Same Sex Controversy part 3 of 3: Leviticus and the Application of the Holiness Code

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The clear wording of this passage makes it difficult for revisionists to limit its scope to narrow situations, so most pro homosex theologians try to argue that the Holiness Code does not apply to Christians. This does not work because of its context as moral law, its context that is applied to Gentiles in the text of Leviticus 18, and because these Leviticus prohibitions are the basis for Paul’s condemnation of homosexuality in writing to the church at Corinth. To answer a caller's question, Dr. White also responds to Dr. Seow of Princeton on homosexuality.

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It certainly is a book of Scripture that very few people are very familiar with today and yet it is a book of Scripture that the
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Lord Jesus cited from frequently and it is cited a number of times in the text of the
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New Testament and so you would think we would be more familiar with its background but since it's a part of that dreaded word, the law, it is generally ignored by most
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Christians today. When I refer to the book of Leviticus, it's certainly not at the top of the list of many people's favorite terms and many people's favorite books of the
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Bible. It is one of those difficult books to work through and because of the fact that people, well they look at it and there's unfamiliar material within it, there are
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Old Testament issues within it that people go, well, you know, I'm really not sure if I know the backgrounds here, this seems a little strange to me.
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I just like reading John a whole lot better than this and so it's given a cursory glance and we run away from it and yet in the book of Leviticus, two passages in Leviticus chapter 18 and Leviticus chapter 20, both make reference to the fact that in God's law, homosexuality is something that brings blood guiltiness.
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It is toevah, it is an abomination in God's sight and yet many revisionists today who seek to find a way to establish a
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Christian homosexuality, a means for Christians to engage in homosexuality, to seek to have a same -sex partner, etc.,
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etc. These revisionists very frequently do not even want to take the time to deal with Leviticus 18 and 20.
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They don't have to take the time to do so. They don't have to because very few evangelicals today are able to mount a meaningful defense for the relevance of any citation from a passage such as Leviticus or Deuteronomy.
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Why? Because so many evangelicals today have abandoned the idea that God's law has any relevance.
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Hey, what does it really matter? I mean, when you think about it, we're not under law, we're under grace and therefore since we're not under law, we're under grace, that means that God's law is irrelevant to us, that God's law has no meaning for us and we don't have to worry about that stuff.
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Besides that, there's a lot of weird stuff in books like Leviticus and stuff like that.
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There's stuff about not eating shellfish and hey, you know, one of my favorite TV programs, The West Wing, it had the president in The West Wing ripped on anyone who would cite
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Leviticus and so I don't want to cite Leviticus because I just love Hollywood and I think like Hollywood has taught me to think and I am now a moron, oh,
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I'm sorry, I was going a little bit too far there. Sadly, we are deeply influenced by that type of thinking and we are deeply influenced,
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I think many thousands of Christians who listened, for example, to The West Wing program where a person representing
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Dr. Laura Schlesinger was ridiculed by the president. Obviously as a result of that, our cause to think about it, our cause to go, well, how would
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I answer that, maybe I should keep my mouth closed, I don't want to experience this myself, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and therefore they want to sort of step back and not address this particular issue.
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What does Leviticus say and is it still relevant to us?
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Is the fact that there was a holiness code for the people of Israel that included things that quite honestly we just simply do not practice today, issues such as the wearing of clothes with mixed threads within them.
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We all wear clothes today that have mixed threads, all the various blends and things like that.
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Why is that relevant at all then? Why is it not true that the individuals who write books today and say
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Leviticus 18, Leviticus 20, only relevant to Jews, only relevant to the
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Jewish people in the land of Palestine, it's ancient stuff, it's not relevant anymore, and anyone who cites this is simply being an idiot for the fact that you're not consistent, you don't follow everything that's in the holiness code, the purity code, and therefore you're just being an old -fashioned bigot if you dare cite these passages as having anything to do whatsoever with homosexuality today.
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How do you respond? Sadly, most people responded by no longer citing these passages, by just simply ignoring that they exist and saying, yeah, well, that must be right,
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I mean, we just don't cite this stuff anymore, it's all the old covenant, it's no longer relevant to us, and yet we find the
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New Testament writers do cite these passages as being relevant, therefore we can hardly believe that the writers in the
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New Testament believed that the very substance of the Old Testament law was no longer relevant to either them, to human behavior, to the glory of God, or to anything else, for that matter.
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And so how are we to understand that? Well, we're going to take some time today to discuss that, to look at what
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Leviticus 18 and 20 says about the subject of homosexuality, and to take your phone calls as well at 866 -854 -6763.
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866 -854 -6763, I would invite you to take your
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Bible and consider well these things. You may find yourself in a situation of having to give an answer for the hope that's within you and for the answers that you give in regards to simple morality.
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Has God revealed how we are to live, or are we left simply without any type of compass to just simply be driven along by the winds of cultural taste?
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Our culture, of course, is very quickly embracing everything that is deviant and base and silly as if it is something that is good.
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I understand that the MTV Music Awards has yet again demonstrated that there is no distance too far to go to debase human life and human morality, that Hollywood has demonstrated yet once again that it hates
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God's law and will do everything it can to mock God's law. And so we live in that kind of society.
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We're going to be impacted by that. If we do not have a firm anchor in a revelation from God as to what is good and what is not good, then are we not just going to be doomed to be blown about by the wind and go here, there, and everywhere, and our next generation then will be saying things very, very differently than we do as to what is right and what is wrong and what is sin?
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And of course, once we get to the point of asking the question, what is sin, we are now talking about the very gospel itself and who we are going to proclaim that gospel to.
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Did Jesus Christ die upon the cross, taking in His body the penalty due to the sin of homosexuality for His elect people?
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Or did He not? Can a person be a homosexual and be in Christ and it not be a sinful thing?
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If we can't even define what sin is, then we're hardly in any decent position to proclaim the gospel with any level of clarity.
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And so these are important things. So I'd invite you to turn with me to Leviticus chapter 18, and my hope would be, of course, that that's not a book that you have to separate the pages on, unless you've got a new
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Bible. That's understandable. But if your Bibles are fairly older and you still have to separate the pages there, that might indicate that you're suffering from a common malady of many evangelicals in our land today, and that is having a small amount of being canonically challenged.
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That is, we attend much more to the last 27 books than the previous 39, ignoring the fact that the writers of the last 27, their
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Bible, their scriptures were those 39 books of the Old Testament, and they did believe that those books revealed to them the very
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Word of God. And in fact, Paul said that all scripture, not just some, not just the part in red or the part toward the end of the book, but all scripture is theanoustos, it is
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God breathed. So with that in mind, if we turn to Leviticus chapter 18, you discover that this chapter refers to the activities, specifically sexual activities, of the
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Jewish people and gives explicit guidelines as to how that activity is to be handled.
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And of course, they are primarily negative guidelines. That is, they provide boundaries.
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You shall not do this. You shall not do that. These are the relationships you shall not enter into.
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For example, verse 16, your brother's wife, your nakedness of your father's brother, you shall not approach his wife, she is your aunt.
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In other words, we have in Leviticus 18 very explicit discussion prohibiting any type of incestuous relationships.
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Then we also have the denial in verse 20 of the freedom that some people would seek to have to engage in sexual intercourse with their neighbor's wife.
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Then you have verse 21, you shall not give any of your offspring to offer them to Moloch, nor shall you profane the name of your
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God. I am the Lord. And then we have verse 22 that says, you shall not lie with a male as one lies the female.
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It is an abomination. And of course, here is the passage that immediately raises all of the questions.
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It is said here very clearly that you shall not lie with a male and Leviticus in the
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Greek Septuagint utilizes the term there, arsenos, and you might want to even write that down because it becomes very important.
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You shall not lie with a male as one lies the female. It is toeva, it is an abomination.
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The term when it talks in the Septuagint is a little bit more explicit in that it uses the very term coetane, from coete, bed, a marital relationship.
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And you might want to write down both arsenos and coete because that's going to become very important when we look at 1
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Corinthians 6, 9 and 1 Timothy 1, 10 in the discussion of a certain term that is used there.
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Just for your information, however, just so you're aware, in Leviticus 18, 22, in discussing homosexuality, you shall not lie with a male as one lies the female.
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It is abomination in the Greek Septuagint, which is the translation of the Bible the Apostle Paul utilized in writing to the churches because that would have been the translation that they would have had.
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The terms arsenos and coete occur right there in that particular passage that speaks of homosexuality.
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That becomes very important. You'll notice that immediately after verse 22, also you shall not have intercourse with any animal to be defiled with it, nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it.
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It is a perversion. So you have bestiality that is clearly an offense before God.
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It is a perversion of the created order. And then notice this. If you're taking notes, and if you're not, well, you should be.
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One of the most important things to note and one of the most important skills that you need to develop as a
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Christian, a Christian called upon to do apologetics for God's truth in our culture today is that you never, ever read just one verse.
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In fact, you don't just read the five verses around a verse. You read the whole chapter. You understand how it functions in the argument.
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And here is an important element of it because verses 24 and 25 say, do not defile yourselves by any of these things.
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So what are these things? All the things that came before bestiality, homosexuality, and the whole list that came before that.
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For by all these, the nations which I am casting out before you have become defiled.
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For the land has become defiled, therefore I have brought its punishment upon it so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.
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Now again, what's that about? What is the context here? Well, the context is the fact that the
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Jewish people are going to be taking the land of Canaan. And it is a common refrain in the
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Old Testament revelation that the Canaanites, those who had been in the land, had defiled themselves in God's sight.
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They had defiled the land. They had committed tremendous abominations. And that the utter destruction of these people, ordered by God, was a just destruction.
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That these are individuals who had committed every kind of possible offense in God's sight.
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These were not just people who were slightly evil. These were people who had gone to the farthest lengths of finding a way to express their utter depravity and rebellion against God.
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The land was defiled. The people were defiled. And sometimes people, well,
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I can't worship the God of the Old Testament. He told them to kill every man, woman, and child of these nations.
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These nations had engaged in every kind of depraved practice.
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They were diseased. They were offering their children in the fire to Moloch.
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They were involved in child sacrifice and homosexuality and bestiality and the whole nine yards.
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It was a horrific situation. God had basically taken his hand away from them and allowed them to descend into the very depths of depravity.
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Now, why do I emphasize this? Do I emphasize this? Oh, see, you're just picking on the homosexuals. That was one of many things.
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It was one of those things, which is toevat, an abomination. It was one of the reasons that judgment came upon these nations.
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That's true. And no nation that allows for that kind of practice, that coddles homosexuality, will long survive from God's judgment.
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There's no question about that. However, here's the issue. The single most common way around these passages by revisionists is very simple.
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This only has to do with the Jews. This only has to do with the holiness code of the
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Jews. Therefore, it's irrelevant to us. That also even comes into some of the ways that people used to get around the book of Romans, Romans chapter 1, by saying, ah, well, you know, all
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Paul's really talking about here is, you know, Paul's Jewish, and he couldn't get rid of his Judaism. And really, all he's saying here is relevant to the holiness code.
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And the holiness code is gone, and therefore, this really doesn't matter. But please note that this passage of Scripture in Leviticus 18, verses 24 to 25, is given to the people of Israel.
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It is not given to the people of Canaan at this particular point in time.
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In fact, God does not say, you know what, I'm giving you my law, and since no one really knew what my law was before, why don't you let...why
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don't you write these things down, and why don't you send some missionaries into the land of Canaan, and why don't you let them, you know, go around for a few years and proclaim to the people of Canaan that these things are wrong, that they shouldn't be engaged in bestiality, they shouldn't be engaged in homosexuality.
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Let me give them a little time to repent, and then we'll see if we're going to give you the land of Canaan. That's not what happens.
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Instead, it is very clear that God's judgment fell upon these people, even though they did not have an explicit statement given to them that these things are wrong.
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Now, how could that happen? Well, because the fact that they knew it was wrong, their conscience testified of the fact that these things were wrong.
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There is no person who has ever taken their child to be offered as a burnt sacrifice to Moloch that walked away with a clean conscience.
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That's not a possibility. And so, these things are not just for the
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Jews. The people of the lands, even before the giving of the law, had defiled themselves by engaging in bestiality, and incest, and homosexuality.
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It defiled the land, and it brought punishment. In verse 25, the land has become defiled, therefore
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I have brought its punishment upon it, so the land has spewed out its inhabitants.
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And so, when people say, ah, that Leviticus stuff, it's just for the
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Jews, that isn't even a meaningful reading of the text in its own context.
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That doesn't even make any sense when you just simply read more than three or four verses on either side of the statement that says that you shall not engage in homosexual behavior.
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A man shall not lie with a man as he lies with a female. It's not to happen. It is an abomination.
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And because the Canaanites did it, God's punishment came upon them, and the land spewed them out.
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That is simply what the text says. But that's not all it says, because you go to Leviticus chapter 20 now, and you discover that there is here punishments given if, in fact, these activities take place.
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For example, Leviticus chapter 20, verse 11, if there is a man who lies as this father's wife, he has uncovered his father's nakedness, both of them shall surely be put to death, their blood gildedness is upon them.
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Now, I think it's somewhat interesting to note that this passage is the basis of Paul's condemnation of the church at Corinth for having put up with someone who had done this.
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Paul evidently thought this was still an important thing. Paul hadn't just dumped the law out the back door and said, ah, it was just Moses, ah, that's just old covenant, let's just throw that out, not worry about it.
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There was no repetition of this up to the point of the time of Paul. There was no repetition of this in anything that had been given to the
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Corinthians. The Corinthians were to understand that this was an abomination in God's sight from what the Old Testament scriptures said.
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And so, they are to be put to death. This is a capital crime. Their blood gildedness is upon them.
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Verse 12, there is a man who lies as daughter -in -law, both of them shall surely be put to death. Since they have committed incest, their blood gildedness is upon them.
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And then verse 13, if there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act.
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They shall surely be put to death. Their blood gildedness is upon them.
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Now again, I think it is important to note that here in Leviticus 20 .13,
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we again have the word arsenos for male. Then we also have coete in the accusative form for the marital relationship or the sexual relationship.
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It is the term that eventually gives rise to our term coetus. It is very explicit.
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It is very clear. It is truly unquestionable as to what it means. And I asked you to note that before and I note that here again when the death penalty itself is announced within the nation of Israel on this issue of homosexuality, just like incest is to have the death penalty, etc.,
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etc., even verse 14, if there is a man who marries a woman and her mother, it is immorality.
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Both he and they shall be burned with fire, so there will be no immorality in your midst. Then verse 15, if there is a man who lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death.
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He shall also kill the animal. Verse 16, if there is a woman who approaches any animal to mate with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal.
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They shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them. Obviously connected directly with Leviticus 18, the same sins which the people are warned about Leviticus 18, here the penalties are prescribed for them in Leviticus chapter 20.
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And so we have the same words being used in verse 13 that we also had back in Leviticus 18, and that is going to become important because it is going to become a basis of understanding what the words mean when we get into the
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New Testament in 1 Corinthians 6 and 1 Timothy chapter 1. Now, a couple of things to point out.
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When people say, well, you know, there are all sorts of things that were said to be wrong in the
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Old Testament that we do not worry about today. There are lots of things that were said to be toevah, an abomination in God's sight, and some of those things you all do not worry about anymore.
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Some of those things just simply are not relevant anymore, and therefore this is one of the things that is not relevant.
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Well, if you take that perspective, then A, you are going to have to explain why
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God brought punishment upon the people of the land of Canaan because it would have been irrelevant to them too.
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So you have got an inconsistency here, and obviously most revisionists really do not believe God did any of the things the
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Old Testament says He did anyhow, so they really would not struggle with that one. They would say, well, I do not know that Israel went in there wreaking
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God's justice and havoc anyways. There is a very low view of Scripture for most of these revisionists anyways.
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But beyond that, if Leviticus 20 .13 is not relevant any longer, then is
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Leviticus 20 .12 is incest okay as well?
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How about Leviticus 20 .11? Does that mean that that form of incestuous relationship is okay as well?
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Because these revisionists will say things like, oh, Leviticus, it is not relevant, Jesus never mentioned these things.
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Well, Jesus never mentioned incest either, did He? Well, what about Leviticus 20 .15,
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bestiality, 20 .16, bestiality with a woman? Verse 15, a man.
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Verse 16, a woman. Does that mean it is okay too? Jesus certainly never mentioned that. In fact, there is nothing in the
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New Testament about it at all, is there? So does that mean it is okay? Logically and consistently, a person would have to say yes.
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A person would have to say yes, and there are those who do say yes. There are those who say, hey, as long as it does not detract from general societal happiness, as long as it does not hurt the person, then if it feels good, do it.
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It is okay. There are those who would say that. But many of the revisionists would struggle with such a statement because of the fact that they are operating within somewhat of a religious environment.
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And so if they are going to be consistent, then they are going to have to say that if Leviticus 20 .13 does not reveal to us something about God's character and how
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God has created us and what is good and what is bad in human sexual behavior, then neither does
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Leviticus 20 .15 and 16, and therefore bestiality is okay and incest is okay, and you might as well just go all the way down the line.
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And that is why we raise issues like pedophilia, having sex with children.
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Why isn't that wrong? Oh, well, that might hurt somebody. Now you see the absolutely arbitrary nature of an ethical system where revisionists have now ripped out the heart of God's law, and basically they've gagged
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God. If they will not read these passages in their context and put a little thought into thinking, they have gagged
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God. They have said God cannot speak to what is right and wrong in human sexual behavior or in any other element of human experience.
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Many others will say, well, obviously back at the time of the writing of this, Moses, and of course
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I can't think of a single revisionist that would actually think Moses had anything to do with this, but the people at the time of the revision of this material into its current form knew nothing about inversion.
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They knew nothing about loving, monogamous, homosexual relationships, and so this just simply can't be relevant today because it's based on too much ignorance.
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In other words, it's not truly the Word of God. It's not what Jesus thought it was. It's not what the apostles thought it was.
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And therefore, it should not be given any status to speak to the issue.
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And in essence, Christians, again, are left without anything to say to what is right and wrong in the behavioral area at all.
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It's very clear that if 2013 refers to homosexuality and it remains a revelation of God's moral law, that then the whole issue of monogamous, loving, homosexual relationships is irrelevant, utterly irrelevant, because it absolutely denies the propriety of the behavior itself.
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If there is a man who lies to a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them, both of them have committed a detestable act, they shall surely be put to death.
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That means it is a serious offense. It corrupts the people of Israel, and folks, it corrupts our society as well.
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866 -854 -6763 is the number if you'd like to become involved in the discussion today, 866 -854 -6763.
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We'll be right back. What is
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Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book, Chosen But Free? A New Cult? Secularism?
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False Prophecy Scenarios? No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called
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Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.
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In his book, The Potter's Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, but The Potter's Freedom is much more than just a reply.
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It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed, it is a defense of the very gospel itself.
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In a style both scholars and laymen can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme
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Calvinism, defines what the Reformed faith actually is, and concludes that the gospel preached by the
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Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture. The Potter's Freedom, a defense of the
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Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free by James White. You'll find it in the
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.org. More than any time in the past, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals are working together.
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They are standing shoulder to shoulder against social evils, they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements, and many
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This newfound rapport has caused many Evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age -old disagreements that have divided
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Hello. Oh, there I am. I was trying to talk, but someone didn't want me to talk. Welcome back to The Dividing Line.
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My name is James White. I don't, I don't see that anyone wishes to chat about this subject today, but be that as it may,
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I'd like to at least finish it off so those listening by archive can have the information that is available there to folks.
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And of course, I've got to just mention in passing, good old Jimmy Jo Jay is back and he's messaging me right now.
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And I just updated the information on Jimmy Jo Jay on our website, those of you who haven't yet, aomin .org
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slash jimmyjojsaga .html. Just go to the Roman Catholic section and it's a link down at the bottom.
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Had a little discussion with him and, uh, uh, uh, uh, what a maroon, maroon.
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Isn't that one of the terms that they use, uh, uh, in the, uh, uh, the cartoons.
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That's right. Cartoons. Isn't that what, uh, not Daffy Duck. What's his name? Oh, the rabbit guy. Who's the rabbit guy?
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I'm just, I'm just gonna sit here and wait. Bugs Bunny. Thank you very much. That's what Bugs Bunny. Uh, what a maroon.
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In fact, that's probably, I think we have that sound in the chat channel somewhere about being a maroon. Anyways, I don't have time to play with, uh, with, uh,
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Jimmy Jo Jay. Those of you who'd like to, uh, look at, uh, his, uh, interesting assertions and, uh, circular reasoning.
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As I said, we updated that file and it's, uh, on the website if you'd like to take a look at it. Now, uh, we continue on looking at this issue.
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We've looked at Leviticus 18, Leviticus 20, and, uh, we have considered well the context of both passages, which of course is a context that you need to, uh, be looking at when you present these things and, uh, be able to explain it, be able to explain it clearly, be able to respond to, uh, what is most often surface level objections to the conclusions you're presenting.
34:16
Uh, people frequently freak out, shall we say, when someone provides even the smallest, uh, objection, uh, to their position and, uh, if, if you freak out, it's because you haven't spent the requisite time thinking through, uh, what the issues are.
34:33
We have seen Leviticus 18 and 20 clearly prohibits homosexual behavior. Uh, we saw that Paul did the same thing in Romans chapter one, that he was very clear.
34:44
Now if you'll turn to the New Testament, to First Corinthians chapter six, uh, here you have a passage where, uh, the
34:55
Apostle Paul is, uh, dealing, uh, with the church at Corinth, which obviously had some real problems and there was some real difficulty going on in the church.
35:08
There was, uh, uh, in essence, a tremendous amount of, of ethical misbehavior.
35:15
There was immorality, uh, in the church. There was immorality of every kind. It wasn't just sexual immorality, but there was also, uh, backbiting and fighting and, and lawsuits going back and forth and, uh, just a whole lot of non -Christian behavior taking place, uh, in the church at Corinth.
35:33
And so in the context of discussing this, uh, Paul says in First Corinthians 6, 9,
36:02
Such were some of you, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the
36:09
Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God. Then right afterwards,
36:16
Paul says, all things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
36:26
And so he's talking about this issue of freedom and he's talking about the fact that there is a balance in the
36:31
Christian life, uh, that while we are not bound to perform certain acts to gain
36:39
God's favor, yet it does not mean that unrighteousness should be something that is named amongst the saints.
36:47
And so he asks the Corinthians, do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
36:55
And he warns us of deception, that there will be those who would seek to deceive us.
37:02
And he says, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers.
37:08
Now what, what's fornication, idolatry, and adultery? Are these sins? Yes, they are sins.
37:15
Let's skip over the next two and go to thieves, covetousness, drunkards, revilers, swindlers.
37:25
What are those? Well, again, we recognize these are sins as well. Thievery is a sin.
37:33
You shall not steal. You shall not covet. Drunkenness is identified in the
37:39
Old Testament as a sin, a lack of self -control. Those who revile authorities above them, whether that be
37:45
God or governmental authorities. Swindlers, that's a subcategory of those who steal.
37:53
Paul lists these and says, none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. But, then he says in verse 11, such were some of you, past tense.
38:07
But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and the
38:13
Spirit of our God. There was a break. There was a change. There was a radical departure.
38:20
Verse 9 and 10 describes the past life of some of the
38:26
Corinthians. Not all. Not all of the Corinthian believers had been involved in every single one of these types of activities.
38:36
But, some had. Some had experienced the forgiveness of God.
38:44
They had experienced that radical work of regeneration. But Paul says they are no longer that.
38:53
He does not say such are some of you. There were no people who were practicing fornication.
39:02
And there can be no people who are practicing fornication within the congregation.
39:09
You do not have Christian fornicators. You do not have Christian idolaters.
39:16
You do not have Christian adulterers. There is no such thing as Christian thievery, Christian covetousness,
39:23
Christian drunkenness, Christian reviling, Christian swindling. Those are all oxymorons.
39:32
Those people do not inherit the kingdom of God and therefore to say, well, we can add the name
39:38
Christian to this and say, well, you know, let's look at the word adulterers. God made me this way.
39:47
You know, I just, it is a part of the way that God made me.
39:53
We just need to come to understand that Paul didn't know about individuals who would have my proclivities and my desires.
40:03
He didn't understand hormones. He didn't understand how some people, you know, can have glands that produce more hormones than others.
40:13
So we can't take something that was written 2 ,000 years ago and make it normative for me today.
40:18
I want to be able to love Jesus, but also have my multiple sexual partners.
40:24
And they're all women. I'm not a homosexual. That's what people might say. And how would the revisionist, the homosexual revisionist respond?
40:35
Upon what basis could they possibly place a response, a negative response to such an argument?
40:45
What about idolaters? Oh, I just, I have so much worship to give.
40:51
I can't just give it in one place. There's a lot of people who say that drunkenness, well, there's a genetic predisposition toward it.
41:01
You can't blame me for that. Well, maybe there is. But the word still says that you are to keep yourself in self -control.
41:11
Covetousness, oh, I just, I just can't help myself. I'm a Christian coveter.
41:17
You see, some people might say, well, are you saying you've never coveted anything? That's the immediate response you'll get.
41:24
Oh, you self -righteous person. You see, these are people who practice these things. These are people who practice fornication and practice idolatry and practice adultery are marked by covetousness or thievery.
41:39
We're not talking about the fact that Christians can experience sin, but one thing we are talking about is that every single one of these terms in 1
41:48
Corinthians 6, 9 through 10 is in reference to sin, something that Christians are to avoid and to hate.
42:00
And so we come to those two words at the end of 1 Corinthians 6, 9, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals.
42:08
And all sorts of assertions are made immediately. Well, really, you know, if we take the time to look at the original languages, we discover that the one, well, again, how many different excuses come up on this one?
42:25
It's hard to count all of them. Some will say that, well, the two terms here, the two terms that are found here, effeminates in the
42:34
American Standard is translating malakoi. Malakoi, the singular is malakos.
42:44
And the term that is translated homosexuals is rendering the word arsenikoitai and in the singular arsenikoites.
42:57
And they will say, well, you see, this is the, this is actually two things you put together.
43:03
This is, this, these two words together refer to those who would go to male prostitutes and engage in homosexual acts in the context of prostitution.
43:17
And the malakoi would be the male prostitute who is the soft person, the sexual partner who basically takes the female role.
43:31
And the arsenikoites would be the masculine one.
43:37
Or others would say that this is just simply the two partners together that put together and we really shouldn't separate them out or whatever it might be that only has to do with either male homosexual prostitution or just male prostitution in total, that these are men who have, have illicit sex with women as male prostitutes.
43:58
Maybe sometimes as in a homosexual sense or sometimes in a heterosexual sense or sometimes both or whatever it might be.
44:05
That is one argument that is, that is put together. Again, you'll always find the, well, this is irrelevant because Paul didn't know about what we know about today argument, which really goes back to the very authority of scripture and not really much to anything else, though there is historical information that can be used to refute that argument because Paul would have been familiar with almost any element of the modern homosexual movement as far as inversion and mutuality and monogamous relationships and all the rest of that stuff as well.
44:40
But the key issue is, attack the translation of the word arsenikoite as homosexual.
45:01
When I debated Barry Lynn on this subject, he said there were 15 different translations that rendered it in 15 different ways and so we just don't know.
45:09
And how can you truly question the genuine Christian experience of someone based upon a word that we, has 15 different translations and we just don't know what it means.
45:20
So really the issue here and the issue, we might as well go ahead and tie them both together if you just keep your finger there and look over at 1
45:28
Timothy 1, verse 10, where Paul actually just back up to verse 9, realizing the fact that the law is not made for a righteous person but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching.
45:52
The term that is used here in 1
45:57
Timothy 1, 10 is also the same word arsenikoites that we have in 1
46:05
Corinthians 6, 9. And so generally you deal with both these passages together because the real issue is what does arsenikoites mean?
46:16
And most of the responses to the one passage will be relevant to the other as well.
46:22
So that's why we sort of tie them together. What does arsenikoites mean?
46:30
Well one of the things that is very interesting to note that revisionists will raise is the fact that arsenikoites, as far as we can tell, does not appear in extant
46:46
Greek literature prior to Paul's use. And much will be made of this by revisionists, but in reality all it points us to is the seeming conclusion that the term itself is coined by Paul.
47:07
He is the first one that we know of who is using it. He is the first one that we know of who is placing it within this context.
47:17
And so the question immediately would be, where did
47:22
Paul get this? What is his, what is the origin of arsenikoites?
47:32
Well some of you already have already recognized where I'm going with this because if you were listening earlier, if your connection was good enough to have caught the earlier part of the program or you're listening on the archive, you know that I specifically made mention of the fact that back in Leviticus, in the
47:55
Greek Septuagint, two terms appear in both
48:02
Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20 in regards to homosexuality.
48:08
They were arsenos, and what was the other? Well you've already figured it out, koites, koite, koite.
48:21
The two terms that are transparently put together to make the term arsenikoites.
48:31
Now my co -author on the book we're working on right now, Jeff Neal and I, we, a number of months back, and this was actually last year,
48:44
I think it was last year, yeah it was last year. It was in the year 2000, I think it was early on in the year 2000.
48:52
Had the opportunity of engaging two homosexuals in debate in studio on KPXQ in Phoenix.
48:59
It is certainly one of the programs that I wish we had.
49:07
It is certainly one of those situations where if we had had any of the radio programs I've done in the past, this would be one of them
49:12
I wanted and it's the one we don't have. Somehow the taping of it got all messed up and we don't have it and it would have been extremely useful.
49:22
But anyways, in the course of this dialogue in studio, they were in studio, so are we, it was a fascinating conversation.
49:32
Tremendous number of phone calls, very fast -paced, very sort of in -your -face type of a situation.
49:39
Didn't go very well for the homosexual side. The Lord was very merciful. I'd had a horrible, the worst migraine headache of my entire life that day.
49:48
Just absolutely debilitating. But by the time we got to the station, I was in good shape.
49:53
I was functioning properly and so at one point, this issue came up and of course, the homosexual pastor specifically said, well, you know, the term just means a man of many beds.
50:12
A man of many beds. This is just simply a man who engages in a lot of sexual activity.
50:19
And Jeff Neal responded to that assertion, actually the term is transparent in its meaning and it comes from the two terms arsenos, male, and coitus, which we get coitus, and it refers to what men do with men in bed and that ain't eating crackers.
50:39
That was exactly how he put it. And all I remember was the other side was somewhat taken aback by that particular response.
50:51
But it was very obvious they had never really done much original work on this particular subject because Jeff and I were sitting there with the
51:00
Nessie Allen 27th edition and Biblia Hebraica Stutgartensia and they had the NIV version of the Bible.
51:05
That was all they had brought with them, though the pastor felt he could just throw Greek out.
51:11
Evidently, it had worked for him many times. It didn't work for us and sort of backfired on him.
51:17
And that was the last time that we've ever heard from that particular individual, even though I believe that that is the individual who ordained the former chaplain of the
51:26
Arizona legislature when he came out and said that he was a homosexual. I think it's the same individual, the same church involved with that particular situation.
51:35
But anyways, arsenic coitus does mean that which men do with men in bed.
51:43
It is most clearly the very term homosexual that people say isn't there.
51:51
And when you ask where would Paul get this from, he got it from Leviticus 18 and 20.
51:58
He puts together those two terms directly from God's law, Leviticus 18 and 20, to identify the very activity that people are trying to say is, in fact, consistent with Christian behavior today.
52:16
And yet in both of these passages, the very term homosexual, a person who engages in sexual relationship with another man, is what we are looking at in both passages say that God's law condemns it,
52:34
God's law brings conviction concerning that. And so a person who can say that, well,
52:40
I think it's just fine, I experience no conviction at all. The people in Corinth, there were saved homosexuals in Corinth.
52:50
There were men, and there may have been women as well, who had engaged in that activity, who had burned in their lust one for another, and yet God had changed them.
53:04
God had changed them. And so that is the message that we have for people today.
53:09
I honestly, however, would say that people, people who say that we are being unloving, people who say that we are in some way, shape, or form just being condemnatory, they need to recognize that by stripping the
53:34
Bible of its clear teaching, by stripping the Bible of its ability to define sin, they are the ones who are showing the greatest hatred for their fellow man.
53:50
And the reason I say that is very simple. If you kick that guy out of the channel
53:57
ASAP, in fact I've, boom, good, thank you.
54:07
Thank you very much. People are, there you go, there's a little evidence of total depravity in the channel today.
54:19
People who say we are being unloving to define sin are the ones who, in fact, are showing tremendous hatred.
54:26
You cannot call people to repentance when you remove from them the clarity of God's word concerning what sin is.
54:43
When you do not allow the word to speak clearly so as to define for people what sin is, then they are left in the dark about their sin, and they will not look for a
55:05
Savior. Those who want to just simply allow homosexuals to go on and name the name of Jesus without recognizing that He was the sin bearer are in reality not only mocking the cross of Christ, but they are showing the greatest hatred toward those who are engaged in this sin.
55:38
But, of course, that's what our society is all about. Our society does not believe in sin, does not believe in the call for repentance, does not believe that we can even know what truth is for that matter, therefore we should hardly be surprised that there are those who continue to press this very day for the use of the very laws of our land to curtail our freedom to say what we're saying right now.
56:13
And they will masquerade under the idea of love and inclusivity and all the rest of stuff.
56:28
It's simply the application of the depravity of our society in countering the law of God.
56:36
And it's an ugly thing to see. 866 -854 -6763. If you get online, we'll be right back.
56:54
Is the Mormon my brother? Bethany House Publishers presents James White's book, Is the Mormon My Brother?
57:00
In television campaigns, parachurch events, and clergy fellowships all across the United States, Mormons are presenting themselves as mainstream
57:08
Christians. Is it unloving or backward to say they aren't real Christians? In contrast to Christian monotheism, the belief in one
57:15
God, Mormonism teaches that God was once a man who lived on another planet and was exalted to the status of God, and that Mormon men can also become gods upon death and resurrection.
57:27
In his book, Is the Mormon My Brother?, James White demonstrates how this fact alone means Mormons and Christians are irreconcilably at odds at faith's most basic level.
57:37
Is the Mormon My Brother? is now available from Alpha and Omega Ministries' book ministry. You can order
57:42
Is the Mormon My Brother? from our website at www .aomin
57:47
.org. The Conference on Rome. Over 13 hours examining major doctrines and issues that separate
57:53
Roman Catholicism from biblical Christianity, featuring the leading Protestant apologists on Rome and America today.
58:00
Listen to Dr. Eric Svensson's presentation, Rome Has Spoken, The Matter Is Debatable. When the
58:05
Roman Catholic apologists insist that the principle of sola scriptura has resulted in over 25 ,000 denominations, we should in turn insist that the principle of scripture plus an infallible interpreter has resulted in an even greater number of religious cults.
58:20
Pastor Rob Zins addresses the evangelical romance with Rome. There was not a Roman Catholic church in the first five centuries.
58:27
There was to be sure a Catholic church, but this is the universal designation of the body of Christ.
58:34
It is not Romanism. Pastor David King, the impact of Romans 117 on Martin Luther.
58:39
How is one himself to have that righteousness which God requires, yea demands, and which is utterly indispensable to salvation?
58:52
It is by faith, and by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and we lay hold of the
58:59
Lord Jesus by faith alone. And Dr. James White examines the veneration of saints and images.
59:07
Do you think if such a person were brought before Moses, having just been caught bowing down before a statue and lighting candles and rocking back and forth in prayer, do you think
59:18
Moses would have accepted the excuse, I wasn't giving Latria, Moses, I was only giving
59:23
Julia. Other topics addressed in this tape series, is there something about Mary? Scripture sufficiency, the
59:28
Roman versus Protestant view, canonizing the Apocrypha, an assault on scripture, Rome's sacraments, an assault on Christ's gospel, and purgatory, an assault on Christ's perfect atonement.
59:39
Look for this tape series and many others at AOMIN .org, that's A -O -M -I -N dot
59:45
O -R -G, The Conference on Rome. Welcome back to Dividing Line, let's go ahead and start taking our callers now, and let's talk with one of our regulars quickly, let's talk with Johnny in California.
01:00:03
Hi Johnny. Hey James, how you doing? Doing pretty good. Good. My question is about a friend of mine who works with me,
01:00:12
I work for In -N -Out Burger, and my friend, he was going to the
01:00:18
United Pentecostal Church, and since has gone to another church, which is also one, but it's apostolic,
01:00:25
I guess the only difference that they have that I know of is the veil. Oh, okay, yeah, the veil, you mean the women wear a veil?
01:00:33
Yeah, I believe that that's the only difference they have. Yeah, most churches that I know of that have apostolic in the name are modalistic, oneness type churches.
01:00:41
Anyways, yes sir? My friend, the thing is, he's a homosexual, and I don't know, because it's very obvious in him, you see him the way he talks and acts, you can tell, and I'm pretty sure that the people in the church that have seen him, because when he was at the
01:01:03
United Pentecostal Church, they had him as part of the choir, at least for a brief time, until he decided to stop, and I was just wondering to myself if they allow this kind of thing.
01:01:16
Well, you know, I don't really know how to answer that other than I would be very surprised if they did, because most
01:01:24
UPC -type churches are quite simply very legalistic, very strongly legalistic, and frequently have very strict dress codes and behavior codes, and many of them you can't swim in the same pool with a female, or if you're a male that is, etc.
01:01:49
So it would seem to me that that would be highly inconsistent.
01:01:57
Obviously we don't know what he told them, or if they just figured he was just, you know, behaved strangely but wasn't really involved in that kind of thing,
01:02:05
I don't know. But it would not strike me that that would be something that they would actually believe was acceptable or would accept within the fellowship unless he said that he was reforming his behavior, he wasn't engaged in that type of behavior, he was repentant of it, or, you know, etc.
01:02:25
etc. I don't know. I don't know. Don't know how to answer that one. I've stopped you.
01:02:30
Well, I mean, you'd have to ask them. I mean, you're asking me what would they think, and as far as I can tell,
01:02:38
I can't see any reason why they would accept that kind of behavior at all. So what his situation was,
01:02:45
I have no idea. The people that are there, see, the ones that go to the
01:02:51
UPC church that's a few blocks from my house, there's about three or four people that have either worked or are working at Inalberta with me, you know, and they all know, see, the guy, my friend that I'm telling you about has a history.
01:03:10
He used to live a very worldly kind of life. What does he, does he say, does he say it's wrong now?
01:03:20
Well, I've actually never picked up the guts to really chat with him about it. Well, my feeling would be that maybe he's trying to change and they're trying to help him to change or whatever.
01:03:32
I just don't know. You'd have to, have to ask them. I don't, not something that I'd be able to know one way or the other.
01:03:39
Okey dokey. Okay. Hey, sometime I'll have to, actually the only In -N -Out burger I've been to is the one up in Mill Valley near Golden Gate Seminary.
01:03:47
And I was up there, I only went up there once this last summer and I'm sorry,
01:03:55
I just don't get it. I give me a quarter pound of a cheese any day. I'm sorry.
01:04:01
I just, I don't understand it. I mean, anyways, but I'm glad that they like them because that gives you a job.
01:04:08
So that's the important thing. Well, if you're ever in town, I work at the Wooden Centipede Springs. Okay.
01:04:13
Well, do you have a drive -thru? Yes, we, oh yeah. See the one, the one we were at, I went to didn't have a drive -thru, which
01:04:19
I thought was really goofy, but. Well, the problem with In -N -Out burger is, and I know this problem myself, is just that we have very long lines.
01:04:27
Oh yes. Oh yeah. Every time I walked in there, I had to wait forever and a day. So yeah. And the thing is, we have these long lines and the food sometimes can take some time to get it to the customer because the thing is everything's fresh.
01:04:41
I mean, literally, I mean, I'm the, I'm the guy that peels the potatoes in the morning. Oh, okay. Well, uh,
01:04:46
I'm, I'm, I'm not saying it isn't fresh. I just, I, I just haven't figured it out.
01:04:51
I haven't, you know, figured out what the big rage is because they've, I think they've opened some here in Phoenix and it's just like, ah, you know, uh, but right now
01:04:58
I'm being told that we're gonna have to bill your boss, uh, for this free advertising. So I guess we should move on to other subjects, but, uh, anyways, thanks for calling today, sir.
01:05:07
All right. God bless. God bless. God bless.
01:05:37
God bless. God bless. Um, do you see more, um, cases of people claiming to be homosexuals within the image of a community?
01:05:44
Is this part of the reason why you feel compelled to respond to it or just kind of filling it out? Do you see this as a trend more and more coming out in, um, in the image of a community?
01:05:54
Yeah, there certainly is. I mean, uh, uh, the, uh, and my headphones have just totally changed how they sound.
01:06:00
I just descended into a well. I'm not sure what that was, but anyways, somebody's playing, uh, in the other room and, uh, they, uh, anyways.
01:06:08
Um, yes, there is, I mean, there are just, uh, just tremendous numbers of, uh, books coming out, uh, that, uh, attempt to present this revisionist perspective.
01:06:20
Uh, I have, for example, a, uh, a book, I have many books on my shelf now on this particular subject, but one from, uh, the, uh, staff of Princeton Seminary.
01:06:31
And about half of the, the staff, uh, holds a biblical line and half the staff says, look, we need to listen to these people and their experience and the genuineness of it and so on and so forth.
01:06:43
And, uh, within an evangelical, uh, spectrum that has, uh, abandoned objective truth and has listened to the world and, uh, while continuing to proclaim
01:06:54
Christ does so in a very subjective, emotional filled way, uh, this kind of pleading and this kind of writing is extremely, uh, effective and it is having a tremendous effect.
01:07:08
One of the things that specifically, um, uh, led to this particular book was a particular individual in England, a pastor of a church, a
01:07:19
Baptist church in England, uh, Roy Clements, um, leaving his wife, leaving the pastorate.
01:07:25
He was probably the, one of the leading evangelical voices in England and, uh, moving in with his, uh, homosexual, uh, significant other and leaving his family.
01:07:36
And, uh, the, the tremendous result of that, uh, the damaging result of that, uh, in, uh, in the church in England and in, in the evangelical church, uh, in total.
01:07:50
So yeah, I do see that happening. I do see much more of an acceptance of it. And, uh, unfortunately much of the response that evangelicals offer when they do recognize it's wrong is not an informed response because of a low view of, of God's ability to tell us what's right and wrong in the first place.
01:08:09
Uh, and due to the fact that I, even myself, I had never seen a, um, a meaningful response, uh, a meaningful presentation on this particular subject outside of Greg Bonson's book.
01:08:24
And so I, I wouldn't have been able to really be as clear as I could or should be in forming a response to it, uh, myself.
01:08:34
So, uh, that's, yeah, that's, that's really what has motivated it. So I do see that happening very much so.
01:08:40
Okay, so, and, uh, is the CRC going that way too?
01:08:46
Like I know the CRC, the Christian Reform Church, um, they had some panel discussion, I'm not sure, but my impression was they're not really doing an exegesis of those texts that deal with that topic.
01:08:56
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, I don't want to like give an ad hominem towards the CRC, but do you see that as a trend there too as well or?
01:09:03
Yes, well, not only that, but you also have the PCUSA, uh, which for a long time, uh, had been, uh, playing with the, uh, idea of, uh, allowing, uh, not only blessing homosexual marriages, but, but now discussing the ordination of homosexuals and, and, uh, all these things.
01:09:23
And generally, and I don't know what the situation in the CRC is right now personally, but, uh,
01:09:29
I do know that there are many denominations that once, uh, the biblical line has been erased or at least allowed to be redefined, uh, then the, the result of that inevitably will be a decline in, uh, the force of the exegesis of Scripture.
01:09:48
And, uh, I think a classic example of this, if you want, I think a really good example is because a lot of, especially conservative evangelicals sort of think along the lines of, well, if you know how to do exegesis, if you know the original languages, then you won't fall for this type of thing.
01:10:05
That's not true. Uh, you can know the original languages, uh, better than, uh, than a conservative does.
01:10:11
But if you do not have the commensurate dedication to the authority of those scriptures, uh, that then your knowledge of it means nothing, in fact, can only become something that's dangerous.
01:10:24
I think one of the biggest examples of this is for a number of years, I would use the
01:10:30
Hebrew grammar, uh, of C -L -C -L, uh, S -E -O -W, uh, as the grammar that I would teach
01:10:38
Hebrew with. And, uh, uh, hence I was very interested when
01:10:43
I encountered a book. It was the book I mentioned earlier from the faculty of Princeton Seminary where he teaches.
01:10:48
And when I obtained the book, I read his, uh, uh, article and found it just, just horrible.
01:10:57
Uh, the way that he dealt with Leviticus, the way he dealt with Genesis was extremely surface level, did not take into account anything that, that, almost anything at all that we've discussed here.
01:11:07
Uh, as well as Romans 1, he, he basically fell for all of the standard lines, but that wasn't the part that really bothered me the most.
01:11:17
Uh, the part that really bothered me the most was where he talked about why we needed to listen, uh, to the, uh, the genuineness of what people were saying.
01:11:29
I'm, I'm, if I sound a little bit different to you, it's because I'm looking here and seeing if I can see where the book is and if it is within a range of my grabbing it, because I could, uh,
01:11:42
I could, uh, read it to you. Unfortunately, uh, my eyesight isn't all that good here.
01:11:49
Hand me that stack right, does the middle stack. Let's see if I can find it hiding in there someplace.
01:11:55
Uh, yep, there it is. Thank you, sir. It's called a heterosexual perspective.
01:12:04
This is on page 24. This is Chun -Liang Xiao, who is the professor of Hebrew there at, uh, uh,
01:12:12
Princeton Seminary. Let's see.
01:12:18
Okay. Some personal observations. The sage has recognized that neither human observation nor experiences can be absolutely reliable.
01:12:25
There are some risks when one turns to them, yet it is necessary for people to live with risks.
01:12:31
We have no choice in the matter, for there are still many things in creation that are not revealed to us. God is in holy other, but we are mere mortals.
01:12:39
We cannot be too sure that we know the ways of God. We take the risks because we are human.
01:12:45
Like the sages who gave us the wisdom tradition, we live knowing that what we see and experience often contradicts what we have always thought to be true.
01:12:54
Since the wisdom literature points us beyond text to consider observation and experience, I want to conclude by telling of my own experience.
01:13:01
I used to believe that divorce is wrong under any circumstance, simply because that is what the scriptures teach. I could, and still can, quote chapter and verse in the
01:13:08
Bible, particularly the words of Jesus. I have since learned from friends and loved ones what horrible traps bad marriages can be.
01:13:15
People suffer enormously. Some people even kill themselves because of bad marriages that they cannot otherwise escape.
01:13:20
Some people suffer psych, uh, physical abuse in such marriages. Some are even killed. Unlike the friends of Job, I am not willing to uphold dogma at all costs, certainly not when
01:13:29
I know that people are suffering and dying. I have gone back to reread the scriptures, and I have heard the gospel anew.
01:13:36
I used, I have, I also used to believe that homosexual acts are always wrong. Listening to gay and lesbian students and friends, however,
01:13:44
I have had to rethink my position and reread the scriptures. Seeing how gay and lesbian people suffer discrimination, face the rejection of family and friends, risk losing their jobs, and live in fear of being humiliated and bashed,
01:13:58
I cannot see how anyone would prefer to live that way. I do not understand it at all, but I am persuaded that it is not a matter of choice.
01:14:05
Seeing how some gay and lesbian couples relate to one another in loving partnerships, observing how much joy they find in one another, and seeing that some of them are better parents than most of us will ever be,
01:14:16
I have reconsidered my views. I was wrong. From the testimony of homosexual persons and from various reports,
01:14:22
I have learned that there is an extraordinarily high rate of suicide among homosexual persons. People are dying every day because of society's attitudes, indeed, because of the church's stance.
01:14:33
Many people hate themselves because of what society and the church say about them. I know of many homosexual persons in the ministry who have been very effective for the cause of Jesus Christ, but they suffer tremendous guilt because they have to keep their secret from the church they love dearly.
01:14:47
I have met many students here at Princeton Seminary who have a strong sense of the call to ministry and all the obvious gifts for it, but they cannot obey their call because of who they are.
01:14:56
They are hurt by the church. I cannot believe that we are called to perpetuate such pain and suffering in the world.
01:15:02
I am compelled now to trust my observations and experience. For me, there is nothing less than the gospel at stake.
01:15:11
I have no choice but to take the testimonies of gays and lesbians seriously. I do so with some comfort, however, for the scriptures themselves give me the warrant to trust that human beings can know truths apart from divine revelation."
01:15:26
End quote. I hope that my listeners could hear what was being said there, because it is absolutely chilling.
01:15:41
It is absolutely, positively chilling to hear what was said there.
01:15:49
I'm sorry, I can't hear you right now. Could you speak up a little bit? It's just like what Carney was saying, their knowledge that they're made in the image of God, and they have to presuppose the truth of Christianity, or they extract that truth from Christianity to understand what justice is, or what love is.
01:16:11
So I think there's an example of that right there, and also that he's rebelling against the supremacy of scripture in his reasoning at large.
01:16:19
So there's a lot of truth to what Benfield was saying there, and we're seeing it come to fruition in that statement. Yeah, I definitely want to make sure that I include a full response to that particular section of the discussion by Seau in the book, because that's one of the most important elements from my perspective.
01:16:38
Here we have the words of a
01:16:44
Hebrew scholar, a person who deals with the text. He can read
01:16:49
Leviticus 18 and read Leviticus 20 in its original tongue without the using of any lexical aids or anything else.
01:16:58
But that ability does not change the fact that—and the last words were the important ones—I do so with some comfort, however, with the scriptures themselves give me the warrant to trust that human beings can know truths apart from divine revelation.
01:17:14
That, to me, is a confession on his part. That this is extra -biblical.
01:17:21
This is outside of the realm of scripture itself. Of course, when he talks about the cause of Christ, what's the cause of Christ?
01:17:31
I mean, there is no way to even define the gospel anymore. Yeah, well, what is the gospel? And there's no way to define it any longer.
01:17:45
Much of liberalism no longer speaks the gospel in the sense of redemption from sin anyways.
01:17:51
Liberalism can only speak of the gospel in the sense of making you the best person you can be.
01:17:57
And that's really what is being talked about here. The problem is, evangelicals who hear this hear
01:18:03
Princeton, they hear scholar, they hear Hebrew scholar, and therefore they don't hear the absolute denial of the
01:18:12
Christian worldview that is at the very heart of this. And that's why I think many denominations are cowered by the idea of the scholar who comes along and says, well, this is the way it needs to be, and this is the truth of this, and so on and so forth.
01:18:30
That's why it's taking place, and it's a shame. But anyways, thank you very much for your call today, sir. Okay. Alrighty, God bless.
01:18:36
Bye. 866 -854 -6763. You know, there's folks in the chat room who
01:18:43
I think somehow think I have control over stuff. I don't. There's nothing
01:18:48
I can do about it. Sorry. But this section, I need to make sure that this section is fully addressed in the book, because I think we have here the blueprint, a snapshot in three paragraphs of why
01:19:09
Christian scholarship—whatever that is, and that's a whole subject unto itself—why isn't
01:19:16
Christian scholarship at the forefront here? Oh yes, there have been some fine books written. James B.
01:19:22
DeYoung has done yeoman's work in providing a tremendous resource. I mentioned that book last week.
01:19:28
And there are some others. Greg Bonson himself wrote early on this. He recognized the fact of this.
01:19:37
But here, in the words of a Princeton seminary scholar, we have,
01:19:46
I think, the picture of how a non -Christian worldview has—well, we know
01:19:54
Princeton went into apostasy a long time ago—but here is how it becomes the very heart and soul of liberalism.
01:20:08
Uh, when Seau says, I have had to rethink my position and reread the scriptures.
01:20:14
Reread them in what way? In what way are we rereading the scriptures?
01:20:21
We're rereading the scriptures in the context of them no longer being God speaking to us.
01:20:28
We reread the scriptures in the context of them now being subject to the personal interpretation of my experience.
01:20:36
My experience now becomes the norm through which scripture is to be read.
01:20:47
And so, Dr. Seau observes gay and lesbian people, and he concludes that no one would ever choose to live this lifestyle.
01:20:56
Why not? They did in Sodom and Gomorrah. Why wouldn't people—people choose to live lifestyles that deprive them of many things for sin all the time?
01:21:15
He talks about the loving partnerships between gays—gay and lesbian loving partnerships.
01:21:24
How do we define loving partnerships? Are we allowing the world to define that rather than God?
01:21:31
Of course! That's exactly what's going on here. Saying that they will be better parents than most of us ever will be?
01:21:38
Please! How can that be said? The damage that is done to that child in depriving them, not only of the positive influence of either father or mother, but of perverting their thinking with the in -their -face example of rebellion against God's law and his way of life.
01:22:07
And then, notice—talk about totally and completely buying into the homosexual line.
01:22:19
There's an extremely high rate of suicide among homosexual persons. Yes, there is. Oh, but that's the church and society's fault.
01:22:27
How about it's the suppression of truth's fault? How about it is the amount of energy that goes into constantly having to deal with the conscience's fault?
01:22:40
Many people hate themselves because of what society and the church say about them.
01:22:45
How about this is an expression of their self -hatred? I know of many homosexual persons in the ministry who have been very effective for the cause of Jesus Christ.
01:22:57
How do you define the cause of Jesus Christ? They certainly haven't been effective in calling people to repent of this sin, have they?
01:23:05
It is just incredible. They are hurt by the church. No, they are hurt by their sin.
01:23:13
And if the church is faithful to the truth and proclaims that truth, then the
01:23:18
Holy Spirit can either use that to bring them to redemption. Remember, Paul said, such were some of you,
01:23:23
Dr. Seau, or it is used to bring about their condemnation.
01:23:30
God is just in doing that as well. I cannot believe that we are called to perpetuate such pain and suffering in the world.
01:23:37
I am compelled now to trust my observations and experience. Yeah, that's become your ultimate authority, hasn't it?
01:23:47
Unbelievable. But I hope you hear what is being said. It is just incredible to see this kind of thinking entering into, well, there being proclaimed by someone who holds the chair, who teaches
01:24:10
Hebrew at Princeton, a place that once proclaimed
01:24:15
God's truth. And now is inveterately opposed to it. What an utter shame that is.
01:24:27
Well, we have looked at this issue, and I know it is not an easy issue.
01:24:33
It is not a fun issue, and we are going to need to move on from here to other issues. In fact,
01:24:38
I do not know what we are doing next week because I am not going to be here. I am going to be across the nation, in fact.
01:24:48
I am going to be ministering in one of their Carolinas type thing.
01:24:56
Tell them that we are looking for a new real audio server provider. Well, okay, we are looking for a new real audio server provider.
01:25:05
If you are a real audio server provider, please contact us. Anyways, we are going to do a pre -recorded program next week.
01:25:13
I do not know what in the world it will be on. Next week will be pre -recorded. Okay, so we will have a pre -recorded program up there.
01:25:22
But anyhow, it will be on religion. It will be a religious subject. I am being informed. That is very useful and very predictable as well.
01:25:30
But that is normally what I say when people say, what are you going to talk about today? It will be something religious. I know it is a difficult subject we have addressed.
01:25:37
It is not a happy topic and subject. But it is a subject that needs to be addressed.
01:25:43
There are so many subjects like this that are beginning to enter into the consciousness of the church.
01:25:53
And the reason they are there is because of the decay at the very foundation within evangelicalism.
01:26:02
And we are sounding an alarm. We are sounding an alarm. And I hope that you have been blessed.
01:26:13
That is where we are headed next week.
01:26:19
And we are going to be with CDS and the crew back there. And we are going to see if CDS can lift weights or do something like that.
01:26:29
I do not know. But that probably will not really happen. But anyways, we are going to do the King James thing sometime.
01:26:35
Someday in the future. We are going to do it. I know some of you keep complaining that you download that. You do not know what to do with it.
01:26:41
Just look at it. It is very pretty. It is very nice to download. We will do the King James subject eventually down the road. And the only way to know what we are going to do is by tuning in and listening.
01:26:50
Thank you for doing that today. And God bless. The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.
01:27:30
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01:27:38
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01:27:44
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