May 28, 2018 Show with Dr. Hensworth Jonas on “Dancing With Idolatry: Are You Bowing to a False God?”

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May 29, 2018

May 28, 2018: Dr. HENSWORTH JONAS, presiding elder at East Caribbean Baptist Mission, will be in the “Iron Sharpens Iron” Radio studio with me here in Carlisle, PA to give his testimony of salvation & to discuss his book “DANCING WITH IDOLATRY: Are YOU Bowing to a FALSE GOD?”

00:01: Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister
00:06: George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,
00:16: Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
00:23: Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.
00:32: Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
00:46: It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.
00:57: Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,
01:05: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth.
01:10: We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Memorial Day on this
01:19: Monday, May 28, 2018, and I'm delighted to have for the very first time on the program
01:25: Dr. Hensworth W .C. Jonas, who just preached yesterday at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
01:34: What a blessing it was to be sitting beneath his preaching for the first time. Dr. Hensworth W .C.
01:40: Jonas is magna cum laude graduate of Oklahoma Baptist University, having conducted graduate studies at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and Masters International University and Pensacola Theological Seminary, and he is a preaching elder or presiding elder,
01:59: I should say, of the East Caribbean Baptist Mission, a circuit of churches in Antigua and Barbuda, serving as a full -time pastor in the circuit since 1985.
02:12: He's the founder and principal of the Baptist Academy of Antigua, which serves grades
02:19: K through 12. He's the co -founder of the Caribbean Baptist Heritage Conference, a regional conference on Reform Theology for clergy and laity, and recipient of the
02:29: Grand Cross of the Most Precious Order of Princely Heritage, GCH, a national honor awarded to him by the
02:37: Governor -General of Antigua and Barbuda for his service in education administration.
02:44: And today we are addressing his book, Dancing with Idolatry, Are You Bowing to a False God?
02:50: And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dr. Hensworth W .C.
02:56: Jonas. It's a pleasure to be here with you, Chris. And this time around, I had mentioned to you the names
03:04: Antigua and Barbuda, and I mispronounced them. Am I pronouncing them correctly this time? You have got it right.
03:13: Well, before we even go into your personal testimony of salvation, which we always have first -time guests do on this program, at least we try to do that on an ongoing basis, especially when
03:25: I know my guest is a Christian. Sometimes, on rare occasions, I have non -Christian guests that have something to say of interest to a
03:33: Christian audience, but obviously you are a brother in Christ who is not only a Christian but shares my Reformed Theological background, in fact even a
03:43: Reformed Baptist background. But tell us about the East Caribbean Baptist Mission before we go into your own testimony.
03:48: East Caribbean Baptist Mission was founded by Central Baptist Church to propagate the gospel of God's free and sovereign grace throughout the
03:58: Eastern Caribbean. We are well aware that Reformed Theology is not strong in the
04:05: Caribbean region, and we wanted to make sure that we are an influence for the growth of Reformed Theology, and particularly
04:14: Reformed, Confessional Reformed Baptist faith in the region. And so Central Baptist Church launched that as a mission society using educational conference and radio and television ministries to propagate the gospel in the region, sub -region.
04:30: Yes, so I have heard what you just said, I had heard that before, that you have a radio and television program.
04:36: Well, right now just television. Just television. We had radio for a number of years. And can this be seen on TV anywhere outside of Antigua?
04:47: On some of the other adjacent islands, it can be seen. But it's also on ABS television, which is live streamed on the internet every
04:59: Sunday morning. Oh great, so a person here in the States can watch. Can watch, but also we have it on our website, and we also have a lot of YouTube clips of our programs.
05:13: And we have an app, ECBM app, on the app store.
05:21: Just type in Antigua Reformed Baptist, download our app, and you can follow many of our programs at Sovereign Grace Hour.
05:30: Oh great, Antigua Reformed Baptist. Antigua Reformed Baptist, or ECBM app.
05:36: You put that into your Google or even the app store, you can download our app. Okay, great.
05:42: And can any of this information also be found at the website for the
05:48: Baptist mission? Yes. Baptistantiga .org? That's correct. Baptistantiga .org,
05:55: and Antigua is spelled A -N -T -I -G -U -A. It is spelled the way that you would think that I mispronounced it earlier, before the show started.
06:06: I pronounced it Antigua. It's a Spanish word. The island was named
06:11: Antigua by Columbus in 1492. But of course, all the residents say
06:18: Antigua. Right, okay. And in fact, you would think they would say
06:23: Antigua or something like that. Well, Antigua would be a town somewhere in Central America.
06:30: Guatemala, I think. But now let's hear your personal testimony of salvation, what kind of religious atmosphere you had growing up, and how our sovereign
06:43: Lord got a hold of you and providentially brought circumstances into your life that drew you to himself and saved you.
06:49: Well, I was a little boy in elementary school when the Lord saved me. I was attending a
06:54: Baptist church that was being run by the Southern Baptists in Antigua and Barbuda. And my mom was a charter member of the first Baptist church established on the island.
07:04: She was formerly Arabian. And my dad, who died a number of years ago, was an
07:11: Anglican. But I was raised there in that small Baptist church and heard the gospel with abundant clarity one time.
07:21: And it rendered my life Christ. And at the time, though, the church was pretty much
07:28: Armenian in theology. But I knew I was radically saved. And of course, challenges of growing up were there where I rebelled and tried to get away, but God's hand was clearly upon me, even calling me into the work of the ministry.
07:46: And I did my college and seminary here in the United States, returned home.
07:52: In 1985, to pastor Central Baptist Church, my home church, and I've been there pastoring for 32 years.
08:02: I also was, by the grace of God, was able to plant two other churches on the island, the Tyroles Baptist Church and the
08:08: Covenant Baptist Church, and also founded 26 years ago the Baptist Academy of Antigua.
08:14: Now, how did you first discover the doctrines of sovereign grace, also nicknamed reform theology, also nicknamed
08:21: Calvinism, when you were in an Armenian setting in Antigua? Well, actually, it started right here in the
08:29: United States when I was in college and starting to read. And then when I went on to seminary my first semester,
08:35: I did a systematic theology course where the textbook was that Christian theology by Millard Erickson.
08:43: And it's a mild Calvinism, really. But he laid out the doctrine of predestination, and I said, listen, this is the truth.
08:56: And then an Armenian pastor gave me The Forgotten Spurgeon by Ian Murray. An Armenian pastor?
09:02: An Armenian pastor. He didn't know what he was getting into. That's ironic, because the very purpose that Ian Murray wrote that book was to highlight the
09:15: Calvinism of Spurgeon that had been forgotten. Well, it did that for me. So for a number of years,
09:24: I continued in the same Armenian Southern Baptist mode, until I took a leave of absence to go back to seminary, this time to a
09:36: Midwestern Baptist theological seminary in Kansas City. This is at the time before the conservative resurgence in the
09:43: Southern Baptist Convention, and it was a very liberal school. I remember in a spiritual formations class, one of my first classes there, a professor came in and said that, you're not getting what you're expecting here with spiritual formation.
09:56: I'm going to teach transactional analysis, which is a Neo -Freudian theory. Of course, a number of guys got up and walked out.
10:04: But I remember doing quite a bit of itinerant preaching, even back then, and met, for the first time, a confessional
10:15: Reformed Baptist Church, 1689 Confession of Faith, in Omaha, Nebraska.
10:23: And it was then and there that I made up my mind, I'm going home, I'm coming out of the closet.
10:31: Very dangerous phrase to use in Antigua, because of homosexuality being illegal there.
10:39: So, but you mean, obviously, theologically, as a Reformed Baptist. Well, technically, I want to say that homosexuality is not illegal.
10:47: Homosexual acts are. Okay. So, if you're homosexual, nobody's arresting you. But, of course, if you are caught committing buggery, you could be charged.
10:57: Yes. And that was on the books here. In fact, it still is, technically, in some states, but it's just overlooked and ignored.
11:05: In fact, vilified to have a law like that. In fact, I don't want to take too big of a detour here, because this is a fascinating thing that you just mentioned.
11:16: Do you believe that those laws in Antigua have actually prevented the spread of that activity?
11:26: I mean, you might not know what's going on behind closed doors, obviously, but since it is so unleashed here in the
11:36: United States and other places, even though you might not see people actually doing the actual acts in public, obviously, people are very frequently, everywhere you look, practically, these days, publicly advertising that that is their bent, if you will, that is their preferred sexual activity.
12:00: And has this, in some way, restrained this, do you believe, in Antigua?
12:08: Well, it's hard to say. Right now, as I said to someone recently, when
12:15: America sneezes, Antigua catches a cold, as does all of the Caribbean islands. We are living in the shadow of America and are greatly influenced by America.
12:24: I don't think I know of one Antiguan family that does not have American citizens in it.
12:30: We are inextricably linked. And so, what is affecting America is affecting
12:36: Antigua and Barbuda. I can see that attitudes are changing to a large extent. Buggery is normally an add -on charge, like if somebody is involved in any kind of sexual assault involving a man and a boy, they would charge them with buggery, an add -on charge, but it's kind of hard to detect for obvious reasons.
13:00: But right now, I could say that, for the most part, attitudes in Antigua and Barbuda, and a lot of the
13:06: Caribbean islands, are anti -homosexual. I think the churches still have some influence, but of course, attitudes are changing, and the pressure from outside to change, when aid and other kinds of economic development projects are linked to us removing certain things.
13:26: Because the Europeans, in particular, are very aggressive in trying to push their agenda. They usually try to pressure these micro -states in the
13:35: Eastern Caribbean to conform to their ways, when in fact, many of these laws we got from the colonial period, when they were, in fact, the heritage from England and Europe in many instances, but since they have moved away, now they are trying to force other people to follow their immorality.
13:59: Now, by the way, for those of you listening who have never heard the word buggery before, sometimes if you see a movie about England, in particular, from perhaps the 18th or 17th centuries or earlier, especially, not that that's restricted to those periods, but you will sometimes hear that term come up.
14:25: That's how I actually learned what it meant, by seeing the movie Rob Roy, that many of you may have seen, starring
14:32: Liam Neeson when he was a hero for Scotland, fighting for the independence of Scotland from British control.
14:42: And one of the villains of Rob Roy brought that phrase up, and I had never heard of it before and had to look it up.
14:49: But that is obviously now a common, that is still a common term in places like the Caribbean. Yes, it is.
14:55: And I know that this is not what we chose to speak about, but one more brief question about that.
15:01: There are even Christians who will say, since legislation and laws cannot change the heart of a man, that a government is better off allowing people to be as free as possible, because restrictions of any kind, in an authoritarian or dictatorial sense, may eventually lead to biting
15:26: Christians in the back, where Christians as well lose rights. But what is your opinion?
15:32: Do you think that even though we know, as Christians, laws of the land cannot transform those committing these wicked acts, these damnable acts, do you still believe it is a good thing to have rules and laws like that governing a people and restricting them?
15:51: Well, the laws usually come out of the morality of the country. It is what we believe that forms our laws and our opinions on what is right and wrong.
16:02: And so it actually is a testimony to the fact that a government and a people are moving away from biblical norms, when things like this are no longer considered important enough to have legislation concerning morality.
16:17: Some people say that you can't legislate morality. But rather, I want to make it clear that your legislation reflects your morality.
16:30: We announce what is important to us in what we codify as being the norm.
16:38: Yeah, a lot of people will make that claim you can't legislate morality. Just as I said earlier, you cannot legislate a rebirth, you can't legislate a transformation of the heart.
16:50: But people of all political or ideological or moral and ethic viewpoints have continually and still continue to attempt to legislate morality.
17:03: The civil rights movement was that very thing. Well, sin and, well, wickedness needs to be restrained.
17:12: Right. So while the purpose of legislation is not to change hearts, that's why we're preaching.
17:18: That's right. The purpose of legislation is to restrain the evil so that those who are committed to wickedness will not overrun us.
17:28: Amen. Amen. Well, going back to you discovering the doctrines of grace.
17:35: And let's have some more detail about how you realized you had a call upon your heart from God to be a pastor.
17:44: Well, I remember while I was in high school, I noticed that the
17:51: Baptist pastors in the region, a lot of them, especially in my part, my sub -region of the
18:00: Caribbean, the Eastern Caribbean, were not educated men.
18:06: The missionaries are very quick to lay hands on. And I found that problematic because I noticed that in our region, education is growing in importance, and there are a lot of professionals, and there are a lot of people getting scholarships and so on.
18:22: I had a burden in my heart for it, and I was expressing it to my minister one time. He said, but what about you?
18:29: What about you? I remember that was a ringing thing in my ear that I could never put down.
18:35: I could never drop it because I realized that I was given an opportunity to respond to this and to turn things around.
18:46: There were many who felt the same way as I did and pursued a theological education.
18:53: I returned home in 1985, even though I came back several times to continue my schooling, to Pastor Central Baptist Church, and I've been there for 32 years.
19:06: Praise God. Well, I know now, especially having heard you preach yesterday, that your flock that the
19:14: Lord has placed you over as an under -shepherd, they are certainly blessed in certainly that regard, in regard to the way that they are fed by your preaching.
19:26: Because anybody who has not yet heard Dr. Hensworth Jonas preach, go to YouTube, go to wherever you can go to find films and audio of him preaching.
19:40: Of course, if you hear about him preaching in your area, I strongly advise you do whatever you can to be there to hear him preach, because I was certainly blessed, and I know that the people with whom
19:53: I was sitting in church were thoroughly blessed, including one person at least who is not a born -again believer.
20:00: And I ask of you to pray for that person's soul. He is actually the second oldest son of the woman who led me to Christ, and he was very captivated by our brother's preaching yesterday.
20:14: So please pray that that word continues to linger in his heart and mind, and continues to chip away at his heart of stone, and that we hear good report soon that the
20:28: Lord has replaced that heart of stone with a heart of flesh, and that he begins to praise and worship the
20:36: Lord along with his mom in church, not just as somebody trying to appease her with his presence, which is a good thing for even an unbeliever to do, to honor their father and mother, but obviously it would do his mother an even better service.
20:55: Of course, that's not the primary reason that he should be born again, but she would be rejoicing even more loudly and gleefully and vibrantly, knowing that her son is truly born from above, and she can have peace that he will be with her for eternity with Christ, when the day comes when he is called off this earth by our
21:21: Lord. But I want to give our listeners our email address, ChrisOrensen at gmail .com,
21:27: ChrisOrensen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com,
21:33: if you have a question that you'd like to ask of your own, for our guest Dr. Hensworth W .C.
21:40: Jonas. We are going to be, in a moment, we're going to be beginning a discussion on his book,
21:46: Dancing with Idolatry, Are You Bowing to a False God? You can ask questions on that or on anything in regard to Reformed Theology, in regard to the
21:57: Caribbean, the theological climate there, in particular Antigua and Barbuda, and the
22:05: East Caribbean Baptist Mission there. That's C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
22:11: Please give us, as I said, your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the
22:16: USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
22:24: Perhaps you disagree with something that your pastor believes, and you would rather not draw attention to yourself.
22:34: I understand that. But perhaps you are just asking something in a matter of pastoral counsel from my guest today, since he is a pastor.
22:50: We can understand why you would want to remain anonymous. Perhaps you're even a pastor and you disagree with your own denomination or your own congregation on some theological matters, and you don't want to identify yourself.
23:01: Well then, please give us a note that you want to remain anonymous, and we will grant that request.
23:09: But otherwise, give us your name, your first name, your city and state, and country of residence, if you live outside the USA. Well, this title is a very captivating title.
23:21: Dancing with Idolatry, Are You Bowing to a False God? I thank you so much, by the way, for giving me an autographed copy of that book today.
23:29: I haven't had a chance to read it because I just got it in my hands today. But it's a very captivating title as well.
23:35: You have a native, perhaps, of Africa, I'm assuming, with a tribal mask of some kind.
23:42: But I'm assuming that, although you use that as a cover image, you're not really primarily talking about that as idolatry, are you?
23:51: It's actually more of the carnival scene in the region, every island.
23:57: Oh, this is actually in the Caribbean. Every island has their national carnival, so they're dancing in the streets, you know, and it's revelry.
24:05: I think it would be something similar to what you do in Mardi Gras. Well, not what I do, but what...
24:11: You, America, not you personally. You, people. But what was the driving force behind you saying,
24:22: I've got to write this book on idolatry? Well, I was, at the time, focused on the question of idolatry and thought that I needed to put it in print, some of the things that I was preaching and teaching on the subject.
24:40: Because I wanted to make it abundantly clear that even
24:45: Christians, professing Christians, can be idol worshippers.
24:51: You see... Amen. Whatever forms your identity will tell you about your
24:58: God. And there are many Christians who formally and nominally identify with Christ, but in actuality, their true identity is elsewhere.
25:13: And that is at the heart of idolatry. And so I wanted to expose that and call us to examine ourselves concerning what forms our identity.
25:27: Is it something vocational? Is it some kind of interest, like even a sporting interest?
25:36: Is it academics? Is it family? What is it that we look to to give us significance?
25:48: What is it that we look to to give us security? Is it Christ? Is He our source of significance?
25:57: Is He our source of security? Is He our identity? If it's not, you are involved in idol worship.
26:05: Yes. Even in ways that your average person, especially your average
26:11: Christian, who should be more sensitive and aware of these things, every time we sin, when we disobey
26:21: God, when we prefer our way of doing things over His way, or when we prefer doing something that He has forbidden, we are really placing ourselves as an idol, aren't we?
26:35: Yes, we are. As a matter of fact, that is at the heart of what sin is.
26:42: I quoted Timothy Keller in the book.
26:47: He said, Sin isn't only doing bad things. It is more fundamentally making good things into ultimate things.
26:57: Sin is building your life and meaning on anything, even a good thing, more than on God.
27:03: Whatever we build our life on will drive us and enslave us. Sin is primarily idolatry.
27:10: Amen. We have a listener in Slovenia. His name is
27:16: Joe. He says, Dear Brothers Chris and Dr. Jonas, Thanks again for addressing the weighty matters we all in the
27:25: Church need to face. Please explain the most prevalent idol plaguing the visible Church today.
27:31: What is most deceptive to both believers and unbelievers alike? We'll leave it there because he still has more questions to ask.
27:41: I'll ask those after you respond to his first questions. Explain the most prevalent idol plaguing the visible
27:47: Church today. Obviously, this would be an opinion that you may have.
27:53: Well, again, to say the most prevalent would be a gross generalization on my part.
28:00: But I would like to suggest that one big idol is our religion itself. Our narrow categories that we elevate to the position of being normative for all.
28:13: Yeah, that's a heavy -hitting statement that should hurt the feelings of everyone, no matter what theological position that you may have.
28:20: Even a Reformed Baptist should hear that. Well, of course it does. Because we even watch among Reformed people how quickly we fragment, how quickly we form factions.
28:33: That is because we have made an idol out of our particular religious definitions to the point that we cannot even wait for others to come to what we believe is an enlightened position.
28:48: We have to destroy a relationship in order to have the supremacy of our position.
28:56: When the only talk of supremacy should be the supremacy of God himself.
29:02: Alright, but very often we cannot...
29:07: I'm not suggesting in any way that there'd be a tolerance of error or even immorality.
29:15: But we need dialogue to learn. We need connection to learn.
29:23: So when there is fragmentation, you know that an idol is there. We have to defend our little
29:30: God. This person is trampling on our God. So we have to destroy them in order to maintain the position of our
29:42: God. When in fact, Christ engaged detractors.
29:49: He demolished them. But in many ways, you find him listening and explaining and teaching and guiding.
29:56: Amen. Yeah, I don't know if you're aware of this, but for years every year, and now typically twice a year,
30:05: I have a pastor's luncheon. And I primarily invite conservative evangelicals of varying stripes, a spectrum of evangelicals to attend these luncheons, which now have up to a hundred people in attendance.
30:25: And although I... They're free of charge, by the way. And they have a meal and there's a guest speaker.
30:34: And also I get hundreds of books donated to me, brand new books by major publishers.
30:40: I select the specific title from each publisher that I think would be a blessing to the pastors in attendance.
30:48: And each publisher donates about a hundred copies of that title so I can give it to each and every person that attends.
30:55: But although I go out of my way to specifically reach out to conservative evangelicals,
31:03: I would not prohibit a liberal minister from joining us there because he's there to listen.
31:10: He's not going to be speaking. Or even a Roman Catholic priest, if one were to walk in there. None have yet that I know of.
31:16: But I have had pastors walk up to me at some of these gatherings and they've actually said to me, what's he doing here?
31:27: And I said, well, I'm hoping that he's going to hear the truth and perhaps be blessed by the doctrines of grace being taught and spoken and preached and declared.
31:39: And my response very often is to people who gather in their own little monasteries only with those that reflect something nearly identical to what they believe.
31:52: I say to them, well, if you dare to criticize and even rightfully criticize the views and teachings and doctrine and theology of those outside of our camp, how do you expect them to ever discover, embrace, and cherish those things that we cherish and teach them unless we have some kind of contact with them?
32:16: Well, unless there's some kind of means of transferring information that doesn't involve dialogue.
32:25: We have to engage people. And every person who resists dialogue on opposing position needs to remember that they were not always where they are.
32:38: They had to hear from someone. They had to engage someone who differed with them.
32:45: And they were enlightened because they listened. And so we need to foster dialogue.
32:50: And the people who are weakest concerning their position are the people who want to stifle interaction and dialogue and will emphasize fragmentation.
33:01: But if you're confident that you are speaking the truth, that what you are saying is right and correct, why the fear of engaging others?
33:10: Amen. We are going to go to our first break. And don't worry, Joe from Slovenia, I'll ask the other questions that you have included in your email of Dr.
33:21: Hensworth Jonas right after we return from the break. Anybody else who would like to join us as well, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,
33:29: chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please don't forget to give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
33:36: USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal or private matter.
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36:07: Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every
36:13: Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio.
36:18: www .wlie540am .com
36:24: We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.
36:31: Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon
36:37: Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back, this is
36:43: Chris Orringen if you just tuned us in. Our guest today for the full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is
36:50: Dr. Hensworth W .C. Jonas who is presiding elder of the East Caribbean Baptist Mission or Caribbean, depending upon how you like to pronounce that.
37:00: We are discussing his book Dancing with Idolatry Are You Bowing to a False God?
37:06: Our email address is chrisorringen at gmail .com chrisorringen at gmail .com
37:12: Before I return to a couple of Joe and Slovenia's other questions in regard to the idolatry of theology that we were just discussing isn't it true also not only that we need to develop relationships with people whether they are lost completely lost or even within the context of those that are believers with false teaching that we also need to be prepared especially when we're talking about our brothers in Christ of different theological groups that they may have a strength in their lives or perhaps even in their teaching that we have overlooked or that we have failed at I mean
38:00: I know people outside of the reformed faith who are far superior to myself in certain areas of life some of them are even a lot more patient about things about conflict that arises in their lives like arose in my own life when this program started late because there were technical errors that were going on that I had to have repaired but there are all kinds of circumstances in life where I have noticed that those who are my
38:34: Christian brethren who are not reformed have a superiority in their lives over me and if you could comment on that Well there is no doubt that we can learn something from almost everyone
38:48: If you could repeat that for a second because I had you accidentally unmute there Well I said there is no doubt that we can learn something from almost everyone even a child and so it's important to build relationships and to validate people's experiences whenever those are clearly useful and to show their humanity and dignity but that doesn't mean that we have to endorse error
39:16: Right, exactly We can engage error and point out error but we need to do so in love and with respect and to make sure that we challenge particular perspectives scripturally but lovingly
39:32: Now as far as the question the first question that Joe in Slovenia asked the most prevalent idol plaguing the visible church
39:43: I could not help but think of acceptance by the world because of the way that the church at large continues to soften its approach to certain sins and also has sought to change even the manner in which we worship and teach and preach and conduct a worship service we more and more are attempting to mimic the world thinking that they need to be more comfortable in here the goats need to be more comfortable amongst the sheep so we've got to do things the way they like them
40:18: I am very glad that you made that suggestion because in answering the question we are better off delineating the idols that we see among Christians rather than trying to assess which one is most prevalent but that is certainly a prominent one whereby the church is seeking the accreditation the approbation the applause of the world and so to do so involves some serious areas of compromise because if we continue to give the world that much power over us in other words for them to validate us that we are indeed scholars we are indeed worthy of being read so we've got to join their club you read my mind because I think that that specific thing that you just mentioned is more predominant amongst performed
41:18: Christians that amongst certain teachers and authors and professors and pastors among us there seems to be this longing for the liberal and even leftist academia to look upon us as worthy of their company worthy of mentioning them of them mentioning us or taking us seriously to the point where there is confusion being brought into pulpits and into books and into lectures at conferences there's confusion even over things as basic as homosexuality where there's not a clear denunciation of it
42:01: Well, wherever the culture is going we forget that we are supposed to be changing it and not allowing it to change us but of course nobody likes to be called narrow -minded no one likes to be called fringe and the leftists and the liberals will use these labels to intimidate and many cower in the face of such intimidation and tries to soften their positions or to avoid being labeled but it's imperative that we take a stand for the truth and to be confident and happy to be separate
42:49: Well, our listener also wants to know what is most deceptive to both believers and unbelievers alike?
42:58: Right now another thing that I would add to the picture to help this listener is the cult of the self that is massively prominent this is the
43:11: Oprah Winfrey mantra you know, the Joel Osteen mantra you know, who just mimics the same thing with a few bible verses occasionally, sometimes not even some bible verses but with a big smile and there's a champion in you a lot of people are buying into that where self is the god you're worshipping yourself you look to yourself for your identity you look to yourself for significance you look to yourself for definition you look to yourself for validation everything is self -focused some have even gone to the scriptures to the great commandments to love the
43:55: Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself and Christ made it clear that the two on the two is the law and the prophets built and some make it three they see three but when
44:13: Christ said on this two they see self -love as being something that Christ is pushing
44:22: Christ only and always points to self -love as the problem and even as a given it's something that we already do it's not something that we need to learn to do that's the thing we run away with that's the source of our problems but when in fact he said in Luke 9 .23
44:43: if any man will come after me let him deny himself take up his cross daily and follow me so it's in self -denial that we're going to get answers not in self -love yes
44:54: I just I believe it was perhaps
45:00: Saturday I tuned in to the Hour of Power television program which was a television program started by Robert Shuler who
45:12: I believe may be deceased right now I'm almost certain but his son
45:19: Bobby is now the host so when I saw the program advertised I just wanted to see if Bobby had any difference from his father
45:28: Robert who basically championed what you were just talking about and sure enough right in the first 60 seconds of the program
45:38: Bobby Shuler amongst the other announcements and prayer that he had with his wife he said we're hoping and I'm paraphrasing because I didn't write down what he said but this was certainly the gist of what he said he said we want people to stop judging especially themselves now obviously we're supposed to judge rightly as the
46:07: Lord has told us in his word we are to have discernment and make judgments that would be ridiculous everybody does that and it would be sinful if we didn't
46:18: I mean even if you want to bring it down to something that should get the attention of every single person regardless if they're a
46:29: Christian or not when you hire a babysitter for instance or someone to watch over your little children while you're away you are going to be using a judgment about that person that you invite into your home at least
46:39: I would hope that you would but when he says especially ourselves I mean we're supposed to be judging ourselves and examining our hearts on an ongoing basis because the heart is so desperately wicked that who can know it am
46:54: I right? This argument by the Shuler crowd is completely nonsensical and to be bashing judging is not only ridiculous it condemns the whole existence of a judiciary that's what they do they judge
47:12: I mean but to attack it directly in Matthew 7 when we're told to judge not it's dealing with self -righteous condemnation it's not talking about the necessity of assessing things and coming to biblical judgments concerning the same including ourselves this is indispensable to living a
47:39: Christian life so what the Shuler people are talking about I actually heard
47:46: Robert Shuler one time say you know I don't tell people they're sinners they might believe it I tell them
47:54: I tell them they're saved they might believe that you know and so I mean this is the kind of nonsense that even like Joel Osteen one time on a program a long time ago
48:09: I think it was a Larry King live program a long time ago I saw him where he was asked by King about his particular view on homosexuality and abortion he says
48:18: I don't go there I don't go there just imagine that it's just like a doctor you go into your doctor's office and you tell him about your particular malady and you're like I don't go there he's supposed to be a physician of the soul and he doesn't go there he's not touching moral issues and ethical issues and matters of sin because he doesn't want to be controversial because he's going to mess with his brand and you know he's got to get the people to keep coming in and giving and what not he has the big smile and what not but one thing
48:52: I must give him though he was pretty honest about saying that he never he never trained theologically he never really went to Bible school this is
49:01: Osteen yeah he really inherited he just inherited his father's kingdom right you know his
49:07: Lakewood kingdom and he has taken it to a higher level yeah his dad had a totally different persona his dad from what
49:19: I remember hardly ever smiled whereas his son never stopped smiling you know you cannot be preaching the whole counsel of God if you're always smiling obviously and his dad
49:29: I almost prefer the fact that his dad even though he hated Calvinism had some kind of a theological position on something where his son seems to be a theological well when you write a book that talks about having your best life now you know you've completely missed it yeah
49:49: John MacArthur actually said of that specific title if your best life is now that means you're going to hell exactly what else could it be because the whole idea is to get to the better and the best right amen let's see what else our friend from Slovenia has asked do you have tips for teaching preaching or discipleship to address this idol amongst
50:15: God's people well in preaching and by the way you should know that Joe in Slovenia is a
50:23: Southern Baptist missionary there oh that is wonderful because I cherish my Southern Baptist roots as a matter of fact
50:30: I cherish the Founders Movement yes Tom Askle Tom Askle good friend of mine yes he has preached in our church and Don Whitney and all the guys in that movement and I hope and pray that more and more
50:44: Southern Baptists will come this way but the we have to preach the whole counsel of God and stick with the doctrines of grace and let's not think that there are some new prescriptions for these old problems some lack of faith in what we have and the simplicity of what we have and the profundity of what we have that is the problem where we are seeking new methods and new new methodologies new when in fact a serious application of the old is what we need
51:28: Amen I'm going to read you a question and then we'll have you answer the question when we come back from the break since we are coming upon a break very quickly and I don't want to cut you off mid -sentence but we have
51:41: Mary in the Republic of Ireland and Mary if you wouldn't mind even clarifying what city in the
51:48: Republic of Ireland you are from but she says I am thinking about the Lords of the
51:53: Philistines who were offering a sacrifice to Dagon their God believing he had given
51:59: Samson their enemy into their hand they took the Ark of God and brought it into the house of Dagon and set it up beside him next day
52:09: Dagon had fallen face downward on the ground before the Ark of the Lord they put him back and the next day
52:15: Dagon's head and hands were lying cut off on the threshold only the trunk of Dagon was left to him that's from 1
52:24: Samuel 5 verses 2 -4 it speaks for itself in the New Testament Paul says at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is
52:38: Lord to the glory of God the Father from Philippians chapter 2 10 -11 everything and everyone will bow the knee one day well actually this is obviously just a statement a comment not a question but perhaps you could comment on the comment when we return from our break and if you could
52:57: Mary give us the city that you're listening from in the Republic of Ireland and our email address for any others that want to join us is chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the
53:13: USA and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away we'll be right back
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01:06:32: Before I return to my discussion with Dr. Hensworth WC Jonas on his book
01:06:37: Dancing with Idolatry, are you bowing down to a false god? I just have a couple of announcements to make.
01:06:43: First of all, Dr. Jonas and I are both going to be in attendance tomorrow through Thursday, that's the 29th of May through the 31st of May, in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania at the
01:06:55: Elizabethtown College at the Banner of Truth U .S. Ministries Conference. The speakers include
01:07:02: Alistair Begg, Johnny Gibson, Mark Johnston, Al Mohler, David Strain, and Craig Troxell.
01:07:07: If you'd also like to be in attendance at the Banner of Truth U .S. Ministries Conference, go to banneroftruth .org,
01:07:13: click on events, and then click on 2018
01:07:19: U .S. Ministries Conference. Make sure you click U .S. and not U .K. because they also have already had
01:07:26: U .K. Ministries Conferences, so you'll be directed to the wrong information. Click on U .S.
01:07:31: Ministries Conference and you will see the information about the conference at the Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania, May 29th through the 31st.
01:07:38: The theme is Ministers of Christ, and Dr. Hensworth, Jonas, and I will be there in the audience being blessed,
01:07:48: I'm sure, by all of those speakers, and I hope that you join us, and I hope that you greet me at some point during a break and let me know that you are in the listening audience of Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and I look forward to meeting many of you there, not only those of whom
01:08:03: I have already met at other conferences, but also I'd love to meet folks for the first time as I normally do when attending something like this, who say that they have listened to Iron Trip and Zion Radio and have been blessed by it.
01:08:17: Also, the G3 Conference, another conference where I intend to be, and I'm looking forward to that, the
01:08:25: G3 Conference, which is being held at the International Convention Center in Atlanta, Georgia.
01:08:32: That is going to be held from the 17th of January, which is a
01:08:38: Thursday, through the 19th of January, which is a Saturday, and they are expecting over 4 ,000 people to this conference.
01:08:46: I am going to have an exhibitors booth at the G3 Conference, and I always love meeting you who are in the
01:08:53: Iron Trip and Zion listening audience who greet me at that booth, and some of you have even been interviewed by me at that booth that will be there,
01:09:01: God willing, this coming January. And the speakers, there's always a very long lineup of speakers at the
01:09:10: G3 Conference, and it's no exception in 2019. God willing, Paul Washer will be there,
01:09:16: John Piper, David Platt, Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom, Mark Dever, Conrad M.
01:09:22: Bayway, a mutual friend of both Hensworth, Jonas, and myself, Tim Challies, Phil Johnson, Josh Bice, David Barcelo, Salvador Gomez, Anthony Methenia, Todd Friel, David Miller, Jeremy Volo, Stephen Nichols, Don Curran, Cindy Curran, Martha Peace, Chip Thornton, Chris King, and Owen Straken.
01:09:43: If you would like to join us at the G3 Conference in January of 2019, that's from the 17th through the 20th, then go to g3conference .com,
01:09:56: g3conference .com, and please, if you register, tell the folks at the
01:10:04: G3 Conference that you heard about it from Chris Orensen and Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And by the way, I just misspoke. The conference is the 17th through the 19th, not the 17th through the 20th.
01:10:13: Thursday, January 17th, through Saturday, Saturday, January 19th at the
01:10:19: International Convention Center in Atlanta, Georgia, the Georgia International Convention Center.
01:10:24: It's actually in College Park, which is a suburb of Atlanta, and I look forward to seeing you. Go to g3conference .com,
01:10:32: g3conference .com. And now last but not least is the time of the program that's least comfortable for me, but I've got to do it.
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01:11:52: There will be a snail mail address there as well. If you want to advertise with us, send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:11:58: chrisarnson at gmail .com, and put advertising in the subject line, whatever it is you want to advertise, whether it's your church, your parachurch ministry, your business, your professional practice, or a special event that you're having.
01:12:11: As long as whatever it is you're promoting is compatible with what we believe here on Iron Trip and Zion Radio, I would love to help you launch an ad campaign.
01:12:19: You don't have to believe identically with me, but you do need to be promoting something that is compatible with the views of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.
01:12:26: So that's chrisarnson at irontripandzionradio .com, I'm sorry, chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,
01:12:33: and put advertising in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send questions to our guest, Dr.
01:12:39: Hensworth Jonas, that's chrisarnson at gmail .com. We are talking about idolatry and specifically his book,
01:12:48: Dancing with Idolatry, Are You Bowing Down to a False God? And we look forward to hearing from you at chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:12:57: Dr. Jonas, before the break, I read you a comment by Mary, she confirmed or clarified that she's from Cork, Ireland, and she wanted to know your responses to the passages in 1
01:13:12: Samuel 5 involving Dagon and also the account in Philippians chapter 2, 10 verses 11, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is
01:13:30: Lord to the glory of God the Father. Do you have any comments that you care to share on what she has said here today?
01:13:37: Well this is a very powerful Old Testament reference to Dagon and actually magnifies what
01:13:45: I have been saying concerning what idolatry is and what it does. The Philistines were an agrarian society.
01:13:56: I think it was corn that was their crop. Corn was the thing, so all of their gods had something to do with their whole fertility situation and so corn was king and so they had to do everything possible to show the prominence of the same.
01:14:18: Of course they had a visible god, a visible idol, a statue, which the
01:14:25: Lord struck down to show that indeed he is the only true and living God.
01:14:31: I think it's symbolic that his hands were chopped off the symbol of power and the head was chopped off the symbol of control and sovereignty, but this is the heart of the matter.
01:14:45: What is it that we are elevating in our lives to the preeminent position that will define us, that will establish just what our identity is, that will give us significance and security?
01:15:01: What is it? It could be the corn, it could be the wheat, it could be the gold, it could be your money, it could be your property, it could be your vocation, it could be particular ideas.
01:15:16: We can make gods out of anything. John Calvin said that man is basically an idol factory, meaning that we can just pump out the gods on anything and so yes, she rightfully raised that scenario with Dagon to make a powerful case, but in relation to the discussion of the kenosis in Philippians 2, clearly the true and living
01:15:46: God, the one who is sovereign over the universe, will always rise to preeminence and that is what our
01:15:56: Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is and so we can count on the fact that every idol will be trampled on the foot and that the supremacy of Christ will be abundantly clear to all.
01:16:11: Amen and in fact, sadly and tragically, there will be multitudes, countless multitudes, who are bowing the knee to Christ when it is too late.
01:16:23: Yes. And they will be without any other choice as it were, bowing the knee to him and confessing him as Lord, but they are doing so in terror knowing that their condemnation is just moments away.
01:16:38: But bow they will. Yes. Amen. We have Ted in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, who asks,
01:16:47: I was intrigued by your response to Chris's question about the illegality of buggery in your home country.
01:16:54: If I recall correctly, you said that the laws of a country are a reflection of its morality.
01:17:01: Fair enough. However, it reminded me of my one -time argument against gay marriage, which was that society did not have to change its rules because two people of the same sex claim to have a loving relationship.
01:17:17: But then a funny thing happened. Society changed its rules. Once it did, I felt hard -pressed to make an argument against gay marriage in light of my previous argument.
01:17:28: So what will you do if your country changes its laws on buggery? What if they go a step further and make it a hate crime for pastors to speak out against homosexuality?
01:17:40: Should that happen? What would your response be in light of your prior statement that laws are a reflection of a country's morality?
01:17:51: I don't have to do anything different than the first century Christians who lived in the society where Christianity was illegal.
01:18:01: We have to preach Christ and understand the offense of the gospel and embrace the suffering that comes with preaching the gospel.
01:18:12: It is one of the idols of our generation to run away from suffering.
01:18:18: The Christianity of most people today does not have suffering in it. We can't change our message if the government changes its position.
01:18:26: We have to continue to bow to one Lord. Bowing to any other
01:18:32: Lord is idolatry. We have one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
01:18:39: All right? So we have to preach the gospel no matter what the position of any government is.
01:18:46: And should my government change its position, I will continue to preach just what I've always preached, which is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
01:18:54: Now, one thing that I often caution against, and I think it came out in my message last
01:19:00: Sunday, was that the world around us is always asking us what is the church's position on this or that.
01:19:07: That's right, you did bring that up. And we attempted to politicize our message and to become activists in the sense of engaging in that dialogue.
01:19:21: Now there is a place for some involvement for Christians. We should be voting, we should be participating in the political process.
01:19:29: But we should not dilute our message. Our message is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
01:19:36: And yes, it does address everything. And as I pointed out in that message on Sunday last, the most crucial question is, is
01:19:48: Jesus who he said he is? Because once you answer that question, you've answered all the other questions.
01:19:55: Because he will then define for you what your view is on homosexuality, what your view is on immigration, what your view is on anything.
01:20:03: Because is Jesus who he says he is, is the crucial thing that matters.
01:20:09: And don't you think that we have to constantly remind ourselves that when we preach and when we evangelize and the issue of homosexuality comes up and we denounce it and we warn against it, this is an act of love.
01:20:25: This is not hate speech. We want to, by the mercy and grace of God, see people rescued out from that behavior so that they may have eternal life with us by embracing
01:20:38: Jesus Christ and repenting of that wickedness. This is not something that we do.
01:20:44: And if Christians or professing Christians are doing it just because it makes them look more holy or superior, that is sinful.
01:20:52: But the intention of a faithful Christian, a Bible -believing and biblically faithful Christian, is out of love, wanting to see that person or those people rescued from that behavior, correct?
01:21:05: Well, the whole concept of hate speech needs to be challenged.
01:21:11: I am not an American, but I think the American Constitution is one of the greatest things ever on your
01:21:18: Bill of Rights. All right? Now, when you talk about hate speech, there are obvious things that have to be dealt with, like shouting fire in a theater, all right?
01:21:29: Obviously, certain limitations must be on speech. However, to characterize your doctrinal position against the immorality of homosexuality as hate speech is actually to go against the very foundation of what this country is about, that everyone should be allowed to have their position clear.
01:21:53: I remember watching one of your senators in the debate, in the confirmation of your
01:22:00: CIA director attack the nominee for asking her if she considered homosexuality immoral.
01:22:14: And I was just hoping she had the presence of mind to turn it around and ask, do homosexuals consider the
01:22:21: Christian position against homosexuality to be immoral? There you go. Now, so really and truly, we do need to address this whole matter because it's just a tactic to intimidate and to silence our position.
01:22:37: Now, it is very important that we make ourselves abundantly clear that homosexuality is only one of the sins.
01:22:43: Right. Sometimes we elevate it to be the greatest abomination, but God hates all sin.
01:22:52: Yes. And homosexuality can be repented of, just like adultery, like theft or even murder, it can be repented of.
01:23:02: And so we must not single out homosexuals for our disdain and hatred.
01:23:10: No, no, no, no, no. We should lovingly approach them and show them the immorality of their ways.
01:23:15: And it is a very easy thing to refute because, I mean, one time
01:23:22: I was explaining to my church that the problem with homosexuality is, it seems to be a very big problem for academics and intellectuals.
01:23:31: You know, they really can't figure it out, but plumbers have it all figured out. You know, a plumber knows that you can't put a male fitting on another male fitting or you're gonna get a leak.
01:23:43: It's just illogical. How in the world can you talk about orientation when even the locksmith understands it?
01:23:54: You know, can a key have an orientation that has no reference to a lock?
01:24:01: It doesn't make any sense. It's really an illogical thing. And it's perversion of the worst kind because it produces nothing.
01:24:09: A homosexual relationship produces nothing. All right? And so God made us male and female, and just like a locksmith makes locks and keys.
01:24:22: If you just have locks, two locks, you're not going anywhere. If you have two keys, you're not going anywhere.
01:24:32: You need a lock and a key to have a real transaction. Amen. And just to give some of the benefit of the doubt to Christians who speak out on homosexuality, sometimes it might be rightly said that there is a lopsided approach to evangelism where that is identified in some way as the worst sin that one could ever commit.
01:25:02: But at the same time, it is one of the few sins that governments are trying to enforce upon people, not only to tolerate but to celebrate.
01:25:14: There is something unique about the sin. Even abortion is monstrous as it is because it is murder, it's infanticide.
01:25:22: Governments right now, at least, I shouldn't even say that China has done this, but the
01:25:27: United States, and I'm assuming obviously Antigua and other places, the governments, while allowing it, they're not forcing it upon its citizens.
01:25:38: Homosexuality, there is an attempt being made, not that they're forcing us to behave that way, but they're forcing us to celebrate it or pay the consequences.
01:25:48: For instance, and I'm even sure there is no major newscast in the
01:25:53: United States where an anchor person could get away with delivering the news about some progress in the rights of homosexuals without a beaming smile on his face or her face.
01:26:11: They always seem to be celebrating this because they know they have to. That's what may make it seem like there's a lopsided approach to this sin in the pulpits of many and the public evangelism of many.
01:26:24: Do you think I'm off base here? I think you're absolutely correct. We are living in some strange times where the homosexual crowd does have the ascendancy in many quarters, where individuals are making it a point to force it down your throat, and that is why
01:26:46: Christians just need to go back to the basics. I notice that there's always a call for us to come up with something new when we're not doing what we have.
01:26:57: We don't need new stuff. We need to look at what we have.
01:27:02: And the Bible is described as the unsearchable riches of Scripture. Exactly. So what we need to return to is separation.
01:27:12: You see, we have embraced this integration thing. Christians will maintain their distinctives and have a greater impact if people can see our distinctives and see that we are not afraid to be separate from the world.
01:27:27: But today, the whole idea is if we're going to reach them, we have to join them. Join them?
01:27:33: No, no, no. We need to come out from among them and be separate, said the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you.
01:27:43: So we need to actually give hope to homosexuals by letting them see the separation and the holiness of Christians.
01:27:55: Amen. And that there must be the declaration that they need to repent, wouldn't you agree?
01:28:04: Because I have noticed, even from the writings and words of professedly reformed
01:28:13: Christians from pulpits and lecterns, that there is a growing acceptance of viewing someone as a gay
01:28:23: Christian, that they are in some way safe with those proclivities that need not disappear from their lives as long as they're chased.
01:28:36: Well listen to me, this is a clear example of a cop -out, of a person surrendering to this form of idolatry.
01:28:44: There can be no such thing as a gay Christian, any more than you can have a thieving
01:28:51: Christian or a lying Christian. These things cannot characterize your faith, that means they are dominant and sin shall not have dominion over you.
01:29:02: Christians do lie, Christians do steal, Christians do engage in sexual perversion,
01:29:09: Christians do all these things, but these things cannot characterize your Christianity. These have to be the anomalies, these have to be things that you hate and repent of.
01:29:20: They can't be defining your Christianity, gay Christian, what kind of nonsense is that? Unless of course you're using the word the way it was intended to mean happy.
01:29:32: Well you can't do that anymore. That's right. Well we're going to our final break right now, this is going to be a lot briefer than the last one, and if you'd like to join us on the air, speak now or forever hold your peace because we're rapidly running out of time.
01:29:45: Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the
01:29:53: USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Dr.
01:29:59: Hensworth W .C. Jonas right after these messages from our sponsors. One sure way all
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01:34:03: Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every
01:34:09: Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on WLIE Radio www .wlie540am
01:34:19: .com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.
01:34:27: Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon
01:34:33: Eastern Time for A Visit to the Pastor's Study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back, this is
01:34:39: Chris Arnzen if you just tuned us in, but for the last 90 minutes we have been discussing
01:34:45: Dancing with Idolatry, the book by Hensworth WC Jonas who's my guest in studio today for Memorial Day and if you'd like to join us please email your question quickly because we're rapidly running out of time.
01:34:58: Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. chrisarnzen at gmail .com. We have
01:35:04: CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island who asks, I don't know what the situation is in Antigua but here in the
01:35:12: United States even conservative reformed Christians seem to be having a battle right now over who is a bigot and racist and what that actually means.
01:35:23: Do you think that some of the black brothers and sisters who are leading the charge against some white
01:35:29: Christians are actually guilty of slander when they accuse them publicly of racism and have elevated race to an idol?
01:35:37: I do believe so. Some of the biggest racists are people who have been subjected to racism and so no one has a corner on racism but many have developed out of their being subjected to racism a kind of entitlement and so they think they have a right to be racist but that doesn't make any sense.
01:36:01: How in the world can you support the activity that has victimized you? So anyone who is not a racist will reject all racism or even reverse racism and to make sure that everyone is treated with respect and honor.
01:36:19: I know many will make a case that there needs to be some form of reparations in this and because of the history of slavery and even discrimination where civil rights are being trampled upon but where do you stop?
01:36:34: We have to take everyone as an individual and we need to begin to deal with everyone as Christ would.
01:36:43: So the gospel of Jesus Christ is the answer to all such problems. If you come to Christ you cannot be a racist.
01:36:51: If you are a racist you need to be saved. Amen. That is clearly an idol one's race if they are looking upon another human by presuming some sort of sin or fault that is intrinsically a part of their nature just by virtue of the color of their skin.
01:37:13: Well many I must admit to you have actually made an industry out of the civil rights movement you know and so they are getting a lot of persons of African descent to be looking back all the time but you're not going to get anywhere looking back you have to look forward and many persons today but while there was still very much a lot of racism around most people today in my experience and living in America have the freedom to be whatever they want to be.
01:37:54: I remember going to a private Christian university in Oklahoma where it was 90 something percent white where I sat in the front not at the back with the basketball players.
01:38:07: And you're saying that they chose to sit there I'm assuming. Well not all of them not all of them we don't want to generalize but there are quite a few people who came to school to play basketball they did not come to study.
01:38:20: No what I mean is that the basketball players sat in the back of the room because they wanted to sit in the back. Oh yes. Certainly certainly and there were athletes who were also scholars who were interested in in getting an education but what
01:38:33: I'm saying is I did not let my race define me.
01:38:38: I decided that I was going to sit in the front and I was going to ace the class. I decided that I would look everybody in the eye
01:38:46: I would say well for one it may be a little different for me because I've never been a minority you know of African descent but in my country we are the majority and so it's only when
01:38:57: I came to America that I really understood that I was a black man but all my life before that I was just a man anyway.
01:39:06: Yes amen. Well going back to that before we go on to other areas of the book
01:39:13: I'm assuming then from everything you said it is a lie that there is a lie that's continued to be perpetuated that a person who has been or should
01:39:28: I say a person who is a part of a group that has been oppressed enslaved and been treated miserably cannot be guilty of the sin of racism.
01:39:44: I have heard even those words come from people who have theologies that in many ways are identical to mine.
01:39:57: They're not liberals they're not people who are denying the deity of Christ and the resurrection and things like that but they have uttered those very words that you cannot be black and be a racist.
01:40:09: I find that absolutely astonishing that anybody with intelligence could utter such ridiculous words not only ridiculous but sinful because it is not only theologically obvious that that's wrong but it's even from what we can even view and see from current history and past history that no matter what color your skin is no matter no matter what melanin content you have in your skin there have been people of all skin color groups and ethnic groups who have hated other people who have differences.
01:40:45: Well the statement is nonsensical it's an ignoramus who makes such a statement it's it dunce because it's it's like saying because my goods have been stolen
01:40:57: I have a right to steal your stuff. Yes. It doesn't make any sense
01:41:03: I don't think we should even dignify it. Yes. With a further response. I agree with you.
01:41:08: Well I want to make sure that since I have not read the book yet I was just handed the book today but I want to make sure that some of the other points that you bring up in the book are addressed we obviously can't bring them all up today because we're about 20 minutes from going off the air.
01:41:24: But I think we need to make one thing clear. Sure. How you can get it. Oh yeah definitely. How can you get it? Well it's on amazon .com
01:41:30: Barnes & Noble you can just go in there and type in dancing with idolatry and all my name ends with Jonas and you can get it both in print or in ebook format.
01:41:40: Great and the sponsors of my program that are book distributors cvbbs .com
01:41:47: if they do not already have it they will definitely order it for you that's cvbbs .com
01:41:53: which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service cvbbs .com they have been distributors of the finest and reformed and Puritan literature for decades in fact they are in their 31st year of serving
01:42:05: Christ and his people with the finest in literature but if you could bring up some of these poignant issues that we want to address before we go off the air.
01:42:14: The concerning the book okay well as far as different forms of idolatry that we may have overlooked or oh well again just as we said that Calvin said that the human heart is an idol factory you really cannot finish or give an exhaustive list of idols.
01:42:33: So what we did in the book was basically to walk through the scriptures showing how everyone is tempted to idolatry or how
01:42:42: God has been displaced in many instances we showed that this loyalty to God that an idol worshiper manifests we showed the painful consequences of covetousness and then how idolatry clouds your judgment there are things that you you you just can't see because you have invested so much in your idolatry we address the whole matter of the contempt for truth that is a that is right at the the feet of idolatry we're just the fact that there needs to be religious reformation to deal with idolatry because the idolatry is even in the church amen uh that is uh when it's in your own heart and mind and even in your own backyard that's when it's hardest to see it yes it is and uh what do you think are some practical steps that a person to do inventory if if you will on their way of life their way of thinking their thought process they may think that because of the fact that their theology they are certain is pure and biblical of course if it is pure they wouldn't they wouldn't think it is infallibly pure they if it is very close to what the scriptures teach at least and they seem to be in conformity with the the scriptures and the way that the great minds of christendom have exegeted those those teachings uh how can they delve deeper into a self -examination that might reveal idols that they are guilty of worshiping without knowing it is possible to affirm sound orthodox theology and yet be an idol worshiper you must ask yourself is that theology having an impact on you in focusing you on the true and living god or does it cause you to create another god like the god of your theological superiority which is really self uh self -focused that you you you you your theology causes you to look down your nose on somebody else if that's what it does for you you are an idol worshiper because your theology is supposed to make you bow your knee to the true and living god and serve others love even the people that reject your theology but if your theology causes you to look down on them and to think all those stupid people you know then you know that you are an idol worshiper one of the easiest ways for all of us not just religious people because every time a non -religious person works themselves to death at anything which is what people do they are exposing their own idolatry because in your idolatry you are actually working your way to salvation without the god of the bible and you can do that as a secular person or as a religious person with with your works -based religion both are burning the candle on both ends both are doing the same things and they end up in the same place the easiest way for everybody to examine themselves is to ask yourself what takes up most of my time wow what is it that i think about and talk about the most if it's not jesus christ that occupies your thoughts if he's not the subject of your conversation if he's not entering into every subject and every initiative and every action he is not your lord so if i am talking about baseball all the time i evangelize about baseball i try to get people come over to my side my team and my focus i arrange my schedule around baseball baseball is clearly your god it's not hard this is not difficult stuff this is easy this is easy stuff if your god is some form of entertainment where your whole life is arranged and adjusted to feed and worship and nurture that god if it's a vehicle where you're washing it all the time you're pampering it oh my goodness you hate the birds because they have to go and they may go over on your car i mean what is your focus what is it that preoccupies you listen we ought to pray without ceasing that means we never stop praying we never stop invoking god in everything of our lives god and lord jesus christ must be our focus continually if he isn't then something else is we have a substitute god a fake god a fake sovereign you see we can never be without a god we can never be without a sovereign and if the true and living god the true sovereign has been marginalized someone else takes his place a fake god a substitute god a substitute sovereign because we were made to bow so the question is what am i thinking about most of the time what am i focused on most of the time what do i talk about what do i what am i trying to sell what is it that i'm trying to sell because all of us are selling something what is it that i'm trying to sell what is it i'm trying to promote is it jesus christ is it his active and passive obedience as the only answer to humanity's problems the only way to salvation if that is not the case if we have anything it could be your family and i love families i have a great family all right it could be even our church wow are we talking more about our church than we're talking about the active and passive obedience of christ in other words nothing not even ourselves because we're talking a lot about ourselves too nothing must have the preeminence in our lives save the god of the bible our lord jesus christ amen uh let's see here bb in cumberland county pennsylvania wants to know how do we manage our anger and fury over false teachers such as word of faith pentecostals and others they're clear to be consciously deceiving people through charlatanry rather than just being deceived themselves how do we turn that into the attitude that you were just addressing well for one you need to examine yourself concerning your anger because anger is a god -given trait to tear things up we are to tear up things without tearing up people if we're tearing up people we're breaking the sixth commandment all right so we can't be tearing up people all right we we listen if you're not angry at certain things you're not saved you see i mean i mean god is angry at the wicked every day that's psalm number 7 verse 11 you know so certainly anger is not sin but anger that is focused on propping up a god for instance if you are looking down on the the prosperity preachers and the health wealth people and the all these positive confession people and all if you're looking down on them to the point that you can hate them then you are an idol worshiper we have to lovingly contend for the faith and don't ever look down on anybody because we were there such were some of us but for the intervention of god in our lives changing us bringing us out of the darkness into his marvelous light there must be prayer fervent prayer if evangelism is to be effective most of our evangelism is about talking to men about god but we need to talk to god about men first because he's the only one that can change their lives and open up their hearts removing the heart of stone and giving them a heart of flesh amen and i want to let our listeners those of you who are not aware of this but there are some word of faith pentecostals who have realized the wickedness of their teaching and the falsity of their teaching and have repented of it and some of them have even become reformed baptists and in fact my friend john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona is a reformed baptist now confessionally reformed and he is now even a cessationist and he used to not only be a word of faith pentecostal pastor he was a word of faith pentecostal talk show host on tbn television and uh costy hinn has become a friend of mine i've had him on this program and i look forward to having him back he is the nephew of benny hen was raised in word of faith uh name it and claim it prosperity gospel thinking and he was delivered from it and now a main uh emphasis of his ministry is to seek to refute publicly those false teachings he is also a reformed baptist in california and is on the pastoral team of a church out there so it's amazing yes amazing what god can do when he's ready to break down the idols yes amen and i want to make sure that before we go off the air that you have at least three minutes worth of time to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners without being interrupted i would just want everyone to know that our identity must be in christ alone we're saved by grace alone through faith alone in christ alone he must be the focus of our lives he must be our identity we must get our significance from him alone and we must get our security in him alone and we must challenge everything in our lives that rises and demands the preeminence this is the only antidote to the poison of idolatry christ must be the focus we must worship the true and living god so there must be repentance and we must not be afraid of it because well i know giving up our idols is not easy we have invested a lot and no one wants to walk away from the investment yes right uh if you're if you're invested in and pouring out your love and affection um for a man or for a woman you know um and so this person has an enormous control over you because if they should walk away you're shattered because you have all your life invested in this person people get left all the time you know and they fall apart they they want to jump out of windows or drink uh brake fluid or something the whole idea is if you're invested in christ you will never be let down you'll be lifted up you will find joy unspeakable and full of glory you are made for him you are made to mimic him you were made for god submit to christ alone and you will never be dancing idolatry amen well uh we do have time for at least one more listener we have let's see we have harrison in mechanicsburg pennsylvania who says what is the theological makeup of the religions in your area and how can we best pray for you i would say that it's not unlike what obtains here in america uh we we have almost everything there on the island of antigua there's a lot of nominal religion though a lot of the mainline churches are very liberal and uh some would even say i'm not a christian i'm an anglican i mean or or a methodist you know because they would identify those who say they are christians as evangelicals but i would not even want to suggest that an evangelical necessarily is a christian we need to examine people one -on -one to find out what their understanding of true christianity is christianity is not something that you can take up it's something that takes you up it's it's an invasion not a uh expedition of discovery no it's an invasion god chose us in in christ before the foundation of the world god the son came to pay the debt of our sin and god the holy spirit quickens and claims those whom the son has paid for and the father has chosen and in the fullness of time when the holy spirit grips our heart we because of the administration of word of god lives are changed and people are driven to repentance toward god and faith in our lord jesus christ this is how you know that you've been changed when necessity is laid upon you you have to hate your sin turn from your wicked ways and embrace christ without reservation trusting his atonement as the payment for your sin and obeying him to prove your love not to earn his love but to prove your love trust and obey so it's not an antinomian thing and this is how you prove that indeed the grace of god has visited you amen how can our listeners best pray for you pray for me that the lord will keep me focused on him because i am a man and i have been an idol worshiper even after the lord saved me i have had excursions in idolatry pray that the lord will and keep me on his message and to trust the efficacy of his free and sovereign grace amen and i know that you're one of your websites is baptistantiga .org
01:58:00: and that's spelt a n t i g u a baptistantiga .org