Steve Ray/Gary Michuta

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

The New Website and the Coming Announcement

And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line on a very very busy Thursday. For those of us around the chat channel and the ministry it has been a Outlandishly busy day because those you're listening live right now.

You already know this fact I would imagine anyone well, no if you if you subscribe by a podcast you might not know about this but if you go to www .aomin .org Let's just say the world has changed, you know.

Some people had said that they appreciated our website because it like the great truths of faith did not change with. And I mean I had hair in 2000 I I looked completely different. Yes, I did. Oh, yeah, it was thinning.

Yes. Come on now, but I still had it. I still had hair in 2000 2001. I'd made Stravinsky's. I still I'd cut it real short, but I still had it. Things things have changed. As of today, of course some of us have been looking at this particular template and design for quite some time now, but we've we went live with our new website today and getting a lot of very very high compliments about the website and here comes.

Here comes one of the ultra secret web guild now from the from the mailbag.

Yes using our new contact page. Oh a new contact page. Yes, Ken writes. Congratulations written in Arabic.

They let me do one thing and look what happens.

Congratulations on the new. Ken writes. Congratulations on the new website. When I first opened it this morning I thought I was misdirected by my computer Dell Inspiron 1501. Once I figured it was not my computer.

I thought the rapture had happened. Either way, I must confess. It looks marvelous in some strange way. I am going to miss the old blog site. By the way, you have made a brother in the Lord stumble a little bit.

I am trying not to covet my website. Great work to all involved and I pray that God will use it as he has the other one.

Yes. Well, you know the blog hasn't changed actually it just actually looks a little better and it just got snazzy it got snazzier and it has not changed it at all and So it's same interface for me doesn't look any different for me.

Just the final product a little bit different, but I love the background for those who are wondering I am about 99 certain that's Codex Sinaiticus in the background. I'm sure the King James only people go nuts Devils and stuff like that, but anyway, I Think I may have been the one who no, I think I think Mike attract that down but I tracked down a version of that for myself, too, but anyway, so it looks gorgeous and Obviously we are in the process of migrating stuff now.

Some of the things that you'll click on especially some of the older things will migrate over Slowly to the new format and it's just sort of how things work. And for those of you wondering why it took us so long as I explained on the blog itself we we've been doing this a while and there's a lot of stuff and When we first started rich was just sort of flying by the seat of his pants.

You go out and buy a book on HTML. And in fact, I remember when we were on our first server They told him that it was not possible to have a secure shopping cart on their server and rich designed one.

Anyways, and then showed him how to do it. So the problem is though you do things that way and for a while we used I know I probably shouldn't say this publicly but for a while we used front page and So that's that creates all sorts of stuff Behind the scenes it has to be dealt with and that's that's sort of what was going right and powerful Microsoft.

Yes. So anyway, it's up and If you run across stuff that doesn't work, well, let us know and and we'll we'll get to it eventually but The blog works and that's that's the main thing. That's it's important there so anyway, one other thing before we take a overseas phone call real quick here is to Mention that For those of you sitting around going.

Well, are you gonna make the announcement again make announcement? We are really really close something big happened today Something exciting. Let me put this way something happened today that is going to absolutely guarantee the big announcement is going to take place it any of the questions are now gone and We basically only have one thing staying the way right now and Once that one thing is is gone.

Then then you announce what we made so what that means is watch the blog Over the weekend and on Monday cuz you might be seeing some okay. Just just let you know that you know, maybe who knows but I'm very very excited.

So between the website and that today my goodness It has been absolutely truly amazing. What's what's been going on? So it's exciting, but I'm also excited. I Glad to see this because I know who I'm about to bring on the air is to go all the way over to Okinawa, Japan Say Greetings, Colonel.

I know. How are you, sir? I'm sorry, we we are Cessationists here on the dividing line and so you'll need to Yes I'm doing real. Well, let me just mention that I did. Do you remember did I have Jay on on the deal?

When he was out here, I think a while back That's right, okay. All right, so I I have mentioned moons and many many moons ago my my to then there's the only two marine majors and now colonels who actually like me, but Well, okay, but the only two actually okay.

All right. There you go. Yeah, but I mentioned when when Jay was here and and now Rich is over in Okinawa, Japan and They're no longer majors. They're colonels now so I need to salute and do things like that even better than I did before but so you're over in Japan and You're calling in first thing in the morning.

What in the world would cause you to call all the way across the Pacific Ocean? Well, of course you I.

Kind of promised that when I had some time off because our son Calvin was just born I was going to try and call and that never worked out. Yeah, I had a few moments this morning. Live up to my promise and let you put it.

That's right we did and I'm not sure if we had before. I'm. Rich is rich is shaking his head. So probably not so this is a by the way, really good.

I kind of would find a phone number. That's a great. I did want to you know I know I can't pick up your time today, but I did want to say I with James Renahan the other day. Mm-hmm. Learning about you know Baptist confessions and that sort of thing you know at the London Baptist that we accept and and I I I'm a big fan of confess.

One of the things movement in the southern turn that where people just kind of latch on to the five points and think that they're becoming reformed is and they That kind of a sustain in the same way being people United and I don't know if you if you've noticed any concern there but I've seen some concern in terms of the type of people even that and they kind of have Approach to and it really to kind of work together towards that end.

Well, I remember back in 2001. I was speaking shortly after 9 -11 in North Carolina at Colin Smith's Church, and he asked me to speak in the subject Five points is not enough or something along those lines and and basically it was a discussion of those elements of reformed theology that go beyond merely Enunciating the tulip or something like that.

There's an entire Hermeneutic there's a there's a entire concept of worship there's an entire concept of the authority of Scripture that normally is not a part of a lot of Evangelical churches and so right, you know people can latch on to those those five points and recognize.

Yes. This is biblical teaching but to be balanced then there's there's more that goes into you know. The whole concept of you know, I think it takes time to work the sovereignty of God into into I mean The fallen man the natural man is opposed to all those things anyways.

And so it's right, you know. It's something that we we learn and we grow in over time and in the consistent application of the of the principles to the way that we the way we worship and so. Yeah, I I fully understand what you're referring to there and And understand that there is I think a danger we we frequently refer to cage stage Calvinists and those are the the Calvinists who have just know they're the ones running around and instead of evangelizing they're whacking everybody over the head with Arthur W. Pink's the sovereignty of God and And.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I agree. In fact one of the you know, I tend to Southern Baptist Church out here in Okinawa and You know Mike Horton kind of confirmed this to me that really we do have the scriptures have a powerful message in terms of the in terms of the sovereign grace of God to save us and if you if you really work with people to help them to understand the scriptures as God initiating grace and showing them how Romans 5 to 8 Establishes the believer in the surety of his faith that he he may struggle and he may he may Body of sin, but that his confidence is not that he began a good work himself But that God began it and will complete it to the end.

And what I found is that if you if you stay away from you know destroying people destroying people's listening or attention span by by insisting upon terms and In leading with the terms first and going up to somebody and saying are you semi-palatian?

Are you Galvanist or something like that? And they're like, I don't know what you're talking about I just heard that's evil but if you start with the idea that well Why would you want to give that a sure surety of your salvation up for something now that rests in the hands of man?

And I found that a number of people would even knowing that the categories that we would call Calvinism, right? Yeah.

As you know my my normal approach with folks is is to go directly to Jesus his own words and and try to establish a person in the word first and foremost and then as they grow then you can use the theological terminology that helps them to understand the interrelatedness of things and stuff like that, but certainly, I think that if you can argue somebody into a position and it's not based upon the work of the Spirit making the word to come Someone else to come along and argue him back out again.

And I've talked to plenty of quote-unquote former Calvinists and I think that's you know a part of the reason for that. So so you're in a church over there now, you're you're not going to be over there forever though.

You're going to be heading back.

Yeah, I'm coming back this summer and I'm waiting to find out where I'm going. Yeah.

Now how many times have you been in the wonderful sands of the Middle East?

Just that one time in 2003.

Okay, you actually had a picture of Jay and I on. I did I did. And and your spider.

I use that for cred every now and again to show that I'm really reformed because I know James like.

Yeah, well, yeah, he has less hair than I do. Yeah, but Jay and I have shot ak -47s together. So that's. That you still haven't been through Phoenix yet to get to do that. So yeah, but but I well. Well, yeah, I just don't do it in July that's not really a good time.

That would remind you that would remind you way too much of that place over in the Middle East.

Believe me. It sounds like you need a k -47. So based on what you keep saying about where you work.

Yeah, I think we need a surge around here. Personally I think that.

When you talked about your your big announcement I thought you were gonna say. It kind of sounded like, you know. Momentous like you were moving and I I kind of for a second thought he was gonna stay.

We're moving to Baghdad actually. Actually, I did want to say what I told you and emailed it the Muslim apologetic. I find it fast. You know, I'm glad you're doing that. I always find it fascinating when you're taking them apart and showing what they believe because in Durham to most them.

Well, I really coming for you. That means a lot and you're thankfully you're not alone in having said that it's been very encouraging. And I just hope everybody remembers that about three years down the road and I'm in the final stretch, you know dissertation preparation and I'm really Strange I come on the dividing line as if I'm not already, but anyway, well, sir Thank you very very much for your phone call and I'm glad glad you get to listen to the dividing line over there and Congratulations on the little one and hope you're sleeping through the night by now.

Too late I. Thank you. God bless. That's Colonel I know from Okinawa, Japan calling in today and You can go back. Actually are the blog archives sort of not up at the moment I'm not sure. I thought saw some discussion about that.

I'm not sure if they are or not, but.

Well, they would probably link over to the vintage site. Okay, and go down to the bottom, but I know that that's being worked on to try to get that readily available.

Yeah, you could you could do a search and track down the stuff I put up during the Gulf War with with the marine majors at that time. They're up. They're up. Okay, okay. Yes, Micah tells us that they're up.

And so if Micah says it then it must be true. So anyway once again Tremendous. Thanks to the ultra secret. What was it? The ultra secret web guild. Is that what I called it? That would ultra secret web guild.

Website guild well website still one word. So ultra secret website guild, which someone I point out is Uswg which someone said what you swig. Okay, never mind whatever whatever we're doing there so all right.

It's seven seven seven five three three three four one and Adam is calling. Hi Adam. Hey, hey, what's going on?

I really appreciate the ministry and I have a lot of respect for you as a scholar. And I saw calling in today because I saw your teleplatoon video, uh-huh that you posted on there and I wanted to comment on on that.

I actually had the the great privilege of taking classes in Hebrew from Professor here at Trinity and dr. James Hoffmeier who's a.

Christian archaeologist and now this is really weird because Earlier today that you're going to find this strange Adam earlier today Rich popped into the chat channel and he had a guy on the phone and From from someplace else.

I think who Was asking had run into a professor who was saying that there's no External evidence outside of the Bible for the Exodus and He was and he was asking for resources and I had given one and then another person in the channel gave your professors Reference to a book that he had done on that very subject.

Oh, yeah. And then put the URL and channel and I was looking at his bio Not more than two hours ago and now you call and you took Hebrew phone in that weird. Yep. Yeah.

That is weird, but I'm actually going through. I had I had to stop because I've got other classes now. But I actually have his book on on that Israel and Egypt and also and also. So forth. Anyways, I was I was dialoguing with him.

He's a very he's a very. He's been through a lot because he's in a field where He gets quite a bit of attacks from the left and so forth. Mm-hmm.

Almost anybody sadly who is who believes in inspiration who works in the Old Testament area is going to get that there. Oh that the Liberals so own the Old Testament area that you can it's almost like trying to be a Promote intelligent design within a biology department.

It's it's almost like you're just not allowed to. Oh, yeah.

And and that's one of the neat things being a major in Hebrew studies here. Is you get really prepared? For that but specifically on the issue of the video you were talking about we were we were talking about the feel of it mentioned bait the weed the house of David and the guy in our class was saying that.

He on PBS saying how that was all a forgery and everything like that and dr Hoffman looking he said that was on a controlled X X, you know excavation and he's like that's what that's what they said. He said I can't believe that even dr. Hoffman said something like I can't even believe that saw the light of day and then I came in with I Can't even believe this towel pop mess last Easter saw the light of day and dr Hoffman responded with well, I know why that is and I'm like you do he goes Oh, yeah, he's like I was actually on before this mess came out.

He said I was on.

With I think he said Simcha Yakubovich. Yes Simcha Yakubovich and he.

He said that man on this program had nothing to do with the devil. To me he said I could not believe. How much of an anti-christian Jew this man was?

And he's always denied that but his his biases are rather glowing. Yes.

Yeah, and and I just found it hilarious. You know, this is this was long before. You know, dr Hoffman I said this was before this pop-up mess came out. Mm-hmm. And what was hilarious about the the whole thing is.

Watched your video and he said he said I'm just reporting. I'm just yes if I had a dollar for every time the liberals in the Old Testament said I could be I could retire right now. Yes, you could.

Yeah, you know. But I just. But they're but they're the media darlings and if you if you even raise the possibility of bias in the analysis It's automatically taken as a concession on your part and the other side must be right and so on and so forth.

It's just it's just what we're up against. That's why we have to do so much of the communication within the church because we're not get the media to help us right.

So. That's something interesting things, but anyway, I thought I would share that story with you especially in light of your video.

Yes, indeed. Well, I think there's probably be some more of it because as Easter gets closer You're going to hear more and more of the whole thing. I wouldn't be surprised to see these guys back on you know, the today show and stuff like that.

So we'll see what happens. Okay, Adam. Keep up your Hebrew studies. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye. Let's talk with Mike. I. Mike doing good. Well, we haven't actually established one yet, so I think we're probably fairly fairly open for the moment.

I've got some stuff to play a little bit later. But what's what's up?

Well, I'm gonna bring it right back to the same old topic again again. Just because pondering over wanting to know your opinion because a review of the book started a blog my first Post on there was asking the question.

Let me let me say like this when I present that you and I've had I've had a problem thinking through this whole idea. When you be a Christian and You speak of God's sovereignty just guide things along and open theism see but.

Well a couple things. Sometimes they are I mean, let's one of the one of the problems that we face in a lot of evangelical churches today is the idea that we just Automatically give credence to any profession of faith, even if there's nothing that comes along with it.

No a changed life. No obedience to the Word of God things like that. And so Some some of the people who respond so strongly may well not be Christians. That's certainly a possibility and when we see former Christians and see people joining other religions and things like that That's a clear indication that You know first John 2 is still relevant.

They went out from us. So it might be demonstrated They were not truly others. And so there is that aspect of it. But you you generally don't just automatically assume that if someone disagrees with something you say That's they're automatically an unbeliever because they disagree.

The question becomes is there Is there demonstrated a true desire to live and believe in accordance with the Word of God that really is the issue people can be ignorant or people can come from a Background that gives them some major hurdles to get over.

There can be some experiences in their life That may have something to do with with some of the hurdles they have to get over and it's a matter of sanctification it's a matter of Growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, and so I know of people who who struggled against The sovereignty of God and struggled against a recognition of God's power and authority and his right as the creator.

Who today embrace those things some of them went through a process where they? Embrace those things because they had to but they didn't like it and only over time Came did these things come to be precious in their in their estimation and things like that so the the difference would be whether there is You know and I've talked to we have these folks pop in the channel all the time these these people have absolutely positively not the first desire whatsoever to Stop their rebellion to to be instructed out of the Word of God to submit themselves to anything that attitude among you know from an atheist or quote-unquote agnostic or just your plain old unbeliever is Very easily recognized when it comes to a quote-unquote Christian.

There are obviously certain questions that you can ask that will I think unmask a similar attitude and maybe on issues that are not quite as Shall we say disagreeable or don't necessarily bring up the same level of Argumentation and concerning moral issues.

God's right to determine the morality of our lives. I've found that there's frequently a complex there. It's not just the sovereignty of God over salvation. It's also the sovereignty of God to determine what is moral and what is not moral what the church should and should not do.

You can determine that fairly easily by by you know asking questions as to whether this person really does have a desire to be obedient to the Word of God and if they do not then there's room for exhortation and and correction and if that remains the case then you have a you know Obviously some ground to be very concerned about the person's eternal state.

But I do believe that a respect for the Word of God and desire to be obedient to the Word of God Comes with regeneration. I believe that the Spirit of God Causes us to recognize the voice of the Shepherd and to hear that in the Word of God.

And so a person who really does not have any interest in those things is a person that I think is is truly in grave danger. But I think we need to extend as much Patience as we possibly can on that level in the sense of making sure that we have explained what we're talking about As clearly as possible because sometimes it might just be the way we're presenting it not to the actual Belief itself and so sometimes that's why having two or three witnesses as good as sometimes those other witnesses Express things better than we do or at least in a different way.

So that can help a lot too. Okay. Well, I certainly I can think of one, you know. I mean he got really close with the pastor the church that he was at and then him with these things or he he wants or should I say reaction.

To the things that were presented to him. Well, the person just happens to be someone you had some interaction with in the past.

That's not not ringing a bells, but do do realize that. Especially in a situation where you have a former Muslim you can have all sorts of issues at that point regarding Their understanding of what you're saying the frequently they will retranslate what you're saying into Muslim categories.

A lot of people for example mentioned that Ergin canners responses to me seemed to indicate that he was translating everything I was saying into Islamic categories of fatalism and things like that and so.

Oh, well, I wonder if it wasn't but You know and I don't know how many probably at least a dozen people wrote to me during that entire debacle and Said have you have you given consideration to the idea that possibly canner is just so prejudiced against Hadar and That concept within Islam that he all he can hear is you saying the same thing?

I said, yeah I have given consideration to that and that's why My approach is always very much a biblical approach and You know, I try to differentiate those things as strongly as possible. But yeah, that's that's possibility and but you know when it when it comes to someone like like Ergin canner, you know, I I Think the best that we can do in this life is to speak the truth and love speak it firmly speak it clearly when you Have the opportunity of correcting someone who's in there doing so and then leaving the rest to God.

I mean, I cannot look into the man's heart. He does things that just just I roll my eyes when I see him being tased in the in the Liberty Chapel. And then making a lame connection to something, you know.

And calling that preaching I I look at that and I just shake my head, but you know what? There's that's not what I've been called to make changes I can only do what I've been called to do. So I just have to try to make us the strongest contrast I can.

You know, I'm addressing Islam too, and I'll be perfectly honest with you. I'm I don't want this to sound wrong, but I Hope he does not engage in debates with with Islamic apologists because having Looked at some of his materials and how he engages in debates.

I think it would be a disaster. The the man was converted age 13, I believe and I'm sorry, but anyone. Anybody who came along and claimed to be an expert in Christianity because they were a Christian up to age 13 and then became a Muslim.

All the rest of us sit around going. What are you talking about? What do you mean you're an expert because you were raised as a Christian up to age 13, you know I we wouldn't give the person, you know a second thought but since it's the other way around for some odd reason.

Folks give that credibility. So I don't know it. It's it's an amazing thing. But anyhow, all right, Mike. Thanks for your call. All right. God bless. Well what I wanted to get to today and I thank everybody for their phone calls.

Very interesting and as always a wide variety of subjects addressed on the dividing line. Was want to make sure the phone lines are open for another 25 minutes. For all of the kind folks who have been leaving comments on the YouTube videos In regards to the Steve Ray Gary Machuda situation and I happened for the first time in months.

Months, and it's all algo's fault. But I happened on to the envoy web board as well. I had not looked there in ages. Art Sippo, you know had started his own blog and so you you could get all the the zaniness you wanted Distilled down to one brief portion of insanity right there on his blog.

So it was you know, it was real easy didn't have to go through web boards are boring to read, you know. They're there. It's difficult formatting and stuff like that. So I hadn't gone there for ages, but then I think the last time he blogged was like in July or something.

So anyway, I went to the I went to the envoy web board to see what Gary Machuda was saying and some other people were saying and and There's just again as is the norm here if you dare open your mouth and say anything.

It doesn't matter what you say. It doesn't matter whether you back up what you say. It doesn't matter where you provide Citation after it doesn't matter if you're quoting the Jerome Bible commentary, which of course is sold by these various organizations in their Libranics library set up in the Catholic study Bible stuff.

It does not matter. It is the very and I've just I've experienced this now since 1989 and That is I was one of the first people at least with Catholic answers to respond to them. Using church history now, obviously it wasn't just church history.

But in other words, I didn't allow them to just Waltz all over us as most Protestants do when it comes to the issue of church history. I dared to challenge them with citations and when you challenge these folks with any citations of church history, they go nuts and You can see this reading the commentaries that have been left.

I had to delete one because it was something about the bald snake had slithered into YouTube and stuff like that and it was just just you know fell a little bit below the level but Still plenty of plenty of the nastiness that we saw last summer.

Remember what happened last summer with Jimmy Akin and stuff like that. Who used to be a big blogger, but now you go that blog and there's almost nothing going on there but Wanted to make sure you know I've left the comments on my youtube stuff and everybody's I hear how comments on your blog.

You won't give us you won't turn your website into a place for us to post nasty insults of you yeah, but I left comments on YouTube and Then I tried to leave a response on Gary Machuda's video Where I invited people to call and it never appeared.

I don't know. I don't know what happened to it, but oh. Well, so that the phone lines are open eight seven seven seven five three three three four one for all of you Who have been saying Oh Steve Ray's scholarship is?

Exemplary and it's been defended yet once again well here's your chance and I'll tell you what since it takes time to To dial that number. Let's listen to to that phone call. Let's listen to the whole thing again and listen to it all at once so you can hear exactly why?

When I first started Listening to this Catholic answers program. I got to this point and I was I said in channel I said I can't believe he just said this this this is unbelievable. And so I sent some other people in the channel to go listen to it and all of them who knew anything about church history.

You're going I can't what what? Why didn't somebody stop him? Why didn't somebody correct him? Well, and then when I did Well, everything broke loose. So let's let's listen to the phone call from from Steve that came in a week ago Monday.

To Catholic answers live for Steve Ray on the subject of Jerome. Here we go.

My question is about st. Jerome, and I know you kind of mentioned him before a little bit and I've heard that he was. Some people claim him to be kind of a rogue and that he got shunned away from Rome shouldn't be in the Bible.

Is that true. The reason that he gives for lizards of Bethlehem where he said they continued to haunt him. So, you know the Saints are a lot like us. He went out there at the of it and to the Latin and yes.

He tended to go to the point. And by the way, he stood out and there's an excellent book I'm going to suggest that you get by a good friend of mine named Gary Masuda and it's called why Catholic Bible a very Easy read and he gives all of the documentation of Jerome went to the east and he was there with the Jews in Israel and he accepted the Hebrew can included all of and in fact I'll just close with this Jerome even used the deuter and my friend knows that that even towards the end of his life Jerome own in that and the whole and by the way, they weren't even taken out of Protestant Bibles until the 1800s.

All right. Thank you very much. You're welcome Jason. Thanks for the call.

Jerome, the Deuterocanon, and the History of the Biblical Canon

Well, there you go played the whole thing including the advertisement for Gary Masuda's book. So you can hear the whole thing. Did he what was the question that was asked did? Jerome believe that the deuterocanonicals were inspired and should be a part of the Bible and Steve Ray in Responding said that he was alone and unique in that viewpoint and that all the rest of the church fathers held to the deuterocanonicals now if if you had not been watching the videos I've been putting up if you hadn't been doing reading and You heard that or let's put yourself in the position of the standard listener.

To Catholic answers live and That means you are going to give credibility to Steve Ray. Steve Ray has written a number of books. Ignatius press puts out Steve Ray's books. He has made all sorts of movies.

About the early church fathers. In fact, we have time I'll go back and play some of his comments there because you may have noticed I've put videos up Comparing very clearly the mishandling of Ignatius, for example by Steve Ray with a dividing line we did Back in 2004 almost four years ago now where I was teaching a Seminary level class on the special topics in patristics and we went through The section the letter to the Smyrnians by Ignatius provided the contrast there.

You can either we watch all five of those videos on my YouTube thing or just wait for each Friday between now and the end of February and it'll appear on the blog. So whichever way you want to do that, but provide a lot of response those things, but the average Catholic is going well, you know this guy's putting out movies and Films and books and he's being promoted and I didn't I didn't hear Catholic answers say anything there.

I didn't hear Jerry Usher go. Well, you you know Steve That that doesn't seem quite. You know, that's not what I've heard, you know in other in other context. No, it didn't hear any of that. And so what's the person gonna believe when they hear that?