
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Still less does he tell them that God does everything so that all they need to do is become supremely passive You know the phrase let go and let
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God Or some equivalent slogan, right? Rather he tells them to work out their own salvation precisely because it is
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God working in them Both at the level of their will and at the level of their actions
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To will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose It's not just one or the other right so a lot of these so -called
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Christians Who say I prayed that prayer and they just live like pagans, right?
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There's a lot of questioning to do there for that person That's nowhere to be found in Scripture that kind of saved life
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Yeah, I'm hesitant of books that Get popular, right?
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Yeah But again, some books get popular for good reason. So Ultimately the cross the cross is a good interlocking mixture of both
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God's sovereignty and human responsibility And this comes from Acts 4 Where Where Peter is preaching
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And he's talking about he's he quotes Psalm 2, right? Why do the nations rage and the people's plot in vain, right?
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The kings of the earth set themselves and the rulers take counsel against the Lord and against his anointed
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Ultimately that's fulfilled in Christ when Pontius Pilate. That's the Roman governor Herod This so -called king who's not quite fully
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Jewish yet, you know reigns over Judea And other Jewish religious leaders like the chief priests, right and the
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Pharisees they all Banned together. Remember they're not even great friends, but they all band together when it comes to opposing
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Jesus so What happens with the cross? What's what's what happens after the cross?
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He arose and what does that mean for the world? Then we're saved we can be saved through Jesus it's tremendously good news, right?
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It's the best news that Because of the cross we can all be we can be saved whoever believe, right?
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So at one point you might think oh, then, you know Pontius Pilate Herod the religious leaders like They're okay, right?
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They're okay, right? If they come to Jesus but but no, right, they're not okay
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Exactly. That was not their motivation. That's not what they did. They killed an innocent man They they killed the son of god, right?
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They killed god the son so If they didn't come to jesus, they're going to have to face god and they will be responsible yet at another level god wasn't uh, god wasn't like, uh
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What is that? flummoxed or Face palm, right?
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You know, it's like oh, right He didn't do that up in heaven when his son was crucified, right?
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It's like oh no. Oh, no Why did why is pontius pilate doing that? No, that's not the conversation that went on in heaven, right?
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Right So Again, there's it's both god is fully sovereign and men are responsible
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Now there there is a mystery in how these two things work together It's a mystery humans are not forced to make choices that they don't want, right?
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God doesn't make you reject or receive him at gunpoint. I like to say that Yeah, god is not caught off guard or powerless over any choices people make
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That's also important and there is a mystery behind it and I can't tell you Uh how they both work together all the time.
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Oh Yeah, I know it's Yeah, but in the end he had the authority to let jesus go but didn't
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Right, although he he looked I mean, he's a man pleaser, right? Is he doesn't he doesn't want to anger the jews, but he doesn't want to you know
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He doesn't want to do what's wrong so Not doing the right decision is still wrong um
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So there's a mystery in it So I I I personally don't say
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I have the right answer as to how they all work together. There are many different uh
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Views regarding how to make it all work together. There are calvinists. There's arminian.
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There's uh Molinus Uh, and it's like somewhere in the middle.
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Yeah. Yeah. Uh, there's like their whole books written about this uh
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There there's a traditionalist uh There's five point calvinist four point calvinist and then three point calvin and at that point
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It's like if you're three point calvinist, are you even a calvinist? Right? It's just there It's just so varied right to to try to answer this mystery in one way or another
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Yeah, I in in the end I I just truly say like it's it's a mystery like I can't
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I I I like to think of it as like a bowling alleys, uh rails you know if you can't bowl well you put rails so that they don't all the balls don't go down the gutter, right
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One is god is fully sovereign. The other is humans are all responsible Uh god doesn't cause them to sin, right?
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They're gonna have to answer for that So it's like if it gets to god is sovereign god is sovereign your choices don't matter then, you know
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The ball hits back and say no you're responsible. You're still responsible and the ball hits back
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Where when it becomes oh i'm so responsible that if I don't pray god's plans are thwarted and then let's go back and forth, right?
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That's where I hold Right. It's hard Now, how does god work with?
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With evil people and evil spirits, right? What about good and evil this is important Uh, this is what we call theodicy.
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Theodicy is a fancy word for um Justifying god. I know it's it doesn't sound good
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But it's it's when there's suffering and evil in the world You do have to answer like well, how does this work because god is fully good and fully in control
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The first thing we need to avoid is that god does not stand in any sense behind evil
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So god does not stand in any sense behind evil. So god is not the author of evil
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This means there is another force. Uh, So, uh, so god does not stand in any sense behind evil means these people believe that there there's another force outside of god's sovereignty who do evil and god is
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Uh powerless to counteract it, right? So, uh as in uh, it's it's called dualism two powers think of star wars
43:47
All these movies they come up. You wonder like well if the jedi is so good. How come they uh,
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They lose here and then they win here they lose right like why is it constant battle? Uh, it's buddhism.
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It's star wars is very much influenced by buddhism this idea eastern mysticism
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Where there's good force and bad force and there's a balance Right again, the bible's not that right
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The problem it means that god is not all powerful Right, there's no hope for the good god to win
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Well, no the problem with that view The problem with that view that there's good god and there's a bad force and they're constantly fighting
44:32
Yeah, yeah that view is wrong Yeah Right, that's the that's what's wrong with the view
44:39
Second god stands behind good and evil exactly the same way. This comes from page 136
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Uh page 136 Um One two third paragraph
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The last no not last sentence third sentence But if god stands behind good and evil in exactly the same way that is if he stands behind them symmetrically
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He is entirely amoral Amoral means uh, there's no morality here
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Uh, it doesn't mean immoral. It means uh, More morals, right?
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Uh He may be powerful, but he is not good Right good is the language of morality
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So what it's saying is if if he works through evil and good at the same in the same way well
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He's not good You mean you you can keep all powerful god, but he's not good
45:44
I guess he's not bad either, but that's kind of troubling In the end, how can we be sure that the the good wins?
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We don't know Right totally depends on that amoral god Biblically, this is the biblical view.
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This is the right view. Okay page 136. I know it's confusing Page 136
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Uh, in other words, this is the very next paragraph, uh middle of the paragraph in other words
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He stands behind good and evil Asymmetrically, uh, he stands behind good in such a way that good can ultimately be credited to him
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He stands behind evil in such a way that evil is inevitably credited to Secondary agents.
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So we talked about this wicked people wicked spirits satan Those are the secondary agents and all their malignant effects
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They cannot escape His sway in exactly the same way that satan has no power over joe without god's sanction
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Yet god remains mysteriously distant from the evil itself Uh, uh,
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I think diane mentioned job earlier. That's a great book to read In one level satan is satan is directly responsible for all the evil that happened to joe, right?
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but ultimately God is in control Right Right the fact that satan has to ask permission from god
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Uh, I think has uh, that's got to be more reassuring right Satan can do can't do anything with you that god a doesn't know about but b god does not permit
47:41
And of course, we we wouldn't really know what satan is doing to us directly either You know just we don't you know why because we don't get to see that view we don't get to see that uh conversation
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Oh Job didn't know and nor does god tell joe right when god shows up Who darkens knowledge right who darkens counsel?
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No, who darkens? The mind I think without Oh with counsel without knowledge
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Right just and then he starts talking about all the nature like itty bitty things like little ravens getting fed to like giant leviathan and then
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God's like do you do you do any of that? Like do you know when the goats give birth?
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Like do you know how long they're pregnant for? right and then The the answer is joe doesn't
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And and and the other answer is there's someone who does And it's god and and you think what's happening in your life.
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You you can handle the answer, you know, it's it's that interaction uh
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Job is a powerful book, right? In the end satan lost that bed
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Right in the end satan lost So even through evil god brought out good
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Which is that job remained faithful? Job did not curse god And from the book of job, it shows that humans can have
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A loving relationship with god humans can have a relationship not based upon good things you get
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But you can stay faithful even if all the good things are gone it shows that hope right that's the book of job
49:37
All right So our two propositions concerning god's sovereignty and human responsibility
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Are directly tied to who god is? If god is only sovereign we are fatalists.
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Those are the hyper calvinists, right? We're not we're not even calvinists here, right but hyper calvinists.
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They're they're even just they're heretical Like there's no reason to get out of bed Right obedience loses all meaning
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Right, it's like what's the point if god set everything down why why work why why be faithful why evangelize why pray
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Uh now if god is only personal and no more Uh, then god is no longer god.
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He has no power Right. He is just like us He doesn't know everything.
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He can't do everything right He's That's right. So he is both transcendent and personal transcendent means like beyond Beyond us like beyond our understanding
50:37
So holy so set apart. There's no one like him. That's transcendent Beyond our concepts.
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Yeah So he's transcendent. So you might think oh no, like what's the point?
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He's not gonna care but he's personal He's loving He's tender He's caring
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He is involved right He's his existence is eternal
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And he does not need us. He does not depend on us and he's beyond time and space And he sovereignly rules every atom that exists in the whole world
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Yet he is personal He is not an unknowable force.
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That's star wars He is a personal father That's I mean the fact that he reveals himself as the father is uh, it's a personal title, right?
51:31
It's a loving title He speaks to his creation Right. He gives commands
51:40
He has relationships with his people all throughout history He comes down to earth
51:48
He becomes a man right that's that's This is a personal god
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This god dined with his friends this god washed his friends feet in service
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That's a personal god And then he died for us and he personally lives in all of us right the holy spirit lives in us
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Now this is mysterious as to how how both are possible And I like uh,
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I like what he says in page 138 138 uh first paragraph last last sentence
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Sometimes it is more important to worship such a god than to understand him Sometimes we just really try to figure it out, right?
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There are a lot of logical people at our church, right? And you know engineers, right?
52:42
uh people who fix things And they they they they are great at understanding problems, right?
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Um And in in our case with god right
52:59
Sometimes it is more important to worship such a god than to understand him Right.
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It's important to worship We we will never understand god fully
53:12
Now Not on this side Yeah, no Or even even in heaven and in heaven like god is still so transcendent too, right?
53:22
We'll know more on this side. I mean on the other side but even then it's like the whole triune god like You know
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That's still beyond me Uh that and that will be beyond me Um, and when
53:38
I die so conclusion Conclusion What do we do?
53:44
So what right? This is what he says 138 Basically the third paragraph 138
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We must do our best to ensure that these complementary truths function
53:58
In our lives in the same way as they function in the lives of believers described in scripture
54:03
We cannot go one way or the other We we must not try to we must keep ourselves from Going hyper calvinistic way or the fatalistic way and we must keep ourselves from going.
54:17
Um Man -centered way right? Oh, we're important. My prayer really mattered to god, right?
54:24
If if it weren't for my prayer, you know, it wouldn't have happened, you know that kind of idea now
54:32
How does god sovereignty function in passages of scripture where prayer is introduced
54:38
Again, he reminds us on page 139 second paragraph Certainly, it never functions as a disincentive to pray it can forbid certain kinds of preposterous praying
54:50
And you know like babbling like pagans, but what's important is If your view of how god interacts with the world and if your view of god uh
55:02
Tells you not to pray Then you have the wrong view of god That is not from scripture
55:08
Right, and i'm glad he uh, he mentions that again Now, let's talk about relenting because some places in the bible
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God relents But it's not the same way that you and I relent or regret You and I relent and regret from the position of fallible ignorant human beings
55:32
We don't know all things. We can't know all things. We don't know the future That's us. We're fallible creatures, right?
55:39
We're ignorant creatures and ignorance is not a bad thing That's who we are. We're not god
55:45
That's right. We're not transcendent. We're meant to be ignorant, right? We're not god now there's this part where The israelites they start worshiping, uh, the golden calf and god actually tells moses
56:05
I'm going to destroy them and then moses intercedes
56:10
And moses intercession is based upon the promise that god made to his ancestors abraham isaac and jacob and the patriarchs
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Now This is important some people say oh god's just like us so he changes his mind
56:26
That's not so because if he changed his His mind, he would have destroyed the israelites at that moment
56:33
He didn't change his mind and through moses intercession
56:39
It shows that god is not only personal but he's also suffering right so Uh page 141 if god
56:50
Had not relented in his declared purpose to destroy the children of israel then paradoxically
56:56
Paradoxically, he would have proved fickle with respect to the firm promises He gave to abraham isaac and jacob on the other hand
57:04
If god is to remain faithful to the promise made to the patriarchs then as moses realizes god cannot destroy the israelites
57:13
And he must therefore turn from the judgment he has pronounced against israel It is that very point moses is banking on as he prays
57:22
So this is what prayer This is what it means that prayer changes things god sovereignly had moses there
57:35
Who interceded at that moment for the israelites? So that god's sovereign plan of faithfulness toward israel would continue
57:47
That's that's the picture. It's not that god has orchestrated a puppet show. It's like, okay
57:53
Let me get the puppet moses here and then you know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and then it's like no I'm not going to destroy israel rather right moses was fully responsible for that prayer
58:04
And god used that To accomplish his sovereign will and again, it's a mystery like wait a second.
58:11
How is that? It's a mystery, right? We are fully responsible yet.
58:17
God is fully sovereign at no point. Does god ever say I made a mistake?
58:23
At no point was his plan ever jeopardized right Don't want to say that Yeah Moses is going at god's honor, right that intercession the argument goes
58:44
Your honor is at stake god if you don't bring them out, right? And his honor is unchangeable
58:53
This is a good summary page 142 second paragraph The extraordinary importance of these passages must not be missed
59:01
God expects to be pleaded with he expects godly believers to intercede with him
59:08
Your prayers do matter Not in a sense that god's plan will be thwarted.
59:14
Otherwise, but he expects his people to plead with him Their intercession is his own appointed means
59:22
Instruments for bringing about his relenting and if they fail in this respect Then he does not relent and his wrath is poured out.
59:36
That's important and another pair of page 143 first paragraph
59:42
But the faithful will insist that properly handled both god's sovereignty and his in his personhood
59:49
Become reasons for more prayer not reasons for abandoning prayer It is worth praying to a sovereign god because he is free
59:58
And can take action as he wills it is worth praying to a personal god because he hears
01:00:05
Responds and acts on behalf of his people not according to the blind blind rigidities of inexorable fate
01:00:14
What that means is god is not uh Fixed right as if I can't interact with you because you're not in my appointment schedule yet Your prayer or lack thereof
01:00:35
Jeopardizes god's plan But god expects us to be pleaded with and god uses godly people who pray that's why prayer changes things right
01:00:46
Any questions or comments before we close? Good it's a hard theological chapter
01:00:56
I appreciate don carson Although he's a calvinist doesn't shove it down your throat
01:01:03
You wouldn't even know it right Uh, and that's that's just called beautiful.
01:01:09
Uh, and uh, very professional Exegeting of the bible.
01:01:16
He's not letting calvinism read the bible. He's letting the scripture speak for itself right
01:01:24
All right, let's pray Uh, and then we'll get home and hopefully your ac is working
01:01:31
Father we're grateful that you are good We're grateful that our prayers do matter not in a sense that we get to change your plan
01:01:39
But that we get to be part of your plan through our prayer and help us to intercede for our church
01:01:46
Help us to intercede for those who are not saved Help us to intercede for our city help us to intercede for our nation and even the world
01:01:56
Knowing that our prayers You use our prayers to Fulfill your will
01:02:03
Thank you that we get to be part of your plan in jesus name amen All right.