March 2, 2022 Show with Ryan Denton on “The Reformed Evangelist: The Man, the Myth, & the Message”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister, George Norcross, in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on the second day of March, 2022, and by the way, folks,

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I want to urge you all who missed yesterday's program to go to the archives at IronSharpensIronRadio .com,

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click on past shows in parentheses podcast, or maybe podcast in parentheses past shows,

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I can't remember right now, but you will see a link for my interview with Mykola Lelievsky, who is a seminary professor and translator in Ukraine.

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He is a native Ukrainian, and a Christian, and a Reformed Christian, and I interviewed him yesterday while he was there, right in Kiev, conducting the interview, and my co -host was

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Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, and I strongly urge you to hear that interview.

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It was coming from a different perspective than most, if not all, of the interviews you've seen on television with folks in Ukraine, since this was coming from the perspective of a

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Reformed Evangelical Christian, so I hope that you take advantage of that and spread that link far and wide.

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But today, I am privileged to have back on the program Ryan Denton, who was a pastor on the

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Navajo Reservation before starting Christ in the Wild Ministries, which he has directed since 2016, he is also a church planter and evangelist in Texas, and the author of several books.

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Today, we are going to be addressing his latest book, co -authored with Al Baker, The Reformed Evangelist, The Man, the

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Myth, and the Message, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, Ryan Denton.

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Good to be back on, Chris. Thanks, sir. Well, it's my pleasure, brother, and why don't you tell our listeners about Christ in the

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Wild Ministries. Yeah, so as you mentioned, I used to be a pastor on the

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Navajo Reservation, and we were sent out from there to El Paso, Texas, to do evangelism and ministry work, and as it turns out now, this is, let's say this is about five years ago when we first moved to El Paso, but back in December, we just moved to Lubbock, Texas, to plant a church here, and another one in Clovis, New Mexico with Vanguard Presbytery, and so we've just seen, this is my first take at church planting, and so I'm certainly learning a lot and depending on the

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Lord in ways that I just really have never had to do before, so it's been really nice. It's been quite a blessing, too.

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We've just seen the faithfulness of God really move in this little area in Clovis, New Mexico, and then now we're seeing a lot of good fruit in Lubbock, Texas, and so it's been neat to see that the

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Lord is faithful to his word, and he has given us a means and method to go about evangelism and church planting, and he blesses that method, and so it's kind of neat to see that on the ground.

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Great. And tell us about the title of the book.

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The main title is self -explanatory, The Reformed Evangelist, although it might not be self -explanatory to some who are unfamiliar with Reformed and Calvinistic terminology.

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They may think the Reformed Evangelist means somebody who used to be an evangelist and is no longer an evangelist, but that's not what it means.

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And especially, though, I think something that requires defining or explaining the man, the myth, and the message.

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Yeah, so, as you know, and I think anyone who's Reformed is probably aware in some degree or another, the

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Reformed Christians, by and large, we don't really have a reputation for bold, front -line evangelism, and that is inconsistent with the history of Reformed Christianity, because Reformed Christianity, as far as the history goes, history demonstrates that a belief in God's sovereignty, even especially when it comes to his salvation, election, predestination, things like that, that has really spurred on a lot of people to actually go and evangelize in the past, whereas nowadays, it seems like when you think of evangelism being done,

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I would say, and I'm generalizing, but in general, it seems like, you know, we typically think of the

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Pentecostals or more the Charismatic type, Arminian type, maybe the

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Fundamental Baptist types who are out knocking on doors and things like that, and we don't usually picture the

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Reformed camp out there on the ground evangelizing and things like that, and so Al Baker, who

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I co -wrote this book with, he and I just started discussing that there does need to be, because there does seem to be a resurgence amongst

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Reformed Christians as far as evangelism goes, and I've seen that specifically with open air preaching and church planting and areas like that, so it's really refreshing to see this, and at the same time,

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I do think that when it comes to evangelism for the Reformed group, I think that it's an area that seems to be lagging in comparison to other areas, which are also important, like, let's say, you know, like the family.

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There's a lot of conferences and things like that on the family, on the gospel, and those are all very important, and there's no denying that, but I, you know, you just don't usually hear a lot as far as evangelism goes, as far as really being emphasized, and so it's not to say it's not being done,

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I think it is being done, and certainly more so than it used to be, let's say, I don't know, 30 years ago perhaps, but for that reason, we thought that there needs to be as much material out there as possible, good material, that's specifically and distinctly

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Reformed on what it is to be a Reformed evangelist, and so that is the tile we did.

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The book is very unapologetically Reformed. As far as the myth goes, it's interesting, because part of the research that I did for this book was to look back at all the different views of how the

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Reformers, specifically, the Puritans, the post -Reformers, how they looked at the office of the evangelist, and of course a lot of them, if not all of them, denied that that office was something that was perpetual or ongoing, they would call it super ordinary or extraordinary, so it's not extraordinary meaning it's no longer, it's not an ordinary office like pastor, teacher, and so it was interesting just on a personal level to go through there and pull up everything that Calvin and John Owen and some of these guys,

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Matthew Henry, everything they had written about the office of the evangelist and kind of just line them up side by side and kind of see, okay, what are some of the reasons why they don't think this office is ordinary or ongoing, and my conclusion was, and I'm infallible and in no way even on the same level as these guys were, but it does seem, and I document this in the book, the first chapter, actually, it does seem that there is quite a bit of inconsistency and arbitrariness as far as their views on why that office is extraordinary, but I will say this, that being the case, it's not to say that they denied evangelism per se, and of course

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John Calvin, there's, in fact, Michael Haken, there's a lot of good books out there as far as showing the prowess that John Calvin had when it came to evangelism and missions.

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I mean, he was fully behind it. They were sending tons of missionaries and church planners out from Geneva, so it's not to say that any of these guys, and it's not to say the

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Reformed Church in general is not on board with evangelism. In my experience,

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I don't know if I've ever met an actual hyper -Calvinist, you know, in the sense of they don't believe that evangelism should be done.

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I know they're out there. I've never met any. I unfortunately have. Okay, all right, well, and see,

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I would say this, though, and correct me if I'm wrong, Chris, it does seem to be the case that, at least

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I would say just in the general apparatus of Orthodox Reformed believers, it does seem that it's not that they're opposed to evangelism, it's just that it doesn't seem like we're doing much of it.

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Right, exactly. And so that's what we were looking to address, and that would be the myth of it, and so some of the myth is, okay, should we be saying that the office of evangelists is extraordinary, and if not, and if we shouldn't be saying that, well, either way, actually.

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Let me back up just a bit, because, for example, the PCA and the OPC, just to give two examples, in their book of church orders, they have a place for the evangelist, okay, so they actually have a place for the evangelist to operate in, and so they're church planners, they're out on the front lines, they're doing things like that, and so those are examples.

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They're not opposed to the evangelist, but as far as looking at the evangelist as an actual officer in the church, they disagree that that's the case.

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And so part of the book is just trying to clarify some of this and going through it historically and biblically, exegetically, and really digging in and say, okay, what is going on as far as the history and as far as the contemporary place for the evangelist is concerned?

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Because if we're saying that the evangelist does have a place, what does that mean?

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Okay, even if we say he's not an officer, which I disagree, and the book kind of spells some of that out why, even if we say he's not an officer, well, we're still operating under the assumption that evangelists do exist.

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In fact, John Talbot even said that Luther was probably an evangelist. So it's interesting, because he denies that, he says it's an extraordinary office, but he also says that, here's this exact quote, the

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Lord has sometimes at a later period raised up evangelists, which is a reference to Luther. And so it's just, you know, that would be the mythical part of it, just trying to dispel some of the some of these notions, and if anything, just going into it and trying to clarify it and perhaps put out some definitions and things just so that it would be useful for all of us, not just evangelists, but for anybody who's reformed to kind of work through these issues as it relates to the office of evangelist, to the evangelist, and to evangelism.

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And then the message is, a lot of this book is very practical, and that's where I really appreciated

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Al Baker's input here, because he's been on the scene for much longer than I have. He's, I think he's nearing 70, although he still, he runs like five miles a day, he's got most of the

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Bible memorized, most of the New Testament memorized, so he's not in, he's certainly not an old man by any way, by any measure, but he has been out there for a long time, and he was a pastor for a long time, now he's serving as an evangelist, and so there's a lot of practical input as far as just what, as evangelists, some of the dangers, some of the temptations that are distinct for evangelists, specific for us, and kind of how to avoid some of that from, especially from a guy who has a lot of experience, and so the man, the myth, and the message right there.

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Let me read a commendation for this book from Dr. Henry Kromendam, who

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I had the privilege of meeting a number of years ago at the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, New York, where my dear friend

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Bill Shishko was once the pastor, before pastoring a church plant that he is currently involved in, but Dr.

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Kromendam said that the Reformed evangelist is a treat, it's informative, has a convincing edge,

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I'm sorry, a convicting edge, and is sure to produce a transforming effect.

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I trust it will whet everyone's appetite, so tolle legae, which is

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Latin for pick up and read, or take up and read, and also we have

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Jerry Dorris, pastor of Reformation Church, I'm trying to remember where that church is.

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It's Kentucky, right outside of Louisville. This timely book helps the local church recognize and equip the men of God as given her to lead the charge in public proclamation, and Joseph Spurgeon, pastor of Sovereign King Church, and where is that?

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That is also, I believe, in Kentucky. And he is a descendant of Charles Spurgeon, isn't he?

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I don't know. We can say he is, I mean, I would probably claim it, if my last name was

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Spurgeon. Yeah, well, it's not a very common name, but he says, We need a return of the militant church, passionate for preaching the crown rights of the king.

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The Reformed Evangelist is a helpful tool for pastors, elders, and church members in this work.

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And this is a highly disputed area, because as you've already been stating in the beginning of the program, there are those who, outside of Reformed theology, who claim if somebody has a reputation for passionate evangelism, with urgency in the message, somebody who preaches with fervor and with compassion for lost souls, that if they are doing that, they are either not

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Reformed, or if they are Reformed, they are really Reformed on paper only, and they are, in their minds, thankfully, being inconsistent by preaching in such a manner.

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They will make claims of that to Charles Adams Spurgeon in the 19th century, when they know from reading not only

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Spurgeon's own words on what he considered to be biblical preaching, but also from eyewitness accounts of those who saw and heard

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Spurgeon preach, they will think that Spurgeon may have claimed to be a Calvinist, but he really wasn't in his heart of hearts.

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But these things are not oxymoronic, being

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Reformed and being a passionate evangelist. Am I right? Yeah, I think about George Whitfield, the same happened with him, and also

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William Carey. They thought he was a madman and a fanatic. Carey might have been in a different spot, in a sense, since he was,

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I think he was surrounded by hyper -Calvinists, to an extent.

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So that was different, in a sense. But I think, especially with Whitfield, you know, you have the controversy between the old light and new light.

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Yeah, this is still a very controversial thing, and something that we've encountered a little bit, as far as just people reading the book, is, you know, we've got a lot of good reviews and things, but there is still this tendency to say, well, you know,

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I disagree with the conclusion that this book comes away with, as far as the office of evangelist goes.

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But again, it's not to say that the people who are saying this are anti -evangelism, or anti -missions, or anything like that.

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They're not. They're just seeing a different role, I guess, for the evangelist, or at least on where he fits in when it comes to the

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Church. And so it's been interesting to kind of see the back and forth a little bit.

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Now, the Scriptures, the New Testament, the inerrant

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God -breathed words of the New Covenant, they define the qualifications of both elders and deacons.

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Would you say that even though we don't have a list connected with evangelists that I'm aware of, that there should be such a list that is really no different from those qualifications of elders and deacons?

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Yeah, so absolutely. We do take the position that the evangelist, as far as the office of evangelist goes, same thing like with the pastor -teacher.

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There are qualifications in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 that outlines what it is to to have this responsibility as an officer.

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And so I would say the same thing for the evangelist. So in other words, the evangelist would fall into the category of an elder.

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But as far as what they do as elders, I would argue, and the book argues, that they do have a different role than, let's say, the pastor -teacher.

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Now, would this be a role that primarily functions outside of the four walls of the local church where the congregation gathers formally for its worship?

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Right. So I would say, you know, an evangelist, by his gifting, is more wired to be outward -focused.

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But I would also look at it in this way, and I know a lot of this kind of depends on how people read, for instance,

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Ephesians 4, 11, where it says, and he gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as pastors and teachers.

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And then right here, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service to the building up of the body of Christ.

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Now, this is the NASB, but in the NASB anyways, and again, I know that people sometimes quibble with verse 12 there.

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But, you know, if you're reading this, and I agree, even looking at the original, when you're looking at this, it says that these officers have been given to the church for the equipping of the saints for the work of service to the building up of the body of Christ.

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And the point or the purpose of this is so that we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the

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Son of God, etc., to a mature man. And so part of the purpose of the evangelist, and I think this is perhaps some of the deficit,

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I think, that we see in the church as far as evangelism goes in general, is that we typically look at the evangelist and we say, okay, well, your sphere is kind of outside the church and the pastors and teachers, but we'll take care of the inside of the church and the flock and shepherd the people.

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Whereas, I guess, even just looking at Scripture, but also on a practical level. So we argue in the book that the evangelist, although he does have a wiring to be outward focused and certainly a heart for the lost and things like that, at the same time, he's also there to help equip the saints to do the work of evangelism, to better share the gospel, just on a practical level.

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So in other words, to teach and to talk about what evangelism is and what biblical evangelism is, if you go down to verse 14 where Paul says, as a result, we are no longer to be children taught here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness and deceitful scheming.

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If you think about all the different gimmicks and evangelism methods that are out there that I would argue that are unbiblical, and that would be a different topic, you know, but there's so many unbiblical approaches to evangelism, and I would look at that, and I think one of the reasons that even

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Reformed churches sometimes can be so caught up in, let's say, unbiblical methods or approaches to evangelism, gimmick -based types of evangelism, is because I think we have, by and large, not everybody, but by and large, perhaps dropped the ball when it comes to equipping the church on biblical evangelism, and so perhaps a reason for that is the demoting, perhaps not on paper, but at least in practice, of the evangelist to something that's just kind of like, you know, he just kind of does his own thing, and we just kind of say, okay, well, you do your thing out there, we'll do our in here, and then we'll meet back here on Sunday, and see how it goes.

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And the word evangelist itself, I know that you are promoting the concept of that being an office, but isn't that a word that can also have general application, where really, is it not the duty of every single

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Christian, both a man and a woman, and even a young person who is a boy or a girl who is truly regenerate, isn't it our duty to be an evangelist, to be a bearer of the good news of Jesus Christ, to be unashamed of the gospel, and to basically proclaim in an unwavering manner what we believe, no matter what the consequences are.

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And I'll give you an example, I am not an office bearer at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, but several times a year they call upon me to preach and evangelize, as it were, at a men's mission, basically a facility and a ministry for those who are homeless, those who are suffering with substance abuse, alcohol and drug addiction, and so on.

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And I am not an office bearer, but I would be serving in the role of an evangelist at that point. So isn't this something, this term and this concept, that has a broader application?

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Yes, yeah, absolutely, and I would say the same thing about teaching as well, or even to a certain extent.

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So for instance, when you think of teaching, right, so you have an office or pastor -teacher, and at the same time, though, as Christians, to a certain extent, we are all called to teach in certain contexts, right?

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Not formally, not from a pulpit, perhaps. Even Priscilla did in her home with Aquila. Yeah, yeah, or exactly, or let's say at work, you know, and you're talking to somebody who either doesn't know the gospel, perhaps they're new in the faith, and maybe you're a little more seasoned, and so you're going to be teaching as you go in whatever context that you're in, even though you're not a quote -unquote office bearer, right?

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You're still called to teach, even shepherding, you know? In a sense, we shepherd our children, not in a capital

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S, capital T for teach sense of the word, but in the sense of, again, it goes back to we have these officers to equip us to better fulfill our roles as Christians so that whenever we are in situations to teach, or to shepherd, or to disciple, and things like that, or evangelize, we've already been trained and equipped in certain areas.

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And I would also say this, so you have a good example of what you're talking about here in Acts 8, 4.

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This is right after where Saul was persecuting the church, and then in verse 4, it says,

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Therefore those who have been scattered from Jerusalem, those who have been scattered, went about preaching the word, it says in the

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NASV. Verse 5, it says, Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming

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Christ to them. Verse 4, you have the word preached there. Verse 5, you have the word proclaimed there. Those are two different words, though.

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Verse 4 is the word for evangelism. Therefore those who have been scattered went about gossiping the word, or sharing the word, evangelizing the word, or evangelizing,

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I guess, in the words included there. So in other words, you have two types of things going on here.

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Philip is proclaiming it, he's preaching it. But verse 4, you have everybody, not the apostles, though, because remember, the apostles are still in Jerusalem.

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So they're going to go out, but it's those who have been scattered, they went about evangelizing. So yeah, we're all called to evangelize.

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And I think that is one of the areas that can be of danger in this whole thing, because when you recognize, or let's say even acknowledge someone to be an evangelist, let's say in your church, whether or not you want to consider them holding an office, when you recognize someone as an evangelist, what the danger of that is, is the church might have the mindset that, okay, well, he's the one that does the evangelism for us.

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And that cannot be the case. And so the other thing that evangelists might do is perhaps even bring the church out and help them evangelize.

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Let's say at an outreach or some kind of intentional evangelism, so that when they go back to the workplace or their family or things like that, they've already had some engagement with it, and so they're more comfortable doing it, and perhaps an evangelist can help spearhead that and lead that.

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But yeah, so you're exactly right, but I would just argue that it's the same argument that somebody would make for a teacher, let's say, that, well, we shouldn't have teachers, because we're all called to teach in certain contexts.

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Right. And we're going to pick up where you left off there when we return from our first break.

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If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Ryan Denton on the

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Reformed Evangelist, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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36:39

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

36:47

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

36:53

Lord God Savior and King Jesus Christ today and always.

37:03

Hi, this is President Biden. I want to encourage you to listen to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio with croissants and now as you know as a lapsed heathen

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Catholic I don't listen to it but you should. Come on man, what do you have to lose? I couldn't resist playing that.

37:20

That was a creation of my friend George Jensen, pastor of the

37:26

First Enola Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania. But we are now back with our interview with Ryan Denton who was a pastor on the

37:36

Navajo Reservation before starting Christ in the Wild Ministries which he has directed since 2016 and he has planted a church in Texas and we are addressing the

37:49

Reformed Evangelist, The Man, The Myth, and The Message, his latest book co -authored with Al Baker.

37:56

If you have a question our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

38:02

Now before the break we were saying that in your opinion the evangelist is also or should also be an office of the church but it also has broader application outside of an office bearer and in fact we were talking about how it's the duty of every

38:22

Christian to be an evangelist. One of the very important differences with those of us who are confessionally

38:30

Reformed is that you and I and others who share our views, although we're not obviously in lockstep on every single thing, we have much in common especially if one were to be a confessional

38:47

Reformed Christian, that only a man can hold an office whether it be elder, deacon, or evangelist if it's an office that we're referring to, correct?

39:00

That's correct, yeah. And a woman though is to be an evangelist with her family, with her friends and colleagues at work as long as she's not stealing time from the company by evangelizing when she's supposed to be working and everywhere else she has an opportunity to be a light in the darkness and declare the gospel of Jesus Christ, right?

39:28

Yeah, and the same thing, I mean think about going back to the example of teaching, Paul tells us that women are not to teach or have authority over a man or over men, and we know though that in certain contexts women are most definitely going to teach and are called to teach like their children at home or their relatives or again thinking of perhaps lost co -workers or things like that, so of course then you're talking evangelism, but so yeah

40:00

I think it's similar in that context, but yeah again I think the outline for the evangelist as far as an office bearer goes would be 1

40:08

Timothy 3 and Titus 1. We have Larry in Sacramento, California who has a question.

40:16

Are you currently preaching back on college campuses, and if so, is the spiritual climate any different now than before COVID?

40:27

Feel free to elaborate on your thoughts. Yeah, so I actually just left the college campus about an hour ago, two hours ago, and you know what is interesting with COVID is that during COVID, it was dreadful because nobody was out, and even those who were out, so here's the thing about preaching on college campuses.

40:54

Number one, since we're reformed, we don't have to resort to shock and awe and gimmicks and things like that because we know that God is sovereign and that he draws people to himself through the preaching of the word, and so you know when we go out there and you know we bring our bibles and we preach the word, and so what was happening during COVID is that a lot of the campuses, the people who would actually be on campus, a lot of them, just because of the political nature of how

41:23

COVID is kind of playing out, a lot of the people that would come to class or were on campus were more of your conservative.

41:32

It's not to say they were Christians, but it was more of a conservative base, and so you're not going to see a lot of pushback or heckling or anything like that, whereas once the

41:46

COVID restrictions started to loosen, now we're, especially last year, we started seeing a huge uptick of hecklers and mockers and just people very vicious, very upset with the word of God, and we didn't have that before, and so I think what the thing was is that now you were having more of the, again it's just the way it kind of shakes out with COVID right now, just politically people more on the left or secular that were coming out, and they're the ones that usually create the big scenes when we're preaching, and so it's been a lot different actually now that COVID has ended, but as far as like is it different now than let's say before COVID?

42:34

I think it is. I think it is. It's kind of hard to say. I think people are certainly a little more amped up, and the atmosphere, it does seem to be a little more rambunctious.

42:45

You know, our signs are getting stolen a lot more often. Yeah, it seems like people are more prone to maybe step over some of the lines of even the law just, you know, just because there does seem to be this breakdown all over, so, but yeah, it's been unique.

43:06

Well, thank you, Larry, and since you are a first -time questioner, make sure we have your mailing address there in Sacramento, California, because you have just won a free copy of The Reformed Evangelist, The Man, the

43:23

Myth, and the Message, published by Five Solas Press, and we thank

43:29

Five Solas Press for providing a limited number of copies of this book to give away to listeners with questions.

43:37

Here in the USA, I apologize ahead of time for our listeners in Canada and overseas, and South America as well.

43:46

We cannot provide these books for free because the shipping costs would be astronomical for CVBBS, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, our sponsor who ships these books out to our listeners, so please, those of you who are listening outside of the

44:06

United States, we extend our apologies that we can't send you a free copy of the book. And Larry, since you're a first -time questioner, you're also going to receive a free

44:16

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB. Thank you so much.

44:22

We have Renata in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and she says,

44:31

Pastor Denton, I would like to ask you if it is correct to use tools as alphabetization classes for an approximation to evangelism.

44:43

My question is because in my nation, there are native populations and also many, many persons that don't know how to read.

44:53

Our education system here is terrible, and I have witnessed brothers and sisters, adults, that aren't educated even of the basics and are very ashamed to say something.

45:05

Is it correct to use these types of means? And thanks for another excellent opportunity to learn from my brother's

45:14

Professor Chris. I don't know if she was saying that jokingly, but I am not a professor. But in fact, sometimes people will call me

45:24

Pastor Chris, and I'm not a pastor either, so just let's make that clear. Just a lowly talk show host. So I'm not even really sure what she means by alphabetization.

45:34

What is she speaking about there? Do you know? Yeah, I'm not sure either, but I'm assuming that she's saying that a lot of the population doesn't read.

45:46

You know, well, let me address means in general as far as evangelism goes. You know, I don't think there's anything wrong with using different approaches to evangelism so long as, number one, this is just maybe a personal thing.

46:01

I think we should be upfront about what we're doing. You know, so in other words, if we are evangelizing, that we let people know, hey, we're out here on behalf of Christ.

46:14

Here's a gospel tract, you know, however that looks. Now, going back to the question as far as if someone's illiterate, you know, you can't really hand out a gospel tract.

46:28

To a certain extent, you can't really even, I mean, passing out a Bible. I don't know how far that would go if you can't read it.

46:35

But I would say this, without understanding fully what the question is as far as the actual method that she's talking about,

46:44

I would say that one of the glorious things about evangelism, especially if you go back to the days of the apostles and the early church, you know, that was not really a literate culture either, by and large.

47:01

And so that's why you have so many references that Paul makes, and I think we talked about this in one of the past episodes, as far as all the different times in Paul's epistles, where he specifically mentions something about, you heard the gospel and you believed it.

47:19

And he specifically mentions hearing with faith, or you heard it, or how, think about Romans, how will they hear without a preacher?

47:26

Faith comes by hearing. And so I would just say, you know, when we go about evangelism, just to remember that the power of God to salvation is in the gospel that we share.

47:40

And it's not, you know, it's not in the means, it's not in the method, it's not in even the friendships that we establish.

47:49

There's nothing wrong with being friendly. We should be friendly and respectful and patient and everything else. But it's to say that ultimately the power, when it comes to evangelism, is in the gospel.

48:00

So if we're sharing that message of Christ with people, if we're sharing Christ, whether it is a gospel tract, whether it's the scriptures themselves, whether it's if they can't read with our mouth, just verbalizing that, then

48:17

I would say that's exactly what God tells us to do. Let me say this, though, too,

48:23

Chris, if she's referencing, if it's something like pictures, let's say if you just have a card with some pictures on it, you know, and there's no content behind that,

48:32

I don't think that would quite qualify as evangelism. It's almost like think of the

48:37

Lord's Supper without the word, you know, explaining what that is. I mean, it's just bare symbolism at that point, and so there has to be some kind of informational content about Christ that's being shared with that, that I would say as far as evangelism goes.

48:57

Well, thank you, Renata, and I hope you keep listening to Iron Trumpet and Zion Radio and keep spreading the word about the program in Brazil and beyond.

49:07

We have Grady in Ashboro, North Carolina, one of our favorite listeners and questioners in our audience.

49:16

We have a question from Grady that says, Greetings, brothers.

49:22

As a Reformed Baptist, I see more brethren evangelizing than before I came to the

49:28

Doctrines of Grace. I see brothers street preaching, evangelizing on the internet, and podcasts.

49:34

Would you consider these doing the work of an evangelist? Yes, yes,

49:39

I would. Yeah, and even, for sure, preaching, open -air preaching, street preaching, a lot of the stuff going on on the internet, you know, as far as people evangelizing there, yeah, yeah, for sure.

49:51

I think, you know, evangelism is sharing the gospel with the lost, and so I don't know.

49:57

Now, podcasts might be a little different, though, because I guess it depends on who the audience is with the podcasts, but yeah,

50:03

I think it certainly could be, especially, like, think of certain debates and things like that.

50:10

That would certainly be an evangelistic activity. You're debating someone who's an unbeliever or of some other persuasion of the faith, something like that.

50:19

Well, thank you so much, Grady, for the excellent questions, and because you have sent in so many, we already have your address on file, and we are going to have

50:29

CVBBS, Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, that's CVBBS .com.

50:35

They're going to be shipping out to you a copy, a free copy, of The Reformed Evangelist by our guests

50:41

Ryan Denton and Al Baker, so keep your eye open in the mail for that.

50:46

We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who wants to know, what are the key reasons you want to see an evangelist elevated to the role of an office bearer rather than just a general function in the body of Christ?

51:04

Well, so that's a great question. I think that's kind of the whole purpose of this whole topic is, you know, why?

51:13

I would say, number one, because biblically, I'm persuaded that it was the apostles and the prophets that were extraordinary officers, and the evangelist was not included in that.

51:25

One of the reasons why is Ephesians 2, where actually, and also

51:31

Ephesians 3, so in Ephesians 2, you have two references in two different places to the apostles and prophets, and they're always used in the same category.

51:41

So Paul says this in Ephesians 2, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

51:48

Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone in whom the whole building being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the

51:56

Lord. So he's talking here about the apostles and prophets as foundational officers, and so in my mind,

52:05

I'm thinking, and again, this is one of a few different reasons, but if the evangelist, if Paul had meant to include the evangelist as something that was only extraordinary, or let's say foundational, then they would have shown up here in verse 20.

52:21

It would have been, having been built on the foundation of the apostles, prophets, and evangelists. In fact, could you pick up on verse 20 there when we return from our break, because we have to go to our station break.

52:32

Folks, please be patient. This is the longer than normal break in the middle of our show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break, because they are following FCC regulations that they must localize geographically all of their programming, including

52:50

Iron Trip and Zion Radio, to Lake City, Florida. They do so with their own public service announcements and other local things, while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

53:00

Please use this time wisely. Respond to as many of our advertisers as you can through the information they provide in their advertisements, and if you cannot purchase their products, use their services, visit their churches, or support their parachurch organizations, please at the very least, please respond to their ads by saying thank you for sponsoring

53:25

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53:35

So please, at the very least, thank our advertisers if you can't purchase their products. Also, send in your questions to chrisarnson at gmail .com

53:43

for our guest Ryan Denton on the Reformed Evangelist. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

53:48

Give us your first name at least. City and state of residence and country of residence. We'll be right back. Don't go away.

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James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. So that's solid -ground -books .com.

01:12:09

Always mention Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Before we return to our discussion with Ryan Denton on his book

01:12:19

The Reformed Evangelist, The Man, The Myth, and The Message, which he co -authored with Al Baker, we just have a couple of more announcements.

01:12:27

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01:13:59

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01:14:13

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01:14:21

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01:14:33

The Reformed Evangelist, The Man, the Myth, and the Message. chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:14:39

And Ryan, I had to cut you off because we were entering into our midway break before. You were just about to enter into verse 20 of the passage that you were exegeting at that time.

01:14:54

Was that 2 Corinthians 5? I can't remember right now. Yeah, no, Ephesians 2.

01:15:00

Oh, Ephesians 2, I'm sorry. And verse 20 though, you're right about verse 20, yeah, and that was in response to the question regarding the evangelist as an officer and why.

01:15:12

And I was mentioning that first and foremost, just biblically, exegetically,

01:15:19

I think that that's proper to look at the evangelist in that light, because back in Ephesians 2 .20,

01:15:26

again, you have Paul referencing, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets,

01:15:32

Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, he's talking about the church, and so he specifically notes that the apostles and prophets are foundational officers or offices, and if the evangelist was meant to be included in that category,

01:15:50

I'm assuming he would have included it there, and also he refers again to both apostles and prophets in chapter 3, verse 5.

01:15:59

And again, in the book, he goes into much further detail on this stuff. We can only do so much here.

01:16:06

So that would be the first reason why, but then even if you just look at, like we started the show speaking of just some of the confusion regarding evangelists in general, because the

01:16:20

Reformed Church has never, again, it's never denied that we have evangelists, and I think it was

01:16:28

J .I. Packer in one of his books on the Puritans notes that Richard Baxter was an evangelist, you know, and that's typical of the language that we speak, you know, we're quick to note some, you know,

01:16:45

George Whitfield, Charles Spurgeon, some of these guys, we're quick to point out that they're evangelists.

01:16:52

However, we're also usually in the same breath quick to say, but the evangelist is an office that is no longer in existence, and so you know, the book spells out, as far as just where this confusion comes from, some ways to clarify it, some ways to go about it from here.

01:17:14

I would also say, practically speaking, if you just look at, for instance, and this is just, in a sense, perhaps a theory or just looking at things practically,

01:17:24

I guess, and trying to figure out what's going on. Again, if you go back to what we were talking about as far as evangelism goes, and I agree with the man who wrote in and said that he is noticing an uptick in Reformed evangelism,

01:17:39

I absolutely agree with that, but I would still say that it still pales in comparison to other topics in Reformed circles, and also,

01:17:47

I would say it still pales in some ways to even some of the outreach that we see people who don't have correct theology doing, and yet,

01:17:57

I mean, I'm talking, you know, independent Baptists, Arminian Charismatics, people like that.

01:18:04

I'm not even including the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses, who, of course, they're evangelizing because they have to.

01:18:11

Otherwise, they don't go to what they call heaven. So, anyway, so if you look at what's going on there,

01:18:17

I would say, you know, Reformed churches in general, we do tend to emphasize the internal aspect of the church, as far as our direction goes, as far as how we look.

01:18:31

It's an inward -looking emphasis, usually, and I think that that's because we have demoted the office of evangelist, or even, let's, again,

01:18:46

I mean, you can disagree with me on the office of evangelist, but I would argue, even if you say, okay, he's not an officer, the evangelist is not an officer, well, we still have to ask what do we do with people who are very evangelistic, and we know that they are wired a little differently than the common run of folks, and so what do we do with them?

01:19:11

And so what we typically do is we just kind of, again, we kind of relegate them to the back of the church, or, you know, hypothetically speaking, metaphorically speaking, we say, well, you know, that's fine and everything that you're evangelizing, that's kind of like what your thing is, and so he's out there evangelizing, and, you know, these guys, they're going to the abortion clinics, they're going to, they just have this edge, this desire to go and share the gospel and spread the gospel everywhere, but because they're kind of on the fringe, it doesn't impact the church as much as it could for the good, and so I'm just on a practical level.

01:19:54

I think if we, biblically speaking, were to look at the evangelist in light of what

01:20:01

Ephesians 4 tells us, and even Ephesians 2 and 3, then I think it would create a healthier church and a more balanced church, where it's not so inward -focused, but you have a balance of both outward -focused and inward -focused, because you're harnessing all the different giftings, and I would say officers, in the church, and using them for the purpose of building the church, whether it's inward, pastors and teachers, or outward, evangelists.

01:20:32

We have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, who says, one thing that has disturbed me greatly over the years is when

01:20:43

I come to discover a popular evangelist that travels from city to city and town to town, that I might even have enjoyed immensely and been blessed by, but as it turns out, sometimes these evangelists have no real, official, solid connection to a local church, and they are under the oversight of no one.

01:21:09

They have no elders whom they are accountable to. Is this something that disturbs you in regard to the traveling evangelist?

01:21:19

Right, and so this is the other, so this is part of that myth part, you know, the man, the myth, and the message, because yes, absolutely, if, so for instance, and this is another reason why

01:21:31

I think it's healthy, much healthier, to see the evangelist as an officer in the church, because the primary purpose of the evangelist should be to equip the saints in the church, and so ideally, what you would have is that you would have an evangelist that is part of the church, that is there to minister to that church, to equip that church to do the work of evangelism, and so usually, and I agree with the question as far as, does it concern me?

01:22:10

Yes, absolutely, because usually when we think of evangelists, just in general, they're, unfortunately, we usually tend to think of the evangelist in a pejorative way, you know, it's kind of like street preaching, you know, a lot of times, because I do a lot of open air preaching and stuff, and so, you know, usually, you know, if you tell someone, yeah,

01:22:29

I'm a street preacher, and it's like, oh man, all of a sudden, the first thing you think about are, like, the neon signs and the shock and all kind of methods and things like that, and it's to say, okay, there are biblical ways to open air preach, and there are unbiblical ways to open air preach, just like, you know, pastors, right?

01:22:50

We have biblical pastors, and we have unbiblical pastors. We have biblical evangelists and unbiblical evangelists, and so, yeah,

01:23:00

I think, again, I would say that a biblical evangelist is one who is focused on serving a particular church for the sake of ministry, and specifically evangelism ministry.

01:23:15

Now there are some, as you probably know, who take the concept of the priesthood of all believers, they take that concept out of context, and they think it is their right as a

01:23:33

Christian, they might even think it's their duty as a Christian, to stand up on a soapbox on a street corner or wherever they happen to be, in the parking lot of a movie theater or on the boardwalk at the beach and start thundering the gospel or whatever they think the gospel happens to be, and they have no authority to do so given to them by their local church, and they might not even be a member of a local church, but let's say, for argument's sake, they are a member of a local church, but they're doing so without the blessing of their elders.

01:24:17

Is this a proper behavior? Yeah, so, and I think the first time

01:24:24

I was on here, Chris, I was on with Scott Smith, and Scott Smith and I wrote a book called

01:24:30

A Certain Sound, published by RHB on open air preaching, and so in that book, that's a whole chapter devoted to that question, and so we definitely believe that open air preaching is, because it's an authoritative proclamation, it's not just evangelism, it's not just one -on -one, it's something different, and so for that reason, we do believe that open air preaching should be under the under the auspices of the church in the sense of,

01:25:02

I think open air preaching is a good way, there's so many good things about it when it's done right, but I think it's a good way also to see if somebody is truly called to preach.

01:25:15

Not to say that if you can't open air preach, you're not called to preach, but it's to say, you know, a lot of times guys still call to preach or call to ministry, and you don't feel comfortable letting them preach in the pulpit, so what do you do, right?

01:25:30

So I think open air preaching is a great way to bring them out and to expose them to some just biblical preaching, because, you know, we preach verse by verse when we're preaching on the streets, expository preaching, so I would say for that reason, so for many reasons, it is a different category than just simple personal evangelism,

01:25:52

I would say, I definitely think that it needs to be done under the guidance of a church, and the only catch, though, is open air preaching is one of those areas, too, where a lot of times in reform circles, you know, it's kind of like, this is a little too much, so there are those instances where you kind of have to work through that as far as just being, you know, somebody who feels like, hey,

01:26:16

I feel like the Lord's calling me to open air preach, you know, I'm a mature Christian, I've been part of this church, et cetera, they know me, but then they go to the elders, and the elders are like, no, we do not want open air preaching going on in our community, and so that creates challenges in themselves, you know, so it's like, what do you do from there, and so, but that book is called

01:26:39

A Certain Sound, so there's a lot of information on that, and I think even if you went back into the archives and checked out the conversations that we had years ago, you'd find more information on that.

01:26:52

Now, in your opinion, if an evangelist is an office bearer, must he always also be simultaneously an elder?

01:27:01

Like, for instance, I know of congregations in what have been called the

01:27:07

Church of Christ, or what has been called the Church of Christ, they have been nicknamed

01:27:13

Campbellites and so on, but there is a wide spectrum, especially in the 21st century, of people from the

01:27:20

Church of Christ all the way from biblically sound and orthodox to cultic, and even, believe it or not, liberal, there are even some truly leftist congregations in that group, this seems to be news to a lot of people, but there are folks in that group, they seem to to evangelists as an office, and I've known a couple, a few, who are evangelists for those congregations, or in a specific congregation, but when asked if they're an elder, they say, no,

01:27:56

I'm not an elder of the church, and sometimes that may be because there are some

01:28:01

Church of Christ congregations that insist, they take a very strict interpretation of the qualifications for an elder to be the husband of one wife, they believe he must be a husband, not that he's just a one -woman man, not that he's just monogamous, but he must be a husband and must have children so that people can witness how he governs his own home to be an elder, so they may be an evangelist, but not an elder, but what is your opinion on that?

01:28:39

Is an evangelist always, in your opinion, an elder if it is an office? Yeah, I definitely think so.

01:28:46

I think, again, if we're looking at it, it's similar to a pastor and teacher, you know, it'd be like a pastor who's, or, you know, pastor -teacher is not an elder, and again,

01:28:59

I think it goes back to the purpose of the evangelist is to build up the church, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, and so if you have that, and also for the sake of accountability for guidelines, you want a mature

01:29:17

Christian. In other words, think about the example that you were bringing up there, the reason why, and I know that's probably not in every case, but the reason why a lot of these guys are evangelists and not pastors, it sounds like, because, and whether or not they're correctly interpreting 1

01:29:33

Timothy 3 or not, that's another issue, right, but they're evangelists because they don't qualify to be an elder, and so, you know, because an evangelist as an officer in the church needs to be a qualified person, spiritually speaking, biblically speaking, but of course, a lot of those characteristics, 1

01:29:55

Timothy 3, are morally speaking, you know, your character, things like that. I hold that, yeah,

01:30:02

I would think that they definitely need to, that they would be an elder, yeah.

01:30:09

And let's see, we have Ronald in eastern Suffolk County who has a question, and he says, forgive me if you've already addressed this,

01:30:19

I've just tuned in recently, but I was wondering how homiletics applies to being evangelists.

01:30:31

There are some who seem to think that the actual art of oratory, the actual art of preaching the gospel, how that is done, the manner with which it is done, including areas such as the elevation and reduction of one's voice in appropriate places, and we could go on and on with the details that are involved in homiletics, but there are some who believe that it is totally immaterial and not very important, whereas others believe it's extremely important, such as Charles Haddon Spurgeon.

01:31:09

I was wondering what your opinion on this is. Okay, so, and again, speaking, that reminds me of one of the myths that we kind of look at and take on, because as far as the evangelist goes, a lot of times we think, well, if he's a passionate preacher, and you know, he's, you know, like the gentleman's question is about, you know, there's a lot of inflection, there's a lot of, you know, articulation with his, or gesticulation, excuse me, with his hands and things, you know, he's an evangelist, whereas if it's a little drier, you know, and it's not as passionate, not as intense, perhaps, then that's more of a pastor -teacher, and whereas,

01:31:57

I mean, that could be the case, I guess, in certain instances, I definitely don't see that as a qualification for whether or not you're an evangelist, you know, as far as, well, if you're a passionate preacher, you're an evangelist, etc.,

01:32:11

but no, I guess, you know, I think just the question regarding preaching is,

01:32:18

I've always seen it as the Lord using the personality of the person who's preaching, you know, so sometimes people who are of one personality, they get up and they preach, and the

01:32:30

Lord uses that personality that he's given them, and perhaps they will be more passionate, more intense, maybe, whereas someone else gets up there and their personality is perhaps more dry and not as intense and not as passionate, and yet the

01:32:46

Lord still uses that as well, so I don't think it's a huge thing. I've read the lectures of my students, you know, in fact, if you're looking for open -air preaching information, he's got two really good chapters in there on that, but...

01:33:03

You're talking about Spurgeon. Yeah, Spurgeon, Spurgeon, yeah, he, you know, personally speaking,

01:33:10

I think he's, I think it's a little over the top, you know, his requirement for that, you know, he was also...

01:33:18

Thundering your voice and so on, you mean. Was that, yeah, exactly, and I remember the other day

01:33:24

I was reading it, actually, and he talked about how when he's looking at preachers or prospective preachers, if they don't have a wide chest, in his mind, he's like, no, they're disqualified, because, you know, he would have called people with, you know, like with a wide chest so that they can really have a lot of oxygen when they're preaching, if God was calling them to preach, so I think he overdoes it a little bit, but, you know,

01:33:53

I think there is a place for, you know, I've heard, and I think we've all heard, you know, dry preaching that's very good and very moving, and there's other guys that are more passionate that are also very good, so I think the

01:34:09

Lord can use either one, but I think it's a matter of their personality and the Lord using that. And, of course, somebody who is not necessarily loud doesn't mean they are not passionate when they're preaching.

01:34:22

Yeah, yeah. Your heart could be broken by a man who is preaching the truth, and his manner may be very passionate and yet quiet.

01:34:35

John MacArthur, for instance, is not known for being a thunderous preacher, and there are other great men of God, both living and dead, that have had a more staid approach, but I think that there is truth behind wondering why a man may be proclaiming biblical truth or teaching facts about the

01:35:06

Bible, and he is speaking as if he is just randomly reading names and phone numbers out of the

01:35:16

Yellow Pages, and just as if a married couple were having problems and they were being counseled by the elders or an elder, and if the issue came up that the wife was deeply hurt because when her husband says,

01:35:36

I love spaghetti and meatballs, he is saying it with much more passion than when he says to her,

01:35:42

I love you. You understand what I'm saying? It can reveal that the person doesn't really care about the people who are listening to a message which should have urgency behind it, and even more dangerously could not care very much about God or his inerrant word if he is just very indifferent in his manner, if that makes sense.

01:36:09

Yeah, and you could, I think, so again, so let's say you have a dry personality, and that's not derogatory, you know, that's just the way

01:36:16

God has wired us, and so let's say you have a person who is perhaps, they have a drier personality, but when they preach, that personality won't be as dry as it ordinarily is, because they'll be excited about what they're preaching, but compared to so -and -so, it could still be seen as, oh, he's not as passionate or intense or, you know, using his gesticulation as much as so -and -so, so it, you know, so comparatively speaking, still looks dry, but in reality for that person, he's on fire, and I guess that's how

01:36:47

I kind of see it, you know. Yes, I just actually heard an excellent message by Pastor Richard Caldwell.

01:36:58

I saw and heard him preach at the True Church Conference in Muscle Shoals, Alabama.

01:37:06

He was one of the featured speakers, and he was basically saying a lot of the things that you are saying, and he was saying that for preaching to be spirit -empowered preaching does not necessitate somebody with a loud booming voice or an animated personality pacing back and forth on a stage or so on, so he was echoing a lot of what you just had to say.

01:37:37

Yeah, and that includes the evangelist, you know, because I think a lot of times we think of the evangelist, he's the guy that's like, you know, he's red -faced and sweaty and doing everything, but you know, not always, not always.

01:37:49

Well, we are going to our final break right now. It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks. If you do have a question for Ryan Denton, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:38:00

chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:38:08

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01:44:30

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is

01:44:36

Ryan Denton, and we are discussing his book that he co -authored with Al Baker, The Reformed Evangelist, The Man, The Myth, and The Message.

01:44:45

If you have a question, I would strongly urge you to send it in very soon because we are rapidly running out of time.

01:44:53

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com. chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

01:45:00

We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who asks, I heard that you say that all evangelists must be elders, but I did not hear clearly whether or not you believe all elders must be evangelists.

01:45:20

Yeah, no, not at all, because you do have pastors and teachers. So, no.

01:45:27

Well, thank you, Arnie. Make sure we have your mailing address because you have also won a copy of The Reformed Evangelist, The Man, The Myth, and The Message.

01:45:38

Before I go to any more listener questions, I would like you to basically summarize all those things that you would most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before they leave this program.

01:45:54

Well, you know, again, this is, I know a lot of this has been focused on whether or not the office is perpetual or it's extraordinary, meaning it's ceased with the apostles and prophets and that first generation of Christians.

01:46:12

And so, but ultimately, so this book is much broader than that.

01:46:18

I know that is the topic that is usually discussed most and I don't mind.

01:46:23

In fact, I enjoy discussing that because I don't have all the answers for this stuff.

01:46:29

Part of the reason for writing a book like this is to explore this question more indefinitely.

01:46:36

And so, it has been neat to do so and there's just a ton in the book that addresses things that we weren't able to really get into in this program.

01:46:48

But it's also not just for officers or evangelists who are actual officers.

01:46:57

It's not just even for, I would even say it's not just even for men. The book addresses evangelism in general and people who want to be better equipped in how to evangelize.

01:47:10

And so, although it is going to be, just practically speaking, very useful for those people who are out there on the front lines evangelizing, it is to say that the book itself covers a variety of different topics, a variety of different questions and issues.

01:47:31

And like I mentioned earlier, just practically speaking, we get into just, you know, how does an evangelist work with their local church?

01:47:43

What are some of the concerns or what are some of the tensions that usually arise in certain circumstances with evangelists and churches?

01:47:53

And it usually goes both ways. You know, it's not just a one -way street here, but it is to say that there is some practical advice there.

01:48:02

And that's coming from, a lot of that was written by Al Baker. And so, you know, he was a pastor for 20 -something years.

01:48:10

And so, he's seen it from both sides. And so, he gives a lot of practical advice, just as far as how to approach some of these more tense areas and complicated areas.

01:48:23

And then we also have a chapter devoted to specific evangelists from church history, like a couple of Puritans and Cotton Mathers, one of them too.

01:48:37

And so, you know, it's just, in other words, it's a plethora of material focused on the topic of the evangelist.

01:48:46

And so, who he is, what his office is, even if you don't think he's an officer, okay, we still look at a lot of, even some of the

01:48:55

Reformed confessions on this topic. We look at some of the Book of Church Orders from, like I mentioned, the

01:49:03

OPC and the PCA, not in a derogatory way either. We're looking at that and saying, this is actually a useful description of what an evangelist is.

01:49:13

Vanguard, Presbytery. And so, we have a lot of different ways that we approach this topic.

01:49:20

And so, I would say, you know, anyone who's interested in evangelism at all, this book,

01:49:26

I guarantee you, it will be right up your alley. Most of it, if not all of it, will be right in line with your interests, if you're interested or involved in evangelism in any way.

01:49:38

I think it's hugely important because, you know, we're dealing with a very darkened, and it's darkening, a darkening climate spiritually in the

01:49:49

West. And we need to know how to approach the people.

01:49:55

I'm out here in Lubbock, Texas, and, you know, you look at a map and you're like, oh, Lubbock, Texas, that's

01:50:01

Bible Belt. But then when you start going around and you start interacting with neighbors and with people on the streets and, you know, wherever you're going,

01:50:08

I mean, it's like, you know, this is a pagan territory, it really is. And so, if Lubbock, Texas is like that, you know,

01:50:16

I don't care where you are in the United States, or certainly, it'd probably be even worse in England and Scotland and Ireland and places like that, you know, we need to be equipped with how to approach people with the gospel.

01:50:31

And so, you know, you don't have to agree with everything that we conclude with as far as the book goes, you know, in our position on the evangelists.

01:50:40

But if at the very least, you come away with a better understanding of some of the reformers and post -reformers and their views of the evangelists, because we quote them, you know, verbatim, and then, of course, also with just how to approach people who are lost in our territory and in our community and are at work and family and things like that, you know,

01:51:03

I don't see how the book would not be of benefit and value to anybody who's a

01:51:09

Christian, really. Christopher in Western Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, says, who can you point to in church history who shared your view that the evangelist is an office in the church?

01:51:25

Well, that's kind of the thing right there. It's a matter of how we're defining officer.

01:51:32

Because, again, if we're defining it as an office that is extraordinary or is ordinary, then you're not going to find a lot of representatives.

01:51:46

For instance, Calvin, I mentioned John Owen, Matthew Henry. Some people point to Charles Hodge.

01:51:55

When I read what Hodge says, I think it's more ambiguous than him coming down on the side of saying, yeah, this is an office that is ongoing.

01:52:06

But I think that's part of the reason why I wanted to address this topic, because I don't think it has been researched as carefully as other topics as far as scholarly work goes.

01:52:21

And so if anything, if this just gets the ball rolling for other scholars and historians to take it and perhaps run a little further than I've done with it,

01:52:31

I think that's a win. So the whole chapter one,

01:52:38

I think it's maybe 20 pages of chapter one, it goes through, I think there's seven or eight guys that I look at specifically that deal with the office and what they said about it.

01:52:51

I'm very persuaded having gone through it. And I believe that any reader will once they actually read through the comments and the reasons why some of these giants have dismissed it as being an extraordinary office.

01:53:07

And again, this is not to downplay him. And certainly, I mean, I can't hold a candle to these guys. But it is to say these men, number one, we know they're fallible.

01:53:18

But number two, I don't think they spend a lot of time on the topic. And so when you read it, it's kind of all over the place.

01:53:27

All these guys are kind of all over the place, especially when you can start comparing the reasons why, you know,

01:53:32

John Owen is over here saying this is the reason why. Well, Calvin says something differently as far as the reason why goes.

01:53:39

And so and so, you know, he's over here in the middle. And he's saying, no, they're both wrong.

01:53:44

And this is the reason why, even if he's not engaging them directly. And so it was a fascinating study.

01:53:53

And it continues to be. And I'm still trying to pull as much resources as I can, just as far as people and theologians from the past, because I don't

01:54:04

I'm fully aware that any time you stumble across something that's new, that's probably not a good sign.

01:54:12

Right. And so I'm not saying I'm not convinced that this is new. What we're saying, I don't think is new. I just don't think it has been communicated as consistently as it can be.

01:54:23

And so I don't think we're on an island as far as church history goes.

01:54:29

But it is to say, I think it's most definitely a place where I think we can we can we as a church can can look at it and try to investigate this area certainly much more closely than I think we have.

01:54:46

And just as you were saying before, that every evangelist should be or must be an elder if it is an office, but not every elder is required to be an evangelist.

01:55:03

What is the difference, in your opinion, between and of course, exegeting the scriptures?

01:55:11

What would be the primary difference between teaching the scriptures and evangelizing?

01:55:20

I believe that every solid sermon, if the preacher is obeying

01:55:28

God and getting behind that sacred desk, every sermon that is honoring to God should involve some evangelism, although the majority of the sermon might be purely teaching and exegeting.

01:55:46

But there is, I think, a difference between teaching and evangelism. And if you could explain.

01:55:53

Yeah, yeah. So, well, evangelism is intentionally engaging the lost with the gospel, I would say.

01:55:59

And so... And of course, when I say there's a difference, all evangelism teaches as well, but it's...

01:56:05

Yes, absolutely. But I'm just trying to say that there is a different emphasis in the two that makes them different, in my opinion.

01:56:13

Yeah, right. And I would say, number one, the audience and the way you're approaching it. So, like you said, teaching is an element of evangelism, and yet teaching is...

01:56:29

I mean, there's two ways to look at it. Number one, you know, usually in the context of a church, there's a completely different focus and motive as far as what you're doing with the text, as far as certainly the application goes, whereas in evangelism, considering the audience, and again, this is not necessarily in a pulpit setting, this can be one -on -one open -air preaching, it's to say that when

01:56:54

I'm looking at a text, if I'm preaching in a church, I am going to...

01:57:01

The text is the same, and I'm not going to change the text and take it out, you know, do the eisegesis stuff with it.

01:57:06

It's not to say that, but as far as the application goes, there's going to be a difference. There's going to be a different thrust as far as what

01:57:14

I'm emphasizing and what I'm explaining even, you know, because it depends on kind of people's backgrounds.

01:57:20

If I'm dealing with somebody who's never heard the gospel in their life, then there's a teaching aspect involved, yes, but we're going to have to go way back to the basics, whereas if I'm in a church setting, there might be more of an assumption,

01:57:35

I'm not saying completely, but there probably is the assumption that there is more of an understanding as far as some of the words go, you know, defining certain things and spending how much time are we going to spend on certain things, and so I would think, you know, the audiences and the people that we're addressing or communicating with is preaching to, that's going to kind of dictate whether it's evangelism or whether it's preaching as far as to the saints go.

01:58:12

So, it is, but see, here's the thing, I mean, let me say this too, I mean, it is to say that this is not just for, like, the officers, you know,

01:58:22

I mean, teaching is something that we're all called to do in certain contexts, and we will be doing, although it's not with the capital

01:58:29

T. Well, we are out of time right now, and I just want to make sure our listeners have the website for 5

01:58:35

Solas Press, it's the number 5, not the word, the number 5solaspress .com,

01:58:43

that's 5solaspress .com, please, even though I would love for you to look up the information at that website, please order the book from one of our sponsors, cvbbs .com,

01:58:55

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, since they help sponsor this show, and any other contact information you care to give,

01:59:04

Ryan. No, I mean, you find me on Twitter at Texas Preacher, you find me on Facebook, Ryan Denton, and I'm always willing to, if you have any questions, please reach out through any one of those mechanisms with the direct message, and, you know,

01:59:22

I know you can only do so much with the time that we have, so if there's any other questions, by all means, reach out to me there, you can also email me at christinthewild at gmail .com.

01:59:34

Christinthewild at gmail .com. Well, thank you so much, I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions,

01:59:42

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.