Jeremiah Nortier⧸Trey Fisher Vs Zachery Feinberg⧸Andrew Curle：Water Baptism for Forgiveness？

All right, all right. Thank you for joining me in this episode of the gospel truth. I'm your host Marlon Wilson And we have another fantastic show for you today another fantastic debate.

I hope you guys are ready for it We have a two -on -two debate. I have Jeremiah Nortier. I have Trey Fisher I have

Zachariah Finberg and I have Andrew curl with me and we're gonna be debating is baptism necessary for forgiveness of sins past Present and future and so I hope you guys are ready for this debate cuz it's gonna be an exciting exciting exciting debate

But before I bring the guys and I do want to make sure you know to subscribe to the gospel truth Hit that subscribe button in a notification bills and miss on any shows that I come up here in the future on the gospel truth

Don't miss out anything. Hit the subscribe button. Please do it now do it now And if you don't know the guys truth is not only on YouTube But Facebook Twitter X Instagram and tik -tok to make sure you subscribe and follow on those respective show from your platforms

As soon as you can do that and support the ministry with a follow or like if you can Also, all this content is not only on video, but also audio iTunes

Google Play Spotify So flow over to the podcast and platforms and subscribe and follow on those

Podcasting platforms if you can and as always I do have some shows that are coming up here in the future that I want to Make sure you guys are aware of all right coming up after this debate.

I have CJ Cox and JP They're gonna be joining me does God decree all things.

It should be a fun one a very controversial very exciting He can get heated at times, but I'm sure everyone be looking forward to this one

Hopefully you guys are getting ready for it after that I have radar and Jason jumping in and they're gonna be rain does the tour does it's a

Trinity in the tour Is it implying the tour or things like that? So it should be a fun debate Hopefully you guys are looking forward to it.

And I'm looking forward to it as well This would be radar just first time on the gospel truth.

Then after that, I have dr Michael Burgos and Brandon Nero gonna be jumping on is Jesus the

Father Incarnated that is the debate premise for this debate. And so hopefully you guys are looking forward to it

It'd be a oneness versus Trinitarian debate And so hope you guys are looking forward to debate and it should be a fun one.

And lastly, we are having a conference Well, I'm gonna be a part of a conference in February of 2025.

There's gonna be open air theology conference And this is gonna be an exciting one. I hope you guys are looking forward to it

Hope you guys were able to go to the last conference. I wasn't able to get one able to go But this time I'll be there.

I'll be there as a speaker So hopefully you guys would be able to come and I'll be able to meet a lot of you guys No, Jeremiah will be there.

He'd be there in the capacity as a debater So hopefully he'll be getting that debate partner soon. Come on,

Jeremiah. Come on. Come on. You got to get it But nonetheless, this should be a fun fun conference Hopefully guys are looking forward to it man

If you guys are interested in knowing more about that Check out open air theology on a YouTube channel and I'm sure they have a lot of information there that you need for that Alright, that's it.

We are excited for this debate and I am excited as well Trey Fisher and Jeremiah has been on before in the capacity of debate

Jeremiah came on on a one -on -one and Trey has been on in a one -on -one debate.

And so now Andrew and Andrew and Why am

I forgetting folks name man? Andrew and Zachary my goodness man again brain freeze here

Andrew Zachary reached out to me and say hey, we're down to debate. We want a two -on -two. I said, okay

I think I know some folks who handle that who will take care of that And so we set it up and now these guys are on the show and I'm glad to have them

Let me bring them in so they can introduce themselves to you guys. What's up fellas? How y 'all doing? What's up?

You guys have joined me appreciate you guys for coming on so we're gonna have a fun time with this topic

We are a little bit behind schedule. So I'm not gonna waste any more time I'm gonna allow you guys to introduce yourselves to the audience

So you tell them what you do blogs YouTube channel, whatever you do Let me know what you do start with Jeremiah and Trey.

Go ahead give a quick introduction yourself guys Go ahead. Don't go for Trey. Okay Marlon thanks for having me back on I've lost count how many debates this is for me on your platform

But thank you, I just want to encourage everybody to go over to the apologetic dog

YouTube channel, please show some support please like and subscribe and check out that content also check out the apologetic dog website at The apologetic dog comm

I also serve as a pastor and elder at 12 5 church here in Jonesboro, Arkansas Northeast Arkansas, we'd love to for you to come by and check us out

And I just want to thank you so much for all the support those Individuals that supported the ministry that were named remained nameless and I just want to especially thank my wife who is the babe of all babes and All of my church support from 12 5 and the fishbone

What about it, so I'm Trey Fisher I have a podcast called the parish reform podcast and we got another one coming out called.

What about it? It's gonna be pretty awesome But yeah, check out those Came my past I had 18 years in the

Church of Christ Although every time I talked to someone in the Church of Christ They say I never was in the Church of Christ and never understood the church

You don't know I went to a church Christ high school met my wife at Harding and she is the babe of all babes So yeah,

I'm a pastor at the parish the parish of the Redeemer in Calhoun, Louisiana I love the people in the

Church of Christ and I want them to come out of it and see the gospel of Jesus Christ and to take that yoke of heavy works off their shoulders and to trust in Christ and Christ alone for their salvation

That's where my passion is. So glad to be here. Thanks, Marlon All right. Thank you guys.

All right, Zach and Andrew you guys are up next man. Go ahead. We kick a quick introduction yourself Hey, my name is

Zachary Feinberg. I am Dad a husband just a normal Christian I do preach sometimes at my church the

Springs Church of Christ in South Florida and Margate specifically I also lead evangelism where we go out there at least once a month and we just talk to people at the mall knock on Doors, whatever if you want to have a conversation, that's what we do

I also have a YouTube channel called let's talk apologetics where it's pretty much just that I any type of Apologetics we want to talk about you can you know, send me an email comment on anything and that's just what

I do I really love it and I really appreciate this time to Come on the podcast or on the

YouTube and have this awesome discussion. My name is

Andrew Carl Again, thank you all for having me on. I've been preaching in churches of Christ for let's say the last eight years now

Thankful to be here. I got a friend of mine who's in the process of building me a website I'm hoping it will be done by the end of the year.

I Guess I'll probably try to hook up with Zach or something and maybe see if he can try to help get the word out

But it should be about scripture calm I believe and so hopefully that will be done by the end of the year and some articles and things that I enjoy writing

Different Bible topics. You can go there and read those. Hopefully we be up soon That's it

All right. All right. Thank you guys for once again coming on appreciate you So we're gonna jump to this debate the premise of this debate is water baptism necessary to receive the forgiveness of all our sins past present and future

Zachary and Andrew you guys are arguing the affirmative Jeremiah Trey you're arguing negative and we're gonna start that with 20 -minute opening statements and that's gonna be followed by 10 minute open 10 minute rebuttals and then we're gonna follow that with a

Total of 15 minute cross -examination both teams get 20 minutes each 25 minutes Should I say 25 minutes each to ask?

questions and then we'll follow that with five minute closing from the audience and then a 20 or 30 minute Q &A from Five minute closing from each team and their 20 30 minute

Q &A from the audience. Sounds good Yes, sir. Sounds good. All right,

Zachary Andrew. Are you guys presenting? Taking half and half the time half and half. Are you someone presenting the opening?

Yeah, pretty much half and half All right, you guys got it and I will start your 20 -minute timer as soon as you guys you guys begin to speak

All right tonight's debate centers on the question is water baptism necessary to receive forgiveness of past present and future sins

I am factly affirmed that it is Baptism carries various meanings but for tonight we are focusing on baptism as the act of being immersed into Christ in Baptism we are placed into Christ and have

Christ put on us as stated in Galatians 3 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ This understanding of baptism is the foundation of tonight's discussion

The New Testament as prophesied in the Old Testament and fulfilled through Jesus Christ in the New Testament Promises the complete forgiveness of past present and future sins for those who are in Christ Jesus This covenant signifies a profound shift from the

Old Mosaic Covenant where atonement for sins required continual sacrifices Hebrews 10 1

Through Christ's sacrificial death and resurrection the New Covenant offers a once -and -for -all atonement

Providing a permanent solution to the humanity sins problem Hebrews 10 12 and 14

The book of Hebrews encapsulates this promise for I will be merciful towards their iniquities and I will remember their sins no more

Hebrews 8 12 and then he adds I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds. No more Hebrews 10 17

This forgiveness is not contingent upon repeated ritual sacrifices, but in the once -and -for -all sacrifice of Jesus Christ My primary focus will be on examining

Acts 2 and Paul's conversion in Acts 2 We see Peter filled with the Holy Spirit in verses 1 through 4

Begin to preach the gospel to the Jews in verses 14 through 36 upon hearing the gospel

Presentation on the day of Pentecost the listeners whose hearts were pierced by the message asked what shall we do?

Peter's inspired response is not you do nothing You're already saved because you've already believed your hearts have been pierced

So you have already been regenerated by the Holy Spirit You're already Christians instead Peter responds repent and be baptized

Every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins or of your sins

Acts 2 38 Repentance and baptisms are in baptism are actions that follow a person's heart being pierced by the gospel message

Through these steps one receives the forgiveness of their sins. Therefore forgiveness does not precede these actions

Baptism is essential for the process of receiving the forgiveness of sins even if one takes the position that Repentance is the primary focus for the forgiveness of sins in Acts 2 38 rather than baptism

It is still important to note that repentance occurs after belief as indicated in Acts 2 37 where the people's hearts were already pierced upon hearing the gospel message

However, my stance is that Acts 2 38 must be taken at face value Baptism is also connected to the forgiveness of sins

Just like repentance is the Greek word translated as for in Acts 2 38 is the preposition ace

According to Thayer's Greek and English lexicon ace is a preposition governing the accusative case denoting entrance into or Direction and limit which is translated as into to towards for and among this suggests that baptism is the specific point at which one

Receives the promise of the forgiveness of sins in the context ace conveys the idea of moving into a state of forgiveness indicating that at baptism

The act of baptism is directly connected to entering into the state of having one's sins forgiven

Therefore the passage clearly links baptism to the moment of receiving forgiveness

Emphasizing its critical role in the process of salvation The same concept on the

Greek preposition ace is found in Matthew 26 verse 28 Which states for this is the blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins

Here the Greek preposition ace is used again in for the forgiveness of sins in this context

Jesus speaks of his blood being poured out on the cross for the purpose of forgiving sins Jesus shed his blood so the sins could be forgiven not because sins were already forgiven therefore

Acts 2 38 cannot mean repent and be baptized because Your sins are already forgiven.

The forgiveness is something that takes place after hence the Greek preposition ace Now to look at Paul's conversion

Acts chapter 22 We have the inspired Apostle Paul recounting his conversion to his Jewish brethren

He begins by explaining that the Lord Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus. Paul acknowledges

Jesus as Lord in Acts 22 10 then the Lord The Lord Jesus tells

Paul to rise and go into Damascus and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do

Acts 22 10 in this instance Paul is blinded and he's brought into Damascus from Acts chapter 9, which recounts the same events

We know that Paul was blinded for a total of three days, which he neither Ate nor drank Acts 9 9

We also see that the Lord appeared to Ananias and instructed him on what to do next

The Lord said Ananias rise and go to the street called straight at the house of Judas Look for a man of Tarsus named

Saul for behold He is praying and he is seen in a vision a man named Ananias Come and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight

Acts 9 11 and 12 Clearly Paul is praying at this moment because the word The Greek word for praying is a verb in the present tense

Indicating that Paul is currently praying to the Lord at this point in Paul's conversion story

The Lord Jesus has appeared to him Paul has acknowledged Jesus as Lord He is fasting from food and drink and he is praying to the

Lord Jesus However, if we continue examining what Paul was instructed to do by Ananias We see that Paul was still in his sins and not yet a

Christian Paul was told to wait in Damascus for further instructions and Ananias came to him and said brother

Saul Receive your sight and at the very hour I received my sight and saw him and He said the

God of our fathers appointed you to know as well to see the righteous one and to hear his voice from his mouth for you will be a

Witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard and now why do you wait rise and be baptized and wash away?

Your sins calling on his name Acts 22 13 through 16 Ananias inspired by the

Holy Spirit told Paul to rise and be baptized to wash away sins calling on Jesus his name

This instruction highlights that despite Paul's encounter with Jesus his acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord his fasting and his prayers

He still needed to have his sins forgiven Ananias being guided by the Holy Spirit Seeing that he's performing the miracle of healing and receiving visions both of which are clear signs of the gifts of the

Holy Spirit Mark 16 17 through 18 and Acts 2 17 would not have told Paul to wash away his sins if they were already forgiven this shows that according to the book of Acts one sins are not forgiven until they are baptized into Jesus Christ for the purpose of forgiveness acts 238 in recounting his conversion in Acts 22

Paul provides a detailed account of what transpired in Acts 9 and the instructions he received from Ananias the inspired man

Ananias Paul and Luke the writer of Acts all concur on the Sequences of events even after seeing

Jesus and acknowledging him as Lord and after fasting and praying for three days Paul remained in the sins This is why

Ananias urged him not to delay But to be baptized to wash away his sins if one wants to claim that what the washing away of sins occurs

Not through water baptism, but through something that happens before baptism such as calling on the name of the

Lord meaning Acknowledging Jesus as Lord and praying to him then several important questions arise

Why would Ananias who was inspired by the Holy Spirit tell Paul that he still? Needed to wash his sins away by calling on his name furthermore

Why would Paul when recounting the events in Acts 9? reaffirm that Ananias instructed him to wash away his sins by calling on his name and Why would

Luke the author of the book of Acts retell Paul's conversion in a manner that stresses

Ananias's? Insistence that Paul needed to wash away his sins by calling on the

Lord's name all three inspired men Ananias Paul and Luke Consistently affirmed that Paul was still in his sins until he followed

Ananias's instructions in Acts 22 16 To wash them away by calling on the name of the

Lord this suggests that Paul remained in his sins prior to that That moment now to delve into the phrase calling on his name

This expression goes beyond merely vocalizing words to Jesus It signifies appealing to God with faith in his authority and saving power in the

New Testament Calling on his name is intrinsically linked to receiving salvation through the forgiveness of sins as stated in Acts 2 verse 21

And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved similarly

Paul said Paul affirms in Romans 10 13 for everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved a

Quick note on the phrase shall be saved The in these passages the Greek word is a verb in the future indicative passive this verb form indicates that the action of Being saved will be performed on the subject in the future

Thus salvation results from calling on the name of the Lord. However, Ananias indicated that Paul had not yet called on his name as Paul still needed to wash away his sins

This implies that Paul's sins had not yet been forgiven The reason for this is that Paul had not yet been baptized, which is essential for the washing away of sins therefore according to the scriptural narrative

Baptism is integral to calling on the name of the Lord for salvation Paul's conversion involves several critical steps.

He heard directly from Jesus He believed in him as evidenced by his prayers to him

He confessed Jesus as Lord expressed in his repentance through fasting and ultimately was baptized

To wash away his sins calling on his name Calling on his name these steps clearly delineate the process by which a sinner transitions into a forgiven saved

Christian Now to give it up to my brother Andrew I think we lost

Andrew Yeah, we got you

I think you broke up like right at the 10 -minute mark. We couldn't connect to you So I'm gonna start the time at 10 minutes

So you have a full tip for that that got a lot of time. So, you know, okay treated it.

All right, so You got a man for 10 minutes All right. Thank you I'll be reading from Acts chapter 10 and Acts chapter 10 and also

Acts chapter 11. Obviously, I'm not gonna have enough time in 10 minutes to read everything in those chapters So I'll read some of it for us

Acts 10 Verse 1 now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius a centurion of what was called the

Italian cohort a devout man And one who feared God with all his household and he gave many alms to the

Jewish people and prayed to God continually About the ninth hour of the day He clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him

Cornelius And fixing his gaze on him being much alarmed. He said what is it Lord? And he said to him your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God Now dispatch some men to Joppa and send for a man named

Simon who was also called Peter He is standing with a tanner named Simon whose house is by the sea

When the angel who was speaking to him had left He summoned to his servants and a devout soldier of those who were his personal attendants after he had explained everything to them

He sent them to Joppa For those of us who are familiar with Acts 10, you know The story continues

Peter sees the vision with the sheep coming down with the animals Told to rise kill and eat because Peter needed to understand that God was accepting of the

Gentiles The Jews needed to understand that this early on the days of Christianity but if you look at the next chapter

Acts 11 verse 1 says now the Apostles and the brethren who were throughout

Judea heard the Gentiles also had received the Word of God And when Peter came up to Jerusalem those who were circumcised took issue with him

Saying you went to uncircumcised men and ate with them But Peter began speaking and pursued explained them in orderly sequence

So here in Acts 11 Peter's going to recount the events of what has just happened in Acts 10. You skip skip ahead to verse 12

Acts 11 12 says the Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings

These six brethren also went with me and we entered the man's house and he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing

In his house and saying send to Joppa and have Simon who's also called Peter brought here and he will speak words to you

By which you will be saved. This is the Greek word sozo and it is in the future tense here so Cornelius needed to hear words by which he would in the future be saved, but he was not saved before Peter had arrived and this idea of Needing words to be saved.

I believe everyone here who's a part of this debate is in agreement that Merely hearing words is not enough to save a person

If just hearing the words saves people Then everyone that Peter and the Apostles preached to on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 would have been saved

But as far as I know, there's no universalist on here No one here believes that everyone that heard the gospel in Acts chapter 2 were immediately saved just because they heard the words

There were approximately 3 ,000 souls who were saved that day or added to the church that day and so I'm suggesting that it takes both the hearing of the words and Complying the hearing of the words and obeying those words, whatever those words may be and this idea of the importance of the words to be saved can be traced throughout

Acts 10 and 11, but if you go back to Acts 10 verse 22 They said

Cornelius a centurion a righteous and God -fearing man Well spoken of by the entire nation of the

Jews was divinely directed by a holy angel To send for you to come to his house and hear words from you also verse 33

So I sent for you immediately and you've been kind enough to come Now then we are all here present before God to hear all that you may command by the

Lord again They needed to hear but they also need to comply with what it is that they were hearing Starting in verse 34 through verse 43.

We don't have time to read all of it But Peter is going to talk about Jesus about his death burial

Resurrection and how people who believe in his name will have the forgiveness of their sins. That's verse 43 but then in verse 44

It says while Peter was still speaking these words The Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the words

All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed because the gift of the

Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also When you compare acts 1044 with acts 1115 when

Peter is recounting the events that have taken place notice acts 1115 and As I began to speak the

Holy Spirit fell upon them Just as he did upon us at the beginning here Peter's taking the audience the

Jews mind back to what happened years earlier on the Pentecost when they received the gift of the Holy Spirit and they were speaking in tongues and When he says as I began to speak this language of and The Holy Spirit fell upon them is identical in the

Greek with acts 1044 While Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit fell upon all fell upon them

The Greek here is epipypto or epipypto fall on come upon It's an aorist active indicative third person singular for both it is identical

And so when we compare these we see that Everything that Peter has been saying in acts 10 34 through 43 falls under the category of as I began to speak

Peter is not finished speaking yet. He's going to have more words to say that Cornelius needs to hear to be saved in Verse 46 it says for they were hearing them acts 1046

For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God Then Peter answered so here

Peter is going to finish the words that he was sent there to tell Cornelius Peter answers

Surely no one can refuse the water For these to be baptized who have received the

Holy Spirit just as we did Kenny And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ So very clearly we see part of those words that Cornelius needed needed to hear was baptism connected with water acts 1047

Which is in the name of Jesus Christ and that's so that he would be in the future saved acts 1114 again

So zone the future tense for his salvation anytime These Greek words.

There's different Greek prepositions that are connected with Baptism with Jesus.

Sometimes it's baptized. It's in epi ace Whether it's baptized on the name of Jesus in the name of Jesus into the name of Jesus Any of those it's water baptism or if you don't take that position if you don't agree with that We can talk about that in the cross -examination section

But if you don't agree with that You at least know that in this passage and some other ones that will we can look at in the book of Acts later on if you want

We can see that it's clearly not Holy Spirit baptism Because Cornelius and his household had already been baptized in the

Spirit spirits are being poured out on them So this baptism here cannot be Holy Spirit baptism specifically says water and logically speaking it obviously it can't be

Holy Spirit baptism because they already have Holy Spirit I'll go ahead and concede my the rest of my time here

All right, Zach. You want to finish it off or you also concede in the time as well? No, we're pretty good.

Thank you All right. All right. All right Next up is Jeremiah nortier and Trey Fisher for their 10 -minute open to statement

So once again, I will start your time to suit who's gonna be presenting Jeremiah or Trey I'll go my wing it

All right, Trey. You got it for 10 minutes. I'm sorry 20 minutes and This little chime is a one -minute time let you know start wrapping it up you got one minute left but Yeah, I start your time when you begin to speak

Trey All right, Marlon. We're gonna I'm speaking now. Here we go. Start it up. So Yeah, we're gonna split it up I'm just gonna wing this

I'm sure Jeremiah's been in a dungeon preparing his I just got done playing golf got whooped too, but Here's the deal.

I Just want to go right now to the rebuttal Honestly with what was just said it breaks my heart for the

Church of Christ. It really does I know why they believe what they believe. I know why they're taught it.

I know You know how I was there and it's just so sad to hear things like you must do this and like to hear the phrase

You must comply. I know where you're gonna see in God telling people you must comply He's gonna say you must repent and believe that's what you must do

And so to read scripture in such a way like you have to do this this and this and you're reading it with this

No heart behind it's just do these things, you know, and it's just such a sad thing But I understand why they believe it if that's what you've been taught your whole life

If this is the the good news that you've heard because you hadn't heard and truly understood the true good news

I guess it's the best news you've ever heard at that point because at least you got a chance, right? But then it's just the weight of this pressure of working and working and doing and doing and trying to prove yourself

But you have to say well, I'm not trying to prove myself But deep down all the people in the Church Christ know it and they're fearful if they die

Are they good enough have they done enough? It's because they don't understand the true gospel because it's all based on their works and their efforts

And so it's it's just really sad for me. I mean my heart goes out to the Church of Christ people who are sitting there

My beef is more with the the preachers who actually read the text and study it and just keep Refusing to see the truth of God's Word for what it is and and to see definitions like faith faith does not mean baptism

Faith means to trust in someone or something, right? And so when you change the definitions of words like that, you're manipulating people

You're spiritually abusing them and I was one of them. My wife was one of them I have a lot of friends and family who are one of them and it's just so sad and but I am so thankful that I get to have a technology like this to to preach the gospel and there's been so much fruit and good

Awesome things for God bringing people out of the Church of Christ But listen, everybody has always been saved and this is a shocker to people in the

Church of Christ But every always been saved by faith alone in Christ alone It's all the way back in Genesis chapter 1 all the way through Revelation And so this is the way everybody is saved by grace alone through your faith alone

Your works will not do it. Your obedience will not do it. You have no bragging rights when it comes to God Almighty He was holy and perfect.

We are not we are sinners. We are rebels, but we are saved by grace I'm gonna stop there. I'm gonna give the dog the rest of the time and I can't wait for the rebuttals

Thanks, brother I want to remind everybody of the debate Proposition in terms of a question is water baptism necessary to receive the forgiveness of all our sins

Past present and future. I want to remind everybody there are two debate topics going on tonight

What is the nature and purpose of baptism and what is the extent of the atonement?

Well, let me start with the latter and tell you that it's impossible for our Interlocutors to be consistent with your future sins being forgiven in the moment of baptism if they believe you can

Lose your salvation if you can walk away from the faith or you can fall from grace If they believe in apostasy of any kind from somebody who is truly regenerate and has their sins washed away

That is a contradiction They they've lost that debate if they believe you can truly be in the

Covenant a Christian receive the Holy Spirit and then you can walk away Well, what happened to your future sins that were supposedly washed away in the waters of baptism?

That doesn't make sense But I do want to let people know I believe they're trying to borrow from our position that says you can actually

Trust an amazing Savior who saves to the uttermost and actually promises that you can have all your sins forgiven

But it's by resting in his finished work and not your own So I just want people to understand it is illogical to believe that any future sins can be washed away

If you can then lose your salvation that is why Church of Christ history going all the way back to Alexander Campbell The the vast majority say no

It's your past sins that are that are remitted and washed away when you contact the blood in water

So I'm just saying if they are Church of Christ and you're tuning in your Church Christ They are probably not your advocates.

So that is debate number One that the extent of the tome it does not make sense in their system

So I want to get back to what is the nature and purpose of baptism now?

I Appreciate our two interlocutors A lot of great verses were brought up. Perhaps we can get into it more into the rebuttal round But they didn't they did not define justification and sanctification

So I just want to lay these two terms out briefly because this is the paradigm that we are going to be operating under like Trey said

Salvation our justification before God has always been by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone

Justification is judicial it's the moment in time where you have your sins the penalty of your sins completely paid for and Covered and the book of Romans is very clear that says hey that happens at faith

Okay. Now this isn't something new in the New Testament Romans chapter 4 quotes

Genesis 15 6 and says Christian the way that you are justified before God by faith apart from your works is the same way that Abraham was justified before God He believed

God put his faith alone in God's promise of sending a coming Savior and upon that basis.

He was Justified counted righteous look God's mind and the penalty of his his sin totally covered in full and so justification is by Pistis this means your firm trust not your efforts not the things that you do

But by your faith and so Romans 5 verse 1 says therefore since we have been justified by not baptism

But pistis firm trust not just a mental ascent not just saying the right words

But a transformed heart upon that basis. You can have peace with God. You can have true

Shalom No more a ceasefire where you have enmity with the Creator No, you are reconciled that verse goes on to say we have peace with God through our

Lord Jesus Christ And so justification this is judicial before God and that is by faith

Paul says not by your works and so sanctification is being set apart for special use

Sanctification is being conformed more like Christ and less like the world and that means we are to obey all that Christ has

Commanded us in our good works in our sanctification to vindicate the truth to the watching world

So I want our audience to understand justification. Well, that's by faith apart from works you don't add works to that or you compromise the gospel of grace, but that moment when you are justified by faith then that brings you to live a wonderful life in Sanctification until we die and then we will enter into glory and then we'll be saved from the presence of sin altogether

Okay, so those are two terms our interlocutors did not define Justification and sanctification and so I want to go back

I want to read a simple verse that I want in the rebuttal time I want to hear our interlocutors address

So the Apostle Paul says in Romans chapter 4 now to the one who works his wages are not counted as a gift

But as his due and to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly

His faith is counted as righteousness Can you please define for us what faith means and what works mean if you're going to say?

Well, this is a particular kind of work. You have to demonstrate that out in the text

Tell me why you think this might be the works of Mosaic law when this whole context is tethered to Abraham that precedes the work of the

Mosaic law and like my brother Trey said We have always been justified by the principle of faith and not by the principle of works

And so if we're not justified by the principle of works, then the Jew understands my obedience to a list of Mosaic law

Which is holy righteous and good can never be the fundamental basis that washes away my sin

And so I use the word washing Okay now and I want to switch gears and I want to talk a little bit about acts chapter 2 and so the major proof text here

Acts 2 38 Peter is saying to a group of Jews who were pricked to the heart

They heard the gospel of grace and he said repent and be baptized. Let's want to pause there This is a

Jewish audience. And so when he says be baptized Baptizo, that's really really important.

We are going to define terms the fishbone and I and we're going to contend for context

Baptizo means a ceremonial right immersed into water that Signifies a

Relationship with God. So every single time our interlocutor just says it says be baptized be baptized

I'm gonna say what did Peter mean to a Jewish audience the Apostle Paul who is a

Hebrew of Hebrews? What did he mean when he used the word? Baptizo well, it signifies a relationship with God It signifies the forgiveness of sins and so being immersed into water isn't new in Acts 2 38

The nearest antecedent with Baptizo is with the John the Baptist He is also he under he is great theology

He understands that Jesus Christ is a lamb slain before the foundation of the world who takes away our sin

So he's constantly pointing to him and he also would have been familiar with the Hebrew Scriptures What I want to understand is being immersed into water fully bathed

This originates in the Torah and so hopefully we get into this context a little bit But in the

Old Testament when high priest would would be fully bathed in water showing that they are now

Ceremonially clean and perform other sacrifices like sacrificing a goat

In blood as a guilt offering or sending a goat into the wilderness Listen, these ceremonies never forgave sin

And so on acts to the Jews when when Peter says repent and be baptized in the authority of Christ Essentially, they would understand.

Oh, man this participation in a ceremony Signifies that I am submitting to Jesus as King and he is the one that contains forgiveness of sins

And so we see two imperatives repent and be baptized Repent the author Luke in his gospel and in the book of Acts Repent is always always always tethered with forgiveness of sins

And this is not just a mere intellectual assent But this is a repentance always the backside is faith and says we read that passage in Romans It's faith a repentant faith apart from your works that justifies you before God And if that is true, then that leads to outward change

And so when we look at repent and coordinating conjunction for you people out there repent and be baptized

This is a command to be justified by repentant faith This is also a command to be sanctified if it's true that you have repented truly from the heart a heart of faith that now believes and trusts in Jesus will

Demonstrate that faith. And so I want to put acts 2 on pause and just show you kind of the strong Consistency in Acts chapter 3 as I've heard the fishbones say before Well Peter is not going to contradict his first sermon in his second sermon

And so when you look at verse 15 of chapter 3, we're talking about how the author of life

King Jesus You are to have faith in his name and he tells his audience Repent therefore and turn back that your sins may be blotted out.

That is so painfully clear right there Right fishbone that repentance is connected.

Yeah, go for it. I want to jump in some I didn't know we could talk about what they talked about But when we're talking about, you know,

I thought that was the rebuttal time I'm not a professional debater like you but when you're talking about acts 238 for the forgiveness of sins, right?

Well, when were the forgiveness of sins when did people sins when were they forgiven when I Believe Christianity teaches it was at the cross of Jesus Christ So when you read in Luke chapter 3 or Matthew chapter 3, but Luke 3 3

I think it's a where it says John baptized for the for repentance for the forgiveness of sins Was the people's sins forgiven when they came out of the water of the

Jordan River? No, they were forgiven truly forgiven at the cross. When was Abraham sins truly forgiven?

It wasn't from the blood of bulls and goats. It was at the cross of Jesus Christ So it was saying for the forgiveness of sins.

So unto the forgiveness of sins It doesn't always mean in something in the future, right because they

Acts 238 is looking back to the cross Abraham and John the Baptist and everybody else is looking forward to the cross.

So it's unto the forgiveness of sins That's another way and that word for ace is used many times as unto a witness to something

So, you know, it's just the same arguments they have. I cannot wait to go into acts 22

I'm going to save that one for the rebuttal of Paul's conversion Because I don't you know, six minutes is not enough.

But but like what Jeremiah was saying in the Old Testament, I Think we all can agree even the people in the

Church of Christ The Church of Christ doctrine the people in the Church of Christ would say that circumcision was a sign That you were in the covenant community of God's people

We it's very clear in Romans that circumcision was of the heart, right? Well that goes all the way back to Deuteronomy 30 verse 6 that God tells them to circumcise your heart

But guess what? You can't do that. So what was the sign of circumcision of the flesh? It was a sign pointing to the true reality now some people came really legalistic in the

Jewish religion Okay in Judaism They became Pharisees a very legalistic people who thought the actual act of cutting off the flesh of this circumcision actually did something for them

No, but the true believers of God the remnant of Israel all through the Old Testament They always knew that that was just a sign pointing to a true reality of a circumcision of the heart and every time

God made a covenant with his people. He gave them a sign. He gave Noah's son. He gave Abraham a sign

He had the Sabbath was a sign under the Mosaic Covenant. I Just have some feedback now coming to my ears

Myself Oh, I don't know I'm hearing me That's weird.

I'm talking to myself, but in the Mosaic Covenant the Sabbath was a sign And so when we get in the

New Covenant, guess what? There's a sign and it's baptism and none of these signs pointed

I mean they all pointed to the true spiritual reality the sign itself doesn't do anything

That would be like when you you're starving to death and you're driving down the interstate and you see a

McDonald's sign Do you go and hug the sign? Or do you go to what it points to the hamburger inside the building?

That's what signs do They always point to a true reality So I just want to say that I'll let you jump back in here for four minutes and 50 seconds

Because I got a fishbone. I could I couldn't have said it any better myself But what what

Trey is emphasizing is your participation in a ceremony that's meant to be a sign that signifies spiritual realities cannot be the means and Grounds of your justification because that is to conflate faith and works these two words mean

Different things and as our interlocutors you heard him earlier. You must act you must be obedient to these commands

By their own admission, they are saying you're expressed faith in your works. That must happen

It's not just faith at the moment of faith. You're justified but when faith has worked a

Particular action in baptism if they say well, it's not it's not your works Jeremiah.

I'm gonna say okay Well, then it's there. It's no longer an act of faith in baptism if they want to say well baptism is the powerful working of God I'm gonna say well sure.

It's a work of God But is it also a work that you participate in because this is our heart

I want everybody to understand that the gospel of grace is not faith plus Your accomplishments your obedience to a five -step formula and getting immersed all the way into water

Trey I've had so many conversations that people say if your hand didn't make it all the way in the water then you disobeyed

Let me let me get this very clear If you are not trusting alone in Christ alone apart from all of your works

Then you have disobeyed the gospel. And so like Trey said, let's save acts 2216 and let's talk about what it means to truly call upon the name of the

Lord a verse that was brought up was Galatians 327 for as many of you were

Baptized into Christ. So my question is how did Paul with a Jewish background?

How did he understand the word? Baptizo they will have to categorically reject the definition that says that baptism is a

Ceremonial right immersed into water that Signifies if I hold up a picture of my beautiful family

Trey and I say this is my family You're not going to say well, that's literally Jeremiah's family. That is crazy talk.

That is a sign That is a picture when you think that when you're getting into the water that that literally washes away

Your sin then you are confusing the picture With the what it signifies you are confusing the representation for the reality and you have conflated faith

And works and law with gospel and so Galatians 327 has a context.

What is the verse that comes right before for in Christ Jesus? You are all sons of God through not faith tray or not baptism

But by faith and like you always point out for as many of you that are sons and daughters you wear your baptism as Clothes, so can you put something on if you don't exist, right?

So these are already sons and daughters of the Most High by faith And so what

I want you to listen and you'll see how we provide pushback in the rebuttal time and the cross exact They're gonna say well

Jeremiah acts 238 doesn't say what must we do and Peter say you do nothing Well, they're misunderstanding our position we're saying you don't do anything in your works

How do you respond to the gospel of grace? Well, you respond in faith that understands that you cannot add any of your accomplishments to Jesus is already

Finished work and so as we begin to wind down here It was a very interesting tray.

They appealed to Cornelius and this only goes against their case Yes, the

Holy Spirit was at work while Peter began to speak guess what the Holy Spirit was going out with Conviction.

He was regenerating the hearts of those that are hearing the sweet gospel of grace. And here's the whole point you cannot have unregenerate unbelievers

Experiencing the Holy Spirit and able to extol God all of these happened before They entered into the watery graves of baptism, so I just want to leave it there and tell you all thank you for listening

This truly is an honor and I look forward to defining terms and context is always

King It's right.

I hear you. I think you're muted say Marlon these 20 seconds.

Why am I getting feedback back in my ears of me talking? What I have no idea

I have no idea I'm not sure. I'm sorry about that.

I'm not I'm not even sure what's going on there. I have no idea man But he might can fix it while we hear the rebuttals

Yes. Yes. All right So Zachary and Andrew you guys are up next for your 10 minute rebuttals and as before remember this little chime that is your one minute warning that you need to start wrapping up your rebuttals and That's it.

I'll start your 10 minute timer as soon as you begin to speak All right, well, thank you for that opening statement

I really appreciate that but to dive in I want to get to the point where Trey had mentioned about the word repent

He says that I agree. We must repent. So I'm wondering what do you mean by that?

You must Repent, does that mean that there's something being done like an action or is it something that just God is giving you in regeneration?

So I would like to understand that a little bit more And then also do you agree that? So, um, sorry, um and Does faith mean something that you do, you know?

You said does faith mean it you it means something that you do like trusting in someone again Is it you actually trusting in somebody like for example if I were to go to my son and say hey

Son, I'm going to pick you up from school at three o 'clock or whatever time and he believes and trusts in that again

That's him actively Hearing those words him believing and following through with him believing in it.

So again, that's something that he's doing and then again getting to the point or this is a two -part debate the reason that we formulated this way is because in Christ is all

Justification it is the complete forgiveness of sin. Like I said in my opening statement It's the Old Testament had the continual animal sacrifices

Whereas in the New Testament in the New Covenant prophesied from the Old Testament It's once and for all those who are in Christ Jesus, they're completely forgiven

So if we want to get into a debate in regards to can you follow it? I would love to have a debate on that topic, but that debate is not for today

It's about water baptism being the point in which you're forgiven So if you want to ask me questions during your cross -examination about that we can get into that But or we can have that for another debate but again

I believe that the reason that we say that it is the complete forgiveness is because that was what was promised in the in the

Old Testament that in Jesus Christ, we would have the complete forgiveness Jesus being the high priest to ever live

To for the his blood to cover us forever and I And also

I agree that you know when you look at Romans chapter 5 and it talks about that We have peace with God, you know that we've been justified through faith.

I I agree with faith I agree with that But you have to define what you mean by faith Faith doesn't necessarily mean just trust because it's actually the word pistou even in Romans chapter 5.

It's something being done It's a verb in the active, you know I would like for you to show me somewhere in the

Gospel of John somewhere where you actually show me a word that says faith pistou

Pistis, however, you want to say it where it's something that's being done to you because again like for the

Calvinist position It's God is Giving you the faith, you know, it's not you having faith

It's God giving it to you something that would be in the passive but in actuality, you know

It's something that you're doing right? And then again getting to Romans chapter 4. I'll let Andrew deal with that one and Then again going to Acts chapter 2 the reason

I wouldn't disconnect Baptism with repentance is because they're linked together for the forgiveness of sins

This is something that takes place after their hearts were already pierced. The text is clear Yes, it's it's a

Jewish context, but the Gospels for the Jew and the Gentile it's both one in the same It's when you believe then what happens is you're going to follow through with that and you're going to call upon the name of the

Lord and you're going to actually Repent and be baptized just like Trey said that it's something that you must do

It's something that has to be done repentance is something must be done And if you look at the Greek there and Acts chapter 2, it's a it's a verb.

That's actually something that you're doing He's telling them to do something. So again, it's repentance And being baptized is the same language there

And yeah Like I was saying like baptism is a is is not a work in the sense of that We're doing something baptism is actually something that's being done to us

So if you say that yeah, you know it's a part of the first thing of sanctification because you get up and walk to the

Baptist tree you have a thought that I'm Gonna actually go get baptized, but that's not what's happening.

Baptism is something being done to you It is the moment in which you're being placed into Christ in the spirit.

It's not something literally happening It's something that is in the spiritual realm taking place in that very moment and then

Jeremiah says Now as I want to look at the idea of an

Acts chapter 2 verse 38 where it says repent for the forgiveness of sins and he wanted to say that repentance is always tethered with Forgiveness of sins.

That's what Jeremiah said that if you look at Luke That's what it's being connected with but then Trey came around and said actually

It's it should be read as like because or something that had already happened So what is it is repentance for the forgiveness of sins or is repentance because your sins were already forgiven

All right now over to brother Andrew Okay The comment was made that from Genesis chapter 1 all the way through the book revelation

It is salvation by grace alone through faith alone Not a single verse was provided because there's not one.

So if they want to try to show one we'd be happy to look at that Also, it was said that people who have been received the

Holy Spirit. They're not able to fall away They can't fall away in Acts 19 verse 6

The Apostle Paul gives the Holy Spirit to the new converts at Ephesus they get baptized and in the name of Jesus Christ in Acts 19 5 and then the

Apostle Paul gives them the Holy Spirit in Acts 19 6 book of Ephesians Ephesians 1 verses 12 through 14 speaks of how they had

Had the how they had the Holy Spirit. They were still with the Holy Spirit for that for the day of redemption and yet in Revelation chapter 2

We see that the angel of the church in Ephesus right and if you look at Revelation 2 verse 2

I know your deeds and your toil and your perseverance and that you cannot tolerate evil men and you put to the test those who call

Themselves apostles and they are not and you found them to be false You have perseverance you've endured for my namesake and I'm not grown weary But I have this against you that you have left your first love

Therefore remember from where you have fallen and repent and do the deeds you did at the first Or else

I'm coming to you and remove your lampstand out of its place The lampstand, of course is a symbol in the book of Revelation for the church itself

And so Jesus threatening to remove them from being his church if they do not repent and this can't be talking about people who were never safe to begin with Because he says repent and do the deeds you did at the first So it's clearly talking about people who were in a safe condition

And yet they were in jeopardy of not being in a safe condition if Jesus is gonna remove their status of being a church

Also don't time to go look at it But Hebrews chapter 6 also clearly shows that people who had received the Holy Spirit were able to fall away and many of them did

In the first century just like Jesus prophesied what happened in Matthew 24 verses 11 through 14

Also, we've got Justified by faith I agree,

Zach and I don't have a problem with the idea of people being justified by faith We're also justified in baptism because Romans 6 verse 7 uses the same

Greek word for justification Dikaioto It says the one who has died is set free justified from sin

But in the context of Romans 6 it's not talking about our physical deaths It's talking about what happens when one is baptized

Romans 6 verse 3 you're baptized into Christ's death You are buried with them through baptism into death

And so if you want to call it a ceremony or whatever you want to call it Romans 6 is clearly not about sanctification

It is still talking about justification because it uses the same Greek word for justify in Romans 6 and verse 7

Also, the comment was made Romans chapter 4. Well, I'd love to see in the context What why is it in Romans 4 verse 3 this this is talking about the works of the law of Moses Okay, we'll give you the context

Romans chapter 3 verse 20 speaks of how a person cannot be justified by the works The person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law also verse 28

No flesh is justified by the works of the law and then after the verse in question after Romans 4 verse 3 you read about Abraham was justified in the eyes of God before circumcision not after circumcision before circumcision

So clearly in the immediate context the verses before Romans 4 3 and the verses after Romans 4 3

Clearly are showing you that the context is talking about The law of Moses Abraham was able to be justified in the eyes of God prior to Mosaic law, which was the whole major thing that was running through the book of Romans That's why

Romans 8 talks about those in the flesh cannot please God those in Judaism those who are keeping the old covenant

They cannot please God and they didn't because Jesus's death had already made the atonement Therefore they needed to come out of that old covenant come into the new during that 40 year period

No, I say during that 40 year period from 30 to 70 But even today if people want to claim they're going by the old law today, they should still come out of that as well

That's good I can see my time there All right, Zachary you good as well

Yeah, I'm good All right. All right. All right guys, so we are done with the openings and the rebuttals

So now we're going to transition to the favorite part of every debate, which is the cross examination

Yes Excited to get the cross -x guns and that's all that was that is

I'm sorry guys All of that was That's all it was but all right, you guys got ten minutes man,

I'll start your time as soon as you begin to speak I'm gonna make it quick here. Do you have to repent?

No, just like you would tell people you don't have to do anything. There's nothing you can do to save yourself. Nothing Repentance is guess what that is when

I repent of my sins That's a sign evidence of a changed heart that God's already changed my heart remember all the way back to Deuteronomy Circumcise your heart, but you can't do that.

It's the work of the Spirit of God The flesh is no help at all. And so do you repent? No, like you don't repent to be saved

You repent because you are saved. What is faith? You asked faith is a gift from God. That's what it is

So faith is not something you conjure up faith is not something that you do when you tell your son.

Hey, just believe me I'll be back from the store in a minute What does your son do? He does nothing He sits there and waits because he believes kind of like us we abide in Christ We wait and we trust in him and him alone.

So Really quick. Let's see here Yeah, when you said that baptism is not something that we're doing then why tell people they got to do it

If it's something that you don't do baptism, then it's not something don't mean that it's not something we do It don't mean that then why tell people to do it

You said that nowhere in the Bible does it preach that people were saved by faith alone Romans 4

Abraham Justified by faith You said yes, we agree that you're justified by faith.

And then you said and when you're baptized So are you justified when you have faith like Romans 5 one says that you're justified by faith now you have peace with God The question is do you have true peace with God when you have faith or are you not at peace with God when you have?

faith, but how can you be justified when you have faith and Justified when you're baptized it's because the

Church of Christ changes the definition of the word faith And they try to make it include baptism.

So here we go You're about to have it Jeremiah, but I'm gonna I'm gonna knock out this Paul's conversion Because I would say that the

Church of Christ would say that the Bible does not contradict Correct. The Bible does not contradict

Okay. Now if we look at Paul's conversion You made a big you stress the deal.

Why would Luke stress his baptism? My question is when Paul's giving his testimony not just a recording of Luke of what happened

But when Paul's giving his actual testimony in Acts 26 and in Galatians 1, why doesn't he stress his baptism?

He doesn't even mention it. I mean to be the crescendo of his salvation I would think he would have mentioned it

But when we go into this like you said in your statement Zachary, I believe it was.

Yeah No Who did the Paul on their first statement?

But here's the thing you said let me find my notes here

I wrote it down Right. Yeah, Zach. You're the one You said if you look closely at Paul's conversion

He did believe and then he confessed and he called upon his name But his sins were not washed away until he was baptized

I totally disagree and I don't think that's a good Bible reading. So I'm going to point some things out We would agree like you just said he did believe he heard from the

Lord Jesus Christ He believed in the Lord Jesus Christ. He confessed the Lord Jesus Christ and like you even said he confessed him, right?

He confessed him. He called on the name of the Lord I'm glad we agree with that But I would say his sins were forgiven before he was baptized unless you want to go to bed tonight

Admitting that the Bible contradicts you're probably not going to say it but you're probably not going to be able to sleep Well after this

John 9 31 it says we know that God does not listen to sinners But if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will

God listens to him So God was not just listening to the prayer of Paul. He was actually answering his prayer

He was saying I'm gonna send in an anise and he is going to give your sight back so How does this guy in John 9 know that God does not listen to sinners?

Because he's listening to Paul and according to you Paul is still in his sins So why is Jesus not just listening and hearing it, but he's answering it as well

Is he must be a worshiper of God according to 931 but why do they know that well because the Old Testament teaches it in Proverbs 15 8 it says the sacrifice of the wicked is

An abomination to the Lord, but the prayer of the upright is acceptable to him If you look at Paul's conversion his prayer was acceptable to Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ was hearing it and he was answering his prayer

Proverbs 15 Right here in verse 29 says the Lord is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayers of the righteous

My question is was Jesus hearing his prayers and answering his prayers. Yes Does the

Bible contradict here in Psalm 66 18 through 19? It says if I had a chair if I did cherished iniquity in my heart the

Lord would not have listened So I guess Paul did not cherish iniquity in his heart. It goes on to say in verse 19, but truly

God has listened He's attended to the voice of my prayer See God doesn't listen to sinners people who hate him

He does not listen to sinners but worshiper of God that he listens to my question is is Jesus listening to Paul before he's baptized

What do you do with the text? You can't do anything with it other than say, you know what? I'm wrong Isaiah Let's see here.

I think I got one in Psalm Nope, Isaiah 59 too But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your

God and your sins have hidden his face from you So that he does not hear you oh my goodness

Isaiah 59 2 says that your sins Because of your sins before a holy

God he does not hear you Here's my question was Jesus hearing the prayers of Paul and answering them.

Yes He was does the Bible contradict? No, they don't you know why because everyone who calls the name of Lord like you said and like Paul later said in chapter 10

Of Romans, he did believe he did confess and he did call on the name of the Lord He was saved and so in a nice was doing what

Christians do he was doing the the Great Commission That's what I'll leave it right there at that.

I'll let you take up the rest of the time. Sorry for that Thanks, man No fishbone did an excellent job of showing us that the fruit of repentance the actions that are produced from a repentant heart

Those actions those works do not forgive sin. Absolutely not Must a person repent well repentance is metanoia.

That's the changing of the mind This is a Hebrew understanding of a volitional heart change

We can look in Luke chapter 3. There's a difference between Repent and the the fruit in keeping with repentance and so you got to have that distinction a repentant faith always

Produces works. So must you repent? That's a heart issue That's a heart of faith issue not the fruit like Trey was bringing out question was asked

Do you mean does faith mean something you do faith is a gift faith?

Isn't something you can conjure up up a a heart of faith that continues to believe

Well, the just will live by faith that inward heart of trust that that that trust will produce

Work, so these questions when you when you understand the differences between faith and works and justification sanctification

We see the harmony. I think it was Zachary may Said our debate is not about falling away.

Well, let me remind you of the debate title water To receive the forgiveness of all of our sins past present in future

That is a that is a part of our debate You believe future sins like falling away are covered in the waters of baptism.

That is the debate proposition You're going to have to be the one to square that circle not us

It was said that I agree with Romans 5 1 Faith is faith is not just trust faith is something that you are doing

Absolutely, but not in your works faith is an experience that you have because faith is a gracious gift from God It's not you're doing in terms of your works

Zachary. I believe does not understand the the Jewish Significance in Acts chapter 2

I'll repeat. It's not continual ceremonies We all agree, but what is the the principle of ceremony itself?

Well, the ceremony signifies the forgiveness of sins that are in Christ Jesus That is the question that y 'all are begging every single time.

You read the word Baptism or baptizo they said baptism is not an act that we do. Okay, then it's no longer an act of faith

So just to want to mind you there It was also said by the other gentlemen salvation is never to be said by faith alone in Christ alone

Well, actually the phrase that we keep pointing people to is it's by faith and not by works by faith apart from works

That's what we mean by them. It was Exactly that that's a theological conclusion that we're saying

Romans 5 1 we're not redefining faith into faithfulness like Roman Catholics Do Greek Orthodox Mormonism Jehovah's Witnesses and the

Church of Christ? They pointed to Revelation chapter 2 where Jesus says I know your deeds or your works your perseverance

You have left your first love repent Absolutely a repentant heart leads to fruit of repentance

We are justified by faith apart from works and the just shall live by faith

I have to throw this one in there fishbone. I almost Can't wait Romans 6 is not about sanctification.

Have you ever heard someone say that before to me in a debate? Let me just say Romans 6 19 Says so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading

Jeremiah Romans 6 isn't about sanctification Oh But it's leading to sanctification and it says it again verse 22 that that we have become slaves to God the fruit that leads to sanctification lastly

Romans 6 7 Yep, the verse 7 does talk about justification and there's a context about baptism but you have never once defined that baptism as a ceremonial right immersed into water that signifies beautifully pictures these realities

And I will also say I love Romans 6 verse 8 now if we've died with Christ We believe that we will also live with him says for the one who has died in verse 7

The one who has died has been set free from sin. You were dead before you're baptized You were saved set free from sin is justified before you're about baptized dead people

All right. Thank you guys so much for these openings and the rebuttals. So now we're transitioning now

We actually got got that second rebuttal out the way. So I appreciate you guys for that So now we're gonna transition to the cross -examination of the debate

Once again, this would be a total 15 minutes both teams to get 25 minutes each to ask questions We know that sometimes as you are winding up with your question you tend to sort of give an extended wind up Let's try to minimize that wind up.

Let's get right to the question The one that's receiving the question if you could answer the question with a simple yes or no, please do that You do not want to ball your opponent team your your opponent's time down with long -winded monologues

All right but that says Zachary and Andrew you guys up first for your 20 -minute cross -examination of Jeremiah and Trey and I will start your 25 minute timer as soon as you begin to ask your first question

All right, guys Trey Jeremiah, whichever one of y 'all when I want to answer it. It's cool. I'm not signaling it

Either one y 'all out ever feel like answer I'm joined us sharing with us in your view.

When was Cornelius saved when he believed

When he believed when he believed what? Yeah Last the last yeah the last

The way he ends his sermon here in verse 43 to him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name

So I would say At that point and verse 43 or okay, so you also said that Craig if I'm wrong that John 9 is a

John 9 31. God does not listen to the prayers of sinners He's not he does not heed sinners prayers. Is that correct?

But worshipers have gone Okay Generated unsaved people he does not listen to them

Well, he hears them in the sense that he knows everything but like an Amos when he says to Israel only you have all the families

Of the earth have I known in an intimate relationship, but he knew that all the other families of the earth existed

He hears all those things he knows what's being said, right he knows everything right but not in that intimate way

Okay, so do you believe it was in? God Right, but he's not saved yet in in Acts 10 verse 1 and 2.

He's not saved yet Fishbone can I hop in there?

Come on with it so I person I personally believe that God worshipers those that fear

God are regenerate but Cornelius is saved in the unique sense that acts 412 talks about the greater revelation that the name of the

Savior is Jesus of Nazareth and so Cornelius being unregenerate under Old Testament standards does not have the permanent indwelling of the

Holy Spirit because he has not Received the full revelation of Jesus Christ So he can be a

God fear somebody that worships God truly from the heart because he's regenerate But he has not heard the full revelation of being saved in the entirety of what the

New Testament says Until he hears the gospel of grace that was proclaimed to him by Peter Lydia Lydia who is a worshiper of God and so it says that the

Holy Spirit forbid them to go preach over here the spirit Of Jesus Christ forbid them to preach over here. They said go to Macedonia is what the what

Jesus told him So they went to me. I didn't freeze again.

Did I I mean I hear you part. Yeah So again, like Lydia was a worshiper of God and the

Lord opened her heart to pay attention to the message So when you study the Old Testament things like this Worshippers of God we would argue that they you know, it's the elect of God is those who were chosen by God Okay Right, but he but he wasn't saved yet until Peter got to him and preached to him about believing in Jesus, right?

Well, I would believe he was saved. I think he was elect the elect of God He was a worshiper of God like John 931, right?

He doesn't listen to sinners So he's already Okay, so he's so regenerated and he has the indwelling of the

Holy Spirit when he believes like Peter said in the message and the reason God is sending calling

Cornelius and Peter to come to Cornelius is because he's a worshiper of God and He's bringing

Peter to give him the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which the Old Testament understood at the time pointed to So that's the reason why

God is heeding his prayer by sending him Peter because he's already saved. He's already regenerated. Yes.

I Think that we've we've said that I mean he was the elect of God. He was a worshiper of God And so again because it's under the

Dispensation of Christ in the gospel of Christ. So now he's gonna have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit because of his belief in him

Gotcha, so he's already saved Do you think the angel was mistaken in Acts 11 where it says that the angel came to him and told him to go and tell

Him words by which he will be saved in the future. Was that was angel mistaken? No, I think the angel was mistaken

I'm not saying he was saying again. I'm saying he was Saved by believing in Jesus Christ and have the indwelling of the

Holy Spirit. I'm saying he was a worshiper of God Before that took place. Would you agree that the text says that he was a worshiper of God?

You can't ask questions You can ask that when it's your process

So you're saying that a person has to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or the gift of the Holy Spirit prior to conversion correct or regeneration

Try you may hop in there Yeah, let me hit this one when you hop in I believe Christ words when he says the

Spirit gives life The flesh is no help at all. Go ahead your mom And you do you want to ask a follow -up question, but Cornelius he was saved when he believed or when he received to get to the

Holy Spirit, right? Well, you're talking about God fear. So this this is a

I've heard you say Jeremiah something some of your debates that that the forgiveness of sins is basically the equivalent of the forgiveness

The gift of the Holy Spirit is basically it's the equivalent of forgiveness of sin. They go together You do Yes, no in the

New Covenant context that's the gift of the permanent dwelling Holy Spirit Okay. So why why is it that in Acts 2 verse 38?

Why are the people able to? repent and be baptized before they had the forgiveness of their sins because Lombano's in the future tense they will receive in the future the gift of the

Holy Spirit because that kind of sounds like our position That repentance and baptism can both come prior to the forgiveness of sins

No, I disagree I see a strong continuity with repentance as always what is entailed by the forgiveness of sins at the moment of justification

You're begging the question with your understanding of baptism Okay. Okay You've also been saying that Baptism is a work

Ergon that we do. Yes. That's something we do is like a first part of our sanctification. It's not for justification water baptism is for Sanctification not justification, correct

If you if we agree that we participate in baptism, then there's no way around that We are doing some kind of effort in action

Okay, so could you can you explain to us? What is when when the when baptizo that the

Greek verb when it's When when the Greek speaks of things in the passive voice or the active voice can you explain for everybody what the difference is between I'm not a

Greek scholar, but Can you explain to us real quick what what you think the difference is between the active voice and the passive voice

Yeah, well, it's in the the Senate syntax. So it is communicating to us things that happen in real time

So it has to do with understanding the noun and the verb in the sentences And I want to say every time we talk about bid baptizo.

It's talking about the ceremony So are there aspects in a ceremony that we are passive?

Absolutely when we are going down into the water Are there times in the ceremony when we are active like expressing our faith many people confess

Jesus as Lord in their baptism? So they are participating if they are getting up and walking to the

Baptist tree That's a part of the whole ceremony. That is declaring the gospel of grace

Okay, can can you just explain to us why if if baptism is a work that we do

Why is it every time a person or a group of people get baptized in the New Testament? Why is it in the passive voice and not active because there's because there's a moment in our

The the ceremony of baptism where we are passive, but that's not the full range of the ceremony.

We get up we participate the Typically the baptizer like Ananias is declaring the gospel upon their confession

So you're talking about one moment in the entire ceremony But the moment that you say you're entirely passive during baptism that no longer is an expression or act of faith so Baptism Baptism is a work that we do or it's a work.

It's a work that we do or work that we don't do It is both a work of God You're not asking about it

But it is a work that we do along with the baptizer who is also working in the ceremony

Even even though baptism for a person or two people is never active voice It is a work that would have to if we understand the the process that we are going into the water and we're coming out

To say that all the only time that the ceremony is a ceremony is when you're no longer doing anything is to miss the whole point of what the ceremony signifies

Yeah, I would also disagree that every time a baptism is mentioned is a passive voice

Rise and be baptized and wash your sins away is not passive. It's a verb and it's a middle voice

Right the middle voice means it's the grammatical voice that signifies that the subject of the verb is being affected by its own action

Or is acting upon itself. So if we're going to take acts 22 16, we're saying that Paul doing this action in this verb of baptism

Also, he is causing his sins to be washed away, but we know this is talking about a spiritual thing

This is not talking about a physical. His sins are floating down the river and it's in a middle voice because surely we don't believe that Paul's Causes his own sins to be forgiven, but that's the grammatical text of acts 22 16

Yes and actually 216 is the only one that I could find where a person or a group of people is getting baptized in its middle and not passive and I think the reason why it's middle and actually to versus in acts 9 the original account where Saul gets baptized by Ananias It's which is passive there

But in actually to the reason I believe it's in the middle is because Paul and actually to is retelling his own Conversion story.

It's not like Luke or someone narrating the story and therefore. Yes. He does have to be both active and passive in the sense that obviously, we would all agree that just because of I would think we would all agree that just because I Didn't have another question or two, but I don't want to have

Zach around Tom. So I'm sure I'll go ahead and pass it over Zack Thanks, Andrew Yeah All right

Does axe to verse 37 teach us that those whose hearts were pierced were already saved?

You got a fishbone if you want to go first Well, I believe there's you know, when we read the context of this

Luke is interviewing people He's writing this account right and there is he's hearing this and he says look they were cut to the heart

I mean when you tell him a story of someone who was truly cut man They were I told him the story they were cut to the heart means something affected their heart, right?

So I would say that not every single person who is at Pentecost their hearts were cut

But the people he's referring to here that goes on down who did believe in his message and were baptized and added to the church

That day he's referring to those people who are truly cut to the heart. And yes, I would say that the question just Those people that were cut to the heart.

Did they experience like did they respond positively to the gospel message? I think those who were truly cut to the heart and have a change of heart by God.

There's all those in verse 37 Okay, so those in verse 37

No, no, it's I'm agreeing just those in verse 37 the one that said that those period

I mean not all the million Jews that Were there it's obviously, you know specified the 3 ,000 later But those they were they had the regeneration and they responded positively in verse 37, correct?

Yeah, go ahead Okay Do you believe a person who has not yet experienced the regeneration of the

Holy Spirit can respond positively to the gospel message? Absolutely, not

Romans 8 it's very clear on that first Corinthians chapter 2 Romans 8 says the person of the flesh cannot submit to God's law

Indeed, he cannot the person of flesh who has the mind of the flesh cannot please God Do you think it would be pleasing to get baptized?

Yeah In your cross -examination. So the next question is do you think that Peter also shares the exact same perspective that you do?

I Don't think Peter can see the hearts of people. I think the Bible teaches that only God knows our heart I know my heart and God knows my heart and because Peter doesn't know his heart

He's preaching the gospel and he says to him repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, right? And so but those who respond

My main point is those who respond positively They would have been regenerated because a person that has not yet been generate regenerated

You already said would not respond positively to the gospel message. So does

Peter? Yeah, but I don't know the hearts of people you can say things you can say

You know, there's people in this country today who are male and they say they're female right like but they walk around as males

I don't know what people say and what they believe No, I mean, I'm just saying he doesn't know their heart

So they were cut to the heart but Luke's going back and retelling the story as it occurred He's I know but we already know what you already answer

But you already answered that a person that has not yet been regenerated would not respond positively to the gospel message, correct?

You already answered Yes, they yeah, okay the flesh cannot please

God Yes, so But those who were in verse 37 they were pierced to the heart and then they asked they read

Do you think that they did respond positively? When he actually when

Peter spoke the first gospel message those who's pierced those who had their hearts pierced

They said brothers. What shall we do? Yeah, is that responding positively to the gospel message or is that living in dead sin?

No, that's a question of what do we do? Yeah, is that responding positive? And so Peter gives them a response

Go ahead, Jeremiah. So Yeah I'll try make this quick Zachary.

So what shall we do is a Jewish people saying? What shall we do not because we just heard the best news possible really happy No, they understand that they've killed the

Son of Glory the Mashiach and when they say what shall we do? They understand they deserve the full wrath of God so this is a

Covenantal Jewish context and I just want to piggyback and say when they were cut to the heart They now have a repentant heart that Peter cannot see so he is telling them how to have their sins forgiven repent which they have a repentant heart now and Demonstrate that repentance with a different kind of command one in sanctification, which is where baptism belongs

Yeah, but you would say that they were you know, they had that regenerates experience already in verse 30 right verse 37 is where the

Holy Spirit has transformed that heart to a repentant faith and now they can respond in baptism

Yeah, and then again Do you think Peter if somebody was again? You're saying it's a

Jewish context. They would agree with me at all Would you also agree that Peter would also say the exact same thing if somebody that just heard the gospel message that they were like We killed the

Mashiach and then they're like, what shall we do? Like, oh my god, we messed up We killed the one you're talking about and they were cut to the heart.

Do you think Peter shares that same perspective? 100 % he affirms the gospel of grace, which is by faith apart from works and then they just shall live by faith

That's okay. That's exactly what the scripture teaches. All right, perfect So if that's the case, why did Peter command those who heard him preach the preach to repent the command is to repent is a verb in the imperative

Suggesting it is an action that must be taken in the present rather than something already accomplished in the past How is that possible if your views if you believe the

Jews in verse 37 were already saved and have already repented? Well, you're begging the question about what metanoia is

It's a change of heart and a change of mind that leads to fruits of repentance And so Peter is being faithful to the

Great Commission We're here to go to all the worlds preaching the good news making disciples and then commanding them to obey all the

Christ's commandments And that would include baptism. So you're begging the question with repentance. I Got you.

Well, I think you're missing the point that that Peter can't see the hearts of people like the scripture says like I know my heart

God knows my heart Nobody else knows my heart. I don't know your heart. So but God knows your heart So when people say they hear the gospel, they said brothers

What do we do and again Luke is going back and retelling what happened just but you're reading it and you're trying to like make it

Oh, so Peter should have known ever since we're already forgiven. They didn't have to do anything That's not what we're saying Repentant hearts people who trust in God always bear fruit, right?

The Holy Spirit bears a fruit. Yeah produces. No, I Got you. So it's not I appreciate that.

He's like I'm gonna just transition with it Okay, I'll transition to a different question at what specific moment was

Paul saved when he called on the name of the Lord Like you said when he believed and when he confessed and when he called him in Lord He went when he identified him as Lord Last step because all of the others are provided for you.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, I got you. So again, you agree that Yeah, so Paul calling on the name of the

Lord by acknowledging Jesus as Lord. That's and that so that's what he did So that's him right save now Do you believe

Ananias shares the same understanding of calling on the name of the Lord as you do as being you know, praying

Jesus Once again, yeah, I would say that he has that same understanding He doesn't know he just knows he struck down blind all he knows is

Jesus called him says Hey, man, and what Jesus sent him to do if you read the text carefully was not to go baptizing

What Jesus said to do is I appointed you to go give him his sight back If you look at Paul's own conversion in Galatians 1, he just says

I didn't receive it from any man the gospel as I Teach I received it through a revelation of Christ.

So gotcha So again, you would agree that and I just want to get my point across So you you do agree that Ananias shares the same understanding that if a person is truly praying to the

Lord That person has already called on his name and that person has already been justified and saved right?

I'm gonna let the dog He's got his hand up. I think he wants to put some Yeah, and I'll be I'll be brief

Zachary Yeah, because he used the word be baptized and wash away your sins Ananias is he would have the

Jewish understanding that it signifies these things and ceremonies has never forgiven sins So he would of course would take our view because he's not he wouldn't have your understanding that baptism literally washed his way not

Since or you're all your sins, but he has the Jewish understanding of gotcha All right, and I was awesome brother.

Do you call people who are unbaptized brothers in Christ? So given that Ananias received a vision from Jesus confirming that Paul was praying to him

Do you believe Ananias was fully convinced that Paul was truly praying to Jesus? Given that Ananias received a vision from Jesus confirming that Paul was praying to him

Do you believe Ananias was fully convinced that Paul was truly praying to Jesus?

Or yeah, so you are you suggesting that Ananias might be believing that Jesus is lying to him? No, what

I'm getting at is do you call him brother? Yeah, I believe that Ananias has the same understanding That's why he calls him brother

Adelphus and which is a noun and it's a noun that's used to refer to a brother A male believer understood as one's own sibling in God's family sometimes used by any sibling regardless of gender in God's family

That's why brother Saul Come here So just just really quick to clarify so in acts 9 11 it says and the lord said to him

So this is when the lord appeared to him in a vision says rise and go to the street called straight to the house Of judas look for a man of tarsus a namestall for behold.

He is praying Do you believe that ananias was fully convinced that paul was truly praying to jesus yes or no

Dog you got your hand up. Go ahead Yeah, yes, because verse 15 go for paul is a chosen instrument of mine.

That is why Ananias is going to say come be baptized wash away your sins because This is what a baptizer is supposed to do when baptizing is to declare the gospel

So he's being consistent with of course This is a brother someone who is justified by faith apart from works.

We now preach the gospel to the watching world I got you. So if calling on the name of the lord means praying to jesus and ananias knew paul had already done that Why did ananias still instruct him to wash away his sins by calling on his name?

Because i'm a little confused you're saying that his sins were already washed away But if ananias knew that he was truly praying to jesus, which therefore means he was calling on his name

Why is he telling him later to wash away his sins? Fishbone, you gotta look at his christians

Oh, okay. Go ahead Well, you are a little confused. Let me bring some clarity calling upon the name

The lord is not simply praying a prayer. It's a heart of worship and we see that expressed in verse uh aid of acts 22 and the reason why

Ananias would say come and wash away your sins because he understands the jewish understanding that it signifies the forgiveness of sins

And this is meant to be done to brothers believers And this is what true regenerate saints have always done in a baptismal ceremony is declare the gospel.

That's what ananas is doing Okay, I got you. Okay. So is it is true saving repentant faith something pleasing to god

You got this fish true. What's that now? What's the question is true saving repentant faith because you've used the term like repentant faith, you know

Is something pleasing to god is that pleasing to god's eyes? Yes, let me let me answer this again

The person of the flesh cannot please god romans 8 8 So so you agree with my question?

So repentance and faith are evidence of a changed heart god changes our heart Then repentance and faith and then we move forward in what we were called to do and so it's evidence of a changed heart remember

I'm gonna just cut you off there. I'm sorry about that But can you uh, can an unsaved sinner perform actions that are pleasing to god?

Like saving, you know having that repentant faith Paul says nothing done in faith

It's not okay. So how in your view does a spiritually dead sinner receive this saving repentant faith?

by grace alone Okay, so are you saying that the holy spirit might like it's it's the the holy spirit regenerates the spiritually dead sinner enabling them to have true saving repentant faith

Yes, that's what the scriptures clearly teach Okay so the process then is the spiritually dead sinner is first regenerated or raised to new life and And only then is given true saving repentant faith.

Would you agree with that that kind of order? First generation it says in second timothy chapter two that god may perhaps grant them repentance

So it repentance is even a gift of god faith is a gift of god It goes back to the valley of dry bones when you see a bunch of dead bones.

Do you think god can raise those? Who hey, oh my god, you only know so he does it but you would say that it's so regeneration

Then precedes faith, correct? Okay, so So however colossians 2 12 states you were also raised with him through faith

Doesn't this passage suggest that faith is the means by which one is raised? So we first have uh, so we first have faith then we're raised according to colossians 2 12

Did you agree with that was that late was that was that late in flowers it says through faith so that refutes that's uh,

No, that's uh, paul colossians 2 verse 12. No. No, oh my bad. I thought it was late in flowers No, uh, you're misunderstanding paul because he's talking about a baptism made without hands the fact that we can have

Uh be justified through faith. Well, that's a gift of god Thank you for that All right, thank you for that.

All right, jeremiah trey you're up next for your 25 minute cross examination of zachary and andrew And i'll start the time when you ask your first question

All right, I have so many questions Being that the title of this debate is that When you're baptized you receive the forgiveness of all of your sins past present and future

And when you bring up hebrews 10 verse 14, right,

I think it's verse 14 That it was once for all right that he forgave all of our sins all those sanctified

Let me go ahead and look it up 10 14 For by single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified how in the world

Because you said you would like to debate this some other time, but we're going to do it right now If jesus christ forgave all of your sins past present and future and you're now a christian

And he has perfected for you Like you brought up this verse for all time those who are being sanctified those christians who are alive and they're perfected for all time how in the world

Can a christian lose his salvation? Well again, like what i've said is that this clearly is talking about The new covenant for those who are in christ.

That's where my main point is Those who are in christ forgiveness, you know perfect in comparison. Like I said to the old testament but again

Losing your salvation is something that the bible does also speak about and the reason that it's the only reason why is because that's the

Only circumstance it's you losing your faith So there are problems if you take the position

That somebody I mean even in your position I don't understand because you would always just go run to you know, first john said they were never really saved.

So I understand so So how okay so Then you really don't believe that for by a single offering of jesus christ that he has truly perfected for all time

Those who are being sanctified not those who have glorified but those christians on the ground

So you think that no truly he has not perfected for all time those who are being uh sanctified that they actually can

Lose their salvation so he didn't die for all of your future sins. Maybe a lot of them, but there's one of them He didn't forgive

No, all those who are in christ jesus have received the justification

Okay, so mark 16 16 You don't believe mark 16 16 that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved

You think it means whoever believes and is baptized might be saved could be saved potentially can be saved But not definitely will be saved in the end

No, I do believe mark, uh, matthew, uh mark 16 16 for sure Okay, so how can those who believe and are baptized?

That says they will be saved not could be saved because they might lose their salvation. So Do you actually believe that you can lose your salvation or not?

No, I believe the only circumstance is if you reject and follow it just like hebrews chapter 6 talks about those who have fallen

So mark 16 in order to say whoever believes and is baptized could be saved Or has a channel.

It's it's those who believe and again, it's something that they're supposed to do So it's the believing again in all of the gospels every single time

The word believing is a verb in the active voice meaning something that they're doing So if you continually walk as he is in the light, you will be in jesus and you don't

So, let me ask you a question, but we're in christ So what's being in your story about you telling your son?

Believe me son. I will be back in a minute Are you expecting your son to do something or trust in something?

Yeah, again trusting believing is a verb in the active tense So that means that's something that you're doing just like for example

When when the bible talks about our even our thoughts can condemn us again Me looking at a woman with lust commits adultery in my heart

Therefore that's something that god would judge the bible says it's all about the heart The works

I know but it's still an wouldn't you say that when someone well, I wouldn't ask the question But what i'm saying is that when somebody commits a sin in their heart

God is judging their actions because it is something that they've done in their heart and god's the one that can see the heart

It's because god cares more about your heart than your actions Okay, I just want to I just want to make it clear

I'm going to punt this over to the dog real quick But I just want to make it very clear for by a single offering

He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified who are being sanctified repent You know whoever believes in his baptism will be saved not might be saved.

I just have a hard time I just think it's very illogical and it contradicts itself when you say will be saved but then you say but you could

Lose yourself. You might not be saved and he's perfected for all time those who are being sanctified, but maybe not all time so Yeah, i'll answer that as a question.

But yeah, no, I do agree with the text It does say that those again in the context. It's those in christ those in the new covenant have received the once and for all

Atoning sacrifice of the blood of jesus christ unlike the contention sacrifices Yes, of course those who are in christ jesus, yes, only those who are in christ.

Jesus are christian exact How can you lose your salvation? Anyway, go ahead.

Jeremiah go Well, it's I want to piggyback off this so zach is leaving the faith a sin

Um, I would say that leaving the faith would be a sin. Yeah Would that not be the future sin of leaving the faith be washed away in baptism?

Well, that's because you're rejecting what the offer is right again with which is giving you that offer and you've rejected it

Then yes, you're no longer continually just like it says those who are being sanctified So those who are continually just like it says in first john walking in the light as he is in the light

It's this continual walking being in christ It's not just a one -time moment because I don't even think you would agree if a person

Truly, you know in your mind was a christian and then they fell away You would probably just say that they never were a christian in the first place

Whereas the bible clearly says that those people have fallen away. You can't fall if you were never walking with Zach Let me hit this real quick german.

Can I hit this real quick? See, I think where the difference is between us you think you're the one doing it

I'm, not we're not saying that you do it. We believe the scriptures here and here's what paul says in first Thessalonians chapter 5 verse 23 now may the god of peace himself

Sanctify you completely and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our lord

Jesus christ he who calls you as faithful He will surely do it the reason he can make this

Offer right here in this promise that by a single offering he is perfected for all time Those who are being sanctified is because like it says right here in first thessalonians chapter 5

Is god is the one who is sanctifying it? He will surely do it So if it is a sin to walk away from the faith

Which it is a sin like you admitted Then you cannot tell people that jesus christ died for all of your future sins

Because you're not believing the scripture is because you're trusting in yourself not in christ alone. We trust in christ

He will surely do it sanctifies That's why he can make this promise. Go ahead Yeah, but like I clearly stated earlier is that those who are in christ

They have received the once and for all atoning sacrifice of jesus christ Again, there are passages that clearly state that those who were in christ.

They have fallen away I understand you would have to reject those to hold your position. Yeah, of course question Yeah, um, so in the moment of baptism for a person was the potential for them

Uh committing the sin to walk away also forgiven in baptism Can you restate that again?

Yeah, so In a lot of the proposition, uh When someone is getting baptized and all of their sin is getting washed away according to your position

Does that include the potential future sin of them walking away from the faith? I mean

I would again say those who are in christ All their sins are forgiven Including the one of them apostatizing

I see again in my mind that would be a deeper understanding because that's them rejecting what god has offered just like when you look at hebrews chapter 6 those who have

Maybe not that sin. They've fallen away because again those people have fallen I believe that you know those who are in christ

Nobody can come and snatch them out But that person can lose faith just like we've seen in revelation.

Is that a sin? Is that a sin to lose faith? Again it would be the rejecting of Right.

Is that rejecting? Is that sin? Yes or no? Yeah, like I said, it would be okay. Thank you.

Okay. I want to move. I have a question Oh, can I ask one quick one quick? Okay. Yeah, go. Okay.

Let me let me go ahead. I'm just gonna keep this Well, really really really quick who do you believe is doing the sanctifying are you sanctifying yourself or is it the lord sanctifying you

Like you mean in the work of sanctification Yeah, again in I kind of view the same things like it's god, you know, it's us working out the you know

Our salvation that that sanctifying work leading up to glorification just like you might say that there's a one -time

Justification quoted you kind of quoted philippians chapter 2 Even though it was out of context the next verse says it is god who will gives you the will and the power to actually

Do that, but do you think it's you doing the sanctification or god? No, again sanctification is a work that we're doing again to you know,

I wouldn't say you could say maybe I know like you guys might say something like it's 50 50 or that's the what when uh

Me and god are we working together? So you wouldn't say Now man got a piece himself sanctify you he will surely do it.

Go ahead your mom. I'll let him All right, so new set of questions, uh, zach. Thank you so much for your kindness, man

I hope we're not coming across too fiery here. No, I love my new question My new question is are individuals today?

Saved the same way as individuals were in the old testament I would say there's a new covenant again.

Um, I would say that jesus effectuates that by his his cross But there's a different there's a new and living way that we have access to god

There's new circumstances that are that's found in a new covenant again The death bear on resurrection being now apply like baptism in the new testament

You know john is performing a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins But then after the death bear resurrection, there's a new understanding of this

Greater baptism that jesus is providing that those who are in christ are being actually buried and you know raised with jesus

So are you saying we're saved the same way as old testament saints or is there a newer and better way?

Is that your understanding of the new covenant? I I definitely lean towards that the new covenant does bring in a better hope like i've already shown in the old testament a different method of salvation

Yeah, so the sins in the old testament were continually being covered by the animal bloods Whereas now we have the once and for all perfection in jesus christ

So now those who are in jesus christ are now perfectly justified So you so you believe in two gospels two different methods of salvation.

Is that a correct understanding of your view? I mean again, it's still always the same in the sense of that god had them to follow the law

You know follow these things if they didn't they were to be cursed they were to be kicked out They were so a way to follow that same law

No, so now we follow what's given in the new testament Just like peter's to tell them to in the imperative

He tells them to repent and be baptized in the imperative for the forgiveness of sins I don't think that that exact phrase is found in the old testament that exact same way for the forgiveness of sins

So that's why I would take the position that in the new testament. We see this happening in the new testament

Different Two different methods of salvation. You just said in the old testament They were to take they were to participate in ceremonies and be saved and now in the new covenant

It's the once finished sacrifice in christ. So that's two different gospels. Wouldn't you agree? No, so again,

I would still say it's still like you are believing in doing I mean i've said already that belief is a verb

In the active was something that you're doing just like in the old testament They're still believing and doing something same thing in the new testament you're believing and doing so faith is an active verb

I'm, not disputing believing and doing i'm disputing that we are not obeying the same list of commands

Like you're saying old testament saints did a different method a different gospel of salvation I mean if if there was an example that was given

I might be able to address that question a little bit further We don't have to get into example We can talk about the concept you either believe in one gospel that all saints have believed in or you believe in two methods

Of salvation in two different gospels of salvation What do you think

I mean, there's definitely something new in the new covenant. So that's what i'm going on Is new a separate method of salvation or is it something that brings greater greater clarity of how salvation it was accomplished in the old testament

Again, I would say in the new testament. There is the complete forgiveness unlike in the old testament I don't think that there was a possibility for complete forgiveness of sins for those who are in the old covenant

Earlier you said that in the old testament they were forgiven

By the sacrifices of blood. Do you agree? Is that what you're saying? It was a continual covering so yom kippur was a continual covering of those sacrifices in hebrews chapter 10

It shows you that it wasn't actually it never actually effectuated what it was intended for Exactly.

So when were those sins actually? Forgiven Of the old so again. Yes, I would believe that the old testament saints, you know, jesus christ his blood did cover them as well in regards to at the cross but again being in that old covenant, for example one had to be circumcised and keep the passover for the

The proselytes to come into that covenant for them to effectuate those promises and blessings

Because the torah was a blessing and a curse but you had to first be in the covenant be a sojourner amongst israel

Just like today in order to effectuate the promises of the new covenant you have to be anything what they're doing

So by them doing something it effectuates the relationship with god That's what causes god to love them is because of their obedience.

Yeah, because believing is something that one is doing That's why it is in the verb and it is active.

It's something that you are doing. It's not passive I would love for you to show me in the book of john somewhere where it says that Belief, I don't think you believe the book of john

Or I do keep saying that Okay, let me ask you Real quick just because we're here.

Can I do that real quick? Um, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely go to john the uh, chapter 22,

I guess it is um Let me turn there uh

John chapter 20. I'm, sorry verse 30 And 31 it says now jesus did now, you know that No, I don't think repentance is required in the book of john

Nowhere is the baptism of jesus christ in the book of john But john chapter 20 verse 30 and 31 says now jesus did many other signs

In the presence of the disciples which are not written in this book But these are written so that you may believe that jesus is the christ the son of god

And by believing you may have life in his name Do you believe that that's the reason the holy spirit wrote the book of john and that by believing in jesus christ?

You may have eternal life in his name Yeah, so verse 31 says that but these are written so that you may believe again

That is a verb in the subjective active second person plural that jesus is the christ the son of god

And that be by believing again is a verb in the present participle active

So again, it's something that they are doing which I don't think but you don't have to so you don't believe that you have to so You you do agree so you don't have to be baptized in order to have eternal life in his name

Again one has to believe and what does it entail to believe it's to follow what he said in regards to how

Can you can can someone read the book of john and come to saving faith and eternal life by believing in jesus christ?

It says the reason this book was written. Yeah, just like you said earlier Yeah, and just like you said earlier that repentance isn't found in the book of john

You won't find that but you would look at the book of acts and say look you have to repent It's a command in the imperative to repent but you're saying that that's a part of the regeneration

So it doesn't say that either It's saying that believing is something that you're actively doing which

I don't believe you you believe that repent Believing is something given to you. It's not something that you're doing

Believing is according to this in the greek. It's something that you are doing not something that's being done to you or given to you

That's fine Let me ask you it doesn't say that you have to be baptized though I mean, it doesn't the reason it's written it doesn't say you have to believe that jesus is this is

Is this you know, the trinity the word the trinity or the the doctrine of of?

Okay, that's fine I would like for that to be understood too.

Okay So the book of john is incomplete and the holy spirit's wrong that it you that's not when the book was written

Go ahead. No, we take the whole counsel of god again Jude once is that the uh, the once for all faith that was delivered to the saints and again, jesus.

Okay, john Do you think that you have to have the whole bible in order to be a christian to know everything to do to be saved

No, just to be a christian All you need to know is I would say is the gospels and the book of acts after that how to after that is um again, like how to like you don't need to know every single finite detail all you need to know is who jesus is

And all you need to do is believe in who he is You know, you already know or so the book of acts is written the book of acts is written about 65 ad

So what happened to all those people before that if they had to have the book of acts in order to be saved? Again, the gospel message is very fast and clear like you just say again

Like I said, who is jesus christ you have to believe in that he's you know I believe that you have to say he's he's god.

He is the second person in trinity He is the great I am and he died buried resurrected on the third day

You have to believe in what he did Then you have to repent change your mind as it is said in the imperative something that you're going to do

And then you're going to confess jesus as lord and you're going to be baptized Which is something that is passively done to you.

So again even talking about walking to the baptistry or getting up again That's not baptism. What is baptism?

Okay, uh Andrew, you know, I mean I would love to hear a little bit and zach you're doing a fantastic job

I appreciate it, but I have a question out of the book. Thank you. You want to chime in there? So look with me real quick, uh to romans 3 27

Paul says then what becomes of our boasting it is excluded by what kind of namas law

By law of works. No, but by the law of faith What's your understanding when paul says the law of faith there?

Um, let's see here hear that again So So this is talking about it's just talking about how we're justified by the works, uh of Faith and not the works of the law that we're talking about here

All right. Are you asking me about the broader context? Yeah. Yeah. Well, i'm assuming well

I don't want to take your time Maybe just clarify for me a little bit. Well, i'm asking your understanding of what paul means by the law of faith there so the law of faith,

I would say Without having really looked at it. I would think it makes it makes my mind think of the first corinthians.

I think it's first corinthians 9 I can't remember the exact verse 21. I can't remember where paul talks about how he's not under the law

Uh of the old law, but he's under the new law the law of christ So I would say do you think that's the same?

Do you think that's the same context here Do you think that's still the same context here paul's using the romans 3?

Well, I know in romans 3 in verse 20. He talks about by the works of the law. No flesh will be justified

I would say that's talking about the mosaic law. I'm, not sure if you agree with me or not on on that So are you but what's the law of faith?

Where then is posting is excluded about what kind of law of works, you know about law of faith

Yeah, I would say it's it's not by the mosaic law, but it's by the new covenant law the new law of christ

That's it's that law by which we're justified the new covenant, thank you so What your understanding is that christians paul saying we are in no way shape or form under the law of the works of moses

Yes paul and romans romans Seven verses four through six paul clearly says that we've been released from the wall and he clarifies what he's talking about.

Yeah Okay, and I appreciate it. So look with me early verse 19 Paul says now we know that whatever the law so to be consistent in your view

This would be the the entirety of the mosaic law all 613 commandments As it speaks to those who are under the law now, you're saying that's not christian.

That's not paul here, right? When you say that's not paul here like yes, i'm talking about those under the law.

Those are under the law talk about The jews people who are trying to keep the law of moses, right? You're saying jews not gentiles, but the problem is

So that every mouth may be stopped now you're saying just jewish mouths and I would continue to say

And the whole world may be accountable to god now earlier in the context paul says we've already charged that all both jews and greeks or gentiles are under sin because A part of the mosaic law is the moral law that is still binding on us today

Or do you reject that we're no longer under the moral law? I Say we're yes,

I think we're under the law of christ which has moral laws within it, but we're not under the law that the gentiles were under outside of the israelites in the old testament, so We're no longer under love the lord your god with all of your heart soul mind and strength well

If we love god, we keep his commandments and and part of his commandments is to love your brother and love your neighbor Right, that's that's in first john.

Where is your thing? Where is that? Where is that verse come from? Um to love god and love neighbor

Yeah, so just so yes, I think is it deuteronomy? I know it's in the old testament, right? Deuteronomy and leviticus, okay

I thought deuteronomy. I'm sure about leviticus, but yes, um just because something is in the old testament

If it is repeated or quoted in the new testament, it may or may not be carried over just like I'm in the united states.

Therefore i'm under us law I'm, not under the laws of canada, right? I don't live there, but there may be overlapping laws, right?

Even though i'm not under canadian law It's still illegal as far as I know it's illegal to murder there just like it's illegal to murder here

Right, but i'm not under so my question But yeah, but what i'm asking about is does the moral law still stop the mouths of everyone today?

Yeah, well, yes and the law of christ, I think question If the moral law still stops the mouths of people today does that mean you can perfectly

Love god in obedience to being baptized. Are you able to perfectly fulfill that moral law?

No, i'm not no one is able to perfectly fulfill the law that's why we have to be baptized passively baptized into christ

Like galatians 2 16 talks about we're saved by the faith of christ in the genitive. It's his faith It's the faith that belongs to christ.

That's what we're saved That's why I need to be baptized into him to be saved by his faith because my faith can never be perfect enough

Right because by trying to obey the moral law even if it's a new command in the new testament

You are taking us back to the moral law that shuts our mouth. So i'll throw it over to you tray at the last minute

Uh, yeah, galatians 2 16 you said Yes, I believe that's uh, it's not justified by works of law but through faith in jesus christ

Yes You said the faith of christ so yes

I think it says but we're saved through faith in christ. So we also believed in christ jesus in order to be justified by faith

Sorry, was that a question? Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt there Are we saved we're saved by his faith?

A person is justified by works of the law not by just by works of law But we are justified you're saying it's saying we are justified through the faith of jesus

Yes All right. Okay That's time right there. That's time.

Hey andrew in the future You might want to get some headphones buddy because I think what's going on is that as jeremiah or trey is speaking

Their vocals just come to your speaker and your noise cancellation on your computer is not moving as fast as it should

And so it's it's causing the echo to feed back so in the future just make sure you get some headphones All right, uh that said we're moving to closing statements and once again, these are five minute closings

Uh for each team and so zachary andrew you guys are back in the seat for your five minute closing

And once again, i'll start your time As soon as you guys begin to speak

Hey, zach, I think you're All right. Yes. Okay All right, you can hear me now

Yeah, uh, okay. Let me hold on. Let me let me set your time real quick. Zach. Hold on one second Why is it doing that?

Hold up All right, go ahead zach you got it for five minutes

All right. Thank you. So yeah, uh again a lot of fun a lot of stuff being thrown out But I want to just bring up this idea of believing again

I i've kept mentioning it's something that is a verb in the active voice meaning it's something that you're actively doing

It's not something that has been necessarily given to you. It's something that you're doing So when john 20 verse or 21 or 20 verse 31 says

But these are written so that you may believe it's something that you're doing You're going to believe because it's a verb in the present active

That you that jesus is the son of god and that by believing Right there again.

It's something in it's an active verb. So again, I don't think that that's been addressed But again, that's something that they're doing again also looking at Even the idea of um

Baptism again We're not saying baptism is something that you're at, you know, the walking or me getting up and doing it

See baptism is always used except for Acts 22 verse 16 because it's in the middle because the middle voice because that's paul recounting of what he what had happened to him

But if you look at the original account in acts chapter 9 The the the baptism that he undergoes is something that's passive because it's not him doing it

It's being done to him again. That's why baptism is not actively something you're doing.

It's actually the passive So again looking at that, um, we've brought up Again falling away things of that nature again.

The idea is those who are in christ have complete forgiveness However, the bible also talks about that you have to continually walk as he is in the light again

I don't think the calvinist position can actively answer those questions about falling away looking at that phrase

Actually falling away because you always have to understand that. Oh, well that person really wasn't saved

So I don't think that that's a good point also again acts 22 in the conversion of of paul

I mean in my mind, it's pretty clear I understand there's lots going on but calling on the name of the lord is something that according

To jeremiah and trey is something that he already did by praying to jesus and calling him lord

Whereas then the inspired Man ananias comes and says hey you need to Rise and be baptized wash away your sins calling on his name, but he already knew that he was praying to the lord

So again, just showing you that there's not consistent argument there again Clearly paul had he still had his sins because he had not washed away his sins by calling on his name

Give it to brother andrew Again, thanks for having us on And I enjoyed it

Marlon, thank you. Thank you trey. Jeremiah. Thank you all for being here. I wanted to do this with us I just hope everyone was able to see

The inconsistent answers that we received on the cornelius in acts 10 and also

Their answer on the gift of the holy spirit being for the forgiveness of sins, which again would confirm our position in x238

That repentance and baptism Were possible where people could actually do those things or have them done to them

Repent would be was in imperative in the active and baptism is in the passive So they could choose to repent and submit themselves to being baptized

In the passive prior to receiving the gift of the holy spirit, which as we've heard That's the point where sins are forgiven which again just confirms our position

But I don't really have anything else I wanted to say again. Just thank y 'all for being here. My bonus to do this

I'll just give up the rest of my time here I'll take that time And looking at you know looking at cornelius,

I mean he's also doing something that according to their position You only can do by by actively praying to jesus, you know being a god fear.

These things are pleasing to god This man has not yet been regenerated by the holy spirit because he receives the holy spirit after Peter comes to him and speaks words in which he will be future tense saved

But he's doing things like praying to jesus. So again, those things are done

Prior to so in my mind, it doesn't make any sense. How can one say that? Cornelius Was doing things that only saved people do but then he wasn't saved until later

And again, it clearly shows you that when you look at the god in acts chapter 11 How you're connecting it back to again like in my mind, it doesn't make any sense.

So I don't think it was answered Properly. I mean again, I really enjoyed this dialogue.

I mean again, this is um The time is really quick, but I mean again all this awesome stuff again, just looking at what we've presented

I don't think when it talks about the baptism and believing it was addressed properly Um, and again,

I thank you again so much and god bless lynn

All right Can you hear me? Yes, sir. Oh, what about it?

That's uh, I was muted. Um, but yeah, uh, I'll start your five minute you guys are your closing remarks five minutes in I'll start the time you'll be in this week

All right, I'm gonna start really quick So i'm sorry, you don't understand it the reverses for that as well.

But um The inconsistencies, I think the inconsistency is When you say that, you know when the bible's clear that we're saved just like abraham was saved romans 4

Abraham was saved this way. He was fully convinced that god was able to do what he promised. That's why his faith

Was counted to him as righteousness But his words counted to him were not written for his sake alone

But for ours also it will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead jesus christ

Therefore since verse 5 chapter 5 verse 1 we've been justified by faith. We have peace with god

Either we do or we don't and we do Because we're saved just like abraham was saved. I think the inconsistency is that look

Every you know, jesus died and once you're baptized you're forgiven for all of your past present and future sins all of them

But you can still lose your salvation. I think we showed you I think it was very clear And it's this is what's heartbreaking to me

Really coming from the church of christ my heart for those people is they think it's their doing and they're the ones sanctifying themselves

You're never going to find that in scripture. It's always god doing it. God will surely do it read the last few verses of Thessalonians chapter 5 that god is going to be the one sanctifying you

That's why he can promise you that he that christ because it was once for all sacrifice He is perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

So I think it's just very illogical and very Can just not even honest when you say that jesus died for all of your sins past present future

For those who are in christ Well, I agree. I agree. So now that you're in christ, guess what?

You're being perfected for all time because all your sins forgiven But you can't say you can still lose your salvation unless you're trusting in yourself in your own works and not christ alone

That's heartbreaking to me. I think that's very clear. Um Yeah, i'll give you three minutes if I have anything else i'll raise my hand

Thanks, mr. Bone. Well, I mean that's the big inconsistency tonight is you kind of heard. Zachary's answer.

Well That that future sin of walking away. Well, we it's kind of a sin but it you know that that's on you and it's like Well, that's why your your future sins can't be washed away in baptism

Um, he said believing is something that you are doing but we're compatibilists, right? That faith that is a gift from god the holy spirit now indwells us and causes us to continue to believe

And yes, we'd say that believing is something we're experiencing but not something we're doing by our works.

We addressed that it was not hard Baptism is always in the passive. Yes, but you're begging the question

About what ceremonies look like in the jewish mind when it signified spiritual realities that was never touched on never addressed because You know, we're right this goes all the way back to the torah when high priests

Were fully bathed in water that never washed away sin or literally caused them to be unclean in time in terms of the forgiveness of Sins, that is the continuity that jews in acts chapter 2 would have understood be baptized for the remission of sins

This would have pictured a likeness of being united with christ and his authority.

So that's the whole thing Yes, is there a moment in that ceremony that you're passive? Absolutely But I guess in your mind don't let anybody confess jesus as lord and say that they trust in him or answer any questions

Or literally move in the baptistry because uh -oh now your ergon now your works are now at play

Acts 22 16 was brought up Once again, they beg the question of be baptized and what it means to wash away sins.

It's not literal It's signify the washing away of sins signifies the moment that you are justified positionally before god

They are confusing the representation for the reality ananias is being a faithful christian proclaiming the gospel in this ceremonial

Um context that is picturing the gospel cornelius is easy because he's a godfear.

He is an old testament Regenerate saint who doesn't know that jesus of nazareth is the one that forgives sins

So he's a godfear. Of course, he can pray to god because he is regenerate under old testament standards In acts chapter 11.

What does it mean that he was saved? Well, he was saved in the name of jesus of nazareth

Go ahead Right. So 50 seconds and to say that that to call name of lord means Baptism, so i'm assuming here in genesis chapter 4

To seth also a son was born and he called his name enosh at that time people began to get baptized into jesus christ

Nope, it says to call on the name of the lord That's when they had heart changes when they started coming to the lord

Jesus christ with a heart change of repentance and looking to him in faith and faith alone to be saved By him and their own works.

That was a different gospel. That was a different method of salvation Yeah, so to say that call the name of the lord means that means equivalent equals to baptism

It's just not not true I'll give you 10 seconds. Get it get it

No, hey, thank y 'all so much. I did I did appreciate this whole debate.

It was fun. Thank you so much marlin Thank you so much Um y 'all for being on here with us All right, thank you guys as well for a fantastic debate you guys definitely kept it under control

Now i'm expecting jeremiah to get a little wild, you know, because jeremiah's a wild dude Especially when

I talk about he keeps challenging me to basketball and you know, you're gonna learn one day All right good stuff guys so we're gonna jump into this uh, this uh q a we got 20 minute q a guys and we're gonna

Jump in here with the first question of the evening and uh

Rules to the q a guys both you guys once again to be both teams to get one minute each It's kind of hard to read.

I understand you guys squinting your eyes I'll read it as many times you guys need me to read it Uh, but the rules are both you guys get watch both teams and get one minute each to respond to the question

All right, and uh, let's get into it. All right So first question here is coming from living by the way

Is there a difference be a being baptized from for sin in comparison to baptize to be saved?

He didn't put a name to a team Particularly particularly to the question. So jeremiah trey you guys want to tackle this one first Yeah, is there a difference of being baptized for sin or in comparison to being baptized to be saved?

Um, I don't think that you getting dunked in water is going to save you period I think it's you're saved by faith and trust in jesus christ.

Go ahead jim Yeah, well baptism doesn't justify you before god positionally

That's by faith and when we read first peter 321 that baptism now saves you well It saves you in type right because it signifies that reality, but baptism is part of our sanctification, but it never justifies or regenerates an individual so that's those are the proper categories that have to be understood that baptism if You believe that your participation in baptism justifies you before god

Well now you are adding your working participation As the means to be made right with god well galatians 1 to the judiazers those that are looking to the old testament law

Well, you've obliterated the gospel of grace You are falling away from the gospel of grace because you are trying to add something that you can do

And participate to the finished work of christ All right, zachary and andrew um, yeah,

I mean in my mind it's Baptism is to be saved because in act chapter 2 that's what the text says

It's for the forgiveness of sins looking at you know, they brought up, uh mark 16 16 believing and baptized is

That you will be saved. So that's how that's how I would kind of look at that. But uh, andrew you have anything Well, just Yeah, just with the mark 16 16 that you brought up regarding this question

If i'm not mistaken mark 16 16 Both the belief and baptism, uh, just do and baptizo are both in the aorist tense.

They both Come prior to the future tense salvation there so I think the nasb translates it correctly

He who the one who has been baptized and or has believed and has been baptized shall be a future tense

So they both come prior to salvation. I think that probably connects with that. So I don't think there's a difference um

All right, and this question is for zach and andrew

And uh, do you do you take the eucharist if so, is it is it remembrance or real presence?

It's kind of off topic a little bit, but oh man, not really I mean taking communion.

Yeah, that would be a representation of you know, what's happening, you know, uh, Again, I wouldn't call the eucharist because I don't think it's the literal body of jesus christ, but that would be uh, not literal

Yeah, jesus says do this in remembrance of me so I would say remembrance All right train jeremiah

Yeah, I would say this is a good hermeneutical Good hermeneutical lesson right here context is king, right?

And so If you're going to say things well, it says this and that's what it means That's going to be bad hermeneutics because it says here jesus says this is my body

This is my blood but you look at that and you say well, it's actually a representative There you go.

There's your answer for baptism This is for the forgiveness it's representative of the true spiritual reality that it represents go ahead jay yeah, lutherans would be mad at y 'all's interpretation because they're going to say no no both baptism and The eucharist or lord supper is both instrumental in forgiveness of sins

It's our position that says well, what is a ceremony especially in the jewish mind? It signifies these things not one time in this whole debate.

Did y 'all address that point? In my opinion because you can't you mentioned mark 16 16 16 that you must believe

And be baptized in order to be saved future where you must be justified by faith by believing

And that you have to work out your salvation and baptism and all that He's commanded us and salvation is future tense in terms of our glorification

Plus they don't believe that you will be saved, but you could be All right, all right and we have a question here this is for um, jeremiah and trey

Let's go right, uh question thoughts that The thoughts that whoever allows himself to be baptized on the strength of his faith

Is not only uncertain but also in idolaters Who deny christ for the trust?

in And uh, I think the second part to this question Uh on something of his own namely a gift

Which has from which has from god that is faith and not on god's word alone

I I think it's a quote. Is that a word? Yeah, it's a quote from martin luther um, but If I can sort of summarize the question to sort of capture what he's trying he's trying to ask her

Um, I believe that the question is sort of kneeling on The concept of being baptized within one's own strength versus being baptized by god's power if that if i'm

Sort of summarizing it correctly. I think that's sort of what it's capturing And can you hit the second part of that?

Yeah Uh, namely a gift which is from god

Yeah, so i mean I think what what luther listen I i feel sorry for john calvin.

He gets such a bad rap because luther had a beer in his hand He was angry. He was he was ready to fight. You know i'm saying and so luther

Even says if you looked at the cross If you just looked at the cross and you think by your own intellect and logic that you come to understand christ

You're not saved because it's nothing of you So I think what he's saying here with luther Is saying if you think that you're coming to him and you're going to get baptized and do all this stuff

Pleasing like dude, you're not dodger. And so of course once again, it's not what you do

Christ alone. So go ahead german Hmm Well as much as I love and respect martin luther.

I'm, not a lutheran for a reason I believe in simpra reformanda, baby, because I believe there is more reforming that needs to happen

One thing that I love that martin luther got right was justification is by faith alone.

Now, I think what martin luther inherited from rome was Exactly what our interlocutors are saying that you do nothing in your baptism

This is merely the expressed word and the problem is, uh, Then you no longer can you can no longer express your faith in your action if you participate at all

Will you now have worked to some degree? All right, uh zach and andrew any thoughts

Honestly, this question is went above my head to be honest I mean i i can respond.

I mean I could respond to what jeremiah just said I don't think that's just part of the discussion. I don't think I have anything for this

We'll just move on to the next question though, I understand that question sort of it's a lot to that question So, uh, it's all good.

It's all good So we'll move on to the next question here and this question's for zach and andrew

The question is is is salvation a work of god alone or of god and man?

Well, I would say again Go ahead. You go. You got it. Yeah Well, i'm just going to say according to philippians one.

It's both Or according to philippians one verses four through six. It is it involves your participation in it from the beginning

And that's why god's going to bring it to completion because of your participation in it from the beginning or from the first until now

And based on their continued participation in it just like first corinthians 15. They're being saved. It's a continual process if conditional word if They hold fast if they continue in So And I would just say again believing we've shown that the word pistou

You know, john chapter 20 verse 31 is something that you do. It is a verb in the active again

I don't know how else that could be taken if that's something that you're doing All right

All right, here's what fishbone's gonna say philippians 1 6 does not say anything what you just said andrew it says i'm sure of this

That he who began a good work in you not you and him He who began a good work and you will bring it to completion at the day of the jesus christ again

You are saved forever the christian and then he says this now He does say this in verse 29 for it's been granted to you two things for the same christ

You should not only believe that was granted to you, but also suffer So those are the two things granted to you.

So no it it's it's salvation is god god alone mono mono

Chisholm Yep. Yep. Can I follow up with that fishbone?

Yep And those whom god in the past tense predestined he also called for those whom he called he also justified

And those whom he justified are those and those whom he justified he also glorified just like trey

It's not Well, I mean, I just that's paul, you know, so I just had to throw that in there All right.

All right Moving on to the next question moving on to the next question here Uh, this question is coming from denine.

Thank you denine for the question. This question is for both Uh when scripture speaks of baptism, is it always referring to something done in water?

Uh, she did it's for all so, uh, I guess jeremiah trey you guys want to take this one first Uh, yeah, go ahead so when it says that israel was all baptized into moses

Well, I don't think they were literally baptizing moses. They were identifying themselves with moses and The things he was saying when jesus says

I have another baptism to go through He's not talking about getting dunked in water. He's talking about the cross and going there and so it signifies different things

That's a quick answer jeremiah. I'll take the 30 seconds Well trey did a good job of saying, uh, there are multiple kinds of baptisms different ways of being immersed

The question is always into what context but when we're talking about the ceremonial white, uh, right immersed into water

Well, of course something is being done You have a baptizer who hopefully is declaring the gospel of grace like ananias was and you have another person expressing their faith with a particular action and getting into The font and many of those people like the apostle paul like many people they are confessing

Jesus is lord and savior in their baptismal bath, but that signifies the work that god has already done in their heart and in their life

All right, zachary and andrew Yeah, I would agree that there are multiple kinds of baptisms like trey and jeremiah just brought up but specifically what

I was dealing with was again, the right context is being immersed into christ and that is where Justification lies in christ unlike the old testament continual animal sacrifices in christ

You have the once and for all animal sacrifice the true sacrifice that is way better than the animals according to the old testament

Yes, I uh, I agree multiple different baptisms. Of course, you got ephesians 4 5 there's one lord one faith one baptism, which

It's not a contradiction because I believe it's talking about one baptism that saves just like there's one many lords But there's one lord who saves there's one system of faith that saves even though there's many different religions

So in the context there is one baptism that saves i'm hoping that we defended that tonight

Uh, but yes many different types of baptisms and scripture All right.

All right and moving on to the next question here and this question is for zach and andrew

Coming from the tatted theologian himself What's going on, all right There he is for for zach and andrew

Is abraham who we look at as an example to be justified? Was abraham an example that we look to to be justified yes in the yes in this in the sense that Abraham was saved apart from the works of the law and apart from circumcision in a religious uh in a religious right and religious sense

Also james 2 21. It was not our father abraham justified by aragon by aragon

Yes, yes, he was the his faith was completed perfected it reached the goal the telos or the teleos or the teleo

There it was perfected. The scripture was fulfilled abraham. Believed god. It was fulfilled It was brought to completion of perfection when he offered up his son isaac

Had nothing to do with the mosaic law had nothing to do with circumcision. So yes, he is our example to have

Saving obedient faith All right, uh, jeremiah Yeah, it breaks my heart andrew's answer to that i'll tell you of course he's he is because He was saved because he was fully convinced that god was able to do what he had promised

That's why his faith was counted to him as righteousness not his works Of course, it wasn't the law of moses because he predated moses 400 to 600 years prior so that's why it had nothing to do with the law of moses

He was saved by faith Just like everybody in the bible has always been saved by faith and everybody in the future will be saved by faith alone in christ alone

Yeah, and that's where it gave andrew a little bit of fits earlier when I asked him about romans 3 27

It's not the principle of works which the entirety of the mosaic law rested on that justifies a person

No, it's the principle the namas of faith. That is how abraham was justified positionally before god by his his firm trust

And then we see that that is the same way that christians all there's only been one way of salvation one gospel

The old testament saints trusted in the messiah to come and we look we trust in what messiah has accomplished and finished

All right, all right And here's the final question right here. We'll have two more questions here and then we'll we'll close it out for tonight.

Um Uh, why did philip baptize the eunuch after he believed what would be the point this question for you jeremiah and trey what you guys got for jeremiah trey one of you guys

Okay, i'll start it off. Um, well the just shall live by faith. I mean this this is kind of I mean

I just want people to hear uh, if he Philip preached the gospel of grace to the eunuch

He would have received that gospel in faith therefore justified and then he would demonstrate his faith by action

And his participation in the command to be baptized So we're justified by faith apart from works and then we live in sanctification to the glory of god before the watching world

Yeah, look, here's the deal Again, no jewish person believed that the physical the ones who were saved by god

No, they didn't think that the circumcision of the flesh actually did anything It was just a sign that pointed to the spiritual reality

Now the legalist people thought them doing the action is what made them right with god same thing with baptism new covenant new sign

Baptism baptism is a sign of the true spiritual reality of god changing your heart putting you in covenant community with god and his people

The legalist would say no the action itself is what did it? All right, zach and andrew

Yeah, I would just say this is the same thing that we see in acts chapter two the people they hear the gospel

They believe it and then they you know, repent confess and they're baptized. So right here you can see he preaches him

Jesus he sees water what forbids him from getting baptized because that's what's connected when you preach jesus

You preach water baptism because it is in the means of water baptism And when you are immersed into jesus and you're united with him and therefore die with him and have been justified roman 6 7

All right Andrew i'm good Okay. All right Yeah, and we're gonna end on sort of a funny note, uh the and an unapologetic cat, uh

This wants to know if jeremiah's beard is real This this beard signifies a greater reality of a beard actually

Fair enough It does look kind of paste it does look kind of pasted on jeremiah does

I like god. God gave it to him. That's a real beard Hey, man, you got the real zack's coming around You got that zack about to have that calvinist beer soon man, you're gonna be reformed here soon, right?

You're gonna be reformed. Hey, just hey be careful reading the bible zack because you're gonna be reformed if you do or You could just have that goatee like me man, you know, you could that is satisfying

I got your hair like you because I think yeah, I know right? Yeah Pressure Exactly exactly, but ain't never i'll be a ball

Martin thank you so much. But um, this is fun.

But can you tell your brother from another mother travis thomas? I said hello uh I'll be killing me bad with him man.

Y 'all killing me. You're killing me but on that note i'm out of here man, i'm about to just log off on that note, but uh

Good stuff god, I appreciate you guys so much man. I really did really do it's sort of late on you guys inside man

So you guys go ahead get some rest? And uh clock out for the night knock out. So I appreciate you guys once again

Uh with that said, uh, you guys have any like closing words as far as deep party words for each other before I let you guys

Go man Started with Jeremiah and trey what you got?

So I just want to thank marlin. Thank you for letting me, uh come back on Um, I just want to encourage people if you want to check out some more of my content

Please go to the apologetic dog youtube channel. I have a website also where a big part of my ministry is

Evangelizing the church of christ with the gospel of grace. I'll also have a lot of eschatology content on there as well

I've got a lot of upcoming content a lot of awesome episodes And so I just want to encourage people if you don't if you haven't seen um our ministry me and trade do a lot

Uh together we we say what about it and then we get into it. Thanks so much for letting me come on marlin

All right. All right. All right. Yeah. Thank you. Love the people in the church christ Hope you just read the bible read it slowly read it in context and um

Praying for you. Thank you marlin. It was just fun Zach and Andrew Yeah, I also you know, thank you guys a lot for letting me to come on here and you know

Have this awesome discussion again. This was our first time. So I mean again, hopefully next time it will be a little better I would actually maybe think in the future we could do one on uh, eschatology um

You know, that'll be a fun one. Um But yeah, you know again awesome, uh time.

Um, yeah, just grateful to be here. And again, just thank you for having us Oh also one more thing.

I have a youtube channel. Let's talk apologetics Check that out. Um, it's still new. I got a lot of stuff.

I'm gonna still be putting out. Um, but yeah Thank you guys It's good to meet all y 'all.

Thanks for having us on Really appreciate it. Um Yeah Yeah, check out his channel too.

Yeah, he's got some good stuff on there I know we're all I know we're all on the same page. I think on the deity of christ. So And we love presuppositional apologetics.

Uh, Uh, i've read a lot of greg bonson's works, you know, i'm trying to get into van till but man

Is How can you do the presuppositional apologetic and be church of christ

All right, and you gotta be now the post meal you post me on andrew I got here now.

You're good. I want to debate jeremiah on here about post meal. I'm ill Trey I don't want to do that to you, man

Jesus hits the home run. I don't have to hit it. I did get you another premium this All right guys i'm gonna let you guys know but I really enjoyed you guys appreciate you guys and uh,

You guys go ahead enjoy the rest of the evening, man. Hopefully we can do this again sometime. All right guys. Take care See you boys

Thank you. All right. Take care. Bye All right, guys another fantastic debate the books god.

I hope you guys enjoyed it All right. I hope you guys enjoyed it. Have fun learn something you know and you know

You know Like I always say this right? Uh when we're dealing with these debates chances are you're gonna walk away with your mind changed, right?

You know, we pray to god that you know people who are in That that need to be saved, you know salvation needs to come to many

We pray that god uses these debates to bring people to himself, right? We pray that these debates are conduits for salvation

And so, uh, certainly I obviously hope that people walk away with their hearts and minds changed from these debates

Um, and god could very well do that But you know the percentages say that that's not likely that usually people don't walk away with their hearts and minds change after a debate

But if there's anything that these debates do it is an encouragement to drive deeper into study

And perhaps god will use those studies to change hearts and minds, right? And so, um

That's what we're hoping that happens, right? And uh, this debate was fun. Very interactive

Very polite the decorum was excellent. And that's what I expect from these guys, man. So big ups to trey

Jeremiah andrew and zachary, so I definitely appreciate them guys for doing that Um, just one announcement, uh, if you guys have not seen the community post on youtube

It is said I posted up there That uh, trent horn has decided not to participate in the in -person debate with anthony rogers um and so I am either going to Switch it up with two other guys or try to find another great partner with anthony rogers

Because I really do want to do an in -person debate here in 2025. So i'm gonna work my

My backside off my butt off to try to get that in -person debate done And so, um, yeah

Be able to be able to look out for any updates concerning that And hopefully we'll be able to get that done because I really want to get one in I haven't done one in quite some time

But as I said, I thank you guys for joining me and I hope that you guys will have a blessed evening And I look forward to you guys joining me next time on the gospel truth

Next time it will be jp and cj cox and they will be debating Our guide decree all things.

So hopefully you guys are looking forward to That debate coming up here soon on the gospel truth

If you have yet to do so subscribe and hit that notification bell on the gospel truth Don't miss any shows interviews and commentaries that are coming up here in the future

And just stay locked in man Just stay locked in man support the ministry with a like subscribe and share

And hit that like on the way out of the live chat Please hit that like keep that algorithm going so many people can see this debate.

All right Well, as I said, i'm about to get out of here. I thank you for joining me joining us And once again, thank you to jeremiah trey zach and andrew for joining me and I hope to see you guys soon