Keep sharing good news without ads.
No description available
Comments are turned off for this media
Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.
Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the United States, it's 1 -866 -854 -6763.
And now with today's topic, here is James White. He walked the Lord seven short years before a tragic plane crash killed him and two of his children, yet his music ministers to many today. In fact, of all the influences I could list at the vitally important time of my life, that was high school and college, his music would be near the top of the list.
As I walked the halls of Independence High School and one of the very few open Christians there carrying my Bible and getting the looks and comments such behavior will always receive, his music was in my mind and in my mouth.
His name was Keith Green. He died July 28, 1982, 20 years ago next month. He was only 28 years old. Today we celebrate what the Lord did and continues to do through the music ministry of Keith Green. This is a personal story.
Most of those with whom I have spoken have very personal feelings about Keith Green's music, especially if they're the same age as I am. Toward the end of my sophomore year in high school in late 1978, the Lord renewed my love and commitment to him.
I felt a deep and abiding love for his word and I began memorizing it and studying it voraciously. But I also love to listen to music. And so I began to listen to Christian music. My parents had some Bill and Gloria Gaither albums around and I can still sing along with Doug Oldham as well as anyone else.
I joined the youth choir at church and eventually was chosen to sing bass in a traveling singing ensemble called Liberation, the North Phoenix Baptist Church. It was during a trip with the youth that I heard someone else playing music that simply entranced me.
It was challenging. It was exciting and spoke to my heart in an almost prophetic fashion. That music was the music of Keith Green. The first song that I heard, the one that still makes me stop and listen even to this day when I hear its opening bars and one that I've found is probably the favorite of most everyone else I've talked to, it starts off like this.
Of course, you recognize the song as Your Love Broke Through.
And as I'm watching the chat channel, we are live today. Many other people likewise found that to be one of their favorite songs. But I am very, very, very pleased today to be joined by, and I was thinking about this beforehand, everybody always says, well, my good friend, but Steve Camp and I are good friends.
Before we bring Steve up, I hope he can hear me. I was just mentioning in the chat channel, there's so many young people even in our own chat channel that I've been mentioning Keith Green and they go, who's Keith Green?
They've never heard of Keith Green before and that makes me feel old. And so I can't just automatically assume everybody's going to know my good friend, Steve Camp. So I put together a little anthology, a little collection of Steve Camp's music because Steve has, unlike Keith who was only given a small number of years, Steve has had a long ministry now in Christian music.
And some of you may have heard some of these songs, just didn't put names with song titles. And so before we bring Steve Camp on to give his recollections, his memories of Keith Green, and by the way, to take your phone calls at 877 -753 -3341, let's listen to a little bit of what Steve Camp's done.
So I am very, very happy to have joining me. And now we're going to have a few challenges here because Steve is on his cell phone. We had everything worked out, but you know how it works in God's providence.
Things change over time and airlines cancel airline flights and things like that. And you know, Steve, I honestly think there's a picture of you hanging in the American Airlines corporate headquarters.
Am I correct about that?
You know, you're not too far off from that. I just landed in Minnesota. I had a 6 .14 a .m. flight cancel, and people were ministering to the various heads over there in Nashville Airport. I have landed safely here, and I'm able to be on with you for the entire broadcast.
And so it is my joy to be with you today.
Well, I'll tell you, Steve, I really, really appreciate it. You will recall, I'm not sure how long ago it was now, two and a half, three years ago. I forget exactly how long ago it was. You and I stopped at a health food store right on the beach called McDonald's, and you started filling me in on just a very small portion of what you could relate about, really the genesis of what might be called modern contemporary Christian music.
And you started talking a little bit about Keith Green. How did you first encounter Keith, and how long ago was that?
Oh, boy, that's a great question. It was in 1977, I believe it was, 78. I was doing a banquet with Pat and Debbie Boone out in Los Angeles. Pardon me, I've been throwing bags here on the carousel. With Pat and Debbie Boone, it was a reception hosted by Word Records, and my first album for Word was just coming out at that time.
And I had heard of Keith. His first album had been released a few years earlier. For those who have ears to hear, a great record, a Christian classic. After the banquet, I had heard that Keith was in town, and some friends of mine arranged a meeting where we could have a chance to hook up and talk and spend some time of fellowship.
That was my first encounter with Keith. He had just bought, James, a couple of houses. He was a very good businessman, and he had bought a couple of houses over in a section of Los Angeles and was using them just to take in anyone off the street he could possibly take in to talk to them about the Lord.
When I went over there, we were all having hot dogs and beans and having a great time of fellowship. Some of the folks from the group's second chapter of Acts were there, just others that were part of that whole time.
I think Jamie Owens Collins might have been there, her husband Dan. We just had a lovely time of fellowship. Keith was really saying, Steve, I'm so concerned even then about Christian music and how people are not concerned about the poor and the unborn and how people are using it only to make profits for themselves.
I wonder what he would say today in the midst of everything. Initially, James had a tremendous zeal for the things of the Lord and his one theme, if there was a theme that marked his life and his ministry over the years, was this unending cry for revival for the church, for missions.
Near the end of his life, he was praying that the Lord, similar to William Booth and other great missionaries, Hudson Taylor, that the Lord would raise up, especially among young people, 100 ,000 missionaries, and in our case, musicianaries, to go out and to use music as an opportunity to do one thing, and that's to exalt the name of Christ and to share the gospel.
That was my first encounter with Keith. I didn't know, as you had pointed out earlier, that those encounters would be cut short. By now, 20 years ago, he is now home going to the Lord.
Now, I was doing some reading this week. He was converted at 21 and died at 28. Seven years is not a long period of time, and yet his music, how did his music, did his music have an impact on you as you continued on and all the other people?
What kind of impact did his music have on you and everyone else.
In the 1980s and 90s? Well, you know, Keith never fit the mold, did he? No. In fact, he broke it, not unlike a gentleman I'm talking to here on the radio this afternoon. He was not afraid, as you have not been, to speak the truth, to say it in love, but to really take on the hard issues.
And so last day's ministries, immediately we knew Keith was going to transcend the music area. He was calling back then for people to give away their products. He was calling back then for a reformation of the Christian music industry back to a ministry, a calling and cause that I have picked up throughout the years.
He was, again, at every single point where the industry was being fruitful, as it were, in worldly things, he was calling for great change. So I want you to know that his music, it wasn't just the songs.
It was the zeal and the life of this dear brother that was the real contagious element that was infectious for many of us in the industry at that time. I remember James Hymn coming up to me and saying to the festival, Steve, when are you going to get serious about the Lord?
Hey, I grew up in Wheaton, Illinois. You can't get much more serious than that. I grew up in the holy city, the Vatican City. We have more churches than fire hydrants. I was serious. I was born in a wonderful Christian family.
I went to Wheaton Bible Church most of my life. I had the pedigree. He was challenging me. Man, you know a lot about the Lord. Where is your zeal and passion for the lost? This music should not just be about you and another single and another number one song.
Think of eternal things. This is where he would constantly encourage me. We would have great discussions about this. The thing was I wasn't fighting him on those issues. I agreed with him. None of us really knew how it would take shape, and he didn't know either.
He said, boy, I'm just kind of heading out here. He started the Last Days newsletter with his album. My favorite of the Keith Green records, by the way, the album No Compromise. It was that record that really set him apart.
He coined a phrase that I use, James, to this day called concert crusades. I love that. It's opening up the doors for free. It's partnering with local churches. It's even making our products available for whatever people can afford so that money doesn't stand in the way of genuine ministry.
That's where Keith really made an impact as a co-laborer in Christ. He was willing at any point just to lay it down and risk it all. In fact, James, I was with him about a month before he had gone home to be with the Lord, visiting down at Last Days, seeing all the buildings and the people there that were doing work, and he and his precious wife, Melody, at that time.
She had written a great song, There is a Redeemer, a beautiful song, almost a modern-day hymn of our Lord and his redemption for his virgin daughter. It was coming out on that album, Songs for the Shepherd.
This song had so ministered to me at that time that here at Keith, Keith had an insatiable desire and honor to serve the Lord Jesus Christ. It was that thing during that time that was so impactful. They say last words are lasting words, and it was those last words that we had together.
He said, Steve, I'm willing to lay down music completely. I don't even want to sing another note if it can't bring glory to the Lord. In fact, he said, I'm willing to walk away from it entirely. He said, I'll just become a preacher or a teacher, a missionary, anything that I can do as long as my life glorifies the Lord.
Well, Steve, let me let you catch your breath for just one second while we listen to a little of the song you just mentioned.
Really one of the classics from Keith Green, There is a Redeemer,.
Just mentioned by our special guest today live. I cannot believe that he is able to do this. He is a multitasker. He is multi-talented. He is able to carry baggage while speaking on a cell phone in an airport.
His name is Steve Camp. I tell you, Steve, I don't want to embarrass you here, but you really whipped yourself into shape before the last time I saw you. I remember when I came out to Nashville last October.
You had dropped a bunch of weight. You were looking great. Now I know how you do it. You don't hit the gym. It's lifting those bags off those things with cell phones in your hand.
Yeah, it's layovers and traveling and lost luggage and all those things. It's fun, especially up in Minneapolis where I'm calling you from right now. They have, I think, the longest cord from the gate down to the baggage area in the United States.
It's big, but it's fun to be here.
Well, you know, that demonstrates the fact that you have breath control because you're a singer and I don't. That's why you're able to do this. Now, there's one thing that comes up over and over and over again.
Oh, by the way, Summer says hi. She just messaged me. She's listening over at the house, and she says hi. Summer says hi to you.
Hi, Summer. She is a great little gal, and I hope that she can meet my kids one day too.
Oh, it'll be cool to get you all together. That's the fun part doing webcasts. You can do anything you want like this, and no one can say boo about it. But anyways, the big thing that I'm hearing as I've started talking about Keith Green again is I get a bunch of Reform folks that immediately hit me with, oh, well, but his theology wasn't perfect.
I mean, he was really influenced by Charles Finney and all the rest of this stuff. How do you respond when people say things like, here's a person who was only a Christian for seven years. What do you say when folks bring issues like that up?
Well, first of all, his theology is perfect now, isn't it? Yes, it is. He knows the truth. All the holes are filled. You know, it's true. Keith came from more, I guess, of a holiness fulcrum in his view of theology.
He's captivated. No question. Charles Finney. And there are serious issues in Finney's theology. It's easier to cool down. And I think with Keith, you know, he would stress you on points of his beliefs.
He and I would lock horns biblically, theologically on many issues. But I found him in the end, even though there was a, you know, you had to wade through what seemed like a pond of piranha to get to him on some of those things.
I found him teachable, James, and I think that's the mark of a real disciple. The mathetas is the one who's a learner. And it's one of our hallmarks. My dear friend and mentor, Dr. John MacArthur, it's great to listen to John's tapes over these last 30-plus years of ministry at Grace Community Church because John has changed his views in some areas.
I think all of us would want to plug in the holes in our theology. We just don't know where they are. We want to honor the Lord with a perfect faith, a perfect doctrine. And so I think Paul brings my unity with Keith, at least with Ephesians 4, where Paul brings in verse 3, protecting the bond of the unity of the Spirit.
There's a unity that we have by relationship when we are baptized by Christ through His Holy Spirit into the body. And so I have a kinship, say, with Keith immediately because we are both united in Christ.
But then Paul, I think later in that chapter, in about verse 12 or 13, talks about until we all come to the unity of the faith. And so we realize that the growth in doctrine, the growth in theology is a process.
We don't arrive mature. That in Colossians 1, 28 and 29, that the job of the pastor of the church, the local church, especially the elders who are gifted in teaching, is to bring every man complete in Christ.
There's a process to our sanctification. And so though Keith and I would lock horns on issues of doctrine, I'm more Calvinistic and Reformed in my soteriology and other areas, I also have to own up to the fact that Calvin, as much as I love his dear brother, he never taught on the book of Revelation.
Eschatology was an escaping, kind of fleeting thing for him. And so do we discredit Calvin because he got it wrong on Revelation or maybe wrong on baptism? You know? Well, no. I always joke around, hey, listen, if we're doing a custodification by faith, man, you want R .C. Sproul there.
If you're doing it on baptism, you don't want him anywhere around the building. And I think that's the thing here, that we all have to be teachable and realize that none of us have come to full revelation on all aspects of doctrine.
But here's the key thing for me. Are the core issues, and I know this has been dear to your heart, James, throughout the year. Are the core issues intact? Are the essentials of the faith intact? And I have to say this with all kindness, that even though Finney denied original sin and other key essential doctrines, Keith did not, on the essential issues of the faith, the virgin birth, the authority of Scripture, the bodily resurrection of Christ, original sin, justification by faith alone, the doctrine of the essential doctrines, our brother embraced wholeheartedly.
And I have to say that even though he weighed in those Finney-esque territories and so forth, his music, for the most part, has been protected, hasn't it?
It was. You know, I'm looking at the Last Days Ministries website, and in the article on Keith's history, I found this, a very, very fascinating paragraph. It said, For Keith, meeting Jesus was one thing, becoming more like him was another.
After striving for years to measure up to God's holiness, at times questioning his own salvation, Keith came into a deeper understanding of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, both to forgive his sins and to clothe him in his own righteousness.
It wasn't that Keith became less concerned with purity and holiness, but he was now motivated more by love and less by fear in his pursuit of Jesus. And I think of some of his songs, and I'm sure you're familiar with them just as I am, but I think of especially When I Hear the Praises Start by Keith Green, that talks about you can't add anything to what I have done for you, that I wonder if that comes from what they're referring to there in that particular paragraph in his history.
Yeah. Well, you know, with Keith, James, some of his tracks that he put out through Last Days Ministries, some of them, What's Wrong with the Gospel, a two-part track, that was wonderful, that he was taking to task many people that were trying to water down the truth of the gospel.
Keith was, in many respects, more like Luther than like Finney. You know, he had a wonderful love for the truth against Romanism. Yes. Against the Roman Catholic Church, not because he had a bone to pick specifically with them, but he realized that this was the propagates as a different gospel.
And so if you look at a lot of the things that he wrote and was teaching and calling for, now he came from not only the holiness background, but also his call to revival, which I know a lot of people struggle with today.
Crusades there, that Winky Prattney, a dear friend of Keith, even shared with me that, you know, Keith was calling people to repent of their sin. And you might have even seen in his book No Compromise, the aerial photographs of the stage flooded with people prostrate before the Lord.
And Keith was calling for repentance and that he was being to Finney. Well, you know, Keith was gifted. And I think like any of us, like the Pratt is gifting to the Lord to be cauterized. And Keith was very powerful with his lips.
He was very persuasive, as Finney was and others throughout the years. But here, his motive was to call it revival. He came back apparently, James, after that ORU meeting and talked to Winky and said, is this what they did?
Is this what the great revivalists did? Constantly wanting to ministry in line with great theologians of redemptive history. And again, I think that's the hallmark of such a wonderful mark of this dear brother, is that he was teachable.
He had a zeal for the things of the Lord, not always in accordance with knowledge. You know, but he really has evidence now, after 20 years of his home going, that not only are we still talking about him, but more importantly that he's left a body of work that is unmistakably Christ-exalting, Christ-centered, true life.
And I use Keith today. We're seeing a lot of talent to be in it. They sing well. They even look. All these things that people look at, unlike myself.
Can they jump over drummers and things like that? That's right. Oh, yeah.
Don't worry. I'm not going to tell that story. You know, that which we have repented of, James, we don't want to bring. No, but I tried to do antics like that and received a humbling right away through the splitting of my trousers.
But we won't go there this afternoon. But it was a thing that today you see a lot of young artists, that even my most staunch opponents on this call to reformation of Christian music today agree that the industry primed it at its absent of sound doctrine and theology.
And so what you have is an industry that has been wrecked. I don't know if you can hear them screaming in the background. Only a little bit. But here, what you have is an industry today, James, that is teaching a large group of people, I mean literally millions of people around the world, how to feel God and not know God.
It's impossible to catechize with today's Christian music, even though there is some good things. I'm not trying to throw the baby out with the bath water or to a gift of amputation or throwing it all away.
No, there's some good things being done too. But with a lot of Keith's music, the one thing that I so appreciate is that it really teaches us from the Word of God about the character of our Lord or about the duty and the life of the believer in Christ.
That is missing from so much of Christian music today. And so I try to use Keith as a great example. He was wonderfully gifted, a fantastic piano player. Oh, yes. Could have signed a major multi-million dollar deal with Clive Davis and CBS Records and turned it down.
Not in a martyr kind of way or a false humility, prideful way of saying, look what I gave up for the Lord. But he could have competed on the national music scene with anybody in his time, whether it be Elton John, on and on it goes, Van Morrison.
Keith was that talented, a great writer, a great singer. But I have to say I heard some tapes of his earlier music before he met the Lord, or I should say rather before the Lord met him. That's right.
And chose him for salvation. And I tell you, he was great. He was really good. But his music didn't have passion and meaning until he was writing music about the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And I try to point to Keith as an example.
For a lot of younger artists today to say, what does a Christian musician dedicated to the things of God look like? We have George Beverly Shea and a past generation. We have Keith Green in our group.
Excellent stuff. Our special guest today is Steve Camp. He is joining us on his cell phone from the Minneapolis airport that I have been to. I have run through it many times myself because my publisher is up there, so I know exact fact.
You know I was born up there, right, Steve? I didn't know that. I was born in Robbinsdale, which is a suburb there in Minneapolis. So you're right near my hometown. And I'm going to let Steve take a breather.
We have two folks online. We're going to get to them. There's folks who want to talk to you, Steve. And I have an excellent example, while you catch your breath, of that kind of prophetic music from Keith Green.
And I'm also going to be asking you, Steve, for your favorite Keith Green song. But first let's listen to this.
Do you see all the people sinking down? Don't you care, don't you care? Are you going to let them drown? How can you be so numb not to care? You close the job's door. Even sheds one tear. But he cries, he weeps, he bleeds, and he cares for you.
And you keep on the street.
That, of course, is the music of Keith Green, Asleep in the Light. And I think that really exemplifies the prophetic style of song. I remember when I first heard that. You can't listen to that without being convicted by what is being said.
The church just can't fight because it's Asleep in the Light. And I'm afraid that I don't know that Keith would be overly happy with developments since he went home to be with the Lord as far as the church's ability to fight in the sense of being awake.
And we have a special guest with us today, Steve Camp, my good friend, a pioneer in his own way in Christian music. I'd like to, how could, you know, we never did get around, Steve, to figuring out. I have wanted to make Abandoned to God and Mercy in the Wilderness and things available through our ministry, and we've never gotten around to you and I working out how that works.
So how can people, especially, I get this question all the time, where can I find good Christian music today that has reformed themes and things like that, and Abandoned to God is just simply a classic along those lines.
How can people get hold of Abandoned to God?
Well, you're very kind to mention that. If they want to come to Omega Ministries, I'm delighted to afford that. People want to request. My music is available for that. If you can afford, maybe some could afford a little more, so it helps.
We're beginning a new company called Audience One Music, and you just spell it out, www .audienceonemusic .org, and they can leave us an email message there requesting the music also. By the way, that was my favorite Keith Green song.
I do that in concert, not every night, but many of the nights. Really? And I appreciate that song. I heard that song when Keith was in Washington, D .C., people, 350 people, and he came on out for about an hour and then sang that song to teach out of God's Word for a season.
Scott Wesley Brown, one of the earlier artists, has been listening to this. Temporary music that's ever been. I don't mind telling you some tears were shed. Dear man, accident of that plane crash on his property 20 years ago this July.
But here, a powerful prophetic, as you said, you can't help but listen to that song and be convicted. Are we the light? Are we just, as the governor said, showing up to church? That's us. Are we what Matthew Mead says is are there many that think they're saved, but in reality they're simply the almost Christian?
They have all the outward extremities, and they've been elected even deacons and elderships of Christ. They've never met the Savior. And quick, even to my own heart, the message of no compromise, the hallmark message really marked our brother's ministry.
Now, Steve, I bet you could guess. If I were to ask you, knowing recent requests I've made of you, you could probably guess probably my two favorite Steve Camp songs.
Well, I would say one would be Living in Laodicea, and it might be either Cornerstone or Pounding on Wittenberg's Door.
Cornerstone would be the other. Now, you know that. Now, what do you think? Now, this isn't fair because we've never discussed it. Yes. But what do you think my favorite Keith Green song would be?
Boy, that is a great question.
There's no way. I suppose I think once I play the first few bars of it here, you'll go, well, of course, especially given what I've done for a number of years going up to Utah and things like that. But just real quickly, then we'll go to our phone calls.
Here's How Can They Live Without Jesus?
I will never, ever forget my very young wife and I, just a couple of months had been married, went up to Utah to pass out tracks outside the temples up there. And I remember driving through these highways in Utah, singing nothing but Keith Green songs.
And that one was one that went through my mind over and over and over again, How Can They Live Without Jesus? Powerful. Just tremendous stuff. Well, now, here's going to be one of our biggest challenges.
You're on a cell phone in Minneapolis, and now we're going to try to bring up callers and let them talk to you. Now, this has worked well at times in the past, and at times it has not.
Well, I'll be delighted to speak to whoever calls in.
Our first caller is actually a very good friend of mine, a student of mine, a very good student of mine, who hails from across the pond, as they say, in England. And Colin Smith has called in. I had the opportunity of ministering at Colin's church back in December, actually, just a couple of months after we were together in Nashville.
So if you can't hear him, you make sure to let us know, and we'll do whatever we can. But let's see if we can get our callers and Steve Camp together. Okay, let's try it. Rich, Colin, are you there? I'm here.
All right. Colin, Steve, can you hear Colin at all?
I can just barely, but I can hear him. Colin, good day to you. Well, hello. It's good to speak to you, Steve.
Okay. And you too, James. Well, good to hear from you again, Colin. What would you like to ask Steve today? Make sure to speak up nice and loud.
Okay. Well, I kind of had a comment, really, and I think Steve has really touched on it. But one of the things that really challenged me with Keith Green's music when I was a student, his music obviously impacted me a great deal.
But really then following up from that reading, I actually kind of dug behind the music and got an insight into who Keith Green was, what made him tick, and his real passion and desire for the things of God.
And really I kind of look at that and look at the way that that came through in his music, and there was just this passion, this desire for the things of the Lord in his music and the teaching that came from that.
And that kind of introduced me to the whole era of the early CCM movement and into the music of early Phil Keggy and 2nd Chapter of Acts and people like this. And I look at that, and I look at what there is today, and there's a gulf of difference.
There was kind of like almost a naivety in the 70s of CCM, but in the naivety of the music there was a very genuine style, a very genuine feeling, and a very genuine heart for ministry that I feel is often absent in modern CCM.
And I wonder if Steve wanted to...
In other words, there wasn't any, you are my soul tattoo in early CCM.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, yeah, and what I classically, it's a great question, Colin, what I classically call a lot of today's Christian music is God is my girlfriend songs. Yeah. You don't sense that there is a... These days is that they have... approaches him with reverence and... even when you have elements of blessing, which is no laughing matter, coming around and you have a group... rather than a high view of God that demands our reverence and respect of him.
Those early days, the best thing, the way I guess I could answer that, those early days, you know, Christian music, at least the contemporary arm of it, born out of the peace, pollution, revolution crowd of the late 60s.
Artists like Larry Norman were really paving the way, and they were a unique blend of artists. We had a movement through the U .S. come, a lot of people familiar with it, called the Jesus Movement, that started in the late 60s and culminated in the early or mid -1970s.
And I remember being down at X-Blow 72 as a junior in high school. Bill Bright with Campus Crusade put this on. There was 130 ,000 people, I think. A lot of different artists like Barry McGuire, 2nd Chapter of Acts, Larry Norman, and Danny Lee and the Children of Truth, and Love Song, and on and on it goes, Randy Stonehill.
I remember seeing guys, Larry, on a street corner in Dallas. We were staying at SMU with his guitar, singing some songs, and he was there praying and sharing the Gospel with four people, being used by the Lord to share the good news of the truth of the Gospel.
Then I went out to a hillside, and there must have been 3 ,000 people there, and 2nd Chapter was singing Easter songs and some of these songs and sharing the Gospel. The difference was there was an urgency that marked society and marked the church.
Even Elton John, in some of his earlier music, was a tiny dancer. Jesus freaks out on the streets handing tickets out for God. The Doobie Brothers, Jesus is just all right with me, and certainly these songs don't represent the character of our Lord, nor do we want to call them Christian.
But there were commentaries at the time relating to the movement that they saw. They saw all these people, now called Jesus freaks, which in D .C. talk, notwithstanding, I can't stand the term. There's nothing freakish about loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, no matter what dictionary they quote from.
But it's interesting that there was an insatiable, passionate desire that people that were coming out of the Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix era, now looking for solidity, looking for foundation, and wanting a great message to proclaim, had taken their social concern agendas and their passion against war and their passion for free love and their passion against nuclear weapons and all the other things, were one for the Gospel.
And all of that urgency and all that passion was now directed to eternal things in the precious Gospel of grace. And so that came through in the music. I remember seeing a second chapter of Acts, you mentioned them, traveling in an old broken-down bus.
And they would sing in front of 200 people at a soup kitchen line at a downtown mission just as soon as they would to 3 ,000 people at a packed auditorium or 30 ,000 people at a Christian music festival.
It made no difference to them. There was a selflessness that was not chart-driven, sales-driven, market-driven, consumer-driven. It was heaven-driven. It was a biblical mandate. We are here to communicate the truth of the Gospel of Christ.
And this urgency permeated those early musicians' lives, and the times demanded it. I really think that in a postmodern, moral pluralistic society that we live in, it's hard to find that urgency. But what a day and an hour to see that recovered through musicians that will speak unashamedly and boldly into the postmodern culture to the things of the Lord.
Thank you very much, Colin, for your call today. And I tell you, I just love sitting back and listening to all this. Steve, let me ask you a question. Did Keith Wright pledge my head? Pledge my head to heaven?
Yes, he did. Okay. Now you have, in fact, I'm going to give you another break here, and we're going to get a chance to actually listen to you sing that song. But before I play it, what prompted you to record that?
Well, on the album, Abandoned to God, which in a lot of ways was written for pastors and churchmen, I was wanting a song that was really that individual commitment. Martin Luther, in his great hymn of Mighty Fortresses, Our God, has a little phrase that R .C. Sproul, it was a trill, and all it said was, Dear Steve, let goods and kindred go, love R .C.
And that's what this song is. At a concert one time where he said, It's one thing when you say, I'm going to follow the Lord. Lord, take my life and just whatever you want to do with it, do with it. But it's another thing when you have laid all on the altar for the sake of Christ.
And this was a song about pledging that which is most dear to us, our families, our lives, the calling on our lives, to say, Lord, take it all. We are not our own. We are here to honor and glorify you.
We are at your disposal. Let's listen to Steve Camp.
I'd surely rather be found dead Love more than the one who saved us all. Your child and your family forever. I'm your child. The cost of fame's law. Pledge my children to heaven For the gospel. Persecuted, ridiculed and scorned Teach them to rejoice What they've been raised for thankful And to serve him who bore the nails and crown of thorns.
Your child and your family forever. The cost of fame's law. I gained this head knowing Jesus Has my King. Pledge my wife, all my children. Pledge my head to heaven. Pledge my wife, all my children. I pledge my head to heaven.
I pledge my wife, all my children. Pledge my head to heaven For the gospel.
My good friend and our special guest today on The Dividing Line, Steve Camp, with a Keith Green song, Pledge My Head to Heaven for the Gospel, a beautiful song, and it is from the album that we were mentioning just a few moments ago.
I think it is truly a classic album entitled Abandoned to God. The songs on it are challenging. They are beautiful. They are wonderfully performed. One of my greatest things I like to brag about for myself is I got to sing back up to Steve Camp just once at a church in Florida.
I'll tell you, that's as big as it's going to get for me, Steve. That's just all there is to it.
Well, listen, my honor was to partner with you. I mean, you have written, James, some wonderful books as of late, but probably the greatest work on the doctrine of justification by faith alone, along with Buchanan's work in the 1960s, but certainly in the last few hundred years, the greatest work on this precious gospel.
And I just want to say for those listening, if you don't have this book, you need to get it. It is essential. In fact, if you want to give a gift, I don't care if it's July or June or December, you celebrate Christmas early for your pastor and you give him this book on the doctrine of justification.
Preach the word and clearly the gospel of grace and no other. And that's really kind of a theme here today, isn't it, in a way that Keith and his music was really about the true gospel for the Lord. He's after true worshipers, and Keith's music encouraged us to worship in spirit with the right motives as we come to the Lord and the message of God's word.
Well, we really appreciate your joining with us today, Steve, because I tell you, I could have played lots of Keith Green music, but having you with us today has just made this. I know the people in the chat channel, I know you can't see them right now, but they are truly enjoying this program.
I think it's going to be one of the most popular programs we've ever done. And we have folks waiting to talk to you. In fact, we have David over in Austin, Texas that would like to speak with you. David, are you there?
I'm here. Hi, David, how are you?
Speak up real loud. Okay, can you hear me? Yes, just barely, but good to talk with you. Good to talk to you too, Steve. I've got to tell you, the first four Christian albums that I owned were Keith Green's No Compromise, your album, Phyro, because at the time they were producing the most solid music around.
About four years doing the music. I think Colin mentioned earlier, and you mentioned about the Jesus is my girlfriend type of music. I'm the type of person, I love music. I can't express music, however, without annoying somebody.
I'm not a musical person, but I love music. And it would just really discourage me to see all of that. But a question I have is, do you see anything positive happening today in Christian music? I know there are some groups coming up like Caveman's Call.
I know you're still around, Michael Karch. Do you see anything positive happening that you may be encouraging for us? Oh, sure, and I thank you for your kind words. No question, this is not a bathwater call when we speak of Reformation.
What we're saying is, even though there are individuals doing wonderful work, said that they clearly shared the Gospel. That's an encouragement. Wow. And we need to honor and encourage those that are doing this to keep on.
These guys are just tremendous, and they love the Lord. Steve Green would be another one. You mentioned Michael Karch writing music, and I think that's all positive. One of the things that I think that we can thank the Lord for is the influx of worship music.
Exciting things being done with contemporary music and praise and worship. Unfortunately, with a wide group of people, out of a true heartfelt response of worship to the Lord and study of His Word, then others simply want to imitate.
What we're seeing today is some good worship music being done, and at the same time those that are simply wanting to capitalize on this. I think the Times recently said the full sales going on is the series of faith-based music that they have with Christian artists.
And so what you find is when a segment of the church is writing music that honors the Lord, now the world wants to capitalize on that. And we have to say with Paul in Colossians 2 .17 that we are not like many who kapalos the word of truth, who make it like cheap merchandise and for retail consumption for the sake of sordid gain or for money.
The system is aberrant. The system is away from the Lord, even though there are individuals within it that some of which we just mentioned are doing wonderful work. A new artist, Sean Groves, I recommend his music to your listeners.
And there are others, but this is a concern. And so it's always a double-edged sword. While we see some newer artists like this coming on and some people maintaining sound biblical doctrine in music, we find for the most part that there is a concern.
Just like in the contemporary worship and praise, while we thank the Lord for songs like Shout to the Lord and others like this, there is a growing concern too that now worship music has performance, where people today will pay a ticket to see artists perform worship music.
That's just insane. And so we have to be careful. Where there is the good, there is always going to be those profiteers and others that will try to counterfeit. And again, because there are false preachers, we don't want to throw out all preaching.
Because there are people writing books that don't honor the Lord, we don't want to discredit sound authors like James White. And because there are singers that are not using that medium well to the honor and glory of the Lord, we don't want to say, well, it's all bad, and label it to a contemporary style of music.
There are some hymns that you should not be singing. And at the same time, the Lord must be in accordance with his holy word. And as a sidebar here to your question, people ask all the time, Steve, how can we guard ourselves?
What do we do as parents? I'm hearing a lot of other kinds of music that I don't fully understand. What can we do? Can I just encourage you this afternoon, regardless of the style, even though I don't think music is amoral in its style, regardless though first and foremost of the style, can I encourage you to be a Berean believer?
I know something that this radio program stands for. Examine everything, as Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5. Test everything and cling to that which is good. Can I encourage you as moms and dads and as teenagers listening, hopefully we have some younger ones listening today, man, just don't be the casual listener where everything is so open in your mind that you're allowing anything to flood it and to persuade it and to infiltrate it.
Guard your mind. Guard your hearts. And do this by examining any artist as their music, content-wise, will stack up with Scripture. Does it pass test when compared to the eternal plumb line of God's holy word?
If it does, then go to other areas. See them in concert. See how they are when they're talking with people. Evaluate their character. But Paul told Timothy, watch your life and doctrine closely. Godliness and sound theology are two powerful weapons in terms of a witness.
And even though you can be falsely accused, as Paul was, of a myriad of things, godliness will ultimately win out and the truth of God's will will ultimately triumph, regardless of who tries to pervert it.
And so I would encourage people in music to really guard your hearts and minds. Music is a powerful tool. Keith understood this, that if you have a well-crafted song, man, four or five listens to that song, it's in your heart and mind for years to come.
You don't even have to think about memorizing it. And though I love James and his books, I've never memorized his books. And you wouldn't want to hear me singing them either. I wouldn't want to hear that.
I wish I had that capacity mentally to memorize. But, you know, if we can take the truth of those books, the truth of Scripture, put them into a song, they'll stay with people. And I believe it's not a coincidence that in God's holy word that the greatest chapter, the longest chapter in all the Bible on the authority of God's word, Psalm 119, is a song.
The greatest chapter or set of verses on the authority of Scripture in Psalm 19, 7 and 9, is a song. And so we have the Psalms instructing us on the character and sufficiency of our God, the hymns, the paradosis, the language of tradition, the spiritual songs, if we can apply it this way, the new songs of another generation speaking in their genre the things of the Lord, it all must agree with God's holy word.
And that's really the absent missing piece today in Christian music. Itinerant ministries are great. And we thank the Lord for individuals that are going out into the marketplace, as Keith did, and they deserve our prayers and support and so forth if they're honoring the Lord.
But at the same time, we must understand that the Lord came to establish His church, not only worldwide universal to be sure, but the local church. And what we find today in Christian music is not music that sometimes cannot pass the test of Scripture, but artists that are not accountable to their local church.
That's a very important missing element today that also ensures us, how can you pray for Christian music and more importantly Christian musicians today? Pray that we become students of God's word, articulating the great themes of faith that we're not just students of the culture, but more importantly, having an eternal biblical worldview as to response to the culture, that we're doing it to the glory of God in accordance with His word under the accountability.
Very plainly listen to music without Jesus. You know, don't buy Amy. Can I just be that honest with you? You know, buy Phil Collins, buy Bruce Springsteen, buy Stevie Wonder. It's going to be better music.
But if you're after music by a Christian that wants to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ, buy the artists that are singing unashamedly for that. Because let's be honest, anybody can sing for CBS, but not many are given the privilege to represent the Lord.
Keith's music is a wonderful place to start. If you've never invested in a collection of Christian songs, his ministry CDs or some of the Acts of Egypt or some of the Songs for the Shepherd, I would encourage you to make a whole family, and they'll encourage you in your daily walk with the Lord.
They most certainly will.
Thank you very much, David. Let me just mention, Steve, before we go any farther, because I tend to forget things. You know how old I'm getting and how bald I am. They seem to go together. But good old Simon is here, and Simon wants to say hello to you and also to say that his favorite song is There Is No Other Name.
So you'll have to keep that one in mind the next time we all end up maybe on a boat together or something along those lines. So, hey, we do have Brian on the line now. Brian would like to ask a question.
Make sure to speak up, Brian. Take a nice big deep breath and say hello to Steve Camp. Steve. Hey, Brian. Hey, how's it going?
Well, doing well. Good to be with you. What a blessing that your music is to me personally. I went to California for the first time to see John MacArthur at his church, and James was aside, and I was driving, and we were playing your music, and wow.
I mean, just an encouragement for me. Well, thanks for that encouragement. Yep, and the last time we listened to your music was lifting weights.
You know, I think that's fairly appropriate, Steve, given the fact that I have been out there lifting weights with the guys when you've called with a PowerPoint presentation question. So I sort of figure it's good we're listening to Steve Camp while we're lifting weights.
Now, Steve, you did lift weights with me once, remember? You did go over and pick up those five-pound dumbbells and did some curls, remember?
But you helped me with them, so that was good. No, you know what? I used to be an athlete in high school. I played basketball for three years, and I was in really good shape, and I tell people these days, no matter how much fuel is in the DC -10, it's not going to get off the ground.
I used to be able to dunk the basketball and touch the rim, and I can barely get to the net these days. And even though I'll buy a pair of Air Jordan sneakers or Allen Iverson shoes, you know what? I could do well with lead weights.
It's just not there anymore. My kids will laugh at me. I have five kids, and they're all athletes. Max has just turned 13, and he says, Dad, he's really growing quick right now. And he says, Dad, do I have a six-pack?
And I said, yeah, you do, son. You're really in great shape. He goes, Dad, what do you have? I said, I have a one-pack. So anyway, such is life.
Well, that's the way it works out. Brian, did you have a question or was it just a comment?
Yeah, I just wanted to say, again, thank you for the blessing you are, Steve, to me. And I just wanted to say that one of the songs I like is The Mark of the Man of God. Well, that's one of them, and I'm not going to go on to more.
James, I missed his comment. Well, he was saying that one of his favorite songs is Mark of the Man of God.
Oh, Brian, well, thank you. I wrote that song for Dr. 30th. I was struggling on what to get him. Obviously, I couldn't get him a commentary. And I couldn't get him a Bible. So I was wondering about a gift to get John.
And this song came together just two days or three days before his celebration on that Sunday in February. So many people came up after that Sunday evening and said, you know, that's a song about my dad.
Or that's a song about my uncle or granddad or my brother or my friends. And some were saying, I know it's called Mark. It impacted my life. So it wasn't intended to be on the Abandoned to God album. But through God's providence, the Lord worked that out.
And thanks for that encouragement, because that song has special meaning to myself as well.
Let's give Steve a chance to catch his breath with a few bars of that song, Mark of the Man of God from Abandoned to God.
Such a rarity today. Many stars, strong and true, quickly fall away. The man will take his stand. He can't be bought or sold. And to the plow he won't look back, though other hearts turn cold. He keeps the faith, keeps his conscience clear.
He lives this life of grace through all his years. The Mark of the Man of God. Worship of the Lord's sin as a living sacrifice.
That, of course, the Mark of the Man of God. Steve Camp, our special guest today, reminiscing, remembering Keith Green and his ministry and the impact that he has had on many of us. And, of course, the impact that Steve Camp's ministry has had as well.
Beautiful song. I'm trying to keep a bunch of things going here. We've got the phone lines are just absolutely exploding. It always works the last few minutes. And so I'm doing the music and I'm doing the levels on the music and also keeping an eye on the notes that are being sent to me electronically.
Someday when you're out here sometime, Steve, you'll have to see how we do this. You'll just laugh hysterically, actually, that we managed to get through it all without making numerous errors. But anyways, I want to at least get to Peter calling from Monterey, California.
Hi, Peter. Peter, speak up real loud.
Hey, I'm here. How are you guys doing? Oh, man, I can hear you clear as a bell. Hey, that's great.
Steve, I don't know if you remember me from Adam or not, but I was 91. I do remember, yes. You were very kind to my daughter and myself. You gave us some... Well, thank you. I do remember you. Nice to talk with you.
Yeah, it's good to hear you, too. Just to thank you for bringing back and bringing up again so many memories from the 70s and the 80s and expect what is in music to read, something like that. And I wanted to thank you and your work so much.
And then on your stuff, the true gospel and the true form of baptism. Right. Boy, what a blessing. What a blessing to come along the line.
Well, Peter, I really appreciate your kind words. Just pray for me as I'm writing the book with Dave Hunt right now, the point-counterpoint work on that subject. Just pray that that's going to be a challenge.
And just pray that I will do it right, shall we say.
You know, I just wanted to throw in one more comment. I was in the book, and I was just thumbing through it. I didn't buy it because it was so short. Not so much whether as much as it is representing what...
I was even more concerned about it when I read... Dave Hunt's book. Dave Hunt's book.
Yeah. That's very, very true. And I don't know if you've had a chance to hear it, Steve. We just now started offering via MP3 off of our website. You can download the MP3s of my debate with George Bryson, who wrote the five points of Calvinism, Wade and found wanting.
We did a debate at the Anaheim Vineyard at the beginning of April. Oh, my, I haven't heard that yet. Yeah, we'll have to. We're just now getting the videotapes ready, and we'll have to get that over to you because I think you'd find it to be very, very interesting.
But, Peter, thank you so much. Yeah, Peter, I appreciate his comments, James, because so much of current Christianity is based on numbers, church growth, rather than we forget that God doesn't number us.
He weighs us and examines our lives. And certainly men like Thomas Watson, who had a church of under 100, what a contribution this dear man has made throughout the years. And Jonathan Edwards and just a church of a few hundred, not many by today's standards, but, again, powerful.
And that's what we have to remember even in Christianity. One of Keith's mentors was Leonard Ravenhill, called Why Revival, and a side of things. But entertainment in the local house and people in a very short period of time and when interviewed, I believe it was even Katie Carrick, possibly, that interviewed the pastor there, a young pastor.
It's a seeker-friendly church, and they said that their growth was attributed to primarily one thing, and that was the exclusive use of secular music in the worship of God. Now, you know, I love the Beatles, but singing I Want to Hold Your Hand as a praise song is a bit of a stretch.
Just a bit. And it's a sad thing when churches are designing the theme and the focus to appeal to unsaved people to simply attract them on a felt-need basis, rather than asking the one question in church of, what is it that we can further do this week to bring glory to a holy God?
And the same thing in Christian music. Keith, in particular, was not concerned about being liked or being marketable or appealing to a market-driven strategy. He was concerned in what I do for him. Is it going to be wood, hay, and stubble burned up, or will it be gone?
Well, Steve, I had to let you know my wife came in channel and wanted you to know that he covers me as her favorite song. And next Tuesday is Kelly and I's 20th wedding anniversary. Oh, congratulations.
Wow. And I thought you mentioned Scott Wesley Brown, and I just had to tell you I am one of the few people that you will ever meet that was brave enough to sing to his wife at his wedding, and I sang Flesh of My Flesh.
Oh, my goodness. So someday I'll have to show you the video. I've got hair like you would not believe, and could actually carry a tune in a bucket. But just a few... My wife said, no, no, you won't. Just a few months...
Well, actually, the month after we were married, I was working at KWAO Radio, and around 10 o 'clock at night, the UPI machine went ding, ding, ding, ding. And I am reading from the actual UPI printout that I taped inside a Bible that night, and this is what it said.
Officials now say only 11 people were killed late Wednesday when a small plane taking off from a Christian evangelical group's private airstrip near Van, Texas, crashed just 500 yards from the end of the runway.
Early reports had said 12 people died in the crash. A staff member at last day's ministry says the plane burned upon impact in a densely wooded area. The crash occurred about 20 miles northwest of Tyler.
Authorities say among those killed was ministry director Keith Green, who also wrote and recorded Christian music. Jim McNichols, a Dundee, Illinois radio personality, calls Green one of the top Christian contemporary artists in the country.
That's how I heard about the death of Keith Green, was within a few hours, because I was actually on the air at that time, and I have kept that. And I really appreciate your joining with us this afternoon to give us your recollections of Keith.
And we've talked about all sorts of things, and I would really like to... I hope that your cell phone battery doesn't explode when I say this, but I'd really like to get you to come back where we can just talk about the entirety of Christian music and your ministry and focus a little bit more upon what you've done.
But I really want to thank you for joining with us and making this just a tremendous program.
James, thank you, and really an honor to be invited. And thank you that you were able to flex here with the airlines, and I really want to thank Northwest, because my favorite airline, American, could not get me up here, but Northwest came through, and we may not be able to do this interview at all or just be on for a few moments.
And I thank the Lord for this opportunity. And for all the callers and the folks that I haven't read comments through on the chat lines, keep on for the Lord, and that will turn our world upside down for the cross of Christ.
Amen. Well, I think you'd find this appropriate.
He sang this while he was alive, but after July 28, 1982, Keith Green was able to sing this in a way that you and I can only look forward to sometime in the future. I think it would be appropriate for us to finish our tribute to the life of Keith Green with a beautiful rendition of a song that I truly think is worthy of being sung around the throne.
The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.
If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -0318 or write us at P .O. Box 37106, Phoenix, Arizona, 85069. You can also find us on the World Wide Web at aomin .org. That's A-O-M-I-N .org, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.
Join us again next Saturday afternoon at 2 p .m. for The Dividing Line.