Two Live Reports from the SBC in Nashville

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:35

Greetings and welcome to the dividing line. It's um, it's not the day we're supposed to be doing the dividing line, but Long story short

00:44

We just decided we needed to move it to today actually, we were supposed to be picking up our travel rig today and I Won't go into details, but hopefully tomorrow

00:58

Don't wanna go there, but the point is that Much is going on in regards to the

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Southern Baptist Convention yesterday's presidential election Yesterday's resolutions the resolutions committee the the head of that committee and the comments that were made and then today the resurrection of the resolution calling for the abolition of human abortion and the amazing

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Specter of the ERLC, Denny Burke and What you might call the deep

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Southern Baptist state Standing against this resolution and this leads us directly to the issue of the reality that a lot of us are not aware of that I wasn't aware of for a long time and that is that there is now a pro -life industry

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That Refuses to call abortion what it actually is and hence is

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More than happy with a restriction here a restriction there a restriction here a restriction there

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Meanwhile, the Holocaust continues of black babies and Hispanic babies and white babies and every other color of baby

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While the idea is well, if we can restrict it here we restrict it there rather than just simply calling for its abolition in Toto and Especially when that involves

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Identifying it for what it is murder and the people engaged in it as being engaged in murder

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That's where the pro -life industry Simply says no, we will not go there women are just victims

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And of course, we know that many of these women are nowhere near victims. They are rejoicing in what they do, but Be it as it may the resolution had not even been brought to the floor and then

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I Believe it was brother Askell who not Tom Askell's brother brother brother brother anyway

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Gave an impassioned plea and it was resurrected by two -thirds of the the folks in the in the auditorium and so it was

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Debated today last night the the pro -life industry came alive

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Seeking to argue against it. Like I said, Denny Burke put a whole series up the

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ERLC argued against This from the floor This is it another fracture point fault line shall we say that is becoming clearer and clearer as Time goes by And my understanding is while the resolution passed it was in the words of Jeff Durbin gutted by an amendment others say weakened but So our hope

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Now is to have Tom Buck join us initially Via zoom and we'll get his take on the elections on the

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Southern Baptist Deep State and Everything else and then hopefully we'll be able to get hold of my fellow elder

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Jeff Durbin who is also at the SPC and in case anyone's wondering no apology is not an

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SPC church by any stretch of the imagination But he was doing some speaking and he was working with the

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Southern Baptists who are seeking To end abortion now, and of course apologia is the home church of end abortion now so that's where that connection came from and So I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of stuff to talk about along those lines

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I've heard a haven't heard anything yet. So I'm just waiting for rich to give me a Sign that Tom has been able to get to a location

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Where he can actually have a good enough signal and hopefully Sufficiently low ambient noise

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To allow a meaningful conversation to take place if I recall correctly a couple years ago when we had him on He ended up outside.

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I hope he doesn't have to end up. I don't know what the temperature is in Nashville I can guarantee you he would not want to be outside here in Phoenix, Arizona right now

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It's actually not It's it's cooling off. Oh 113.

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Okay. All right It's only 113 degrees in the shade

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In in Phoenix right now. So there you go It's actually the amazing thing is I think one of the reasons it's been when you were walking in Did you notice that it was orange?

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if you look at the sunlight there's a Yeah, yeah, there's a major fire over Near a town called globe up sort of North Northeast East Northeast of the valley and the winds are carrying all the

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Smoke right into us. And so I think that's one of the reasons we haven't set a bunch of new high records in here in Phoenix So I am sort of watching a few other things at the same time

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So if I look like I'm not paying attention it's because I'm actually distracted by the fact that Jeff is texting right now and I'll see what he has to say and then we're just watching for the opportunity to talk to Tom Buck Obviously the election the major thing that was on everybody's mind was who is going to be elected as the president of Southern Mass Convention But before that vote took place and it was a very close vote

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Many of us outside of the convention who have Close friends and People in ministry that we that we work with all the time in the convention

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Could not help but see what was going on I have said for a while that the

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Canceling of the convention last summer and Simply giving a third year to JD Greer Was probably suicidal on the part of the convention in the sense that the president has a great deal of influence over who is a is placed on various committees and And What I Saw anyways, and we can confirm this and we get a chance to talk to Tom what it seemed to me anyways

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Was that? the committee That was in charge the resolutions committee.

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It was in charge of bringing these resolutions of floor, which I understand is a challenging a challenging thing but Was pretty much

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Made up politically by the people assigned by JD Greer and as a result

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Especially any type of pushback on Resolution 9 from two years ago, which opened the door to The acceptance of utilization of Critical race theory

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That whole pushback was in essence flushed

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And so you you saw that taking place so rich says that he he has someone on zoom who is a troublemaker from Texas and So I'm gonna put my earpiece in here and see if if rich can make things work

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Hello troublemaker from Texas Hey, oh man, you're wearing a jacket

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I Am can you hear me that we don't know we weren't able to do a test. Yes. Yes, you sound fine

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Okay, I mean, of course you're demonstrating the standard error of placing a light source behind your head you know, which makes you look evil and Things like that I can close this

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I'm just yeah, and probably wise because because when you do that It does sort of you know, it's the the

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Darth Vader type thing Anyways, well, thank you

10:05

Tom for Taking some time out. I imagine it's been pretty wild there over the past about what 36 hours or so I've been sort of watching from the outside and I was just giving some of my thoughts

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But you're there on the floor What have you seen? Taking place at the

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Southern Baps convention. What are your overall thoughts as it stands right now? well, it's

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Been an interesting week to say the least and someone asked me at the beginning of the week what would be the worst -case scenario and what

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I'm Said would be the worst -case scenario has ended up being the case.

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Okay, so for me that would be that the

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Messengers were not given an opportunity to address resolution 9

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Which would include that our resolution which we had over 1 ,300

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Co -submitters, which I don't know if if that's ever happened before right of the resolution that we had on the incompatibility of Critical race here an intersectionality with the

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Baptist faith of message, which I was I helped author that and write that And was a submitter so that did that didn't that they just squash that didn't bring that out

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So those two kind of things go together and then if Ed Litton was elected as president

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That would be the worst -case scenario for me and all of those things took place right, right now so I Obviously, I've seen some of the conversations and some of the video clips and stuff like that.

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What was the excuse that? Was given the reasoning that was given for not allowing that resolution in regards to CRT I I saw someone saying that it was dealt with in another resolution, basically

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No, it wasn't. I mean then if it was they didn't even mention the letters

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CRT the only time it was mentioned is when the president of the rest or the head of the resolutions committee the chairman of the resolutions committee made a cringeworthy statement

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Saying, you know, he gave a lecture when we tried to bring see Resolution 9 up gave a lecture that he wished that some of us were as passionate about the

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Gospels We were critical race theory and then said he didn't find critical race CRT anywhere in the Bible But yet he said he did

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Christ reigns or returns triumphantly And so I responded by saying that remember when

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Paul Said that I wish people were more passionate about the gospel than they were being against the

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Judaizers, right? I mean, that's it's just an absurd false dichotomy, right?

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But that's what they do. And then when they were asked about the resolution They said as you typically get

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Baptist turn charismatic and they talk about how they were led of the Holy Spirit and they prayed as if no one who

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Submitted this resolution the 1300 people didn't pray not led of the Holy Spirit I get so tired of that kind of language that sets the people up to go

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Yeah, we should trust them because they have prayed and bled of the Holy Spirit. So anyway, right they gave no more excuse than No more reasoning than that so that obviously

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Everybody at the top everybody at the ERLC everybody in JD Greer's office they were well aware of the fact that there was a pushback on resolution 9 from 2019 and that there was a large movement of people that wanted this addressed, but Is it fair to call this the

14:00

Southern Baptist deep state now? In the sense that especially given

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JD Greer was given three years to solidify this this deep state situation

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Well, I mean, here's the thing and you can you can determine after I tell you what happened You can determine where you classify that as deep state

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We were very open about what was going to be done. Tom Aspel was very open that he was going to give a make a motion

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To rescind resolution 9 they were totally prepared for that. In fact at one point when

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Tom made his statement regarding that JD said well, give me a moment to confer turned around and came back read read from a statement

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They had a statement that was prepared It was clear that James Merritt had his statement prepared.

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I don't know how long he worked on that acronym he might have needed to take a few more days on that one, but He they were prepared to say what they were going to say so, you know

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I mean that's the power or the advantage of being in control and the power of the stage because They get the last they get the first and the last word and they get to take as long as they want to To you know to filibuster or whatever so They were prepared

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They had all their ducks in a row and the people on the floor were prepared that were against these things

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They called for the question at times very quickly on a couple of different things so that they could end the discussion even though they knew that we wanted to discuss more and that Had directly to do with Resolution 2 which is what they replaced our resolution with That came out that inherently is not bad

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But it did not say enough and it did not address CRT so that obviously took planning and forethought and everything else

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I heard that stuff going on in the morning and but I didn't know what that was going to mean as far as the afternoon election and so when when the voting took place for For president

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What was it like in the hall did you did you have a feeling at that time? What direction things were going because there ended up having to be a runoff?

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and so was there what were what were people saying especially when it was determined that there had to be a runoff and in fact that it was between Stone and Litton and that a molar had only gotten a relatively small percentage of the votes

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Yeah, very early on. I sense that dr. Moeller was in trouble You know, he's a friend of both you and me in the sense that we had a brother.

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We love and respect But it was clear that he was in trouble And what

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I mean trouble that he was not going to get a lot of support I based that upon the fact that when the nominations occurred how people responded after that I was

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I was shocked somewhat by that because I thought that really about the support of Mike Stone and so two or three weeks you've had a

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Smear campaign. Yes, like none other that I have ever seen true against Mike Stone Even the night before there was a weird situation that occurred where this and I'm not saying that that was set up I don't know and I certainly want to be careful speaking of this this

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Woman I would say young lady, I don't know, you know Summer and I actually talked about on the dividing line yesterday by name.

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So don't don't worry. Don't worry about it We did discuss it. So yeah And she she needs to be a person who is protected not someone who's being abused by being used in the way that she was

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Used in that situation, but it was very clearly aimed solely at him in a public context

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And there had been other things I don't know if you heard Doug Wilson's blog and may blog where he talked about Baptist baseball

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But he did a great job in analyzing the allegedly leaked letters That came out from from Moore After he had resigned from the

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ERLC. And so yeah, I mean this was this is like watching All the drama that takes place before the major political conventions and things like that It was the same same playbook except it was being done in the

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Southern Bapst Convention So there was all that stuff going on and so But once it came down to once you saw the numbers

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Of the initial vote did you did you run some some? Statistics some algebra and go stones got a good shot because I did because I might

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I'm just sort of naively Thinking that the mole that the molar votes are gonna split and they're gonna break for stone and They it was really close,

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I mean, what was it? What was it 60 a 60 vote difference something like that? Okay at what point at the first voter of it not the end at the it was it was no

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It was more than that, but it was less than 600. It was 500 and some okay, but that's still I think a

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Minuscule amount of votes when you consider three weeks almost of ongoing attacks and Smear of Mike Stone and he still or he won if you will he received the most votes in the first round, right?

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by about the same margin about 600 and then he ended up losing so Here's what we can say without any doubt the supporters of Albert Moller elected ed lit

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Yeah That there's no doubt of that I'm not saying Al Moller did but his supporters the people that supported him ended up swinging to vote for Lytton Because and I spoke to some that did

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And of course Randy Adams was more in Mike Stone's his supporters were more than smokes

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Mike Stone's camp They certainly didn't vote for Lytton They because Lytton is way over here, right?

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Lytton is going to be a disaster. He's theologically Sloppy to say the least in what has already came out with what?

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Yeah Today, yeah on Twitter, which amazingly I must live for rent -free in these guys heads because I tweet and it gets changed in Minutes almost but he has already been interviewed ed

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Lytton has by the Houston Chronicle and I don't know if you've seen this or not, but they asked him on the ordination of women and Here was his answer

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He said the Baptist Faith and Message does not address ordination

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It needs to be approached first step by the associations But we're going to try to keep it within the boundaries as much as we can

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Then he's then he said He does not think now. He doesn't think the

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Baptist Faith and Message addresses ordination Then he says that the FDM doesn't need to be tweaked

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Because there needs to be room in the debate and I'm quoting for less narrow conceptions of complementarianism.

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So it's very clear Ordination of women is not addressed in the Baptist Faith and Message Let's leave it to the associations

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But less dare not tweak the Baptist Faith and Message because we need to leave room for women ordination

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How else can you read that? So this is what we all said was going to happen. He's not conservative

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Whatsoever, and I was interviewed by the New York Times and they said we're ultra conservatives

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I said I'm not an ultra conservative if I'm an ultra conservative everybody in the Baptist Conservative Baptists in the past 25 years or ultra conservatives.

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I am standing where we have stood for 25 years These guys are progressives at best and they're leading us away

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From where we were at the conservative resurgence because we left the liberals behind when they were ordaining women

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Now we're moving in that direction We're not ultra conservative. They're progressive and Moderates and that's what

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I believe is the case so If history repeats itself, and I said this on Twitter earlier if history repeats itself

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What you're gonna see are Is the pressure? Will start building up for modification

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And it starts the way that you just described it well, we're gonna leave with the the associations da da da but eventually the pressure builds up to Get the the

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Baptist Faith and Message in line with where history is going Obviously the terminology will be

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Opening up opportunities of ministry for women and and getting on the right side of history and all the rest that kind of stuff

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Historically, that's how it has happened in every other denomination over the past hundred and fifty years that we have watched march down this road and Obviously at some point along the line

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A split takes place and somebody says no We can't go there that the one group that has tried to hold itself together despite all that are the

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Anglicans and I just don't know how much farther that can even go I mean, they've got female bishops and and people blessing same -sex marriages in the whole nine yards

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And it's just a part of the DNA of Anglicans to try to find that the middle road

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The problem is that that middle road keeps going left left left left left. That's not part of the DNA of Baptists at all and so So we have this taking place

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What's the what's the trigger point where I mean already? I know there are some churches just like okay, that's it

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We're on our way someplace else, but is there a trigger point that that says

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Okay, that's it We we all need to get together and do something different Well, that's the discussion that's taking place right now

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And I'm trying to be as careful as I can be because I've got to get back and talk with my elders We've got to talk with our own congregation, right?

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I definitely don't I don't want to signal, you know from afar what we're gonna be doing right

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But here's what I here's what I can say without any Hesitation we can't keep doing what we've been doing for one thing

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This is a distraction for me from my own congregation and for my family

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I don't this is not what I desire to do. I'm the pastor I want to pastor a church and as I told

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I haven't been in politics in the past I told the New York Times this morning that We elected conservatives

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To take to do the job of watching and protecting our institutions so that we could do our job

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They need to be doing their job so I can do my job But conservativism has failed in the

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SBC Conservatives I should say have failed us in the SPC and the proof of that is

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Ed Litton was able to be elected They have failed us tremendously Danny Aiken tweets out supportive

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Ed Litton and he didn't even have a clue That Ed Litton and by the way when he supported him said he's the guy for me

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I said not from my standpoint Which when you consider that they teach standpoint hermeneutics, right?

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They're it tells you all the problems in the world with that seminary But he didn't even take the time to check and see that this that Ed that Ed Litton doesn't even have a good

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Strong solid statement of what about the Trinity on his own website, but yet we're supposed to trust

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I mean, that's what you would think the president of it of a seminary in the Southern Baptist Commission would have the instinct to do before they would go and say he's the man for the hour a man who says that the

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Father Son of Spirit are co -equal parts of the one God, right? We're in deep trouble in the

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SPC and if we take what happened with the lack of support for dr

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Moeller you do have to wonder if the mantel's been passed to Danny Aiken and if the mantel's been passed to Danny Aiken We're in big trouble.

26:31

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Well, you know, I was gonna ask you about the abortion stuff, but we've actually got

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Jeff Durbin Will be will be hopping on with us and he was working with brother

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Askell on that stuff And and I don't know if you ran into him at all there No, I've been trying to meet him and I I've been unable to meet him

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Nobody will connect me with Jeff Durbin and he may have told them don't let Tom Buck get within five inches

26:58

Well, I will definitely communicate your desire to get to meet him when we talk just now or in our elders

27:08

Little chat thing that we have whatever we'll make sure to get you together and let me say one thing about that And I said this earlier

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I wish that the leaders of the SPC would be as concerned about a

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Resolution to abolish abortion as they are about protecting resolution not right, right, right

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Yep, and to have to have the ERLC speaking against it from the floor and everything else

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Amazing thing, but we'll we'll talk with Jeff about that. Well, so is so it wraps up today. Is that is that how it works?

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Lord willing And then you're you're gonna be heading home and And then after that we still got to talk about whether you're you're still brave enough to actually

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Have me come by Lindale with my if I ever get my fifth wheel set up and the the

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Alpha Omega Roadshow Stopping stopping by Lindale, but you did tell me that in Lindale now you have

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Chick -fil -a, right? We do have Chick -fil -a now So, I mean you you can come and stay in and have every pleasure that you need in life right there

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Well, I hope that I can also get you to Canes. We have a close Canes, too so that's it so rich tells me that as soon as Tom left us

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Wirecast crashed and So, I'm not I don't know if that means that it just went blank or Just what but he's telling me we're back on I don't know

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I'm going to assume that we are or at least that we're recording and we'll be able to upload this or something I don't know. So if I sort of stopped in the middle of a sentence or something like that That's what live webcasting as is all about.

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That's just sort of sort of how it works. So We're trying to get hold of Jeff Durbin and I sent the

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I sent the link To Jeff to see if he can join us so that we can sort of get to the other aspect of the story and that is the

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The fact that there were Southern Baptists for the abolition of human abortion who presented a resolution that was not initially brought to the floor and then a

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Impassioned plea was was made and two -thirds of The delegates messengers,

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I'm sorry is the term the proper term to be used To Tom just texted.

29:46

I killed the DL. Yes. Well I'm not sure you really have that power but Something did

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I don't know what actually I'll Take that back. I My phone told me yesterday to expect

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Wow, what is this you are alive on YouTube? Yeah, but I got him.

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I've never gotten a message on my phone before it said you are alive on YouTube That's weird.

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It's a little freaky a little scary but I got a I have a app on my phone that warned me of possible telecommunication disruptions today due to a solar storm, so Tom caused a solar storm.

30:33

Well, okay We Tom gets blamed for pretty much everything so we can go ahead and throw that one out if you if you want to Join on in We'll see if We'll see if if we can get hold of Jeff But as I said two -thirds of the messengers had to vote to instruct the committee to bring the resolution to the floor

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Which they did and so it was brought up today and so while Rich and I were

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Sitting around wasting half of our day today I Was watching and watching and watching to see what was gonna take place.

31:17

And so with that Let's find out what did take place. Uh -huh a

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Face I have seen up close and personal more than I can't hear him though.

31:30

Rich. Can you can you hear me Jeff? It looks like you're muted.

31:43

All right. How's that? Ah, that's okay. I'll never hear out of that ear again. But yes good Okay Okay, yeah

31:57

It's it's Chinese. What do you want? Yeah, just it does whatever it wants It's gonna mute you all the time because it doesn't want to hear what you have to say

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Every word right now. Oh, they are and we hope that they are convicted as a result

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That's that's our desire. Okay, so we had Tom on he sort of went through what happened yesterday and the

32:15

Politics and the resolutions and everything else and then I've told what I know and that is that the resolution

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Who was the primary? Sponsor of its primary writer of the resolution that was voted on today

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Well to my knowledge There's a number of people who were on it there's a lot of people who are behind it a lot of pastors supportive of but Bill Askell Dusty Deaver's or two of the

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Primary guys behind this. Okay, and so it was a bill That made the the appeal to the gathered messengers and had somebody holding a baby next to him.

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That's it Yeah, yes and that that resulted in a two -thirds vote from the messengers to instruct the

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Committee to bring the resolution Forward today is that's right. Okay. All right.

33:06

So that's Bill Askell who is Tom Askell's brother, right? That's right Okay, so founders is everywhere.

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I mean, they're they're very very busy and and and and doing their thing and in essence

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What was different about this resolution? than the vanilla

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Pro -life stand that has been taken by the SBC in the past So this resolution was actually really it was really well written

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It provided biblical definitions provided clarity. It tried to address inconsistencies this resolution was essentially a truly consistent

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Christian worldview applied to the area of abortion and that's that's the best way

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I can describe it's providing proper definitions Defining the role of the gospel in this

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Defining sort of the the role of the church in this and so I think it was a really well -written

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Resolution and it in it should have passed I Think with anybody who's a believer that believes in the authority of Scripture who understands that the gospel is the answer to this

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They should easily vote. Yes on this I think the problem is is that we have as Christians been so indoctrinated by our culture and Unfortunately by the pro -life industry not the pro -life movement.

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That's the people who are principally pro -life, but the pro -life industry that is sort of worked on the

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Christian mindset in terms of how do you address the issue of abortion and I think it's important people understand when we talk about this

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The pro -life industry has in a doctrinal statement undergirding it and I use that term doctrinal statement because we know what that means

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They have a specific worldview they have a particular set of beliefs about What's wrong is?

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Abortion murder is the woman guilty. What's the solution? How do you end this long -term goals short -term goals all that?

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And so what I think is important to recognize is that one of the major Hitches in this for people is we have allowed for 50 years the pro -life industry

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Who professes to be neutral in this fight not committed to Christ not committed to The Lordship of Christ a biblical worldview the gospel we do we've allowed them to lead this and so many of us have just assumed

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That's our team. These are the ones who are trying to end abortion and we don't understand That the incremental approach that they have been doing for so long and even the long -term approach about ending abortion is in opposition to Much of what we believe as Christians on this issue of abortion.

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I'll give I'll tell you what I mean by that when we talk to the Standard pro -life industry leader.

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They'll tell you a we are not explicitly Christian and our commitments. We're not doing this as Christians We're not standing on the

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Word of God. This isn't a gospel issue for us And when you talk to them, they will very very proudly say this is not a secret among them

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This is so this is what their position is consistently across the board They believe that mothers who kill their children via abortion are themselves victims

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And so in all of their opposition this past year to the bills for equal protection for all human beings starting from conception

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And all their opposition they have said consistently and every single time we are not trying to end abortion with any penalties

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For the mother or the parents who were involved in this because they say that they believe that mother and baby are

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Both equally victims and what that does from a Christian standpoint a gospel centered standpoint

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Is it robs women? Who are post abortive and it robs women who are going to have abortions of the gospel message itself?

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Because what they're saying to women is that you're not guilty for killing your child. You don't need Christ in that I call this the fatal flaw of the pro -life industry

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And so that's underneath all of this we talk about the approach to ending abortion All of that the sanctity of human life the pro -life industry is not is not trying to end abortion

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In a sense of criminalizing it abolishing it In the same way say you would with slavery or sex trafficking

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They say things like we want abortion to be unthinkable and to that I say

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Well, the only way it's going to be unthinkable is if we have a change of heart and you can only do that through the Gospel and a consistent

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Christian message, but I don't just want abortion to be unthinkable I want abortion to be a crime like slavery like sex trafficking

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I would like sex trafficking to be unthinkable and I would also like it to be a criminal act the abortion sorry, the pro -life industry approaches this from position of neutrality and from a position that is

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Fundamentally flawed and inconsistent with a gospel message. They say the mother is

38:02

Innocent that she is a victim like the child and so they do not want to ever have this ended be a criminalization

38:09

Like it used to be in a society that was influenced by the gospel you can look pre -row and even see currently in states across the

38:19

Union that Abortion is still seen as murder and homicide and a criminal act in the

38:24

States those laws many of them never been changed and they're still on the books and The pro -life industry also approaches this seeing

38:32

Roe versus Wade as law and it was one of the things that Was difficult for me to hear sitting in there just now when you had somebody who was opposed to that to this

38:42

Resolution they essentially said that they said, you know Roe versus Wade made Abortion legal in the

38:48

States. In fact, it did not it's a court opinion and the states who had legislation on their books criminalizing abortion

38:58

Actually if they agreed with Roe they had to actually change the laws of those states

39:04

They were supposed to change the laws of the states because Roe versus Wade Does not create law Congress creates law in our nation not the

39:10

Supreme Court So we we don't understand how our law works in this nation And one of the ways to highlight that is is this particular point during the last election?

39:21

resident Joe Biden did a Town hall and there was a young woman that came up and she was concerned with another four years of Trump and what that would mean for Roe versus Wade But the people he's adding to the court and all that and so she was concerned like what if Roe versus Wade is overturned?

39:38

And Joe Biden understands the law in our country better than many pro -life industry leaders

39:43

He said that when he becomes president, he wants to give Roe versus Wade the force of law, right?

39:49

He said that Because that's true in our nation it says in our constitutional documents that that Congress creates law

39:57

It's not the Supreme Court The Supreme Court has made many many fallacious court opinions and they've been resisted by the state's many times even during time of slavery of the the court case of Dred Scott and In that case the state's resisted the

40:12

Supreme Court's very evil opinion And that needs to be done at the state level and the issue of abortion.

40:18

So I'll just say finally to this One of the things that was actually kind of disheartening to hear was one of the the vocalizations of opposition against the resolution was if we pass this

40:33

Resolution, which everybody says we agree with it abortion is murder. It's a sin. It's a gospel issue

40:39

We need to abolish it if we pass it then these pastors are going to have to go back home and have

40:46

Essentially one perspective on this and that's consistent with the resolution This is murdered and needs to be abolished and essentially say all of our past pro -life moves

40:56

You know, we were wrong on those and this is what we're gonna do and only this I thought to myself is it is it is it a

41:05

Christian virtue to say that I was wrong and that I was To not say that I was wrong to not say that I was inconsistent or we did something

41:13

Inconsistently like if we spot an error in our thinking if we spot an inconsistency

41:19

If we see that an industry that we've been paying to fight this is inconsistent and in many respects

41:26

Fundamentally opposed to the gospel itself and to Christian commitments if if we see that that's a problem

41:31

Aren't we allowed to say we need a course correction. We have to fix this We've got to approach this consistently as Christians And so that was that was disheartening to hear that one of the objections is we're gonna have to go back and say that we

41:42

Did this wrong? Well, you know, is it wrong? To point out that if Roe vs.

41:50

Wade is overturned Tonight at midnight that tomorrow Abortion will still be legal in many states across our

41:58

Union because of the pro -life Legislation that's been put into force. In other words when you put in pro -life incremental legislation

42:06

That says you cannot kill a baby in this state past 18 weeks or 22 weeks

42:12

It actually puts into the force of law that you can kill a baby in this state under 22 weeks or 18 weeks and that's pro -life legislation or we have

42:23

Let's let's give an example of two Recent victory bills in the state of Arizona that were put forth as pro -life incremental legislation in Arizona Kathy Harrod opposed my legislation our legislation for equal protection for all humans, which she says she agrees with She opposed it because she said mother and baby are both victims themselves

42:46

So she doesn't want any penalties. So she said well, let's vote on this one So she put forth legislation that was pro -life incremental legislation that says you cannot kill a baby in the state of Arizona for the reason of genetic abnormality

43:00

They called that a victory but it's it's just an irrelevant bill because all a mother or father has to do in the state of Arizona is say

43:07

I'm not Killing it because of a genetic abnormality That the Down syndrome doesn't bother me

43:12

I just want to kill it So it's irrelevant and that's pro -life incremental legislation that they think is praiseworthy

43:18

But is in fact irrelevant all a mother or father has to do is say I just want to kill the baby

43:24

Another one that she put in that is pro -life victory Legislation is that you have to give your baby a proper burial after you kill it which isn't difficult for Planned Parenthood to do all they have to do is just put into the price of the abortion a

43:39

Proper burial for the baby. It's not as though the mother in Arizona has to go to the funeral or has to handle the body

43:45

It's just packed into the price of the of the abortion. It's not something that's a victory bill and further one of the things that was done in Arizona is the pro -life industry decriminalized abortion in the state of Arizona and This is where I'll stop and I'll let you maybe ask me more questions

44:02

What she did was she put forth this pro -life incremental legislation and inside the bill

44:07

She also put repeal of 13 -3 604 What is that?

44:14

That's the law in Arizona that existed free row That said that abortion was a crime and that if a mother did it she'd be criminally penalized

44:23

Well, the pro -life industry doesn't want women to be penalized for abortion because she's not guilty.

44:28

She's a victim as well so in her incremental legislation She not only put things in that were irrelevant

44:35

That don't do anything to stop abortion and that still allow for the murder of healthy children in the state of Arizona she put in a

44:43

Portion of that bill that actually decriminalized abortion for the woman in the state of Arizona.

44:48

So the pro -life industry Decriminalized abortion in the state of Arizona. This this is what they considered a victory bill

44:56

And it's victorious for them in the respect that they don't want to see women ever penalized for abortion

45:02

Right, right. So now you've used the term a number of times before we go to what happened today and Your description of the gutting of this resolution a number of times you use the term

45:14

Incremental sort of assuming everybody knows exactly what you're referring to there But I think that's where people don't understand they don't understand where where the lines are drawn

45:25

Just just briefly What's what's wrong with Incrementally dealing with abortion over against seeking to abolish abortion

45:35

That's a good question. So notwithstanding the doctrinal issues in this debate that the pro -life industry holds to that are fundamentally opposed to a

45:44

Christian Perspective on this when we talk about incrementalism what we're talking about is they'll say well like Kathy's bill

45:51

They'll say you can't kill a baby For because it has a genetic abnormality

45:57

So that's what they would call an incremental legislation They think they're incrementally bringing down the number of abortions in the state for incremental moves, you know

46:06

I'll give you another example an incremental move that they think is very victorious which they opposed three years ago and now they're

46:13

Fully behind in many respects because it's passed in some places. They'll say things like we have a heartbeat bill the abortionist has to show or allow the the the mother

46:26

To hear the heartbeat of the baby and they'll say well That's an incremental bill that will maybe bring down the number of abortions the only the problem with that is

46:37

What you're what you have to admit to when you move forward with this incremental legislation say take

46:43

Kathy's for example You can't kill a baby for the purpose or because of genetic genetic abnormality

46:50

You have to say you can kill a baby if it's healthy So you're making compromises and concessions?

47:00

where the The tragic end of it is not a small issue.

47:05

It's it's the it's the end of human life You have to make compromises and concessions that fundamentally undermine your profession

47:14

And your commitments if it's human life from conception and we want all human life

47:20

Protected then we can't move forward with legislation that ultimately undermines that that commitment

47:26

And so I'll give you an example of where we would never do this and it just shows I think we've been worked on by our culture

47:32

We would never say Say with sex trafficking because everyone holds the same perspective on that because of Christianity sex trafficking is immoral

47:41

Kidnapping and rape is immoral. You can never do this. It's a disgusting wicked thing. And so we're all unanimous on that.

47:48

Can you imagine? Fighting against sex trafficking by saying You know, you can't sex traffic children over the age over the age of 13

47:59

That's that's an incremental approach to sex trafficking, right? you know, we won't allow any sex trafficking for anybody over the age of 18 or An incremental approach to sex trafficking would be with somebody something like in a similar way

48:14

You can't sex traffic children with Down syndrome Now we all recognize the error of that approach in the area of say sex trafficking

48:25

But we for some reason don't recognize it in the area of the protection of human life

48:31

And that the great I think Inconsistency here and tragedy is that pro -life organizations often say at the start of the conversation

48:41

We believe in the sanctity of all human life and we believe the human life begins at conception now

48:47

That's an indisputable fact of biology It's consistent, of course of the Christian worldview. We're all supposed to herald that thing that truth that Human life begins at conception.

48:57

The problem is is the pro -life industry does not Want all human life to have equal protection and I'll give you an example of this and this goes to the incremental issue

49:09

And how this starts to unfold? If you were to ask the leading pro -life industry leaders right now

49:15

What do you think should happen to the mother who took her twin girls and drowned them in the bathtub

49:21

They were six years old. What should happen to that mother? They would all say unanimously She should she should have to face justice for that, right?

49:29

What happens what should happen to the mother who kills her five -month -old baby in the womb? and The answer is well, she's a victim

49:39

We don't want her penalized and it goes to show the fundamental flaw the fatal flaw in the pro -life industry and their approach here

49:45

Is they're not consistent and that inconsistency undermines our fight to end this moral evil

49:53

Okay, so here's here's the question then first I see well the resolution passed and then

50:00

I see Statements saying but it was gutted. So what what happened?

50:07

So there's a portion of the resolution So the resolution if you read it encourage everyone to read it actually is is

50:13

I think it's very well done It's very consistent. It's something that you could preach on a Sunday in terms of these are these are consistent biblical truths

50:21

And it's application of those truths The There is a portion of the resolution that really tries to address the error in the incremental approach and the kind of devastating impact that has and actually criminalizing or abolishing abortion or bringing equal protection for all humans and it talks about the incremental approach and So what gutted it is there was there was an appeal to essentially change language in one portion

50:49

That's sort of like a happy middle space and that's essentially I don't have the

50:55

I don't have the resolution in front of me But essentially they added the word alone So we're not going to focus on Incrementalism alone, but also abolition so ultimately it just essentially guts it because it essentially

51:14

States that Incrementalism and how we've been approaching it is still a valid option

51:19

But we'd also like to do abolition and we'd like to you know, work towards ending this ultimately

51:25

There are a number of issues ignored in in that approach and and that is all of the erroneous

51:33

Unbiblical thinking that's that's underneath the pro -life industry and how they approach this But it also ignores the the challenges presented to us with an incremental approach the inconsistencies the the the wrong approach to how law works in this country and Ultimately the fact and this is this is a

51:51

I think an important element I've stated it already, but the incremental approach that these pro -life bills are putting into into states

51:59

Will keep abortion legal in the states because it provides definitions You can have an abortion at this stage, but not after this stage

52:08

You can have an abortion If you can't find a heartbeat and I just want to say back to the heartbeat issue

52:15

When you put a bill in a state, that's a pro -life incremental bill that says if You find a heartbeat.

52:23

You can't kill it question is this and there's a number of professional people who do ultrasounds that I know very personally that'll tell you it's very easy not to find the heartbeat and You're trusting abortion facilities who are paid to kill children.

52:40

This is their business You're trusting them to find a heartbeat and to allow the mother to hear the heartbeat.

52:48

This is their business This is their industry. They kill babies for a living. And so when you when you tell

52:55

Planned Parenthood Find a heartbeat and you can't kill the baby. They don't find heartbeats, right?

53:01

And also I wanted to say this final thing It's just another it's another It's another issue that comes up in this

53:06

Planned Parenthood loves these incremental legislative moves like this like say a heartbeat bill

53:12

Why is that? Because it puts the smaller mom -and -pop abortion facilities out of business

53:17

Because they can't keep up with all the regulations like wider hallways use this kind of tool

53:23

But not that kind of tool you got to have an ultrasound machine it puts the small mom -and -pop abortionists out of business and it actually

53:30

Strengthens and increases the size of Planned Parenthood because they have the funds to widen their hallways and to use these instruments

53:37

But not these instruments and so sometimes oftentimes these incremental steps actually make Planned Parenthood's business larger

53:46

Wow, hey, so All right, so let me let me mention

53:54

Tom Tom Buck just sent me a tweet. Let me read it to you and get your reaction to this

54:00

It's it was sent to Tom Askell and Tom Buck if Tom Askell if you and Tom Buck do not practice church discipline

54:08

Against all the women and the fathers who had an ectopic pregnancy Terminated to save the life of the mother then you really don't believe the resolution.

54:17

You just supported you lied This is from Eric Eric shoemaker. What would you like to say to Eric shoemaker?

54:24

Yeah, it's it's um, it goes to show that Unfortunately, a lot of people haven't engaged this issue with the depth of thought and desire to understand

54:34

That you maybe would do in resolutions concerning CRT And what

54:41

I mean by that is that what we're stating here with with the resolution to abolish abortion

54:48

Is here's the definition human life at conception. Here's the definition. This is sin

54:53

Here's the definition. God calls this murder. Here's the definition It's a gospel issue all those those different issues and what we want is equal protection for all human beings now

55:02

When someone hears that they they should understand, okay, that's consistent with the biblical worldview

55:09

And so what are the implications and then ask questions about the implications for example? Do you believe with this this direction of abolition that it's ever appropriate to attempt to save a mother's?

55:22

physical life If there is something that's broken something in the rare cases where they they can't correct the issue

55:32

Can we ever try to preserve life it when there's an ectopic pregnancy or something like that and the answer is of course we can

55:39

But that's that's a that's a rescue operation. That's not an abortion at will That's not a throwaway of a human life.

55:47

What we're what we're actually doing in a case like that is usually going to a hospital and To save the live of the lives of the baby and the mother when we have

55:58

Just take for example this Oftentimes you might you might have an issue in a pregnancy where the baby's life is in danger or the mom's life is in danger

56:07

And what typically happens? with a right state of mind is Mother father and baby go to the hospital to work on the preservation of the mother's life and the baby's life

56:18

And the doctors in those cases are working to preserve Both the life of the mother and the life of the baby and in some cases rare cases unfortunately the fallen world this happens we have to make a determination with a car hanging off the cliff and Mother and baby are inside and you have a moment to save a life

56:39

Do you try to save a life? Absolutely. Does that mean that there's gonna be a loss of another life?

56:45

Yes, but that's a complicated issue that happens in rare cases where you're working towards the preservation of human life

56:51

I would say that kind of argument about a topic pregnancies Is maybe has strong emotional appeal but not logical appeal and it's not even something that argues against this resolution

57:03

This resolution is providing definitions and it's providing goals and it does not ignore the fact that in a fallen world

57:11

Sometimes you have to work towards the preservation of human life to the degree that you can only save one life

57:18

And so it's I think it's a it's a silly argument. Ultimately. Yeah, well and An apology at church.

57:25

We know about ectopic pregnancies Yes We've got yes have experience.

57:31

It's interesting James my my wife and I we've lost We two pregnancies one was with twins and It's interesting because my wife had to get a

57:43

D and what is it a D &E? Yeah, what you call it? Yes, it's it's it's it's the similar to the procedure that they do in abortion at will to kill babies in the womb

57:55

And what's interesting is in the case of my wife when we lost our twins. She had to go to the hospital

58:02

She had to go to the hospital To have a procedure to save her life because both babies had died in the womb

58:09

They were overwhelmed essentially It was essentially like cancer that overwhelmed both babies and she had to go to the hospital to preserve her life

58:18

She had to have the babies removed from her body but she went to a hospital for that and that was the goal was the preservation of life and Of course, the first thing was to say is there any way to save these babies lives?

58:31

and so It's interesting You know in a case like this when when someone has to argue against a position like this

58:40

By bringing it down to the most rare cases In a situation we can do nothing about And using that to argue against this this entire resolution which provides biblical definitions gospel centered goals

58:55

I think it shows the weakness of their position and they haven't really thought through this issue or Engaged with people on this side.

59:01

All right, so it's unfortunately, but it means we have a lot of work to do. So real quickly What is

59:07

Bill Askell say? What are they? What what's the next step? I I'm still

59:12

I'm still here and I was actually Gonna try to connect with Bill here before we leave There's a lot of people here thousands of thousands of people here

59:19

So I'm gonna try to touch touch touch base with Bill in just a few minutes here and check in with him. Okay?

59:24

well also Tom Buck is looking for you So I told him Just watching the tail end of that when you're on with Tom and I'm not ignoring him

59:34

And I've been trying to beat him to you as a matter of fact I was literally two inches from him earlier, but he was too busy to talk to me.

59:40

So it's his fault not mine Well, okay, I've done my part

59:45

I I've I've told you he's safe I've told him you're safe It's good

59:52

So hopefully we can get you all together We'll say this brother to encourage you so I've been here since Monday and Exhausted.

59:59

I'm really really tired, but God's done some amazing things here. We've got some new connections to get some bills of equal protection in a different states,

01:00:07

Louisiana and Florida some great things have been happening as a result of being here

01:00:12

But I'll tell you this since Monday till now I can't tell you how many hundreds and I mean that literally maybe more

01:00:20

Hundreds of people that I've run into just lines of people that have been expressing their gratitude for the

01:00:28

Ministry of Apology at Church Apology of Studios the teaching ministry that's changed their lives Transformed them and of course many people are always mentioning

01:00:38

I was watching Pastor James and now I learned about you and I've learned about youth and went to Pastor James.

01:00:44

So Tremendously blessed. I mean, I just can't tell you how many people have just given

01:00:50

An overwhelming blessing to how much God is using these ministries. So praise

01:00:55

God. Yeah, excellent Well, I really appreciate you taking the time I know you are you must be tired and but we wanted to know what had happened with that particular resolution and what it meant and so I appreciate you doing that and bringing us up to speed and So, are you preaching

01:01:13

Sunday? Supposed to be uh -huh. Okay, I think I think I might need to be thinking about something because This is the chamber this would not be the first time that Jeff goes goes someplace figures he's gonna be oh so cool and go ahead and preach and then

01:01:31

Yeah, not so much on Saturday night. I get the phone. I Have it ready. I have

01:01:37

I have a three and a half hour flight tomorrow home Just finishing up the last part tomorrow

01:01:45

Yes, I just want I just want to point out that that we actually dismissed service at 5 55 p .m.

01:01:58

Nope we got everything done and we're out of there at 5 55 p .m.

01:02:03

Just I personally would feel gypped Okay, all right fine

01:02:15

All right, well, thanks Jeff for joining us today and Keeping us up a speed and we'll

01:02:20

Lord will and we'll see you Sunday one way or the other All right. God bless Better have something ready for Sunday Jeff Jeff always

01:02:38

Schedules More than Jeff can do it's better than being lazy. I can guarantee you that but yeah,

01:02:44

I'm thinking what? So I want to I want to jump in here real quick on his comment regarding the ectopic pregnancies.

01:02:52

Yeah, because You know, he kind of went a long way around it, but ultimately it's a red herring the entire the entire example

01:03:03

That's because the baby can't survive one way or the other right and that's the problem in all these examples that This entire movement no matter how subtle they try to be

01:03:15

They keep bringing up these life of the mother You know what? You're just using that as a way in which the doctor can write down on a piece of paper

01:03:23

Her life was in danger. Why was her life in danger? I don't have to actually list that I just have to say it

01:03:30

Doesn't have to be true and it's it's all a red herring in order to work around it and The fact that Arizona repealed a law that was clear in the process of doing good and trying to correct

01:03:51

You know step at a time baby steps Really that was that that was really amazing to me when

01:03:56

I found out that they had done that was yeah And that it was the pro -life people that did it. That was what was just so there's very little on a very little bit of Honesty going on here in in it and that example shame on that person shame on them

01:04:10

Yeah, and by the way, it would be it would be Eric Schumacher. I said maker, but then

01:04:16

I looked at it and it's Clearly a German spelling. So sorry about that Eric, but you were wrong anyways

01:04:23

Anyway, alright, so there you go. We went a little bit over time But I really appreciate Tom Buck and Jeff Durbin for just jumping on real quick We didn't want to go too long today, especially because I know

01:04:34

Rich is gonna have to do some repair on the the file And so the more complicated the longer we go the more complicated that becomes so apologies for that So, I don't know what the rest of the schedule is gonna be like tomorrow's

01:04:48

Hopefully Lord willing gonna be taken up with something else something exciting something challenging. So that makes me nervous But as things develop, hey,