They Are Changing the NT! Plus a Lot on CN

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:06

Well, I guess we're on the air. I don't know. I don't hear nothing That's not the way to start but Because I was hearing music before when things were we're going we were testing things

00:22

But Rich says don't know why it did that. Well, I don't either but hi

00:29

I'm not sure things gonna go too well today. Anyways, yes as you can tell Rich Pierce is not here.

00:36

He is Remotely Sort of controlling things, but obviously not very well so I realized all the legions of Rich Pierce cam fans are tuning out right now because there's

00:50

There's well, the camera is still there. I had to turn it off and If you turn stuff in there now the light turns on he's got his own light and his own camera and stuff.

01:00

It's yeah, I it's it's I'm not sure what the end result for this is all gonna be but notice what you just did to me now

01:08

It left me sitting here going I was sitting here. I look at the clock and I but also

01:14

I look up the screen and there I am Like well, all right The professionals are back at it here at the good old radio ranch.

01:24

So anyway We have a lot to get to today much to discuss and I Want to start off before we get to all the

01:35

I don't know if you're watching this in Twitter right now But various other people are volunteering.

01:43

How did this even start? Chocolate Knox, I guess invited

01:49

Owen Strand to come to Moscow and be on cross -politic to discuss

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Christian nationalism and Chocolate Knox said if you would

02:03

Accept EXCEPT Chocolate Knox that's what he did is he accepted he did what you asked him to do.

02:11

He took exception It's ACCEPT is how you ask someone to accept something

02:19

Just one of those old grammar Nazi spelling not that word Nazi things That sometimes gets in the way but Owen Strand said no and You know,

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I would have said hey if they're offering you a free trip Go for it

02:37

Enjoy your time there. You really would you'd be treated. Well, I pretty much know which restaurant you'd be taken to There's a couple a downtown they're the primary places that people meet you'd be you'd have a great time and I would have probably whispered in your ear invite

02:56

Doug to taco time just the two of you to talk That would have been good but Anyway, that has now led to just this whole thing going on over the past 24 hours and Now Joe Rigney's thrown his name in there and David Bonson has said, you know, okay,

03:18

I'll do it too and You've got the very fact that you have all these different takes and flavors and Opinions and stuff.

03:29

I think it's really important But it also illustrates

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I think just how fractured everything is and My whole perspective from the start has been

03:46

The only way that there can ever be anything even approaching what people are talking about somewhat as Christian nationalism is when that fracturing is

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Either over a long period of time Defractured by meaningful conversation

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Or by just the work of the Spirit of God and that till then a

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Lot of what we're arguing about just doesn't really matter Or at least if we're going to have discussions they need to be exceptionally calm

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And very much focused on a future That you know not the idea of Quote -unquote muscular

04:40

Christianity taking over next week, you know real long -range stuff but anyway

04:48

That's what I've been saying from the start and so I've got a bunch of stuff here to look at there But before we get into all of that Before I get into all that I wanted to Respond to something that's a little bit more sort of the bailiwick of this particular program and And I think that's probably a good thing and that is

05:16

I tweeted this morning. Oh, no, the sky is falling and I was responding to Jeffrey T riddle who

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I have debated on this subject and There's still good reason to do many more debates in the future to be honest with you if they want to keep

05:36

Making the claims they're making He quoted he tweet quoted re -quoted whatever terminology you're using ex -quoted

05:49

Is he Drew moused and It says in his needle lecture at BT conference 2023

06:00

Edgar a boho is Forewarning Bible translation practitioners of 200 plus changes to Matthew Mark Acts and Revelation coming the next edition of the

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Greek New Testament in 2024 to 2025 now let's

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Get some information out there that we've gotten out before But it seems especially on this particular topic people can get really forgetful or get confused about stuff

06:33

This is one of many volumes of the

06:39

Additional critical mayor This is The multi multi multi volume work that is

06:52

Underway has been underway for a long time coming out of Munster Deutsche Bibel Gesellschaft publisher here and This is a

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Project that is intended to provide the largest amount of information

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Ever presented To the world as far as Collations of manuscripts and identification of manuscripts and and again, let's let's remind ourselves of some simple facts

07:32

When The textus receptus that this is by the way, that is one of I is it three or four volumes?

07:38

I was gonna look this is the major volume For mark, that's just mark and one of multiple volumes for mark.

07:46

Okay, so compare that with the

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Inspired standard according to dr. Riddle and many others the

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Texas receptus, okay 1633 let's there's there's variances and differences is really

08:09

Scrivener. So it's actually a 19th century work, but The Texas receptus published by a

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Trinitarian Bible Society, this is the ultimate standard Every argument that they will make is based on this

08:23

So whatever this says is the final word doesn't matter what the manuscripts say It doesn't matter what internal evidence says it nothing matters.

08:31

This is it this this determines everything else this They are just as committed to this as the final authority as Peter Ruckman was the

08:37

King James King James The King James corrects the Greek in the Hebrew TR corrects any manuscripts.

08:45

It's it's the final word A Matter matter what they do.

08:51

That's that's what it ends up at. Okay, so this comes from a dozen maybe it at most if you want to throw in everything that anybody did with Beza and stuff like that, you know two dozen manuscripts and It has no critical apparatus.

09:10

Why should it if it's final authority? Why should have a critical apparatus? Why would you need that? So that's

09:19

TR this is ECM Mark is done axe is done.

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The General Epistles is done Evidently what this is saying is

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That Matthew and Revelation are

09:39

Going to be done soon Now what I don't understand about this I I traveled to Munster in January of 2019 and I spoke with one of the leading

09:54

Lights, he was retiring. He's not involved with it now directly, I guess but one of the leading people there at the

10:02

Institute in Munster and I was told at that time that Mark was done and that did come out and That John was being done outside of their purview directly in Birmingham and That they were on track to be fully published by 2030 and Obviously kovat then hit the next year and Evidently just threw everything up in the air as far as when stuff is going to be published.

10:40

I Don't know what's taking John so long. I think The publication of John will probably push the

10:49

ECM and the key Textual methodology that's being applied

10:57

To the ECM which of course you long -term listeners know it's called CBGM coherence -based genealogical methodology and That's going to push that out into a little bit more of a public public knowledge.

11:13

I thought mark might do that, but it really didn't because It didn't really impact much of anything there was really

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About the only text that Was of major interest

11:30

Was mark 1 -1 and ECM has the longer reading The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ Son of God that phrase the

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Son of God So that was interesting that was definitely one that I was interested in seeing

11:45

What the result of the application of CBGM? The CBGM databases and analysis would be

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But it wasn't big enough to really cause anything There are some textual variants in John that might finally push it out there and certainly when the

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Pauline epistles You know Romans 5 1 would be one that immediately pops to mind for example

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But in John, you know, you've got John 1 18 pretty important text and But the reality is the

12:21

CBGM analysis has already been done Has pretty much confirmed where the current

12:28

Greek New Testament, that's the island 28th edition Has been all along Where there are changes and they say 200 plus changes

12:40

So dr. Riddle types 200 plus changes coming to Matthew Mark Luke and Acts Which is different than what the quoted text says

12:49

But anyway in the next critical edition of the Greek New Testament and five exclamation points See you have five exclamation, but that's that when you get to five exclamation points, especially when you're a

12:59

Calvinist that is the perfection of exclamation points and So Uh Everyone's like Oh changes.

13:09

Oh and it's like I've heard this for so many years. It's what the King James only guys do

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It's it there is so little difference between TR only ism and King James only ism. That's not even funny, especially in the methodology and It's like changes.

13:24

Oh, we're changing the Bible Once you use once you use language like that, you're no longer dealing with scholarship.

13:31

You're dealing with rhetoric. You really are In The first volume of each one of these right toward the front is a chart that is provided to you

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That that gives you all of the differences Between the

13:52

ECM and the Nessie Olin now 28th edition so earlier would have been 27th edition and There they are there's one page there's that that's for mark and Then the next couple pages are where you have now what is called a split guiding line

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There's only one page one and a half pages. Well, it'd be two and a half pages and include both sides

14:16

Where there's now a split guideline Which what that means is what they've done in the ECM and all this is available online you know, these are very very expensive we have to get them for obvious reasons, but You don't looks good on the shelf

14:31

Very hard to carry around it's all online if you go look at the

14:39

ECM Online you will see that the way they've done things is is when they have a reading that is

14:49

It's split There is Just as much evidence for one way of reading it as the other way of reading it then they'll give you both they will split the line and They'll give you both readings one above the other rather than just having to make a decision relegating everything else to the apparatus at the bottom of the page now

15:14

That's how it's been done for a long long time But those of you who for example have taken

15:19

Greek and you took you used for example I guess

15:24

I'll need to put that there for the moment. You used the UBS text You you're used to the the notes down at the bottom of the page

15:37

Not many notes This is for translators And so they only put the major variants in here in comparison in SCL and 28th edition has many more notes but less information of cited for each one, but to do it this way, you know what they're trying to do is preserve the text as just single line and Then if you want to know what's down if you want to know what the variants are

16:01

They're noted down at the bottom of the page That is cleaner You know if you're trying to like read from this or translate from this or something like that definitely cleaner

16:12

Than having a split line type situation But by doing the split line thing, they're basically saying it's a 50 -50 in the

16:22

UBS. They would have a Rating, you know

16:27

B C D as to How strong the committee felt one particular reading was over another?

16:35

But again, all the information was provided to you if you want the information It's right there in front of you and as Erasmus himself the originator of the

16:45

TR Who would have laughed hysterically at TR only as I can assure you?

16:53

He in fact he wouldn't have laughed well, I think after laughing hysterically he then would have gotten very angry and Probably rather acerbic to be honest with you as to what has been done with with his work and the people who have attempted to Invest it with some kind of inspiration or something

17:14

Anyway So the ECM is gonna have a different look to it But they're also trying to avoid

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Being like the final arbiters. They're trying to give as much information as possible. And that's what a lot of people don't like It's weird.

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They want someone to be the final arbiter. They just want a TR. They want something without textual footnotes and The other major religious world group in the world that wants the exact same thing or the more of the

17:42

Muslims They don't want a critical edition of the Quran even though one needs to be

17:48

Presented and one needs to be and can be published if Manuscripts could be gathered and you could travel around the

17:55

Middle East by getting killed for doing such a thing But that's that's how the Muslims want it.

18:01

Just listen to my debate with Adnan Rashid on that subject from London a number of years ago That's exactly what the

18:08

Muslims want they want a final edition With no textual notes just like the

18:14

TR only folks with the TR. That's it's the exact same mindset There is no difference between it at all So they look at something like this as what a massive waste of paper and it is a lot of paper

18:31

Or what a massive waste of computing space to put it all on Online so anybody can have access to that huge amount of information, but obviously it's a great thing.

18:42

It's a great blessing. It's Those of us who do serious apologetics with world religions and in defense of the

18:50

New Testament know how Vitally important this is and how what a blessing it is. Oh my goodness You have to recognize that when

18:56

Erasmus was doing what he's doing. He didn't know which manuscripts were which there was no There was no cataloging system.

19:03

There was no designation system that was consistent I've told you the rather funny story that in the 1550

19:12

Stephanos down there That we've shown you many times before there is a manuscript that's cited.

19:18

There's a very small critical text in this in the Stephanos There's a manuscript that's cited as the beta text

19:25

B in our language and when Beza Was working on his 1598

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Greek New Testament. He had Stephanos. He was not aware of what that B text was

19:38

He had been given what we now know today as the living Bible of the ancient church

19:44

Codex Bezae Canterburgiensis Codex D. We call it and He knew it was very strange had a lot of strange readings in it

19:52

But when he'd look at Stephanos lo and behold here was this manuscript B beta That had same readings and so that Would influence how he would look at things.

20:02

Well, it was actually same manuscript. He just didn't know it He didn't know Stephanos had access to it and then it had been given to him He didn't know where to come from and that influenced things and That's how things were up until the last century when someone finally said, you know

20:16

We should assign a particular designation to each manuscript. We need to know where it is what it contains

20:22

And we need to start collating these things and so initially microfilm was used But man, that's actually impossible to read and so many manuscripts and now

20:31

CSNTM has done such great work In digitizing so many of these manuscripts because a lot of them are fading you can you can demonstrate that there are pictures of of certain papyri manuscripts and stuff that you know 70 years ago looked a whole lot clearer than they do today because they're fading there they're in use again and The ink is fading them.

20:54

They're old. That's it happens with old stuff anyway So we're in a situation today where we know so much more

21:05

About which manuscripts are which and the collations those manuscripts there there were there were great

21:12

Protestant Theologians who made statements about certain texts of scripture.

21:17

They're just simply completely wrong not because They didn't do their homework, but they could not have known otherwise

21:25

That we now know the truth about how many manuscripts read one way or the other way or things like that They just simply did not have that information at that time

21:35

So it is a good thing. It is a proper thing. It is a blessing to have this information available to us it increases our

21:46

Confidence in possessing the original text simply simply grabbing hold of a text and going this is it

21:55

And I will answer every objection to this by simply saying this is it is

22:01

No different than the Mormon who grabs the Book of Mormon says the same thing It's it's a it's a tight little teeny tiny circle that says this is it.

22:09

This is it. Don't ask me anything and We've demonstrated. This is what TR onlyism is go listen to the debates with Jeffrey Riddle listen to the arguments he uses for long writing a mark which has a great deal of ancient testimony behind it and Then listen to his arguments for Ephesians 3 9 which has no ancient testimony behind it at all they should

22:30

If you're gonna be consistent, you should apply the same standards to both texts. He cannot do so because this is his final authority

22:37

It's what this reads. That's it. That's it. That's indefensible in debate.

22:44

That's indefensible and apologetics That's just a fact Having this kind of information now we can for example

22:52

Instead of the way it was when I was younger we would have to quote a particular Greek scholar who would say well, it seems we have about a 98 and a half percent

23:05

Agreement amongst the manuscripts and the vast majority and it's all based on just guesses

23:11

We don't have to guess anymore You've got the databases right there once the

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CBGM database comes up for mark you can specifically identify Exactly the the amount of coherence between manuscripts

23:28

With exactitude that's great to have It's irrelevant if you're a

23:34

TR only person everything past 1633 is irrelevant It doesn't matter what manuscripts appear.

23:40

It doesn't matter the papyri None of that stuff has any meaning whatsoever.

23:45

It cannot change the reading of the TR. It's impossible If it supports the

23:51

TR, it's irrelevant. If it doesn't support the TR, it's irrelevant so when you hear the you know the hair on fire and 200 plus changes.

24:06

Oh I'm more interested in evidently

24:12

Drew Maust Has some inside information as to what's going on with CBGM and ECM and That means

24:20

Nessie Allen 29th is coming out. Did you hear that Jeffrey Rice? Yeah, I've got a

24:26

I've got a project for Jeffrey Rice we all know what he did with my na 28 large print and how that was

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Helped launch things for post -ten of us Lux Bible rebinding So when

24:41

Nessie Allen 29 comes out Jeffrey, let's see if you can beat what you did With with the 28th edition, that would be that would be pretty cool

24:49

Let's see how your skills have increased over the past number of years And we'll see what what you can come up with for that.

24:57

But according to Drew anyways the It's Matthew and Revelation are

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Going to be coming out next and soon enough for the

25:13

Nessie Allen 29th to reflect that now what's fascinating about that is

25:18

I Can't it's not that much in Matthew that I think is going to do anything, but you gotta understand some so mark an axe already out but revelation

25:30

Wow, I mean we've we've had an exhaust pretty much an exhaustive collation of the manuscripts relation because there just aren't that many of them of all the books of New Testament revelation has the fewest surviving manuscripts of this day and so That had already been done a long time ago obviously some things have been found since then so there could be some addition as far as the information goes, but Revelation is the most

26:02

Textual variant filled book in the New Testament. There's no question about it There is no one

26:08

Byzantine text of Revelation if you've ever tried studying textual variants in Revelation The what's would be called the majority or Byzantine text splits all over the place

26:24

So it's gonna be fascinating to see if the CBGM analysis of They should have

26:32

I would imagine That the CBGM Version of Revelation should include every

26:41

Greek manuscript Known of the Book of Revelation. It should it should be completely exhaustive now this does not include other languages, so I Would assume the next step after ECM is finished would be to expand the seat because you can you can

27:02

Do CBGM analysis on the basis of other languages so You know exactly what languages will be used would it be

27:11

Latin would it be? Coptic Boheric Saharic What you know, what what early translations would be brought into?

27:23

that particular Context I don't know. I don't know but there are a lot of Variants of Revelation, it's going to be very interesting and one thing that is absolutely

27:36

Inevitable is That a CBGM analysis of Revelation will demonstrate all of the places where Erasmus just face -planted and Hence the the

27:54

CBGM Version of Revelation will be the most unlike the

28:01

TR Because it will expose the many many many many many many many many places

28:08

That Erasmus messed up and we've explained this before He didn't have a Greek manuscript to work with he had to extract the

28:16

Greek text from a Latin commentary That would cause all sorts of problems in of itself. You only had one manuscript.

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You don't want to just have one manuscript and Parts that manuscript are missing and There were transcription errors made in it and he didn't care because he did not have much respect for the

28:35

Book of Revelation at all it just didn't really matter to him and then the the immediate question it popped into my mind years and years and years ago was

28:48

Okay, that explains the first edition, but he had five he had years to fix it Why didn't he ever fix the

28:55

Book of Revelation, why do we have these why do you have those last six verses in Revelation chapter 22?

29:01

They're still in the TR. Were he back translated from Latin into Greek? Why?

29:07

And then I found out why he for the second edition. He told the printer go get the Align Brothers printing of the

29:14

Greek New Testament, which had come out since his and Use their Book of Revelation Not knowing

29:21

They had used his They had used Erasmus' Revelation. They had just as much trouble getting manuscripts as anybody else did

29:28

So it just never got fixed and it became here's a good example from the textual world where Something becomes a tradition

29:40

Inevitably and mistakenly and Then you get folks like the

29:48

TR only guys Who will enshrine that tradition with religious significance and authority and hence it can't be touched

29:58

And so there you go Every week we're getting this. There's a lot of folks that haven't caught on.

30:05

We are not on YouTube live any longer Denver brother, we've been on you.

30:11

We've been on we've been on Twitter as the live feed for a long time now.

30:17

It's been how long has it been? It's been at least Three months four months.

30:22

I forget maybe longer So, yeah

30:28

Rich is responding right now Ever sat there since early

30:33

July. Okay ever just sat there staring at the I wonder This is a modern a modern problem.

30:40

We all sit there looking at those little dots Did you do did you do it?

30:46

because Someone's typing. Oh, what are they gonna say? These are not moments that start

30:52

Charles Spurgeon ever ever had to waste Or anybody else prior to just a few years ago, actually

31:02

What on the what Followed by rich demonstrating

31:09

Either that his cat just attacked his keyboard because that looks how my that looks like how my cat types

31:16

Or rich being a former charismatic has gone back to its old ways because I I could not possibly translate anything that just Came came there, but I'm gonna guess we both have kittens right now

31:31

His is much much much bigger than mine much older than mine. My know Dini only turned four months yesterday.

31:38

So He's not nearly as big as riches, but that looks like a

31:44

Cowboy attack yes, yeah cowboy attacked the keyboard and Sent a message to me in Cat, which

31:52

I honestly would like to be able to speak but have not learned that as yet. Anyway, so If you see, you know people with their hair on fire going they're changing the new times have been again.

32:06

I could go through Again, they're right here. I could go through and And give you the changes

32:16

They're listed Frank anybody who wants to know they're online to they're online, too and so We know that the one meaningful variant that was addressed is in mark 1 1 and The Son of God Son of God had been in brackets in the na -28 and now it's not in brackets anymore.

32:44

That's that's it So in verse 4, there's an article

32:52

There's there's there was an article in Brackets in the na -28 and it's it's no longer anywhere in the

33:01

ECM In chapter 2 verse 12, there's two synonyms for before Yeah In chapter 4 verse 15 amongst them or unto them in verse 16 likewise

33:25

Okay verse 31 how to spell it's either cock on our taco in 623 the na -28 had had many in brackets.

33:41

It's now gone. There's no many there So yeah, these are huge huge.

33:47

I mean just deep theological significance each one of these Vast majority of you you if you can't read

33:53

Greek, you wouldn't even know wouldn't even notice it. I didn't notice it Like in 1132 the people versus the crowd

34:04

There's another article There there's a post -positive day in 1614.

34:10

I'm not too worried about 1609 following up to that If you hear people trying to make it sound like you know, we can just do what we want with the text of scripture

34:22

They're misleading you badly badly. So let's let's not go there. All right shifting gears shifting gears

34:33

Boy how do I get to all this let's start with Douglas Wilson's 11 tweet presentation of Christian nationalism.

34:45

Okay, I Think it's important you know the

34:53

Q &A panel for Wednesday of g3 Will eventually be on YouTube It's on the g3 app right now.

35:03

I think I could be wrong. I Don't know because that was the pre -conference.

35:09

I'm not really sure who's in charge of all that but anyway, we did a Pre -conference gbts did prior to g3 and We had a panel at the end which

35:25

I was a little nervous about because I knew it was sort of gonna be me versus everybody else and It was it went well someone made a funny meme where they basically said that I had

35:39

Twice the amount of time all the rest of people gathered together when they made it I thought they had actually timed it out.

35:44

I found out later that they hadn't it was just a joke When it when it is available,

35:50

I may actually time it out myself or ask somebody else to do it just to see

35:58

How much more I talked than anyone else did but anyway, it was done respectfully and in such a way as to try to edify the audience

36:10

There there are clearly different perspectives being expressed there But without flaming arrows and all the rest no no anathemas or anything like that going on and so at the beginning of the

36:32

Conversation Owen Strand identified me as a Christian nationalist. I said, whoa, wait a minute. Hey, man

36:40

I don't use that terminology of myself. So I'm not I'm not gonna defend everything is out there under the name of Christian nationalist at the same time, obviously there are all sorts of Things that were all

36:58

Agreeing on That I don't think we would have agreed on in 2018 So the post -millennialist in me is going.

37:07

Hey, I'm going the right direction. Anyways, I Don't think we would have agreed on a lot of this stuff.

37:14

I think there is a significantly greater recognition of the reality of the myth of neutrality

37:22

That we've all lived with the myth of neutrality in the past There's a significantly greatly increased recognition that a secular view of man

37:34

Cannot ground any kind of meaningfully consistent law And we'd say because we live in God's world and If you don't live according to God's ways in God's world

37:49

You're gonna have a mess on your hands And so a lot of the you know,

37:56

I Believe firmly there will be no there can be no human flourishing within secularism

38:06

That and I've said from the beginning if all you mean by Christian nationalism is blessed as a nation whose

38:12

God is Yahweh and Sin is a rebuke or reproach upon any people and you have to be able to know what sin is

38:21

Then that would make me a Christian nationalist, but obviously People are going way way way way way way way beyond that and Up to this point.

38:33

I have basically directed people to The sweater vest dialogues that I did with Doug Wilson both on the

38:43

Stephen Wolfe book and My concerns there, which I have far more concerns now than I did then now that I've seen some of the fleshing out

38:53

Especially from Stephen Wolfe's perspective who went after me last week on the masculinity stuff

39:01

And Then the second one we did on Doug's book mere

39:07

Christendom and in both those programs I Expressed concerns about sacralism now, of course

39:15

Stephen Wolfe just mocks that but that just means he's off talking to himself in the corner of Sacralism is a is a reality for all

39:24

Baptists we we have far too long a martyrology in history to ignore the danger of sacralism and what

39:34

I pointed out is that a Creating a structure that produces nominalism nominal

39:47

Christianity Producing a structure where Christianity becomes a framework into which you put everybody whether they're regenerate or not

39:59

Is What Doug would call Christendom 1 .1 1 .0 and he's talking about Christendom 2 .0

40:06

well the only way you can have Christendom 2 .0 and I thought Doug and I pretty much agreed on this and I think if we talked about it, he would agree about this

40:14

And what I've said in both of those sweater vest dialogues is the only way it's gonna happen is after and as the result of and this may be where we might differ, but my thinking is

40:27

After and as the result of this major work of the Spirit of God that many of us see promised in Scripture where the nations seek after Yahweh's Torah his law the coastlands which was meant outside of Israel come seeking the truth of God that the knowledge of God fills the the world as the as the oceans cover the cover the cover the seas and this kind of stuff that's that there's stuff that has to happen first and It's not happening right now not in any global sense and So the idea of you know, well, we're all just going to take over next week is really rather silly and Having That kind of Collective unity that comes from true regeneration is what would be necessary to avoid the evils and the

41:32

Christ denigration that was a part of Christendom 1 .0 and So People will say well, but wouldn't it be better to have?

41:42

nominal Christian law Rather than drag Queen's story hour. Well, there's no question that Secularism is utterly self -defeating and utterly destructive

41:57

It is Anti -christian to its core It is a denial of everything that Jesus said was good and right and honest and true and just Everything he came to do everything he was based upon secularism is the polar opposite of that it's the denial of The supernatural nature of the world around us.

42:18

So it's easy to say well anything's gonna be better than that but the problem with saying anything's better than that is

42:29

What about when you literally have Christian people

42:37

Inventing a system that calls itself Christian, but no longer has the gospel as its motivating and creative factor

42:46

Because once you for example create the office of Christian Prince, that's a word that's been coming up phrase

42:53

From my perspective if you call somebody

42:59

Christian Prince, the first word is Christian who happens to be a prince What you have in sacralism is an office of Prince of Christian Prince and It doesn't matter what your spiritual state is you can be in that office if you have the proper if you're elected to it if you're you inherit it, you know, whatever and That led to everything that we saw

43:25

That led to the scandal of Reformation that does anyone remember Luther Rome 1510 and he would do their church history anymore 1510

43:35

Luther Walks to Rome literally. Can you imagine that walk? He was among us what

43:43

I had to do Walks to Rome takes a long time goes on pilgrimage and While he's there he sees the

43:54

Pope Riding through the streets of Rome in armor on a horse.

44:00

He just walked to Rome and There's the Pope on a horse he could have gotten

44:05

Rome a lot faster on a horse I can assure you in armor the head of a of the papal armies and he sees the nominalism the surface level nature of the spirituality of the vast majority of people in Rome and He's scandalized by it as well.

44:25

He should be It was an affront to the gospel of Christ So, I'm not real big in the well, it's better to have that then know what we got now

44:36

No, I don't think we need either one. I Think both should be rejected

44:43

It's not a it's a it's a false binary to say well, it's your own only these the only choice you got from my perspective from a and again, you're getting all these different viewpoints out there

44:58

But the perspective that I expressed in those dialogues Which I thought we had agreement on Is that this can only work?

45:11

After a major work of the Spirit of God now most all millennialists and premillennialists of very stripes will

45:21

Say, oh, yes Christ will do all these things Christ will banish all his enemies and Christ will reign and so on so forth but he'll only do it after everything has fallen apart and then he comes back and in this massive display of power just Wipes everybody out, you know

45:42

Armageddon blood up to the bridles the horses I'm not sure what horses are doing there, but blood up to the bridles the horses and It's just sort of boom and it's done up till then

45:53

We lose down here. That's one view Or All of those promises in scripture are fulfilled only spiritually there's there's no

46:07

Corresponding reality in the sense of the kingdom of Christ Expanding across the world and Hey, if that's the way it is

46:19

Fine and dandy. I Christian when

46:25

I was a premillennialist, I don't turn that into a dogmatic standard We are discovering that eschatology is important as to how you're gonna look at the future and what your plans are gonna be for the future and Whether you're gonna build for the future

46:42

But it's it's it's not the dogma that defines the faith though, there are some people that are making it that way But that's the only form of quote -unquote

46:50

Christian nationalism that I could ever embrace And it's very much a future reality that has to be built for You build now just as the

47:02

Puritans did hundreds of years ago, and they didn't see it come to come to fruition They weren't talking about taking over next year

47:11

They were looking long -term down the road Build for it work for it pray for it

47:20

Um So there's gonna have to be you know, the Spirit of God is what gives patience and There's gonna have to be a lot of that Which I don't see right now at all amongst almost anybody so There's my position

47:43

Doug Wilson all human societies are moral agents Okay, moral agency requires an ethical standard by which to measure and evaluate the actions of that moral agent

47:56

All ethical standards are based on authority those authorities being the gods of their respective ethical systems

48:05

The God the system will either be the true and living God or an idolatrous construct or an idolatrous construct of some sort so This is where a lot of people

48:18

Get unhappy With the strength of that assertion and That's because if you've lived most of your life with the idea that The Constitution was sort of a middle ground

48:41

That didn't really have a god of the system Then you're not gonna want this kind of binary, but the fact was there was a god of that system and The entire foundation, you know

48:59

How many times we quoted it? but John Adams said what many of the other founders said constitutions for religious and moral people and that religious wasn't just new age woo -woo ism

49:11

That had a specific meaning for them which included the revelation of God's truth in Jesus Christ revelation of his law

49:18

The goodness of the Mosaic Code things like that So when a society undertakes an action as a moral agent and the question by what standard is posed is a question that must be answered it cannot be dodged and We're asking those questions now.

49:39

I Stand you know what a man is by what standard, you know, what a baby is we can't answer the most basic questions of life

49:48

Any longer because we're embarrassed about the foundation. We once stood on that. We have now rejected and anathematized.

49:54

There's no question about that Secularism must be considered as one of the sneakiest offenders among all idolatrous constructs

50:03

If any idol tries to dodge the question it is sure to be secularism Well, see I I use much stronger terminology

50:11

To describe something as sneaky You know, my kitten is sneaky.

50:16

He gets into stuff that how'd he get there? I don't know But he's cute Secularism will never acute

50:24

Secularism is anti -christian and satanic at its core Secularism is the pretense of neutrality in civic garb and is simply the idol of man's self deification pretending to be invisible agreed thousand percent

50:41

Christians are required to keep themselves from idols, which would mean keeping yourself from secularism

50:48

Christians must therefore desire that the moral choices of the society to which they belong Be grounded in the will of the true

50:55

God and not in the will of idols so there are many many many many many Christians in the world today that live in societies to do anything, but that and God calls

51:07

Many portions of the church to endure that kind of idolatrous

51:14

Cultural context that does not lead to human flourishing And we should be dare not complain when

51:22

God puts us in that place In order to reject Christian nationalism a

51:27

Christian must reject one of the above which one will it be? Otherwise, welcome to Christian nationalism. Well At the same time

51:38

I am sure and he has said I'll get said that there are aspects of Stephen Wolfe's formulation that he doesn't agree with So this is a very big tent

51:51

Christian nationalism and I'm not sure how useful that is.

51:56

I mean, I've got the biggest tent Christian nationalism Less is the nation whose God is Yahweh sin is reproach to any people

52:03

Okay Everybody agrees to that That doesn't necessarily end up defining anything does it?

52:12

Um Someone named Prairie grass responded to Doug and said the founders disagreed with you

52:17

They saw the harms religious differences caused in Europe wars and persecutions. They wanted different for this country

52:23

That's why they specifically said they wanted separation of church and state well, that's not what they said because Doug responded they actually said no established church at the federal level, which

52:33

I support and Separating church and state is a lot easier than separating morality and state

52:40

So, yeah Prairie grass's statement there isn't historically accurate at all and Wasn't really functional and the whole idea of separation of church and state was keeping the state

52:54

From interfering the church not the other way around the the idea was never that the state was to Produce a

53:04

Nadler Um Someone who says God has nothing to do with the deliberations this house representatives or anything else they all believed that God had everything to do with the deliberations of the house and that The reality is that they would be judged by the standards of God to reveal

53:27

They recognize that Um So immediately there's a whole lot of pushback and stuff like that as you would expect

53:36

But just some of my thoughts about What Doug said now? Owen Strand through the hand grenade that got all this started and there's been lots of hand grenades thrown back and I am in responding to this responding to my boss at GVTS, but I can do that Because we're doing it

54:04

Well, one of the one of the tweets that Owen posted Said provide there's biblical grounding

54:11

Christians can disagree in good faith about Christian nationalism post -millennialism and political theology

54:16

We can have unity and disagreement, but that does not stop us from thinking deeply exchanging views and standing for our position.

54:23

Well, okay, I Think that's what needs to be going on But and right now

54:38

Quote -unquote social media electronic conversation is how we're talking to one other

54:46

There are a lot of limitations to that but it also opens up vistas of input that we didn't have before right the printing press started all and And Look back for example on the publications that flew from Luther's pen between 1517 and say 1521 booklet after booklet after booklet that was the ancient equivalent of social media

55:23

But obviously only certain people had access to having a voice You had to earn your access

55:30

One of the problems of social media is that people who have not proven anything in their lives they've

55:38

They've not They would never qualify for leadership in the church

55:47

Because the list of qualifications is based on how have you lived your life? What have you done?

55:52

What have you accomplished and Social media just allows anybody with a keyboard to have equal access and The result is this utter mishmash and at times you you read stuff from people and it's just so obvious They they wouldn't know how to think logically if their life depended on it.

56:10

You wonder how they function in the world There's a lot of that out there and that creates all this background noise

56:15

And it just makes it a lot of people just throw up their hands and say forget it There's just this is such a mess and I understand that so you have to take the good and the bad and Some people decide there's more bad than there is good.

56:29

So this walk away from it all I get it But from my perspective it is the iron sharpening iron it's the

56:41

Long term dialogue and discussion Where people who have proven themselves over time?

56:48

I've seen a lot of What was that I saw? Recently Some of these younger guys going well, you know, you still have to respect your elders, even though they're boomers, you know, this sort of a condescending

57:06

You know, they messed up the world for us, but you still have to show them some type of respect. It was somewhere in Twitter and I'm most

57:18

Not all but most of the most immature stuff I've seen have been coming from People who've never pastored a church

57:26

For more than a year or two Don't have any

57:34

Long -term ministry to draw from to be able to create wisdom from And any movement where that is the the prime mover there is

57:47

Gonna be in trouble Probably not gonna be long for this world Um The kind of discussion needs to be being had is not only intergenerational, but it may last for many generations

58:01

At least that's my perspective I understand there's forms of Christian nationalism that doesn't care, you know, there's you know

58:06

Stephen Wolfe is not a post -millennialist not a theonomist. So you have This other perspective out there, which

58:13

I Have no interest in holding to promoting defending in any way shape or form. I reject it at least sacralism.

58:20

Don't want it worn against it And that that's what my voice will be saying in those in those contexts

58:29

So Owen Posted these tweets. He said there is no

58:35

Christian Prince in Scripture There is no New Testament mandate to theonomize the nations.

58:40

I'm not sure what that means. I Can guess there is no replacement of suffering

58:46

Christianity with martial Christianity Excuse me. The nation's will not become

58:52

Christian in this age. There is no call to Christians today to undo the curse now that was the hand grenade and I've seen it described in numerous different ways

59:07

None of them flattering to be honest with him Then there was a follow -up that said bad news

59:12

There is no Christian Prince coming to save you for the Bible gives you no such. Hope this is as imaginary as the

59:19

Tooth Fairy Amazing news G is the warrior Savior is coming back at the appointed hour and he will route

59:26

Satan crush all his enemies and reign in glory Well, yeah, nobody is

59:32

Arguing either point from my perspective Even the

59:39

Sacralist producing Christian nationalist The only the only people you've got

59:46

Even those people are not trying to say that the Christian Prince is in the place of Jesus I Have seen those people out there and they are scary very scary

01:00:00

But they're already the picture of nominalism, but the scary people out there. They're looking for some kind of a

01:00:09

Dictator like Christian leader and Yeah, that's that hopefully everybody can get together and go wow, that's really stupid can we

01:00:21

Call those folks repentance And everyone agrees with the amazing news part

01:00:28

Okay, Jesus the warrior Savior is coming back to point our we've got Revelation 19 20, you know, we've got skillet singing white horse

01:00:36

That John wrote for me and Joe boot and it's all about the conquering

01:00:43

Savior Great. The differences are how that's gonna happen.

01:00:48

Is that is up to that point? it's just a Down into degradation is the because in a way you

01:01:03

Everybody has their problem problem versus okay. Everybody has stuff that doesn't seem to fit real well

01:01:11

So the picture of the kingdom of God spreading like leaven Have you ever seen leaven working in bread?

01:01:21

I mean all the ladies now, you know, my wife my daughter are Sourdough Queens, okay, my wife she likes to make

01:01:34

Some with some seasoning in it Some she puts this butter. So I think she uses that stuff from back in the 80s.

01:01:40

I can't believe it was that butter No, no the butter sprinkle stuff, whatever that stuff was butter bits. I don't

01:01:45

I can't remember anyways She puts some of that stuff in there and then straight up sourdough. That's the stuff that I want to eat and You know it she experimented experiment experiment got a whole notebook of all the different stuff she's done and Now it's just she just whips them out and it's a lot less work for her

01:02:04

She's simplified it and it's great and she provides it to all sorts of folks her mom and family members stuff like that but Anyone does baking knows?

01:02:17

that you don't you don't put leaven in and Then it sits there for 2 ,000 years and all sudden explodes all over the place

01:02:28

It doesn't seem to be the analogy of Jesus is using in the kingdom that the that growth seems to be a continuous thing

01:02:38

Whereas a lot of eschatologies have it Down to nothing then boom because of the second coming

01:02:49

So it everybody has Issues with certain pictures and to trying to figure out

01:02:57

Exactly what that was meant to refer to is it a specific time frame You know you got all the stuff with what to do with Matthew chapter 24, which honestly

01:03:06

I think Has been fairly clearly explained, but there's still a lot of folks that do some wild and crazy stuff with math chapter 24

01:03:18

But no one's disagreeing with the idea that Christ will route

01:03:24

Satan crush all his enemies reign in glory the issue is is That reigning in glory relevant to today

01:03:34

When when first Corinthians 15 says that he is reigning now and the last enemy to put under his feet is death

01:03:44

How does that fit with the sudden Eschatological Everything is falling apart

01:03:53

We're at the lowest point and then boom Christ returns scenario Which I had always held to as well until I was forced to deal with the continuing reign of Christ now

01:04:10

Especially if Daniel 7 is the continuation of what we have in Acts 1 with the

01:04:18

Ascension if Daniel 7 is the installation of the King before the

01:04:24

Ancient of Days after the accomplishment of Redemption And again, that's what made me go okay

01:04:34

Let's start up here with this big stuff and go downward rather than down here and try to go upward

01:04:40

That was what was important for me So No one's really arguing

01:04:47

I think either side either side here at least not amongst Orthodox The idea of a some type of Eschatological Christian Prince or something along those lines.

01:05:00

I've not not run into I have run into the weirdos that want the You know

01:05:05

Mussolini type or Tito type or whatever somebody just sort of take over and stuff.

01:05:12

I'm like, oh, okay I'm But let me let me just run through briefly

01:05:19

Franco, you know, thank you The the points in the previous tweet there is no

01:05:25

Christian Prince in Scripture if we what we mean by that is what we had under Sacralism 1 .0

01:05:32

Christendom 1 .0 where you had an Office of Christian Prince.

01:05:38

I mean if you were to be a prince in a state You would have a Christian coronation and your spiritual state was irrelevant because your spiritual state could be assumed under the sacramental system of Rome obviously,

01:05:55

I reject all of that the The theology that would have to underlie it is

01:06:07

To be rejected I think by any Protestant or foreign person however

01:06:13

We have clear evidence, for example that people in Caesars household were being converted to Christ and We have names in the

01:06:21

New Testament and some of them seemed to be magistrates So if we don't use the term

01:06:27

Prince but a Christian magistrate If a person is truly converted who is a magistrate?

01:06:33

Should that not impact how they rule and you see I think there might be some people would say no

01:06:42

That they have to rule in light of whatever Idolatrous or pagan

01:06:49

Standards have already been set up for that office But I but I would say every judge of the earth will be judged based upon what

01:06:57

God has revealed is Just and right and true so There Would of necessity be in the post -millennial understanding a period where once the majority of people in a culture are

01:07:17

Christians, you're going to have Christian princes in the sense of magistrates who are truly converted and will rule and reign and legislate as Truly converted people in light of God's law, which is a blessing to a people big -time

01:07:34

What we saw in sacralism Once Theodosius declares the

01:07:40

Roman Empire to be a Christian Empire since that was not produced by a

01:07:50

Massive outpouring of gospel preaching But unfortunately by that time a degrading sacramentalism

01:08:00

You now ended up producing The sacral positions of Christian Prince which then led to all of the horrific things that were done in the name of Christ That had no connection to biblical mandates biblical law were violations of biblical law right left and center

01:08:20

So there's the danger of an office of Christian Prince from a sacralistic perspective There is no

01:08:27

New Testament mandate to theonomize the nations I would assume The was being referred to there is

01:08:36

To Well, I would imagine it has something to do with forcing

01:08:47

Christian law and people that don't want Christian law I Think that again if you believe that Isaiah 42

01:09:02

And passages similar to that about you know, the knowledge of the Lord the nation seeking after the

01:09:08

Torah of Yahweh That those have a fulfillment outside of merely a spiritual fulfillment

01:09:19

Then when you again have a massive work of the

01:09:25

Spirit of God and And Magistrates and entire nations not as nations, but large proportion of individuals within a nation are

01:09:37

Converted to Christ. What are they gonna look to for their law? Marx Hegel Anybody else

01:09:45

John Locke something? No What does Jeremiah 31 say?

01:09:51

What's what's the nature of the New Covenant? I will write my law upon their hearts Well, what law is that? so When you ask the question by what standard the only answer we can give is

01:10:04

The standard that has been given to us and it is a measure and I'm not saying this of Owen I'm saying this of evangelicalism as a whole it is a

01:10:15

Comment on where we are in the world today that not only is there such ignorance of God's law

01:10:22

But there's really a distrust of it I'm so thankful That years ago

01:10:29

I happened to look it up today. I was directing someone to it. I Did those 38 sermons on the

01:10:37

Holiness Code and we didn't just stick with the whole the specific Holiness Code in Leviticus.

01:10:43

We went into Deuteronomy and some other places and really tried to find every hard hard text to to deal with it, but I'm So glad that that I did that Because it disabused me of some of my own history and the the common thinking

01:11:07

That just you you pick up in evangelical churches Have you ever read that stuff in the law about you know?

01:11:15

Fabrics and you know stoning people and wool. Yeah, there's there's just it's like there's no

01:11:20

Interest in it whatsoever as if that really wasn't the Bible of the early church and That wasn't what

01:11:26

Jesus was talking about when he said if anyone teaches you to break the least these commandments They'll be least in the kingdom So I would agree there is no

01:11:37

New Testament mandate in the sense of a command but it is the natural outworking of The Promises of the nation's seeking

01:11:52

You know if the nations are going to seek the Torah of Yahweh. What else would that be if?

01:12:00

You direct them to what's the goodness of God's law as a revelation of his holy nature

01:12:07

What what else would that even look like? There is no replacement of suffering

01:12:14

Christianity with martial Christianity. Well I'm Not sure that the

01:12:21

You know, what is martial Christianity? Well, I'm seeing some of that. I'm seeing this this muscular

01:12:26

Christianity this Militaristic perspective and that's again

01:12:35

Crusades. Hello. Nothing new there Of Sacralism 1 .0

01:12:43

Pulled that one off big time long long time ago and you You could argue that it's sort of had its first manifestation with With Constantine, I'm not sure if there really was enough foundation there yet, but I mean, it's probably certainly a step in that direction

01:13:06

Suffering Christianity is Is Central to the formation of you know, we're sufferers

01:13:14

Christ suffered Recognition of pilgrim status all the rest that kind of stuff the the question is is not really between suffering

01:13:23

Christianity and martial Christianity, but what the nature of the suffering is so in other words, even if Let's say if 75 % of a nation

01:13:32

Became truly converted and again Calvinist cannot just simply dismiss as a possibility.

01:13:39

Well, God's never done that before Wasn't that the objection to the Messiah ship of Jesus?

01:13:45

God's never taken on flesh before so he can't do it now. I hold on Calvinists especially

01:13:54

Have to go. Hey if God wants to convert The vast majority of people in the nation he can

01:14:01

Charlie well do it whenever he jolly well wants to I Mean, that's our theology so What would be the nature of suffering

01:14:16

If a Nation was filled with Christians would Christians still suffer.

01:14:21

Yeah, of course not the not in the way that Uh That lots suffered in Sodom Gamorrah with the constant

01:14:33

Evil around them but there's still a lot of ways of suffering because no one's saying that just because a

01:14:40

Nation becomes filled with Christians that there's not gonna be any more cancer there's not gonna be any more infant death or miscarriages and That we will not be

01:14:50

Still called to do battle with our sin, even though there will be lots of people around us that will help us with that So the question would be suffering for what and is external suffering as in persecution the same thing as all the suffering that is involved in sanctification so when during Spurgeon's Day You didn't suffer for being a

01:15:19

Christian in London in the sense of persecution But there was still plenty of suffering

01:15:28

So And yeah, and like I said Marshall Christianity. Yeah. No, thank you The nation's will not it will not become

01:15:35

Christian in this age. Well, that's the eschatological issue some of us believe that there are promises of Scripture that say that That will be a blessing from God and that there will be

01:15:46

Sort of helps explain Abraham's Offspring being as numerous as the sand the sea the stars the sky stuff like that There is no call to Christians today to undo the curse

01:16:01

Except that it's been undone in us In the sense that we have been given new life and that curse has been taken by our

01:16:13

Savior and So, I'm not sure what he means here by that I've seen some Discussion About ordering one's life as the undoing of the curse or something

01:16:29

I'm not sure I get all of that. Maybe there's more of a context here than that I haven't read yet or not aware of but It does seem that the light of the gospel

01:16:41

Drives away the darkness, right? And is darkness part of what the curse is and if men's hearts are

01:16:51

Freed to be at peace with God through the gospel. Aren't they gonna be at peace with one another? The the ground doesn't cease to be cursed the creation there's still death

01:17:04

Up until the the final consummation of all things there's still death and and that kind of thing but there is a hope that the gospel actually changes things and not just in a individual sense, but collectively if There is that outpouring of the

01:17:26

Spirit of God So he then later said another tweet all the earth will become the footstool of Jesus We would say it already is

01:17:37

Jesus will heal the cosmos. That's what he's doing to us. Jesus will dry every tear

01:17:44

At the end. Yes Jesus will rule the earth in visible majesty Yes, but he already is in heaven

01:17:54

Jesus will make all things right agreed. Jesus will end the reign of wicked kings and nations Yes, but is that in one cataclysmic event or is that in?

01:18:07

Putting his enemies under his feet in a progressive sense Jesus will do but we can't well, we can't do any of this.

01:18:18

None of this is separate from Christ and He says soon. Well I'm not sure how you know that I mean

01:18:29

That the question that that I was asked that I could not answer is why do you think?

01:18:36

We're not still nearly church I mean all this is gonna be true for every believer who dies and enters into the presence of Christ all that Becomes a reality instantly.

01:18:47

Okay, fine, but I'm talking about in the historical sense What if there's still centuries to go what there's still millennia to go nobody

01:18:59

In the second century thought there was going to be a 21st century No Christians But there is we got to deal with that.

01:19:08

It it's real easy to just push that aside

01:19:14

But but we can't do that. We we have to recognize That that's a valid question and what does that mean if it's true

01:19:26

What if we're at the midpoint? No, what was that is that least a fair? possibility

01:19:34

I Know it was never something even considered in my youth in the churches.

01:19:40

I was in no no and That's pretty much the case with every generation every generation says is it?

01:19:47

It just can't last any longer. It's all gonna but of course that was Was believed during World War two

01:19:53

World War one The Napoleonic Wars everyone's always had that perspective and yet here we are and It seems to me that the

01:20:08

Breadth and depth of gospel proclamation around the world is Growing at a pace with the breadth and depth of sin and rebellion

01:20:20

There continues to be growth. I mean there are churches and places in this world that didn't exist in 1850

01:20:28

That a good thing or a bad thing. What's a good thing? It's a good thing As Do we have the ability to wipe ourselves off the planet now?

01:20:37

Yep, we do But we also could have been wiped off the planet by a simple plague

01:20:44

You know, there was a plague during Justinian's time killed lots and lots of folks, but it could have been worse and wiped everybody out

01:20:50

God didn't allow that to happen either so You got to have You got to be willing to step back and go

01:20:59

There's different ways of looking at at this and there are certain non -negotiables

01:21:06

And we can agree on those things, but I think it's important to be able to look at Other up other options that are that are on the table as well without then lobbying the

01:21:20

Heretic heresy arguments and all the rest that kind of stuff that goes along with it That doesn't help anybody.

01:21:26

So Hopefully we'll be able to point folks to this program in the future when people start doing the

01:21:39

What is? Your position and all the rest that kind of stuff The sort of us dialogues help because I'm talking with Doug at that point

01:21:49

I hear I'm interacting with other stuff and We tried it was our intention it was purposeful on our part

01:22:01

Okay It was purposeful on our part To seek to Model Christian disagreement

01:22:13

At g3 at the pre -conference Sadly at g3 as well in some ways

01:22:22

That is a mark of Christian maturity I think we have evidence that that's a good thing in the

01:22:30

New Testament. For example when The split

01:22:37

Paul Silas Paul Barnabas about mark remember, you know, no, I'm not going with mark He's he went away.

01:22:44

So he's out and then later on bring mark freeze. He's Useful to the ministry that seems to indicate

01:22:54

That there can be Disagreements that are healed over time That there may be strong disagreements between men who are

01:23:06

Spirit -filled but not perfected including Apostles that then over time are

01:23:14

Resolved there seems to be an indication of that in that particular instance In in the

01:23:20

New Testament then that's not on that was that was about a person that wasn't on theological issues

01:23:27

But we are in a situation where I Really believe that one of the greatest

01:23:34

I think one of the reasons that we aren't willing to work with people that we

01:23:43

There are some with a fundamentalist background that still hold on to the broad idea of Separatism be separate from the world then that becomes applied to be separate from anybody who doesn't look like you and think like you and act like you and That's what you see in fundamentalism

01:24:11

But people with that background even once they embrace a form of reformed theology and See the sovereignty of God and the centrality of grace and things like that can still hold on to some of that and be unwilling to allow for almost any degree of Difference in perspective

01:24:34

That's why I know Baptists who won't work with Presbyterians. I know

01:24:40

Presbyterians won't work with Baptist That's a important issue and I've debated it because I feel it's important.

01:24:51

I've preached on it. I've made my position known, but I can still work across that Division and that divide there are things dividing people in the reformed community today.

01:25:04

There aren't nearly as fundamental as baptism not nearly as fundamental as baptism, and I honestly see that as part of the judgment of God in our day a

01:25:17

Sound discerning church is a blessing on any nation. This nation is deserving of no blessings out is

01:25:24

Deserving no, so I use the term deserving of nothing but God's wrath I mean this nation has had so much light and has spit in God's face and I'm often thinking about How that impacts the church and why

01:25:39

We see so much division and we see so much pettiness and so much brittleness That's a term I've used a number of times now brittle

01:25:46

We've become to where you you just shatter into a thousand pieces at the least bit of pressure

01:25:57

Really can't develop that right now, but I Really think that That balance between holding the line on the definitional issues while allowing for the differences is a

01:26:16

Blessing that isn't necessarily going to be poured out at this time That doesn't mean that we don't stop praying for it and don't don't model it in and of ourselves

01:26:25

So you got to be willing to be the odd man out and Suffer some there's some suffering

01:26:34

Suffer some in the process if you if you have to so anyways, there you go.

01:26:40

That was a lot of stuff Yeah, jumbo edition today wasn't sure where how long we were gonna go but I have been informed

01:26:53

Again, you know The rich cams sitting there had to turn it off the rich light.

01:26:59

It took me a while to get the rich light off Because I just thought it was really strange to have a light staring at an empty chair in there

01:27:09

But the rich stuff it isn't working today because rich is doing this stuff remotely

01:27:16

Hopefully your package arrived and But somehow

01:27:21

I don't know how Rich can't play the music today And I wouldn't know if he did or didn't because I can't hear it as we started the top of the program so This is what we're gonna call a hard close

01:27:39

Or I'm gonna say Have yourself Oh Device conflict we have a device conflict going on.

01:27:49

This is probably something that happens with Windows That sounds like something

01:27:55

I remember from long ago in something called Windows little dots are dotting again

01:28:02

Two devices fighting for the same thing, you know, I knew what that was rich. I I didn't know what the device

01:28:10

I Should the last thing I will say to you before our hard close today is

01:28:16

I know you can't see this But I have found Actually, it's a program

01:28:24

I've had but I found a way to make it work better I have Christmas lights on this monitor today

01:28:32

Because because in the weather forecast in the weather forecast There are 70s now.

01:28:38

They're not here. It's about a hundred degrees today but in the weather forecast there is a hope of the coming of fall and So I have

01:28:49

Christmas lights On my on my monitor over here and rich just said Oh brother

01:28:55

He's not saying Oh brother as in addressing Mia's brother. He's just saying home brother. It's a different way of using the term brother