Live Q&A Session with Matt Slick, 10/29/2020, 9PM EST

CARM

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:00

All right All right now here's another experiment

00:06

I've tried this a couple of times before in the past and We'll see how it works tonight. I really don't expect much difference but I Opened this up to everybody and I'm hoping that people will want to Participate in a live discussion thing.

00:24

One of the things I'm thinking about doing occasionally is to Do this on a regular basis, maybe

00:31

Wednesday night and just do something like this so people can call in and get

00:38

Put on YouTube and Facebook, we've got people watching and As you can see and I guess you're listening.

00:46

We have some people who? You know are watching if you want to participate you have a question you have a comment

00:53

And you want to ask anything all you got to do is, you know, just type in the text and I'll see it Or you can come into the room and the

01:01

URL all the information is there So the reason I I was doing this tonight is because on the

01:08

CARM discussion boards There was some you know, there's

01:16

Arminianism versus Calvinism and As it's pretty typical the

01:21

Arminians don't really Represent Calvinism very well, and they think they do and they speak

01:27

Authoritatively when you're missing it here. You're missing it there. I go to correct them, you know gently

01:32

So no, it's not a position or this is that you forgot this, you know, they don't learn and I thought okay What's I think is better is to?

01:41

We'll do this okay inside of extreme yard and So what

01:47

I would I'll say to them, you know, I say well if you wanna do this better Just have a discussion with me. So I offered to have people

01:55

The Arminians to come in and discuss the issue of Performed Theology so that's what

02:01

I wanted to do and It you know, this people say we'll be interested and this is what's happened.

02:08

It's the third time I've done this in like six months. I've offered people the opportunity to be able to To come in and talk

02:19

Facebook YouTube and live here in the In the stream yard room

02:27

Yeah streamer doing a couple three things or get a little distracted So I put this up a few days ago and people said they were interested and we'll see

02:33

I'm hoping some of the anti Calvinist Come in. Yeah do is Is just open up to everybody so they have questions or comments we could talk and that's what

02:42

I'm doing right now So if anybody is there? Yeah, I have a couple of questions Okay I'm in.

02:49

Okay, so I don't want you. I know that you know, I'm Catholic and I am Ryan You're Kayla I'm Catholic and I don't want to like be anti Calvinist because I respect them

02:59

But I have a couple of questions and specifically with your of the scripture You do a good job of a talking

03:07

Catholicism I don't mean this as a derogatory comment, but I haven't ever seen you give a response to how you believe

03:15

Not how you refute the Catholic position, but how you believe we got the Bible without invoking any

03:22

External source. I would like to hear one defense and I don't mean this is an attack That's not my position.

03:27

So I'm not gonna defend it Okay So can you then articulate your position on how we got the Bible without invoking any external authority that will be called the church?

03:36

Any kind not just guess. No. No. Well, wait, wait, wait. Wait. I'm gonna tell you is this That God worked through his sovereign will to give the inspired scriptures of the

03:45

Jews The church didn't give us the Old Testament God did through the Jews and then

03:51

God through the Apostles and the the believers recognized the Word of God in the

03:56

New Testament and then it was codified and recognized through councils of Christians different times different ways and That's that's it.

04:05

That's my position But did those people who codified by it have any authority to codify it it's not an issue of authority

04:13

See you Catholics make this mistake all the time. What authority do you have?

04:19

What makes you think we have to have authority? Where'd you get that? Do you think that any person has equipped to room to?

04:25

Where'd you get the idea that we need authority? That's the question. Well, it seems to be definitional if someone Definitional it was definitional that we don't need any church authority.

04:36

I Didn't mention church. I said said just said any kind of authority to codify the books, right?

04:42

I mean you admit that I don't have that authority to say that something belongs or doesn't No, no, no.

04:47

No, it's it's you're not getting it. You're not good. I'm saying Catholics always do this. They don't listen

04:52

They don't really think through the issue. It's not an issue of authority We don't it's not an issue of authority

04:59

It's an issue of the sheep those who are regenerate recognizing the

05:05

Word of God This was this occurred in churches. It occurred among Christians. It occurred among councils.

05:12

That's what happened There was no issue of authority because if you're gonna say they had to have authority, I'm gonna say well

05:17

Where'd they get their authority from? Do these is it self -appointed if they got it from God? Well, how do you know they got it from God because you said so But is there some some rainbow in the sky that says look you've got authority to do this.

05:31

No, nothing like that The Catholics asked the wrong questions. Okay, but here's what my problem is with the view of just scripture alone

05:42

Ultimately, for example when it comes You know, I just answered you and then you just dismiss it and go on what did

05:50

I dismiss? Where do you get the idea that we need authority to be able to recognize what

05:55

God's Word is? Because otherwise people would always have disagreements

06:04

Okay, where do we need authority in order to not because you have a reason that they you know that they might have disagreements

06:10

That's not an issue of authority What makes you think that we have to have somebody's authority in order to recognize

06:15

God's Word? Did the church recognize the scripture and give it authority of the Old Testament? No Tatively defined what was all right, but it wasn't the church that gave us the

06:27

Old Testament now was it? No, it was other authoritative people what authoritative people the

06:33

Jews you said it the chosen people Which Jews? The twelve tribes who recognized those books the twelve tribes recognize those books

06:43

So you saying then that all the Jews recognize them or some of them did or didn't we don't even know just so, you know

06:49

No, I know exactly how they they recognized it But it must have been some authoritative people.

06:55

It wasn't just everybody like we agreed, right? so Presumably God imbued some people with authority to recognize where other people were mistaken because you for example

07:05

Believe that Catholics are mistaken in recognizing Tobit as book So presumably they don't have the authority to say that those books are in so who has that's my question just saying they don't

07:17

Sure, but sure God does God is the one Jesus is God in flesh and Luke in Luke 1151

07:25

Jesus says from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah. It was a first and last books of the Old Testament He rejected the Apocrypha at that point.

07:31

He said the law the prophets and the Psalms are about him He talked about Luke 24 44. He didn't recognize the

07:37

Apocrypha So we shouldn't Jesus have authority by the nature of who he was. Why did he exclude the

07:42

Apocrypha? but would you say that the humans had a

07:48

Role to play in recognizing the books. Why did Jesus? Reject the

07:53

Apocrypha, I presumably he was referencing the Pharisee canon because that's the people he was talking with He said all that is written about me in the law the prophets and the

08:03

Psalms So he was saying that the law and the prophets and the Psalms are about him. Sure.

08:09

We agree with it. All right It says in Luke 24 44. He said to them to the

08:15

Jews These are my words Which I spoke to you while I was still with you That all things which were written about me and the law of Moses the prophets and the

08:24

Psalms must be fulfilled He excluded the Apocrypha, didn't he? Well, yeah from that statement.

08:31

He did Yes, he also excluded the book of Revelation from that statement, right? No, no, no.

08:36

No the law the prophets and the Psalms are the Old Testament It's the Old Testament canon.

08:42

It's the Old Testament back then, right? The Old Testament only came after Old Testament was known by the time

08:48

Jesus was there It was called the Bible. It wasn't called. Oh, wow. Okay. Look the

08:55

Old Testament the Old Testament Jesus quoted the law the prophets and the

09:00

Psalms in Luke 24 44. He excluded the Apocrypha Where does the

09:07

Catholic Church get its authority to include the Apocrypha when Jesus himself excluded it from God?

09:16

Well, if it gets it from God Then it better act like it got it from God and it certainly doesn't because it teaches so many heresies

09:22

The question I'm sitting here to ask you is why did Jesus himself exclude the

09:28

Apocrypha? He excluded it in this statement He says all that's written about me in the law the prophets and the

09:35

Psalms must be fulfilled He knows what was about him. He knows the

09:40

Holy Spirit the prophets everything bears witness of him He did not include the Apocrypha.

09:46

He excluded it He knew about it. He excluded it. He also said in Luke 1151 for the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah Who was killed between the altar the house of God and what he was saying is was from Genesis to Chronicles But in that time they have the same books that we do now in the

10:05

Old Testament It's just the arrangement was different and Chronicles was the last book like our Malachi's the last book

10:10

So he was saying from the first to the last book of the Old Testament. That's what he was saying He excluded the

10:16

Apocrypha So where's the Roman Catholic Church get off? including it

10:22

Well from the same place we got when we included Revelation in the Bible, even though Jesus excluded it Did Jesus exclude it?

10:29

Yes, he said so was he? Was he what so when he said from the book from Abel to Zechariah?

10:35

He's talking Old Testament when he says law the prophets of the Psalms is talking Old Testament Well, he's talking about what was the

10:41

Bible then there was no such thing as the Old Testament But either way take your right hand and put it in front of your face

10:47

Yeah, I know what you're gonna say slap yourself, but I was on the head being ridiculous All you're trying to do is support the

10:53

Roman Catholic Church. Sure. I agree with that But this is what I didn't want to I didn't want this to turn into Catholicism where I want to hear you're asked

11:02

I did but what I'm looking for is What's your version like we understand this is ours and you think it's ridiculous and that's fine

11:11

But can we hear an alternative and an alternative? I don't mean saying God did it because everybody every sect believes

11:17

God did it What's the means by which he accomplished and if you're gonna say that it's through some people then

11:22

I'm asking Why don't you recognize the authority of these people? He used the Christian Church Exactly.

11:29

So Where is that church? Okay, whatever it was wrong question wrong question.

11:35

All right. What is the church? group of believers

11:41

What is the church Group of saved believers or believers The word church

11:47

Ecclesia is used in several different contexts, right? Sure, of course.

11:53

Okay, it's used in several different contexts. Let me do this word study on church

12:00

On karma. I Hope I'm not taking anybody else's time because no one else's is is in the room.

12:07

All right That's waiting down I can see and so the church grid what you do a karmic or church hyphen grid, right?

12:16

It's use of the body of Christ a gathering of people local churches people of God ecclesiastical body

12:22

And you say the church what you mean is the Roman Catholic Church You have to demonstrate that the

12:27

Roman Catholic Church is the true church with the authority of Christ Before you can even begin to ask that question.

12:33

Okay, I won't ask that but whatever church you have in mind, where is it? It's not a church

12:39

See, look, it says the local church, right if he refuses to listen to them tell it to the church Which church is he talking about in Matthew 18 17 the

12:47

Christian Church the Christian Church the local church Was it was there a Pope at that point?

12:53

No, not at that point. Was there a magisterium at that point? Yeah. No, no, there wasn't no don't

13:00

Magisterium, so if there was no magisterium, I don't understand then how do you believe that Apostles wrote inspired by God?

13:06

What's that? Hold on. There was no magisterium and Jesus is saying tell it to the church So which church is he talking about the

13:12

Christian one? Which Christian Church? The only one that Jesus founded

13:17

Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death and on that day of persecution began against the church

13:22

In Jerusalem, yes, and they were all scattered that the true church that would be the Jerusalem Diocese as we call it the

13:30

Jerusalem Diocese What you're doing is you're imposing your Catholic view on the text, okay, it doesn't say that but that's what it has to mean

13:38

According to your Catholicism. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. I understand that I understand but what I'm saying is it seems to be like we are in agreement to a certain point and then

13:48

You kind of stop to say it's not Catholic. It's not I'm willing to entertain that argument say it's not

13:54

Catholic agree with you But then I want to ask you where is that church and and just saying it's not

13:59

Catholic doesn't which church That Christian Church, which is referenced in those texts. We read together.

14:05

Wait a minute What about Acts 11 26 and for an entire year they met with the church and oh

14:11

They were in Antioch and when they found him he brought him to Antioch and the entire year they met with the church

14:16

Where is that church? It was in Antioch I get it, but that church is presumably the same church that was in Jerusalem teaching the same doctrine, right?

14:26

No, there was a church in Antioch. There was a church in Jerusalem and how were they unified were they not unified?

14:34

There was a church in Antioch. There was a church in Jerusalem, and that's what we call diocese now

14:40

I'm asking you where does it say diocese? Where does it say say it's diocese where? Well, the term is something we termed right to make it clearer

14:49

But what I'm saying is you do agree that the Antioch Church and Jerusalem Church were unified, right?

14:54

Even though they were just they were unified. They certainly weren't teaching Roman Catholic heresy It looks like it acts 1541 and he was traveling through Syria and Cilicia strengthening the churches

15:07

So use different churches. That's how that's that's how that's one of the main ways that this at the word church is used

15:15

So so you don't agree that those churches were unified. I Didn't say there were or weren't unified. I'm trying to show you something

15:21

Romans 16 1 Paul Phoebe who was a servant of the church, which is that centurion?

15:27

What is he there are different ways in which the word church is used. It's use of the body of Christ This is upon this rock.

15:33

I'll build my church It could be said And the Lord added to the church daily

15:40

Okay. Okay. So acts 15 is the great best example. Let me ask you the question. Sorry I want to ask you the question

15:48

I understand that you also want to ask me questions and I for the sake of this argument I'm willing to concede that Catholicism is

15:54

Harris. So I don't agree with it, but I I'm willing of course, it's Harris I can prove it. Okay. I I'm not trying to be hostile because I've told you before I respect

16:01

Baptist. Nope. Sorry, Presbyterian. I don't respect that Just Presbyterian. I'm joking. But look in Acts 15 the church

16:11

Makes a decision presumably you believe this is an infallible decision to not allow the Judaizer Harris, right now

16:17

I want to I didn't say I believe it was infallible. You don't Didn't say you hear what

16:24

I say. Sorry. Sorry. I said I did not say it was infallible It doesn't mean I agree it was or disagree.

16:29

It was Okay, I think it was but fine. Let's let's put that aside. They came and made the decision now

16:36

I want to ask you that church that existed then you want to call it the

16:41

Christian Church. I'm fine with it Your body of believers. I'm fine with it, but a certain Structure or an association of loose structures with elders bishops and Apostles and Apostles, of course no longer are with us

16:55

You know may they rest in peace But the elders at least are right or at least elders are supposed to be

17:02

I believe you're an ordained elder as well So now I want to ask you where is that church that church the body that had the authority to make a decision

17:12

Well, I just gave you an example the one x15 church, yes those people died So that church ended died out that church in Jerusalem doesn't exist right now

17:23

So that church died out that church does not exist right now in Jerusalem. Does it so what was the point of?

17:31

Continuing the faith if the church was to die It didn't say what do we mean by the church the entire church or that particular church?

17:38

Well the church that had the ability to make decisions No, it didn't have the church wasn't the thing that had ability.

17:45

It was the people who were the disciples and the elders Okay, so that you know, they said what they said therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the

17:57

Gentiles and that we write to Them and they abstain from things contaminated by idols and fornication and from what is strangled and from blood

18:05

Yeah, so the Jerusalem Council said don't drink blood

18:12

Correct guys Catholic Church does it? Oops? Obviously the Catholic Church is wrong

18:20

But Matt this isn't addressing the question of where that church is The church I just told you that church there does not exist anymore.

18:28

So it died out Why don't you want to say that it died out? I'm not see it died out because I don't know what that means

18:34

We say died out that it's seized existing once the last member of it died. I just said it's see it's not there anymore

18:40

It's gone prevailed against which church His church. No, you don't understand what you're doing.

18:47

You're equivocating There are different definitions of the word church. There's a local body.

18:52

There's a universal church You are equivocating the local church in Acts 15 is gone

18:59

Then I say then what you'll do is you'll equivocate you'll say well then does that mean all the whole church is gone? No, it means the local body in Jerusalem.

19:08

That particular church is gone That's why it says Apostles and brethren who are elders to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia So there's different local churches if a local church

19:21

Disappears, it doesn't mean that the Christian Church is gone. They're different The Christian Church means the whole body

19:28

The local church means an individual congregation the word church is applied in both sense Do you have to be careful how you use the term?

19:35

Do you have Acts 15 open in front of you? Yes, can you read verse 22? 22 then it seemed good to the

19:43

Apostles and the elders with the whole church Just a second. What does the whole church mean?

19:48

Does that mean the local church right there? What just the Jerusalem one? Yeah, yes, because you know why?

19:53

Why because Antioch Syria Cilicia were many many days travel away

20:01

So are you saying then that the church right there in Jerusalem was able to get all this information out, you know cell phone

20:09

What they had Pony Express? But you're not with the local church You're saying that this decision was only affecting the local

20:17

Jerusalem Church They said this you said the whole church you want me to read the word whole church

20:23

Do you want to say that the whole church is all the congregations? I'm gonna ask you every Every biases, how did they get the information to every church all over the

20:32

Mediterranean area? Because their elders were gathered together in one place Where's it say that reads the beginning here?

20:40

It is. Let me let me certain people came down for The church send them on their way and okay

20:46

So here it is when they were welcomed by the church then the Apostles and elders meant to consider this question verse

20:53

Just second. Let me take a look at the whole thing So you're assuming the

21:00

Representatives of every single body of local church all over the Mediterranean area came to Jerusalem You got to you got to show me that in the scriptures.

21:12

Let me see Okay, so so here it is, right?

21:19

Paul and Barnabas were in sharp dispute When they met people in Antioch, that's verse 1, right?

21:27

Here it is certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and we're teaching the believers this heresy This brought

21:33

Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them So Paul and Barnabas were appointed along with some other believers to go up to Jerusalem from Antioch So this is the

21:40

Antioch what we would call diocese, but if you don't want to use that word Antioch local church Sending Paul and Barnabas along with some other believers to go up to Jerusalem To see the

21:51

Apostles and the elders about this question the church sent them on their way and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria They told how the

21:58

Gentiles had been converted So so here's an example of one local church Sending to Judea their local elders to meet with the

22:07

Apostles and the elders in the center to consider this So in this context the whole church does refer to at least

22:13

Judea and Antioch and if these were the key Foundations because Antioch is where they were called Christians and Jerusalem is where the

22:20

Christ died So this would be like two main diocese. This would be like our equivalent of Constantinople in Rome, right?

22:26

So I don't see how you can maintain that This is just a Jerusalem local church when it clearly says that they couldn't agree locally

22:34

So they sent everybody to agree on the highest level. Am I reading it wrong?

22:40

Yes Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren Unless you're circumcised, so they're false teachers from Judea.

22:48

Yeah, and Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them the brethren

22:54

Determined that Paul and Barnabas and some of the others of them should go to Jerusalem to the

22:59

Apostles and elders concerning this issue Okay, therefore being sent on their way by the church.

23:04

They were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria Describing in detail the conversion of the

23:10

Gentiles and were bringing great joy to all the brethren When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the

23:17

Apostles and the elders now Where does it say that representatives of all these different local churches were there?

23:23

Okay? so I Mean, it doesn't say that that way of course not but it doesn't say it at all

23:29

It just says they went through different areas and informed what's what about the teaching and stuff and that was it

23:35

Can you read verse third again verse verse three, yeah

23:42

Therefore being sent on their way by the church Just stop right there. What's the church right there? I Don't know.

23:48

I didn't read the context to see that's the Church of Antioch sending them to the Church of Jerusalem Okay, let's go with that.

23:54

So the Church of Antioch sent them to Jerusalem and So they passed through both

23:59

Phoenicia and Samaria Just second so by admitting this the whole church would refer to the two

24:06

Greatest points right because remember Jerusalem is where Christianity was born and Antioch is where they were actually called

24:11

Christians So you're agreeing that the whole church in verse whatever it was when I read it refers to at least two

24:18

Greatest points of Christianity at that point, right? Well, it says being sent on their way by the church by the

24:24

Antiochian local body So so when the Jerusalem yes, so when the

24:30

Jerusalem local body made the decision did this affect the Antiochian They sent him. He just said Paul Barnabas go take a look.

24:36

Why? Because Paul and Barnabas needed to go take a look to determine what was going on because of the false teaching and would this

24:44

That's right. No false teaching in the decision of the Jerusalem Council. Would it affect the Antioch local church?

24:50

Probably ultimately so where is why why but why? Because who was there

24:58

Paul and Barnabas the Apostles and the elders were there in Jerusalem.

25:04

So this is what I'm asking. Where is that church that had this authority? Why did wait second the

25:09

Apostles and the elders? Would you agree that the Apostles and the elders there are the ones who gave that church its authority in Jerusalem?

25:16

Yeah Good. Where are the Apostles today? Apostles have died passed away.

25:22

So then that authority doesn't exist anymore well Well, what why did

25:28

Paul have people like Timothy then if that authority was about to be ceased? What was the point of instructing him?

25:34

How do I point out? wait, wait a Apostolic authority is gone. Okay, but the elders are still there, right?

25:41

Well, hold on. Would you agree apostolic authority is gone? Well in that sense, yeah that that the

25:46

Apostles are good So they don't that's that means the authority of the Apostles is not for today.

25:52

Is it? Yeah, it's not like it's not what Mormons teach that Apostles are still here.

25:58

I understand what I'm a Catholicism So the apostolic authority is not not here today It's not but then

26:05

I wouldn't want to equivocate on the word because apostolic authority can refer to for example The Apostles we know who the

26:12

Apostles were they've died Because when they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the

26:18

Apostles and the elders That's where the Apostles were were in Jerusalem. Apostles passed away.

26:23

Elders are still here, right? Yes So, where is it? Where is that church the

26:29

Apostles and the elders so that church is gone, isn't it? Well, not if the elders are still here.

26:35

No that church in Jerusalem is gone Sure that particular those particular people are gone

26:47

But not that the whole church right because the whole church has like for example You don't you agree with their judgment right what they made in Acts 15

26:58

Sorry setting up a debate someone just talked about somebody else. Okay. Well, I'm sorry I I don't want to occupy the time if you no, no, it's nobody else is here.

27:05

It's just that Someone trying to set up a debate with somebody else something else. Okay, it's fine

27:12

I mean, I I don't mean to take up with the whole time of the Q &A. It was easy. I just typed it in Good Okay debating

27:21

Romans 9 with a heretic Alright, so look you're not gonna win this one because what you want to say what you want you're doing is equivocated

27:28

Do you want equivocated? Okay, then I'll just move on to the next topic that I do.

27:34

You know what equivocation is I do What is it? Well, it's using one term in one sense and then using it in another sense and pretending they are used in the same sense, right?

27:44

Okay, where a word changes meaning in different usages. Yeah. All right, and so you transfer the usages in places

27:49

Yeah you have to define what you mean by church and you have to show me from the scriptures that your Definition applies to any particular situation that you use it because this is critical.

27:59

This isn't just me being difficult It's critical because the Roman Catholic Church claims to be the true church

28:04

Which I think is a demonic piece of crap heresy I hate the Roman Catholic Church's false doctrines that leads people to eternal damnation.

28:12

I do and So that you had to prove to me from Scripture That this is the case when the

28:20

Jerusalem local body Ceased to exist. It doesn't mean that the body of Christ ceased to exist because the body of Christ is called the church

28:30

But that's what the church is that so would you say the church at large well Then you would mean the

28:35

Christian corpus all over the place I don't have any problem if you say the church at large the whole church everywhere no problem, which is the body of Christ and it's consisting of Elders and it was a consisting of Apostles then the

28:50

Apostles died then it's just elders and pastors and teachers And so Here's you asked me to justify it from scriptures

28:59

Romans 16 16 greet one another with a holy kiss all the churches of Christ Send greetings all the individual churches the local bodies send greetings great

29:09

So where are they are all of them gone? Well, I've been to the church in Smyrna in Ephesus I've been to Laodicea I've been to the seven churches all of them and they're not there.

29:23

I've been to the locations Colossae have been there not there So you are arguing that the whole

29:32

Christian Church that was supposed to greet each other is not referring to people who?

29:38

Who would continue in the faith, but just refers to local people alive at the time What context you're talking about?

29:45

I said I've been to those local those locations. I've been to them I've stood on the very hill the tell of The Colossian Church.

29:55

I've been to Smyrna Okay, I've been to Laodicea. I walked among the ruins.

30:01

I've been to Ephesus. I walked the same road Paul the Apostle walked So there so if you don't equate for example, the

30:10

Church of Rome or the Church of Colossa to today's church How do you know that the teachings directed at them apply to you?

30:17

I'm gonna direct the teaching so for example if you're going to say that the Church of Rome or the

30:23

Church of Jerusalem was a local church and They cease to exist because they're no longer here. Huh? It was a local church

30:30

But it was home. I got it I got it But if you're saying that we aren't to be equated with them as the church and it's no you're not the

30:37

Roman Catholic Church is An apostate sure fine. I'm fine with that. But how do you know that? I'm sorry, you're still fine with that.

30:46

Go ahead. I'm sorry. It's fine. It's fine. I I know I'm Actually, I've been actually thinking about maybe

30:53

Just I can show you why the Roman Catholic Church is not true. I can do it all kinds of different ways.

31:01

I Actually have I actually I I'm not like I'm not closed -minded and I'm open to changing it

31:07

I wasn't I for example, I've recently started exploring Annihilationist when I'm very very Like your other hand and put it in front of you.

31:15

Look, let me show you why let me ask you a question here I'm gonna show you whether on the Catholic Church one of the many ways to do this.

31:21

It's not true. Okay Does the is the God of Islam and the God of Christianity the same

31:26

God? No Absolutely, not if someone said the

31:32

God of Christianity and the God of Islam are the same God They wouldn't know they're talking about would they they're wrong, right?

31:39

Yeah So if some pastor, let's say some really, you know high -degree pastor on TV nice hairs got a couple of jets whatever

31:48

You know See, so you're just gonna bring the part of the catechism that says it's the same

31:54

Creator God hold on Doing a live discussion Let's talk later.

32:00

No, no, no, you don't have you don't have to do so. Okay. No, it's fine. You don't have

32:07

I'm good. All right. No, I don't want to take up the whole Q &A. There's nobody else here There was somebody messaging you and you put but yeah, okay.

32:15

No, no. No, it's on my phone. Oh Yeah, so, um He doesn't know

32:21

I'm doing this. So if anyone were to say some big slick TV preacher

32:28

All this TV stuff, you know, he said the God of Islam and the God of Christianity, you know We both served and served at the same the same

32:36

God, right you go. That guy's full of right You don't know what he's talking about. You can't trust him, right?

32:42

Right. Yeah. Yeah, I would say that This is paragraph 841 in the Catechism of the

32:47

Catholic Church The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place amongst whom are the

32:53

Muslims These profess to hold the faith of Abraham and together with us. They adore the one merciful

32:58

God mankind's judge in the last day Really Wow Catholic Church says that the

33:05

Muslims worship the same God they do The one merciful God. Okay, but just a quick.

33:11

Do you believe that the plan of salvation includes Muslims? What's the point

33:16

I'm making? Okay, they adore the one merciful God Do Muslims worship the one?

33:25

true only merciful God No, no, then why does a catechism say this?

33:32

Because they recognize the same qualities we do in certain sense because they're wrong They're wrong

33:42

It's wrong. You The Catholic Church got it wrong. It's just wrong.

33:50

I mean, I actually was an atheist before becoming Catholic. So I I It's all this isn't actually helped me

33:58

See the truth. Here's another thing. Here's another thing that that's that's bad Okay in paragraph 972 of the

34:05

Catholic Church speaking of the church Her origin the origin of the

34:10

Christian Church. Okay, speaking of the church her origin her mission her destiny

34:17

There's no better way to conclude to conclude than by looking to Mary Is that true?

34:26

Well, I think you've mentioned this before I I I think that as you said equivocation is is an important one that part of It says

34:37

After speaking of the church that that's the church that Jesus bought Her origin is bought with the blood of Christ and dwelt by God That's the origin the mission of the church is to hopefully

34:47

Convert the world and the destiny is to be in heaven with God We can find no better way to conclude that by looking to Mary No better way that means looking to Jesus is not as good as looking to Mary Go ahead and tell me why that Catholic Church is true.

35:03

It's just one of many things I got okay, but So yeah, we're just addressing random things, but I'll be happy to go and say that that um,

35:16

I Think the context is important. Like if the first 2 ,000 paragraphs of the

35:22

Catechism Spend their time or whatever it is spend their time explaining that Jesus is the one true

35:28

God and After that, they make it clear, right? I mean the context there obviously is

35:35

Mmm that after Jesus, but before you interrupt me I would like to point out three that the logic that's used to attack

35:42

It's also in that case for me is the same logic that's for example used to attack Christianity by Muslims So for example,

35:47

Jesus says that of that hour No one knows but the father and then they go no one means not even the

35:53

Holy Spirit Well, Jesus isn't talking about the Holy Spirit theory. Jesus is take by no one. That's not the Holy Spirit It specifies that it's the angels the

36:00

Sun and the Holy Spirit isn't talked about So, I don't know why you would employ the same logic obviously in that through the context 9th paragraph 971 all generations will call me blessed the church's devotion to the

36:13

Blessed Virgin is Intrinsic to Christian worship show me that in the New Testament. It's not there the church rightly honors a

36:20

Blessed Virgin with Revelation chapter 12 that shows the most special devotion to Mary than anyone where Mary is enthroned upon the skies and Literally crowned by the stars and such devotion is isn't obviously played there

36:38

So what once again, I've shown your question for you then that's that's Revelation 12 1

36:43

Yes, so did Mary have childbirth pains, which is a part of the curse? Sorry did

36:50

Mary suffer childbirth pains because that was the curse was to have childbirth pains Did she have cry childbirth pains?

36:57

Did she have labor pains, well, presumably not and a great sign appeared in heaven a woman clothed with a son and the moon under her feet and the

37:07

And her head a crown of 12 stars and she was with child and she cried out being in labor and in pain to give birth

37:16

Okay, so First of all a woman clothed with a son That's Mary The moon under her feet that's

37:25

Mary who gave birth her head a crown of 12 stars, that's Mary where'd you get this stuff

37:31

Childbirth, so who gave birth to Christ? Is Mary clothed with the

37:37

Sun the Sun and the moon she's clothed with the Sun. Well, that's what's being debated That that's kind of the moon under Mary's feet well

37:46

You asked for an example of exaltation of Mary and I gave you one You just assume that that's about Mary who gave birth to Christ who gave him wife

37:56

Why would she be in childbirth pains? Which is part of the curse that she was born immaculately without any any sin attached to her

38:03

So she shouldn't have childbirth pain. Why she have childbirth pain here Well, presumably from physiology

38:10

But I don't know birth pain is part of the curse The woman will have pain in delivery.

38:18

That's the curse was Mary under the curse She was under the curse. Sure. She shouldn't then she should not have labor pain.

38:26

This is not about Mary. I Don't know why that argument resonates with you because it seems to be pretty straight forward that it is about Mary But but I you just said

38:37

Mary wouldn't have childbirth pains and it says this one that you say is Mary had childbirth pains Well, it could be an analogy

38:45

I mean III don't know of every situation in which it can be I don't know why such a minute detail would

38:51

Somehow you know make you ignore the key point, which is that she gave birth to Christ and No, I think it's

39:00

Israel that's being spoken of. Well, it can be both. I also think it's Israel I think it's both. It's Israel. Did it make sense?

39:06

But if it's Mary, it doesn't because it's both it's both we agree that it's Israel It's not that it's not

39:12

Israel, of course, not we're not married because she had childbirth pains Okay, see, you know the issue was 971 and 72 and we keep reading the church were all the honors of Blessed Virgin with special devotion

39:26

Show me that in the Bible It's not there in the Bible for the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title mother of God That is not true.

39:35

Oh, you don't believe Mary's mother Okay. Did you read what it said? Did you listen with the title?

39:41

Mother of God the title the early church is in the book of Acts Ephesians Galatians Corinthians never is the title attributed to her

39:52

Never for the most from the most ancient times really Now we know that can't be

39:59

Old Testament, you know Moses and Elijah. I'll grant that So it has to be from the

40:04

Christian context and that's recorded in the book of Acts For example not

40:10

Mother of God never occurs there It does not occur there in the early church for the most ancient of times that this is wrong again to those whose protection the faithfully fly

40:24

Oh my goodness Listen to this from the most ancient times a Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title mother of God to whose protection the faithful Fly in all their dangers and needs.

40:33

I don't go to Mary for my protection Give me a break Idolatry it goes on this very special devotion differs essentially from the adoration

40:43

Which is given to the Incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit and greatly fosters this adoration

40:48

No it doesn't the literate the liturgical feast dedicated to the mother of God and Mary in prayer such as the rosary or An epitome of the whole gospel express this devotion of the

40:58

Virgin Mary 72 972 after speaking of the church her origin mission and destiny

41:04

We can find no better way to conclude it by looking to Mary in her We contemplate what the church already is and her mystery on her own pilgrimage of faith and what she will be in the homeland at the end of Her journey there in the glory the most high and undivided

41:18

Trinity in the communion of all the Saints The church is awaited by the one she venerates as mother of our

41:24

Lord and as their own mother now what it says That's the context after speaking of the church her origin mission and destiny we can find no better way to conclude that by looking to Mary Okay, we have a word for that in theology is called

41:39

Heresy, there's another word we call idolatry This is this is horrible

41:51

Are you there? Yeah. Yeah, I was listening This is what the

41:57

Roman Catholic Church teaches. I Catholic churches is just apostate it

42:09

Thank you. I got another idea, but we'll be working on pretty soon to demonstrate its idolatry

42:16

What are you doing? No, I'll talk about it later But I just need a bunch of documentation from Catholic resources and then

42:22

I'll say here if they say this this this and this is idolatry It'll be fun But I grew up in a country in a family that was

42:34

Kind of hostile to Catholicism. It was like I grew up non -denominational so so I I was you know for me

42:40

Catholicism was the farthest thing right and I Became an atheist.

42:46

You keep dancing with the devil. Wait, just a second. I was an atheist, right? and the first person who actually really gave me an insight into Catholicism was

42:54

Tim Staples and You know, I really respect the person he first Showed me but as I said,

43:02

I'm open -minded like I am willing to As I said, there are a couple of things that Catholic Church rejects that I have been open -minded to like annihilation is

43:10

I have come to Greatly respect annihilationism because I think annihilationism is biblical now again

43:18

Do I think that it's hundred percent? So no, but I lead that way nowadays, right? Because I think that they have demonstrated.

43:24

I just don't see the demonstrations of your arguments from the Bible Why what happens so much heresy so little time

43:33

I Don't know why you object to annihilation is I I read your articles. I read 180 articles

43:40

No, I read your articles about annihilation. That was the context agreed on Annihilation is

43:49

I have 180 articles. Oh, then the main ones Which ones are the main ones?

43:58

Well, you wrote a Annihilation, I don't remember the exact name It was the one that you wrote about but what

44:04

I was saying is that if you show me from the Bible, right? Supporting the view that for example, there is no such thing as a unified

44:12

Church that You know the other thing actually that convinced me of Catholicism was how much of it

44:22

For example collapses right because all it becomes is well It isn't necessarily the alternative to Catholicism, but at least from the point of view

44:30

If a flat earth are worth to argue for example that references to the dome Mean that the earth is flat because the

44:38

Bible says so what way do you have? To say that that's wrong other than just to say that it's wrong because I don't interpret it that way

44:46

I have an article on flat earth. You can go through some of the stuff in there Yeah, of course

44:52

But I'm just saying I don't see what I see a lot of people do when they attack Catholicism It's just you know, quote these random things from a catechism and I haven't ever seen them lay out their system of showing

45:05

Okay, we don't accept this trip Well, I accept the Orthodox and Orientals that do that, but I haven't seen anyone say that you know

45:10

Here is the continuity of the church, right? We don't who said we need the continuity of the church What you keep making these assumptions?

45:17

Where does it say we need to have that show me where in the Bible or we need to have that? But you read it right when you didn't read it

45:24

Show me where it says we have to have the continuity of the church. What you mean is historical continuity from then to now

45:30

That's what you mean, but you read these words. You read these words and I quote them Please let me finish you read these words

45:37

When you for example have a dispute with somebody and cannot resolve it take it to the church

45:44

Yeah, that's not the same thing as continuity of the church from then to now Well, it assumes that the church is still there if you could take matters to it to what church you take it to the one that you're supposed to Which one is that?

45:58

The only Christian Church, there's just one right the one in Antioch the one in Jerusalem The one in Celestia all of them teach the same doctrine, right?

46:07

No, wait, wait, wait, wait, take it to the church Which church you take it to? The one that's in the tradition of the

46:12

Apostles. Which church do you take it to if you're in? Jerusalem you take it to Jerusalem Church if you're in Antioch, you take it to the

46:21

Antioch Church Where do you what if you're in Phoenicia you take it to the Phoenician Church if you're in Laodicea Do you take it to Laodicea?

46:28

You're confusing the local body with the church the local No, I'm not actually

46:34

I'm testing you You want to say take it to the church is The local body the whole church if the local body is within the same tradition

46:45

So if they take it to sorry I heard a noise no, that's fine

46:58

So I gotta go check I have this my portable thing that's why my wife's not home That's why

47:03

I hear a noise because I've been swatted because people You know

47:10

So Just gonna walk around a little bit Sorry, I'm not paranoid.

47:16

It's just you know, what? Oh crap. I didn't know you were home, hon Heard a noise.

47:24

I thought you were gone Okay. All right. Sorry scared me

47:30

Okay, but I thought you just had a Marion apparition and was it we're about to come. Well, she's better looking in No, I Didn't know she's home.

47:43

I thought she'd be gone longer. All right, so I did hear a noise Okay now

47:49

So you said you were swatted before yes So, what does that mean? They actually sent police to your home or no someone called up and said my name is

47:56

Matt slip I just shot and killed my wife So I had to walk backwards my hands up with all kinds of ak -47s

48:02

Glocks Weapons pointed at me. I've got handcuffed in the back of a car, etc Really?

48:08

Wow. Yep So let me let me offer this to people if anyone else

48:16

Wants to join in in this discussion You're welcome to it's just I was hoping that the anti -calvinist would show but they

48:24

I'm gonna have to say this publicly if they listen, they're just basically cowards They talk a lot and they never show up to a real live discussion like this ridiculous

48:37

Would like to offer up some counterpoints that I think many anti -calvinist sold because these are the things

48:43

I also I Think the thing is I agree with Calvinism in some points because I'm a determinist

48:48

So I think Calvinists have that right the fact that God determines all things and that God And the fact that free will is not incompatible with the idea of you know,

48:58

God determining stuff I agree with that. But here are some points with the Bible No, not with the

49:04

Bible, but with the I think the problem is with the limited atonement So I don't think that limited atonement is the same as Calvinist because there's a bunch of four -point

49:13

Calvinists that are very good Christians and I respect them. They're called Emerald Ian's But Emerald Ian ism.

49:23

They the limited atonement was one that they deny and they're hence called Emerald Ian's So here are the verses that I think are the hardest to deal with The hardest to deal with are first of all, we have to go to first John which this is just to warm up Okay, and I again

49:43

I'm not offering arguments against Calvin if I'm offering arguments against raise your best stuff. We'll see what we got

49:48

Five point Calvinism. So this is a big difference. I think four -point Calvinism is acceptable, right?

49:54

Because I think four -point Calvinism is amazing Okay. So first John for example says that Christ came to his own but his own did not recognize him

50:05

Mm -hmm What does that mean for before you continue before you continue, please what this seems to mean is that Christ went to those who

50:16

God set him out to as in the whole world and the world did not recognize now according to your interpretation

50:22

This must mean that the saved did not recognize card Christ which would be an oxymoron right because the saved are saved because they recognize

50:29

Christ. So what's your response to that? What verse are you talking about? Okay, so that's So it's

50:40

John 1 11 But you'd have to read there is no first John 1 11

50:47

John 1 11. Oh, you mean John for John one Not for sure John one Okay Yeah, he he was in he came to zone.

50:57

That's the Jews Exactly, right But his own did not receive him right why did he come to his own to save them right

51:06

To give them eternal life He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel Matthew 15 24.

51:15

He said the disciples out He said don't go by the way of the Gentiles Matthew chapter 10. I think it's verse 7 or 9

51:21

He said don't go to anyone else just go to the Gentiles because covenantally Jesus was sent or into the lost sheep of the house of Israel That's why he was sent to Israel the nation of Israel and he died for them too, right?

51:35

He died for his elect Mm -hmm What does it mean to die for someone? What does it mean? To to make them savable as in before that they had no chance of to be saved.

51:47

Whereas now Where's where'd you get that?

51:52

That makes them savable. Can you show me that in Scripture? Well, I think that's

51:58

John 3 16 that whoever believes in have eternal life So before then there was no such option that if you believed you would have eternal life now there is the option

52:10

Look, I'll give you a better option to go if you want to argue Okay, what you instead of arguing that go to Romans 5 6 for a while We're still helpless at the right time

52:20

Christ died for the ungodly That might be better for you. Yeah, I guess I guess I would have gone there eventually

52:25

I think I had it on my Christ died for us Romans 5 8 Yes Christ died for the yeah, exactly.

52:34

So thank you for supplying with a better verse. So yeah, so Christ died for the ungodly as well But you're probably gonna say that they were ungodly before Christ and then became godly, right?

52:43

Everybody's ungodly So you're ungodly? Yeah You said though, yeah, then what's the point of car

52:55

To bring to help glorify God and to Be used by him to glorify his himself and expand his kingdom.

53:03

How can you be ungodly then? It's a generic term. I'm ungodly and then I'm still a sinner.

53:08

I'll say I justified Okay, so what does it mean to die for someone?

53:14

What does that mean? well in the Christian context to die in order to In order to give them the grace

53:25

Is that a book of second Moronicles Come on Show me the scripture the scripture for why

53:33

Christ died No that you said what you just said Make sure here it is. We can let's try it again.

53:40

Let's try to look here It is if you're gonna say something show me scripture to back it up. Okay, fine. I'll do that I don't know verse

53:47

I can maybe find it for you. Try to help you out Okay, here it is 1st Corinthians 15 3 for I deliver to you as a furtive support

53:55

The Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures who is our here just the elect first Peter 3 18 for Christ also died for sins once and for all the just for the

54:06

Unjust so that he might bring us to God having been put to death in flesh, but made alive in the spirit That's first Peter 3 18 now.

54:12

I'm asking you who are the unjust? Here for whom he died It could be generically just anybody who's the elect as well as it could be anybody's ever lived and it's certainly

54:24

The elect were ungodly weren't they? So he died for the ungodly you still there.

54:37

Yeah, I'm here. What is the Here's what I don't understand right if the scriptures say that Christ Death was necessary to bring unto

54:48

God those and by the way I don't disagree with the idea of the elect as long as the elect are defined as those who will ultimately come to Christ So we for example agree with the definition

55:03

But and that's why I have a problem with my point Calvinist if you were to define the elect as those who will come to Christ Even if you agree that they come to Christ because of God's sovereign will which

55:14

I accept because I believe in determinism Then we would agree, but you don't define it that way you believe that those that were chosen

55:22

Those people were elected and Christ died only for them. No one else. So Christ didn't die for everybody, right?

55:30

No, he didn't the first Samuel 314 for example says and I'll read it to you fit for Samuel 3 13 and 14

55:36

Okay, and I'll just prove to you. Let's go straight to the scriptures Okay 3 13 and 14 God talking

55:42

God at talking For I have told him that I'm about to judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knew because his sons brought a curse

55:50

On themselves did not rebuke them Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever

56:00

So did Jesus bear their sin? Yes But he's

56:06

God said that he would never atone for their sins by offering her sacrifice forever okay, and We obviously don't believe that that means that he would never actually offer a singular sacrifice right because he also right there.

56:23

I Have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever

56:34

Well, that's referring to the lamb offering So it's only referring to a lamb offering so when it says

56:42

For I have told him in verse 13. I'm up by the judge's house forever It just means a limited time

56:51

Well, it refers to that the ordinary atonement that they had in mind like or offering up a lamb

56:57

It didn't refer to and here are other risks Forever this forever mean only the the time of the lambs and the sacrifice of the animals

57:09

No, it means that forever under ordinary means of atonement

57:14

Under ordinary means of atonement. Why do you keep adding to the word? Well, that seems to be what's presumed but I wanted to run by you these passages that seem to be

57:25

Running against running against your theory John 1 29 the next day Behold the

57:31

Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world Not just take away the sin of the world, of course, because Does does anybody go to hell

57:43

Yes, and how do you take away their sin? By dying for them because that's the

57:50

Christian doctor. How can they go to hell if they don't have any sin? It's been taken care of it's been removed. It's been taken away.

57:55

It doesn't exist anymore So why would they go to hell for is no sin for them because they continue to sin after they it's been forgiven

58:01

Where's the say that? But that's why they go to hell people go to hell for their sin, right?

58:07

Don't we agree? It says he took away the sins of the world.

58:14

Yes, that does that mean every individual who ever lived? Well, presumably because that's what the world means.

58:22

Did he take away Judas Iscariot sin? Didn't he?

58:31

I'm asking you. Did he my answer is no he didn't did he take away the sin of Judas Iscariot?

58:37

Yes, he did because why is Judas Iscariot damned Because he chose to betray

58:44

Christ that was a sin it's removed it can't be held against him Because he chose to persist in that sin

58:54

That persistent sin is is sin. It was taken away. So are you saying individual that means him?

59:00

I mean all of his sins, but I think it is only part of their sins. Are you saying that you are sinless right now?

59:10

Why don't you stick with the topic at hand about Judas you said

59:15

That Jesus took away the sin of the world and that means every individual This is the world every individual means of future people.

59:23

That means all of their sins in the future Yeah, as well as all the past and he's all of Judas sins were taken

59:30

Away, so how can God condemn Judas to hill to hell if Judas doesn't have any sin?

59:36

Because he persisted in the sins he didn't have any sin I Don't understand why you believe that taking away sin means being completely cleansed of all sins

59:47

What it means is it takes away the origin, right? Where's it say take away the origin of Original sin.

59:55

Sorry. Did it say original sin? Well, Paul says that as through one man came in the sin

01:00:01

So did for through one man came come the redemption of Christ, right? So what that means is as Adam brought the chain, but that's okay.

01:00:09

Sorry You keep changing the word to make it fit your theology But then can you explain and say that you believe according to your theology that you're sinless right now?

01:00:20

I Didn't say that. So if you're not sinless, you believe that you could still commit sin, right? Yeah, I do

01:00:25

Yeah, so so then this whole exchange was pointless if you believe that someone who sin has been taken away can sin

01:00:34

No, you don't understand they have judgment if all a person's sin is removed

01:00:40

Can he go to hell if all of his sin is gone? Okay.

01:00:47

Do you believe all your sins are gone? Yes, all of them are taken care of You're not a sinner no,

01:00:55

I didn't say that all of them have been taken care of by God on the cross All my future sins to him were taken care of by the cross all of it

01:01:03

Now doesn't mean I'm not a sinner today I mean if I said I commit tomorrow the next day the next day we're nailed to Christ on the cross.

01:01:09

They're imputed to him Now If Judas had all his sins

01:01:16

Nailed to the cross and canceled removed wiped away. How can he go to hell?

01:01:23

Because he still persisted in the sin. He didn't make the choice and is included in all of his sins

01:01:29

Anything you say is included in the couplet all sin Okay, but I I don't accept that removing all sins means removing the choice to continue in that sin

01:01:43

Continuing in his sin is a sin. He removed all the sin Yes, but you have to believe for that to be credited to you right not living as a sin he took away all sin

01:01:56

Yeah, I don't see what the point of this is because I think that I made a clear point that Christ took the sins of the world on him now

01:02:05

That doesn't mean that every individual except not in first Samuel 3 13 and 14

01:02:10

The iniquities of Eli's house will not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever Okay, fine

01:02:15

Even if we exclude them if you were to say that's a special case that even if I were to go along with it

01:02:21

But let's just stick with us. Why don't you accept that? The whole world was made savable rather than the whole world was saved

01:02:29

Why can't you accept that taking away sins means that they became Saveable what this means is previously they were unsaveable and by taking away their sins

01:02:40

They became saveable is that's what most Christians accept now Most Christians don't know their way out of a wet paper bag.

01:02:47

Look, let me let me introduce a concept to you here This is Ephesians 1 4 just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world

01:02:55

I accept that God chose us in Christ. I accept for the world That means we're elected before the foundation of the world exactly as in God knew who would come to him and he wouldn't oh

01:03:07

So now God is shows favoritism. No, he doesn't yes. He no, no, no see

01:03:12

He knows he's gonna come to him. So he picks him. No, he doesn't In them. No the elect are the ones that God knows will come to him

01:03:20

Oh, why are they gonna come to him because of their free will choice? Well, I don't believe in libertarian free.

01:03:26

Well, I believe in compatibilism. Yeah, I do too So why are they gonna come to him because of their choice? Yes, but it's not a libertarian choice.

01:03:34

It's a choice that I got that so the Bible says the unbelievers a slave of sin a hater of God can do no good doesn't seek for God Cannot receive the things of God.

01:03:45

So how does he just simply choose God? Because God gave him The gift of faith the gifts of faith.

01:03:52

Yeah, so God gives him the gift of faith to believe in him and he doesn't believe in him Well, he does unless he falls away he were six unless he falls away that's not

01:04:03

That's not about losing your salvation because it says in verse 5 there It says that it's impossible again to renew them to repentance

01:04:10

Which means if you teach you can lose your salvation if you've lost at once and you can never get back Which I know you don't teach that in Roman Catholic Church doesn't teach that either

01:04:16

So that would be so that versus a prickly doesn't talk about that It says here he chose us in him and you're saying that God knows in the future who will pick him and that's why he's their elect

01:04:27

Yes, that's the definition because you know, then we both accepted Compatibilism, right?

01:04:33

There's no conflict. I don't see. Yes. All right So what you're saying is that God knows what good thing people are gonna do and he makes his choice of salvation based on the good in somebody else

01:04:45

No, it's his nature to know the future and he calls those who he knows will choose the

01:04:55

They will choose their own free will they're gonna choose right well if they are deterministic free will not a libertarian one

01:05:00

I Understand I'm a compatibilist. Yeah me too. I know you are too. Okay, I'm working with a compatibilist issue

01:05:08

Now and you see your determinants what you're misusing, but that's okay You chose us in him you say he looks in the future that's a loose phrase

01:05:19

He died Did he did he learn who was gonna pick him? No Okay, so did he decree who's gonna pick him?

01:05:27

Yes So did he bring people in who's gonna pick him? Yes, why do they pick him

01:05:35

Well, that's the whole issue of compatibilism. Why do they pick him? Did they pick him on their own free will? No, they picked him because they didn't they didn't use their own free will then how are they responsible for their own?

01:05:48

for choice and belief But I thought you were a compatibilist.

01:05:53

Why are you? So then what's the problem if you already accept that free will is not if they didn't use their own free will how are they?

01:06:02

Even responsible for even believing if it's not by Libertarian free will it was

01:06:09

I understand that I understand that so then what's the problem if You agree with me on this right?

01:06:14

You agree that they use their free. Will it just was predetermined? I'm asking you a

01:06:21

Question you're actually affirming Libertarianism, I'm not I believe you are.

01:06:27

No, I'm a compatibilist. I'm a determined. You are not a compatibilist. You're libertarian Let me explain

01:06:33

You saying that God looks in the future. So he was gonna pick him in that they become the elect You're saying that they become elect based on what

01:06:41

God sees in them in the future Right. No, God also predetermined that future Both he knows the future because it's his future

01:06:50

So are you saying then that what God did was? Ordain and cause them to believe.

01:06:57

Yes. I agree with that The thing we disagree on is whether those are the only ones he died for that's the only difference

01:07:05

Okay, good now we're on language is important. All right, so let's get back to the issue

01:07:10

So you say he canceled the sin debt for everybody who ever lived? Yes Well, and why does anybody go to hell?

01:07:18

Because they don't persist in Islam or a sin a sin debt for everybody. That's that's us

01:07:23

That's no sin could be held against them. None. It's all canceled none a Person who's had a sin that canceled all of it is canceled gone.

01:07:33

Nothing wrong No sin, it could be held against them. None. Nothing zip nada. No How does

01:07:40

God send him to hell? because of their

01:07:49

Persistence in not believing in him because they don't have the gift of it So what doesn't matter if they don't believe they don't have any sin any sin

01:08:00

Yeah We don't agree on the definition of what it means to forgive all sin because for me once again

01:08:07

Forgiving all sin implies that God removed the stain of the sins that they had

01:08:13

Not that they won't choose to sin We're talking about the actual sin. You're saying if their sins are taken care of we're removed or canceled

01:08:22

They don't exist anymore all of their sins. I'm just simply asking from your perspective. How do they go to hell then?

01:08:29

There's no sin to be held to their account God judges them right for salvation, right? Yeah, it's on what because they don't have any sin so he can't send him to hell there is no sin

01:08:49

Yeah, I I don't know how to respond to that yeah because your positions incorrect Well, they don't become they do not become chosen

01:09:05

Because of some event that they're going to go through What you're saying without realizing it is that you're accusing

01:09:13

God of partiality what you're doing is you're saying God knows who'll pick him and That he'll grant them the status of being the elect based upon their choice now what we went through just to clarify

01:09:25

I Think you got to the point finally where you would you got it, right? That in a compatibilist freewill view

01:09:32

God granted it believed because he ordained that they believe Yeah, then that would not be election based on what he saw

01:09:38

They would believe it'd be election based upon his choice that they would believe. Yeah.

01:09:43

Yeah, we agree on that What we disagree on is whether he died also for them that he knew wouldn't pick him. That's the only difference

01:09:49

Was it me to die for? Does he remove the sin debt? Well, I I read the

01:09:58

But God demonstrates his own love to where doesn't that while we were yet sinners Christ died for it. Yes. Yes, so he canceled the sinfulness the sinfulness

01:10:08

Sorry sin. Okay Sinfulness, I mean yeah, yeah, and I'm in trouble

01:10:14

He canceled the sin that Jesus said, you know father heart in heaven Hallowed be thy name forgive us our debts in Matthew 6 12 forgive us our sins in Luke 11 4 so Jesus equated sin with legal debt

01:10:27

Paul says Canceling the certificate of debt consisting of decrees which was hostile to us He took it out of the way having no to the cross

01:10:33

Colossians 2 14 So Jesus canceled the sin that if your sin debts canceled you can't go to hell.

01:10:39

So who do you cancel it for? Okay, I mean this is where I said,

01:10:45

I don't know how to respond because it seems like we are working on different definitions of No, I spent so much time with definitions.

01:10:52

I asked what these things mean If G look it's simple If Jesus canceled the sin debt for everybody then everybody has to go to heaven and people say well

01:11:01

No, they have to believe no, they don't because disbelief is a sin If they want to say well, that's the one it's not taken care of where'd you get that in the

01:11:11

Bible, you know That's why I ask him. Where does it say that? It all of our sin was future to Christ.

01:11:17

So it's all of our sin if He actually removes a sin of somebody actually does it really does it?

01:11:25

They can't go to hell because their sin debt is removed It's gone. And if if an atheist goes before God, he's not an atheist anymore

01:11:34

There's God and if he never received Christ during his lifetime on earth and he's standing before God And someone informs this atheist who's now a true believer

01:11:49

Go a little late says look All your sin is removed all of it

01:11:55

He'd be like, yeah I'm going to heaven then and If someone said no, you're not you're going to hell.

01:12:02

Whoa. Whoa on What basis well, you didn't believe but that's a sin

01:12:08

Yeah, but that's the one that we don't count really in atonement. What? It makes no sense

01:12:17

All you have to do is acknowledge that Jesus Came to save the ones given to him by the

01:12:22

Father all that the Father gives me will come to me and the ones who come To me I certainly will not cast out But this is the will of my father who sent me that all he's given me

01:12:29

I lose none, but raise it up on the last day the will of the Father that Jesus lose none Because Jesus is the one who received the ones from the

01:12:38

Father for safekeeping All the Father gives me will come to me. They're given by the

01:12:44

Father to the Son They're gonna come to him the ones who come to him. I will certainly not cast out He says this is the will of the

01:12:50

Father That he who believes in the Son will have eternal life. I myself will raise him up in the last day John 640

01:12:57

He will not lose any the will of the Father that Jesus not lose any Jesus can't lose any

01:13:04

And you see Hebrew 6 4 2 6 talks about losing salvation. No, it doesn't Jesus said you can't

01:13:12

I'm just looking at these verses and I was as I said I try to be as open -minded as possible

01:13:17

Like the thing is I don't want to be stuck and saying I don't want to change my mind I'm open to becoming

01:13:23

Calvinist. Sorry five -point Calvinist today But I'm just looking at a whole plethora of verses here, and I'm just trying to imagine

01:13:33

That if I let I mean I think you believe that the scripture should be let to speak, right? You don't think that we should impose our meaning.

01:13:40

So I'm just reading the verses like Okay, so I'm just looking for Verses here that are completely, you know drawn

01:13:54

And I'm just trying to see how limited atonement would fit into these verses, right?

01:14:00

For the Son of Man came to seek and save the lost as in sinners, right? And Lost and I I'm just trying to imagine that when

01:14:09

Luke was writing this in 1910 He had in mind that the lost are only those who are saved right only those who are elected and then

01:14:17

John Okay that we already read but here are other John 6 33 for the bread of God is that which comes down from and gives life to the world

01:14:26

So the world just means those people who only receive the light. He's all the nations all the groups of people

01:14:34

As long as I'm in the world, I'm the light of the world not just yes So that the world may believe that thou has sent me who is the world just it.

01:14:45

I Don't know how these verses can be reconciled with limited atonement without again imposing

01:14:52

Something and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages Ephesians 3 8 9

01:14:58

Reconcile to himself all the things whether on earth or in heaven now

01:15:03

How how can how can this all things refer to I? Mean you'd have to really practice some sort of mental gymnastic to fit this one in which collosions 119 20 for in him all of the fullness

01:15:18

Pleased to dwell and through him to reconcile to himself all things whether on earth or in heaven making peace by the blood of his

01:15:25

Cross what is reconcile mean? Well what we just went through right

01:15:31

Christ died to reconcile sinners Good. What does it mean to reconcile? To bring them back to God So he reconciled all things brought me to God.

01:15:39

So did he reconcile the people who are in hell? No, this obviously refers to people who are alive or at least not in Well, so you said all things right?

01:15:51

Yeah. Okay. So all things does not mean The damned doesn't mean the demonic

01:15:57

Hordes either does it? No. No, of course. I mean all things as in as it's understood Also Matthew 12 22 32 blasphemy the

01:16:04

Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or an age to come So he did not reconcile those who committed blasphemy the Holy Spirit.

01:16:10

Did he know? Okay, so all so all things means what well all things just not not those exceptional cases, which we all agree on Okay, so That verse does not refute limit atonement at all

01:16:30

Well, if it's all things Well, you just you just agreed it's not all not all things as every individual and every what does it mean to reconcile all things?

01:16:39

That's the questions or legitimate question It says having made peace through his blood or through the blood of his cross made peace with all things

01:16:46

That does not include Satan the demonic horde does not mean Judas Iscariot It does not mean those who are in hell does not mean those who committed blasphemy the

01:16:53

Holy Spirit So you have a limited view of all things?

01:16:59

You're a you're an all things limited person. You believe in limited all things yeah,

01:17:13

I Think that I am beginning to see your logic here now that I'm good applying it and It's it's gonna be something hard to accept because I think it is hard to accept.

01:17:28

You better believe it is I Resisted it and most everybody I know also resisted not everybody

01:17:33

It's hard to accept and the reason is because we have these with man -centered ideas about how

01:17:38

God's supposed to be He's a blonde -haired blue -eyed Caucasian surfer Jesus dressed in a woman's nightgown Yeah, I don't know

01:17:45

Takes an opportunity here. Sorry. You're such a polite guy. No, let me address something as someone raised in here, which kind of Falls into this about not winning for anyone wanting for anyone to perish but for all to come to repentance, right?

01:17:58

Yeah, but that's also a good verse to use. Yeah, it is. It's a great verse now There's different ways to look at this and or to examine it to consider some stuff by it now

01:18:09

I'm gonna put this word this word the text in the chat so people can see it All right, and then what

01:18:15

I'm gonna do is quote something else and I'm not setting scripture against scripture. I'm making a point

01:18:21

All right, because the point is we have to harmonize the Word of God Because the scripture says what it says people will say to me that God wants everyone to be saved.

01:18:34

Okay, let's just go with that if that's the case That he wants everyone to be saved.

01:18:39

Then. Why do we have mark 4 10 through 12 and As soon as he was alone his followers along with the 12 began asking him about the parables and he was saying to them

01:18:49

To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables So that while seeing they may see and not perceive and while hearing they may hear and not understand

01:19:01

Otherwise, they might return and be forgiven Okay, so Matt, you know, one of the things that actually confused me about this conversation is if we agree on compatibilism

01:19:12

What why is it so hard to accept that the idea that God set certain things to be one way is?

01:19:20

Not contrary to the idea that people choose it that way and that doesn't mean that there is

01:19:27

No, that doesn't mean that there is conflict between free will and choice, right? So the fact is that I believe that God determined everything

01:19:35

I would do as in God doesn't learn what I choose, right? I agree with that and I agree with that as well

01:19:41

So why is it wrong for God to know that Pharisees would misunderstand this these parables, right?

01:19:50

He says he spoke some spoken parables. He will not be forgiven. Oh I guess

01:19:55

I'm willing to give up my time for them because I think that's okay. It's David Neff.

01:20:01

I know Dave Here's the thing It says it says, you know that I'm trying to get people to think

01:20:08

They'll jump on he wants all men to be saved 2nd Peter 3 9. You can also go to 1st Timothy 2 4, you know

01:20:15

Yeah, it's basically the same thing. Well, I just asking a question. Okay, let's say that's the case So he wants all men to be saved and why does

01:20:21

Jesus speak in parables and he says so people so they won't get saved Oh, wait a minute if he wants all people to be saved yet He speaks in parables.

01:20:28

So people will not be saved. Is that a contradiction? No, because of compatibilism

01:20:34

Right compatibilism isn't the issue here issue is is

01:20:40

If he wants all to be saved, why does he speak in a way so they won't be saved? That's the question if he wants all to be saved.

01:20:51

Why does he speak in a way so they won't all be saved And here's something else second

01:20:57

Thessalonians. I believe it's to I think you said I don't want to set scripture against picture But what is this other than setting scripture against scripture?

01:21:05

It's an opportunity Whenever you have something like this

01:21:10

Where you're not sure what it means and it sounds contradictory. What you do is you go explore and you learn

01:21:18

So if God says that he wills everyone to be saved How can he will?

01:21:25

Sorry, not will for everyone to be saved I don't understand how you can hold both and just saying that there are some verses where he speaks in parables don't seem to And again,

01:21:37

I'm willing to give up my time because I think we've been talking in this and other person It's important to talk. Let's finish this out because people are asking it in there the chat room and then we'll talk to Dave Here's the thing

01:21:51

Okay when I was younger Quite a while ago.

01:21:56

I was reading through the NESB So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men.

01:22:02

So also through one act of righteousness There resulted justification of life to all men Who's the all men?

01:22:09

I'm gonna go wait a minute justification means you're saved the result of justification of life to all men I'm gonna give this short version of stuff

01:22:16

So I started studying because it can't be that everyone saved but that's what the text said I went and looked at the

01:22:21

Greek that is what it says Now the word there resulted is not there in the Greek in either place

01:22:27

What it literally says is through one transgression condemnation to all men. So also Through one act of righteousness

01:22:34

Justification of life to all men. That's what it literally says So it's the so also is sentence

01:22:40

B, which means it's like sentence a Okay, so one transgression condemnation to all men.

01:22:46

So also like that Through an act of righteousness justification of life to all men. It caused me to stumble

01:22:53

I've learned since then what the answer is and I've learned since then whenever I find something like this and it seems like it's an

01:22:59

Apparent contradiction is because I don't understand. I Go, oh good and I get to learn

01:23:05

So I did a study. This is the first time this happened to me was with his verse I checked the

01:23:10

NIV the King James. I discovered the NIV and the King James translated him wrong and I can get into that So I started looking and I found something else

01:23:19

I'll just cut to the chase God uses the word all differently than we do.

01:23:25

I did a study in the word all I've got another case study on that But when it says he to all men

01:23:31

I started looking and I found out some stuff You know, one of the things I did was I went to 1st Corinthians 15 22, which says in Adam all die in Christ All shall be made alive

01:23:42

Wait a minute in Adam all die in Christ all shall be made alive. Well the in Christ means that those who are

01:23:49

Christians That's all I can mean in Adam means everybody in Christ only means the

01:23:56

Christians only means the elect So what one of the things I don't understand what this logic is, you know, the thing is

01:24:02

I Mean, I'm not advocating this view because obviously I don't need to but wouldn't it be easier to say from that perspective?

01:24:10

That there are contradictions in the Bible. No, then let me Let me finish then to say that when

01:24:18

God says that all he wills ever and I'm not advocating that there are contradictions Because I I don't hold to inerrancy, but I hold to infallibility.

01:24:26

So that that means that the message cannot contradict But but do you understand what I'm saying?

01:24:31

I mean, that's true. Sorry. Sorry. Go ahead. There's an answer You hold to infallibility or inerrance fallibility, but not inerrancy because you don't know what you you don't know that word of God teaches

01:24:44

No, I know what it teaches us. I'm a Christian. Oh, you don't know about this I'm teaching you this you're bringing this up in light of this in light of the idea of a possible contradiction

01:24:52

I'm no, I don't accept contradictions in doctrine. No, okay. Good. Okay. I misunderstood you that's right No inerrancy means something like for example, every single word is like what

01:25:02

King James only so that's what I don't believe I believe I don't Question here, okay in that it means everybody ever lived in Christ does not mean everybody ever lived because because When you go to verses like Romans 5

01:25:18

Romans 6 6 Knowing this that our old self was crucified with him in verse 8

01:25:26

Romans 6 8 we have died with Christ. We died with Christ not in her baptism, but when he was crucified

01:25:33

Our old self was crucified with Christ with him in order that our body of sin might be done away with That's that can only be understood in federal headship that the male represents his ascendance

01:25:44

The male represents those who are in him in him literally in his body in his seed

01:25:51

Adam represented all those in him in his seed all the descendancy Likewise but in a spiritual sense we are in Christ Because he had no children physically he has children by adoption by election so when it says

01:26:11

In Adam all I mean in Christ all should be made alive. The all can only be the elect

01:26:18

It can only be the elect. It can only be those who are Christians. It can only be those who who are believers

01:26:24

It can't be everybody else because it wouldn't make any sense Then when you go to first Corinthians 5 5 14

01:26:32

Say good is 514 for the love of Christ controls us. Have you concluded this that one died for all?

01:26:40

Therefore all died This is critical verse right here. He died for all Therefore all died

01:26:47

Who's the all who died? What does it mean? You know says all died.

01:26:54

Well notice what it says in Romans. It's gonna be in in Romans 6 8 It says we have died with Christ and if you go to Colossians 3 it says

01:27:07

Verse 3 for you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God So he's talking about us dying when he died on the cross.

01:27:18

We were represented by Christ and on the cross He said it says in 2nd Corinthians 514 one died for all therefore all died.

01:27:26

Who's the all who died? It cannot be everybody who ever lived

01:27:32

Okay, but are you saying that the elect died? Yes, how can the elect die in Christ?

01:27:39

because of federal headship because We were given by the

01:27:44

Father to the Son John 6 37 We were chosen in Christ in him before the foundation of the world

01:27:53

Ephesians 1 for our redemptive work Cannot be the work of God in a temporal priority in that God looked in the future

01:28:04

Then decided to save it Cannot be that it has to be that we were chosen before the foundation of the world in Christ at the same time

01:28:14

Logical necessity and I would say even we could get into this Logical priority of having to be in Christ before you could be saved with that that has some weaknesses to it

01:28:25

But that's another advanced topic What it's saying in Ephesians 1 for is the issue of we were chosen in Christ.

01:28:32

The choosing has to be in Christ It choosing can't be of all that's there That only some are going to come in if they believe that doesn't that that's that violates

01:28:44

Ephesians 1 for The idea of being in Christ is something that we are given to Christ.

01:28:50

We are in him That's what it says. We're chosen in him and it says in in Romans 6 6

01:28:57

We get to it There's a Romans 6 6 knowing this that our old self was crucified with him.

01:29:04

Wait. Well, when was Jesus crucified? He's crucified 2 ,000 years ago. Our old self was crucified with him

01:29:12

What does that mean? What does it mean to our old self was crucified with him

01:29:20

We had to be represented by Christ on the cross then it makes sense In order that our body of sin might be done away with so that we would no longer be slaves of sin for he was died

01:29:31

Is freed from sin Now notice this he would die for me from sin, which is

01:29:36

Romans 6 1 What shall we say then are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase may never be for how shall we have died?

01:29:42

To sin still live in it. Wait a minute. So I'll ask somebody when did we die and they'll say

01:29:48

Baptism or did you not know that all of us who've been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into his death

01:29:55

Is that when we died with Christ people said well, yeah, we died with Christ. We were baptized Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death

01:30:03

Now being baptized into death is not the same thing as dying with Christ Because faith

01:30:12

Excuse me circumcision according to Paul in Romans 4 11 is a sign in the seal of the faith that he had while uncircumcised in Colossians 2 11 and 12

01:30:22

Paul relates baptism and circumcision together He relates them so baptism has at least to some effect the sign of the seal of the faith that you already have

01:30:33

Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death Not that we died with him So that Christ was raised from the dead to the glory of the

01:30:40

Father. We too might we too might walk in newness of life It didn't say we were raised here in baptism

01:30:47

It doesn't say the baptism and out of the water is what did it? For if we become a united with him in a likeness of his death

01:30:53

Certainly, we shall also be in a likeness of his resurrection. I have no problem I believe in if a baptism not for salvation

01:30:59

I have no problem with sprinkling and pouring but I have no problem here of this being referring to an immersion

01:31:04

I think it works better if people are immersed in water that makes sense likeness of his death likeness of his resurrection.

01:31:11

I like that Knowing this that our old self was crucified with him. Now. That's what it says. When was our old self crucified with him?

01:31:18

back 2 ,000 years ago Okay in order that this body of sin might be done away with so that we would no longer be slaves to sin for he was

01:31:26

Died from sin It died is free from sin. That's what it says in verse 7. He was died from sin

01:31:33

Who has died is freed from sin, but it says in Romans 6 2 how shall we have died to sin still live in it?

01:31:41

We have died with Christ Romans 6 8. That's how we've died to sin. We died with Christ the manifestation of that death is

01:31:50

Typified by the sign and the seal of baptism That's what's going on it's a sign and a seal the thing we already have we are already in Christ because Ephesians 1 4

01:32:01

Says we're in him from the foundation of the world. He died. We died He represented us just as in Adam all die.

01:32:09

He represented us There's this in him for federal heads of representation Adam represented everybody but Christ only represented his people

01:32:18

That's what's going on there. So when it says in 2nd Corinthians 5 14 It says the love of Christ controls us having concluded this that one died for all therefore all died

01:32:27

The all who died can only be the elect you see it perfect sense

01:32:34

Then when we go to Romans 5 18 we go through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men

01:32:39

That's Adams word. So also through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men they go ah,

01:32:47

I Get it. The all men he's talking about are the elect and I'm not just reading into the text

01:32:52

I'm going all over the scriptures and showing how God uses this pattern of words Just so you know this took me like three weeks to figure out and I've been perfecting it honing it ever since See, it makes sense

01:33:06

The Armenian position does not the Roman Catholic position does not He died we died with him.

01:33:12

He canceled our sin dead at the cross Colossians 2 14 we were crucified with Christ Romans 6 6

01:33:22

He only did that to the for the elect and when you go to Romans 7 for something very important is there

01:33:32

Therefore my brethren you were also made to die to the law through the body of Christ So that you might be joined to another to him who's raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit of God So we're made to die to the law right

01:33:46

Yeah Romans 7 1 or do you not know brethren that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives

01:33:57

For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he's still living But if her husband dies, she's released from the law concerning the husband

01:34:04

So then if while her husband is living she's joined to another man She shall be called an adulteress, but if her husband dies

01:34:11

She's free from the law so that she's not an adulteress though. She's joined to another man Therefore my brethren you were also made to die to the law through the body of Christ Doesn't say through baptism

01:34:23

The body of Christ when he died on the cross when he's crucified Romans 6 6 so that you might be joined to another

01:34:33

So we have died in Christ so we could even make the case. We don't sin anymore

01:34:39

Let me go a little step out along the limb a little bit Okay If we confess our sins, he's faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from unrighteousness

01:34:51

Now if we say we have not sinned to make him a liar as their word is not with us. All right So here's the thing

01:34:58

Can we as Christians ask Jesus to forgive us of our sins if we've already had all our sins forgiven?

01:35:04

That's just a thought -provoking question that we could discuss because it has different ramifications different directions

01:35:11

Okay, it says in 1st John 3 6 no one who abides in him sins No one who sins has seen him or knows him.

01:35:20

How is it possible that way if we abide in Christ, we don't sin Now that's a there's some ambiguity here and I could take these into different dendritic different branches

01:35:30

But it says the one who abides in him in him abides that means remaining and doing things

01:35:36

You don't sin and we get us some ideas, but there seems to be This idea that when we're in Christ, we died.

01:35:43

We died of the law We really sin doesn't apply to us anymore and that's called a now in the not yet, which is another Thought all this is inter interconnected all of its interconnected.

01:35:56

Let's get like a Dave Neff now Sure. I thank you for your time. Sure. Dr.

01:36:02

Slick and you know, I am just an obnoxious twit Yeah obnoxious twits

01:36:10

So obnoxious slick So, yeah, I want to thank you for your time and engaging and you know,

01:36:16

I keep searching. I'm a Christian well, you don't consider me Christian, but I am but you know,

01:36:23

I'm a Christian and I want to think well, I mean it's at least useful to see a

01:36:30

Deconstruction because so many Calvinists I talked to have no idea what five -point Calvinism is But you you seem to know your stuff right about five minutes, which is a lot

01:36:40

I'm looking at my Calvinism outline notes outlines on Calvinism. It's with index and Table of contents.

01:36:49

It's 89 pages Yeah, I have karma my like Desk is sorry

01:36:57

The bookmarks now, okay. I think it seems to be very useful. It is useful

01:37:04

Not just scenes It's amazing, thank you so much for a second.

01:37:10

Let's talk some other time about other topics Yeah, we should also get to the annihilation is with something because I want to hear your

01:37:19

Arguments against it now that I've not that I accept it But I've been strongly drawn to it because it seems to be supported by scripture and you know

01:37:26

The scriptures that God destroys the soul and those who don't don't have eternal life and those kind of things So it will get because I can respond to that but then we'll get another tangent.

01:37:34

Let's talk. All right Okay, Dave Neff, how you doing buddy?

01:37:42

Hey, I'm doing all right. Thank you. How are you? Good. Thanks. See ya So I don't have a whole lot of time but the first thing you guys were talking about Has always been a verse that really bothers me about the one where Jesus talks in parables to prevent

01:37:58

So the question I guess the first question that I have is how did Jesus speak in the parables? Prevent them from being coming quote -unquote saved.

01:38:05

What what how is that? Because I believe the answer to that which is concomitant

01:38:11

Well, it's asked by people who say if you believe in total depravity that they can't come to Christ on their own

01:38:16

Then why would he have to speak in parables because it wouldn't come to Christ Let's God grants that they believe Leviticus 129 and grants that they come to Christ John 6 40

01:38:24

John 665 and that was a good question. I just think about it and I came up with a response

01:38:30

When Jesus commands things it occurs because he's God if he commands that they believe to get a believe

01:38:36

He speaks in parables because they were not elect. He's hiding his words from the non elect okay, that still doesn't make a whole lot of sense and the

01:38:45

Gospel of Matthew Jesus comes to the world for the purpose of saving the world is saving the lost seed of the house of Israel But then he deliberately speaks in parables so that they won't be seen this seems to be a kind of perspective

01:38:58

Who's today though? But I mean, I don't understand what you mean by the day well

01:39:08

He was teaching to a large crowd now So he speaks in parables and he's saying and they say well, why do you speak in parables?

01:39:17

That took the 12 asked of that and he told them so they won't be saved That's why I said right so you agree with that, right?

01:39:23

Of course. That's what the text says You can't disagree with what it's plainly written. Okay, so you would also agree then that God doesn't want every individual to be saved well, obviously that seems to be a contradiction because then

01:39:35

You actually think that God would purposely create people to send them to hell that doesn't seem like an action of a morally just God He came to save the world as all the nations

01:39:56

He was sent covenantally only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel Matthew 15 24 the word world in John 3 16

01:40:02

God told the world to give his only begotten son does not mean every individual It means all the people groups and things like that.

01:40:07

The word whosoever there is not there in the Greek It's possum is doing all the believing one the word for who so ever or whoever is the

01:40:16

Greek word host It's not there in that that particular text It says God's love the world that all the believing one will not perish all the ones believing

01:40:24

It doesn't say whoever as if they have some, you know, natural innate ability to choose. That's not what the implication is there

01:40:30

So he's anyway back to Mark 14 12, he's speaking in parables and So the people will not be saved because there's certain people in the

01:40:40

Jewish nation that he doesn't want saved so this God Do you believe

01:40:47

I guess in double predestination where God elects people to go to heaven and elects people to go to hell? Because obviously it seems to be logically if you're not elected to go to heaven, then you're pretty much

01:40:56

Elected to go to hell that that seems to be logical, correct? Logical but I don't see any scripture that says they're elected to hell.

01:41:05

I only see election being referenced to the believers Okay, and in Romans chapter 1

01:41:11

God says that he gives up people to a reprobate mind So the question is what exactly is this reprobate mind if they were never going to become a

01:41:19

Christian or become saved to begin with? What's the point of giving them to a reprobate mind because they were already in a default state of reprobate?

01:41:25

That seems to be a reprobate mind means means truly evil because it's a there's a judgment upon their sin

01:41:32

Just because someone's not going to be saved doesn't mean they can't have more judgment upon them for their increased sinfulness

01:41:38

Okay, so that makes sense Let me ask you a question. Yes, you believe that God makes it

01:41:45

You know, I believe makes bad people stuff like that You believe he makes bad people just you know, even for the like the day of evil.

01:41:51

Do you believe that? Of course not I Just quoted Proverbs 16 for the Lord has made everything for its own purpose even the wicked for the day of evil resting

01:41:59

And it's interesting So that's what it says. So he does do that, doesn't he?

01:42:05

Well, I guess that's what the text says. So I guess that's what he does You can't disagree with what's plainly written.

01:42:12

That's right So what I do is I try and set people up I quote scripture without them knowing I'm quoting scripture and I disagree with what?

01:42:17

I'm saying because they disagree because they have an idea of how God's supposed to be And I'm trying to get people to say no read what the

01:42:24

Word of God says In fact someone like they're trying to set me up with a debate in December 28th. I don't have to go that late

01:42:32

They want me to debate Romans 9 with somebody But Anyway, I guess that's just anyway, sorry distracted myself.

01:42:43

So This is what the Bible teaches. I'm just quoting scripture, you know We can go through Romans 9 if you want we go through some various things, but that's that's it

01:42:50

You know, I mean, that's it. Yes. Jimmy's right night Romans 9 9 21 to 24

01:42:58

Okay One last thing before I have to go because I'm getting ready to go to another stream

01:43:05

Were you going back to the discord? Yeah, I'm going I'm going to talk to one of my friends about a debate that I had for just kind of dissecting it

01:43:12

Dissecting it and talking about it but um There was an interesting comment that we were kind of going back and forth on another stream of a few months ago

01:43:21

I guess it was at the topic of eternal security and my friend said something very interesting

01:43:27

He said that it should be it's impossible to go from a state of being unregenerate to the state of being regenerate to back to Being unregenerate and back and forth and back and forth

01:43:35

So largely it must be that once you are quote -unquote saved then it has to be you're always saved because it's impossible to go back and forth back and forth

01:43:47

You know, I apologize I didn't hear what you said the last 15 seconds I'm not trying to be rude. My wife texted me about something.

01:43:53

I was responding to her text and So I apologize for that so I should have liked you know what doing that could you repeat that please sorry about that Okay So about a month or so ago

01:44:03

I was with a I was on a stream with one of my friends and he said something interesting about internal security and I kind Of what your take on it

01:44:10

He said that it is impossible to go from a state of being regenerate back to being a state of unregenerate and then back to A state of regenerate and back and forth back and forth, right?

01:44:20

It seems logical that internal security is a logical necessity Yes, because you're talking about as a feature as a

01:44:26

Hebrew six five It's impossible again to renew them to repentance A lot of people think that that pericope means that they lose their salvation if that's the case

01:44:34

They can't go in and out in and out in and out. This is right Right Jesus says in John 6 37 through 40.

01:44:41

He says that the will of the Father's that Jesus lose none Okay And so if he loses not if he doesn't lose if he loses anyone then that obviously means in his will was not done

01:44:53

And then then Jesus failed to do the will of the Father What's common response then is well, they can lose themselves

01:44:59

But that doesn't make any sense got that right and Also if if that was also possible that would make

01:45:07

Jesus a liar, correct Right. It would also make him a sinner that he failed to do the will of the Father right and lost right?

01:45:15

So that that just doesn't make much sense. So so eternal security is pretty much a logical necessity for Christianity Yes, I believe it is.

01:45:24

Yes, it is. I'm gonna call my wife. Okay, I see because She hold on a sec, let me put you guys a mute for a minute.

01:45:55

It's still ringing. She's not picking up. Okay All right

01:46:08

She's gonna go do it run an errand at night and that's what enough She wanted me to go with her because I drive better at night.

01:46:13

I've very good night vision She doesn't but she'll be fine. So anyway, I'm sorry about that Dave. I really appreciate your patience with me

01:46:20

I really do, you know, I've known you for a long time. You're a nice guy I just kind of feel bad there, but thanks for being patient about that I wish

01:46:28

I had more time does a lot of things we can I can pick your brain out and we can Talk around rabbit holes, but I got to get going to another stream.

01:46:35

I really enjoyed the chat and hope to see you soon Okay, talk to you later. Okay All right, hey, hope you guys enjoyed all of that It's been almost two hours, but I'll stand a little bit longer

01:46:50

If you guys have any comments or questions you can add them you can type them in and We can so I can answer them or if not, you know,

01:46:57

I can bail Any videos any kind of debated you yet I don't know where I debated so many people

01:47:04

Catholics have but like the guy earlier today was Catholic or in this show I wish you had more more

01:47:09

LDS Mormons videos. There's your favorite particularly the ones are in Manti Yeah, so they don't do pageant anymore, obviously because you would get such a strong impact no doubt well, but they're do the pageant because of me they do the pageant be

01:47:22

I believe they stopped doing them because Christians from all over the world were coming in and Mormons couldn't handle it.

01:47:28

That's what I believe Okay, let me ask you guys a question that you guys listening in the chat text and stuff like that Do you like this what

01:47:37

I just did? Would you like me to do this kind of a thing every say once a week hypothetically say on Wednesdays?

01:47:43

Just just running it out just saying because I could be on at a certain time do an hour Have questions people could do this kind of a thing if you want

01:47:53

It takes a little bit for the responses come through because got to go through stream yard into the feeds Then you guys got to listen to it.

01:47:59

Then you got to type this up back. It takes a bit So Maria M. Garcia says yes Fa rule

01:48:06

Says sure Melinda sue partial Are you partial to something? Yeah, I'm she probably never heard that You love this maybe

01:48:16

I'll consider doing it on a Weekly basis. I like the idea of it being Videoed because I think it helps people and if I could get better at this

01:48:26

I want to be able to figure a way To get another feed of scripture in here

01:48:35

I can I can put the scriptures in and I don't think

01:48:40

I can do that without another computer Maybe I could have my laptop over here

01:48:46

Just thinking out loud and be on scriptures and go like this on my laptop and then come over here have it feed into here

01:48:52

And then I could click that and the scriptures could come up. I could do it that way I could experiment and I could show slides

01:48:59

But there is a way to share the screen. I could do it this way And I go like this see and I Could share the screen

01:49:10

So that's another way of doing things, you know, so that might be a good ideas there and that way

01:49:15

I could do things like this Yes, but can you debate the

01:49:28

Catholic scholars yeah, I can debate them bill Hey, come on How come it's freezing up?

01:49:36

That's weird. When's it pics? Oh, that's what happened. That's why cuz I hung on that thing There we go.

01:49:45

See The Bible reliable is it So I can do it like this oh

01:49:53

Yeah Look at that. Oh, that's good stuff That is such great stuff.

01:49:59

Look at that. Thanks PowerPoint See ya. I did a seminar.

01:50:04

I did this for that and try to make it nice and readable Hey all kinds of stuff.

01:50:10

I got all kinds of stuff Doctrine grid Doctrine good biblical theology.

01:50:16

I don't even know what these things are. I'm gonna be careful. Oh Yeah, I was working on this

01:50:29

Prophecies each I make it look nice. I Get all kinds of stuff All right

01:50:36

Back to the Bible. I need helpers Buried all the time nice PowerPoint.

01:50:44

Thank you Hello Matt Maranatha brother Glenn Roper, hey nice meeting you it's so tiny

01:50:54

Well, maybe because you know, you're on a small screen I Have three maybe four pretty soon three 27 -inch monitors 4k 27 -inch monitors

01:51:08

Do studies on scriptures you need help boy do I need help so long as not on a

01:51:15

Wednesday night, you'd love it That's what I was thinking about doing was a Wednesday night actually,

01:51:21

I Could do a Tuesday to These studies on scriptures you need help. Yes, I do.

01:51:27

I need a lot of help mentally, I Need lots of help. That is so sure.

01:51:32

I have a guy now who is actually running the email portions and he He's governing

01:51:40

Emailers and he's now getting email people to help and he works them all he's doing that. That's great

01:51:45

We got Charlie and he comes into the room like this and he helps govern the radio time

01:51:52

He does that my wife. She does the stuff that I hate doing like enter data entry and things like that oh, she does all that kind of stuff and But I need even more help

01:52:04

I need editors We need designers We need all kinds of stuff for the new calm site that we hope to have released by the end of the year

01:52:13

And it'll take another year to get all the stuff in there. Hey Matt. Good to see you live better. Jeff is raw.

01:52:20

Thank you You need corneas. We'll go get them. Do you have do you have on the car website the definition of?

01:52:31

Diothelet ism and monotheism dio. I believe is to mana was one. I believe so. Let me see if I do.

01:52:40

Come on Wrong Oh wrong link Let's see

01:52:49

Diothelet ism. Oh No, I don't it's I think just diathelet ism which

01:52:56

Jesus has two wills in in that one will for each

01:53:02

Nature doing my session with Matt. Oh, I see how that works. I can do that.

01:53:09

That is way to do that. Okay Di means to mono means one.

01:53:15

So leo is the Greek word for will so Jesus has two natures So they're therefore two wills, but the person only has one will and it's a mystery how all that works

01:53:25

That makes sense. Hey Charlie Hey And we've been on for a couple hours

01:53:32

Yeah, I got distracted. That's all right. No big deal We're gonna pray for your corneas

01:53:39

Joanne You have a cataract oh You have one cataract

01:53:47

You know, I'm so used to having great vision, I mean I have glasses now, I'm 60 almost 64

01:53:54

But I literally know I'm using a stream yard. I literally have 2010 vision which means

01:54:01

You had to be at 10 feet what I could read at 20 feet And it was so great and even up to about four or five years ago.

01:54:09

I could read signs Small letters even at night and now oh, it's so bad

01:54:17

Now it's down to about 20 30 I think with glasses it's still better than 2020 Anyway, please don't do

01:54:25

Wednesday nights. The reason I'd wake up early Thursday morning for woodland therapy session This didn't start until 1 a .m.

01:54:30

My time. That's why I asked you to do it Well, you could always watch the the after show. I'm gonna decide what

01:54:36

I'm gonna do it'll be Tuesday Wednesday probably not Thursday because It does not a group that does some

01:54:42

Thursday stuff and I may want to go in there every now and then so I'm thinking About Wednesday nights. You need the AG surgery for cataracts cataract happens almost everyone.

01:54:49

It's old age I hope they don't happen to me because I would go under Oh Tonight surgeries.

01:54:56

I would go into the night for my eyeballs, but they would have to put me out They had to give me something

01:55:02

Something that would make me happy and not care because the very thought of a needle I'm gonna start fighting.

01:55:09

Oh Jeez I couldn't do it. They'd have to give me some strong stuff some strong stuff.

01:55:20

I'm serious Have you talked to the guy who wrote the new King James articles? Yeah, I've talked to him talk to him a little time

01:55:29

Yeah, yeah, how's it going Luca it's gone great would you All right, they drug you up.

01:55:37

They don't know they see here's the problem. I have a super efficient liver I do

01:55:43

I have a super efficient liver They have to give me most a lot of stuff to make me go to the normal level of somebody else

01:55:49

So what I'm worried about they gave me something my liver just filters it out quickly. I'm well worried about that Mmm.

01:55:57

Oh, I hope I never have to do that. So I'm taking something for my eyes Lutein I Recommend you guys check it out

01:56:06

Lutein is supposed to be something you take for your eyes You take it every day for rest of your life and it's supposed to help

01:56:12

Stabilize your eyes, so don't get worse that kind of a thing That's not to say you're not gonna eat better glasses and stuff

01:56:18

But it's the idea of protecting your eyes and it really helps. That's what the research says

01:56:24

They can't put you under for eyes because you have to be able to cooperate. Oh That would terrify the crap out of me

01:56:33

No, they'd have to give me I mean super happy pills and tequila

01:56:43

Try to send Charlie super chat, but it did. Oh someone's in a chipper chat in here I didn't get to say thank you and all that.

01:56:50

Oh Who was that? It was earlier $50 to dang. I saw it.

01:56:55

I was gonna comment about it and got sidetracked. Oh, man.

01:57:02

Sorry about that You have dry eyes. Well, I can make it cry.

01:57:08

I Can make it cry That's right, darn, I think it is mention it though, right today, thanks,

01:57:22

I think I did Tequila, that's right. That tequila is the medicine they give when when when women have stupid as husband us

01:57:30

And they prescribe tequila And in some advanced cases vodka

01:57:37

So, you know just depends that's what I've heard. Okay Well, I guess it's about time to go

01:57:50

All right. I'll stop sharing. There we go. Oh, there he is Hey, oh, oh, let's get you back on there

01:58:03

All right, everybody I'm gonna get going okay. Hey What I miss what

01:58:11

I miss. Oh, let's see. Everybody said that I was right about everything That was always good

01:58:17

Ah so many times you missed it again Actually, one of the guys from a discord came in we talked about Catholicism for a while Then we talked about Calvinism for a while and you know, so Okay, well,

01:58:32

I hope it went well, I'm sorry I missed it. Yeah, well, thanks man. You gotta work early

01:58:37

Linda Sue partial So, what are you partial to what's your favorite? Good thing you're out of physical reach

01:58:50

I'd be like, hey, are you partial to this? I'd be all over it all the time. I mean I'd come up with partial.

01:58:59

I gotta find some ways to use it a different way. Well, I would yeah Well, was there anybody that wasn't able to?

01:59:10

Catch your regular show during the times. I just posted. I don't know. I don't know either but Anybody in here that we're not was not here during the radio show probably that's the time window there

01:59:25

Monday through Friday. Yeah PST and EST. Yeah, there you go

01:59:33

All right Many thanks to Matt being consistent defender of faith.

01:59:39

Praise God All right, everybody. I'll probably see you in the morning. Yeah Friday morning car morning meeting and I finished writing the second book of the cave series

01:59:50

Would you be interested in reviewing it? That means I have to read it. I Don't have to read it even my own stuff.

01:59:59

So see if someone else would want to review it in here Okay There's buying a car.

02:00:06

All right. Yeah, I got a rice another book. All right guys. We'll see you.