December 14, 2022 Show with Roger Salter on “Joseph Hall: Master of Meditation”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson,

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener,

with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on

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We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this

14th day of December 2022, and I am thrilled to have back on the

program a frequently returning guest, although he has not been on for a while.

I'm so thrilled that he is back with us.

His name should be immediately recognizable to anyone who listens to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio with any

regularity.

His name is Roger Salter.

He is Rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, which is a

Reformed, confessional, Cranmerian, and historically Protestant congregation

firmly committed to the inerrant holy scriptures and the 39 articles of religion.

Today we are going to be addressing Joseph Hall, Master of Meditation, and

it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my dear friend, Roger Salter.

It's grand to be on board with you again, Chris, and I'll follow your guidance closely,

but as I say, it will be reconnecting.

Amen.

I'm thrilled about it as well, and I've already given a fairly detailed description

of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, but is there anything else you'd like to add

to that, including your use of the Book of Common Prayer and so forth?

Well, you summed it up very well, Chris, but there has been a recent production, which a

friend of mine alerted me to.

There's a new edition of the 1662 with some extra

material in it, and we're going over to that.

It's our manual of worship now, so it means that our worship will be even more Cranmerian.

1662 will be our major guide in our worship and our devotional thought.

And for those of you listening who are unfamiliar with that term, Cranmerian, that is a reference to

Thomas Cranmer, who drafted the 39 articles of religion and was also a

major part of the Book of Common Prayer and a great hero of the faith,

who at one point when the Church of England swung back to

Roman Catholicism and he had a threat of execution against him if he

did not recant his Protestant faith, he caved in to that threat and

renounced his Protestant faith, but later renounced his recantation.

His conscious could not bear it any longer, and he actually, when being executed,

thrusted his hand that signed his Protestant recantation into the flames

first before he was executed by burning.

So that was quite a heroic way to depart

this earth, refusing to maintain a denial of

the true gospel.

Anything to add about Cranmer?

Just at that particular incident, his martyrdom, when he was declared guilty in

the church where he was under extermination, and he declared his reformational faith

again with such clarity, when he was going to the funeral pyre, he

was far ahead of his persecutors.

That's how keen he was to emphasize his loyalty to the Word of God in his

death.

Amen.

If anybody wants to learn more about Thomas Cranmer, you can look up his name in the Iron

Trippin's Iron Radio archive.

I have had interviews, in particular one that focused

in its entirety on Thomas Cranmer with Ashley Null, who is a Thomas

Cranmer scholar, and he is quite a brilliant

brother.

And so if you look that up, you could either type in Ashley Null's last name,

N as in Nancy, U -L -L, or you could type in Thomas Cranmer, C -R -A

-N as in Nancy, M as in Michael, E -R.

Well, today you have chosen to discuss Joseph Hall,

master of meditation.

If you could tell us, who was Joseph Hall?

Well, Joseph Hall, originally I came across him in a compilation of

17th century poetry, and he was

included in the volume as a satirist.

It was religious satire, but I was interested in reading one or two of his poems.

And then on reading Thomas Scott's history of the Synod of

God, I noticed references to Joseph Hall.

So I thought, this is someone of great interest, I must pursue my understanding

of him.

And the more I read of him, the more I began to admire this

great man of God, one of the greatest of the Puritans of his era, a man of the

Reformation undoubtedly, and one of my greatest finds, Chris, was when I was in

Cambridge in England.

I went into a bookshop, not particularly looking for anything in particular, but as I was browsing

through the secondhand books, I found a biography of Bishop Joseph Hall,

a biographical and critical study by a scholar called Frank Livingston

Huntley.

And I've got that book and I've read it four times since.

I never tire of reading it, but it's a brilliant summary of his life, particularly as a

literary person, because that's what Huntley was, but also as a Christian

scholar, preacher, and meditator upon the scriptures and producing

beautiful meditations for the edification of the people of God.

Now, when you refer to Hall as a Puritan, I know that he was a bishop in the Church of England.

Was he actually, in a technical sense, a Puritan that was dispelled from the Church, as were

many others, or was he one that maintained a Puritan

theology and yet remained in the Church of England?

Absolutely.

Like so many, he remained a minister of the Church of England,

shared exactly the theology of the Puritans, but

believed in Episcopal government and, of course, the use of the Book of Common Prayer.

So initially, at the outset of his ministry, he was hounded by the

Archbishop William Lord for being too Puritan, but when the Puritans gained

ascendancy in the Church towards the end of his life, he was removed from his cathedral at

Norwich and punished for not being Puritan enough, but that was not to do with theology.

It was to do with Church polity.

And how was he specifically punished, other than being removed from his office?

He was removed.

As a bishop, he would have had free accommodation, a fairly handsome

salary or income.

These were taken from him, and he and his wife moved to a tiny little cottage

and lived not in absolute poverty, but on the brink, as it were, of

a severe reduction of his comforts and basic needs in life.

So he still remained faithful to his theology, wrote his

beautiful meditations until he died, but it was a great comedown for

somebody who'd been so influential in the nation.

He was a friend of the king's son, he was a favorite

of King James's son, and a great advisor to politicians and

the great people of England in the day, but he was, when I

say humiliated, I'm not talking about his own emotional response, but the

downfall that was imposed upon him was quite severe.

What can you tell us about him before he ascended to the post of bishop?

What can you tell us about, if you are familiar with his childhood, how he was raised religiously,

and how he rose up in the ranks in the Church of England?

Well, I can read a paragraph from

Joel Beattie's account of Joseph Hall in his book Meet the Puritans.

It would probably sum up much of what I would personally want to say about him.

He had a very eventful life.

He was a great scholar, a great

investigator into every field of knowledge that he could pursue, but I'll see what

Joel Beattie says in a brief paragraph.

The respected English bishop, Joseph Hall, was born July

the 1st, 1574 at Bristow Park in Leicestershire.

His father, John Hall, was the town agent for Henry Earl of Huntingdon.

His mother, Winifred Bambridge, was a godly woman, comparable in Hall's mind

to Augustine's mother, Monica.

Hall was privately tutored for several years by William Pelset, rector of Marquette

Bosworth, then sent to Emanuel College, Cambridge in 1589.

There, he gained a lifelong love for Puritan piety, though he supported Anglican

rather than Presbyterian ecclesiology.

In 1595, he became a fellow of the college.

The following year, he earned a Master of Arts degree and was elected as a university lecturer

in rhetoric.

During his time at Cambridge, Hall wrote a collection of sound thrashings.

In 1597, a collection of satires in Latin verse.

So that was criticizing the church at the time.

In 1599, the Archbishop of Canterbury asked that Hall's satires be burned

because they were licentious, but that order was soon reversed.

So he had a very full life up until his being appointed to various

parishes in England, through those parishes, fairly

tied in with the upper class, as it were.

He gained a reputation.

As I say, he became a very close friend and advisor of King James's son,

and I got to know him very much as an intimate friend, and he was

appointed chaplain.

So two years later, he received his doctorate in divinity.

And in 1612, Lord Denny, later Earl of Norwich, gave Hall the

curacy of Walton Holy Cross Essex.

And from there on, he moved to rather distinguished parishes until King James

made him a bishop originally, I think, in Exeter.

And then he moved on to his final diocese in Norwich.

Now, already you have won me over for him, noting that he was

involved in satire.

I love a Christian with a good sense of humor.

Now, when he was labeled as being guilty of licentiousness in his

satire, was that an accurate accusation?

Was it slander?

Was his satire very earthy, like Luther's had a tendency to be?

No, it was simply slander directed towards him because he was

very critical of the episcopacy and the poor state of the church

and the negligence and lack of diligence among the clergy high and low.

So that won him a lot of unpopularity.

And it was a means of preventing people from reading these valid criticisms of the church.

And when you said he was critical of the episcopacy, I'm assuming you

don't mean that political form of government, that ecclesiology.

No, just the, yeah.

That you're talking about the people that held the post, the specific people who held the epistle.

Yes, absolutely.

He was quite right in what he said, and that's what made the upper

echelons in the church unfavorable towards him.

And as I say, I think they wanted to quash these criticisms before too

many gained access to his writings.

I'm assuming that he was a thoroughgoing Calvinist, because every time

you have been on this program and highlighting a great man of history, they have always been Calvinists.

Was this true of Joseph Hall?

Absolutely, it was.

There were people, and I think some people still do that.

I mean, some people have called Spurgeon Armenian, you know, because of certain tendencies

to proclaim the gospel invitation.

Yeah, they don't understand what historic Calvinism is, so they assume since Spurgeon

didn't fit their stereotype, they will call him an Armenian.

It's an aberration.

I once saw an article on the internet years ago where this man was blacklisting all the

people that he thought was not a Calvinist, and Spurgeon was one of them.

He was not a Calvinist, according to this man.

I don't know who he was.

I have a feeling I know who he was, but if it's the same individual, he also condemned John Calvin to

hell for not being a Calvinist.

Yes, yes, that's right.

I saw that as well.

Yes, yes.

The last one of the two witnesses, Chris.

And were Hall's critics thoroughgoing Calvinists as well?

No, they weren't.

And it was Archbishop Lord, of course, who hated him with

quite a venomous approach.

And he was, I don't know, there was

an attempt to silence all of the reformed men at that time during the reign of Charles I.

And so many men, like John Davenant, the Bishop of, oh

gosh, down there in Wiltshire, that well -known

cathedral town of Salisbury, all of these men were

commanded not to preach on election and predestination.

And John Davenant did in a sermon entitled The Love of God, and he was greatly

embarrassed publicly.

He was made to wear a penitence gown or cloak and was

lectured and chastised by his senior clerics.

So it was a time when the Church was being, as it were, rid of the reformed men

who dominated the Church from the time of Edward VI until

the coming of Archbishop Lord and Charles I.

Now, the specific area of Joseph Hall's

life, legacy, and character that you wanted to highlight

is a word that can send chills up

reformed people's spines today because it can have scary connotations.

It's the word meditation.

And many people, when they hear those, when they

hear people who are involved in meditation, promoting

meditation, are well -known for meditation, they fear that this may be

a reference to Catholic mysticism,

even Eastern mysticism.

And today, you have all kinds of bizarre New Age understandings of meditation where the

mind is emptied and we become just a sponge for

whatever the spirit realm has

in store for us to flood our minds as we have emptied it.

And it could be, of course, the people involved in this never admit that

this may be the case, but it could be the flooding of satanic

ideas and thoughts that flood the emptied mind.

So why don't you explain what you mean by Joseph Hall being a master of meditation?

Okay, Chris.

Could I just read a couple of commendations of Hall?

Because some years ago, I was fortunate to get a book published

by Tentmaker.

I don't think they're in business any longer.

I think Mike Gadosh has picked up their publications.

I'm almost certain of it.

Has he?

Yes, for Solid Ground Christian Books.

They have a mammoth edition of Contemplations on the Historical Passages of the Old

and New Testaments by Joseph Hall.

And on the back of the cover, they've got three or four really reliable

commendations because when we talk about meditation and thinking of the

Davidic meditation in the Psalms in Holy Scripture, he

shows how, for example, Psalm

19 works on the basis that

he didn't have a formula.

It wasn't organized.

It was just contemplating in the presence of God, quietly, everything that we

could see as evidence of his work as creator, the governor of

providence, the one who initiated the plan of salvation and carried

it through in Jesus Christ.

But I'll just give a couple of really good commendations on the back of this wonderful book, Chris.

It's hard to manipulate.

It's heavy.

It's a large size.

But on the back, it says, from Charles Haddon Spurgeon, need I

commend Bishop Hall's contemplations to your affectionate attention?

What a wit!

What sound sense!

What concealed learning!

His style is as pithy and witty as that of Thomas Fuller, and it has a sacred

unction about it to which Fuller has no pretension.

The work can be readily procured, but if its price were raised in proportion to...

Continue, brother.

It would become one of the most costly books extant.

George Whitfield, though weak, I have often spent two hours in my evening

retirements and prayed over my Greek testament and Bishop Hall's most excellent

contemplations.

Richard Baxter recommends Hall's contemplations to peace and comfort and

increase of the love of God, and a contemporary, Peter Masters, at Spurgeon's

tabernacle, I don't know if he's still there or even still alive, but he wrote, to read Hall

is to read the narrative passages of the Bible through eyes of a delightful saint and

veteran Puritan pastor.

It is to accompany the great man on a walk through the lanes and byways of all the

events in sacred record, and to hear his reflections and responses of his own heart.

Seldom did anyone combine such easy prose with so many profound comments.

So he's well recommended by the Reformed constituency, Chris.

And without reading Psalm 19, he points out the three bases.

Again, as I say, it's not a set formula.

It's not organized.

It's just people looking around and seeing what invites you to gaze upon God,

God as creator, God as redeemer.

And because he has created everything, everything can be a spur to

thinking about him.

You know, for instance, if you see something made of wood, what does wood remind you of?

You think of all the trees mentioned, their significance in the Bible, but the one I go to readily

is the wood of the cradle in which he was nurtured as an infant, the wood of

the cross in which he died in our stead.

He says anything, anything in all creation can trigger thoughts about God.

And he sees this in Psalm 19, where he talks about the language of

creation, the language of the word of God, God speaking as

well as acting, and then the Spirit's work, sanctifying us within and

cultivating our thoughts and elevating them to that sort of

high and sublime level of

the heavenly thoughts that guide God.

It grounds to us through our meditation on him as God, creator and redeemer

and governor.

So it's very flexible.

It's not something that is in any way difficult.

You don't need to be a specialist.

You just look around and whatever you see prompts you to think of God.

By the way, I do want to let our audience know that they can rest at ease.

Dr. Peter Masters is still with us.

He is still the pastor of Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, England.

I'm assuming that he hasn't gone home to be with the Lord after this past Sunday

when he preached there, according to their website.

So I just thought I'd sort of make that clarification.

Thank you, Chris.

We are going to our first break right now, and when we return, brother, if you could just pick

up where you left off, if anybody would like to join us on the air

with a question on our subject today, Joseph Hall, Master of Meditation,

or if they just have a general question on Anglicanism, and specifically

Reformed Anglicanism, Confessional Anglicanism, Historic Anglicanism,

or any topic related to the scriptures that involves Anglicanism, we would love to hear from you.

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Joseph Hall, Master of Meditation.

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We are now back with my friend, Roger Salter.

We are discussing Joseph Hall, Master of Meditation.

And if you could pick up where we left off, Roger, we were comparing and

contrasting Joseph Hall's method of

meditation as opposed to the heretical idea that many of us

immediately have pop into our heads when we hear the word because of the fact that we

have all kinds of bizarre religious practices that involve meditation that are very

foreign to the scriptures.

So if you could pick up where you left off.

Certainly, Chris.

Before I elaborate a little on his recommendation of meditation,

which I would say is just contemplation or gazing upon God as prompted by

what we see, what we read and hear in scripture, and what the Holy Spirit

suggests to us in the process of sanctification and illumination in our

own hearts.

It was not a technique.

It wasn't anything mysterious or strange, as you've indicated in other

theological and spiritual tendencies.

But just to reassure folk about the reliability of Hall's

theology and thought, could I just give a couple of brief quotes?

Of course.

Yeah, this is from Huntley's biography of

Joseph Hall, and they're quite brief.

He was chosen as one of the four delegates from the English church to

represent English Christianity at the Synod of Dort.

We know that King James wanted a refutation of Arminianism,

and he chose the best possible men, their character and their understanding and

spirituality to represent the Church of England.

So I'll just read two or three brief passages, Chris.

It says, so well, in fact, did Joseph Hall get along with royalty and the

Calvinists that the king appointed his loyal, obedient and learned

servant of the church to be one of his four representatives at the Synod of Dort

held at Dortrecht, Holland from November 1618 to May

1619.

There had been a long and passionate demonstration of the position that King

James would have his delegates take in that famous debate.

And so one of the men he chose was Bishop Hall.

And over the next page, he says, the king to represent him at the Synod of Dort.

King James chose, besides Dean Joseph Hall of Worcester, the newly

appointed Bishop George Carden of Clandaff, John Davenant, the

Lady Margaret Professor of Divinity at Cambridge, and Dr. Samuel Ward,

Master of Sydney Sussex College, Cambridge.

These are all devout and stout -hearted reformational men.

That's me, not Huntley.

But he says, according to Thomas Fuller, who was the church historian of the day,

the king called these men to Newmarket, well in advance in order to instruct them.

Practice your Latin, agree among yourselves, and speak for moderation.

But it is clear that the purpose of sending an English delegation to Dort was to

condemn Arminianism and other hellish doctrines emanating from the

University of Leyden.

In keeping with this persistent bad luck when traveling, Hall, with the rest of the party,

unaccountably missed the Dutch man of war especially sent for them, the ship.

And he had to leave the Synod early on account of another serious intestinal infection.

But here it is, after the Synod of Dort, and John Davenant is again

regarded as one of the great Anglican Puritans, Puritan in theology, if not in

ecclesiastical convictions.

It says here, though the English delegates of Dort knew better than most Englishmen,

except perhaps the king, that Arminianism and Socinian gangrene were not identical,

nevertheless they had to side with the Calvinist majority because of their ordination

vows to uphold the 39 articles of the Church of England.

Writing on this question to Bishop Davenant, Hall said, and this is what I wish, yes,

it's an extreme statement, but I wish all those ordained to Anglican ministry would note

this, our confessional basis.

I do confidently avow, this is Bishop Hall, that those other opinions

of Arminius cannot stand with the doctrine of the Church of England,

which Davenant replied, I know that no man

can embrace Arminianism in the doctrines of predestination and grace, but he

must desert the articles agreed upon by the Church of England.

So really there's a sense in which Dort is in the background of Anglican thinking.

We've got our articles to confirm our belief in reformational truth, we've got our

homilies which are left to us to establish our doctrinal stance.

The other thing that's rather amusing and appealing about Joseph Hall,

although he had to leave the synod early because of an infection, he was

given a beautiful medal of solid gold.

The other delegates received silver replicas almost three inches in diameter

and an eighth of an inch thick.

Hall wore this medal as a pectoral ornament to the end of his days.

He was so pleased with that medal that he received from Dort that he wouldn't part with it.

He wore it daily.

So I think that advertises quite clearly what his theological convictions were.

Well, we have a question for you from Joseph in South

Central Pennsylvania.

Joseph says, those outside of Anglicanism do

not typically know or take advantage of and benefit from

many of the great minds of Anglicanism from the past.

Typically, the only two names that would come to mind by a reformed non -Anglican would be

John Owen and J .C. Ryle.

Why is it that you think this is the case and is

John Hall the...

Is John Hall...

I'm sorry, I think our listener has a typo.

Is Joseph Hall well known amongst Anglicans even though he is

not amongst the non -Anglican Christians?

Well, first of all, I must mention that John Owen was not an Anglican.

He was Congregationalist, independent and one of the frames of the Savoy

Confession of Faith.

So he was not Anglican.

He had a very important post at one of the universities, of course.

I'm not sure...

I didn't bring that name up, so I'm not sure why you're referring to him.

No, no.

I just wanted to be...

So many other Puritans were Anglican and it's not to set

a distinction between them.

They were all Puritan, even John Dunn, the poet.

A lot of his biographers do not recognise the fact that his

soteriological thought about the way of salvation was thoroughly Puritan,

as Puritan as Calvin and Augustine.

He was called the English Augustine.

But Hall is known to some extent outside the

boundaries of the Reformational Anglican movement because of his godliness, his

piety and his comments on scripture.

So many of them probably wouldn't recognise that he was, as he happened to be, a distinctly

Reformational man.

But as I say, the majority of Anglicans and

there are all kinds of approaches in Anglicanism that are confusing

so many tribes within the movement.

But the fact is that most of them have a detestation of

Reformational doctrine.

Although predestination is at the heart of our movement, Calvin...

Sorry, Cranmer was wanting to construct his whole notion of the

Church and how it should operate on the doctrine of predestination.

Very few people recognise that and it's why the majority of churchmen into, you

know, the following generations and centuries even despised Cranmer.

You never heard much about him.

He was always replaced by Richard Hooker.

And the terrible thing is, from the point of view of Reformational faith, Hooker

agreed with Cranmer on the doctrines of grace.

But the high church wanted to block this particular approach out.

That's why it doesn't spread because the majority of Anglicans do not accept the 39 articles.

They think of them as a museum piece from the 17th century and problems that were discussed

then.

We know, and we look at it, we know from its intent that it is a confession of faith.

And if we take the theology and the grammatical expression of the Reformers, we know that that

is a Calvinistic confession of faith.

Yes, and it's interesting and it's interesting that I have had

Arminian and Anglo -Catholic Anglicans protest

some of the statements made by you and other Anglicans that I've had on the show, who will say that Hooker

was an Arminian and they will say that even Cranmer was a sacerdotalist.

They wouldn't use that name, that word.

They would be clear that they were teaching that Cranmer had a

more Romish understanding of the sacraments.

Oh gosh, that's stupendously wrong, Chris.

I mean, I don't know how these distortions even become current.

They're simply not right.

And I don't think the people are really being honest.

I think they're manipulating certain statements out of context.

Cranmer and Calvin did not believe in the high church and

Catholic point of view with regard to the sacraments.

And there are distinct statements everywhere in their writings.

Even the Thirty -Nine Articles condemns the idolatry of Rome in regard to the sacraments.

They do.

They do.

It's either ignorance or prejudice that makes people make statements like this.

And I'm going to be blunt because these people have spread these untruths throughout the last centuries

since the time of Cranmer and Hall.

Strictly speaking, Chris, and I'm not saying this out of prejudice, but of

confessional conscientiousness.

We have a confession that Anglican ministers in most of our providences are meant to

subscribe to.

If that's the case, there should be no Armenians or semi -Pelagians in

Anglican pulpits.

Because predestination is at the center of our faith.

It so magnifies the sovereignty of God, the beauty of his love that cannot be altered

from all eternity.

He has his grip on his people from beginning to end and is wholly the author of their

salvation.

Anything that falls short of that diminishes the glory of the triune God and of Jesus Christ,

our Savior.

It says his work is incomplete, that his accomplishment is insufficient.

You know, Wesley and others, strictly speaking, should not

have been Anglican.

And there are various reasons one could give to explain this.

But it's just disloyalty to the word of God.

It's just shutting one's eyes to history and grammatical and historical

documents that we know what they mean because of their authors.

I'm going to say this, there is a lot of lying and hiding from the truth

and distorting it within the Anglican communion.

And I think that's the reason for its current weakness and its crumbling condition.

And of course, today, in our day and age, people are rejoicing when they even

learn of a Christian who is an Anglican rector or even bishop

who even believes in the inerrancy of Scripture and so on.

But we have to go to our midway break right now.

Let me remind my guest please be as still and silent as possible

because the last time we were on a break it sounded like there was machine gun fire and other

things in the background because everything is magnified like a

thousand times over.

Even the placing of a cup on a table sounds like a hammer blow.

So just keep in mind to try your best to be as still and quiet as possible.

This is the midway break which is longer than the other breaks, folks.

So please use this time wisely.

Write down as much of the information provided by our advertisers as possible so that you can more frequently

respond to our advertisers.

And also send in your questions to Roger Salt or to chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Is that not correct, my brother Roger?

Absolutely true, Chris.

And there's some excellent books.

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Well, I could recommend some right now.

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Always mention when making a purchase that you heard about them from Chris Arnson of Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

Before I return to Roger Salter, I just have a couple of other announcements to make.

Folks, if you really love this show, we are in urgent need of your financial help.

We have never recovered financially from the coronavirus pandemic hysteria

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The giving to Iron Trip and Zion Radio plummeted after that and

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We've never bounced back.

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Now, last but not least, if you are not a member of a Christ honoring, biblically faithful,

doctrinally solid, theologically sound church like St. Matthew's Anglican Church of Birmingham, Alabama,

then please send me an email to chrisarmsen at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.

I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches spanning the globe, and I've helped many people in our audience

all over the world find churches sometimes even within just a few minutes from where they live.

So if that is the case with you or someone you love, send me an email to chrisarmsen at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line.

That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Roger Salter, our guest today, chrisarmsen at

gmail .com, chrisarmsen at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

And I don't normally give the full name of listeners who send in questions,

but since I want to promote the ministry of this listener, I will give his full name.

His name is Donald Philip Veach from Camp Lejeune, North Carolina,

and he runs and operates a Facebook page called TWISSE

House, T -W -I -S -S -E.

I urge everyone listening to visit that page, TWISSE House, Reform

Theology, Reform Prayer Book Churchmanship.

And that is named after a great figure

from Anglicanism in both the 16th and 17th centuries.

Life spanned from the middle of the 16th approximately through the

middle of the 17th century.

And our listener, Donald Philip Veach, asks, I'm looking, I just had the

question right in front of me.

Here it is.

I'm actually going to break up.

He has a couple of questions, so I will read the first one to you.

Brother Roger, do you see any signs of hope in American Anglicanism

that has reformed Cranmerian, Bucerian, and he's referring to Martin Bucer, obviously,

and Calvinist Anglicanism?

Educational sites for potential ordnance?

And I will read his second question after that.

Roger, did you hear that?

Yes, I did.

And I'm pondering hard.

And I'm not optimistic by what I see at the moment,

but God can do great things unsurprisingly.

And when he intervenes, marvelous things happen beyond our expectations.

But I do not see anything specifically that encourages me to think

that a good, solid Reformational Anglicanism is being championed to any

great extent.

There are a lot of reformed Anglicans around, but there doesn't seem to be a cohesive

group of them who are prepared to make it clear to folk that there is a

united fellowship within Anglicanism and its various expressions that cherish

the Reformation, our articles, and the lives and teachings of those men

that Dom mentioned.

There's a paucity of strong, good, undiluted Anglicanism.

There's an Evangelicalism that is rather weak and stops short of being thoroughly

scriptural for fear, for distaste of certain doctrines.

I'm sure a lot of it is due to misunderstanding or distortion of what is propounded.

But the fact is, I see nothing at the moment that one would say and endorse this is

straightforward Anglicanism in terms of an affiliation or organized movement.

So I understand what Donald is concerned about, and I share that.

And my heart breaks not to be too emotional and affective, but to say, I

feel there's a great disloyalty among Anglicans, Anglo -Catholic liberals

and Evangelicals when it comes to the pure Word of God.

And I can hear in my ears my dear friend Bill Shishko's

voice ringing in a gentle chastisement for

mispronouncing Bootserian for Martin Bootser.

I said Booser because that's the way it's spelled.

But as soon as it came out of my mouth, I could hear Bill Shishko saying, it's pronounced Bootserian, Chris.

But the Donald...

Not popularly, Chris, Booser is the way we

pronounce it in English.

Oh, really?

And he was in England and he was the way he was in England for a considerable period of time.

And that's how his name was pronounced there.

And it comes to us through literature and verbal expression.

Oh, okay.

Well, then I feel a little bit vindicated.

We don't say Luther correctly.

It's Martin Luther.

Ah.

We don't say Calvin correctly.

It's Corvin.

We're getting a bit too precise about some of these things.

And of course,.

People may be hesitant to use the word looter, especially when we all know what happens during

blackouts and other things in major cities when looters...

Could I just say something quickly?

Sure.

Along with Calvin, my favorite reformer is Peter Marta Vermigli.

But everybody pronounces his name as it reads, Vermigli.

But in Italy, it's Vermigli.

But I've never heard a scholar speaking about this man say Vermigli, which is the correct

Italian pronunciation.

We speak in English.

Well, I love clams over Vermigli in my local Italian restaurant.

No, I'm just kidding.

Donald Philip Veatch's second question.

What are the impediments in terms of personnel and schools?

He means in regard to his first question, what are the impediments to

reformed Cranmerian, Bucerian and Calvinist Anglicanisms?

Anglicanism in schools.

What are the impediments?

Schools in terms of seminaries, universities and colleges.

I'm assuming that's what he means.

Yes, that's fine.

I wasn't quite sure what was meant.

It's a very comprehensive term here.

And again, one is not optimistic.

You do have tutors and seminary faculty

members who are very loyal to the reformed faith, unswervingly so.

And I suppose you could name a number of good, devout

Presbyterian colleges that are very loyal to the truths of the

Reformation.

Anglicanism, it's not quite so clear cut.

Again, I go back to this idea that human nature, even educated,

aesthetic human nature and theological conviction, does not by nature

like the truths of the word of God.

Human helplessness and sinfulness, divine sovereignty and eternal election.

These are things that people react against, cringe from and depart from.

And again, I think in many cases, it's prejudice, cowardice

and trimming the word of God and compromising the divine revelation.

So I don't have a strong hope at the moment for the

voicing of the truth of the word in a thoroughgoing way or for education

that is absolutely loyal to the principles of the

Reformational movement and church.

Okay, and lastly, Donald Philip Veitch says, perhaps

you and I, he's talking about you, brother, Roger, perhaps you and I can do a Zoom meeting on

Reformed Anglicanism for our Facebook page, Twist House, for Reformed Churchmen and

Reformed Prayer Book Churchmen.

As always, best regards.

So you can dialogue with Donald Philip Veitch over that.

Perhaps you can establish something like that.

And by the way, for those of you who want to look that up on Facebook, Twist House, it's

T -W -I -S -S -E, as in Edward, Twist House.

And do you want to respond in any way to brother Veitch on that list?

My warmest greetings to Donald.

We met once at a meeting of Ashley Null here in Birmingham.

And I'm very fond of Donald and regard his friendship as of immense

benefit to me.

And I welcome so much his standing forcefully

for the truth.

We simply blunt it and dilute it.

And it's a great shame because again, I go back to this idea that the weakness of the church in

our time is because we do not honour the full, plain

revelation of the Lord himself.

His truth glorifies him.

We reduce that glory through various

moderating views of his will and his ways.

God is absolutely sovereign.

And we human beings take to ourselves far too much

independence from him and lack of conformity to his

will.

And we simply do not recognise that before him, we are

absolutely nothing as creatures because we depend on his sustenance continually.

And as believers, we are just denying the most beautiful

and soul -encouraging truth that scripture brings to us.

The eternal love of God for his people, his effectual call, his

preservation of his saints all through life into the kingdom of glory.

I feel I'm saying things that are almost cliched and not as well as I'd like to say them,

Chris.

But I endorse Donald's particular posture on these matters.

And I want to thank him for routinely promoting Iron Trump and Zion Radio,

especially but not exclusively when I have Anglican guests on.

He even has promoted the show very enthusiastically when I have non

-Anglican reform guests that he is particularly fond of.

So I want to thank him for that.

We have an anonymous listener.

And this anonymous listener says, I have enthusiastically and eagerly

spread the word to friends of mine whenever your dear friend Roger

Salter is a guest on Iron Trump and Zion Radio.

However, one of these friends is an Anglo -Catholic,

and he has told me that Roger, with all due respect, should not describe himself as

an Anglican since St. Matthew's is an independent church and therefore with no bishop.

That is a crucial element of Anglicanism, therefore he should not describe himself as

Anglican.

How do you respond to people who make that kind of charge?

A little bluntly, Chris.

As you know, I've had a lot of health problems the last few weeks and I'm not in top form.

But bluntly, I say the thing that is least important in Anglicanism is

episcopacy.

I doubt that if Cranmer lived two decades longer, we would

find a great modification of episcopacy as we found recommended by

Richard Baxter and Archbishop Usher, where they

delegated more responsibility and authority to synodical government.

Yes, I don't have a bishop.

I've had various bishops, and when you look at some of the bishops available to us, we'd rather not have them.

Bishops can be a curse to the church as well as a blessing.

And we don't cling to some historical idea of the

apostolic succession, which is just by touching a person's head.

Apostolic succession is faithfulness to the gospel.

And that is what Anglicanism is fundamentally about.

I've had bishops I'd rather put on a horse, whack the horse's bottom and see them disappear into the distance.

They'd be a great handicap for the church.

Look at the English bishops for a start, and yet that church is no longer Anglican in principle

or conviction or character or evangelism.

So I say that I honor a lot of Anglo -Catholics.

I do not regard them as of another species, but I do regard them as another

interpretation of Christianity with which I strongly disagree with in

many aspects.

But we don't need a bishop, thank you.

We've had a lot of trouble with them.

If I had a decent bishop as I did a decade ago, we would still have one.

But bishops, my word, they're a mixed blessing if a blessing at all.

Amen.

And the fact that I'm a Reformed Baptist who believes in independent

and autonomous church governments, I could care less about bishops myself.

And—.

Chris, several years—.

Sorry, Chris.

No, go ahead.

Several years ago— several years ago when I was preaching about this particular matter on

the 39 articles, and I expressed my conviction that a street -corner preacher

who is presenting Christ faithfully and Christ thoroughly

in loyalty to Scripture is of more value than a bishop who doesn't uphold the glory

and truth of Christ.

And one woman and her grandchild got up and stormed out of the building.

But I put very little, you know, import

to the office.

Yes, we need—.

They're moderators.

They're elders.

They're there to minister to the congregate— to the ministry.

But they don't do it in a thoroughgoing way.

That's where so much of our lack of Christian education emerges from— the

emptiness of bishops' heads and hearts when it comes to true faith.

Amen.

And for those of you who think that my rejection of bishops

is a rejection of Scripture because of the use of that word in the King James Bible

and perhaps some other translations, most Christians I know who are

familiar with Greek believe that bishops, overseers, and elders are the

same office.

So I just wanted to throw that in there.

And Chris, could I say this?

Sure.

Until I get a bishop in the flesh, I've got a bishop in Joseph Hall.

Amen.

Amen.

Well, now we've kind of veered off the subject of Joseph Hall, and I'm pleased.

I'm not rebuking my listeners.

For the questions that they asked outside of that topic.

But if you could, supply our listeners with some more ammunition, if you

will, of why they should research and begin to glean from

and benefit from and be blessed by the legacy of Joseph Hall.

Well, after Hall's death, this note was found among

his scattered writings that had not been collected.

And he was being charged by some extremists at not being reformational.

And he says, can they challenge me as a close and backstair friend to

potpourri or Arminianism, who have in so many pulpits and so many

presses cried down both?

This is Hall saying what his ministry has consisted of.

Surely the very paper that I have spent in the refutation of both these, that's

Arminianism and potpourri, is enough to stop more mouths than can be guilty of this

calumny.

So that's where he stood theologically, firmly, and to the final, you know,

phase of his ministry.

Bobby in Hartsdale, New York, asks, could you repeat the

book that you mentioned in the very beginning of the show where you first discovered Bishop Joseph Hall?

And are there any other books in print that delve more deeply into this man's life, teaching, and

legacy?

Chris, if it's agreeable to you, I have a couple of very small quotes from

Bishop Hall's meditations.

This is not a technique like Buddhism or Hinduism or some forms of Catholicism.

It is simply pointing the mind to God through scripture, through creation, and the

assistance of the Holy Spirit, so that we gaze on him, not just with our minds, but with

our affection.

George Whitfield used to speak of a felt Christ.

Our articles speak of a felt work of the Holy Spirit.

We are to be a people of affection, not just indoctrinated heads, as it were, and

intellects, but people whose hearts and affections are directed towards and

absorbed by Jesus Christ.

The truth about him is indwelling of our hearts and lives.

I've got a couple of samples of that.

But the books that I have, four books that deal, to some extent,

some entirely, to Joseph Hall.

There is Meet the Puritans, and that is

Joe Arabiki and Randall J. Pedersen.

I think it's one of the reformed publishers, RHB, that have made that book available to our

generation.

Yes, I have that book.

Massive work.

It's fairly massive.

It is.

It's one.

It's excellent.

Then there's a book that's been published by a publishing company that likes to print old and

forgotten books on any topic, in any area of knowledge or literary effort.

And this is Meditations for Sundays and Holidays in a selection of

extracts from the writings of Bishop Hall.

It was published in 1856.

It's been republished by these folk exactly as it was printed in 1856.

And what is the publisher?

What's the modern publisher?

It's Kessinger, K -E -S -S -I -N -G -E -R, Kessinger

Publishing.

And they are www .kessinger .net.

Oh, I've got to look them up because I've never heard of them.

Yes, they do mythology, mystery and crime, music, anything that is of historical

worth and needs to be republished and drawn to the public's attention again.

Then, and this won't be available, I don't think, unless a good secondhand bookstore has it,

but Bishop Joseph Hall, 1574 to 1656,

a biographical and critical study by Frank Livingston Huntley.

And that was reprinted by, I don't know whether it's a firm, but they

printed a lot of the old reformers and puritans.

They did some lovely works and biographies of great

interest to the reformationally minded believers.

But you don't think it's in print anymore?

It won't be in print.

I'd be surprised if it has been or ever will be printed again.

Well, perhaps we should put a bug in Mike Gaydosh's ear from Solid Ground Christian Books.

Oh, that's an idea.

It may need to be, you know, slightly edited to concentrate more on his

specifically biblical teaching because he's recognized here too as a poet

of interest.

And then, of course, that lovely Tentmaker edition of his contemplations,

which is published not too long ago.

I picked it up in the Baptist Church, Chris.

Tentmaker Publications, Stoke -on -Trent, Staffordshire.

And this was reprinted twice, 2009 by Thomas Nelson.

Oh, that was 1860.

So it's been reprinted by Tentmaker 2009 and 2014.

Yes, and if I'm not mistaken, I believe Solid Ground Christian Books has taken over Tentmaker.

I'll have to verify and confirm.

I'll have to confirm that with Mike after the program.

We're going to our...

In that case...

Go ahead.

Go ahead, brother.

Well, in that case, Chris, I can recommend a book that I did buy from Mike Gaydosh,

published by Tentmaker.

And this will scotch the idea that Calvin and Cranmer accepted Catholic views

of the Lord's Supper.

For them, the real presence was in the spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, being present

with his people as they received the elements of the sacrament.

And to clarify that, Mike would have perhaps still in his catalog, Cranmer

on the Lord's Supper, Tentmaker.

Oh, great.

That will toot the hearing.

Yeah.

OK.

It's like politics.

There's so much misinformation about...

Well, we have to go to our final break.

If anybody would like to send in a question to Roger, I would strongly urge you to do so

fairly quickly because we are rapidly running out of time.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

I want to remind my guest, Roger, to please be as still and as silent as possible during the break.

And don't go away.

We're going to be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the Iron Sharpens Iron podcast.

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Have you noticed the gap.

That exists between.

The Sunday morning sermon and the Sunday school classroom or the small group study?

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smaller settings, well, let's be honest, it leaves a lot to be desired.

It seems like it is nearly impossible to find good curriculum out there today that is true to the Word of God and is

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Welcome back and Roger, we have an anonymous listener again.

Who asks,.

Do you know if Joseph Hooker, who in your description of him was a Puritan,

celebrated Christmas?

Although this remains a tiny minority today, there are Reformed Christians

that seem to be on the rise who reject the celebration of Christmas

since it is both pagan and Roman Catholic in their estimation.

I know that Anglicans typically adhere closely to a liturgical calendar, which would include Christmas,.

But I didn't know.

If Hooker was among them.

Joseph Hall, yes.

Yes, that was a typo.

He meant Hall.

Yes, yes.

We celebrated in its scriptural form of the incarnation and

the nativity of Jesus Christ.

We contemplate on the scriptures that relate these truths to us.

Our worship is structured around the event of Christ's coming to us as the

culmination of the Advent season.

That's a period of time when we're anticipating the coming of Christ as did his

ancient people.

And we celebrate Christmas in its true and spiritual

form.

I don't deny that people can have family times together and exchange gifts and warmth of

friendship, but the Christmas that is at fault and to be avoided is

the worldly materialistic Christmas that has no time for God

and his great act of redemption and the truths concerning that great mission, that

rescue mission that Christ came to fulfil.

To speak of Christmas is too broad a topic.

Most people don't celebrate Christmas.

They celebrate selfishness and lusts and materialism.

That's not Christmas.

You won't get Christmas in its true sense in a department store or a shopping mall.

You watch it, you get Christmas in the scripture.

And one can call it the nativity or incarnation.

It doesn't matter as long as we acknowledge the wondrous gift of God's Son to us

as our rescuer and companion through life and eternity.

Now, are you aware of whether or not Joseph Hall, as the listener asked,

celebrated Christmas?

Or was he like most, if not all, the actual Puritans

opposed to the celebration of this since it is not specifically commanded in the

New Testament?

The worship of the, or the celebration, I should say, of the incarnation.

Well, we celebrate the birth of Christ, which is Christmas.

And we don't bring any of the worldly elements into that.

It's part of our lectionary, our church calendar, and so we inevitably do.

And I've got a brief quote I could have from Hall here, if we've got the time, Chris.

Yes, we do have the time.

We do have the time.

This is pages long, but I think I can bring to you the spirit in

which, and the term Christmas, as they say, is used in various forms in different

minds and their approach to these things.

Some are thoroughly godless, but anyway, this is what he says,

thinking about the birth of Christ.

A strange condition of the king, of all the world.

He could not be born in a base or estate, yet even this he cannot enjoy with safety.

There was no room for him in Bethlehem.

There will be no room for him in Judea.

He has no sooner come to his own than he must fly from them, that's to go to Egypt,

that he may save them, he must avoid them.

Had it not been easy for thee, O Saviour, to have acquitted thyself from Herod a thousand

ways, what could an arm of the flesh have done against the God of spirits?

What had it been for thee to have sent Herod five years sooner into his place?

What should have commanded fire from heaven on those that should have come to apprehend thee or to have

thee bidden the earth to receive them alive whom she

would mean to swallow dead?

We suffer misery because we must, thou because thou wilt.

And it's the humility of Christ's birth.

O Saviour, the humility of thine infancy was answerable to that of thy birth.

The more thou hidest and abasest thyself for us, the more should we magnify thee,

the more should we reject ourselves for thee.

Unto thee, with the Father and the Holy Ghost, be all honour and glory now and for

ever.

This is the essence of Christmas.

We observe it.

And so I'm assuming then that you believe Hall actually celebrated Christmas

since it's a part of the lectionary and the liturgical calendar.

It was a term that was used in a sense and principally religious in his time in the

17th century.

Historically, it has meant the celebration of the nativity.

Unfortunately, commercialism and the desire for money and profit has

eclipsed the real view of Christmas.

So the false Christmas we don't observe, not in a religious sense, the real Christmas

with Christ as our Lord who has come and redeemed us, we celebrate that in my

career.

Amen.

And I celebrate Christmas and I love celebrating Christmas.

But I have to caution some of my listeners that overly

vilify, or even vilify at all, those that have a personal conviction not to celebrate it.

And at the same time, I would caution those that have that conviction to not

celebrate it, that they do not vilify those that do.

I think that this is a matter over which we can agree to disagree because

there's no command in the New Testament that we have a special day to celebrate the

incarnation other than the fact that we celebrate it as a part of our daily walk

with Christ.

But we have to be cautious on either side, not to be too dogmatic about it.

Well, we have about three minutes of time that I want you to have uninterrupted to

summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today, Brother Roger.

Well, I think I could best illustrate it by reading half,

not the full meditation of Joseph Hall upon a pair of spectacles.

He's saying everything we cast our eye upon can be, to the regenerate mind,

a prompting to think about God.

Everything in reality prompts us to think about God because Jesus said, I am the way and the

truth and the life.

He is reality.

We, in abandoning God, have escaped from reality.

That's why there's so much it's irrational and downright nonsense in our time.

But here is him talking about his spectacles.

It's not the full thing and it won't be enhanced by being

part of his total work.

It's out of context, but here it is, Chris.

But as these spectacles of mine presuppose a faculty in the eye and cannot give me

sight when I want it, but only clear that sight, which I have, no more can these

glasses of the creatures of scripture, sorry, of creatures of scripture, of

favors and judgments, enabled me to apprehend these blessed objects.

These are the things we must apprehend, except I have an eye of faith where to they may be

presented.

These helps to an unbelieving man about the spectacles to the blind.

As the natural eyes, so the spiritual have their degrees of dimness.

But I have ill -improved my age.

It was my naturalized decay, my spiritual eye be not cleared and confirmed.

But at my best, I shall never but need spectacles till I come to see as I am

seen.

All these helps that Joseph Hall recommends,

they're about age to say.

They are not the actual sight itself.

It's gazing with the heart and mind upon God, his word, his son,

and all those wonderful topics that we derive from Holy Scripture.

Well, Roger, once again, you've done a magnificent job as my guest, and I eagerly look forward to your

return to the show.

I want to remind our listeners that if they have any more questions

about St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama, you can visit their

website, stm, for St. Matthew's, anglican

.weebly .com.

That's stmanglican .weebly, W -E -E -B -L -Y

.com.

And you can also go to rogersalter .com.

Salter is spelled S -A -L -T -E -R, rogersalter .com.

I also want to remind our listeners to please take advantage of the Royal Diadem offer

to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, where they are giving us, for a limited time, we do not know

the cutoff date yet, but they are giving us 100 of the profits

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I want to thank my brother Roger again for doing such a superb job today.

I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who took the time to write, and I want you all to always

remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior

than you are a sinner.