March 2, 2022 Show with Ryan Denton on “The Reformed Evangelist: The Man, the Myth, & the Message”

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happy Wednesday on this second day of March 2022.

And by the way, folks, I want to urge you all who missed yesterday's program to go to the

archives at ironsharpensironradio .com.

Click on past shows in parentheses podcast

or maybe podcast in parentheses past shows, I can't remember right now.

But you will see a link for my interview with Mykola Leliovsky

who is a seminary professor and translator in Ukraine.

He is a native Ukrainian and a Christian and a Reformed Christian.

And I interviewed him yesterday while he was there right in Kiev

conducting the interview.

And my co -host was Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

And I strongly urge you to hear that interview.

It was coming from a different perspective than most, if not all of the interviews

you've seen on television with folks in Ukraine since this was coming from the perspective of a Reformed

Evangelical Christian.

So I hope that you take advantage of that and spread that link far and wide.

But today I am privileged to have back on the program Ryan Denton,

who was a pastor on the Navajo Reservation before starting Christ in the

Wild Ministries, which he has directed since 2016.

He is also a church planter and evangelist in Texas and the author of several books.

Today we are going to be addressing his latest book co -authored with Al Baker,

The Reformed Evangelist, The Man, The Myth, and The Message.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Ryan Denton.

Good to be back on, Chris.

Thanks, sir.

Well, it's my pleasure, brother.

And why don't you tell our listeners about Christ in the Wild Ministries.

Yeah, so I'm a pastor on the Navajo Reservation.

As it turns out now, this is, let's say this is about five years ago when we were

back in December to plant a church

in New Mexico with Van Gogh.

This is my first

learning a lot and depending on the Lord.

It's been quite a blessing, too.

We've just seen the faithfulness of God really move in this little area, in Clovis, New Mexico, and then

now we're seeing a lot of good fruit in Lubbock, Texas.

And so it's been neat to see that the Lord is faithful to His Word and He

has given us a means and method to go about evangelism and church planting and He

blesses that method.

And so it's kind of neat to see that on the ground.

Great.

And tell us about the title of the book.

The main title is self -explanatory, The Reformed Evangelist, although it might not

be self -explanatory to some who are unfamiliar with Reformed and

Calvinistic terminology.

They may think the Reformed Evangelist means somebody who used to be an evangelist and is no longer

an evangelist.

But that's not what it means.

And especially, though, I think something that requires defining or explaining the man, the

myth, and the message.

Yeah, so I think anyone who's Reformed is probably

or another

reputation for bold, front -line evangelism.

And that is inconsistent with Christianity as far

as history demonstrates that a

belief in God's sovereignty, even especially when it comes to His salvation,

election, predestination, things like that, that has really spurred on a lot of people to actually go.

Whereas nowadays it seems like when you think of evangelism being done, I would say, and I

know I'm generalizing, but in general it seems like, you know, we typically think of

the Arminian type, maybe the fundamental Baptist types who are out

knocking on doors and things like that.

And we don't usually try

out evangelizing and things like that.

And so Al Baker, who I co -wrote this book with, he and I just started

discussing that there does need to be, there does seem

to be amongst Reformed Christians as far as evangelism goes.

And I've seen that specific preaching in church planting

in areas like this.

And at the same time, to evangelism for the Reformed

group, I think that it's an area that seems to be lagging,

say, you know, like the family.

There's a lot of conferences and things like that on the family, on the gospel, and those are all very important, and there's no denying that.

But, you know, you just don't usually hear a lot as far as evangelism

really being emphasized.

And so it's not to say it's not being done, I think it is being done, and certainly more

so that there

needs to be as much material out there as possible, good material,

on what it is to be a Reformed evangelist.

So that is the title we did.

The book is very unapologetically Reformed, as far as the

myth goes,

typically in the purity at the office of the evangelist.

And, of course, a lot of them, if not all of them, deny that that office were

ongoing.

They would call it

ordinary, meaning it's no longer, it's not.

And so it was interesting, just on a personal level, to go through there and pull up everything that

Calvin and John Owen and some of these guys, Matthew Henry, everything they had written

of the evangelist, and kind of just line them up side by side and kind of see, okay, what are

some of the reasons why they don't think this office is ordinary or ongoing.

And my conclusion was, and I'm fallible in no way, even on the

same level as these guys were, but it does seem, and I document this in the book, the first

chapter, actually, it does seem that there's quite a bit of inconsistency and arbitrariness as

far as their views on why that office,

it's not to say that they denied evangelism.

Of course, John Calvin, the

John Calvin head, when it came fully behind it, they were sending

tons of missionaries and church planters out from Geneva.

So it's not to say that any of these guys, and it's not to say the Reformed Church in general is not on

board with evangelism.

In my experience, I don't know if I've ever met an actual hyper -Calvinist, you know, in the sense that they don't believe that

evangelism should be done.

I know they're out there.

I've never met any.

I unfortunately have.

Okay, all right.

Well, I would say this, though, and correct me if I'm wrong, Chris, it does seem

to be the

case that...

Exactly.

...the myth of it, and so some of the myth is, okay, should we be saying that the office of

evangelist is extraordinary?

And if not, and if we shouldn't be saying that, well, either way, actually, let me

back up just a little bit.

In the OPC, they have a place for

the evangelist to operate in, and so they're church

planters, they're out on them.

And so those are examples.

They're not opposed to the evangelist, but as far as looking at the evangelist as an actual officer in the

church, they disagree that that's the case.

And so part of the book is just trying to clarify some of this and going, okay,

what for the

evangelist is

concerned?

Because if we're not, what does that mean?

Okay, even if we say he's not an officer, which I disagree, and the book kind of spells some of that out why,

even if we say he's not an officer, we're still operating under the assumption

that evangelists do exist.

In fact, John Talbot even said that, because he denies that

it's an extraordinary office, but he also

said it raised up evangelists.

And so it's just, you know, that would be the mythical part of it, just trying to dispel some of these

notions, and if anything, just going into it and trying to clarify it and perhaps

put out some definitions and things just so that it would be useful for all of us, not just

evangelists, but for anybody who's reformed, to kind of work through it.

It's to the opposite of evangelists.

A lot of this book, he's

been on

the scene all today.

He's got most of the Bible memorized, most of the New Testament memorized.

So he's not an, he's certainly not an old man by any way, by any measure.

For a long time, now he's serving as an evangelist,

and kind of had to avoid it from a guy who has a lot,

and the message right there.

Let me read a commendation for this book from Dr. Henry Crobendom,

who I had the privilege of meeting a number of years ago at the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin

Square, Long Island, New York, where my dear friend Bill Shishko was once the pastor,

before pastoring a church plant that he is currently involved in.

But Dr. Crobendom said, that the reformed evangelist is a treat.

It's informative, has a convincing edge, I'm sorry, a convicting edge,

and is sure to produce a transforming effect.

I trust it will whet everyone's appetite.

So tolle legae, which is Latin for pick up and read, or take up and read.

And also we have Jerry Doris, pastor of Reformation Church.

I'm trying to remember where that church is.

It's Kentucky, right outside of Louisville.

This timely book helps the local church recognize and equip the men of God as given her

to lead the charge in public proclamation.

And Joseph Spurgeon, pastor of Sovereign King Church, and where is that?

That is also, I believe, in Kentucky.

And he is a descendant of Charles Spurgeon, isn't he?

I don't know.

We can say he is.

I mean, I would probably claim it if my last name was Spurgeon.

Yeah, well, it's not a very common name.

But he says, we need a return of the militant church, passionate for preaching

the crown rites of the king.

The reformed evangelist is a helpful tool for pastors, elders, and church members in this

work.

And this is a highly disputed

area because, as you've already been stating in the beginning of the program,

there are those who, outside of Reformed theology,

who claim if somebody has a reputation for

passionate evangelism with urgency in the message,

somebody who preaches with fervor and with

compassion for lost souls, that if they are doing that, they are either

not Reformed or, if they are Reformed, they are really Reformed on

paper only and they are, in their minds, thankfully, being inconsistent

by preaching in such a manner.

They will make claims of that to Charles Adams Spurgeon

in the 19th century, when they know from reading not only Spurgeon's own

words on what he considered to be biblical preaching, but also from eyewitness accounts

of those who saw and heard Spurgeon preach, they will think that Spurgeon may have claimed to be

a Calvinist, but he really wasn't in his heart of hearts.

But these things are not oxymoronic, being

Reformed and being a passionate evangelist, am I right?

Yeah, I think about George Whitfield, the same happened with him, and also William Carey.

You know, they thought he was a madman and a fanatic, and, you know,

Carey might have been in a different spot, and I

think he was by Whitfield.

You know, you have the controversy between the old light and new light.

So, it's a real thing, and, you know,

something that we've...

There is still this tendency,

inclusion, that this of evangelists goes.

But again, it's not to say that the people who are saying this are anti

-evangelism or anti -missions or anything like that.

They're not.

They're just seeing a different role, I guess, for

where he fits in when it comes to the church.

It has been...

Now, the Scriptures, the New Testament, the inerrant God -breathed

words of the New Covenant, they define

the qualifications of both elders and deacons.

Would you say that even though we don't have a list connected with evangelists that I'm aware of,

that there should be such a list that is really no different from

those qualifications of elders and deacons?

Yeah.

So, absolutely.

The office of the same

thing, like with the Titus 1, that

outlines what it is to...

Now, would this be a role that primarily functions

outside of the four walls of the local church where

the congregation gathers formally for its worship?

This body is

gigas.

But I would also look at it in this way, and I know a lot of this kind of depends on how people read, for

instance, Ephesians 4, 11, where it says, and he gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as

evangelists and some as pastors and teachers.

And then right here, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service to the building up of the body of Christ.

Now, this is the NASB.

And the NASB, anyways, and again, I know that people sometimes quote,

but, you know, if you just, when you're looking at

this, have been given to the church for the equipping of the saints for

the work of service to the building up of the body so that we

all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.

Mature man.

Part of the purpose of the evangelist, and I think this is some of the deficit, I think, that we see

in the church as far as evangelism goes in general, is that we seem to, we typically look at the

evangelist and we say, okay, well, your sphere is kind of outside the church and the pastors and

teachers, but we'll take care of the inside of the church and the flock and shepherd the people.

Whereas, I guess, even just looking at Scripture

like

that, at the same time, at

the level, you know, so in other

words, what evangelism is

and what

biblically

and thereby ways and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men.

If you think about all the different gimmicks and evangelism methods that are out there that I would argue that are unbiblical,

and that would be a different topic, you know, but there's so many, and I

would look at that, and I think

biblical methods or approaches to evangelism,

gimmicks -based, I

think we

have

just

kind of like,

do your thing out there, we'll do our thing in here, and then we'll meet back here on Sunday and see how it goes.

And the word evangelist itself, I know that you are promoting the

concept of that being an office, but isn't that a word that can also have

general application where, really, is it not the duty of every

single Christian, both a man and a woman, and even a young

person who is a boy or a girl who is truly regenerate, isn't it our duty

to be an evangelist, to be a bearer of the good news of Jesus Christ, to be unashamed of

the gospel, and to basically proclaim

in an unwavering manner what we believe no matter what the consequences

are.

And I'll give you an example.

I am not an office bearer at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, but several

times a year they call upon me to preach and evangelize, as

it were, at a men's mission, basically a

facility and a ministry for those who are homeless, those who are suffering

with substance abuse, alcohol and drug addiction, and so on.

And I am not an office bearer, but I would be serving in the role of an evangelist at that point.

So isn't this something, this term and this concept, that has a broader application?

Yes, yeah, absolutely.

And I would say the same thing about teaching as well, or even to a certain

extent, teaching, right?

So you have an office for it, and at the same time, though, as Christians,

normally not from a pulpit, perhaps,.

Even Priscilla did in her home with Aquila.

Yep, yep, or exactly.

Or let's say at work, you know, and you're talking to somebody who either doesn't know the gospel or perhaps they're new in the faith, and

so you're going to be teaching, you're going to be teaching as you go even

though you're not

even shepherding.

You know, we, in a sense, we shepherd our children, not in a capital S, capital T for

teach.

Again, it goes back to we have these

officer

situations,

people and things like that, where we evangelize, right?

We've already been trained and equipped, and so what you're

talking about here

in Jerusalem, those have been scattered.

What about preaching the word, it says in the NASB?

Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them.

Verse 4, you have the word preach there.

Verse 5, you have the word proclaim there.

It's been scattered.

What about evangelizing?

Not the apostles, though, because, okay,

so they're going to go out.

So yeah, we're all caught.

That can be a danger in this.

When you recognize or let's say even acknowledge someone to be an evangelist, let's say in your church,

whether or not you want to consider them holding an office, right, when you recognize someone as an

evangelist, what the danger of that is

might have the mindset that, okay, well, he's the one that does the evangelism for us.

Right.

And that cannot be the case.

And so the other thing that evangelists might do is perhaps even bring

and help them evangelize, let's say at an outreach or some kind of intentional

evangelism so that when they go back to the workplace or their family or things like that, they've already had some engagement with it

and so they're more comfortable doing it, and perhaps an evangelist can help spearhead that and lead that.

But yeah, so you're exactly right, but I would just argue that

somebody would make for us a, you know, because we're all

caught.

Right.

And we're going to pick up where you left off there when we return from our first break.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Ryan Denton on The Reformed

Evangelist, our email address is chrisarnson, at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S

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But we are now back with our interview with Ryan Denton who was

a pastor on the Navajo Reservation before starting Christ in the Wild Ministries which he has

directed since 2016 and he has planted a church in Texas and

we are addressing the Reformed Evangelist The Man, the Myth, and the Message his latest book

co -authored with Al Baker.

If you have a question our email address is chrisonzen at gmail dot com.

Chrisonzen at gmail dot com.

Now before the break we were saying that in your opinion

the evangelist is also or should also be an office of the church but it also has broader

application outside of an office bearer and in fact we were

talking about how it's the duty of every Christian to be an evangelist.

One of the very important differences with those of us who are confessionally

Reformed is that you and I and others who share our

views although we're not obviously in lockstep on every single thing we have much in common

especially if one were to be a confessional Reformed Christian that

only a man can hold an office whether it be

elder, deacon, or evangelist if it's an office that we're referring to, correct?

That's correct, yeah.

And a woman though is to be an evangelist with her family, with her

friends and colleagues at work.

As long as she's not stealing time from the company by evangelizing when she's supposed to be working

and everywhere else she has an opportunity to be a light in the darkness

and declare the gospel of Jesus Christ, right?

Yeah, and the same thing, I mean, think about going back to the example of teaching.

Paul tells us that women are not to teach or have authority over a man or over men

and we know though that

so yeah, I think it's similar in that context but yeah, again, I think the outline for the evangelist

as far as an office bearer goes would be.

We have Larry in Sacramento, California who has a question.

Are you currently preaching back on college campuses?

And if so, is the spiritual climate any different now than before COVID?

Feel free to elaborate on your thoughts.

Yeah, so you know

what,

even those who were in shock

and awe and gimmicks

and things like that because we know that God is sovereign and that he draws people to himself through the preaching of the word,

the Bibles.

And just

because of the political nature of

how COVID is kind of playing out a lot of the people that would come to

so you're not going

once the COVID

and we didn't have that now you were having more of the

shakes out with COVID right now just politically, people more on the left

or secular that were coming out and they're the ones that usually create the big scenes when we're preaching.

And so now that COVID is

I think it is, it's kind of hard to say I think people are certainly a little more amped up.

Wow.

Yeah, it seems like people are more prone to maybe step over some of the lines of

even the law.

Well thank you Larry and since you are a first time questioner make sure we have your mailing address

there in Sacramento, California because you have just won a

free copy of The Reformed Evangelist The Man, the Myth, and the Message published

by Five Solas Press.

And we thank Five Solas Press for providing a limited number of copies of this book

to give away to listeners with questions here in the USA.

I apologize ahead of time for our listeners in Canada and overseas and

South America as well.

We cannot provide these books for free because the shipping costs would be

astronomical for CVBBS Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service our sponsor who

ships these books out to our listeners.

So please those of you who are listening outside of the United States we

extend our apologies that we can't send you a free copy of the book.

And Larry, since you are a first time questioner you are also going to receive a free New American

Standard Bible compliments of the publishers of the NASB.

Thank you so much.

We have Renata in Sao Paulo Brazil

and she says Pastor Denton I would like to ask you if it is correct to

use tools as alphabetization classes for an

approximation to evangelism.

My question is because in my nation there are native populations and also

many many persons that don't know how to read.

Our education system here is terrible and I have witnessed brothers and sisters, adults that

aren't educated even of the basics and are very ashamed to say something.

Is it correct to use these types of means.

And thanks for another excellent opportunity to learn from my brother's

Professor Chris.

I don't know if she was saying that jokingly but I am not a professor but in fact

sometimes people call me Pastor Chris and I am not a pastor either just a lowly

talk show host so I am not even really sure what she means by alphabetization.

What is she speaking about do you know?

I am not sure either I am assuming she is saying that.

I don't think there is any evangelism so long as

number one.

So in other

words if we are evangelizing

passing out a bible things

about

evangelism especially if you go back to the days of the apostles

it was not really a literate culture.

Either.

And I think we talked

about this

and you believed it and he specifically mentions

without a preacher

to remember that we

share it is not in the

method it is not even

let me say this though too.

Chris.

I don't think that.

Well thank you Renata and I hope you keep listening to Iron Trap and Zion Radio and keep spreading the word

about the program in Brazil and beyond.

We have Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina one of our favorite listeners and

questioners in our audience.

We have a question from Grady that says, greetings brothers.

As a Reformed Baptist I see more brethren evangelizing than before.

I came to the doctrines of grace.

I see brothers street preaching, evangelizing on the internet and podcasts.

Would you consider these doing the work of an evangelist?

Yes.

I think

evangelism is sharing the

gospel now.

Podcasts might be a little different though because I guess it depends on who the audience is but

yeah I think.

Well thank

you so

much Grady for the excellent.

Questions.

And because you have sent in so many we already have your address on file and

we are going to have CVBBS, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service that's CVBBS

.com.

They're going to be shipping out to you a copy, a free copy of the Reformed Evangelist by our guest Ryan

Denton and Al Baker so keep your eye open in the mail for that.

We have RJ in White Plains, New York who wants to know what are the key reasons

you want to see an evangelist elevated to the role of an office

bearer rather than just a general function in the body of Christ.

That's a great question, I

would say number one because the

evangelist was not included in that one of

the reasons

why

the

apostles

in my

mind, I'm

thinking

and again this is one of a few different reasons

something that was only extraordinary or let's say foundational then they would have showed up

the foundation of the apostles, prophets.

And evangelists.

In fact could you pick up.

On verse 20 there when we return from our break because we have to go to our station.

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Before we return to our discussion with Ryan Denton on his book The

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chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And Ryan, I had to cut you off because we were entering into our midway break before.

You were just about to enter into verse 20

of the passage that you were exegeting at that time.

Was that 2 Corinthians 5?

I can't remember right now.

That's Ephesians 2.

Oh, Ephesians 2, I'm sorry.

And verse 20, though, you're right about verse 20.

Yeah, and that was in response to the evangelist as an

officer and why.

And I was mentioning that first and

foremost,

because back in Ephesians 2 .20, again, you

have the foundation,.

He's talking about the church, and so he

specifically notes that the apostles and prophets are foundational officers or offices.

And if the evangelist was meant to be included in that,

again,

in chapter 3.

And again, in the book, he goes into much further detail on this stuff.

We can only do so much here.

So that would be the first reason why.

But then even if you

just evangelist in

churches, again, it's never denied that we have evangelists.

And that's

some

of these

guys,

the

evangelist,

formed

evangelism.

Some

of that

going on

there,

again, you

can

disagree with me on the office.

We know that they are wired.

Again, we kind of relegate them to the back of the church, or hypothetically speaking, metaphorically speaking.

And we say that you're evangelizing.

That's kind of like what your thing is.

And so he's out there evangelizing.

And, you know, these guys, they're going to the abortion clinics.

They're going to—they just have this—.

But

because

it's in a more

balanced

church, where it's not so

outward

-focusing, all the—.

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says, One thing that has

disturbed me greatly over the years is when I come to discover a popular

evangelist that travels from city to city and town to town that I might

even have enjoyed immensely and been blessed by.

But, as it turns out, sometimes these evangelists have no real, official,

solid connection to a local church.

And they are under the oversight of no one.

They have no elders whom they are accountable to.

Is this something that disturbs you in regard to the traveling evangelist?

So this is the other—so this is part of that myth part, you know, the man, the myth, and the message.

Because, yes, absolutely.

I think it is

of the

evangelists, the saints in the church.

What you would

have is—.

And so usually—and I agree with

the—.

Usually, when we think of evangelists, we usually tend

to think of the evangelist in our preaching.

You know, a lot of times, because I do a lot of open -air preaching and stuff, and so, you know, usually, you know, if you tell someone,

Yeah, I'm a shrine, and the kind

of methods and things like that, and—.

Now, there are some, as you probably know, who take the

concept of the priesthood of all believers, they take that concept out of

context, and they think it is their right as a Christian, they might even

think it's their duty as a Christian, to stand up on a soapbox on a

street corner, or wherever they happen to be, in the parking lot of a movie theater, or

on the boardwalk at the beach, and start thundering the

gospel, or whatever they think the gospel happens to be.

And they have no authority to do so, given to them

by their local church.

And they might not even be a member of a local church, but let's say, for argument's sake,

they are a member of a local church, but they're doing so without the blessing

of their elders.

Is this a proper behavior?

Yeah, now, so—.

I was on here, Chris, we— I was on—Smith and I wrote a book,

Speed,.

Yes.

On—voted that question,

and it's not just one on—.

For that reason, we—.

I think it's a—I think open -air preaching is a good way.

There's—I mean, there's somebody—.

Somebody preached.

Not to say that if you can't open -air preach, you're not—you're not called to preach, but it's to say, you know, a lot of times guys

still call to preach or call to ministry, and you don't let—you don't—you don't feel comfortable

letting them preach in the pulpit, so what do you do, right?

So I think—I think open -air preaching to bring them out into

teaching, because, you know, you—.

I would say, so for that reason, so for many reasons,

I definitely think that it needs to be done to

do

from

there,

and

so—.

But that's—.

You went back into the—.

Now, in your opinion, if an evangelist is an office -bearer, must he

always also be simultaneously an elder?

Like, for instance, I know of congregations in what have been called

the Church of Christ, or what has been called the Church of Christ.

They have been nicknamed Campbellites and so on, but there is a wide spectrum, especially in the 21st

century, of people from the Church of Christ all the way from biblically

sound and orthodox to cultic, and even, believe it or not, liberal.

There are even some truly leftist congregations in that group.

This seems to be news to a lot of people, but there are folks in that group they seem to hold

to evangelists as an office, and I've known a couple, a few,

who are evangelists for those congregations or in a specific congregation,

but when asked if they're an elder, they say, no, I'm not an elder of the church.

And sometimes that may be because there are some Church of Christ congregations that insist,

they take a very strict interpretation of

the qualifications for an elder to be the husband of one wife.

They believe he must be a husband, not that he's just a one -woman man, not that he's

just monogamous, but he must be a husband and must have children so that people can witness how he

governs his own home to be an elder.

So they may be an evangelist, but not an elder.

But what is your opinion on that?

Is an evangelist always, in your opinion, an elder if it is an office?

Yeah, I definitely think, again, if we're looking at it,

again, I think the purpose

is to build up,

if you have that, and also for the sake of accountability for guidelines, you want a

mature Christian.

In other words, think about the example that you're, the reason why, and I know

that's probably not in every case, but the reason why a lot of these guys are evangelists and not pastors, it sounds like,

and whether or not they're correctly interpreting 1 Timothy 3 or not, that's another issue, right?

But they're evangelists because they don't qualify to be an elder.

And so, you know, because an evangelist, as an officer in the church, needs to

be a qualified person.

And let's see, we have Ronald in eastern Suffolk County

who has a question, and he says, forgive me if you've already addressed this, I've just tuned in recently,

but I was wondering how homiletics applies to

being evangelists.

There are some who seem to think that the actual art

of oratory, the actual art of preaching the gospel,

how that is done, the manner with which it is done, including areas such as

the elevation and reduction of one's voice in appropriate places, and we could go on and

on with the details that are involved in homiletics, but there are some who believe that it is totally

immaterial and not very important, whereas others believe it's extremely important, such as Charles

Haddon Spurgeon.

I was wondering what your opinion on this is.

As far as the

evangelist goes, a lot of times we think,

well, if he's a passionate preacher,

and he's

articulation with his, or gesticulation, excuse me, with his

hands and things, he's an evangelist, whereas if

it's not as passionate, not

as intense perhaps, then that's more of a pastor -teacher.

And whereas, I mean, that could be the case, I guess, in certain instances.

I definitely don't see that as a qualification for whether or not you're an evangelist,

as far as, well, if you're a passionate preacher, you're an evangelist, etc.

But no, I guess, I think just the question regarding preaching

is, I've always seen it as the Lord using the personality of the person who's

preaching.

So sometimes people who are of one personality, they get up and they preach, and the

Lord uses that personality that he's given them, and perhaps they will be.

More passionate,.

More intense, maybe, whereas someone else gets up there and their personality is perhaps more

dry and not as intense and not as passionate, and yet the Lord still uses that as well.

So I don't think it's a huge thing.

Lectures to my students, if you're looking for open -air preaching information.

You're talking about Spurgeon.

Yeah, Spurgeon, Spurgeon.

Yeah, he, you know, personally speaking, I think he's, you know,.

He was also...

Thundering your voice, and so on, you mean.

What's that?

Yeah, exactly.

I remember the other day I was reading it, actually, and

he talked

about it.

I think he overdoes it

a little bit, but, you know, I think there is a place for, you

know, I've heard, and I think we've all heard, you know, there's other

guys that are more confused than

one, but I think it's a matter of their personality and the Lord using that.

And, of course, somebody who is not necessarily loud doesn't

mean they are not passionate when they're preaching.

Yeah, yeah.

Your heart could be broken by a man who is preaching the truth, and

his manner may be very passionate and yet quiet.

John MacArthur, for instance, is not known for being a thunderous preacher,

and there are other great men of God, both living and dead, that

have had a more staid approach.

But I think that there is truth behind

wondering why a man may be proclaiming biblical

truth or teaching facts about the Bible, and he

is speaking as if he is just randomly reading names and phone numbers

out of the yellow pages.

And just as if a married couple were having problems and they were

being counseled by the elders or an elder, and if the issue came up

that the wife was deeply hurt because when her husband says,

I love spaghetti and meatballs, he is saying it with much more passion than when he says to her, I love you.

You understand what I'm saying?

It can reveal that the person doesn't really care about the people who are listening to a

message which should have urgency behind it, and even more dangerously could not care very

much about God or his inerrant word if he is just very

indifferent in his manner, if that makes sense.

Yeah, and you could, I think, so again, so let's say you have a dry personality, and that's not

derogatory, you know, that's just the way God has wired us, and they have

a drier personality, but when they preach, that personality won't be as dry as it

ordinarily is because they'll be excited about what they're preaching.

But compared to so -and -so, he's not as passionate or intense.

Or using his gesticulation.

As much as so -and -so.

But in reality, for that person,.

And I guess that's how.

I kind of see it, you know.

Yes, I just actually heard an excellent message by Pastor

Richard Caldwell.

I saw and heard him preach at the True Church Conference in Muscle

Shoals, Alabama.

He was one of the featured speakers, and he was basically saying a lot of

the things that you are saying, and he was saying that for preaching to be

spirit -empowered preaching does not necessitate somebody with a loud, booming voice or

an animated personality pacing back and forth on a stage or so on.

So he was echoing a lot of what you just had to say.

Yeah, and that includes the evangelists, you know, because I think a lot of times we think of,

you know, not always.

Well, we are going to our final break right now.

It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks.

If you do have a question for Ryan Denton, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail

dot com, chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live

outside the USA.

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and we'll be right back after these messages.

Do not go away.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in our guest today is Ryan Denton and we are discussing his book that he

co -authored with Al Baker The Reformed Evangelist The Man, The Myth and The

Message.

If you have a question I would strongly urge you to send it in very soon because we are rapidly

running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

Chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania who asks, I heard that you

say that all evangelists must be elders

but I did not hear clearly whether or not you believe all elders must be

evangelists.

Yeah,.

No,.

Not at all.

Thank you Arnie, make sure we have your mailing address because you have also won a copy of The Reformed

Evangelist The Man, The Myth and The Message.

Before I go to any more listener questions I would like you to

basically summarize all those things that you would most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners

before they leave this program.

Again,.

This is whether or not

extraordinary meaning it sees with the apostles and prophets.

And that first.

Generation of Christians and so other than

that I know that is.

The

because I.

Part of the reason.

For writing.

Has been it has been neat

to do so and there's

not just.

Even.

Say it's not just even for men but the book addresses evangelism.

In general.

And how do we evangelize.

So it is on

the front lines evangelizing it is to say that the book is

different as

an evangelist.

The tensions that usually arise

with evangelists and churches.

And it.

Usually goes both ways.

You know.

It's not just a one way street just to say that there is some

practical advice there and that's coming from a lot of that.

Was there for 20 something years to

approach some of

these more tense areas and complicated.

Areas.

And then.

We also have.

A chapter devoted.

To.

Specific evangelists

from

confessions

on this topic.

OPC and the PCA not

in a derogatory.

Way either.

I mean we're looking at that and saying this is actually a useful description of what an evangelist.

Is.

Vanguard, Presbytery and so we have a lot of different a lot of different ways that we

approach this topic.

And so.

I would say.

You know.

Anyone who is interested in evangelism.

At all.

This is up your alley.

Most of it if not all of it will be right in line or

involved in evangelism in any way.

I think it's hugely important because.

You know.

We're dealing.

With a.

Very dark.

And it's.

Easy to know.

How to.

But then when you start going around.

And you start.

Interacting with.

Neighbors.

And with people on the streets and you know.

Wherever you're going.

It's like this is a pagan territory it really is.

And so.

I don't care where you are in the United States.

It would probably.

Be even worse in England and like that we need to

be equipped with how to approach people with the gospel.

And so.

You don't have to agree with everything that we conclude with as far as the book goes and our position on

the evangelist but if at the very least you come away with a better

understanding of some of the reformers and post -reformers and their views of the evangelist

you know.

I don't.

Anybody who's a.

Christian.

Christopher in Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York says who can you

point to in church history who shared your view that the evangelist is an office in the church?

Well.

Again if we're.

Defining it as an office.

That is.

Extraordinary or is you're not going to find.

A lot of.

Representatives for instance Calvin.

I mentioned.

John Owen.

Matthew Henry.

Some people.

Point to.

Charles Hodge.

When I.

Read what Hodge says.

I don't think.

I think it's more ambiguous than him coming down on the side.

Of saying.

Yeah this is an office that is.

Ongoing.

But I think.

That's part of the reason why I wanted to address this topic because I don't think it has been

researched so if

anything.

If this just gets.

The ball.

Rolling.

For others to take it and perhaps.

Run a little.

Further than I've done.

With it.

I think.

That's a win because.

Ultimately if you.

Look so the.

Whole chapter one.

I think maybe 20 pages of chapter one.

It goes.

That I look.

At specifically.

That deal with the office.

And what.

They said about it.

And so.

Having gone.

Through it.

And I.

Believe that any reader will once they actually read through the comments.

And the.

Reasons why some of these giants have dismissed.

It as being an extraordinary.

Office and again this is not to downplay him and certainly I.

Mean I.

Can't even I can't hold a candle to these guys.

But it is.

To say these men.

Number one.

We know.

They're.

Fallible but number two.

I don't.

Think they.

Are.

When you.

Read it.

It's kind.

Of all over the.

Place.

All these guys are kind of all.

Over the.

Place.

Especially.

When you.

Can start.

Comparing.

The reasons.

Why.

John Owen.

Is over.

Here saying.

This is the reason.

Why.

And so and so.

He's over.

Here in the long.

And this is the.

Reason.

Why even if.

He's not engaging them directly as

far as.

People.

Because I.

Don't.

I'm fully.

Aware that.

Any time you stumble.

Across.

Something that's new.

That's.

Probably not a.

Good sign.

Right.

And so.

I'm not.

Convinced.

That this is new what we're.

Saying I don't think is new.

I just.

Don't think.

It has.

Been.

Communicated as consistently as it can.

Be.

I don't think we're.

On an.

Aisle.

As history.

Goes.

But it is to.

Say I think.

It's.

Then I.

Think we have.

To.

Just as you were saying before that every evangelist

should be or must be an elder if it is an office but not every elder is

required to be an evangelist what is.

The.

Difference in your.

Opinion.

Between and of course exegeting the scriptures.

What would be the primary difference between

teaching the scriptures and evangelizing.

I believe that every solid sermon if

the preacher is obeying God and getting behind that sacred desk

every sermon that is.

Honoring to.

God should involve some evangelism although the majority of the sermon might

be purely teaching and exegeting but there is I think a

difference between teaching and evangelism.

And if you could explain yeah.

So.

Evangelism.

Is.