Live Q&A Session with Matt Slick, 10/29/2020, 9PM EST

Live Q&A on Catholic Authority and the Canon

All right All right. Now, here's another experiment. I've tried this a couple of times before in the past and We'll see how it works tonight. I really don't expect much difference but I Opened this up to everybody and I'm hoping that people will want to Participate in a live discussion thing.

One of the things I'm thinking about doing occasionally is to Do this on a regular basis, maybe Wednesday night and just do something like this so people can call in and get Put on YouTube and Facebook.

We've got people watching and As you can see and I guess you're listening. We have some people who You know are watching if you want to participate you have a question you have a comment And you want to ask anything?

All you got to do is, you know, just type in the text and I'll see it. Or you can come into the room and the URL all the information is there. So the reason I I was doing this tonight is because on the CARM discussion boards There was some you know, there's Arminianism versus Calvinism and as it's pretty typical the Arminians don't really Represent Calvinism very well, and they think they do and they speak Authoritatively when you're missing it here.

You're missing it there. I go to correct them, you know gently. So no, it's not a position or this is that you forgot this, you know, they don't learn and I thought okay. What's I think is better is to?

We'll do this okay inside of your stream yard and So what I would I'll say to them, you know, I say well if you wanna do this better Just have a discussion with me. So I offered to have people The Arminians to come in and and discuss the issue of Performed Theology so that's what I wanted to do and It you know, this people say we'll be interested and this is what's happened.

It's the third time I've done this in like six months. I've offered people the opportunity to be able to To come in and talk Facebook YouTube and live here in the In the stream yard room. Yeah streamer doing a couple three things or get a little distracted.

So I put this up a few days ago and people said they're interested and we'll see I'm hoping some of the anti Calvinist Come in. Yeah do is Is just open up to everybody so they have questions or comments we could talk and that's what I'm doing right now.

Catholic Questions About the Bible and Church Authority

So if anybody is there? Yeah, I have a couple of questions. Okay. Man, okay, so I don't want you. I know that you know, I'm Catholic and I am right. You're Catholic. I'm Catholic and I don't want to like be anti Calvinist because I respect them.

But I have a couple of questions and specifically with your of the scripture. You do a good job of a talking Catholicism. I don't mean this as a derogatory comment, but I haven't ever seen you give a response to how you believe.

Not how you refute the Catholic position, but how you believe we got the Bible without invoking any External source. I would like to hear one defense and I don't mean this isn't that's not my position.

So I'm not gonna defend it. Okay. So can you then articulate your position on how we got the Bible without invoking any external authority that will be called the church? Any kind not just guess no. No.

Well, wait, wait, wait. Wait. I'm gonna tell you is this That God worked through his sovereign will to give the inspired scriptures of the Jews. The church didn't give us the Old Testament. God did through the Jews and then God through the Apostles and the the believers recognized the Word of God in the New Testament and then it was codified and recognized through councils of Christians different times different ways and That's that's it.

That's my position. But did those people who codified by it have any authority to codify it it's not an issue of authority. See you Catholics make this mistake all the time. What authority do you have?

What makes you think we have to have authority? Where'd you get that? Do you think that any person has equipped to room to? Where'd you get the idea that we need authority? That's the question. Well, it seems to be definitional if someone Definitional it was definitional that we don't need any church authority.

I Didn't mention church. I said said just said any kind of authority to codify the books, right? I mean you admit that I don't have that authority to say that something belongs or doesn't. No, no, no.

No, it's it's you're not getting it. You're not good. I'm saying Catholics always do this. They don't listen. They don't really think through the issue. It's not an issue of authority. We don't it's not an issue of authority.

It's an issue of the sheep those who are regenerate recognizing the Word of God. This was this occurred in churches. It occurred among Christians. It occurred among councils. That's what happened. There was no issue of authority because if you're gonna say they had to have authority, I'm gonna say well.

Where'd they get their authority from? Do these is it self-appointed if they got it from God? Well, how do you know they got it from God because you said so. But is there some some rainbow in the sky that says look you've got authority to do this.

No nothing like that. The Catholics asked the wrong questions. Okay, but here's what my problem is with the view of just scripture alone. Ultimately for example when it comes wait, wait, wait, wait, you know, I just answered you and then you just dismiss it and go on.

What did I dismiss? Where do you get the idea that we need authority to be able to recognize what God's Word is? Because otherwise people would always have disagreements. Okay, where do we need authority in order to not because you have a reason that they you know that they might have disagreements.

That's not an issue of authority. What makes you think that we have to have somebody's authority in order to recognize God's Word? Did the church recognize the scripture and give it authority of the Old Testament?

No. Notatively defined what was all right, but it wasn't the church that gave us the Old Testament. Now, was it? No, it was other authoritative people. What authoritative people the Jews you said it the chosen people.

Which Jews? The twelve tribes who recognized those books. The twelve tribes recognize those books. So you're saying then that all the Jews recognize them or some of them did or didn't we don't even know just so you know.

No, I know exactly how they they recognized it. But it must have been some authoritative people. It wasn't just everybody like we agreed, right? So Presumably God imbued some people with authority to recognize where other people were mistaken because you for example Believe that Catholics are mistaken in recognizing Tobit as book.

So presumably they don't have the authority to say that those books are in. So who has that's my question just saying they don't. Sure, but for sure God does. God is the one. Jesus is God in flesh and Luke in Luke 1151 Jesus says from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah.

There was a first and last books of the Old Testament. He rejected the Apocrypha at that point. He said the law the prophets and the Psalms are about him. He talked about Luke 24 44. He didn't recognize the Apocrypha.

No, so we shouldn't Jesus had authority by the nature of who he was. Why did he exclude the Apocrypha? But would you say that the humans had a Role to play in recognizing the books. Why did Jesus? Reject the Apocrypha, I presumably he was referencing the Pharisee canon because that's the people he was talking with.

He said all that is written about me in the law the prophets and the Psalms. So he was saying that the law and the prophets and the Psalms are about him. Sure. We agree with it. All right. It says in Luke 24 44.

He said to them to the Jews These are my words which I spoke to you while I was still with you that all things which were written about me and the Of Moses the prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.

He excluded the Apocrypha, didn't he? Well, yeah from that statement. He did. Yes, he also excluded the book of Revelation from that statement, right? No, no, no. No the law the prophets and the Psalms are the Old Testament.

It's your one. No, it's the Old Testament like that, right? The Old Testament only came after Old Testament was known by the time Jesus was there. It was called Bible. It wasn't called. Oh, wow. Okay, look the Old Testament the Old Testament.

Jesus quoted the law the prophets and the Psalms in Luke 24 44. He excluded the Apocrypha. Where does the Catholic Church get its authority to include the Apocrypha when Jesus himself excluded it from God?

Well, if it gets it from God Then it better act like it got it from God and it certainly doesn't because it teaches so many heresies. The question I'm sitting here trying to ask you is why did Jesus himself exclude the Apocrypha?

He excluded it in this statement. He says all that's written about me in the law the prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. He knows what was about him. He knows the Holy Spirit the prophets everything bears witness of him.

He did not include the Apocrypha. He excluded it. He knew about it. He excluded it. He also said in Luke 1151 For the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who was killed between the altar the house of God.

And what he was saying is was from Genesis to Chronicles, but in that time They have the same books that we do now in the Old Testament. It's just the arrangement was different and Chronicles was the last book like our Malachi's last book.

So he was saying from the first to the last book of the Old Testament. That's what he was saying. He excluded the Apocrypha. So where's the Roman Catholic Church get off? Including it well from the same place we got when we included Revelation in the Bible, even though Jesus excluded it.

Did Jesus exclude it? Yes, he said so what he? Was he what so when he said from Abel to Zechariah? He's talking Old Testament when he says law the prophets of the Psalms is talking Old Testament. Well, he's talking about what was the Bible then there was no such thing as the Old Testament.

But either way take your right hand and put it in front of your face. Yeah, I know what you're gonna say slap yourself, but I was over the head. Being ridiculous. All you're trying to do is support the Roman Catholic Church.

Sure. I agree with that. But this is what I didn't want to. I didn't want this to turn into Catholicism where I want to hear you're asked. I did but what I'm looking for is What's your version like we understand this is ours and you think it's ridiculous and that's fine.

But can we hear an alternative and an alternative? I don't mean saying God did it because everybody every sect believes God did it. What's the means by which he accomplished and if you're gonna say that it's through some people then I'm asking Why don't you recognize the authority of these people?

He used that the Christian Church. Exactly. So Where is that church? Okay, whatever it was wrong question wrong question. All right. What is the church a group of believers. What is the church. Group of saved believers or believers.

The word church Ecclesia is used in several different contexts, right? Sure, of course. Okay. It's used in several different contexts. Let me do this word study on church. On karma. I Hope I'm not taking anybody else's time because no one else's is is in the room or that's waiting down I can see and so the church grid what you go to karma or church hyphen grid, right?

It's use of the body of Christ a gathering of people local churches people of God ecclesiastical body. And you say the church what you mean is the Roman Catholic Church. You have to demonstrate that the Roman Catholic Church is the true church with the authority of Christ.

Before you can even begin to ask that question. Okay, I won't ask that but whatever church you have in mind, where is it? It's not a church. See, look, it says the local church, right if he refuses to listen to them tell it to the church.

Which church is he talking about in Matthew 18 17 the Christian Church the Christian Church the local church. Was it was there a Pope at that point? No, not at that point. Was there a magisterium at that point?

Yeah. No, no, there wasn't no don't Magisterium, so if there was no magisterium, I don't understand then how do you believe that Apostles wrote inspired by God? Hold on there was no magisterium and Jesus is saying tell it to the church.

So which church is he talking about the Christian one? Which Christian Church? The only one that Jesus founded Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death and on that day of persecution began against the church in Jerusalem.

Yes, and they were all scattered. Is that the true church? That would be the Jerusalem Diocese as we call it the Jerusalem Diocese. What you're doing is you're imposing your Catholic view on the text, okay, it doesn't say that but that's what it has to mean.

According to your Catholicism. Okay. Sorry. Sorry. I understand that I understand but what I'm saying is it seems to be like we are in agreement to a certain point and then You kind of stop to say it's not Catholic.

It's not I'm willing to entertain that argument say it's not Catholic agree with you. But then I want to ask you where is that church and and just saying it's not Catholic doesn't which church. That Christian Church, which is referenced in those texts.

We read together. Wait a minute. What about Acts 11 26 and for an entire year they met with the church and oh. They were in Antioch and when they found him he brought him to Antioch and the entire year they met with the church.

Where is that church? It was in Antioch I get it, but that church is presumably the same church that was in Jerusalem teaching the same doctrine, right? No, there was a church in Antioch. There was a church in Jerusalem.

And how were they unified were they not unified? There was a church in Antioch. There was a church in Jerusalem and that's what we call diocese. Now. I'm asking you where does it say diocese? Where does it say say it's diocese where?

Well, the term is something we termed right to make it clearer. But what I'm saying is you do agree that the Antioch Church and Jerusalem Church were unified, right? Even though they were just they were unified.

They certainly weren't teach a Roman Catholic heresy. Looks like at Acts 1541 and he was traveling through Syria and Cilicia strengthening the churches. So just different churches. That's how that's that's how that's one of the main ways that this at the word church is used.

So so you don't agree that those churches were unified. I Didn't say there were or weren't unified. I'm trying to show you something Romans 16 1 Paul Phoebe who was a servant of the church, which is that centuria?

What is he there are different ways in which the word church is used it's use of the body of Christ. This is upon this rock. I'll build my church. It could be said. And the Lord added to the church daily.

Okay. Okay. So acts 15 is the great best example. Let me ask you the question. Sorry I want to ask you the question I understand that you also want to ask me questions and I for the sake of this argument I'm willing to concede that Catholicism is heresy, so I don't agree with it, but I I'm willing of course.

It's heresy. I can prove it. Okay. I I I'm not trying to be hostile because I've told you before I respect Baptist. Nope, sorry, Presbyterian. I don't respect that just Presbyterian. I'm joking. But look in Acts 15 the church Makes a decision presumably you believe this is an infallible decision to not allow the Judaizer Harris.

Great. Now, I want To say I believe it was infallible. You don't I didn't say you hear what I say. Sorry. Sorry, I said I did not say it was infallible. It doesn't mean I agree. It was or disagree. It was.

Okay, I think it was but fine. Let's let's put that aside. They came and made the decision now I want to ask you that church that existed then you want to call it the Christian Church. I'm fine with it.

Your body of believers. I'm fine with it, but a certain Structure or an association of loose structures with elders bishops and Apostles and Apostles, of course no longer are with us. You know may they rest in peace.

But the elders at least are right or at least elders are supposed to be. I believe you're an ordained elder as well. So now I want to ask you where is that church that church the body that head of the authority to make this issue?

Well, I just gave you an example the one that's 15 church. Yes, those people died. So that church ended died out that church in Jerusalem doesn't exist right now. So that church died out. That church does not exist right now in Jerusalem.

Does it so what was the point of continuing the faith if the church was to die? It didn't say what do we might a church the entire church or that particular church? Well the church that had the ability to make decisions.

No, it didn't have the church wasn't the thing that had ability. It was the people who were the disciples and the elders. Okay, so that you know what they said what they said therefore it is our judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from owing to Gentiles and that we write to Them and they abstain from things contaminated by idols and fornication from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

Yeah, so the Jerusalem Council said don't drink blood. Correct guys. Catholic Church does it? Oops? Obviously the Catholic Church is wrong. But Matt this isn't addressing the question of where that church is.

The church I just told you that church there does not exist anymore. So it died out. Why don't you want to say that it died out? I'm not say it died out because I don't know what that means. We say died out that it's seized existing once the last member of it died.

I just said it's see it's not there anymore. It's gone prevailed against which church. His church. No, you don't understand what you're doing. You're equivocating. There are different definitions of the word church, there's a local body.

There's the Universal Church. You are equivocating. It's a local church and acts 15 is gone. Then I say then what you'll do is you'll equivocate you'll say well then does that mean all the whole church is gone?

No, it means the local body in Jerusalem that particular church is gone. That's why it says apostles and brethren who are elders to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia. So there's different local churches if a local church Disappears, it doesn't mean that the Christian Church is gone.

They're different. The Christian Church means the whole body the local church means an individual congregation. The word church is applied in both sense. Do you have to be careful how you use the term?

Do you have acts 15 open in front of you? Yes, can you read verse 22? 22 then it seemed good to the Apostles and the elders with the whole church. Just a second. What does the whole church mean? Does that mean the local church right there?

What just a Jerusalem one? Yeah, yes, because you know, why? Why because Antioch Syria Cilicia were many many days travel away. So are you saying then that the church right there in Jerusalem was able to get all this information out, you know cell phone.

What they had Pony Express? But you're not with the local church. But you're saying that this decision was only affecting the local Jerusalem Church. They said this you said the whole church. You want me to read the word whole church?

You want to say that the whole church is all the congregations. I'm gonna ask you every. Every time I see how did they get the information to every church all over the Mediterranean area? Because their elders were gathered together in one place.

Where's it say that reads the beginning here it is. Let me let me certain people came down for. The church send them on their way and okay. So here it is when they were welcomed by the church then so and the Apostles and elders meant to consider this question verse.

Just second. Let me take a look at the whole thing. You're assuming the representatives of every single body of local church all of the Mediterranean area came to Jerusalem. You got a you got to show me that in the scriptures.

Let me see, okay, so so here it is, right. Paul and Barnabas were in sharp dispute. When they met people in Antioch, that's verse one, right? Here it is certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and we're teaching the believers this heresy.

This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed along with some other believers to go up to Jerusalem from Antioch. So this is the Antioch what we would call diocese, but if you don't want to use that word Antioch local church.

Sending Paul and Barnabas along with some other believers to go up to Jerusalem. To see the Apostles and the elders about this question. The church sent them on their way and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted.

So so here's an example of one local church. Sending to Judea their local elders to meet with the Apostles and the elders in the center to consider this so in this context the whole church does refer to at least Judea and Antioch and If these were the key foundations because Antioch is where they were called Christians and Jerusalem is where the Christ died.

So this would be like two main diocese. This would be like our equivalent of Constantinople in Rome, right? So I Don't see how you can maintain that. This is just a Jerusalem local church when it clearly says that they couldn't agree locally.

So they sent everybody to agree on the highest level. Am I reading it wrong? Yes. Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren. Unless you're circumcised, so they're false teachers from Judea.

Yeah, and Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them the brethren Determined that Paul and Barnabas and some of the others of them should go to Jerusalem to the Apostles and elders concerning this issue.

Okay, therefore being sent on their way by the church. They were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria. Describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles and we're bringing great joy to all the brethren.

When they arrive at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the Apostles and the elders now. Where does it say that representatives of all these different local churches were there? Okay, so I mean it doesn't say that that way of course not but it doesn't say it at all.

It just says they went through different areas and informed what's what about the teaching and stuff and that was it. Can you read verse third again? Verse verse 3 yeah. Therefore being sent on their way by the church.

Just stop right there. What's the church right there? I Don't know. I thought it would be the context to see that's the Church of Antioch sending them to the Church of Jerusalem. Okay, let's go with that.

So the Church of Antioch sent them to Jerusalem and So they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria now you're wrecking that just second. So by admitting this the whole church would refer to the two Greatest points right because remember Jerusalem is where Christianity was born and Antioch is where they were actually called Christians.

So you're agreeing that the whole church in verse whatever it was when I read it refers to at least two Greatest points of Christianity at that point, right? Well, it says being sent on their way by the church by the Antiochian local body.

So so when the Jerusalem, yes. So when the Jerusalem local body made the decision did this affect the Antiochian they sent him. He just said Paul Barnabas go take a look why? Because Paul and Barnabas needed to go take a look to determine what's going on because of the false teaching and would this doctrinal False teaching of in the decision of the Jerusalem Council, would it affect the Antioch's local church?

Probably ultimately so where is why why but why because who was there? Paul and Barnabas the Apostles and the elders were there in Jerusalem. So this is what I'm asking. Where is that church that had this authority?

Why did wait second the Apostles and the elders? Would you agree that the Apostles and the elders there are the ones who gave that church its authority in Jerusalem? Yeah. Good. Where are the Apostles today?

Apostles have died passed away. So then that authority doesn't exist anymore well. Well, what why did Paul have people like Timothy then if that authority was about to be seized? What was the point of instructing him?

How do I point out? Wait, wait a Apostolic authority is gone. Okay, but the elders are still there, right? Well, hold on. Would you agree apostolic authority is gone? Well in that sense, yeah that that the Apostles are good.

So they don't that's that means the authority of the Apostles is not for today. Is it? Yeah, it's not like it's not what Mormons teach that Apostles are still here. I understand. We're talking Catholicism.

So the apostolic authority is not not here today. It's not but then I wouldn't want to equivocate on the word because apostolic authority can refer to for example. They're apostles the Apostles. We know who the Apostles were they've died.

Because when they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the Apostles and the elders. That's where the Apostles were were in Jerusalem. Apostles passed away. Elders are still here, right?

Yes. So, where is it? Where is that church the Apostles and the elders so that church is gone, isn't it? Well, not if the elders are still here. No that church in Jerusalem is gone. Sure that particular those particular people are gone.

But not that the whole church right because the whole church has like for example. You don't you agree with their judgment right what they made in Acts 15. Sorry setting up a debate someone just talked about somebody else.

Okay. Well, I'm sorry I I don't want to occupy the time if you no, no, it's nobody else is here. It's just that. Someone trying to sit and go debate with somebody else something else. Okay, it's fine I mean, I I don't mean to take up with the whole time of the Q &A was easy.

I just typed it in good. Okay debating Romans 9 with a heretic. All right. So look you're not gonna win this one because what you want to say what you want you're doing is equivocated you and equivocated Equivocation.

Okay, then I'll just move on to the next topic that I do. You know what equivocation is I do. What is it. Well, it's using one term in one sense and then using it in another sense and pretending they are used in the same sense.

Right. Okay, where a word changes meaning in different usages. Yeah. All right, and so you transfer the usages in places. Yes you have to define what you mean by church and you have to show me from the scriptures that your Definition applies to any particular situation that you use it because this is critical.

This isn't just me being difficult. It's critical because the Roman Catholic Church claims to be the true church. Which I think is a demonic piece of crap heresy. I hate the Roman Catholic Church's false doctrines that leads people to eternal damnation.

I do and So that you had to prove to me from Scripture That this is the case when the Jerusalem local body Ceased to exist. It doesn't mean that the body of Christ ceased to exist because the body of Christ is called the church.

But that's what the church is that so would you say the church at large well. Then you would mean the Christian corpus all over the place. I don't have any problem if you say the church at large the whole church everywhere no problem, which is the body of Christ and it's consisting of Elders and it was a consisting of Apostles then the Apostles died then it's just elders and pastors and teachers.

And so Here is you asked me to justify it from scriptures Romans 16 16 greet one another with a holy kiss all the churches of Christ send greetings all the individual churches the local bodies send greetings great.

So where are they are all of them gone? Well, I've been to the church in Smyrna in Ephesus. I've been to Laodicea. I've been to the seven churches all of them and they're not there. I've been to the locations Colossae have been there not there.

So you are arguing that the whole Christian Church that was supposed to greet each other is not referring to people who? Who would continue in the faith, but just refers to local people alive at the time.

What context you're talking about? I said, I've been to those local those locations. I've been to them I've stood on the very hill that the tell of The Colossian Church. I've been to Smyrna. Okay, I've been to Laodicea.

I walked among the ruins. I've been to Ephesus. I walked the same road Paul the Apostle walked. So there so if you don't equate for example, the Church of Rome or the Church of Colossa to today's church.

How do you know that the teachings directed at them apply to you? I'm going to direct the teaching so for example if you're going to say that the Church of Rome or the Church of Jerusalem was a local church and They cease to exist because they're no longer here.

Huh? It was a local church. They were in Jerusalem. I got it I got it. But if you're saying that we aren't to be equated with them as the church and it's no you're not the Roman Catholic Church is An apostate sure fine.

I'm fine with that. But how do you know that? Sorry Sorry, you're still fine with that. Go ahead. I'm sorry. It's fine. It's fine. I I I know I'm Actually, I've been actually thinking about maybe Just I can you I can show you I can show you why the Roman Catholic Church is not true I can do it all kinds of different ways.

I Actually, I actually I I'm not like I'm not closed-minded. I'm open to changing it. I wasn't I for example, I've recently started exploring Annihilationist, but I'm very very Like your other hand to put in front of you.

Look, let me show you why let me ask you a question here I'm gonna show you whether on the Catholic Church one of the many ways to do this. It's not true. Okay. Does the is the God of Islam and the God of Christianity the same God?

No. Absolutely, not if someone said the God of Christianity and the God of Islam are the same God They wouldn't know they're talking about would they they're wrong, right? Yeah. So if some pastor, let's say some really, you know high degree pastor on TV nice hairs got a couple of Jets whatever.

You know. See. So you're just gonna bring the part of the catechism that says it's the same Creator God hold on doing a live discussion. Let's talk later. No, no, no, you don't have you don't have to do so.

Okay. No, it's fine. You don't have to Good all right. No, I don't want to take up the whole Q &A. There's nobody else here. There was somebody messaging you and you put but yeah, okay. No, no. No, it's on my phone.

Oh Yeah, so, um. He doesn't know I'm doing this. So if anyone were to say some big slick TV preacher All this TV stuff, you know, he said the God of Islam and the God of Christianity, you know. We both served and served at the same the same God.

All right, you go that guy's full of cry. You know what? He's talking about. You can't trust him, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah, I would say that This is paragraph 841 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims. These profess to hold the faith of Abraham and together with us. They adore the one merciful God mankind's judge in the last day.

Really. Wow. Catholic Church says that the Muslims worship the same God they do. The one merciful God. Okay, but just a quick. Do you believe that the plan of salvation includes Muslims? What's the point I'm making?

Okay, they adore the one merciful God. Do Muslims worship the one? True only merciful God. No, no, then why does a catechism say this? Because they recognize the same qualities we do in certain sense because they're wrong.

They're wrong. It's wrong. You The Catholic Church got it wrong. It's just wrong. I mean, I actually was an atheist before becoming Catholic. So I I. It's all this isn't actually helped me See the truth.

Here's another thing. Here's another thing that that's that's bad. Okay in paragraph 972 of the Catholic Church speaking of the church. Her origin the origin of the Christian Church. Okay, speaking of the church her origin her mission her destiny.

There's no better way to conclude to conclude than by looking to Mary. Is that true? Well, I think you've mentioned this before. I I think that as you said equivocation is is an important one that part of It says.

After speaking of the church, that's the church that Jesus bought her origin is bought with the blood of Christ indwelt by God. That's the origin the mission of the church is to hopefully convert the world and the destiny is to be in heaven with God.

We can find no better way to conclude that by looking to Mary. No better way that means looking to Jesus is not as good as looking to Mary. Go ahead and tell me why that Catholic Church is true. It's just one of many things I got okay, but.

So, yeah, we're just addressing random things, but I'll be happy to go and say that that um, I Think the context is important. Like if the first 2 ,000 paragraphs of the Catechism Spend their time or whatever it is spend their time explaining that Jesus is the one true God and after that they make it clear.

Right. I mean the context they are obviously is. Mmm that after Jesus, but before you interrupt me I would like to point out right that the logic that's used to attack Catholicism in that case for me is the same logic.

That's for example used to attack Christianity by Muslims. So, for example, Jesus says that of that hour. No one knows but the father and then they go no one means not even the Holy Spirit. Well, Jesus isn't talking about the Holy Spirit there, right?

Jesus is take by no one. That's not the Holy Spirit. It specifies that it's the angels the son and the Holy Spirit isn't talked about. So, I don't know why you would employ the same logic obviously in that through the context 9th paragraph 971 all generations will call me blessed the church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is Intrinsic to Christian worship show me that in the New Testament.

It's not there. The church rightly honors a Blessed Virgin with special devotion Revelation chapter 12 that shows the most special devotion to Mary than anyone where Mary is enthroned upon the skies and Literally crowned by the stars and such devotion is isn't obviously played there.