November 8, 2016 Show with Jim Newheiser on “Help! I Need a Church!”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet

Earth listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this eighth day of November, Election Day 2016, and I'm delighted to have on the program for the very first time ever

Jim Neuheiser. He's director of the Christian Counseling Program at Reform Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina, executive director of IBCD, which stands for the

Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship, and he is a fellow and board member of ACBC, the

Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. Today we're going to be discussing his book, Help!

I Need a Church, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time,

Jim Neuheiser. Thank you. I think I just mispronounced your name, Neuheiser, right?

That's pretty good, I'll take almost anything. And also for the first time co -hosting my program today.

Providentially I found out that a member of the church where I'm a member, Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, a fellow member there,

Laszlo Pastor, I just found out this morning he happens to be a personal friend of Jim Neuheiser, and I've always wanted to have

Laszlo co -host with me. He's been actively involved in the military for a great portion of his life, and is now retired from the military.

He was also working at the United States Army War College here in Carlisle, and it's great to have you in the studio for the first time,

Laszlo Pastor. Well thank you, Chris, it's a real blessing to be with this program. And what exactly were your duties with the

War College before you retired from there? Initially when I first went to the War College I was a headquarters company commandant, and then my last assignment was in peacekeeping and stability operations.

I got back from Iraq and we were looking at what they call phase four operations, which is what happens after the kinetic or the combat ends and you try to rebuild a country.

And which branch of the service were you in? Army. And how do you know our guest

Jim Neuheiser? Well it's a small world. Jim was the pastor of my wife's family, and Jim was here in a conference and my wife's family contacted us and said, could you put up Jim?

We said we'd be delighted. So Jim and I had a bond of friendship. We have mutual interest in the

Civil War, and we visited with him. We've sat under his preaching when we visited, and we've just kept up our friendship through that.

Great. And Jim, you are director, as I already announced, of the

Christian Counseling Program at RTS, also known as Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte, North Carolina.

I've interviewed members of the faculty there and the other branches of RTS as well, including

Dr. Michael Kruger and others. But tell our listeners who may be discovering RTS for the first time during today's show, tell our listeners something about RTS and exactly what you do there.

Yeah, Reformed Theological Seminary actually is celebrating their 50th anniversary. It is an independent seminary, but it's very much

Reformed in the Presbyterian and Reformed tradition, a lot of PCA, ARP, and OPC men, both on faculty and among the students.

I am, so far as I know, the lone Baptist, Reformed Baptist, on faculty, but I've been treated very well, and not as a second class, but a first -class co -citizen in the kingdom of heaven.

We have multiple campuses. It originally started in Jackson 50 years ago, but there are campuses now in Charlotte, Orlando, developing in Atlanta, Washington DC, New York, Houston, now just announced in Dallas.

So it's one seminary with multiple campuses. I've been brought here for a new program in biblical counseling, which is actually among the

Reformed RTS system unique to this campus. It's along the lines of biblical counseling like Christian Counseling and Education Foundation in Pennsylvania, ACBC, Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, so relying upon the sufficiency of Scripture to help people with their spiritual needs and issues.

This program has only been in existence for two years. I was brought in, actually moved here this summer to be the director of the program, teaching and organizing the curriculum, and trying to get used to being in Charlotte after being in San Diego for almost 30 years.

I'm not even sure you're aware of this, but Dr. Michael Kruger, before he became a

Presbyterian, was actually a pastoral intern at Grace Baptist Church, where I'm now a member. Actually, I was aware of it because during that summer, that was while he was at our church in Escondido, where I was pastor.

He was actually our intern while he was at Westminster, California, and actually lived in the church building, which is kind of funny paths crossing again now, and probably that previous connection is why he recruited me to come here and do this job.

And tell us now about the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors. Yeah, the biblical counseling movement really was born late 60s, early 70s.

Jay Adams writing Competent to Counsel, kind of challenging the appropriateness of integrating secular psychology with the

Bible, and proclaiming the Bible has the answers for people's spiritual problems. Originally, there were, in the 70s, two organizations set up.

One was Christian Counseling and Education Foundation, which was primarily a training organization, and then a group called

NANC, the National Association of Epithetic Counselors, was started as a certifying organization that would be in parallel with other organizations, but it would be setting standards for training and supervising people as they learn to counsel.

So ACBC became the new name of NANC a few years ago when Heath Lambert took over as the director of what is now

ACBC, and now there are over a thousand certified biblical counselors in several different countries, and there are many counseling centers that are

ACBC affiliated to give people the training, and ACBC has a certification process, the most important of which is to be mentored by an experienced counselor they call fellow, where they actually do 50 hours of counseling with close interaction with the experienced counselor who makes sure and certifies that they've met all the requirements.

So part of that, they had to pass tests and do training and do some observation. Now would you say that one of the things that makes biblical counseling stand apart from other

Christian counselors is that many who identify themselves as Christian counselors either consciously or unconsciously import a lot of secular psychology into what they're doing and perhaps even to a dangerous level?

Would that be a fair assessment? That is exactly the concern.

I think there are many Christian counselors that I would acknowledge are brothers and sisters in Christ, and I think they sincerely want to help people, but our perspective would be the best way you can learn to help people is to master the contents of Scripture and learn how to carefully, lovingly, and wisely bring that application to people, and that there's not some wonderful content outside of Scripture that people are in need of.

Well I want to give our listeners our email address if you'd like to join us on the air. Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. I do understand that whenever we have a counselor on especially, there may be people who are asking questions that would cause them to prefer not to identify even their first name, city, and state, or country, so they'd rather remain anonymous, and I understand that, and I will grant your wish to remain anonymous if that is the case.

But if it's not about something personal, private, intimate, I'd ask of you to just at least please give us your first name, city, state, and country when you email.

And well first of all, I need a church. I think that would be a very healthy and refreshing utterance to hear someone say those words, because there are a lot of Christians wandering around who say the exact opposite thing.

Even though they claim to be born again and disciples of Christ, they will say, I don't need a church.

But what led you to write this booklet, I Need a Church? I love that question, thanks.

The book actually, the counseling in that we had, or we still have,

IBCD as a church -based counseling center for the community in Southern California near San Diego, and we found that so many people were coming to us who really did not have a vital connection with a biblical local church, and we found that our ability to help people was limited and sometimes non -existent because of that lack.

And so it's kind of like the time you wish you had a life jacket is when the boat tips over, and people coming for counseling sense a great deal of need.

They need intervention with a problem with an unfaithful spouse, or they're in financial trouble, there's just some huge issue going on in their lives where they need counsel, support, and help.

And people who are not connected at all to a church, which is not uncommon, or people who kind of go to a church that doesn't really shepherd sheep and care for people, and they chose the church perhaps for less than biblical reasons, find that they are sheep without a shepherd.

And so really the book was written as I kept, I spend so much time sometimes counseling these people that I can't keep working with you until you start looking for a church which will long -term care for you, you'll be a part of that church in a biblical way.

And so it got down to what are people, why do people need to find a church, what are some unbiblical reasons people sometimes major in when choosing a church, and then finally what are biblical criteria for choosing a church.

So it really was in my heart for over 20 years to be able to have something brief to give to people, to convince them why it's biblical to be a member of a church and what they should be looking for in terms of church.

Jim, why do you think people today, Christians, are often or sometimes reluctant to join together in the body of Christ?

What is at the root of this estrangement, if you will? That's a great question,

Laszlo, and there are probably several reasons. One would be it's because people have not been taught the importance of the church biblically.

So that's the church is doing, isn't it? Well, church evangelism missions where there's been a lot of one -on -one evangelism, and I'm thankful when people are converted to one -on -one evangelism, but in the

Bible they were always added to a church like in Acts 2. I think sometimes there's been an emphasis upon creating converts without using the church to make disciples.

I think there's also a general anti -authority, anti -establishment mentality in culture, and so even many churches have kind of specialized in being the unchurch where we don't have membership and we're not like that church you grew up in that you hate.

You can come and go as you please, and there's a certain attractiveness to that to some people.

Those would be a couple of reasons. I'm sure we could go further and develop more reasons. Well, I think that the observations you make indicate that in some sense the culture has permeated the church more than the church has permeated the culture, hasn't it?

Yeah, I think that's a great way to summarize it is that the church is supposed to be not conformed to the world or something distinct and remarkable in and not of the world, but as churches have sought to, in some cases, survive or thrive numerically or financially, they have found more acceptance from a large part of the population when they lower their expectations way below what the

Bible says. So I guess another conclusion would be that part of the problem that individuals separate themselves is due to the shortfall of the church.

Right, I mean it depends on the churches. There are many many faithful churches. I mean one why I wrote the book is

I didn't write the book so people would come to our church. You don't want all your counselees coming to your church.

You'd have a disproportionate amount of trouble perhaps, but they're like in San Diego there would be many churches that I think are fundamentally sound gospel preaching churches that care for the sheep and do the things we talk about in the booklet.

So I wanted to... there are many wonderful churches, but just as Paul said a day would come when people would want their ears tickled and there would not be sound preaching of sound doctrines, that's still true today that there will be many churches which will cater to what people want to hear and it goes beyond not having membership or not having biblical church structures.

It's going to be the content of a message which is watered down or even the gospel may be non -existent.

I think there are other churches where they're well -meaning in the sense that they are really trying to preach the

Bible. They are teaching the basics of justification by faith alone and trying to say sound things, but they're afraid to explicitly ask for commitment from people because they're afraid they'll lose them and so they make it kind of commitment,

L -I -T -E. We have a first -time questioner,

I don't know if he's a first -time listener, but we have a first -time questioner in Lancaster, Pennsylvania named

Penn, and Penn asks, how can Christians go about organizing regular meetings with an individual that may need biblical guidance?

I guess I'm not a hundred percent certain what he means by the question, but I'm assuming he means outside of the context of a local church, perhaps as a initial step before bringing that person into a church who might not even be a

Christian and he just has some friends that are Christian. I'm assuming that's what

Penn needs and he can follow up with a clarification email if he wants, but if you could take what he has written and respond the best you can.

How can how can Christians go about organizing regular meetings with an individual that may need biblical guidance?

Okay, well I would first point a person to whatever church they may be a part of.

So I got our counseling center, when people would call for counsel, we would first ask them, are you a part of a church?

Have you looked at them for help? I wouldn't discount the fact that the person who may need help may be in a church and should call upon that church to do what the

Bible says the church is supposed to do. Now if you as a Christian see a person who is not in church who needs help,

Romans 15, 14, Paul says that, concerning you I'm convinced you're full of goodness, full of knowledge, able to admonish one another, that all of us as believers are in a sense counselors, in the sense that we can read the

Scriptures with people, pray with people, point them to Christ, and then if you think it's beyond you in terms of trying to help this person, you could get help from your local church, which

I trust you are a member of, and then we would do this with a non -churched person would be, an agenda point would be,

I need to help you get into a good church. Doesn't have to be my church, but part of God's method for helping troubled people, the church is the hospital, it's the recovery program, it's the work training and vocational efforts, and so a major objective in any counseling situation is to integrate the person who has need into the life of the church, first perhaps to get the help and the care in the church, but ultimately to be a functioning member of a church where they can be a blessing to others.

Now obviously the added complicated factor to this though is that a person could be in a heretical church, they could be in a very liberal apostate church, they could be in a

Roman Catholic church, they could be in a cult, so obviously to tell them to go back to any church, which unfortunately

I think is the custom of the Billy Graham Association, one of the reasons that I have great difficulty with the

Billy Graham Evangelistic Association is that at their rallies those who are counselors are forbidden to dissuade someone from returning to whatever church they are a member of.

So would you think that it would be at least an appropriate thing to say, I'll tell you what,

I'm gonna take my breakfast break with you or my lunch break with you at the local diner every week and if you don't mind

I'll invite a friend of mine from church who happens to be a deacon, etc., etc., and starting off that way, would that be an appropriate initial step to get somebody to get their feet wet, if you will, before they start regularly attending a church?

I think that's great, it's kind of a door to help someone get into the church, and I agree with you,

I would never send anybody to a church that doesn't preach the gospel. The situations that we sometimes ran into would be a church that formally is an evangelical church where it affirms the basics of the soul of the

Reformation and justification by faith alone, the authority of Scripture, but then that church isn't really functioning the way they should.

Sometimes that can be an opportunity to call the leaders of that church to be what God would have them to be and for us to have an influence on them, but I agree that if someone's going to church that isn't preaching the gospel, and that's one aspect of the book was that the most important thing you're looking for in a church is a church in which the gospel is clear and it's central, and so you would never want to put anybody near that.

The other situation that comes along sometimes is a church where they more or less have the gospel right, they would say they believe in the authority of Scripture, but they're just not willing to do what the

Bible says a church is supposed to do, and even then sometimes I will send them back to their home church to say, well, okay, your husband is having an affair, he's tilting ministry in your church, go to the leaders and challenge them on that in the

Scriptures, and when the leaders say, well, no, we're not going to do anything about that, we're not ready for church discipline yet, sometimes it's in the counselee who comes back and says, you know, maybe

I am in the wrong church. I think the same thing could happen as you help someone understand the basics of the gospel and basics of discipleship where they come to understand they're in the wrong place.

You know, Jim, you've pointed in a couple directions there. If you think about it, if hermeneutically the word counseling is not used per se in the modern sense of the word counseling in Scripture, however, the concept of discipleship is very much alive.

Perhaps, and tell me if it's your observation, some churches are just not prepared to do discipleship slash counseling, and secondly, you mentioned discipline.

Some churches are not prepared to do that, and so they may be prepared to preach and teach, but are they prepared, and should they be prepared, to do the personal contact one -on -one as you suggest?

I think you are right that many churches fall short in terms of discipleship, and biblical words would be shepherd the flock of God, Peter and Paul both declare, and that's part of what sometimes happens in the context of the kind of counseling

I've done, is where somebody realizes our church isn't willing to disciple me, our church is not willing to shepherd us, and then they realize in spite of the fact there's some good things about that church in terms of what's being said in the pulpit, they're not really willing to be some of the important things a church needs to be.

And in terms of counsel, there's a continuum probably in terms of what we think of as counseling and discipleship.

I agree, I think with what you're getting at, I think most counseling, rather than being firefighting where somebody's a crisis, and you talk them to the crisis, what those people really need is long -term discipleship, and their growth in Christ, so they can learn how to be self -feeders and problem solvers, instead of coming along just when they're in the midst of a crisis.

Well, I think that the reasons for some churches and some individuals being reluctant to join churches, and some churches being reluctant to deal with individuals at the core of who they are, is the issue of accountability and commitment across the board in our culture.

Those churches that don't exercise discipline, and we're not promoting harsh discipline, but biblical loving discipline, sometimes are embarrassed to hold anyone accountable.

And many individuals, because of our independent culture, our Lone Ranger attitude, do not want to be accountable nor submit themselves to any authority.

And along with that, concomitantly, is the issue of commitment. The issue of commitment is critical, and it goes across, again, the whole culture, and it impacts the interpersonal relations and the institutional relationships of the church, which

I think is part of the reason people are jumping from church to church, and reluctant to commit to churches.

What's your thought? I agree with everything you just said, Oslo, that there is...

churches often are kind of places where people go to attend a pep rally, and get kind of refueled, and don't see themselves as being a part of a community led by typically qualified elders, in which they have a real commitment to the people there, and much less accountability in terms of discipline.

I think that it's very, very widespread, and that is the big problem.

There are some people who don't even go to church at all. That's a worse problem, but the largest problem is probably churches that aren't really functioning more comprehensively.

They, especially some of the mega... some mega churches really make an effort to shepherd the sheep, but a lot of them, there's the big gathering, and it's crowds, and it's, you know, responses, and finances, and individual discipleship, and caring for souls, and helping people who are in deep trouble, and often they'll pawn that off, either on a secular counselor, or a so -called

Christian counselor who's a psychologist, or sometimes they'll even try to send them to a biblical counselor, but they're not really willing to do the job they've been appointed to do.

Well, it's an interesting observation. It just reminds me of studies George Barna did about Christian worldview, and you have pastors that one, either don't have one, or if they do, they're afraid to act upon them and preach them, and as a result, as we have shallow churches that are not doing the full work of the

Holy Spirit, which is to touch lives... Right, and some of this, again, is how, in terms of our counseling ministry, and how the booklet came into being, is we...

I had people coming who basically understood the gospel, they were believers, but their church wasn't doing...

they weren't shepherding sheep, they weren't doing discipleship, they would come to us, and actually the danger was that we would become kind of substitute pastors, so they'd go to the church and have the music and the sermon, and they'd come to us for pastoral care, and that's not acceptable.

No, it's supposed to be going on in their home churches, isn't it? Right, so we're trying to teach them to turn to their church and call their church to do what the

Bible says, showing them from the Bible, here's what the Bible says the job of your leaders is, and then often people would come to the conclusion, maybe

I'm in the wrong church, I may like the music, and the sermons may sound true, and he's funny, and he's fun to listen to, but again, when

I'm in a crisis and I need a lifeboat or a lifejacket, these people are not there for me with biblical answers, and so how do

I find a place, may not be as flashy, but how do I find a place where my family will be cared for in the way the

Bible says? Well, an obvious question, Jim, that would follow is if your observation is correct, and I think that it is, what is the way to change those churches?

And I think we do know the answers, but I think it needs to be stated. How would you state the needs of the church so that they can be the church where individuals can go for more than the things that you said, which are sometimes shallow, and sometimes where they don't reach at the heart of individual souls and minister to the wounded and the hurting?

What would you have as your prescription for the change that's necessary? I don't have a plan by which

I can grab hold of the preaching pastor of the megachurch and get him to change, but a few things

I would do. One would be, in my smaller church, to be faithful in shepherding sheep and trust the

Lord will send us a bunch. Then, in context of the counseling ministry, that's where I as a counselor and the counselees would appeal to their churches to more comprehensively do what the

Bible says. Something we did at IBCD, we would say, bring a pastor, or you're not going to get the big kahuna to come, but get somebody in leadership to come, and we will teach them how to work this problem with you, and then we'll turn you over to them to continue to care for you.

And sometimes in one of these very large churches, you're not going to get the senior pastor who's famous, but you're going to get a guy on the next level of staff, and if you can get him excited about biblical soul care, using the scriptures to help people, training other people in the church, something that IBCD has done is created training programs where you can get lots of people in the church trained to do the basics of this.

We've seen situations where, from the inside, at least in this area, some churches can be transformed.

All of our churches, even the ones you and I would say are really good churches, could be improved in this area. In terms of my own life, that's what

I've been doing, which in probably the larger scale version is IBCD has a care and discipleship program where we go into churches, we have all kinds of training materials, and if you can get someone, again it's rarely the senior pastor in a giant church, but even someone next level down in a very large church excited about this, it can really change the culture of that church for good.

Well, as we said in the military, it's called training the trainers, and what you've just described, it sounds like to me, is you're equipping the church.

One of your jobs and functions and roles is not only to do personal counseling, but to equip others to do likewise.

Exactly, and actually the way IBCD works, and IBCD actually started 30 years ago, more than 30 years ago, as a

West Branch in San Diego, is we don't do that much counseling.

We would rather do counseling with observers, ideally from the church of the people who are coming in for counseling, to learn to counsel, or seminary students, or other church leaders, but the objective was not to do a bunch of counseling because the demand is absolutely overwhelming, and even as I've come out here to Charlotte, again it's overwhelming, but to train people in the churches to shepherd their own sheep, and then maybe people who are more specialists, kind of like the

Moses model, where you get lots of people who can deal with the ordinary cases, and even in a local church, you get a few people who are highly trained who can deal with the toughest cases.

By the way, before I forget, if you could, say hello to Pastor Nathan Trice in Charlotte, North Carolina, if you ever bump into him.

He is the pastor of the Matthews Orthodox Presbyterian Church right near Charlotte, and he's a dear brother in Christ, so if you ever happen to bump into him, please send my regards.

Chris Ornson from Iron Sharpens Iron. Tell him that I said hello. By the way,

Penn in Lancaster, since you are a first -time questioner, you're not only going to be getting a free copy of Help!

I Need a Church! by Jim Neuheiser, compliments of Shepherd Press, but you're also going to be getting a free

New American Standard Bible as a first -time questioner on top of that, and this is a beautiful addition.

It is not quite small enough to be called a pocket size, but it's small enough to fit in a coat pocket or a briefcase or a woman's purse.

It's a really beautiful Bible with an embossed cross on the cover, and we just need your full mailing address,

Penn, so if you want to email us the full mailing address, we'll have that shipped out to you as soon as possible.

By Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, another one of our sponsors, cvbbs .com.

C -V for Cumberland Valley, B -B -S for Bible Book Service dot com. We have to go to a break right now, and if anybody else would like to join us on the air, we do have several waiting to have their questions asked and answered already, but if you'd like to join them, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, our guest today is Jim Neuheiser and we are discussing his book,

Help! I Need a Church. Co -hosting in the studio with me is Laszlo Pastor, a friend of his.

He's also a fellow member along with me at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

And he is a retired military man who also had some very long -lasting work involving the local

United States Army War College here in Carlisle. And if you'd like to join us on the air regarding our subject,

Help! I Need a Church, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

And we do have a few listeners already waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

We have Joe in Slovenia. Joe says, you and brother

Jim are probably aware that missionaries living and working long -term cross -culturally face significant challenges and struggles that are not addressed adequately by mission -sending agencies.

Please ask brother Jim if Reform Theological Seminary or the Institute for Biblical Counseling provide ongoing counseling for international missionaries living abroad via Skype or other internet -based interaction.

Thanks so much for your quality and edifying programming. So if you could,

Jim. Sure. The capacity both here in Charlotte with RTS and with IBCD is somewhat limited, so I can't say if we got 50 missionaries saying they needed help we would be able to accommodate all of that.

We have done a great deal of work with missionaries and the

Lord has really blessed that work. I actually just returned from a trip to Costa Rica and a big purpose of my trip there was not just to speak but actually to minister to and with some missionary families and future missionaries there.

And I fully agree the great need that missionaries have to be pastored.

My primary answer would be, however, that this gets back to the local church.

I like Spurgeon's quote about mission agencies where he doesn't want to oppose them, he's not against them, but they're irregular and that the ideal is that the local church would do that work.

And so, for example, our church in Escondido in California, as we sent out missionaries, we viewed it our responsibility to care for those people and that included

Skype conversations, phone conversations, visits from elders, pastors, recognizing the unique challenges and needs they have and to be engaged with them and take full responsibility for that rather than entrusting that to an agency that may not do that the way it needs to be done.

So I think one of the important things that could be done would be for sending churches to be made aware of and challenged to care for the people they send more effectively.

And then it could be groups like RTS and IBCD could help churches care for their people more faithfully.

But if someone is out in the field, he should have someone back here holding the ropes and knowing well how these folks are doing to the people who've been sent abroad.

Jim, you mentioned the local church is having the responsibility. What about mission agencies?

Having people on staff who could do exactly what you suggest? I think given that there are mission agencies, that this can be a good thing.

Interestingly, where I came from in Costa Rica is actually at a missionary training school, a language training school, and they have two full -time counselors on staff to work with the approximately 100 missionaries and future missionaries who are in the school, and they stay pretty busy caring for those folks.

And so I think most mission agencies do have some kind of vision for this, but it would depend on the agency.

A lot of the agencies are highly psychologized and don't emphasize perhaps the biblical counseling background we would have, but that would be an agency -by -agency matter.

So I'm sure some are better and more biblical than others. My own opinion would be, if you're going to work with an agency, the local church should still take primary responsibility and not just delegate that to the agency.

Another answer may be, and I've been downrange in a couple different countries and I've worked around missionaries with them, is that very often missionaries just gather together and form informal associations where they just essentially minister to one another.

They may be from different agencies, denominations, but very often there's an affinity. And I think that even there, they can submit to face -to -face counseling, but again, they have to be discriminating as to who they submit to.

Right. I think those kinds of affiliations, like in Costa Rica there's a wonderful gathering of Reformed churches.

I was there on Reformation Weekend and they probably had more than 300 people from 15 churches all over the place.

I know there's a fellowship in there. You've got Reformed Baptists and Reformed Presbyterians and a few others of a little more broader stripe even.

And the missionaries, some of those churches have missionaries in them, and I'm sure they're a great help to one another.

Even then, a goal on the field should be to establish local churches that are so healthy. You have real elders who can help other leaders, whether they're missionaries or not.

Well, that's a goal of every missionary is to establish local churches, isn't it? That is what they did in Acts, and that's what

I think we need to be doing. And part of that would be elders, even if they're younger in the faith than you, to whom you would look as a first line of defense for help.

And then you've got your home church backing you up. There are not local resources that are sufficient. One of the observations

I made is that often missionaries, especially in fresh works, are isolated and alone.

And that truly is tough, because other than their spouses or family members or perhaps people back in the

States via Skype, for a while, and sometimes for a long while, they don't have anybody to turn to.

Right. And I found as we sent people out initially, they needed a lot more attention.

And as it became established and had more of a support work locally, that diminished some.

But that's where either the agency, ideally the local church, should be very conscious of that and not just wait for the mission.

Sometimes by the time you hear from the missionary, the boat's already going down. But to be regularly engaged and caring for these folks, just to recognize that missionaries on the field are going to have more problems than...

Jim, we do have a follow -up question from Joe in Slovenia. He says, Please ask

Brother Jim to give his opinion and insights regarding the counseling approach of Brandt and Skinner in their book,

The Heart of the Problem, that is, if you are familiar with it. I'm really not familiar enough with that book to be able to make a profitable comment.

Okay. Well, Joe in Slovenia, thank you for providing a USA mailing address of your daughter, because we're going to be mailing you out to the

United States address you gave a copy of I Need a Church by Jim Neuheiser.

So thank you very much for that, and your daughter should be getting that shortly. Compliments not only of Shepherd Press, the publishers, but Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, who are going to be shipping that out to her.

Chris, can I make a suggestion? As I listen to you read Joe's email, I've got a burden for him, and as I say,

I've seen other missionaries. Jim, I'm going to ask you to do something, if you would, Brother. Could you just lift up Joe and Paranow and other missionaries who are hurting alone and without counsel, without other brothers in the

Lord to lean upon? Could you just pray for those? And you've seen them just as I've seen them. Sure.

Father in Heaven, we thank you for those who make sacrifices and go to places that are hard, and sometimes with dreams that are unrealized initially for Joe, for others.

Lord, strengthen them in faith. Build them up spiritually, as Paul prayed for the

Ephesians, that they would be strengthened in the inner man to fully grasp the love of Christ.

I pray, Lord, that you would provide those who could shepherd those who have been sent out to do hard work, that those who hold the ropes would not just be concerned for finances, but would care for the needs of these men, women, their children, and that they could be able to have people to talk to.

Thank you for the technology that exists now, and to help churches and agencies to utilize that, and also to catch problems before they become severe, to disciple those who are sent out.

We pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Thanks, Jim. We have Murray in Kinross, Scotland, who wants to know if we should be impressing upon individuals more that their gifts are needed in the church rather than how the church can help them.

I guess in one sense you could paraphrase John F. Kennedy in his famous speech, ask not what your church can do for you, but ask what you can do for your church.

But does Murray have something there? Obviously that can't be always or even the dominant thing that you address people with, because you're going to be meeting unbelievers as well who need eternal life through hearing the preaching of the gospel.

But is there something there that Murray in Kinross, Scotland, has hit the nail on the head there?

1 Peter 4 .10 says, Each one has received a special gift employed in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

And there's so much in the Bible about using our spiritual gifts, about caring for those in need, and so to be a part of the church is to be a part of a community where you bear one another's burdens and thereby fulfill the law of Christ, as Paul says to the

Galatians. I want to make one more application of this to the unchurched. What often happens is someone who has not been committed to a church, not connected to a church, and then they face a crisis.

And their family is falling apart, or the husband's lost his job, or they need help, but they've never been in a church.

They've never been committed. When you join a church, and my view would be in our local churches, there's not going to be somebody homeless as a member of our church.

There's not going to be someone in crisis who can put on a waiting list in our local church. I can't to the counseling center.

I would do nothing but counsel people in crisis if I opened it up to anybody from anywhere.

But in terms of the local church, when you're committed to a local church, the local church is committed to you, and it's a horrible thing for a professing

Christian to be in a time of great crisis, and they're not in a church which is going to care for them in the midst of that crisis.

But part of this is the motivation, is you're in the church. You're giving. You're serving. You love these people. You pray for these people.

And yeah, one of the benefits, one of the effects of that will be that if your turn comes, they're going to be there for you.

But it's kind of presumptuous to say, I don't need the church. I don't need a commitment.

And then when you're in trouble, you want them to be committed to you when you've refused to be committed to them.

Now maybe the Lord can use that, and I've seen the Lord use that where the church shows grace, and someone gets to a point of commitment because the church was there for them when they, in one sense, didn't deserve it.

But yeah, I think that people, they don't understand fully their need for the church, but like you said, we should all be committed in the community.

Well Jim, how about this? Just by the act of commitment in and of itself, isn't there a therapeutic value?

I mean, we are saved unto good works, and we exercise those good works in the body, through the body, to the body.

We're equipped to exercise them to the world in the church, and when we are actively in obedience, does that not in and of itself draw us closer to the

Lord? Does that not bind us closer to one another? And is that not in and of itself therapeutic?

Now I'm not saying that it answers all the issues, but does that have a blessing? I completely agree with you, and it actually takes me back to counseling.

I supervise a lot of people who are in counseling training, and one of the real common homework assignments you give to people who are in trouble is to tell them to serve others.

And we do that because it's biblical, but that which is biblical is good for your soul.

And so it's good for you to love others as Christ has loved you. It's a great privilege to show grace and to love others as Christ has loved you.

And so it's a wonderful—and those who are not committed to church are missing out on that great blessing.

In the same way, giving is a blessing. To learn, you know, the grace of our

Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might be made rich, and 2

Corinthians 8 and 9 is in the context of giving. And what a privilege it is to be committed to a local church and to be significantly investing financially in the health of that church and the outreach of that church, and you're robbing yourself not to be engaged in that way.

Amen. And I think our brethren in Scotland really hit upon it. There's a responsibility on both sides.

The churches have got to take discipleship seriously and be equipped for it and be prepared to do it.

And likewise, in turn, individuals have got to come into the church, make commitments to them.

There's without commitment, casual counseling just does not work. Right.

And there's a book a while back, Stop Dating the Church. Amen. You've got to marry it.

And a lot of people are—yeah, yeah, exactly. And a lot of people just want to date the church until they're in trouble, and then they want the church to take care of them.

Yeah. Well, it's not an accident that Scripture calls us, the church, if you will, the bride of Christ.

Not the girlfriend or boyfriend of, but the bride of. And the church is

Christ's body, it's his bride. He loves the church, he works through the church, he's established the church, the gates of hell will not prevail against it, it's his household.

To reject the church is in a sense rejecting Christ. That's an essential truth that we have to sometimes gently confront people with, don't we?

He deeply loves his church. By the way, Joe in Slovenia wants to thank both you and Laszlo for your prayer, and he says, thank you for your prayer and concern.

I receive much edification and encouragement through Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Daily. Grace and peace in Christ, our

Redeemer. Thank you, Joe, in Slovenia. We do have a listener in Domestic Beach, Long Island, New York, and perhaps,

Tyler, you could send a clarifying email to your question, but he says, when recommending a church to a brother looking for one, should you bring up the local church first?

Now, I don't think that Tyler's given us enough information in there, because obviously if a local church is a biblical church and you highly recommend the elders and the teaching and the theology, of course you would want one closest to the person, but I'm not sure what else

Tyler may be getting at. He may have unconsciously given me an incomplete question.

But do you think, that just leads me to a different question, and perhaps you can incorporate,

Tyler's. How important is it to be a member of a local church?

Because some people drive, you know, two hours to church. Literally. Yeah, and obviously there may be good reasons for that.

It might be that the only biblically sound church is two hours away, but there may be cases where people are just driving two hours because they like the choir or they like the musical program or whatever, and they really can't be as committed to that church as if they were attending a church and a member of a church that was more local to them.

That's kind of what I thought the question was addressing, and it is actually touched upon in the latter part of my mini -book, and it's kind of complicated in that sometimes you're in a situation where there's an evangelical church a mile from your house, but like even you go through the ten criteria in the book, and it's pretty short in some of those areas, and there's a wonderful church an hour away, and there's a pretty good church 30 minutes away, and there's not a mathematical answer, there's not a biblical answer saying, this is what you must do.

I would say if you're going to deal with distance, you need to be committed to bridging that distance, and we live in a day where the means exist to do that.

In the early church, if you live, you know, for most of human history, even many people in the world today, if you live a mile away, that's a 20 -minute trip, and we can go 20 miles in 20 minutes in many places, so it's not enough, and you really raise it in the question that you're to be part of a community, and I know of people who've made the decision to drive an hour or two, and sometimes you're from a more less densely populated area, the nearest church may be much further.

Many of those people will make a day of it on the Lord's Day, where they'll stay around, they'll have meals with other people in the area, there's an evening service, they go to that, so they engage all day on Sunday, and then through technology, emails, everything else, they're in touch the rest of the week.

Obviously, there's great advantage to being in a local community church, but it's,

I even have an example in the book where you, like it says, you take the ten things, and you rate, you know, the two churches as you go down the list, one to ten, this is all very subjective, but if you've got an 85, 45 minutes away, and you've got nothing higher than a 35 in the neighborhood, it's probably time to drive.

If you've got a 70 nearby and a 75 an hour away, I'd stick with the 70. You know,

Jim, you bring up a critical issue, which is that the local church is where there is flesh and blood.

And I've heard people say, well, I just watch evangelistic programs on television or on the internet, and there certainly is a place for that, but they do not substitute for the body of Christ in the fullness, in the full outworking of flesh and blood, do they?

Right, I think there's some biblical basis for challenging people there.

I think it's fascinating in Romans 1 that Paul writes to the Romans saying, I am eager to come preach the gospel to you in Rome.

To you, that's right. He's about to write Romans, but another media, which the media that he had was a book, he just gave an amazing gospel sermon in the 16 chapters of Romans, but he says in the beginning, this isn't enough for me to fully experience the engagement with you that I desire, in terms of fellowship.

The face -to -face preaching of the word conveys something reading this epistle won't do.

And the face -to -face fellowship and engagement and mutual expression of love is irreplaceable.

And then this is what you were saying there. You can't fulfill the one another. You can't greet one another with a holy kiss on a

TV screen. You can't weep with those who weep on a TV screen. You can't bear the burden and care for folks.

God has made us to be in relationship face -to -face and in so many different aspects.

We can't do what the Bible says we're to be to one another unless we're physically together in community. We have to go to a break right now, and Lazlo, you get to ask your question when we return.

Our email address, again, for those of you who want to join everyone else who has asked a question with a question of your own, our email address is

ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Jim Neuheiser and more of our discussion on Help! I Need a

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I'm Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and here's one of my favorite guests,

Todd Friel, to tell you about a conference he and I are going to. Hello, this is Todd Friel, host of Wretched Radio and Wretched TV, and occasional guest on Chris's show,

Iron, Criticizing Iron. I think that's what it's called.

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the G3 conference in Atlanta, my new hometown.

It is going to be a bang -up conference called the G3 conference, celebrating the 500th anniversary of the

Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, D .A. Carson, Votie Baucom, Conrad and Bayway, Phil Johnson, James White, and a bunch of other people.

We hope to see you there. Learn more at G3conference .com. G3conference .com.

Thanks, Todd, I think. See you at the Iron Sharpens Iron exhibitors booth.

Lynnbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lynnbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages. Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ. In fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Lynnbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Lynnbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402.

Or visit Lynnbrookbaptist .org. That's Lynnbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back, and before I return to our discussion with Jim Neuheiser on Help, I Need a

Church, I want to announce that our friends at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals are sponsoring a conference this weekend,

Friday and Saturday, November 11th and 12th. And I will be there, God willing, representing

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Dr. Joel Beeke, Anthony Carter, and Tony Merida. The theme is

The Doctrines of Grace, and if you'd like more information about the Doctrines of Grace conference,

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That's AllianceNet .org. And click on Events at the top of the page.

When you register, please let them know that you heard about the conference through Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

And we want to thank Bob Brady and everybody on staff there at the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals for orchestrating such wonderful conferences.

And our email address, again, is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own. And by the way, Jim, it reminded me when you were talking about flesh and blood before the break that watching an evangelistic program on TV every

Sunday doesn't substitute for being actually a part of the body of Christ. It reminded me of a church, one of the very first churches

I started to regularly attend before I was born again, a little Pentecostal church.

And it was a bit of a crazy little church. And there was a lot in that church that I would not recommend at all to be going on in a biblically sound congregation.

But I can still remember something that I thought was very true when the pastor of that church was screaming at the top of his lungs, standing on a pew, chastising his congregation for basically sending a lot of their money that should be going towards the support of the local church through tithes and offerings, that they were sending their money to Jimmy Swaggart and Jim and Tammy Faye Baker and all these other major Pentecostal and charismatic ministries that were dominating the airwaves in the 1980s.

I'm talking about way back when, when those ministries were still thriving. He said, is

Jimmy Swaggart going to be at your hospital bedside when you're sick or when you're critically ill? Is Jim and Tammy Faye Baker going to be there praying at the funeral of your mommy and daddy and all those things?

And he was very, I think, hitting it on the nail on the head with that, even though I had a lot of disagreement with him on many other things.

There was truth in that, isn't there? Sure. And that gets back to what it is to be a shepherd and how sheep need shepherds.

And Hebrews 13, 17 says, were to submit to those whom God has placed authority over us. They have watch over our souls.

And in many mega -churches, you could have under -shepherds under the famous guy up there.

And some of those churches are good, some aren't. You could still be doing that, but if somebody's just tuning in via TV, I mean, there are all kinds of problems with that as you recognize the doctrine and some of the doctrine is a terrible ecclesiology, a terrible doctrine of the church.

But one of the things that actually leads to another question is that there are a lot of people who give excuses as to why they are not submitted to a local church.

If you're just watching TV, for instance, you are not submitted to local elders who

God has ordained to be in authority over a flock. And that also goes not only with people who just stay home

Sunday morning and watch TV, but it goes to people who are church hoppers who never commit anywhere.

It's true. I will take those people and have them read out loud in Hebrews 13, 17.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls. Those who will give an account, let them do this with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

And I will just say, if you're in obedience to Scripture, who are the leaders to whom you're subject?

Who are those who have watch over your soul? And if you can't answer that question, then you're living in disobedience to Christ because this is the structure

He set up. This isn't my idea. And that's basically describing church membership as it's practiced, where you affiliate with a particular local church where those particular leaders have care over you.

Who will give account for your soul? Which leader will give account? Or leaders will give account for your soul on the

Day of Judgment? And if you stray doctrinally or practically, who is it to whom you will listen who could bring correction and perhaps deliver you and your family from trouble?

And I think that's a great text for answering that. I'll say one other thing to that, though, and that is that there are some people who have been burned by the other extremes.

The huge problem is people who don't want to commit and they need to be challenged with the

Scripture, and sometimes it's out of ignorance. You showed them the Word of God. I've seen a lot of people learn to be committed and grow.

There are some people who got into churches that sounded a lot like what we've been talking about the last hour, and it became an authoritarian, micromanaging, harsh environment.

And these people are really skittish about committing to the next church. We've had a few people like that come to our church over the years.

You admonish the unruly, 1 Thessalonians 5, which would be those who refuse to join and are just stubborn.

You encourage the fainthearted and you help the weak. And sometimes it takes a while for them to develop trust that you're not going to be like the last place that was so harsh and authoritarian.

And you give them time to get to know you. You get to know them. But there's always an objective, which is to build that kind of relationship rather than for it always to stay in this kind of limbo state where they're coming but not committed.

By the way, Tyler, I just wanted to let you know that we need your mailing address to send you out a free copy of Help, I Need a

Church. But I'm sorry, Laszlo, you wanted to add something? Well, Jim, what you're talking about there essentially is a trust issue, isn't it?

Right. And you know, you rightfully said, and Heaven help us, but some churches,

I hate to use the word, but they do abuse sometimes authority, and I think probably less of that than the other.

But I want to get to the title of your book because I think it's really telling. It says, Help, Help. Yeah. And it says,

I need a church. I need a church. And you know, Jim, isn't it true that when we are in fellowship with brothers and sisters, when we're bonding with them, when we're moving along with them, when we're being trained and taught and held accountable, there's a joy, a satisfaction, a blessing that we receive.

So many people want to argue, you know, they don't want to submit themselves because they want their independence.

They want to have it their way. But when we bind ourselves to community, to family, and we are family, aren't we?

There's a delight that comes from that. And if you're a believer, the Holy Spirit's put that hunger in you. You crave to hear the word.

You crave to associate with brothers and sisters. You take care of each other. You lift each other up. You correct each other.

There's a delight in that. And people who withhold from that are cutting themselves off.

Right. And I think the hardest thing about leaving Southern California to move here is we've been in the same church for 26 years.

It's family. And we love those people. We're actually going to go this weekend just for the weekend, if everything works out, to preach for a special service there.

But it was so hard even starting over and trying. Now it is help. I need a church. I so miss that intimacy of fellowship, which is a delight.

And that is a great blessing that God has designed. I think it's interesting also when you have the pictures of judgment, like in 1

Corinthians 5, church discipline is putting someone out of the church. Remove the wicked man from among you.

And similar in Matthew 18. But for a believer, that would be like the worst thing that could happen to you.

It is. Is that you've been put out of the church because that's your haven, your family.

It's your identity. Right. And some people have self -excommunicated. You can't excommunicate them because they've already put themselves out.

And that's a horrible place to be, biblically. And those people. And among the people of God. Those people that do exactly that.

And unfortunately, there are ones that do. How do you then approach them and draw them back into the warmth and the nurturing of the local assembly?

How do you do it as a pastor? Right. Well, kind of like I said, those who are stubborn,

I will challenge them based on Hebrews 13. I mean, some people are stubborn and quarrelsome.

And some people bounce from church to church because as soon as there's one thing they don't like or one person they don't like, they leave.

And I think those people are in the admonish the unruly category. And you need to show them from Scripture what the

Bible says in terms of what they need to be looking for and the necessity of being in those relationships.

And sometimes there are even issues of pride, quarrelsomeness, not being able to distinguish between gospel issues and secondary matters.

Well, in essence, you're doing newthetic counseling, as it were, because newthetic is spirit -based. And you're bringing the spirit of Christ coming through the

Word and confronting them with it, aren't you? Right. And just, again, it's back to 1

Corinthians 5, 14 is such a helpful verse. And the unruly, proud person who actually is carrying his family up because his wife and kids are just starting to get to know the people in this new place and they're about to dash off to the next one, that person needs a firmer hand than the person who was burned or has never been in a church that cared for people.

They've always been in the entertainment center or something, and you gently bring them along with the

Word of God and show them how wonderful it can be. The greatest thing that can happen is, along with the

Word of God, you actually bring them to a fellowship where this love, mutual acceptance, and that care exists, and they just, over time, see it.

We've had people in Escondido who, they all never joined a church again, and will come for several months, and over time, the trust is built up and they're very happy to be part of that family.

Amen. So it's the Word, and it's also loving them, isn't it? Absolutely. Amen. Pointing to your book, if it's not too much trouble for you, you mentioned that as you counsel people on what to look for in the church, you've got 10 criteria and you've made some subjective evaluations.

Could you just broad brush over a believer who's come to the Lord, seeking to submit himself, what should he use to judge, where should

I commit my heart? Well, one thing I tried to do in the book is briefly identify that some of the things people think are most important aren't the big issues biblically.

People want a certain style of music. I'm not talking about the content of the words, but they have strong opinions there.

They want a certain kind of kids program, and those can be preference matters among equal choices.

I'm not saying it's totally invalid. But the biggest issue is, is this a church that when you walk in just smells like the gospel?

The gospel permeates the worship, the preaching, that they love

Christ, they love the grace of God, they understand all that God has done for them.

Paul said, I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And then extending that sound and doctrine on the fundamentals of the faith, the authority of Scripture, a correct understanding of who is

God and what is man, and how does God save us? Some of that may involve some maturity in terms of not everybody's going to agree on every detail of last things, prophecy, eschatology.

But on the major fundamentals, is this a sound church? Is this a church where you're going to be fed?

Is the Word of God proclaimed faithfully, where you're sitting into the preaching and it's faithful to the text and to the heart?

Again, the worship, I'm not, I mean, I have my preferences, but is this worship about God or is it about man?

Is this worship which exalts God? Is it worship which is biblical? What they're doing is the worship the

Bible describes and not a bunch of extra -biblical add -ons.

Entertainment. There you go. A lot of folks just want to be entertained when they're in a worship service.

How do you react to the prevalent comments or defense that those who are church hoppers, or perhaps are just not even attending any church, who basically think or accuse you when you talk to them about their need to be a member of a local church and under the authority of the elders that have been appointed there, they'll say that you're basically guilty of what the

Roman Catholic Church at least used to be guilty of. Today it's almost like you get the impression that anybody can go to heaven if you're a

Roman Catholic. But the old -school Catholic idea that the church was the dispenser of grace and that salvation was inseparable from the church, and these people who are mavericks, who don't believe in the need of a church, basically say that you shouldn't be imposing on them anything that is not required for salvation.

Well, most error is a reaction against another error. So the

Roman Catholic teaching that the church defines scripture, the church dispenses salvation, is wrong.

By grace you've been saved through faith, not out of yourselves, but as a gift of God, not as a result of work. So we're saved by faith alone.

But we are also created in Christ Jesus for good works. So to say we're saved by faith alone doesn't mean you can do all kinds of evil, and it's a contradiction of the gospel to say that those who are saved by faith alone should live for the glory of God.

One part of living for the glory of God is being incorporated into a local church and loving

Christ by loving his people. And so just as the church could be made too much of in Roman Catholicism as a condition of salvation, the reaction against that is to make the church too little, just as the

Roman Catholic church, you know, to say salvation is by grace alone, which we fully acknowledge through faith alone, doesn't mean that we should go out and totally ignore the law of God in terms of how we live.

So we have to teach the whole counsel of God, which includes justification by faith alone, but it also includes those who have been saved.

Jesus said, if you love me, you'll keep my commandments. But this you know that we've come to know to keep his commandments, and you can't be faithfully keeping the commandments of Christ if you're not loving his people in the local church.

Suppose you hear the other common retort when you might say, well, you're forsaking the assembling of the brethren, which is a biblical command that you must gather with the assembled saints.

They'll say, I do. I go to First Baptist Church one week, I go to the Charismatic Church down the road the other week,

I go to the Presbyterian Church in the third week, and they just bounce around, and they think that they are in keeping with the scriptures because they are gathering with the saints every

Lord's Day at least. But that's not really what the scriptures are teaching, are they? That's why

I go back to Hebrews 13, 17, who keeps watch over your soul, and to whom are you subject in terms of accountability?

That God has established the church among other things, I mean there are many other things too in terms of gifts and giving and serving, that they're failing to be what the

Bible says they're to be, but Hebrews 13, 17 just seems like the clincher. Because of all those churches, which of those people has watch over your soul?

None of them know you well enough to be able to care for you, and you're not committed to any of them.

Another question your Pentecostal guy asked is that, if your wife's in the hospital, and she's been in an auto accident, whose responsibility is it to come sit with you and pray with you?

Whose responsibility is it to find someone to care for your kids in the midst of that situation? And then when it happens to somebody else, whose kids are you going to care for?

When that happens. And if you turn that around, our brother in Scotland made the point of, what about our responsibility?

If we are members that are, that is limbs or parts of the body, if you will, where are we being actively functional?

Which is back to 1 Peter 4, 10, which we quoted earlier, that each one of us has been gifted by God as a vital part of the body.

Church is not, you're not coming as an audience to watch a performance on the stage.

You're coming as a member of a body to be equipped to serve, to build up the rest of the body in so many different ways.

The word that's more popular now is a community, which I think can be a helpful word. You're saved to be part of a community, not part of an audience.

And by the way, our friend in Kinross, Scotland has a follow -up email. Attending a local church, when in London, I was a member of a church local to me, but no one else lived anywhere near me.

The church compensated by having active area house groups, but we still need to make a commitment.

It's very easy to deliberately join a church you are not local to and use the distance issue for not totally committing.

You can't beat being built up in the faith by good ministry, sitting alongside and fellowshipping with like -minded believers.

Sorry if you already covered this, but do people really understand why they need a church?

Do they understand what a church is and does? Right, and some of that we did cover, and I think the situation he might have been describing, and I've seen this happen in the

Grace community where John MacArthur is. They've got people coming from all over, and everybody comes on the

Lord's Day. They're broken into smaller groups even in the church, which are more like the flocks that are shepherded. Then you might have people in different communities meet together in the middle of the week, because for many it's not practical to get back together.

So if you're going to go to a church that is some distance, part of the commitment is

I'm going to spend the money on the gas, I'm going to spend time getting back and forth because I think this church is worth it.

I'm going to do what it takes in this church to be what I need to be, and that may lead to the consideration, if you're not willing to do that, to find something closer to home that's less ideal but still is a faithful church.

We have Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan, who says,

How would you address a non -denominational church such as Calvary Chapels who have no membership requirement?

How is church discipline implemented? I'm not 100 % sure he's correct on the Calvary Chapel issue about having no membership requirement, but if you could comment on that as a general question with churches in general that might not have that.

Calvary Chapels are very big in Southern California, where I came from, and a general distinctive of the

Calvary's is they're kind of an unchurch where they don't have membership like the church your parents took you to.

Some Calvary's would have what I would call a functional membership where they don't have you sign something, but if you're coming regularly, they regard you as a member, they treat you as a member, and they discipline you as a member, and you get engaged as a member.

So it's a de facto membership without formalizing it. I would say that is less than ideal, but I think people can be committed to the church and the church can be committed to them without formal membership.

There are even a few churches like that who have been shifting to make it more formal. The question really is, from the standpoint of the leaders, do you know who the sheep are for whom you will give account to God?

It's possible without formal membership to have that, although I think it's not ideal. Same thing with the people who are part of the church.

If they are really committed to that local church and they're being what the Bible says they need to be, it quacks, it waddles, it has webbed feet, but they're afraid to call it a duck.

I will acknowledge at least they're on the right track. There are other churches, however, even similar to that, where in not having membership they really abdicate much of what the church is to be, such as discipline.

Again, they exist with a very limited level of commitment, sometimes just chaired by the leaders and you have the audience coming.

That is all the disadvantages we've been talking about. By the way, Jeff, thank you for submitting a question and thank you also for giving us your mailing address already.

Expect a copy of the book, Help! I Need a Church, in the mail from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service within a week or so.

I know one way that you could definitely get under church discipline in the Calvary Chapel is just make it very well known that you're a

Calvinist. I do have friends in Calvary Chapel and I have some brothers in Christ that I really love and really respect in the

Calvary Chapel movement, but I think that there is a little bit of doublespeak when it comes to the fact that they're not a denomination and that kind of a thing, because I know pastors who were removed from their pastorate because of their adopting

Reformed theology and things like that. I want to say something for the

Calvary Chapel, and that is in our area in Southern California, there are a lot of people they've reached that would have never walked through the door of a

Reformed church, and God has saved a lot of people, and quite frankly the Lord has stocked the eldership of many

Reformed churches, especially Reformed Baptist churches with people who are converted in Calvary. Later their theology grew, and so I'm thankful, and I think also the

Calvary is one thing that often leads to them coming closer to us in our doctrine, both in terms of our Reformed theology, and I would also say in terms of biblical counseling, because they often preach through books of the

Bible, and that's going to in the long term make you better. So I'm thankful for many of the good things, and I have friends who are in Calvary, even as leaders, and there are some new ripples going in terms of recognizing they need to address dysfunctional membership, if not literal membership, and perhaps, at least in some circles, a little more freedom to describe soteriology more as we would see it.

Let me ask you something else which I've encountered. In some areas, geographical areas, good

Bible -believing churches are not necessarily easy to find, and sometimes that's an excuse, but sometimes it's a reality, and some folks choose then to worship in home churches.

What do you think is the role of a home church? Is it legitimate? Should it be a precursor to something else, or is it too often an excuse for those difficult people who want to just have it their way?

I think usually the home church involves a confusion between the institution of the family and the institution of the church.

The church is a group of families of different types, including singles, and it has elders as leaders instead of fathers, and like you said, sometimes people do home churches because they're so quarrelsome they can't find anybody they can get along with.

Often they start with two families, and if I were a betting man, I wouldn't give it a year before they'll have two churches because they haven't learned to...

Romans 15 -7, I love, Accept one another as Christ has accepted you to the glory of God. There are going to be some people who...

Everybody sometimes is a little bit difficult to get along with. There's going to be wrong about something in your opinion. It takes a lot of grace to live together in the family of God in the church.

I think, again, sometimes it's the maverick. So sometimes there's the family -olatry that neglects the place of the church as a separate institution, and sometimes it's just somebody who's ornery.

There's a lot of people who are frustrated pastor wannabes who they can't find any church that will make them a leader, so they start their own little thing unnecessarily.

Now, having said that, maybe there's somebody out in the middle of a rural area, and there isn't an evangelical church within distance.

I would still say get in your car and start driving until you can find one and it's not going to be perfect.

Or if you start one, start evangelizing and try to turn your family group into a real church, if you get to that point.

The early church met in homes. Sometimes homes isn't the problem, but sometimes it's confusing your family with the church, and they're two separate institutions.

Your family needs a church. We have to go to our final break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Jim Neuheiser on Help, I Need a

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, the guest for the full two hours today with a little less than a half hour to go is

Jim Neuheiser. We have been discussing his booklet, Help! I Need a Church. And if you'd like to ask

Jim a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail dot com.

chrisarnzen at gmail dot com. Please include your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. And we do have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who wants to know what advice you have to give to people who have been in cults and other false religions that have totally made them terrified to commit themselves to any local congregation.

Yeah, the problem with a lot of the cults is they're counterfeit churches, not just in their doctrine, but even in their structure, where they have leadership, they have discipline, and I could see that it'd be very scary for someone who'd been in a sinfully erroneous cult to come to a church which is faithful, and there are aspects that are similar.

So that person probably needs to spend some time, one would be to see what the

Scripture teaches about the local church, and then to be in a church which is faithful and loving and observe the differences over a period of time.

What a great thing it would be that God would deliver them out of the false doctrine of the cult, but also the false community.

Many communities are counterfeit churches. There are even recovery groups sometimes. There are a lot of examples of counterfeit churches.

The Lord has established something wonderful. Satan is a liar, and he creates counterfeits of the

Gospel, and he creates counterfeits of every good thing that God has made, the church being one of those.

So exchange the counterfeit for the real thing. Yeah, I've often reminded people that Judas was one of the

Twelve Apostles, and we shouldn't reject Jesus because of Judas, and just because there are horrible churches, even churches that are perhaps on paper theologically and doctrinally

Orthodox that are horrible churches because of the abuses that go on, and just because they exist doesn't mean that all churches are like that.

And on top of that, in the other extreme, if you have actually entered into a perfect church, somebody better check your pulse, because that means you've died.

That's a good point. And of course, I'm not trying to be glib, because there are people whose lives have been put through nightmarish, horrible situations, not only with cultic false doctrine, but even with pastors who have molested their children or their spouses or themselves, or a whole host of things.

But obviously, humility is a big issue here, because even in the midst of the worst nightmare that could have occurred in a church, it doesn't give somebody a license to disobey

Christ and His Word. Right. One thing we actually do in the mini -book is it begins with different scenarios where people have trouble with the church.

And one of the scenarios is somebody chose a church solely based upon doctrine, but they didn't really investigate the leadership in terms of their qualifications and their maturity and their practices.

So the doctrine looked good, but the leadership was acting in an authoritarian, harsh way.

In that example, that family wound up changing to a church which the doctrine was still fine, but it's not enough to go online and say, oh, they've got a great doctrinal statement.

I agree with every line of it. You need godly, mature men who are shepherding the flock in a

Christ -like way. And sometimes you may have a church that sounds like they're theologically sharp, but they're not caring for people and loving people and leading in a

Christ -like way. Roslo, I think that you had a question that you wanted to ask. Well, I did. You said something that I think is critical.

We need discernment, and I'll get to that in a moment, but sometimes we've got to really be prepared to go to a place, even if it's distant, even to a point where we may have to move.

And I'm thinking of Chris here. He lived on Long Island, and after circumstances came into play, he chose to come to Carlisle to be under good teaching and under good preaching.

And we have people that have attended our church, and I'm not lifting up our church, but have attended good churches, often at great cost in terms of travel.

And I even know people, and I know you do too, Jim, that have moved, changed jobs, so they could be under sound teaching.

And not everyone's able to do that, but seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these other things will sort out, won't they?

Yeah, I agree. And I think that just the way you said it, not everybody will do that. And there are many good churches, but a huge consideration, if someone is considering a move, like I've just done, is the importance of a church community.

And there are places where you may go. When people move, they check out the schools, they check out the weather, they check out a lot of things.

A huge issue would be, are there churches that seem like they would be strong possibilities for us?

And you may find yourself in a situation. I mean, some people move just to get away from bad weather. How much more, if you're in an isolated place and you can't find a church where your family is thriving, then you know, sometimes people left a great situation and went to a bad one for career reasons or whatever.

We've had people who would move back, with a job, I trust, but they've made that decision.

It's a personal decision. There's so many of these considerations. How far do I drive? Do I move?

How much do I compromise on my doctrinal standards to be a part of this fellowship? Those are difficult choices, but at least they're considerations that people ought to think seriously about.

Now, if there's a new believer, a young believer, who's got a burden to submit himself, and I know you've given a checklist in your book on criteria there,

I think it's important to remember, and you've made the point, he needs to go to Scripture and study what

Scripture says about fellowship. Sometimes it's not easy to discern what

Scripture says. There's much there, and you've got to go through it, and certainly your book would help, but I think there's a large place for prayer.

And think about this, Jim, and tell me if you agree. The Lord saves us one by one, but he saves us unto the kingdom, and it's in that corporate body that we glorify

God through public worship. And he wants us to be part of the kingdom through the outworking of a local assembly.

Would he not provide one if we're truly seeking it? And should we not burden our hearts and just pour out our desires to him?

Lord, bring us to a rightful fellowship. And, I mean, even where I've been in recent months here in Charlotte, is give me wisdom among the faraway option and the nearby option and all these decisions

I'm having to make among where would I best serve Christ, where would my family best be cared for.

Now, you mentioned a young Christian. Part of what I would ask is, well, if he's a young Christian, if the Lord used some individual to bring him to faith, that seems like a great place to start in terms of looking for a church.

Another thing I would mention that's a little more detailed than my little mini -book is

Wayne Mack and Dave Swavely have a book called Life in the Father's House, which goes through what the church should be and lots of scripture about expounding the fundamentals.

Well, they've got a chapter where I just have a few pages going through the 10 things. John Croft has a similar book, more of a, written as like a little

Christian novel where somebody has questions or meeting for coffee and talking through these same issues.

So, there are more extensive treatments in mind that would help somebody who's wrestling with that. Chris, what caused you to come to Carlisle?

Well, my wife passed away in 2011 and I found that the surroundings where I was living were causing deep depression.

I knew that I just needed a change of location, a change of surroundings, and I wanted to definitely move to a place where I knew that there was a biblically sound church.

I happen to be so in love with the doctrines of grace, I don't think that I could have voluntarily moved to a place where I didn't know that there was a solid

Reformed Baptist church nearby. And I also had some Christian friends that I already had known from years past that live in Carlisle or near Carlisle.

And so, that was basically the two -fold reasons that I chose this place. Oh, and I forgot one of the most important reasons of all is that the rent that I'm paying in my apartment, you could not live in a crack house on Long Island for the cost of rent that I'm paying.

And I'm living in a beautiful 19th century Presbyterian parsonage. The parsonage of George Norcross and a 19th century pastor of the

Second Presbyterian Church in Carlisle from 1860s to the early 1900s.

And that is the home of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Studio. But you had a real need for church, didn't you?

Yes. This is real for you. Yes, in fact, as one who has been personally under church discipline,

I realized the enormous value of discipline because I, unfortunately, years ago, had slipped back into the sin of drunkenness and addiction to alcohol, abuse of alcohol.

And I realized that if it were not for biblical church discipline with love as the motivation and restoration as the motivation,

I might be dead right now. And so I do praise God for that. And I don't shy away from mentioning that on the air because I know that there are a lot of people who are probably terrified about coming out of the darkness and revealing to their elders what kind of problems that they're battling with, especially involving sin.

And so, therefore, I'm just encouraging people that church discipline does not need to be the end of the road for anybody, especially if you submit yourself to the biblical counsel and discipline of the elders where God has placed you.

And I want to also make sure that before we run out of time, Jim, that I give you four or five minutes to really unburden your heart to make sure that what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners is spoken to them before we run out of time because I also definitely want to give your contact information and so on.

So I'll give you the floor for the next five minutes. Well, in terms of passion, when the elders are told in Acts 20 -28,

Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which he purchased with his own blood.

The church of the Lord Jesus Christ is precious to our Savior who bought us at a great price.

And in that verse, he's speaking to elders, pastors, and telling them to watch themselves lest they fall into error.

Watch over each other, keep each other accountable, but then telling them to keep watch over the flock.

And so there is the church universal, but there's also the local church.

He's speaking there to the elders of Ephesus. The flock they were watching over wasn't the church in Philippi.

It was the church in Ephesus. That's the flock. You're either in or out of that flock with his membership.

And they care for that flock, but that flock doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the Savior who purchased that flock.

And so Christ wants you, as a believer, he wants you to be added to a flock where faithful shepherds will feed you the

Word of God, will disciple you, and Paul preached both publicly and from house to house.

And so not just the public ministry of the Word, but the private ministry of the Word is offered to you.

And there's a community of love where you're benefiting from the many gifts in the body, and then you have the great privilege of using the gifts that God has given you to accomplish what may be some of the most important work you'd do in this life, to serve

Christ by caring for his people and promoting evangelism and missions and mutual love.

The church is the pillar of the support of truth. It's the household of God. When history is discussed in heaven, we're not going to talk about who won the election today.

We're going to talk about what Christ has done through his church. And as a believer, when he saves you, incorporates you into his church, and then to be engaged with other believers in a local flock, to be doing things that will matter for eternity.

Thank you for that. And, you know, there are people who go to a church for reasons that would not be primary reasons.

For instance, there are those who might be a gifted musician.

They might be a gifted singer. They might be gifted in some way where they don't feel like they're being used to use these gifts to the glory of God publicly in the corporate worship or in the body.

So they prefer or select to go to a church and attach themselves to a church that they know is theologically inferior.

It might even be, in their opinion, somewhat on the heretical side on certain issues.

But they choose to go there. They will say, I'm using my gifts, and I'm also going to be a light to these people and God -willing down the road guide them through my influence into deeper truth.

Is that... Do you think that that is wise to take that tactic on selecting a church?

Obviously not. I'm going to use the quantifying thing again that if a church is not faithfully proclaiming the gospel and the shepherds don't care about shepherding the sheep, run away.

I don't care if they offer to make you the full -time choir person. Don't attend a church that you'd be ashamed to bring your fellow

Christian friends to because they'd say, what on earth are you doing here? Don't attend a church where if you were leading someone to faith, you couldn't bring them to that church and know that they'd be discipled and fed the

Word of God. Have to draw the line somewhere. Now, among good churches, if there's a church that's ideal and there's one that's...

You know, again, you've got a church that's an 85 and you've got one that's an 80 that really wants you or needs you,

I think you're free to choose a church that isn't perfect doctrinally in your view but found in the fundamentals because you think you can be more useful in the other place.

But if it's a 27 and they're not even clear on the gospel, run away. I don't care what they're going to pay you or what they'll let you do.

Again, if you can't invite people, be it unsafe friends or Christians who are visiting you or Christians who need a church to the church you're attending, don't even think about it.

Keep looking. Now, would you recommend this booklet that you have written or this mini -book, for instance, when people are passing out tracts or evangelizing individuals that are lost or they're not even certain where they stand before God, in addition to an evangelism tract or other material that has the gospel in it, wouldn't this be a good accompaniment to instill upon people that you can't be just someone, if you're going to be obedient to Christ, you can't just go off into the woods and meditate alone and think that that is acceptable to God or pleasing to God.

You need to be a part of a local church in addition to just experiencing the blessing of salvation.

One of the things that I know about membership, it's also a guardrail.

It's not perfect, but it is a guardrail to help prevent people from sliding back into the sinful behaviors that they may have been addicted to or plagued with.

And Jim, are you still there? I had a feeling that Jim got disconnected somehow. So before I'm going to give

Jim the opportunity to call back, hopefully Jim will be able to call back before we end the program,

I'm going to make sure that I give Jim's website, well, actually Shepard Press' website,

Shepard Press' website where you can order the book. Jim, are you back?

Yep. I don't know what happened there. No idea. That was strange. But anyway,

I was just giving the website for Shepard Press for those who want to order the book, which is coming up on my screen.

It's ShepardPress .com. ShepardPress .com if anybody wants to order this book.

It's a book that is so inexpensive you could really afford.

Your church would really stock up on a case or more of this book. But if you could respond to what

I was saying, I was saying that the church is also a guardrail, not a perfect guardrail or an infallible one, but is a guardrail that helps prevent people from sliding back into wicked behaviors that had enslaved them in the past.

Yeah, and it's great. I love your testimony, Chris, and how God did that in your own life.

One reason we need the church is because we're prone to wander. Even as a pastor elder, I need other pastor elders to keep watch over my soul.

That's something we all really, really need. And I appreciate you mentioning this booklet in terms of churches.

This is something that we get all these visitors coming to church sometimes who don't want to commit. It's the kind of thing

I hope churches could pass out that would challenge people to see, the visitors to see, the need to commit to a local church.

It's not going to tell you which church to join, but at least it's going to challenge you with the importance of commitment to a local church, the blessings, and then something to look for biblically.

And I already gave the website for Shepherd Press. Do you have any other contact information that you care to give?

There's a tremendous amount of free counseling resources on ibcd .org, including a lot of my materials.

And all the Shepherd Press mini -books do have a gospel presentation in them.

Whatever subject I've written, others on anger, on biblical change, but the gospel is always present as the foundation for everything we're teaching.

And one of the things that a lot of people have complained about is that they will say, look,

I am living on poverty level, but I know I need some biblical counseling.

And when they investigate seeing a biblical counselor or a

Christian counselor, they find out that it's going to cost much more than they could possibly afford.

What advice do you have for individuals like that? Join a church that shepherds the sheep and they will do it for free.

And if you need help outside of that, they will find somebody and help pay for it so it doesn't cost you if you can't afford to pay.

Most counseling should be done in the local church and shepherds should shepherd sheep. And if something's beyond their experience, they should know solid people.

And in many cases, churches are paying for good biblical counsel and actually many biblical counseling centers like IBCD don't charge.

The downside of that is the demand out -supplies too much compared to the supply. But it all goes back to the church.

Well, once again, I do want to repeat the Shepherd Press website for those of you who would like to get a hold of this booklet or mini -book or better yet, get a case of them or more for your church.

Perhaps you are a pastor who is listening or you are a deacon or you're just an active member and you want to give your church a good gift or something that they should have in their narthex or lobby.

Go to shepherdpress .com, shepherdpress .com and you'll not only find that book, but you'll find a whole host of other things.

And this again was this book that we have highlighted today is Help, I Need a Church by Jim Neuheiser.

I thank you so much for being our guest today, Jim and Laszlo Pastor. Thank you so much for spending the time with me today as my co -host.

Well, I appreciate it. It's been a blessing. And I do also want to give the website for the congregation where Laszlo and I are members.

It's gracebaptistcarlisle .org, gracebaptistcarlisle, C -A -R -L -I -S -L -E dot org.

I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions for our guest,

Jim Neuheiser. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives,

Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.

And always remember another thing, that no matter who wins this presidential election, Christ is always on the throne.