Baptism: Reformed Baptist / Lutheran

You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

Sheep among misfits, a misfit in the trailer park at night.

A misprint with the six cents, been sick ever since my brother died of an O .D.

My two cents never made sense, either to me or anyone else inside of the sheep fence.

My 9th Smith on my right side.

Why you staring at your cop dot sign and my John Hancock on the dotted line?

Tell me what's the bottom line?

The bottom line is I'm not right.

I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight.

There's nothing left but the spotlight.

Hold my beer, you can find me in the moonlight.

You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

I'm wits in the deep end and I can't find my assigned seat to sit in.

My theology don't fit in.

Black sheep of the Reformation sheep pen.

To the Reformed, I'm just another Baptist baptized again.

The bastard child of Anabaptist.

Host to child of Reformation society.

We don't need your education.

Give me a Bible and a bookshelf of dead men.

Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans.

Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men.

Making Reformation great again.

You can say what you want.

You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

You can say what you want.

You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

No, you won't around me.

All right, ladies and gentlemen, we are live.

Thank you for tuning in.

My name is Jeff and this is Open Air Theology.

I am one of the elders at Covenant Reformed Baptist Church here in Tallahoma, Tennessee.

If you're ever around this area, please stop by and hang out with us.

We have a full meal after every service.

That way we can have a conversation, talk theology, make fun of each other, and all that good

stuff.

Well, as you can see, my other co -hosts are not here tonight, but I do have a guest, and I'm going to

let him introduce himself.

Yeah, I'm Sean Russell.

I'm the local Lutheran for this episode.

You reached out and wanted a Lutheran on, so here I am.

I've got a bachelor's degree in theology from California Baptist University, so hoping that

that does some good in this discussion, and yeah, glad to be here.

Yeah, well, it turns out that he used to be a Reformed Baptist, and

he's left the Black Sheep Gang, and he's moved over to

the other side of the ball field where they baptize babies and all that other

good stuff.

I made sure to—I actually didn't know that I had it on until I—.

It's just by God's providence, my Credo over Pedo shirt.

Well, it's actually showing my journey from Credo pointing to Pedo.

That's what it's actually showing.

Yeah, so him and I got on here a little earlier just to figure out the

format and have a conversation, and it's been a joy so far.

I made a comment on someone's post, and I can't remember exactly what was said,

but I was having a disagreement with another guy, and Sean chimed in, and I

challenged— well, not really challenged, but the other guy was getting really hardcore on

me, and so I invited him on the podcast to have a conversation, and then

I asked Sean, and he gladly took me up on that offer.

I was supposed to have this last week, but I had a dentist appointment, and they really jacked me up.

I came home in a lot of pain and unable to talk really well, so he was kind enough to let me counsel

last week and to have it this week.

But yeah, so let's get into it, man.

Do you want me to go first on my position?

Yeah, go ahead.

Okay, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, so like I said earlier, so I hold to what's called Baptist covenant theology.

It has been coined as 1689 federalism.

I don't call it that.

Personally, I used to, but every time I would, I would have to sit there and explain

what that meant, and so I find it easier to just say Baptist covenant theology.

A great majority of Baptists hold to basically a Presbyterian view of

covenant theology, a classical covenant theology with baptism stamped onto it, kind of like a Band

-Aid, but, you know, whenever you're fully emerged in water, Band -Aids seem to not stay on

the body, and so as I'm working my way through covenant theology, I have

found that Baptists, reading the older works, had their own view of covenant

theology.

So that's what I hold to, and basically, just to put it in a nutshell, we believe that the covenant of

grace is the new covenant.

So I would see that the covenant made with

Adam, Abraham, Moses, and David, all those are a covenant of works,

and that when Christ came, He fulfilled those covenants.

Therefore, we're living in the blessing of His fulfillment,

that is, in the covenant of grace.

And so the key verse that people go to is Genesis 3 .15, and I'll read that real quick.

Genesis 3 .15, this is God pronouncing a curse, which is a blessing to

us, but a curse on the serpent.

He says to him, I will put enmity between you and the woman,

and between your seed and her seed.

He, speaking of her seed, shall bruise your head, and you

shall bruise his heel.

So right here, when it comes to covenant theology, we all agree that this is the

proclamation of the covenant of grace, right?

Presbyterian covenant theology would say that this is where the covenant of grace begins.

So Adam is the only one under a covenant of works.

Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic are all different

administrations of the covenant of grace.

But when I see this, I see both a promise and a fulfillment.

The promise is a seed is coming from the woman.

A seed is coming.

The fulfillment is when the seed bruises

the head of the serpent while only bruising his heel.

Everyone holding to covenant theology, even dispensationalism, I'm not sure what Lutheranism holds, you can

explain that if you want, would say that this is, the fulfillment of this is Christ on the

cross.

When Christ was crucified, that is when he bruises the head of the serpent while only bruising his

heel.

Now, to speak about continuity and discontinuity, this will bring us into my

view of baptism.

So continuity will be the things that are alike in the new

covenant, the old covenant and the new covenant, and discontinuity will be how they are not alike.

So in the old covenant, whenever a male child was born, he was in

the kingdom.

He was born.

He was in the kingdom.

And then eight days later, he would receive the covenant sign, which is circumcision.

Now, as a new covenant Baptist, as someone who's in the new covenant, who has a

Baptist framework, particularly throw that particular Baptist thing in there, but particularly

for my Baptist covenant theology, I would see that we enter the new covenant

by faith.

We entered the kingdom, that new covenant by faith.

And then comes the sign of the covenant, baptism.

So the continuity is in both covenants, there's an entering into the kingdom and there

is a sign.

The discontinuity is in the old covenant, they enter in through

birth.

New covenant, it's the new birth, being born again.

Old covenant, it's circumcision for the sign.

And new covenant, it's baptism for the sign.

And I want to also point to, and I'll end it with this, just to show

my view real quick.

In John chapter three, I'm sorry, not John chapter three,

forgive me, Matthew chapter three.

Verse 11, John the Baptist speaking.

He says,

So right here, I just want to point out that in this one verse, Matthew 3 .11, there's three

baptisms.

One is literal, like in water.

John said, I baptize you.

Right here, it says, I baptize you with, excuse me.

Yeah, I indeed baptize you with water.

So that's the literal baptism in water.

But he who is coming after me, speaking of Jesus, he baptizes you with the Holy Spirit

and fire.

All right.

So these two are the figurative sides of it.

Spiritual, you could say, right?

So Jesus is going to baptize some

with the Holy Spirit and he will baptize some with fire.

And I would see this fire as judgment.

You look at verse 10.

It says,.

That fire, I would say, is hell.

Also in verse 12, it says,.

And so I would see that fire as being hell.

So in verse 10 and 12, those two fires are

figuratively speaking about hell.

In verse 11, that fire baptism is also speaking about hell.

It's sandwiched in between those two.

And so this Holy Spirit baptism is what I'd see whenever

someone has been regenerated through faith.

They receive the Holy Spirit.

And so I'll end there for now.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot in there that I agree with.

I would say that the sign of the new covenant isn't given

to non -believers.

I would agree that we receive the Holy Spirit

at regeneration.

I don't know if you had a different order for that, but if that's what you meant, yeah, I would agree with that.

I would agree that only believers are

members of the new covenant.

But obviously, there are some disagreements as well, or else we'd both be Baptists.

We'll get into that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

For those who aren't familiar, this gigantic book

is the collected confessions of Lutherans here.

It's huge.

We're just comparing how big they are.

So I'm not going to be able to go over everything that is said, because there's multiple,

over a period of like 60 years, they wrote multiple confessions that talk about the Lutheran position on

baptism.

But I'll go to a few key texts.

One that I would start with, we're probably going to go to this later,

but Acts 19, starting in verse 1, says, And it happened while Apollos was

at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus.

And finding some disciples, he said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?

So they said to him, We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.

And he said to them, Into what then were you baptized?

So they said, Into John's baptism.

Then Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on him

who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

So there you have Paul being very confused, that they said,

Hey, we don't even know

whether there is a Holy Spirit.

And Paul's immediate confusion is, Well, what were you baptized into?

So he gives them a water baptism, and they

received the Holy Spirit.

They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

They received the Holy Spirit.

And this is, I would say, the doctrine of baptismal regeneration.

Regeneration being born again.

You don't even have to go to the Greek to hear it, just in the English, that re being

again, and generation being from the same root as like Genesis.

So when we see that word regeneration, we're talking about being born again.

It's significant in John chapter 3, where Jesus is talking about being born of

the Holy Spirit, or being born of water and Spirit.

I believe he's talking about baptism there, that that is how you are regenerated, through water and the Spirit.

I would say at the same time.

And that's because baptism is for the remission of sins.

I mean, it's a doctrine so important, and so universally accepted in the first couple centuries,

that we see it in the apostles and Nicene creeds.

So a quote that I got from Luther is, what else is the remission of sins, but

salvation and life from the dead?

Like, what else could that mean?

If you have your sins remitted, you're saved.

You have life from the dead.

I mean, what more can you have?

So when we ask like, who are the proper recipients of baptism?

We're not asking, well, can they make a confession of faith, or

are they old enough or anything like that?

We'd say the proper recipients of baptism are sinners.

And since Romans 5, says that we're all sinners from the very earliest days,

then even the youngest children are proper recipients of baptism.

We actually had a really cool moment at church this year.

My son was born on Christmas Eve.

And so on the Sunday, the Sunday...

New Year's Eve?

I mean, New Year's?

Well, it was the Sunday that he was able to go.

So like the next day, Christmas, was a Sunday, but we couldn't make it.

We're still in the hospital.

And then the Sunday after that, we baptized him, which is really cool because in the liturgical calendar, that

day is the day where Jesus was circumcised.

And so pastor had a really cool analogy right there in front of him.

Like, hey, I got an eight day old kid right here that we're baptizing, which was

one of many reasons I pushed for it to happen so quickly.

And so, yeah, in that moment, Lutherans believe that they have their sins

remitted.

They have their sins washed away and that they

received the Holy Spirit.

This is also the promise that, you know, I know your

Presbyterian friends that you go back and forth with always like to talk about Peter's sermon in Acts chapter

two, where, let me find it.

Yeah, it says, then Peter said to them, this is starting in verse 38, repent and let

every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.

And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit for the promises to you and to your children and to all who are far

off, as many as the Lord, our God will call.

They'll look at that and just stop at, well, the promises to you and your children.

So your children are part of that.

But I remember as a Baptist looking at that and saying, well, it keeps going.

I mean, he says to you and your children, to all who are far off.

So if that promise is just talking about some kind of outward covenant that you have

available, that it's for everyone, everyone can receive that then.

But the specific promise that he's saying for the promise

is right before that.

Repent, let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And so the offer is be baptized, have your sins washed away, receive

the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3 .5 refers to this as the washing of regeneration.

There's multiple Old Testament imagery where we can look to.

Isaiah 44 .3 says, For I will pour water on the thirsty land and streams on the dry

ground.

I will pour my spirit upon your offspring and my blessing on your descendants.

It's just notable that in pouring out the spirit, he's also pouring out water.

That's the analogy.

And so when we say that, you know, we believe in

regenerate church membership, we don't have to say, well, this

person is a member of the church through baptism, but we don't, you know, they're not necessarily

regenerate yet.

They haven't had faith yet or whatever.

We'd say that baptism is where God grants the baptized faith as part

of regeneration, being born again.

And so we don't need to make that distinction within the covenant because

as Paul says in Romans, you're baptized into Christ's death.

So, I mean, what more could you ask to be baptized in?

We don't.

Yeah.

Well, what more can you say?

You're baptized into Christ's death.

So you're not just baptized into some outer covenant.

Christ's death, as we know from the institution of Lord's Supper, when

Christ says, you know, this is the new covenant in my blood.

So if you're in the new covenant, you're in the blood of Christ.

There is no distinction.

So when we say that this is a baptized, regenerate, filled with the Holy

Spirit, all those things, person, that person is in Christ in every

way that I am in Christ.

And so there's, I mean, that's more or less baptismal regeneration.

Right, right.

All right.

Well, you definitely said a lot of things that I disagree with.

As we knew.

Yeah.

The head was up.

Yeah.

That's why we're having this conversation.

And so you mentioned some verses that I know we're going to walk through.

And so I want to kind of point out, and we don't have to answer these yet.

Sure.

But just some areas.

So for some reason, my computer seems to be OK.

Here it goes.

So I would say that the promise in Acts two thirty eight is the Holy Spirit, that it's not the promise

isn't baptism.

I agree that the promise is of the Holy Spirit.

OK, good.

All right.

Cool.

All right.

And so would you say that that John's baptism

was.

I mean, like the text says, it's for the remission of sins.

Yeah.

OK, so is that salvific?

I would say that John's baptism is pointing to the remission of sins.

That's why I brought up the acts.

What was it?

Acts nine that we're talking about, because Paul clearly says that these are two

different baptisms.

Yeah.

But it wasn't.

I mean, like so when Jesus tells that that that the the lame man

that was carried in by his friends.

Right.

He was lowered in into the roof and his friends were expecting him to heal him.

But the first thing he says to him was, your sins are forgiven.

Yeah.

Was was that salvific?

Was that salvific?

To have your sins forgiven, is that salvific?

I mean, because of the sacrificial system, in one sense, their sins were forgiven.

Right.

Yeah.

You see what I'm saying?

It was like a covering.

Right.

So like like I would say that that when Jesus tells that man that

his sins are forgiven, it's it's in that same outlook of that sacrificial system, the way that

it would cover the sin, his sins.

And I would say the same thing concerning John's baptism.

OK.

All right.

Yeah.

We'll definitely walk through it.

I'm just kind of like kind of showing my hand, my cards.

Right.

Sure.

So what verse do you want to walk through first?

I know you read.

You read several.

You said Titus three, five.

You didn't do John three.

Did you do John three?

I mentioned it, didn't really walk through it.

I think John three is a fine place to start.

Yeah.

Because I know that the verses that you text me, correct me if I'm wrong, is Titus three, five.

John three, three through five.

Acts 19, one through seven.

Acts two, 38 through 39.

Acts 22, 16.

And then I mentioned first Peter three, 18 through 21.

Those are the ones.

Yeah.

Yeah.

OK.

Yeah.

So let's.

So which one do you say you want to go to first?

John three.

OK.

I think it's a good place to start.

Yeah. Yeah.

I love this.

And you said that you're reading from the New King James as well.

Yeah.

OK.

All right.

Do you want to read it?

Do you want me to read it?

Oh, you can read it.

OK.

We'll start at verse one.

It says, Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.

This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, Rabbi, we know that you are a

teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs

that you do unless God is with him.

Jesus answered and said to him, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is

born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus said to him, How can a man be born when he is old?

Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?

Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water

and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

So you would take.

Would you separate three from five?

I would keep I would keep going.

OK.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

Do not marvel that I said to you, you must be born again.

The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.

So is everyone who is born of the spirit.

So that because of he says, if

I'm not mistaken, three different ways that he talks about being born.

So he talks about being born again, being born of the spirit.

And then he says.

Being born of water and the spirit.

So I would say that those three are all talking about the same thing.

Do you agree with that?

Well, maybe.

So I would say.

That verse three is introducing regeneration to us, and it's more

fleshed out in verse five.

And with that, it speaks about that spiritual birth that I mentioned earlier from from Matthew three.

I named off three different baptism.

One was the literal baptism in water.

The other one was the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

And then the other one, which it doesn't mention the baptism of fire here.

And so and so I would say that the regeneration part of verse three, it says you cannot see.

And this is with your eyes.

Right.

You cannot see, meaning you you have no idea what God is doing.

There's no way that you can believe.

What's taken place in God's redemptive history, unless first you're born

again, like you cannot even see it, much less enter in it.

Right.

And then in verse five, it kind of hashes out the.

Where it says most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and water here, I

would see as the regeneration, not literal baptism.

And I'm the spirit.

So let's talk about that.

Why is water not water?

I guess.

Why is water not the water of baptism?

Right.

Right.

That's it.

That's definitely a good answer, because like like like my view of baptism, like when I'm interpreting scripture,

I always interpret baptism as wet.

Unless the context drives me away from it.

You see what I'm saying?

And I believe Jesus here in our context is pointing back to an

Old Testament prophecy from Ezekiel chapter 36.

OK.

Do you want to read that for us?

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

So in Ezekiel 36, beginning in verse 25, this is God speaking.

Verse 25 introduces where I would say is that water that Jesus is speaking about in John 3

5.

It says, Then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you shall be clean.

I will cleanse you from all of your filthiness and from all your idols.

Verse 26, I will give you a new heart and put a new

spirit within you.

I will take out your heart of stone.

I mean, your heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and

you will keep my judgments and do them.

So here I see like like like a lot of people, they talk about the order of Saludas, the order of salvation.

I believe it's laid out right here in this text.

So first in chapter I mean, verse 25, the water of regeneration.

God is going to sprinkle us with clean water.

Right.

And then it talks about a removing of the heart and given a new

heart and also putting his spirit in us.

So I would see the heart of stone that's being removed from us because I mean, you know, like we

really don't have.

Like if you were to cut me 25 years ago before I became a Christian,

cut me open and pull out my heart, it wouldn't be stone.

You see what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Not literal.

So this heart of stone, I see that as self -righteousness.

Self -righteousness.

And I would see this as a part of what takes place in regeneration.

In regeneration, the sprinkling of clean water, he removes our heart of self -righteousness.

There's a way that seems right to a man, but the end, therefore, leads to death.

That's that self -righteous heart.

And he gives us a heart of flesh.

And I would see this heart of flesh as a heart of faith.

So when he puts that heart of flesh in us, then that's him giving us faith to

believe.

And once we believe, we receive the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit comes by faith.

And so the order of salutis would be regeneration.

The sprinkling with clean water, removing of the heart of stone, giving a heart of flesh.

Faith because we have that heart of faith, that heart of flesh.

And by believing, trusting God in faith, we receive the Holy Spirit.

Okay.

So you would say that the water in Ezekiel 36 is

talking about regeneration?

Right.

And I would also say that in John 5 because you can't see the kingdom.

In John 3.

Let's enter it.

Yeah.

So in John 3 and 35, I would say that the first part of it, the

regeneration would be forensic transaction.

And then where it talks about water and spirit.

So in order to receive the spirit, you have to have the heart of stone removed and given a heart of flesh, which is the

heart of faith.

And I would see this as the ethical transformation.

So the first part of it, forensic transaction.

This is regeneration.

Second part of it, we can now see because of

our new birth.

We can see the kingdom of God and we walk in, we enter that kingdom.

We enter that covenant by faith.

And that's the ethical transformation.

And through our faith, we receive the Holy Spirit.

And then I would say we are baptized.

We are born again.

We receive the sign of the covenant.

Right.

So I find it.

Okay.

So you're pointing from John 3.

You're saying this is talking about fulfilling a prophecy of Ezekiel 36.

Correct.

I believe Jesus had that scripture in mind.

And I think that's an awesome connection.

Yeah.

Totally agree that that's probably one of the things on his mind using that.

But again, we have another passage where we're talking about water, talking

about regeneration, and we're talking about receiving the Holy

Spirit.

All three together in both of these passages.

So when I see, then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you shall be clean.

I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

So this is, you know, I know I'm going to the

first Peter passage, but this is the baptism now saves you.

Not as cleansing of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience.

Well, what's a good conscience?

Being cleansed from all your filthiness, from all your idols.

That's what God does.

And Peter's saying that we get that through baptism, which is in Ezekiel 36.

We're receiving that through the sprinkling of clean water on you and becoming clean.

So I would say that's the remission of sins.

I will give you a new heart, put a new spirit within you.

But we both already agreed that remission of sins is not necessarily salvific.

See, that's the trouble with the churches of Christ.

They say forgiveness of sins, which baptism does point to.

I mean, I'm 100 with the creeds, but they see that as the

salvation.

Well, would you say that?

I mean, of course you affirm that baptism is for the remission of sins.

Absolutely.

I mean, everyone affirms that exact verbiage.

But what would that mean to you that baptism is for the remission of sins?

What happens at baptism that is the remission of sins?

Yeah, so again, I'm looking at it in the order of salvation,

right?

And so as a new covenant believer, I'm partaking in the sign of the covenant.

And so, which I know that you know this, you have your own 1689.

Yeah.

So let me just read real quick.

Verse chapter 29, paragraph one, just to kind of because I know I mentioned

that we see this as the sign of the covenant.

But it says paragraph one of chapter 29.

Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament ordained by Jesus Christ to those

baptized.

It is a sign of their fellowship with him in

his death and resurrection of their being grafted into him of

remission of sins and of submitting themselves to God through Jesus

Christ to live and walk in the newness of life.

All right.

So we do not see this as an empty sign.

Right.

When I I don't see baptism as a symbol.

I see it as a sign.

Symbols don't necessarily carry information.

A sign you when you see a sign.

There's, you know, like if we take a literal sign, we're driving down the road, there's a sign.

If I see a sign that says Walmart, me being familiar with what's inside

Walmart, I have information in my head of what I can purchase if I go into Walmart.

So I see it as a sign.

And the sign, therefore, points to Jesus's death, burial and resurrection.

John, I mean, Romans six.

Right.

All right.

So the the order that I see takes place would be the regeneration, faith, Holy

Spirit.

And in our baptism, which represents the forgiveness of sins, like Galatians tells us,

we put on Christ in our baptism.

We put Christ on Romans 13, 14, put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision to

satisfy the flesh.

I see that as baptism and actual being baptized.

Yeah.

You see what I'm saying?

But what you're saying with the with the analogy of the Walmart sign,

for instance, that probably not a good analogy.

Well, but I think it's a good analogy because what I see, what I'm

perceiving you as doing, you could be not doing this, but it seems like you're taking the sign and

the thing signified and saying that these are two separate things.

And that, well, when you say that the sign points to a truth, right,

what is the truth that's being pointed to?

Not a potential truth.

Yeah.

Well, I don't I don't necessarily see forgiveness of sins being salvific.

Even in the new covenant, we're saved before we partake in the in the

sacrifice and before we say partake in the sacrifice.

Speaking of Jesus, like I'm identifying myself, I'm taking the covenant, him being buried,

me being buried with him in baptism and to his death, burial and resurrection.

Yeah.

And so I actually believe that that is the forgiveness of sins.

I think it's important.

And once we get to Acts 238, I'll really walk through that.

I'm trying not to get too far ahead of myself in this one verse.

But I.

But it's not empty.

I just don't think it's salvific.

I know you're saying like this, you're talking about the order of Seleucus.

But I think if you just take this as a prophecy about baptism.

It's pretty straightforward.

But here's my problem with it.

Here's my problem with it.

You cannot see the kingdom.

He's speaking to people who have an understanding of sight.

Babies don't have an understanding of sight.

All right.

And entering into like this is with your feet, like it's given that idea.

So so unless this first happens, you cannot enter in.

And I would say that that entering in is by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

And so before I can enter in by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, something first must happen.

And I would say that that's regeneration.

That's the sprinkling of clean water.

The removal of my heart of stone, given the heart of flesh, the removal of my heart of

self -righteousness.

I can do what I want to do.

I am God.

So on and so forth.

Gives me a heart of flesh, heart of faith to pastuo, to trust

Christ.

Yeah.

So I agree that we're talking about regeneration.

And you'd say entering the kingdom of God is regeneration.

No, I'm saying that entering the kingdom, seeing the kingdom is regeneration.

Entering the kingdom is by faith.

You're saved by grace through faith.

And that is not of yourself that in the near sense of seated to that.

That is not of yourself is faith.

And I would say we're given the gift of faith to believe.

I would say that we are formally admitted into the kingdom through

baptism.

Because when he says, most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water in the spirit, he cannot enter the

kingdom of God.

Right.

So. So spirit baptism.

What would you say there?

Because.

Yeah.

Water baptism and spirit baptism, we would say, are the same baptism.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

There's not two baptisms that we have to go through.

It's the same baptism.

That's why you see an axe.

When we were talking about Acts nine that these people said, well, yeah, we were

we were baptized, but we don't know anything about the Holy Spirit.

So he's talking about John's baptism.

And then he says, well, what were you baptized into?

I don't I don't understand.

How do you get baptized and not receive the spirit?

Oh, because you weren't baptized in the name of Christ.

So for Paul, he seems to assume that what's in Acts nine,

that if you are baptized into Christ, you are receiving the Holy Spirit.

And there's confusion on his part because they say, well, no, we didn't receive the Holy Spirit because we had John's baptism.

Yeah.

So.

But, you know, like it clearly separates it born of water and.

And this is, you know, a primary participle.

Which, you know, it can you can translate it many ways and also even indeed.

And so there seems to be a separation unless you're born of water.

Also, the spirit and the spirit or even I think even would be fine there.

Yeah.

Even unless you're born of water, even the spirit, because it's the same baptism.

I mean, there's not you don't see us say I would definitely see a separation there again.

So I would say verse three.

And also part of verse five, speaking of the forensic transaction, the

words talking about water here, that's the forensic transaction, that's the regeneration

aspect.

You know, I heard the gospel.

I didn't believe I heard the gospel.

Now, I believe I went from shaking my fist to God to bow in the knee to the Lord Jesus to

me.

And I agree with that.

But I would say the reason he uses the word water to agree with what you're saying is because he's talking

about baptism.

Now, would you say that that's for adults also?

I mean, so when we talk about I'll just jump to this topic, because this is this is a clarifying

point, is that we believe that baptism in the Lord's

Supper and, you know, the preaching of the word and these things that Christ has given us,

these are means of grace.

Yeah.

Normatively, this would be the means by which God would mete out

his grace to us.

You know, faith comes by hearing.

And for Lutherans, we believe.

I want to say one of the confessions that Luther wrote within the Book of Concord, he talks about

this, that the power of baptism is the word applied to

the water.

So it's not just the mere water.

It is the word through the water being applied directly to either a child

or, you know, a hundred year old man.

It doesn't change.

Right.

Right.

All right.

Well, so I'll ask this question.

You answer it.

If you have another question, I'll answer it.

Then we'll move on.

How would you clear up this confusion?

So it says most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born

again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So if someone cannot see the kingdom, God, I'm talking about like a grown person.

I'd also would include infants because.

Like, like you're a you know, you're your child

could not see the kingdom of God.

Like like even if it was something visual and tangible, seeing it with their eyes, they wouldn't be able to perceive

what it was.

Right.

And so, you know, like me, I'm an ex -gangbanger.

Yeah, I'm an ex -gangbanger.

Right.

I lived a pretty rough life.

Like, I don't want to get into all that.

But but, you know, without me coming to

faith, there's no way that you would have got me under the water.

You see what I'm saying?

So, yeah, I would have to come to faith.

I would have to be able to see that kingdom with my eyes before entering into the waters of

baptism.

And so how would you handle that whenever it says because no one's just going to decide to be

baptized?

Like, sure.

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

Yeah.

Oh, they would.

I mean, yeah, they would have to be like I said, baptism is the normative way

that someone is regenerated.

I mean, you see in in Acts where people they, you know, they've received the Holy Spirit.

But the first thing after that is we got to get you baptized.

Right.

Right.

So these things, like I said, it's the normative way that people are

brought into faith.

I would say that somebody who rejects baptism cannot be saved.

You know, you can be saved, but you don't quite make it to the baptismal waters.

You know, you you die on the on the car ride there or something like that.

That that's what would separate us from, you know, crazy groups like the Church of Christ.

Right.

Right.

Oh, you died on the way there.

You're.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're done.

Yeah.

I think Luther wrote a nice treaty about that because like they would have like a time of testing.

I can't remember exactly what it was called, but do you have any questions for me about that before we move to another one?

No, I mean, I think we covered it.

Is there another verse particularly you want to jump to?

Oh, boy.

I know you said you mentioned Acts 238 and let's see.

Yeah, let's do Acts 238 because we've already brought that one up.

Yeah.

And this one right here will kind of like you'll see me.

I'll agree on something that you just pointed out.

Yeah.

So if you just read, you know, 38 and 39, it says then Peter.

So Peter just got done preaching a beautiful gospel presentation.

Then Peter said to them, them here being the Jews who were there from all

all around who came in, they were they were hearing the people speaking in their own language.

Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the

remission of sins.

And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit for the promise is for you

and to your children and all those who are far off, as many as the world recall.

So you and I earlier, we agreed that the promise is the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Yes.

OK.

All right.

So so if I was there's more than that, but it's not less than that.

It's not less than that.

Yeah, absolutely.

So if I was to break this down and how I how I did the other one, it had an order of

salvation.

You can't there is no repentance without faith.

You can't turn from something to nothing.

And so when it says repent, I automatically include

faith.

You're turning.

So Jesus.

So he's speaking to a people who not long before this are probably in a crowd saying, give

us Barabbas, crucify Jesus.

Right.

You know, they had to be there for that feast as well.

And so he's telling them that y 'all just crucified the Lord

and they hear the gospel.

They cry out, what must we do?

And he's telling them to repent, to turn from whatever it is that you're trusting at this time would have

been the sacrificial system.

Turn from it and put your faith in Jesus Christ.

And then here comes the baptism, the baptism.

So I perfectly agree with that statement.

If we put repentance with faith, because I don't believe that you can repent and not

have something to turn to.

So you're turning from self -righteousness and you're turning to the righteousness of God according to

Romans chapter 10.

That's Jesus Christ.

And so faith and repentance.

And you said something earlier.

So I'll give a little analogy.

Let's say that three thousand people were baptized.

Right.

I mean, that's a number.

So let's say the guy at the very end of the line.

Right.

And and he's waiting to be baptized.

And before he gets there, he dies.

And the guy that's standing beside him reports to Peter and says, hey, this guy, he was he was with me.

He repented.

His faith is in Christ.

But he he died before he could be baptized.

Yes.

Is this guy in the kingdom?

And I guarantee you, Peter would say, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Sure.

Hundred percent.

Now, same scenario.

But let's change it just a little bit.

The guy at the end is complaining.

The line is too long.

What am I doing?

And he says, you know what?

It's not for me.

Turns around and walks away, refuses to be baptized.

The guy standing beside him tells Peter, hey, there was this other guy who was standing in line.

He he claimed to have repented.

He claimed to put his faith in Christ.

But the line was too long.

So he gave up and left.

When he dies, is he going to be in the kingdom?

Peter would say, absolutely not.

Absolutely not.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah, I think that's fair.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I take baptism very serious.

It's the sign of the covenant.

If and if in the old covenant, they refused to circumcise their male child,

they were cut off from the covenant people.

Yeah.

To refuse baptism.

Now, this might sound strange coming from a Baptist, but I take the word of God very serious to refuse baptism.

That calls for church discipline.

Oh, yeah.

Well, I don't think you'd even be a member of a church without baptism.

Right.

You wouldn't be a member at my church.

Yeah.

I don't know what church would take you in.

You're just like, well, there's a lot of baptism thing.

Well, I don't know if you saw the evangelical pool lately, but.

Well, OK.

So I just want you to know that I take baptism very serious.

I believe it is for the remission of sins, but I just don't believe the remission of sin is self -evident because I believe we're already

saved before the remission of sins that that me taking part in a sign.

I believe the moment that I am regenerated, I have come to faith in Jesus Christ.

I am to receive the sign of the covenant.

I don't think I need to wait six weeks, a year, however long I'm in the covenant.

Give me the sign.

Yeah.

Give me the sign.

Yeah.

I want to put Christ on.

It says Romans 13, 14, put on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yeah.

Make no provision.

Galatians tells us that baptism is how we put Christ on.

Even the.

Well, I just read the graph.

What way would you say that you have not put Christ on?

If you I'm using your framework.

OK.

You've accepted Christ.

You've, I don't know, prayed the sinner's prayer or whatever it is that you do to repent and put my faith in Christ.

No sinner's prayer.

Well, I mean, I guess I'm just asking.

I know I'm I'm just having a having a laugh there.

But I mean, there there's some moment something

happens and you're.

You have your moment and now you're you've become regenerate.

Correct.

Right.

You're saved.

You're you're regenerate.

Have you received the Holy Spirit at this point?

Yes.

By faith.

And then.

Right.

And then.

In what way have you not put on Christ at that point?

Well, the text is clear.

We do that through baptism.

Before that, we are engrafted.

We are in Christ.

So we're saved by grace through faith and regeneration.

Our faith.

We're saved.

We are in Christ.

We're in him.

Yeah.

But we're also called to do something.

That's the covenant sign.

And by which we put him on.

You see that.

So that that's the big difference is that I would agree with the first part of what you're saying.

And then.

Well, then there's this extra baptism thing.

But.

Well, it's the Christian baptism.

Yeah.

But but you're saying you've already received all these benefits.

Right.

And then you get baptized.

Whereas.

Which you would have to say the same thing.

Paul in Romans is saying that in in baptism, we are buried with Christ.

Yeah.

And risen to walk in newness of life, which side note, that's Luther's.

Our Luther's treatise on baptism starts with that argument as.

Yeah.

Full immersion is the best way to do it.

But there's other ways to do it, too.

Right.

The dedicate allow three glasses to be poured on you.

But Luther was a full immersion proponent.

Yeah, I'm full immersion.

But if I'm in a, you know, if I go visit someone in a hospital and they receive

Christ by faith and they want to be baptized, there's no place to baptize them.

I'm going to grab three glasses and do what the dedicate says to do.

Yeah.

Right.

I mean, I'm not, you know, a fundamental Baptist to where I think, you know, a

big toe popped out the water.

Yeah.

You know, like I'm not legalistic.

Yeah.

But I just want to take things as it's handed to me.

And so like so would you say that you have to only be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, like the text says,

in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins?

Well, we're baptized into all three names.

But Trinity, I mean, I think that.

But that text doesn't say it.

Right.

I think saying that when other writers will

say baptized in the name of Christ, that that's just shorthand for

betraying God.

Yeah.

Which Christ is one person.

Yeah.

Now, I agree with you, but I want to push back on you because you challenged me with water.

It says water.

It says water.

Why don't you believe water?

Sure.

Right.

So right here and also in Acts 19, it only says Jesus Christ.

It does not mention the triunity of God, which I listen.

I believe I baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Right.

But the two texts here that you pointed to just says Christ.

Why?

Why are you not just baptizing in the name of Christ?

Well, Christ himself says baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I know, but that's so that is that is these are synonymous terms when he's saying he's talking about the

one baptism.

We only have the one.

Yeah.

Christian baptism.

Ephesians four.

Right.

One faith, one Lord, one baptism.

Yeah.

So that to say that it's just one baptism to me

is one of the bigger arguments against dividing spirit baptism and water

baptism.

Well, I showed you in John three that there's three baptisms that I mean, excuse me, Matthew three.

Matthew three spoke of three baptisms.

He had the John baptized with water.

That's one.

Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Yeah.

And that fire is speaking about hell.

Context to the verse, verse 10, verse 12 is sandwiched.

They both speak of fire and its judgment.

So verse 11, right, that sandwich in between there, that fire has to be judgment, that spirit there.

You know, and I would see that as being regeneration.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Baptizing with the spirit is synonymous with Christian water baptism, I

would say.

And looking at Acts two, the last verse that we're looking at is that.

Be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That's that's the promise of baptism.

The remission of sins and you receive the Holy Spirit.

Yeah.

I don't know what else to call that, but regeneration.

And that's what Christ calls it in John chapter three.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now, now, now, here's my problem with this text.

So I kind of outlined, you know, things that we agree on, kind of pushed on you

a little bit.

And you push back.

So here's my problem.

This text, it's ambiguous.

How many different denominations and even cults build their whole denominations, these false

cults on this singular text?

Right.

So you have the one is Pentecostals.

It has to be in the name of Jesus Christ alone.

Yeah.

All right.

I mean, churches of Christ, which I would see them as as a cult as well.

I don't see Lutherans that way.

I see Lutheran as my longest, my brother from another mother.

And I appreciate that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, you know, so I don't see building doctrine off of

any any passage in Acts because it's it's narrative versus didactic.

So we can read the letters to actually see the formation of how it goes.

Now, I did mention if you want to move to didactic text, that's.

Yeah.

But I mean, I did mention that if I was to order it, I would I would go from

repentance, faith, baptism, like like what's clearly seen here.

Right.

And so I believe repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin.

You can't turn from some from something to nothing.

So do you believe that children can have faith?

Children, yes.

But faith comes by hearing and hearing of the word of God.

Galatians 3, Paul rhetorically asked the question to the Galatians, did you receive the spirit

by works of the law or by hearing and faith?

Right.

So can babies hear?

I don't believe infant babies can hear.

Now, when I when I say children, I mean.

Well, but I mean, like just in in general, like if I went up to a sleeping one day old infant and screamed in

his face.

Yeah.

Would he hear?

Absolutely.

Like you hear that.

Right.

So does he understand the gospel?

So well, I didn't say faith comes by my intellectual assent to what I'm

hearing.

It's just that's the power of God's word.

OK.

I mean, so, you know, John the Baptist recognizes Christ in the womb.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

In the womb.

He's also the spirit came upon John.

John wasn't indwelled with the spirit.

It's kind of like the Old Testament prophets.

When you read the Old Testament, the spirit would come upon people, then it would leave.

It would come upon people, then it would leave.

But that's how that's actually how you and I are greater than John.

He's the greatest man ever born.

But the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than him.

How?

Because we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

So we know that we know that the Holy Spirit can

temporarily come upon pre -born infants

and give them faith to recognize Christ.

To understand what is in front of them, not even just seeing like he

didn't even see Jesus.

He was able to recognize with no hearing, no seeing anything.

But by the power of the spirit, a pre -born child was able to

recognize Jesus Christ.

Absolutely.

So there's no problem with God's pre -born child.

But here's the disconnect.

Here's the disconnect.

Yeah.

He was a prophet that the spirit come upon.

For you and I were not prophets.

We received the spirit by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

Did you receive the spirit by words of the law or by hearing of faith?

Romans 10, 17 faith comes by hearing, hearing of the word of God.

So faith comes by hearing the message, hearing the message.

We receive faith and that through that faith, we receive the Holy Spirit.

OK.

But babies can't hear that.

Well, so, so, so, so one thing you probably don't know about me and I don't post a lot about it is that

I'm a street preacher.

So this Saturday I will be on the side of the road and I have a big parking lot behind me.

I'll be at an intersection and I'll be preaching the gospel.

And I've been preaching in this one spot near my house and near the church for three years

now.

And I have I've had hundreds of people stop and talk to me.

One person knew the gospel.

I would say 98 percent of them claim to be Christians.

One person knew the gospel.

And I don't understand how someone can be saved by a gospel they don't know.

Like if you if I told you that I was a Christian and you started asking me questions and I didn't know.

I didn't know Jesus died on the cross or any of this stuff or my sins.

Would you start to question my faith?

What?

Yeah.

I can't turn from something to nothing.

Sure.

Yeah.

And so how can an infant turn much less.

I mean turn to something.

If they can't turn much less to something because they don't.

What do you mean an infant can't turn?

Repent.

Repentance and faith.

We both agree in accordance with Romans 5 that babies have original

sin and are therefore guilty.

Absolutely.

From the youngest preborn.

They're guilty by being descended from Adam.

Yeah.

The wages of sin is death.

And that means death is our paycheck.

If children are not born in sin and children don't die.

Right.

Because the wages of sin is death.

Exactly.

So we believe that children have something to repent from.

Can they repent?

That's the thing.

By the power of the Spirit they can.

But they receive the Spirit by hearing and faith that they have to be given faith first.

Is that how John received the Spirit?

Who?

Is that how John the Baptist received the Spirit?

John the Baptist didn't receive the Holy Spirit like you and I have.

He didn't have the indwelling Spirit.

It came upon him like in the old covenant.

Like we saw the Spirit would come upon someone, then it would leave.

Like David and Saul, like it would come upon them, then it would leave.

And John was the last Old Testament prophet.

Right.

So when David in Psalm 22, 9

says, From my mother's womb you have led me to trust you.

Let me get a better translation.

Hold on.

He said 22, 9?

22, 9.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But you are he who took me out of my mother's womb.

You made me trust while on my mother's breast.

Okay.

So on his mother's breast, hopefully that he's pretty young at that moment.

Right.

Unless he's like five -year -old and not cut the cord early enough.

So we're talking about the youngest child.

You made me trust in you even at my mother's breast.

I mean, that's monergism 101.

It doesn't matter that I'm a baby who's just a bundle

of instincts that sees my mother's breast.

And that's the one thing that my whole world wraps around is where's food coming from.

Right.

But you made me trust in you at that age, at that early, early age.

God made me trust in him.

That's what David is saying.

Yeah.

Now, again, we don't want to.

I don't want to build doctrine off of that, but I want to kind of.

So how old are you?

You know what I'm asking?

Thirty -four.

Thirty -four.

Okay.

I'm 43.

How long have you been a Christian?

It was 20 years in January, I want to

say.

Yeah.

Very good.

Now, can you, in hindsight, because I believe David's speaking

in hindsight.

Can you, in hindsight, look back at your life and see how God has caused you to trust him

even before you were a Christian?

Because I can.

No, there was a there was a point in my life where I began to trust in Christ.

I'm not talking about like that.

I'm not talking about like that.

I'm talking about like, like, can you look back and see God's

hand on your life before you were a Christian?

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's how I believe God that David is speaking here.

And in hindsight, seeing God's governing hand on him.

Okay.

But again, I just don't want to build doctrine off of the psalm.

Like, I think it's sure.

I try my best when it comes to I'm laying out theology.

Yeah.

I use this to kind of, you know, navigate some things.

But yeah, I guess like just to kind of close that, that whole my thoughts

on what we're just talking about, about children believing.

Right.

We know that the Holy Spirit can and has, at least temporarily at

times, gone to a child who hadn't even been

born yet and gave him faith.

Faith enough to when he leaved, he filled his mother with the Holy Spirit.

Right.

So I don't see a problem in saying that the youngest of children can.

But an infant.

Saving faith.

An infant.

The gift of God.

An infant.

So that's the thing.

So again, I got a seven year old son and I got a two year old son.

Yeah.

All right.

If my two year old, which cannot talk, was to say that he had faith in Christ, I would probably

say, oh, OK, let's talk about it.

But if my seven year old who has been sitting under my preaching now for quite a long time.

I mean, like there's one time he told me he said, I'm almost a Christian, like I'm almost there.

Yeah.

But if he was to walk up to me and desire and tell me that that Jesus Christ is his

Lord and he desires to be baptized.

Brother, I'm not going to waste another moment.

The next Lord's Day we're baptizing.

Sure.

And yeah, I understand that.

Like I think that a lot of a lot.

I mainly see it from Presbyterians that will just try to harp on Baptist and say, well, you don't believe that children can have faith.

I understand that Baptist fully recognize that children can fully understand the gospel.

They try to make it like we hate our children.

Yeah, I've always hated that.

I don't like strawmans and stuff like that.

But I will always tell them they stow their kids baptism.

When they pick on me, I just pick back.

So, you know, contrary to what some unlearned

Internet Lutherans will tell you, Lutherans are very monergistic according to our confessions

and baptism, we would say is a monergistic

regeneration.

And that faith, when we say that faith is the gift of God, we mean that.

There's nothing that we did to receive that faith, even mental ascent.

That faith is given to us as a pure gift that we've done

nothing to receive.

In fact, would you say that it's through hearing the word?

Yeah.

And, you know, in baptism, we have the word applied to the baptism.

We have the name of the triune God is applied to the

water.

And so they are receiving the power of that word.

In their baptism, even someone like I have a autistic daughter, she just turned three

and she was.

I don't know if she even she I think she just before she was two years old, she was

baptized because that's when we converted.

And it was the most monergistic baptism that you could imagine because she was kicking and

screaming and she couldn't understand.

Why we were like holding her so tight and pouring water on her now and all this.

But now she doesn't say a lot of words.

But now one of the few words that she'll say is Jesus Christ.

This is an autistic three year old.

Who says almost no words.

She's never said I love you.

She's never said she says mommy and daddy.

But in the context of mommy shark and daddy shark.

Right. Right.

She knows her shows.

Right.

But she knows the name of Jesus Christ.

Amen. And. Yeah.

Now, I do take a set of exceptions, exceptions to stuff like that.

You know, like.

Yeah, I would have.

I mean, I used to be a Presbyterian.

I don't know if you knew that about me.

I did not know that.

So.

So don't let anyone ever say that it never goes the other way.

Yeah. Yeah.

My 13 year old.

She was baptized as an infant.

Right.

But she hasn't been baptized as a believer.

And so I don't let her partake in the in the supper.

Okay.

Okay.

So I know it's I don't know how much time you got, but I at least want to get to that first Peter passage or

something didactic.

But I also wanted to pick on you just for a second.

Please do.

Yeah.

You know, just just because we're we're talking salvation.

And I want to take you to a text that that I stump a lot of people on,

especially churches of Christ, because you had to be baptized, you know what I'm saying?

And, you know, and they, you know, like people that they just want to take the text by itself as it is

literal, wooden as possible.

And so I'll take them to this verse.

I'm going to take you there too.

And I missed it.

I'm over here playing with a new Bible.

I got me a wide margin in KJV wide margin to mark up.

I didn't got rebound yet.

Oh, yeah.

It's going to be beautiful that once it's done.

So in first Timothy chapter two, the end of it.

Verse.

Fifteen.

Speaks about a different salvation.

Nevertheless, she will be saved in childbearing.

If they continue in faith, love, holiness and self -control.

Now, is that speaking of another way of salvation?

No, it's talking about Eve giving birth to the Messiah who will save.

The world.

See, that's where your covenant Baptist just came into play.

I mean,.

Pretty clear.

I mean, it's clear in the text, right?

Yeah.

I mean, it's speaking about, you know, some of the offspring

I read from Genesis chapter three earlier.

Verse fifteen.

Talking about that seed that's coming from the woman.

Yeah.

This right here is talking about that seed.

That that seed is how she Eve.

It's in the context.

It's speaking of Eve.

Yeah.

Is going to be saved.

Right.

Yes.

And that's and I would say that sums up my belief.

We're saved by Christ.

We're regenerated through the gospel.

Given faith to believe the heart of stone is removed.

He's given us a heart of flesh.

And now that I'm in this covenant, I'm to be baptized.

And I see it as a sign.

And I think first Peter is where we'll go right here.

I mean, if that's OK with you.

Yeah. Yeah.

Now, this is a hard text.

Right.

Like like you want to talk about.

See, I used to interpret when I was when I was a 1689 Federalist, I found this to be a hard text.

And now as a Lutheran, I find it to be a very easy text.

Yeah.

Well, let's.

Well, you see me as 1689 Federalist pointing to this text saying, let's go here.

Yeah, because like there was a time in my life where I was afraid.

Like, you know, I held to believers baptism, but I was afraid to defend it.

And then I was like, you know what?

I got to get over this.

I didn't.

You know, like I grew up as a gangbanger, always in confrontation and always fighting.

It took me a long time to figure out how to fight with words and not with my fist.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

And so I did not want to have any kind of confrontation.

I didn't want it to, you know, something in my head to click.

Yeah.

And that old gangbanger come out of me.

All right.

So would you mind reading it?

Would that be OK?

So 18 through 21, I think it is.

Yeah.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to

death in the flesh, but made alive by the spirit.

By whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly were disobedient.

When once the divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, in which a

few, that is, eight souls were saved through water.

There is also an antitype which now saves us baptism, not the removal of the filth of the flesh,

but the answer of a good conscience towards God.

Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and

authorities and powers haven't been made subject to him.

Yeah. So.

So surface level, face value.

Yeah.

Seems like you've won this, but.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But just like in the first Timothy two

passage, like you can't take that at face value surface level.

And so you have to dig into it.

Now, what I said was pretty surface level by just saying that she will be

saved through childbearing is talking about a specific she, Eve, who is right before her.

Yeah.

But I want to point out that you used to be 1689 Federalist.

Yes.

And so your covenant theology kicked in.

Oh, come on.

That's a plain reading of the text.

It's not as plain as you think because there's cults built on that.

Yeah.

And I've stumped so many people with that verse.

Yeah.

And they don't know how to interpret it.

And then when I interpret it for them, they say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I see that.

I see that.

I see that.

Yeah.

And so what I'm saying is, just like with that, this is going to need more than just a

surface level reading.

So then let me give the surface level and then you can tell me where I missed.

Right.

Well, you know, I just give you my interpretation.

Right. Right.

OK.

So the immediate context is the days of Noah.

Right.

Once the divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared in which a few that is eight souls were

saved through water.

So the type that

is here is Noah's Ark.

Eight.

Eight souls are saved through water.

So you're saying the type.

That is the type.

OK.

And there's a specific reason I'm saying that, because he then says there is also an

anti type, which now saves us.

So you have type anti type.

That's how anti types work.

That's actually a transliteration.

I just know that from.

Yeah.

Remembering that.

But.

Yeah.

So like the ESP says corresponding to this.

Like he doesn't.

Yeah.

The word.

It's like anti to boss or however.

Correct.

Yeah, it is.

There's an anti type which now saves us baptism.

So Noah was saved through the waters of the flood.

There's an anti type which now saves us baptism and says not the removal of the filth of the flesh.

And I don't.

So there's there's two ways because of the way that Greek is that.

That you can say you say the answer of a good conscience towards God or you say the

answer to God for a good conscience.

Right.

Of a good conscience.

So because of the way that Greek doesn't have to be.

Yeah.

Laws don't have to be in order.

Right.

In English.

They definitely do.

So you can.

Yeah.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

You can put whatever spin on the ordering to do it.

But what we have is it's not the removal of filth from the flesh,

but an appeal to God for a good conscience.

So the difference that he's giving is between just like washing your hands or washing your whole body.

This is washing your conscience.

You have a good conscience.

So I would say that is the remission of sins.

Right.

You have a good conscience.

That's that's what it is.

Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone to heaven, is at the right hand of God, angels and authority and

powers having been subject to him.

That's all pretty straightforward.

But again, like baptism tied to the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

We're talking about being saved.

That is the way that we are saved by Christ's death, burial, resurrection, ascension,

session.

I mean, there's the whole life of Christ.

So when it says baptism now saves us.

We are saved from our sins the way that the

type was Noah having all the evil of the earth washed away

around him.

And then he is saved through that water event.

So that's that's the surface level.

You go ahead.

Yeah.

So so just to throw my answer out real quick.

Yeah. Right.

And then kind of work it back in.

I would say that the baptism here is not Christian baptism,

but it's the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So like if you look in Luke chapter chapter 12.

Beginning in verse 49, so verse 49 and 50, Jesus says this,

I came to send fire on the earth and how I wished

it were already kindled.

But I have a baptism to be baptized with.

And how distressed I am until it is accomplished.

All right.

So Jesus had already been baptized by John.

This is nearing his the end of his ministry.

And he says that he has a baptism to undergo.

And he is speaking about his death, burial and resurrection in

the context of what Peter is speaking about.

We see in verse 18, for Christ suffer once for sins, the just for the unjust,

meaning the righteous for the unrighteous.

Him being the righteous, the law keeper suffers for the unjust, the unrighteous, the

lawbreakers, you and I, that he might bring us to God being put to

death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.

Now, this right here, we could walk through Isaiah chapter 53 close to the end where

once he died, he was made alive in the spirit.

Like, you know, like this is what that's correlating with right there.

And so and at this time.

Now, there's so many different interpretations that people take.

I just want to take it simple.

And, you know, you know, he went and proclaimed victory over death is how I

would see it.

He wasn't there preaching the gospel, trying to get the the the unsaved

rebellions to rebellious people to come to him.

He was proclaiming victory.

And then ultimately, we see that in verse 21, his resurrection.

But but let's read that real quick.

So verse 19, by whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who

formerly were disobedient when once the divine long suffering waited in the

days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved

through water.

I mean, there is also an antitype which now saves

baptism, not the removal of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God

through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So verse 18.

Speaks about his death and burial.

Verse 21 speaks about his resurrection.

So the antitype, I would say, is Christ.

Right.

We are whenever we have received regeneration,

faith to believe we have the Holy Spirit.

Like I said earlier, and I can go back to Ephesians two.

We are in Christ.

And it's kind of like this already and not yet.

Right.

I am right now sitting in Tullahoma, Tennessee.

It's what time is it?

It's ten twenty eight at night.

But I'm also with Christ in heaven, sitting with him in the heavenlies like I'm in

Christ because of his baptism, his death, burial and

resurrection.

And so the baptism that now saves us is what is right here.

It's describing that baptism as verse 18 is death, burial, verse 21, his

resurrection.

So us being in Christ, like Noah and his family were in the ark and they were

rescued from the waters.

You and I, because of his baptism, death, burial and resurrection, we are in him

rescued from the wrath of God.

Yeah, I think that's I think that's all fine.

I don't disagree with much of that.

I guess my final word on this would be that at the end of starting with the end of verse 20, you

just have eight souls were saved through water.

There is also an antitype which now saves us baptism.

So he specifically brings up that they were saved through this

water and now the reality.

But the water was the wrath.

The water was the wrath.

Yeah, and it washed away all the wicked from the earth.

Yeah, and earlier you said the type was the ark and I agree the type was the ark.

Yeah, yeah.

And the antitype is the is Jesus as our ark being

baptized, death, burial, resurrection.

So that's what Romans six talks about.

But when when you and I are baptized like Christian baptism, we're baptized into his death, burial and resurrection.

And so Jesus is.

And so just right here, this baptism, I don't believe it's Christian baptism.

I believe it's speaking of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And I believe the context tells us that as well.

Yeah, and I think I think that's great.

You mentioned Romans six.

Can I just read?

Yeah, absolutely.

I love Romans.

Starting in.

Yeah.

Give me a second to get there, please.

Oh, come on.

You should be Romans.

I'm not telling you.

This is a new Bible.

I got to be gentle with the pages.

OK, go ahead.

What shall we say then?

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

Certainly not.

How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

Therefore, we were buried with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead

by the glory of the Father.

Even so, we also should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united together in the likeness of his death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of his

resurrection.

Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should

no longer be slaves to sin.

For if for he who has died has been freed from sin.

I mean, I could just read the whole rest of Romans, but.

Right.

All these wonderful benefits.

Paul ties directly to our baptism.

So any time that you, I think that's kind of the problem is that what

you're saying, I'm there.

I'm absorbing it.

That's, this is what it's talking about salvation in Christ.

I'm there.

But then what does Paul say?

We get all those things that you just talked about in the first Peter 3 passage.

All those things we find in baptism.

So because I remember earlier I said baptism is not a symbol, it's a

sign that has information.

Right.

It's a true sign that points to true realities.

And it does have the remission of sins.

I'm 100 % agree with that.

Okay.

Like you heard me say that in the very beginning.

I just my argument with that would be that nowhere in Scripture

is forgiveness of sin equated to in salvation.

Salvific.

Whenever the Jews would offer sacrifice, they had the forgiveness of sins.

John baptism was for the forgiveness of sins.

John's disciples did not have salvation.

Jesus forgives a man of his sins.

And it wasn't salvific.

Because there's not two ways or three ways or four ways of salvation.

It's by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ.

Right.

And so there's not multiple ways of salvation from Abraham, from Eve,

Adam and Eve to however long the Lord, Terry.

Salvation is always going to be in Jesus Christ who died upon that cross.

Who lived a life we could not live and took upon himself the punishment that we deserve.

By faith in him.

Yeah.

And I said that faith is that new heart that's given to us in regeneration.

I'm with you.

And then we take the sign.

I'm identifying with Christ.

I'm putting him on like a jacket.

I'm putting him on in my baptism.

Yeah.

I am taking the sign.

I identify with his death.

When he died, I died.

When he was buried, I was buried.

When he rose, I rose.

Right.

As many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death.

Yeah.

I agree with all that lingo.

Yeah.

It's just not regeneration.

That's my argument.

That's my only argument.

It's not regeneration.

Baptism doesn't always have to be wit.

Well, and I think that's why I want to start in John 3 is because you have these

times where the word regeneration, there's at least two different words in Greek.

Right.

But they're essentially the word born and word again combined in some

way.

And literal would be born from above, made alive.

Well, I mean, the Greek is literally just born again.

So when someone says they are a born again Christian, they should mean and I hope they mean they are a

regenerate Christian.

That would be more historical term for it, I guess.

But I mean, the words are synonyms.

They mean the same thing.

Right.

But you have these times where Jesus is talking about being regenerated, being born

again.

And he says, you must be born of water and the spirit.

If what you're saying is regeneration and faith, it should just be you

must be born of the spirit.

He didn't have to bring up water.

No, no.

Yeah, it does.

Because water represents regeneration in Ezekiel.

And I would also say that that's speaking of Colossians where it talks about the circumcision of Christ.

That's regeneration.

That's the circumcision without hands.

Yeah.

And what does he connect that to?

Baptism.

Right.

Yeah.

So I'm agreeing with what you're saying.

The sign.

Yeah.

But it's a sign of a real thing.

Absolutely.

And I agree with that.

It's a real thing.

When you see the Walmart sign, you also know, oh, there's a Walmart there.

You're not just saying, well, yeah, sometimes when I'm driving down the road, I see the Walmart sign.

There's a Walmart there.

But sometimes there's just a sign.

No, every time you see the Walmart sign, there's a Walmart there.

Hopefully.

No, that is.

It could be Walmart coming soon.

Right.

Walmart coming soon.

That's why you should baptize them as an infant.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, that's a.

So to kind of bring this to I don't want to take up too much more of your time.

I can do this all night, brother.

Yeah.

Just kind of take this as a whole, which correct me if I'm wrong.

And I know you will.

So I believe.

All the way through scripture, there is one way of salvation.

The same way Abraham was saved is the same way that I am saved today.

And it's by believing God.

Believe God.

And I am counted as righteousness.

Right.

Now, if we say it's baptism that saves us as in Christian baptism,

Abraham was not baptized.

And so I have a problem with that.

Yeah.

You see what I'm saying?

And I would also have a problem with saying if a Luther says that someone can be again, we're brothers

from another mother.

That that someone can actually be saved by faith, grace through faith,

but also by baptism.

So it seems that that's why I brought up that that first Timothy.

It seems to be multiple ways of salvation versus I'm saying there's only one way.

So it's by grace alone, through faith alone and Jesus Christ.

Yeah.

So when we talk about grace, God's grace, there are there are means of that grace.

Yes.

So even reformed confessions will say it will talk about the means of grace.

How to the means of grace.

Probably a little.

Maybe it's similar.

But now, historically, when you're talking about the means of grace, you're literally saying these are the

means by which God gives us this grace.

His grace being faith, which is according to Ephesians to

the gift of God.

Now, would y 'all have the preached word as a means of grace?

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, faith comes by hearing.

Yeah.

Right.

And so you hear the word, you receive baptism.

You don't go up and grab it.

You know what I mean?

It's not your work.

You're not doing the work of baptism to get to God.

Baptism is a gift of God.

But let's say that I was at a Lutheran church.

I'm lost as a cucumber in a cornfield.

Right.

And I hear the gospel.

God grants to me faith to believe.

Right.

Am I a Christian or do I have to be baptized?

You don't believe that Christians have to be baptized or what?

No, no, no, no, no.

I'm talking about am I.

Do I have to.

Am I a Christian or do I.

I gave you that scenario in X.

You know, I believe that Christians need to be baptized.

But the way you asked it, I was just kind of.

Well, let me rephrase that.

I hear the gospel.

God gives me faith to believe.

All right.

Am I a Christian right there with the Holy Spirit regeneration or do I need to be

baptized?

You are a Christian and you do need to be baptized.

Yes.

Do I have the Holy Spirit?

Yeah.

I mean, I don't I don't know in that moment.

I mean, faith.

It's possible.

Yes.

Max, that it is possible.

Faith comes by hearing Galatians chapter two.

I mean, Romans chapter 10, verse 17.

Faith comes by hearing.

Hear another word of God.

And excuse me.

Galatians chapter three, verse one.

Oh, foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you.

That you should not obey the truth before whose eyes Jesus Christ

was publicly betrayed among you as crucified.

This only I want to learn from you.

Did you receive the spirit by works of the law or by hearing in faith?

Are you saying that baptism falls in that works of the law category?

Or no, no, no, no, no, no.

Because I would say that now baptism.

So, so, so the word works is Aragon, the Greek word.

And it means anything that you do, Aragon hostess.

So baptism follows under Aragon.

But what I'm saying is right here, it clearly which I'm not arguing is baptism of work.

Like I would if you were a church of Christ.

Like that's where we'd be.

That's where we would be at.

I'm just showing right here is that the Holy Spirit is given not by works of the law,

but by faith.

And the works of the law in this context is speaking of circumcision, doing, being under

the physical Abrahamic covenant.

Yeah.

So the reason that I brought up the sinner's prayer joke was that

everyone believes in a means of grace.

Some people believe that the means of grace is the sinner's prayer.

Right.

They may not say that, but that's what they effectively believe.

I walked down the aisle.

Shake of hands.

Yeah.

And they sang the first, second, and fourth stanzas of just as I am.

And that was, that was how I got saved.

So everybody believes in some means of grace.

God's grace doesn't just, there's some way in which God

gives us that grace effectively.

Now let's say through the preach word.

Sure.

We would say through the word as instituted by Christ, which is baptism and the

Lord's Supper.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so I want you to finish your thought, but I just want to get your opinion.

So I would say, so the primary means of grace that we hold to at our church

is the preach word.

And those who have been given faith receive baptism.

So baptism is a means of grace.

And those who have been baptized partake in the Lord's Supper.

And we have the Lord's Supper every week.

That's good.

And so we, we believe that through those who have been baptized, they sit under the word of God.

They partake in the Lord's Supper.

God is growing them into the image of Christ.

They are being conformed, they're being sanctified to the image of Christ.

And I believe that's how that's done.

I hold to a means of grace.

So let me, let me, I think this is a good means of grace passage.

Titus, Titus 3, 5.

It's one of the ones that we were going to talk about.

We can make this the last, the last one if you want.

Actually, I'm going to start in verse 3.

For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice

and envy, hateful and hating one another.

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness, which

we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy

Spirit, whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by his

grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

So it's that,

yeah.

So in verse 5, when it says he saved us through the washing of regeneration and

renewing of the Holy Spirit, Lutherans see that as baptism.

I mean, that's in our confessional statements that Titus 3, 5 is about baptism.

So there's no, I'm not just making that up.

Yeah, oh yeah, I wouldn't think that was.

But the, it's that through which

he saved us.

So when I talk about baptism, I'm not talking about something separate from

God's grace, separate from faith.

You know, faith is the hand that holds our baptism.

And we believe that we are granted faith if we did not have it granted to us

already at baptism.

That is the normative way.

So when we say that a baby is saved through baptism,

we're saying that they are granted faith, being the gift of God, because we are monergistic.

God grants that child faith.

They have faith to hold on to their baptism.

This is, baptism is that means through which Christ has saved us.

And I'm not just like, I'm not making that up.

That's the language that we see.

I mean, this is like the fifth or sixth text where I've gone to and shown

water, spirit, and regeneration being all in one package deal.

Even the Ezekiel one that you.

Yeah, which is what I think this is referencing.

Yeah, and I would say it's referencing that too, but there's how many passages, and I

encourage the people listening either now or later.

So normally I go live on Facebook, and that's where I get most of my listeners.

Because I did the thing today, it wouldn't let me go on Facebook.

I can only go on YouTube.

So anyone watching this, just try to count the amount of times that we've gone to a passage.

It's not even a passage I brought.

I didn't even know we were going to go to that Ezekiel passage.

Water, regeneration, and the Holy Spirit all in one.

How many times do we see that?

So I know you keep saying, oh, he keeps going back to this Ezekiel passage.

Yeah, because the Ezekiel passage is talking about.

Well, I brought up the Ezekiel passage.

Right, because he's sprinkling with clean water.

Which is regeneration, and I agree with that.

It's regeneration, but it's not baptism.

But it's always connected with baptism.

That's what I'm saying.

How many times do we have to see in the text?

Regeneration is always connected to water, but baptism isn't always water.

And I just showed that.

Like even that first Peter passage, it says not the removal of flesh, which indicates that it's not speaking about being dumped in water.

The people in the ark were never dumped in water, but were saved through the ark.

Well, but the reason that it's a type -antitype relationship is

because they're both talking about water.

Peter's explicitly talking about baptism in that passage.

Well, it doesn't necessarily say water, because it just says baptism.

And Jesus' baptism, in the context, it's speaking of the death, burial, and resurrection.

And in Luke, it shows that Jesus' baptism is his death, burial, and resurrection.

And that has nothing to do with water for himself.

We're saved by what Christ has done for us.

And so the regeneration, I would say, I would say this points to the same thing.

So first we see the mercy of...

Oh, go ahead.

Sorry.

I wanted to correct on 1 Peter 3, because verse 20 does say

water.

Eight souls were saved through water.

The immediate next thing he says is, there is also an antitype which now saves us, baptism.

Right.

So water is connected to baptism.

The type -antitype relationship is water, baptism.

They were saved through water.

You're saved through water.

Okay, so you changed the antitype, I mean the type.

So earlier you said the type was the ark.

And they weren't saved through the water.

The water was coming to destroy them.

Being saved through water is the type.

That's how Peter says it.

Eight souls were saved through water.

There is also an antitype which now saves us, baptism.

The word normatively, baptizo and baptizmos and all these word

families of baptism, is normatively talking about

something being dunked in some water.

Or washed.

Or washed in pans.

It has something to do with a lot of water being touched on whatever the thing is being baptized.

But what about fire?

The baptism of fire, that has nothing to do with water.

Sure, but this one does explicitly say water.

I'm just pointing out that not all baptism is wet.