Baptism: Reformed Baptist / Lutheran

You can say what you want, but you won't around me. Sheep among misfits, a misfit in the trailer park at night. A misprint with the six cents, been sick ever since my brother died of an O .D. My two cents never made sense, either to me or anyone else inside of the sheep fence.

My 9th Smith on my right side. Why you staring at your cop dot sign and my John Hancock on the dotted line? Tell me what's the bottom line? The bottom line is I'm not right. I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight.

There's nothing left but the spotlight. Hold my beer, you can find me in the moonlight. You can say what you want, but you won't around me. I'm wits in the deep end and I can't find my assigned seat to sit in.

My theology don't fit in. Black sheep of the Reformation sheep pen. To the Reformed, I'm just another Baptist baptized again. The bastard child of Anabaptist. Host to child of Reformation society. We don't need your education.

Give me a Bible and a bookshelf of dead men. Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans. Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men. Making Reformation great again. You can say what you want. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.

You can say what you want. You can say what you want, but you won't around me. No, you won't around me.

All right, ladies and gentlemen, we are live. Thank you for tuning in. My name is Jeff and this is Open Air Theology. I am one of the elders at Covenant Reformed Baptist Church here in Tallahoma, Tennessee.

If you're ever around this area, please stop by and hang out with us. We have a full meal after every service. That way we can have a conversation, talk theology, make fun of each other, and all that good stuff.

Well, as you can see, my other co-hosts are not here tonight, but I do have a guest, and I'm going to let him introduce himself.

Yeah, I'm Sean Russell. I'm the local Lutheran for this episode. You reached out and wanted a Lutheran on, so here I am. I've got a bachelor's degree in theology from California Baptist University, so hoping that that does some good in this discussion, and yeah, glad to be here.

Yeah, well, it turns out that he used to be a Reformed Baptist, and he's left the Black Sheep Gang, and he's moved over to the other side of the ball field where they baptize babies and all that other good stuff.

I made sure to—I actually didn't know that I had it on until I—. It's just by God's providence, my Credo over Pedo shirt.

Well, it's actually showing my journey from Credo pointing to Pedo. That's what it's actually showing.

Yeah, so him and I got on here a little earlier just to figure out the format and have a conversation, and it's been a joy so far. I made a comment on someone's post, and I can't remember exactly what was said, but I was having a disagreement with another guy, and Sean chimed in, and I challenged— well, not really challenged, but the other guy was getting really hardcore on me, and so I invited him on the podcast to have a conversation, and then I asked Sean, and he gladly took me up on that offer.

I was supposed to have this last week, but I had a dentist appointment, and they really jacked me up. I came home in a lot of pain and unable to talk really well, so he was kind enough to let me counsel last week and to have it this week.

But yeah, so let's get into it, man. Do you want me to go first on my position?

Yeah, go ahead.

Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so like I said earlier, so I hold to what's called Baptist covenant theology. It has been coined as 1689 federalism. I don't call it that. Personally, I used to, but every time I would, I would have to sit there and explain what that meant, and so I find it easier to just say Baptist covenant theology.

A great majority of Baptists hold to basically a Presbyterian view of covenant theology, a classical covenant theology with baptism stamped onto it, kind of like a Band-Aid, but, you know, whenever you're fully emerged in water, Band-Aids seem to not stay on the body, and so as I'm working my way through covenant theology, I have found that Baptists, reading the older works, had their own view of covenant theology.

So that's what I hold to, and basically, just to put it in a nutshell, we believe that the covenant of grace is the new covenant. So I would see that the covenant made with Adam, Abraham, Moses, and David, all those are a covenant of works, and that when Christ came, He fulfilled those covenants.

Therefore, we're living in the blessing of His fulfillment, that is, in the covenant of grace. And so the key verse that people go to is Genesis 3 .15, and I'll read that real quick. Genesis 3 .15, this is God pronouncing a curse, which is a blessing to us, but a curse on the serpent.

He says to him, I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He, speaking of her seed, shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. So right here, when it comes to covenant theology, we all agree that this is the proclamation of the covenant of grace, right?

Presbyterian covenant theology would say that this is where the covenant of grace begins. So Adam is the only one under a covenant of works. Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic are all different administrations of the covenant of grace.

But when I see this, I see both a promise and a fulfillment. The promise is a seed is coming from the woman. A seed is coming. The fulfillment is when the seed bruises the head of the serpent while only bruising his heel.

Everyone holding to covenant theology, even dispensationalism, I'm not sure what Lutheranism holds, you can explain that if you want, would say that this is, the fulfillment of this is Christ on the cross.

When Christ was crucified, that is when he bruises the head of the serpent while only bruising his heel. Now, to speak about continuity and discontinuity, this will bring us into my view of baptism. So continuity will be the things that are alike in the new covenant, the old covenant and the new covenant, and discontinuity will be how they are not alike.

So in the old covenant, whenever a male child was born, he was in the kingdom. He was born. He was in the kingdom. And then eight days later, he would receive the covenant sign, which is circumcision.

Now, as a new covenant Baptist, as someone who's in the new covenant, who has a Baptist framework, particularly throw that particular Baptist thing in there, but particularly for my Baptist covenant theology, I would see that we enter the new covenant by faith.

We entered the kingdom, that new covenant by faith. And then comes the sign of the covenant, baptism. So the continuity is in both covenants, there's an entering into the kingdom and there is a sign. The discontinuity is in the old covenant, they enter in through birth.

New covenant, it's the new birth, being born again. Old covenant, it's circumcision for the sign. And new covenant, it's baptism for the sign. And I want to also point to, and I'll end it with this, just to show my view real quick.

In John chapter three, I'm sorry, not John chapter three, forgive me, Matthew chapter three. Verse 11, John the Baptist speaking. He says, So right here, I just want to point out that in this one verse, Matthew 3 .11, there's three baptisms.

One is literal, like in water. John said, I baptize you. Right here, it says, I baptize you with, excuse me. Yeah, I indeed baptize you with water. So that's the literal baptism in water. But he who is coming after me, speaking of Jesus, he baptizes you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

All right.

So these two are the figurative sides of it. Spiritual, you could say, right? So Jesus is going to baptize some with the Holy Spirit and he will baptize some with fire. And I would see this fire as judgment.

You look at verse 10. It says,. That fire, I would say, is hell. Also in verse 12, it says,. And so I would see that fire as being hell. So in verse 10 and 12, those two fires are figuratively speaking about hell.

In verse 11, that fire baptism is also speaking about hell. It's sandwiched in between those two. And so this Holy Spirit baptism is what I'd see whenever someone has been regenerated through faith. They receive the Holy Spirit.

And so I'll end there for now.

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot in there that I agree with. I would say that the sign of the new covenant isn't given to non-believers. I would agree that we receive the Holy Spirit at regeneration. I don't know if you had a different order for that, but if that's what you meant, yeah, I would agree with that.

I would agree that only believers are members of the new covenant. But obviously, there are some disagreements as well, or else we'd both be Baptists.

We'll get into that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For those who aren't familiar, this gigantic book is the collected confessions of Lutherans here. It's huge. We're just comparing how big they are. So I'm not going to be able to go over everything that is said, because there's multiple, over a period of like 60 years, they wrote multiple confessions that talk about the Lutheran position on baptism.

But I'll go to a few key texts. One that I would start with, we're probably going to go to this later, but Acts 19, starting in verse 1, says, And it happened while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus.

And finding some disciples, he said to them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed? So they said to him, We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit. And he said to them, Into what then were you baptized?

So they said, Into John's baptism. Then Paul said, John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. So there you have Paul being very confused, that they said, Hey, we don't even know whether there is a Holy Spirit.

And Paul's immediate confusion is, Well, what were you baptized into? So he gives them a water baptism, and they received the Holy Spirit. They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. They received the Holy Spirit.

And this is, I would say, the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Regeneration being born again. You don't even have to go to the Greek to hear it, just in the English, that re being again, and generation being from the same root as like Genesis.

So when we see that word regeneration, we're talking about being born again. It's significant in John chapter 3, where Jesus is talking about being born of the Holy Spirit, or being born of water and Spirit.

I believe he's talking about baptism there, that that is how you are regenerated, through water and the Spirit. I would say at the same time. And that's because baptism is for the remission of sins. I mean, it's a doctrine so important, and so universally accepted in the first couple centuries, that we see it in the apostles and Nicene creeds.

So a quote that I got from Luther is, what else is the remission of sins, but salvation and life from the dead? Like, what else could that mean? If you have your sins remitted, you're saved. You have life from the dead.

I mean, what more can you have? So when we ask like, who are the proper recipients of baptism? We're not asking, well, can they make a confession of faith, or are they old enough or anything like that?

We'd say the proper recipients of baptism are sinners. And since Romans 5, says that we're all sinners from the very earliest days, then even the youngest children are proper recipients of baptism. We actually had a really cool moment at church this year.

My son was born on Christmas Eve. And so on the Sunday, the Sunday...

New Year's Eve? I mean, New Year's?

Well, it was the Sunday that he was able to go. So like the next day, Christmas, was a Sunday, but we couldn't make it. We're still in the hospital. And then the Sunday after that, we baptized him, which is really cool because in the liturgical calendar, that day is the day where Jesus was circumcised.

And so pastor had a really cool analogy right there in front of him. Like, hey, I got an eight day old kid right here that we're baptizing, which was one of many reasons I pushed for it to happen so quickly.

And so, yeah, in that moment, Lutherans believe that they have their sins remitted. They have their sins washed away and that they received the Holy Spirit. This is also the promise that, you know, I know your Presbyterian friends that you go back and forth with always like to talk about Peter's sermon in Acts chapter two, where, let me find it.

Yeah, it says, then Peter said to them, this is starting in verse 38, repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit for the promises to you and to your children and to all who are far off, as many as the Lord, our God will call.

They'll look at that and just stop at, well, the promises to you and your children. So your children are part of that. But I remember as a Baptist looking at that and saying, well, it keeps going. I mean, he says to you and your children, to all who are far off.

So if that promise is just talking about some kind of outward covenant that you have available, that it's for everyone, everyone can receive that then. But the specific promise that he's saying for the promise is right before that.

Repent, let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And so the offer is be baptized, have your sins washed away, receive the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3 .5 refers to this as the washing of regeneration. There's multiple Old Testament imagery where we can look to. Isaiah 44 .3 says, For I will pour water on the thirsty land and streams on the dry ground.

I will pour my spirit upon your offspring and my blessing on your descendants. It's just notable that in pouring out the spirit, he's also pouring out water. That's the analogy. And so when we say that, you know, we believe in regenerate church membership, we don't have to say, well, this person is a member of the church through baptism, but we don't, you know, they're not necessarily regenerate yet.

They haven't had faith yet or whatever. We'd say that baptism is where God grants the baptized faith as part of regeneration, being born again. And so we don't need to make that distinction within the covenant because as Paul says in Romans, you're baptized into Christ's death.

So, I mean, what more could you ask to be baptized in? We don't.

Yeah.

Well, what more can you say? You're baptized into Christ's death. So you're not just baptized into some outer covenant. Christ's death, as we know from the institution of Lord's Supper, when Christ says, you know, this is the new covenant in my blood.

So if you're in the new covenant, you're in the blood of Christ. There is no distinction. So when we say that this is a baptized, regenerate, filled with the Holy Spirit, all those things, person, that person is in Christ in every way that I am in Christ.

And so there's, I mean, that's more or less baptismal regeneration.

Right, right. All right.

Well, you definitely said a lot of things that I disagree with.

As we knew.

Yeah.

The head was up.

Yeah.

That's why we're having this conversation. And so you mentioned some verses that I know we're going to walk through. And so I want to kind of point out, and we don't have to answer these yet.

Sure.

But just some areas. So for some reason, my computer seems to be OK.

Here it goes.

So I would say that the promise in Acts two thirty eight is the Holy Spirit, that it's not the promise isn't baptism.

I agree that the promise is of the Holy Spirit. OK, good. All right.

Cool.

All right.

And so would you say that that John's baptism was. I mean, like the text says, it's for the remission of sins.

Yeah.

OK, so is that salvific?

I would say that John's baptism is pointing to the remission of sins. That's why I brought up the acts. What was it? Acts nine that we're talking about, because Paul clearly says that these are two different baptisms.

Yeah.

But it wasn't. I mean, like so when Jesus tells that that that the the lame man that was carried in by his friends.

Right.

He was lowered in into the roof and his friends were expecting him to heal him. But the first thing he says to him was, your sins are forgiven.

Yeah.

Was was that salvific?

Was that salvific? To have your sins forgiven, is that salvific?

I mean, because of the sacrificial system, in one sense, their sins were forgiven.

Right.

Yeah.

You see what I'm saying? It was like a covering.

Right.

So like like I would say that that when Jesus tells that man that his sins are forgiven, it's it's in that same outlook of that sacrificial system, the way that it would cover the sin, his sins. And I would say the same thing concerning John's baptism.

OK.

All right.

Yeah.

We'll definitely walk through it. I'm just kind of like kind of showing my hand, my cards.

Right.

Sure.

So what verse do you want to walk through first? I know you read. You read several. You said Titus three, five. You didn't do John three. Did you do John three?

I mentioned it, didn't really walk through it. I think John three is a fine place to start.

Yeah.

Because I know that the verses that you text me, correct me if I'm wrong, is Titus three, five. John three, three through five. Acts 19, one through seven. Acts two, 38 through 39. Acts 22, 16. And then I mentioned first Peter three, 18 through 21.

Those are the ones.

Yeah.

Yeah.

OK.

Yeah.

So let's. So which one do you say you want to go to first?

John three.

OK.

I think it's a good place to start.

Yeah. Yeah.

I love this. And you said that you're reading from the New King James as well.

Yeah.

OK.

All right.

Do you want to read it? Do you want me to read it?

Oh, you can read it.

OK.

We'll start at verse one. It says, Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.

Jesus answered and said to him, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said to him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?

Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. So you would take. Would you separate three from five?

I would keep I would keep going.

OK.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, you must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.

So is everyone who is born of the spirit. So that because of he says, if I'm not mistaken, three different ways that he talks about being born. So he talks about being born again, being born of the spirit.

And then he says. Being born of water and the spirit. So I would say that those three are all talking about the same thing. Do you agree with that?

Well, maybe. So I would say. That verse three is introducing regeneration to us, and it's more fleshed out in verse five. And with that, it speaks about that spiritual birth that I mentioned earlier from from Matthew three.

I named off three different baptism. One was the literal baptism in water. The other one was the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And then the other one, which it doesn't mention the baptism of fire here. And so and so I would say that the regeneration part of verse three, it says you cannot see.

And this is with your eyes. Right. You cannot see, meaning you you have no idea what God is doing. There's no way that you can believe. What's taken place in God's redemptive history, unless first you're born again, like you cannot even see it, much less enter in it.

Right. And then in verse five, it kind of hashes out the. Where it says most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and water here, I would see as the regeneration, not literal baptism. And I'm the spirit.

So let's talk about that. Why is water not water? I guess. Why is water not the water of baptism?

Right. Right. That's it. That's definitely a good answer, because like like like my view of baptism, like when I'm interpreting scripture, I always interpret baptism as wet. Unless the context drives me away from it.

You see what I'm saying? And I believe Jesus here in our context is pointing back to an Old Testament prophecy from Ezekiel chapter 36.

OK. Do you want to read that for us?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So in Ezekiel 36, beginning in verse 25, this is God speaking. Verse 25 introduces where I would say is that water that Jesus is speaking about in John 3 5. It says, Then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you shall be clean.

I will cleanse you from all of your filthiness and from all your idols. Verse 26, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. I will take out your heart of stone. I mean, your heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and you will keep my judgments and do them. So here I see like like like a lot of people, they talk about the order of Saludas, the order of salvation.

I believe it's laid out right here in this text. So first in chapter I mean, verse 25, the water of regeneration. God is going to sprinkle us with clean water. Right. And then it talks about a removing of the heart and given a new heart and also putting his spirit in us.

So I would see the heart of stone that's being removed from us because I mean, you know, like we really don't have. Like if you were to cut me 25 years ago before I became a Christian, cut me open and pull out my heart, it wouldn't be stone.

You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Not literal. So this heart of stone, I see that as self-righteousness. Self-righteousness. And I would see this as a part of what takes place in regeneration. In regeneration, the sprinkling of clean water, he removes our heart of self-righteousness.

There's a way that seems right to a man, but the end, therefore, leads to death. That's that self-righteous heart. And he gives us a heart of flesh. And I would see this heart of flesh as a heart of faith.

So when he puts that heart of flesh in us, then that's him giving us faith to believe. And once we believe, we receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes by faith. And so the order of salutis would be regeneration.

The sprinkling with clean water, removing of the heart of stone, giving a heart of flesh. Faith because we have that heart of faith, that heart of flesh. And by believing, trusting God in faith, we receive the Holy Spirit.

Okay. So you would say that the water in Ezekiel 36 is talking about regeneration?

Right. And I would also say that in John 5 because you can't see the kingdom.

In John 3.

Let's enter it. Yeah. So in John 3 and 35, I would say that the first part of it, the regeneration would be forensic transaction. And then where it talks about water and spirit. So in order to receive the spirit, you have to have the heart of stone removed and given a heart of flesh, which is the heart of faith.

And I would see this as the ethical transformation. So the first part of it, forensic transaction. This is regeneration. Second part of it, we can now see because of our new birth. We can see the kingdom of God and we walk in, we enter that kingdom.

We enter that covenant by faith. And that's the ethical transformation. And through our faith, we receive the Holy Spirit. And then I would say we are baptized. We are born again. We receive the sign of the covenant.

Right. So I find it. Okay. So you're pointing from John 3. You're saying this is talking about fulfilling a prophecy of Ezekiel 36.

Correct. I believe Jesus had that scripture in mind.

And I think that's an awesome connection.

Yeah.

Totally agree that that's probably one of the things on his mind using that. But again, we have another passage where we're talking about water, talking about regeneration, and we're talking about receiving the Holy Spirit.

All three together in both of these passages. So when I see, then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. So this is, you know, I know I'm going to the first Peter passage, but this is the baptism now saves you.

Not as cleansing of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience. Well, what's a good conscience? Being cleansed from all your filthiness, from all your idols. That's what God does.

And Peter's saying that we get that through baptism, which is in Ezekiel 36. We're receiving that through the sprinkling of clean water on you and becoming clean. So I would say that's the remission of sins.

I will give you a new heart, put a new spirit within you.

But we both already agreed that remission of sins is not necessarily salvific. See, that's the trouble with the churches of Christ. They say forgiveness of sins, which baptism does point to. I mean, I'm 100 with the creeds, but they see that as the salvation.

Well, would you say that? I mean, of course you affirm that baptism is for the remission of sins.

Absolutely.

I mean, everyone affirms that exact verbiage. But what would that mean to you that baptism is for the remission of sins? What happens at baptism that is the remission of sins?

Yeah, so again, I'm looking at it in the order of salvation, right? And so as a new covenant believer, I'm partaking in the sign of the covenant. And so, which I know that you know this, you have your own 1689.

Yeah.

So let me just read real quick. Verse chapter 29, paragraph one, just to kind of because I know I mentioned that we see this as the sign of the covenant. But it says paragraph one of chapter 29. Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament ordained by Jesus Christ to those baptized.

It is a sign of their fellowship with him in his death and resurrection of their being grafted into him of remission of sins and of submitting themselves to God through Jesus Christ to live and walk in the newness of life.

All right.

So we do not see this as an empty sign.

Right.

When I I don't see baptism as a symbol. I see it as a sign. Symbols don't necessarily carry information. A sign you when you see a sign. There's, you know, like if we take a literal sign, we're driving down the road, there's a sign.

If I see a sign that says Walmart, me being familiar with what's inside Walmart, I have information in my head of what I can purchase if I go into Walmart. So I see it as a sign. And the sign, therefore, points to Jesus's death, burial and resurrection.

John, I mean, Romans six. Right. All right. So the the order that I see takes place would be the regeneration, faith, Holy Spirit. And in our baptism, which represents the forgiveness of sins, like Galatians tells us, we put on Christ in our baptism.

We put Christ on Romans 13, 14, put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision to satisfy the flesh. I see that as baptism and actual being baptized. Yeah. You see what I'm saying?

But what you're saying with the with the analogy of the Walmart sign, for instance, that probably not a good analogy. Well, but I think it's a good analogy because what I see, what I'm perceiving you as doing, you could be not doing this, but it seems like you're taking the sign and the thing signified and saying that these are two separate things.

And that, well, when you say that the sign points to a truth, right, what is the truth that's being pointed to? Not a potential truth.

Yeah. Well, I don't I don't necessarily see forgiveness of sins being salvific. Even in the new covenant, we're saved before we partake in the in the sacrifice and before we say partake in the sacrifice.

Speaking of Jesus, like I'm identifying myself, I'm taking the covenant, him being buried, me being buried with him in baptism and to his death, burial and resurrection. Yeah. And so I actually believe that that is the forgiveness of sins.

I think it's important. And once we get to Acts 238, I'll really walk through that. I'm trying not to get too far ahead of myself in this one verse. But I. But it's not empty. I just don't think it's salvific.

I know you're saying like this, you're talking about the order of Seleucus. But I think if you just take this as a prophecy about baptism. It's pretty straightforward.

But here's my problem with it. Here's my problem with it. You cannot see the kingdom. He's speaking to people who have an understanding of sight. Babies don't have an understanding of sight. All right.

And entering into like this is with your feet, like it's given that idea. So so unless this first happens, you cannot enter in. And I would say that that entering in is by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

And so before I can enter in by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, something first must happen. And I would say that that's regeneration. That's the sprinkling of clean water. The removal of my heart of stone, given the heart of flesh, the removal of my heart of self-righteousness.

I can do what I want to do. I am God. So on and so forth. Gives me a heart of flesh, heart of faith to pastuo, to trust Christ.

Yeah. So I agree that we're talking about regeneration. And you'd say entering the kingdom of God is regeneration.

No, I'm saying that entering the kingdom, seeing the kingdom is regeneration. Entering the kingdom is by faith. You're saved by grace through faith. And that is not of yourself that in the near sense of seated to that.

That is not of yourself is faith. And I would say we're given the gift of faith to believe.

I would say that we are formally admitted into the kingdom through baptism. Because when he says, most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water in the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Right.

So. So spirit baptism. What would you say there?

Because. Yeah. Water baptism and spirit baptism, we would say, are the same baptism. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. There's not two baptisms that we have to go through. It's the same baptism. That's why you see an axe.

When we were talking about Acts nine that these people said, well, yeah, we were we were baptized, but we don't know anything about the Holy Spirit. So he's talking about John's baptism. And then he says, well, what were you baptized into?