November 8, 2016 Show with Jim Newheiser on “Help! I Need a Church!”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Now, here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

And the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth.

Listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arns in your host of iron sharpens iron.

Wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 8th day of November election day

2016 and I'm delighted to have on the program for the very first time ever.

Jim Neuheiser, he's director of the Christian counseling program at Reform Theological Seminary in

Charlotte, North Carolina.

Executive director of IBCD which stands for the Institute for Biblical Counseling and

Discipleship and he has a.

He is a fellow and board member of ACBC the Association of Certified Biblical

Counselors today.

We're going to be discussing his book help.

I need a church and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to iron sharpens iron for the very first time.

Jim Neuheiser.

Thank you.

I think I just mispronounced your name Neuheiser, right?

And also for the first time co -hosting my program today.

Providentially, I found out that a member of my of the church where I'm a member Grace Baptist Church in

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

A fellow member there Laszlo Pastor.

I just found out this morning.

He happens to be a personal friend of Jim Neuheiser and I've always wanted to have Laszlo co -host with me.

He's been actively involved in the military for a great portion of his

life and is now retired from the military.

He was also working at the United States Army War College here in Carlisle and It's great

to have you in the studio for the first time.

Laszlo Pastor.

Well, thank you Chris.

It's a real blessing to be with this program and what exactly were your duties with the War

College before you retired from there?

Initially when I first went to the War College I was a headquarters company commandant and then my last assignment

was in peacekeeping and stability operations.

That's I got back from Iraq and we were looking at what they call phase four operations.

Which is what happens after the kinetic or the combat ends and you try to rebuild a country.

In which a branch of the service were you in army and And How do you know our guest Jim Neuheiser?

Well, it's a small world.

Jim was the pastor of my wife's family and Jim was here in a conference and my wife's family Contacted

us and said could you put up Jim?

We said we'd be delighted.

So Jim and I had a bond of friendship.

We have mutual interest in the Civil War and We visited with them.

We've sat under his preaching when we visited and We've just kept up our friendship through that

great and.

Jim you are director as I already announced of the Christian counseling program at

RTS Also known as Reformed Theological Seminary Charlotte, North Carolina.

I've interviewed Members of the faculty there and the other branches of RTS as well

Including dr. Michael Kruger and others, but tell our listeners who may be discovering

RTS for the first time.

And during today's show tell our listeners something about RTS and exactly what you do there.

Yeah, we're.

I

am so far

as I know the lone Baptist Reformed

Baptist on faculty.

But I've been treated very well and not a citizen in the kingdom of heaven.

We have multiple characters in Jackson.

Campus is now in Charlotte, Orlando.

Developing in Atlanta Washington now just announced in Dallas.

It's one seminary with multiple campuses,

which is actually among the Reformed RTS system unique to this campus.

It's along the lines of physical counseling like Christian Counseling and Education Foundation in

Pennsylvania ACBC typical counselors.

So on the sufficiency of script needs and

issues and in existence for two years I was brought in actually moved here this summer

to be the director of the teaching and Organizing the curriculum

and legal for almost 30 years.

Hmm.

I'm not even sure you're aware of this, but dr.

Michael Kruger before he became a Presbyterian was actually a pastoral intern at Grace

Baptist Church where I'm now a member.

Actually, I was

aware of

California and actually lived in the church.

And tell us now

about the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors.

You know the

70s Jay Adams writing competent to counsel kind of challenging

the news of integrating

sexual organization set up.

One was Christian Counseling and Education Foundation, which was primarily a training organization and

then a Group called Nank.

The Association started the National Association of Epithetic Counselors.

Was started as a certifying organization that would be in her organizations.

But it would be setting standards for training.

Was they learned to counsel new name

of Nank

a

few years

ago and

he

flamboyant to

go

now.

Would you say that one of the things that makes biblical counseling stand apart from other?

Christian counselors is that many who identify themselves as Christian counselors

either consciously or unconsciously import a lot of secular

psychology into what they're doing and Perhaps even to a dangerous level.

Would that be a fair assessment?

Well, I want

to give our listeners

our email

address.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris a r n z e n at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA, I do understand that Whenever we have a counselor on

especially There there may be people who are asking questions That

would cause them to prefer Not to identify even their first

name city and state or country.

So they'd rather remain anonymous and I understand that and I will grant your wish to

remain anonymous If that is the case, but if it's not about something personal private intimate

I'd ask of you to just at least please give us your first name city state and country when you email.

And well, first of all, I need a church.

I think that would be a very healthy and Refreshing utterance to hear someone say

those words because there are a lot of Christians wandering around who say the exact opposite thing even though they claim to be

born again and Disciples of Christ they will say I don't need a church.

But what led you to write this booklet?

I need a church.

I.

Love that question.

Thanks.

Book actually really came out of the context of

counseling near

San Diego.

And we found that so many people were coming to us who really did not have

a local church.

And we found that our ability to help people was limited and

Sometimes non -existent because of

that lack and people coming

they need intervention.

You're going on

in their lives where

people who are not connected at all to a church Which is not uncommon

local reasons people

that I

can't keep working with you until you

start Long

-term defined

a church people sometimes major in when choosing

a church and then finally

really was in my heart to give to people

To convince them why they should be looking for in terms of church.

Jim.

Why do you think?

People today Christians are often or sometimes reluctant to join

together in the body of Christ.

What is it the root of this?

Estrangement, if you will question last

lowly one would be

have not been tight.

So that's the church is doing isn't it?

Well, it's kind of one -on -one evangelism and I'm thankful when

people are converted to one -on -one evangelism.

But in the Bible, they were always added to a church like an act to I think sometimes there's been an emphasis

upon creating converts, you know without using the church to make

Anti -establishment

have membership and we we're not like that church you grew up in that you hate.

You can come and go as you please and attractiveness to that to some people.

Those would be a couple of more reasons.

Well, I think that the.

Observations you make indicate that in some sense the culture has permeated the church more than the church has

permeated the culture, hasn't it?

Yeah, I think that's a great way to summarize.

The church is supposed to be not conformed to the world or something distinct and remarkable in not of the world

but as church and

when they way below what the

Bible says, so I guess another conclusion would be that

part of the problem that.

Individuals separate themselves is due to the shortfall of the church.

There are many churches

and I mean one why that matter.

You don't want all your counselees coming to your church.

Yeah.

You'd have a disproportionate amount of trouble in San Diego.

There would be many churches that I think are fundamentally sound gospel preaching,

you know.

Do the things we talked about in the booklet?

So I wanted to do there many wonderful churches.

Paul.

So the day would come when people would want their ears tickled and there would not be you know Sound preaching of sound

doctrines.

That's still true today that there will be.

Many churches people want to hear in it.

Jeff.

Or not having it's going to be the content of a

message which is watered down or even the gospel may be Not

existent.

I think there

are other

churches where they're the

key.

We have a first -time Questioner, I don't know if he's a first -time listener we have a

first -time questioner in Lancaster, Pennsylvania named Penn and Penn

Asks, how can Christians go about organizing regular meetings with an individual

that may need Biblical guidance, I guess I'm not a hundred percent certain what he means by the question but I'm

assuming he means outside of the context of a local church, but perhaps as a a

Initial step before bringing that person into a church Who

might not might not even be a Christian and he had just as Some friends that are Christian.

I'm assuming that's what Penn needs and he can follow up with a clarification email if he wants, but if you could take

what he has written and Respond the best you can how can?

How can Christians go about organizing regular meetings with an individual that may need

biblical guidance?

When people would call look to them

for help.

Who may need help May be in a church and should

call upon that church to do what the Bible says the church.

If you as a Christian who is not in

church Romans 15 14 Paul says that

concerning you I'm convinced you're full of goodness full of knowledge able to admonish one another.

That all of us as believers are in a sense that

we can with people point them

to a non

-churched

person I mean would be I need to

help you.

Because

the program

integrate

the person who has need into the life of the church.

To be a functioning Member of a church where they can give blessing to others.

Now obviously the added Complicated factor to this though is that a person could be in

a heretical church.

They could be in a very liberal apostate church.

They could be in a Roman Catholic Church.

They could be in a cult.

So obviously to tell them to go back to any church.

Which unfortunately I think is the custom of the Billy Graham Association.

One of the reasons that I have great difficulty with the Billy Graham Evangelistic

Association is that they at their rallies.

Those who are counselors are forbidden.

To dissuade someone from returning to whatever church they are a member of

so.

Would you think that it would be at least an appropriate thing to say?

I'll tell you what I'm gonna take my my breakfast break with you or my lunch break with you

at the local diner Every week and if you don't mind, I'll invite a friend of mine from church who happens to be a deacon,

etc Etc and starting off that way.

Would that would that be an appropriate?

Initial step to get somebody to get their feet wet if you will before they start regularly attending a

church.

I.

Think that's great.

It's kind of a door to help.

I agree with you I would never send anybody to a church that the

situations that we sometimes ran into would be a church that Formally is an evangelical church.

So the soul of the Reformation and authority of Scripture.

But then that church and then you know Sometimes

he would God would have the

most one aspect of the book was it the most important thing you're looking for it.

So you would never want to put anything sometimes the church

follows them on

that

in the script

when yet.

Maybe I am in the wrong church

or stand there in the

wrong place.

You know, Jim, you've pointed in a couple directions there.

Well If you think about it if Hermeneutically the word counseling is not used

per se in the modern sense of the word counseling in Scripture.

However, the concept of discipleship is very much alive.

Perhaps and tell me if it's your observation.

Some churches are just not prepared to do discipleship Counseling and secondly you

mentioned discipline some churches and are not prepared to do that.

And so They may be prepared to preach and teach but are they

prepared and should they be prepared to Do the personal contact one -on -one as you

suggest I think.

You are right in terms

of for the flock of God Peter and Paul, but

I'm saying I've done and

church is not willing to shepherd us.

And then they realize in spite of what's being said in the pulpit.

They're not really willing to be how many important things a church needs to be.

And in terms of counsel this sling and

discipleship.

I Agree, I think

with what you're getting at.

It's big.

No really needed long -term discipleship.

Amen, I'll do the faith.

That's right.

And their growth in Christ so they can learn how to be self feeders and problem solvers.

Coming along just when they're in the midst of a crisis.

Yeah.

Well.

I think that the reasons for some churches and some individuals being reluctant to join churches and

Some churches being reluctant to Deal with individuals at the core of who they are is the issue of

accountability and commitment across the board.

In our culture those churches that Don't exercise discipline and we're not promoting

harsh discipline, but biblical loving discipline sometimes are embarrassed to hold anyone accountable

and many individuals because of our Independent culture our Lone Ranger attitude do

not want to be accountable nor submit themselves to any authority and Along with that

concomitantly is the issue of commitment.

The issue of commitment is critical and it goes across again the whole culture and it impacts the

inter personal relations in the Institutional relationships of the church, which I

think is part of the reason people are Jumping from church to church and

reluctant to commit to churches.

What's your thought?

I.

Agree, everything you just said that's a little bit Kind

of refueled

of a community let and

that is

deep big

Problem.

It's one of the mega.

Some megachurches really make an effort to shepherd the sheep, but a lot of them

there's the big gathering responses and

finances and Individual disciples who are

in deep trouble.

And often they'll pawn that off either on a secular where

there's a psychologist.

Or sometimes we'll even try to send them to a biblical counselor.

They're not really willing to do the church.

Well, it's an interesting observation and it just reminds me of studies George Barna did about

Christian worldview and you have pastors that one either don't have one or if

they do they're afraid to Act upon them and preach them and as a result as we have

We have shallow churches that are not doing the full work of the Holy Spirit Which is to touch lives.

Right, and some of this again is how in terms of our counseling ministry and how the booklet came into being is

We I had people could have the

music in the

sermon and they come

to us.

That's not

acceptable.

No, it's supposed to be going on in their home churches, isn't it?

Right, so we're trying to teach them to turn to their church and call their church do what the Bible says.

There's the job of your leave and maybe I'm in the wrong

church.

May sound true and he's funny.

And he's fun to listen to however, but again when I'm in a crisis and I need a lifeboat or a life jacket.

These people are not there for me with biblical answers.

And so it's flashy, but how do I find a place where my family

will be cared for in the way the Bible says?

Well an obvious question Jim that would follow is if your observation is correct, and I think that it

is.

What is the way to change those churches and I think we do know the answers, but I think it needs to be stated.

How would you state the needs of the church so that they can?

Be the church where individuals can go for more than the things that you said which are sometimes shallow and

Sometimes where they don't reach at the heart of individual souls and minister to the wounded in the hurting.

What would you?

Have as your prescription for the change that's necessary.

I.

Don't have a plan by which I can grab hold and get him to

change.

Smaller church to be faithful in shepherding sheep and trust the Lord will send us a bunch.

Then in context of the counseling

ministry more comprehensive

CD We and

we will teach them how to Work through this problem with you and then we'll

turn you over to them to continue to care for you.

And sometimes in one of these very large churches, you're not going to get the senior pastor is famous.

But you're going to get a guy on the next level of staff.

And if you can get him excited about the whole training

other people in the church thing that I'd be city has done.

It's created training programs where you can get lots of people in the church trained to do the basics of this.

We've seen situations where just can be

Transformed all of our churches even the ones you and I would say are really good churches could be improved in this area.

Amen.

In terms of my own life.

That's what I've been doing which in probably the larger scale version is.

IBCT has a care and discipleship program.

Where?

We go into churches.

We have all kinds of training materials.

And if you can get someone again, it's rarely the senior pastor in a giant church.

But even you know someone next level down in a very large church.

Well as we said in the military.

It's called training the trainers and what you've just described It sounds like to me is you're equipping the church.

One of your jobs and functions and roles is Not only to do personal counseling, but to equip others

to do likewise.

Exactly and actually the way I BCD work and I BCD actually started 30 years ago as more than

30 years ago is DCF as a West Branch in San Diego is.

We don't rather do counseling with

observer counseling to learn to counsel or Seminary

students or the

demand is absolutely overwhelming and even as I've come out here to Charlotte again, it's overwhelming but to train

people like the

Moses model where You get lots of people who can deal with the ordinary cases and even in a

local church get a few people who are highly.

Trained you can do it by the way before I forget if you could say

hello to pastor Nathan Trice in Charlotte, North Carolina, if you ever

bump into him, he is the pastor of the Matthews Orthodox Presbyterian Church right near

Charlotte, and he's a dear brother in Christ.

So if you ever happen to bump into him, please send my regards Chris Ornson from iron sharpens iron.

Tell him that I said hello by the way pen in Lancaster.

Since you are a first -time questioner You're not only going to be getting a

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I need a church by Jim Neuheiser compliments of Shepherd Press but you're

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You have to go to a break right now.

And if anybody else would like to join us on the air.

We do have several waiting to have their questions asked and answered already.

But if you'd like to join them, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen.

If you just tuned us in our guest today is Jim Neuheiser and we are discussing his book help.

I need a church.

Co -hosting in studio with me is Laszlo Pastor a friend of his he's also a fellow fellow

member along with me at Grace Baptist Church in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and he is

a retired military man who also Had some very Long

-lasting work Involving the local United States Army War College here in Carlisle.

And if you'd like to join us on the air regarding our subject help, I need a church.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and we do have a Few listeners

already waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

We have Joe in Slovenia.

Joe says.

You and brother Jim are probably aware that missionaries living and working long -term

across culturally I'm sorry who working

long -term cross culturally Face significant challenges and struggles that

are not addressed adequately by mission sending agencies.

Please ask brother Jim if Reform Theological Seminary or the Institute for Biblical Counseling

provide ongoing counseling for international ministry missionaries Living abroad

via Skype or other internet based interaction.

Thanks so much for your quality and edifying programming.

So if you could Jim.

Sure

purpose

of my trip

there was

not just to sue

and with some

missionary families and future missionaries there and I fully

my Primary answer

with mission agencies

where he doesn't want to oppose them.

He's not against them, but they're irregular and that.

The ideal is that the local church and so for example our church in

Escondido in California is we sent out missionaries.

We viewed people and that inclusions

phone conversations visits from elders pastors.

Recognizing the unique challenges and needs they have and to be engaged with them

and take full responsibility.

So may not do

that be done would be made aware of

and send more effectively.

And then it could be

more faithfully, but if someone is out in the field.

People on staff who could do exactly what you suggest.

Agency

matter.

So I'm sure some are better

and not just

another answer.

May be and I've been downrange in a couple different countries.

And I've worked around missionaries with them.

Is it very often missionaries just gather together and inform.

Oh Informal associations where they just essentially minister to one another.

They may be from different agencies denominations.

But very often there's an affinity and I think that even there they can submit to face -to

-face Counseling, but again, they have to be discriminating as to who they submit to.

Right on

Reformation weekend they've more than 300

people from Syrians and you

others a little more broader stripe even and.

These the missionary.

Yeah, even then a goal on the field should be to establish local churches.

That's a goal of every missionaries to establish local churches, no.

That is that seems that is what they did it acts and that I think we need to be doing and

Part of that

would be your home church backing you up.

They're not local resources that are sufficient.

One of the observations I made is that often missionaries, especially in fresh works or

isolated and alone and.

That truly is tough because other than their spouses or family members or perhaps people back in the

States via Skype.

For a while and sometimes for a long while they don't have anybody to turn to.

I found as we sent people out initially.

They needed a lot more attention and had more of a certain

that diminished some.

But that's where either the agency.

Not just wait for the mission.

Sometimes by the time you hear from the missionary the boats already going down.

But to be regularly engaged and caring for these folks so that.

Just to recognize that missionaries on the field are going to have.

Jim we do have a follow -up question from Joe in Slovenia he says.

Please ask brother Jim to give his opinion and insights regarding the counseling approach of

Brant and Skinner in their book the heart of the problem.

That is if you are familiar with it.

I'm really not familiar enough with that book to be able to make a.

Profitable comment.

Okay.

Well Joe in Slovenia.

Thank you for providing a USA Mailing address of your daughter because

you're we're going to be mailing you out To the United States address you gave a copy of

I need a church by Jim Neuheiser.

So thank you very much for that and your daughter should be getting that shortly.

Compliments not only of Shepherd Press the publishers But Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service who

are going to be shipping that out to her.

Can I make a suggestion as I listen to you read Josie?

No, I got a burden for him and I as I say, I've seen other missionaries up.

Jim I'm gonna ask you to do something if you would brother.

Could you just lift up Joe and prayer now and other missionaries who are hurting alone and without counsel

without Other brothers in the Lord to lean upon.

Could you just pray for those and you've seen them just as I've seen them.

Sure Father in heaven we thank you make

sacrifice Sometimes with

drink from them and say the

Ephesians the inner

man to fully court that you would provide.

We've been sent out to do hard work the concern for finances

that would care for the needs of these men women their children and

That they could be able to the technology that exists now and

Help utilize that or they become

severe praying Jesus name. Amen.

Thanks, Jim.

We have Murray in Kinross Scotland who wants to know if we should be

impressing upon individuals more.

That their gifts are needed in the church rather than how the church can help

them.

I guess in one sense you could paraphrase John F. Kennedy in his favorite his famous speech

Ask not what your church can do for you, but ask what you can do for your church.

But does Murray have something there?

Obviously that can't be.

Always or even the dominant thing that you address people with because of you're gonna be meeting

unbelievers as well.

Who need eternal life?

Through hearing the preaching of the gospel, but but but is there something there that Murray in Kinross Scotland

has.

Hit the nail on the head there.

These first each one is received serving one another as good

stewards of the manifold.

And there's so much in the Bible about using our spirit

the

unchurched.

Someone who's not been committed to a church not connected to a church and then they face a crime.

And you know their family, but

they've never been in and you join a church.

My view would be in our local churches.

There's not going to be somebody homeless as a member of our church.

Yeah, there's

not gonna be someone in

Christ.

I can't to the counseling

center anybody from anywhere

in this to that crisis

and yeah, one of the benefits when you

your turn I don't need and

then when you're in to you when you've.

Maybe the Lord can

use that

if

they don't understand fully committed in the community.

Well, Jim, how about this?

Just by the act of commitment in and of itself, isn't there a therapeutic value?

I mean we are saved under good works and we exercise those good works in the body through the

body to the body.

We're equipped to exercise them to the world in the church.

And when we are actively Inobedience does that not in and of itself

draw us closer to the Lord?

Does that not bind us closer to one another and is that not in and of itself therapeutic now?

I'm not saying that it answers all the issues, but does not have a blessing.

I.

Completely agree with you and it actually takes me back to counseling is I supervise.

A lot of people are in counseling training.

And one of the real common homework assignments you give to people who are in trouble is to tell them to serve others.

Amen, but that which is biblical is good for your soul.

Amen.

And so it's good for you to love others as Christ has loved you.

It's a great privilege To show grace and to love others as Christ has loved you.

And so it's a wonderful thing out on that great

blessing.

In the same way giving is a blessing.

You know the grace of our Lord's sake

he became poor that you through his poverty might be made rich.

And second Corinthians 8 9 is in the context of giving.

And what a privilege it is to be committed to a local church and to be Significantly investing financially

not to be

engaged.

Amen, and I think our brethren Scotland really hit upon it.

There's a responsibility on both sides.

The churches have got to take discipleship seriously and be equipped for it and be prepared to do it and

Likewise in turn Individuals have got to come into the church make commitments to them.

There's got to be a mutual commitment.

Without commitment casual counseling just does not work.

Well back.

Amen, you got to marry it.

A lot of people are yeah.

Exactly and a lot of people in them.

Yeah.

Well, it's not an accident that.

Scripture calls us the church if you will the bride of Christ not the girlfriend or boyfriend of

but the bride.

That's an essential truth that just we have to some sometimes gently confront people with don't we.

He deeply loves his church.

By the way, Joe in Slovenia wants to thank both you and Laszlo for your prayer and

he says.

Thank you for your prayer and concern or receive much edification and encouragement.

Through iron sharpens iron radio daily grace and peace in Christ our Redeemer.

Thank you Joe in Slovenia.

We do have a listener in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York and

Perhaps Tyler you could send a clarifying email to your question, but he

says When recommending a church to a brother looking for one

should you bring up the local church first?

Now I don't think that Tyler has given us enough information in there because Obviously if a local church is a

biblical church and you highly recommend the elders and the teaching and the theology.

Of course you would want one closest to the person but I'm not

sure what else Tyler may be getting at.

He may have unconsciously given me a complete an incomplete question, but

Do you think that just leads me to a different question and perhaps you can incorporate Tyler's?

How important is it to be a member of a local church because some people drive?

You know two hours to church literally, yeah, and Obviously there may be good

reasons for that.

It might be that the the only biblically sound church is two hours away, but.

But there may be cases where people are just driving two hours.

Because they like the choir or they like the musical program or whatever and they really can't be

as committed to that church if as if they were Attending a church that and a

member of a church that was more local to them.

That's kind of what I thought the question was addressing and it is

actually

and it's kind of

complex pretty short an

hour away.

And Mathematical answer.

There's not a biblical answer saying this isn't what you must do.

I would say if you're going to do that in

the early church of human history.

Even many people in the world today if you live a mile away.

That's what.

And we can go 20 miles in 20.

It's not enough and you who've

made the decision to drive an hour or two and sometimes you're from the more.

Maybe much make a day of it on the Lord's Day.

There's an evening service.

They go to all day on.

I even have

anything to

go down the list one.

You've got nothing higher than a 30 probably time to drive

70 nearby and a 75 an hour away.

You know Jim you bring up a critical issue, which is that the local church is where there is flesh and

blood.

And I've heard people say well, I just watch Evangelistic programs on television or on the Internet and there

certainly is a place for that, but they do not.

Substitute for the body of Christ in the fullness in the full Outworking of flesh and blood do they?

Right.

I think there's I think it's

fascinating in Romans one that Paul writes to the Roman thing.

I'm eager to come and well to you.

That's right.

He's about to write Romans.

But another media which gave an

amazing gospel sermon in the 16 chapters.

But he said in the beginning during engagement with you that I desire

in terms of fellowship and reading this

Epistle won't do and then the

one another you can't greet one

another the Holy Kid.

Can't we propose you can't

thought has made us faith

and in so many different aspects.

We can't do what the Bible says were to be to one another and let's one physically together in community.

We have to go to a break right now and Glasgow you get to ask your question when we return.

Our email address again.

For those of you who want to join everyone else who has asked a question With a question of your own

our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Jim Neuheiser and more of our discussion on help.

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Hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched a TV and

occasional guest on Chris's show.

Think I think that's what it's called.

Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta.

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It is going to be a bang -up conference called the g3 conference

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Learn more at g3 conference .com g3 conference.

Thanks, Todd, I think.

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Welcome back.

And before I return to our discussion with Jim Neuheiser on help. I need a church I want

to announce that our friends at the Alliance of confessing evangelicals are sponsoring a conference

this weekend Friday and Saturday November 11th and 12th, and I will be

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This is going to be in Quakertown, Pennsylvania.

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If you'd like to join us on the air With a question of your own and by the way, Jim it reminded

me when you were talking about flesh and blood

Before the break that Watching an evangelistic program on TV every Sunday doesn't

substitute for being actually a part of the body of Christ it reminded me

of a Church one of the very first churches.

I started to regularly attend before I was born again a little bit of a Pentecostal

Church and it was a bit of a crazy little church and There was a lot in

that church that I would not recommend at all to be going on

in a Biblically sound congregation, but I can still remember something that I thought was very true

when the pastor of that church Was screaming at the top of his lungs standing on a pew

Excuse me Chastising his congregation for

basically Sending a lot of their money that should be going towards the

support of the local church through tithes and offerings that they were sending their money to

Jimmy Swagger and Jim and Tammy Faye Baker and all these other

major Pentecostal And charismatic ministries that were dominating the

airwaves in the 1980s.

I'm talking about way back when when those ministries were still.

Thriving.

He said Is Jimmy Swagger gonna be at your hospital bedside when you're sick or when

you're critically ill.

Is?

Jim and Tammy Faye Baker gonna be there praying at the funeral of your mommy and daddy and all those

things.

And he was very I think hitting it on the nail on the head with that even though I Had a lot of disagreement

with him on many other things.

There was truth of that.

Isn't there.

Sure, you know

in many

mega churches You could have under shepherds under the famous guy up there and some of those churches are good some aren't

who could still be doing that, but if somebody's just tuning in to

that as you recognize the doctrine and Some of the doctrine is the terrible ecclesiology the terrible doctrine of the church.

But the one of the things that that actually leads to another question is that there are a lot of people who give

excuses as to why.

They are not submitted to a local church if you're just watching TV, for instance.

You are not submitted to local elders who God has ordained to be in authority

over a flock and.

That also goes not only with people who just stay home Sunday morning and watch TV.

But it goes to people who are church hoppers who never commit anywhere.

It's true.

I didn't.

I will take those people and have

them read out loud in the Hebrews 13 17 joy.

And not

with

isn't my

idea.

Who will give

account for

your soul.

Which leader will give account or leaders will give account for your soul the day of judgment and if you stray.

Deliver you and

your family.

I'll say one other thing to that

though.

And that is this.

Oh, yeah.

The huge

problem

you

admonish

the

unknown you

you get to

know them.

But there's always an objective state in this kind of

limbo state.

Where there by the way Tyler.

I just wanted to let you know that we need your mailing address to send you out a free copy of help.

I need a church, but I'm sorry Laszlo.

You wanted to Jim what you're talking about.

There essentially is a trust issue, isn't it?

And you know, you rightfully said and help us, but some churches I

Hate to use the word, but they do use abuse sometimes authority and I think probably less of that than the other.

But I want to get to the title of your book because I think it's really telling it says help help.

Yeah, and it said I need a church.

I need a church and you know, Jim, isn't it true that when we are in? fellowship with brothers and

sisters when we're bonding with them when we're Moving along with them when

we're being trained and taught and held accountable There's a joy a satisfaction a blessing

that we receive so many people want to argue.

You know, they don't want to submit themselves because they want their independence.

They want to have it their way, but when we Bind ourselves to community to family

and we are family, aren't we?

There's a delight that comes from that and if you're a believer the Holy Spirit's put that hunger in you.

You crave to hear the word you crave to associate with brothers and sisters.

You take care of each other You lift each other up you correct each other.

There's a delight in that and people who withhold from that are.

Cutting themselves off and the hardest thing about

family and we love those people.

Lord willing if

everything weren't starting over and Trying to now it is help.

I need a church.

I delight and That is a great

blessing that God has designed.

I think it's interesting also when you have the pictures of judgment like in

remove the wicked man from among you and Similar in Matthew 18, but for a believer,

they'll be like the worst thing that could happen to you.

Yes, is that you've been put out of the church because that's your haven your your family.

It's your identity.

Right.

And some people have self excommunicated you can't excommunicate him because they've already put themselves out and

That's a horrible place to be.

And those people and among the people of God those people that do exactly that and and unfortunately there

there are ones that do.

How do you then approach them and draw them back into the warmth and.

The nurturing of the local assembly.

How do you do it as a

pastor

will challenge them based on Hebrews 13?

I mean some people

are one thing they don't like or

one or in the admonished the unruly category

the necessity of the

awesomeness not being able to distinguish between Gospel issues and well in

essence you're doing.

Newthetic counseling as it were because Newthetic is spirit -based and you're bringing a spirit of Christ.

Coming through the word and confronting them with it, aren't you?

The entertainment center or something and you gently bring them along with the word of

great I mean the greatest thing that can happen is along with the Word of God you actually break

them.

Amen so it's the

word and

it's also loving them, isn't it?

Absolutely.

Amen.

Pointing to your book if it's not too much trouble for you.

You mentioned that as you counsel people on what to look for in the church.

You've got ten criteria and you've made some subjective Evaluations.

Could you just broad brush over a believer?

Who's come to the Lord seeking to submit himself?

What should he use to judge?

Where should I commit my heart?

Well, one thing I tried to do in the book is it briefly identified that some of the things people think are most

important.

People want a certain scent of the words, but

those can be.

Preference matters among equal choices.

I'm not saying it's totally invalid that when you walk in just

smells like the gospel.

The gospel is

done for them Paul said.

I determined and

then extending that or they sound in doctrine on the fundamentals of the faith.

Authority inscriptions is not everybody's

gonna agree

on every detail of.

Last thing the major fundamentals is

it getting to worship?

You know, I have my

preference.

Entertainment.

A Lot of folks just want to be entertained when they're in a worship service.

How do you react to the prevalent?

Comments or defense.

That those who are church hoppers or perhaps are just not even attending any church.

Who's who basically think or accuse you when you talk to them about their need to

be a Member of a local church and under the authority of the elders who that

have been appointed there.

They'll they'll say that you're Basically guilty of what the the Roman Catholic Church at least

used to be guilty of today.

It's almost like you get the impression that anybody can go to heaven if you're a Roman Catholic, but.

But the the old -school Catholic idea that the church was the dispenser of grace and

that salvation was inseparable from the church and These people who are

mavericks Who don't believe in the need of a church basically say that you shouldn't be imposing on

them anything that is not required for salvation.

The fine

scription is wrong

for all

kinds of evil and it's a contradiction of the

gospel.

By loving

his people

that is

to make the

church fully

acknowledged.

So we have to teach the whole Council of God which justification by faith alone.

But it also Jesus said if you love me, you'll keep my commandments.

But this you know that we've come to know to keep his commandments and you can't be faithfully keeping the commandments of

Christ if you're not.

Loving his people in the local church.

Suppose the you hear the other common retort.

When you might say well you're forsaking the assembling of the brethren.

Which is a biblical Command that you must gather with the assembled

saints.

They'll say I do.

I go to First Baptist Church one week I go to the charismatic church down the road the other

week I go to the Presbyterian Church and the third week and they just bounce around and they think that they are in

keeping with the scriptures because they are Gathering with the Saints every Lord's

Day at least.

But that's not really what the scriptures are teaching on.

That's why I

go back

to

Hebrews 13 17

who keeps watch over your soul

not committed.

Well question your Pentecostal

guy asked is the

responsibility.

And if you turn that

around our brother in

Scotland made the point of what about.

Our responsibility if we are members that are that is limbs or parts of the body if you will.

Where are we being?

Actively.

Functional is with back to first Peter 410, which we quoted earlier.

Yeah, each one of us has been gifted by God as a vital part of the body church

is not stage.

You're coming as a member of a body to body

Community, which I think can be a helpful word.

Sure that you're saved to be part of a community not part of an audience.

And by the way, our friend in Kinross Scotland has a follow -up email attending a local

church.

When in London, I was a member of a church local to me, but no one else lived

anywhere near me.

The church compensated by having active area house groups, but we still need to make a

commitment.

It's very easy to deliberately join a church.

You are not local to and use the distance issue for not totally committing.

You can't be you can't beat.

Being built up on in the faith by good ministry sitting alongside and fellowshipping.

With like -minded believers.

Sorry if you already covered this.

But do people really understand why they need a church?

Do they understand what a church is and does?

The situation he might have been describing and I've seen this happen and like

some of them from all over and Everything

to smaller groups

you together in the middle of the week.

Because for many it's not practical to get back together.

So it is some distance.

Part of the commitment is I'm going to spend the money on the gas.

I'm gonna spend time getting back and forth because I think this church is worth it.

I'm gonna do what it takes in this church to be what I

need to be fine.

We have Jeff in Clinton Township, Michigan.

Who says how would you address a non -denominational church such as Calvary chapels?

Who have no membership requirement?

How is church discipline?

Implemented.

I'm not 100 % sure.

He's correct on the Calvary Chapel issue about Having no membership requirement but if you could comment on

that as a general question with with churches in general, it might not have the.

Yeah, a general Calvary chapels are very big in Southern, California where I came from and a general.

Distinctive of the Calvary's is they're kind of an unchurch where they don't have membership.

Like some Calvary's would have you

sign something.

She was a member and they discipline you as a member and you get engaged as a member.

So it's a de facto membership without a formal formalizing it

less than ideal.

But I think people can be to them without formal

membership.

There are even a few churches like that who have been shifting to make it more formal.

To whom you will give a camp for

without formal membership to have that although I think it's not ideal.

Same thing with the church and their being

with the Bible says they

need to be

even.

Similar to that.

The very

limited level sometimes just cheered by the leaders and you have the audience coming and

that is all the disadvantages.

We've been talking about by the way, Jeff.

Thank you for Submitting a question and thank you also for giving us your mailing address already.

Expect a copy of the book.

Help.

I need a church in the mail from Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service Within a week or so.

And I know one way that you could Definitely get under church discipline in the Calvary Chapel is just make it very well known that you're a

Calvinist.

And I'm only kid.

I do have friends in Calvary Chapel but And I have some brothers in Christ

that I really love and really respect in the Calvary Chapel movement.

But I think that there is a little bit of Double -speak

when it comes to the fact that they're not a denomination and that kind of a thing because Yeah, I

know pastors who you know were removed from their pastorate because of their adopting reform

theology and things like.

Good.

I'm sorry something.

I want to say something for the Calvary Chapel and that is in our area and southern.

That's right.

That's right

later.

I'm thankful and I think also the Calvary is one

thing for theology and I would

also say long -term make you better

in terms

of Recognizing they need to address at

least in some circles a little more freedom, you

know.

Let me ask you something else, which I've encountered in some areas.

Geographical areas.

Good Bible -believing churches are not necessarily easy to find and sometimes that's an excuse,

but sometimes it's a reality and some folks choose then to

Worship in home churches.

What do you think is the role of a home church?

Is it legitimate?

Should it be a precursor to something else or is it too often an excuse for those difficult people?

Who want to just have it their way.

Confusion between the institution of the family and the institution of the church.

It has find

anybody they

can get along with.

Yeah, because they have to do to

the glory of God.

They're going to be

some people live together in the family of God in the church.

I think again, sometimes it's the the maverick so sometimes

there's the neglect the play cushion and

Sometimes it's just somebody who's ornery.

A lot of people who are frustrated pastor wannabes who?

Will make them only now.

Having said that maybe there's somebody else within

Point of the early church met in.

Holmes.

Holmes isn't the problem, but it's a and sometimes it's confusing your family with the church.

And there we have to go to our final break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Jim Neuheiser on help I need a church

our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns.

And if you just tuned us in the guest for the full two hours today with a little less than a half hour to go.

Is Jim Neuheiser.

We have been discussing his booklet help.

I need a church and if you'd like to ask Jim a question of your own.

Our email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Please include your first name city and state and country of residence.

If you live outside of the USA and we do have.

CJ and Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.

Who wants to know what advice you have to give to people who have been in cults and other?

False religions that have totally made them terrified to commit themselves to any

local congregation.

Yeah, the problem with a lot of the cults is their counterfeit churches.

Not

just

in

their

doctrine, but

what

a great thing.

It would be

that

something wonderful.

Satan is a liar thing that God

has made.

Yeah, I've

often reminded people that Judas was one of the Twelve Apostles and.

We shouldn't reject Jesus because of Judas.

And Just because there are horrible churches even churches that are are

perhaps on paper theologically and doctrinally Orthodox that are horrible churches because of the

abuses that go on and Just because they exist doesn't mean that all churches

are like that.

And On top of that in the other extreme if you have actually entered into a perfect church

Somebody better check your pulse because that means you've died.

And But.

And of course, I'm not trying to be glib because there are people whose lives have been just put been put through nightmarish

Horrible situations not only with with cultic false doctrine, but even with

pastors who have molested their children or their their spouses or Were themselves

or a whole host of things.

But obviously the Humility is a big issue here because

Even in in the midst of the worst nightmare that have could have occurred in a church It doesn't give

somebody a license to disobey Christ in his word.

One

thing we

actually do

comes

you may have

a church with only in

a

Christlike

way.

Roslo, I think that you had a question that you wanted to ask.

Well, I did.

You said something that I think it's critical.

We need discernment and and I'll get to that in a moment.

But sometimes we've got to really be prepared.

To go to a place even if it's distant even to a point where we may have to move.

And I'm thinking of Chris here.

He lived on Long Island and after circumstances Came into play.

He chose to come to Carlisle to be under good teaching and under good preaching and we have people that have attended

our church.

And I'm not lifting up our church, but have attended good churches.

Often at great, you know cost in terms of travel.

And I even know people and I know you do too Jim that have moved changed jobs so they could

be under sound teaching and not everyone's.

Not everyone's able to do that but Seek first his kingdom and his righteousness and all these other things will sort out won't

they?

Yeah, I

agree.

And I think

yeah, and there where you may

go the weather.

They seem like

they would be strong possibilities for us and you may find yourself in a situation I mean some people move just get away from bad

weather.

How much more.

If you're in an isolated place and you can't find a church where your family is thriving.

Then, you know, sometimes people bad one for career

reasons or whatever, you know,

they've made that decision.

How much do I compromise on my doctrinal standards to be a part of this

people ought to think seriously about?

Now if there's a new believer a young believer who's got a burden to submit himself.

And I know you've given a checklist in your book on criteria

there.

I.

And study what scripture says about Fellowship.

Sometimes it's not easy to discern what scripture says.

There's much there and you've got to go through it and Certainly your book would help but I think there's

a large place for prayer.

And think about this Jim and tell me if you agree.

The Lord saves us one by one but he saves us unto the kingdom and it's in that corporate body that we

glorify God through public worship and He wants us to be part of the kingdom.

Through the outworking of a local assembly.

Would he not provide one if we're truly seeking.

It and.

Should we not a burden our hearts and just pour out our our desires to him.

Lord bring us to a rightful fellowship.

Recent months here in Charlotte.

It's give me wisdom.

I'm going to make

among.

Now you mentioned

a young Christian.

Part of what I would ask is well If he's a young Christian if the Lord used some individual bring him to faith.

In terms of looking for a church another thing I would mention that's a little more detailed than

my Little mini book is Wayne Mack and Dave Swavely of a

book

called life in the fall

expounding the ten things John

Crott

says the treatments in

mind that would help somebody who's wrestling with Chris.

What caused you to come to Carlisle?

Well, my wife passed away in 2011 and I found that the

Surroundings where I was living were causing deep depression.

I knew that I just needed to change of location a change of surroundings and I

Wanted to definitely move to a place where I knew that there was a biblically sound church

I happen to be so in love with the doctrines of grace.

I don't think that I could have Voluntarily moved to a place where I didn't know that there was a solid reformed

Baptist Church nearby.

And I also had some Christian friends that I already had known from years

past that live in Carlisle or near Carlisle and so that was

Basically the twofold reasons that I chose this was oh I forgot one of the most important reasons of all

is that the rent That I'm paying in my apartment.

You could not live in a crack house on Long Island for the the cost of rent that I'm paying and

I'm living in a beautiful 19th century Presbyterian parsonage the the

parsonage of George Norcross in the 19th century pastor of the Second Presbyterian Church in Carlisle

from 1860s to the early 1900s and that is the home of iron sharpens iron

radio studio.

So, but you had a real need for church, didn't you?

Yes.

This is real for you.

Yes, in fact as one who has been personally under church discipline, I

realized the enormous value of discipline because of I unfortunately

years ago had slipped back into the sin of drunkenness and

Addiction to alcohol abuse of alcohol and I realized that if it were not for Biblical

church discipline with love as the motivation and restoration as the motivation I might

be dead right now.

And so I do praise God for that and I don't shy away from Mentioning

that on the air because I know that there are a lot of people who are probably terrified

About coming out of the darkness and and revealing to their elders

what kind of problems that they're battling with especially involving sin and

so therefore I'm just encouraging people that Church discipline does not need to be the end of the

road for anybody, especially if you Submit yourself to the

the biblical counsel and discipline of the elders where God has placed you and I want to

also make sure that before we run out of time Jim that I give you

Four or five minutes to really unburden your heart to make sure that what you most want etched in the hearts and

minds of our listeners is Spoken to them before we run out of time because I

also definitely want to give your contact information and so on.

So I'll give you the floor for the next five minutes.

Well telling

them to

watch

themselves

what

they fall into error accountable, but then telling them

To keep watch of

Ephesus the

flock they will church in Ephesus

with his membership.

But that flock doesn't belong to them.

Once you

many gifts in the

book of

using the

gift that God

with maybe

People and

we're not going to

talk about we're going to

talk about what little

matter for return.

Thank you for that and.

You know, there are people who?

Go to a church for reasons that would not be primary reasons

for instance.

There are those who might be a gifted musician.

They might be a gifted singer.

They might be gifted in some way.

Where they're they don't feel like they're being used to use these gifts to the

glory of God publicly in the corporate worship or in the body, so they

prefer or select to.

Go to a church and attach themselves to a church that they know is

theologically inferior.

Might even be in their opinion Somewhat on the heretical side on certain issues, but they

choose to go there.

They will say I'm using my gifts and I'm also going to be a light to

these people and God willing down the road guide them Through my influence

into deeper truth.

Is that do you think that that is wise?

To take that tactic on selecting a church.

I'm going to use the

quantifying thing again that

full -time choir person.

Don't attend a church, but you'd be ashamed to bring your fellow Christian

friends

to

ideal.

And there's one that's you know, again, if you've got 80 that

really wants you or needs you I think you're free to choose a church that isn't perfect doctrinally in your

view.

But sound on the fundamentals because you think you can be more useful in the other place.

They're not even clear on the if you

can't and get unsafe since

you need a church to the church you're attending.

Don't even think about it.

Keep looking.

Now, would you recommend this booklet that you have written or this mini book?

For instance when people are passing out tracks, they're evangelizing Individuals that are

lost or they're not even certain where they stand before God

in addition to an evangelism evangelism tract Or other material that has the

gospel in it wouldn't this be a good accompaniment to instill upon

people that that you can't be just someone.

If you're going to be obedient to Christ, you can't just go off into the woods and Meditate

alone and think that that is acceptable to God or pleasing to God.

You need to be a part of a local church in addition to Just experiencing the

blessing of salvation.

One of the things that I know about Membership, it is it's also a guardrail.

It's not perfect, but it is a guardrail to prevent

to help prevent people from sliding back into The sinful behaviors that they

may have been addicted to or plagued with.

And Jim.

Are you still there?

I had a feeling that Jim got disconnected somehow so before

I'm gonna give Jim the opportunity to call back.

Hopefully Jim will be able to call back before we end the program.

I'm gonna make sure that I Give Jim's website.

Well, actually Shepherd Press's website.

Shepherd Press's website where you can order the book.

Jim are you back?

Yep.

I don't know what happened there.

No idea.

That was strange.

But anyway, I just I was just giving the the website for Shepherd Press for those who want to order the book.

Which is coming up on my screen.

It's shepherdpress .com.

Shepherdpress .com if anybody wants to order this book, it's a book that is so inexpensive.

You could really afford your church really stock up on a case or more of this book

but if you could Respond to what I was saying I was saying that the church is also a

guardrail not a perfect guardrail or an infallible one but as a guardrail that helps

prevent people from sliding back into Wicked behaviors that had

enslaved them in the past.

Yeah, and

it's great

the kind

of

thing I hope churches people to see the

visitors to see the need to commit to a local church

you with the importance of commitment to a local church the blessings and then something to look for.

Bill and I already gave the.

Website for Shepherd Press.

Do you have any other contact information that you care to give?

There's tremendous amount of free counseling resources on ibcd .org

putting a lot of my materials and All the shepherds who

have a gospel presentation in them, you know, whatever subject I've written.

Others on anger Biblical change, but the gospel is always present as the foundation for everything.

We're teaching.

And one of the things that That a lot of

people have complained about is that they will say look I am Living on poverty

level.

But I know I need some biblical counseling and when they investigate

Seeing a biblical counselor or a Christian counselor. They find out that it's going to cost much more

Than they could possibly afford.

What advice do you have for individuals like that?

Shepherds the sheep and they will need help

outside of if you

can't afford to pay to be done in the local church and Shepherds should

shepherd sheep and if something's beyond their experience centers like

I'd be command out

much compared

to the supply.

Well, once again, I do want to repeat the Shepherd Press website for those

of you who would like to get a hold of this booklet or mini book or Better

yet get a case of them or more for your church.

Perhaps you are a pastor who is listening or you are a deacon or you're just an active

member.

And you want to give your church a good gift or something that they should have in their narthex or lobby.

I go to Shepherd Press comm Shepherd Press comm and

You'll not only find that book, but you'll find a whole host of other things and this again.

It was this this book that we have highlighted today is help.

I need a church by Jim Neuheiser.

I thank you so much for being our guest today Jim and Laszlo pastoral.

Thank you so much for spending the time with me today as my co -host.

I appreciate it.

It's been a blessing and I do also I do also want to give the website for the

congregation where Laszlo and I are members as Grace Baptist Carlisle org Grace

Baptist Carlisle c -a -r -l -i -s -l -e Org.

I want to thank everybody who listened today especially those who took the time to write in questions for our guest

Jim Neuheiser and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives.

Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior Than you are a sinner

and always remember another thing that no matter who wins this presidential election Christ is always on

the throne.