Baptism: Reformed Baptist / Lutheran

Open Air Theology

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August 3, 2023

Join us tonight as a Reformed Baptist, and a Lutheran have a conversation about baptism.

00:05: You can say what you want, but you won't around me. Black sheep among misfits, a misfit in the trailer park at night.
00:42: A misprint with the sixth sense, been sick ever since my brother died of an OD. My two cents never made sense, either to me or anyone else inside of the sheep fence.
00:53: My 9th Smith on my right side. Why you staring at your cop dot sign and my
00:59: John Hancock on the dotted line? Tell me what's the bottom line. The bottom line is
01:04: I'm not right. I'm not left, but this elephant won't fight. There's nothing left but the spotlight.
01:10: Hold my beer, you can find me in the moonlight. You can say what you want, but you won't around me.
01:19: You can say what you want, but you won't around me. I'm within the deep end, and I can't find my assigned seat to sit in.
01:31: My theology don't fit in. Black sheep of the Reformation sheep pen. To the
01:36: Reformed, I'm just another Baptist baptized again. The bastard child of Anabaptist, poster child of Reformation society.
01:45: We don't need your education. Give me a Bible and a bookshelf of dead men.
01:51: Cigars, bourbons, and beer cans. Bow ties, tattoos, and bearded men. Making Reformation great again.
01:59: You can say what you want, but you won't around me.
02:05: You can say what you want, but you won't around me.
02:12: No, you won't around me. All right, ladies and gentlemen, we are live.
02:23: Thank you for tuning in. My name is Jeff, and this is Open Air Theology. I am one of the elders at Covenant Reformed Baptist Church here in Tullahoma, Tennessee.
02:33: If you're ever around this area, please stop by and hang out with us. We have a full meal after every service.
02:40: That way we can have a conversation, talk theology, make fun of each other, and all that good stuff.
02:47: Well, as you can see, my other co -hosts are not here tonight. But I do have a guest, and I'm going to let him introduce himself.
02:55: Yeah, I'm Sean Russell. I'm the local Lutheran for this episode.
03:02: You reached out and wanted a Lutheran on, so here I am. I've got a bachelor's degree in theology from California Baptist University, so hoping that that does some good in this discussion, and yeah, glad to be here.
03:21: Yeah, well, it turns out that he used to be a Reformed Baptist, and he's left the
03:29: Black Sheep Gang, and he's moved over to the other side of the ball field where they baptize babies and all that other good stuff.
03:42: I actually didn't know that I had it on until I ... It's just by God's providence, my
03:49: Credo over Pedo shirt. Well, it's actually showing my journey from Credo pointing to Pedo.
03:57: That's what it's actually showing. Yeah, well, so him and I got on here a little earlier just to figure out the format and have a conversation, and it's been a joy so far.
04:12: So I made a comment on someone's post, and I can't remember exactly what was said, but I was having a disagreement with another guy, and Sean chimed in, well, not really challenged, but the other guy was getting really hardcore on me, and so I invited him on the podcast to have a conversation, and then
04:37: I asked Sean, and he gladly took me up on that offer. We were supposed to have this last week, but I had a dentist appointment, and they really jacked me up.
04:47: I came home in a lot of pain and unable to talk really well, so he was kind enough to let me counsel last week and to have it this week.
04:59: But, yeah, so let's get into it, man. Do you want me to go first on my position?
05:08: Yeah, go ahead. Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I said earlier, so I hold to what's called
05:14: Baptist covenant theology. It has been coined as 1689 federalism.
05:20: I don't call it that personally. I used to, but every time
05:27: I would, I would have to sit there and explain what that meant, and so I find it easier to just say
05:35: Baptist covenant theology. A great majority of Baptists hold to basically a
05:42: Presbyterian view of covenant theology, a classical covenant theology with baptism stamped onto it, kind of like a
05:50: Band -Aid. But, you know, whenever you're fully emerged in water, Band -Aids seem to not stay on the body, and so as I'm working my way through covenant theology,
06:01: I have found that Baptists reading the older works had their own view of covenant theology.
06:09: So that's what I hold to, and basically, just to put it in a nutshell, we believe that the covenant of grace is the new covenant.
06:19: So I would see that the covenant made with Adam, Abraham, Moses, and David, all those are a covenant of works, and that when
06:34: Christ came, he fulfilled those covenants. Therefore, we're living in the blessing of his fulfillment, that is, in the covenant of grace.
06:48: And so the key verse that people go to is Genesis 3, 15, and I'll read that real quick.
06:53: Genesis chapter 3, verse 15, this is God pronouncing a curse, which is a blessing to us, but a curse on the serpent.
07:02: He says to him, I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed.
07:14: He, speaking of her seed, shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
07:22: So right here, when it comes to covenant theology, we all agree that this is the proclamation of the covenant of grace, right?
07:33: Presbyterian covenant theology would say that this is where the covenant of grace begins.
07:39: So Adam is the only one under a covenant of works. Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic are all different administrations of the covenant of grace.
07:55: But when I see this, I see both a promise and a fulfillment. The promise is a seed is coming from the woman.
08:05: A seed is coming. The fulfillment is when the seed bruises the head of the serpent while only bruising his heel.
08:16: And everyone holding to covenant theology, even dispensationalism, I'm not sure what
08:23: Lutheranism holds, you can explain that if you want, would say that this is, the fulfillment of this is
08:29: Christ on the cross. When Christ was crucified, that is when he bruises the head of the serpent while only bruising his heel.
08:39: Now, to speak about continuity and discontinuity, this will bring us into my view of baptism.
08:49: So continuity will be the things that are alike in the new covenant, the old covenant and the new covenant, and discontinuity will be how they are not alike.
09:01: So in the old covenant, whenever a male child was born, he was in the kingdom.
09:08: He was born, he was in the kingdom. And then eight days later, he would receive the covenant sign, which is circumcision.
09:18: Now, as a new covenant Baptist, as someone who's in the new covenant and who has a
09:23: Baptist framework, particularly throw that particular Baptist thing in there, but particularly for my
09:31: Baptist covenant theology, I would see that that we enter the new covenant by faith.
09:37: We entered the kingdom, that new covenant by faith. And then comes the sign of the covenant baptism.
09:45: So the continuity is in both covenants. There's an entering into the kingdom and there is a sign.
09:53: The discontinuity is it's in the old covenant. They enter in through birth.
09:59: New covenant. It's the new birth being born again. Old covenant. It's circumcision for the sign and new covenant.
10:08: It's baptism for the sign. And I want to also point to and I'll end it with this just to show my view real quick.
10:21: And John chapter three. I'm sorry, not
10:26: John chapter three, forgive me. Matthew chapter three. Verse 11,
10:35: John the Baptist speaking. He says, I indeed baptize you with water and to repentance.
10:45: But he who is coming after me is muddier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
10:52: He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. So right here,
10:58: I just want to point out that in this one verse, Matthew 311, there's three baptisms.
11:04: One is literal, like in water. John said, I baptize you.
11:12: Right here, it says, I baptize you with. Excuse me.
11:19: Yeah, I indeed baptize you with water. So that's the literal baptism in water.
11:27: But he who is coming after me, speaking of Jesus, he baptizes you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
11:34: All right. So these two are the figurative sides of it. Spiritual, you could say.
11:40: Right. So Jesus is going to baptize some with the
11:47: Holy Spirit. And he will baptize some with fire.
11:52: And I would see this fire as judgment. You look at verse 10. It says, And the axe is laid to the root of the tree and any tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
12:03: That fire, I would say, is hell. Also, in verse 12, it says,
12:09: The woodland fan is in his hand and he will thoroughly cleanse the threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn.
12:15: But the chaff he will burn with an unquenchable fire. And so I would see that fire as being hell.
12:22: So verse 10 and 12, those two fires are figuratively speaking about hell.
12:30: In verse 11, that fire baptism is also speaking about hell.
12:36: It's sandwiched in between those two. And so this Holy Spirit baptism is what
12:42: I'd see whenever someone has been has been regenerated through faith.
12:50: They receive the Holy Spirit. And so I'll end there for now.
12:58: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot in there that I agree with. I would say that the sign of the new covenant isn't given to nonbelievers.
13:14: I would agree that we receive the
13:20: Holy Spirit at regeneration. I don't know if you had a different order for that, but if that's what you meant.
13:27: Yeah, I would agree with that. I would agree that only believers are members of the new covenant.
13:40: But obviously there are some disagreements as well or else we'd both be Baptist. Yeah, we'll get into that.
13:47: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For those who aren't familiar, this gigantic book is the collected confessions of Lutherans here.
14:01: It's huge. We're just comparing how big they are. So I'm not going to be able to go over everything that is said because there's multiple.
14:14: Over a period of like 60 years, they wrote multiple confessions that talk about the
14:20: Lutheran position on baptism. But I'll go to a few key texts, one that I would start with.
14:28: We're probably going to go to this later. Acts 19, starting in verse 1, says, saying to the people that they should believe on him who would come after him, that is on Christ Jesus.
15:09: When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the
15:14: Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. So there you have
15:21: Paul being very confused that they said, Hey, we don't even know whether there is a
15:33: Holy Spirit. And Paul's immediate confusion is, well, what were you baptized into? So he gives them a water baptism, and they received the
15:45: Holy Spirit. They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. They received the Holy Spirit. And this is,
15:52: I would say, the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Regeneration being born again.
15:59: You don't even have to go to the Greek to hear it. Just in the English, that re being again and generation being from the same root as like Genesis.
16:11: So when we see that word regeneration, we're talking about being born again. It's significant in John chapter 3, where Jesus is talking about being born of the
16:23: Holy Spirit or being born of water and spirit. I believe he's talking about baptism there, that that is how you are regenerated through water and the spirit.
16:36: I would say at the same time. And that's because baptism is for the remission of sins.
16:44: I mean, it's a doctrine so important and so universally accepted in the first couple centuries that we see it in the
16:53: Apostles and Nicene creeds. So a quote that I got from Luther is, you know, what else is the remission of sins but salvation and life from the dead?
17:06: Like, what else could that mean? If you have your sins remitted, you're saved.
17:12: You have life from the dead. I mean, what more can you have? So when we ask, like, who are the proper recipients of baptism?
17:23: We're not asking, well, can they make a confession of faith or are they old enough or anything like that?
17:32: We'd say the proper recipients of baptism are sinners. And since Romans 5 says that we're all sinners from the very earliest days, then even the youngest children are proper recipients of baptism.
17:49: We actually had a really cool moment at church this year. My son was born on Christmas Eve.
17:57: And so on the Sunday, the
18:02: Sunday. New Year's Eve? I mean, New Year's?
18:09: Well, it was the Sunday that he was able to go. So like the next day, Christmas was a Sunday, but we couldn't make it.
18:14: We're still in the hospital. Right. And then the Sunday after that, we baptized him, which is really cool because in the liturgical calendar, that day is the day where Jesus was circumcised.
18:27: And so pastor had a really cool analogy right there in front of him. Like, hey, I got an eight day old kid right here that we're baptizing, which was one of many reasons
18:37: I pushed for it to happen so quickly. And so, yeah, in that moment,
18:44: Lutherans believe that they have their sins remitted. They have their sins washed away and that they have received the
18:55: Holy Spirit. This is also the promise that, you know,
19:02: I know your Presbyterian friends that you go back and forth with always like to talk about Peter's sermon in Acts chapter two.
19:14: Where, let me find it. Yeah, it says, then
19:23: Peter said to them, this is starting in verse 38, repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
19:31: And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit for the promises to you and to your children and to all who are far off as many as the
19:38: Lord our God will call. They'll look at that and just stop at, well, the promises to you and your children.
19:44: So your children are part of that. But I remember as a Baptist looking at that and saying, well, it keeps going.
19:51: I mean, he says to you and your children, to all who are far off. So if that promise is just talking about some kind of outward covenant that you have available, that it's for everyone, everyone can receive that then.
20:06: But the specific promise that he's saying for the promise is right before that.
20:15: Repent, let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the
20:20: Holy Spirit. And so the offer is be baptized, have your sins washed away, receive the
20:28: Holy Spirit. Titus 3 .5 refers to this as the washing of regeneration.
20:35: There's multiple Old Testament imagery where we can look to.
20:43: Isaiah 44 .3 says, For I will pour water on the thirsty land and streams on the dry ground.
20:49: I will pour my Spirit upon your offspring and my blessing on your descendants. It's just notable that in pouring out the
20:58: Spirit, he's also pouring out water. That's the analogy. And so when we say that we believe in regenerate church membership, we don't have to say, well, this person is a member of the church through baptism, but they're not necessarily regenerate yet.
21:22: They haven't had faith yet or whatever. We'd say that baptism is where God grants the baptized faith as part of regeneration, being born again.
21:35: And so we don't need to make that distinction within the covenant because, as Paul says in Romans, you're baptized into Christ's death.
21:47: So, I mean, what more could you ask to be baptized in? We don't.
21:55: Yeah. Well, what more can you say? You're baptized into Christ's death. So you're not just baptized into some outer covenant.
22:04: Christ's death, as we know from the institution of Lord's Supper, when
22:10: Christ says, you know, this is the new covenant in my blood.
22:16: So if you're in the new covenant, you're in the blood of Christ. There is no distinction.
22:24: So when we say that this is a baptized, regenerate, filled with the
22:30: Holy Spirit, all those things, person, that person is in Christ in every way that I am in Christ.
22:38: And so there's, I mean, that's more or less baptismal regeneration.
22:44: Right, right. All right. Well, you definitely said a lot of things that I disagree with.
22:52: As we knew, the head was up. Yeah, that's why we're having this conversation.
22:58: And so you mentioned some verses that I know we're going to walk through. And so I want to kind of point out and we don't have to answer these yet.
23:08: Sure. But just some some some areas. So for some reason, my computer seems to be.
23:16: OK, here it goes. So I would say that the promise in Acts two thirty eight is the
23:22: Holy Spirit, that it's not the promises and baptism. I agree that the promise is of the
23:30: Holy Spirit. OK, OK. All right. Cool. And so would you say that that John's baptism was
23:42: I mean, like the text says, it's for the remission of sins. Yeah. OK. So is that salvific?
23:51: I would say that John's baptism is pointing to the remission of sins.
23:57: That's why I brought up the Acts. What was it, Acts nine that we're talking about? Because Paul clearly says that these are two different baptisms.
24:07: Yeah, but it wasn't. I mean, like so when Jesus tells that that that the the lame man that was carried in by his friends.
24:19: Right. He was lowered in into the roof and his friends were expecting him to heal him.
24:25: But the first thing he says to him was, your sins are forgiven. Yeah. Was was that salvific?
24:35: Was that salvific? To have your sins forgiven. Is that salvific?
24:41: I mean. Because of the sacrificial system, in one sense, their sins were forgiven.
24:48: Right. Yeah. You see what I'm saying? It was like a covering. Right. So like like I would say that that when
24:57: Jesus tells that man that his sins are forgiven, it's it's in that same outlook of that sacrificial system, the way that it would cover the sin, his sins.
25:09: And I would say the same thing concerning John's baptism. OK. All right.
25:18: Yeah. And we're going to walk. We'll definitely walk through it. I'm just kind of like kind of showing my hand, my cards.
25:25: Right. Sure. So what verse do you want to walk through first? I know you read you read several.
25:31: You said Titus three, five. You didn't do John three. Did you do John three?
25:37: I mentioned it and really walk through it. OK. I think John three is a fine place to start.
25:42: Yeah, because I know that the verses that you text me, correct me if I'm wrong, is
25:47: Titus three, five. John three, three through five. Acts 19, one through seven.
25:54: Acts two, 38 to 39. Acts 22, 16. And then
26:00: I mentioned first Peter three, 18 to 21. Those are the ones. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Yeah.
26:06: So let's. So which one do you say you want to go to first? John three is a good place to start.
26:11: Yeah. Yeah. I love this. And you said that you're reading from the
26:17: King James as well. Yeah. OK. All right.
26:24: Do you want to read it? Do you want me to read it? Oh, you can read it. OK. We'll start at verse one.
26:29: It says now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him,
26:36: Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher. Come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.
26:48: Jesus answered and said to him, most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
27:00: Nicodemus said to him, how can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?
27:07: Jesus answered, most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
27:23: So you would take. Would you separate three from five?
27:30: I would keep I would keep going. OK. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit of spirit.
27:38: Do not marvel that I said to you, you must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.
27:47: So is everyone who is born of the spirit so that.
27:56: Because of he says, if I'm not mistaken, three different ways that he talks about being born.
28:05: So he talks about being born again, being born of the spirit. And then he says.
28:12: Being born of water in the spirit. So I would say that those three are all talking about the same thing.
28:23: Do you agree with that or. Well, maybe. So I would say that verse three is introducing regeneration to us.
28:40: And it's more fleshed out. And verse five.
28:45: And with that, it speaks about that spiritual birth that I mentioned earlier from from Matthew three.
28:52: I named off three different baptism. One was the literal baptism in water.
28:58: The other one was the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And then which it doesn't mention the baptism of fire here.
29:04: And so I would say that the regeneration part of verse three, it says you cannot see.
29:11: And this is with your eyes. Right. You cannot see. Meaning you you have no idea what
29:18: God is doing. There's no way that you can believe. What's taken place in God's redemptive history.
29:26: Unless first you're born again, you cannot even see it, much less enter in it.
29:33: Right. And then in verse five, it kind of hashes out the. Where it says most assuredly,
29:42: I say to you, unless one is born of water and water here, I would see as the regeneration, not literal baptism.
29:53: And I'm the spirit. OK, so let's talk about that. Why is water not water?
30:00: I guess. Why is water not the water of baptism? Right. Right. That's that's definitely a good answer, because like like like my view of baptism, like when
30:10: I'm interpreting scripture, I always interpret baptism as wet unless the context drives me away from it.
30:20: You see what I'm saying? And I believe Jesus here in our context is pointing back to an
30:28: Old Testament prophecy from Ezekiel, chapter 36. OK. Do you want to read that for us?
30:35: Yeah, absolutely. So in Ezekiel 36, beginning in verse 25, this is
30:45: God speaking. Verse 25 introduces where I would say is that water that Jesus is speaking about in John 3 5.
30:53: It says, then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you shall be clean.
31:00: I will cleanse you from all of your filthiness and from all your idols.
31:06: Verse 26, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you.
31:14: I will take out your heart of stone. I mean, your heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
31:21: I will put my spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and you will keep my judgments and do them.
31:31: So here I see, like like like a lot of people, they talk about the order of salvation. I believe it's laid out right here in this text.
31:41: So first in chapter, I mean, verse 25, the water of regeneration,
31:48: God is going to sprinkle us with clean water. Right.
31:54: And then it talks about a removing of the heart and given a new heart and also putting his spirit in us.
32:03: So I would see the heart of stone that's being removed from us because, I mean, you know, like we really don't have like if you were to cut me 25 years ago before I became a
32:15: Christian, cut me open and pull out my heart, it wouldn't be stone. You see what
32:21: I'm saying? Yeah. Not literal. So this heart of stone, I see that as self -righteousness.
32:27: Self -righteousness. And I would see this as a part of what takes place in regeneration.
32:34: In regeneration, the sprinkling of clean water, he removes our heart of self -righteousness.
32:42: There's a way that seems right to a man, but the end, therefore, leads to death. That's that self -righteous heart.
32:47: And he gives us a heart of flesh. And I would see this heart of flesh as a heart of faith.
32:53: So when he puts that heart of flesh in us, then that's him giving us faith to believe.
32:59: And once we believe, we receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes by faith.
33:08: And so the order of salutis would be regeneration. The sprinkling with clean water, removing of the heart of stone, giving a heart of flesh.
33:16: Faith, because we have that heart of faith, that heart of flesh. And by believing, trusting
33:21: God in faith, we receive the Holy Spirit. So you would say that the water in Ezekiel 36 is talking about regeneration?
33:34: Right. And I would also say that in John 5, because you can't see the kingdom, much less enter it.
33:43: So in John 3 and 35, I would say that the first part of it, the regeneration would be forensic transaction.
33:52: And then where it talks about water and spirit.
33:58: So in order to receive the spirit, you have to have the heart of stone removed and given a heart of flesh, which is the heart of faith.
34:05: And I would see this as the ethical transformation. So the first part of it, forensic transaction.
34:11: This is regeneration. Second part of it, we can now see because of our new birth.
34:20: We can see the kingdom of God and we walk in, we enter that kingdom, we enter that covenant by faith.
34:27: And that's the ethical transformation. And through our faith, we receive the Holy Spirit.
34:33: And then I would say we are baptized. We are born again. We receive the sign of the covenant.
34:39: Right. So you're pointing from John 3.
34:47: You're saying this is talking about fulfilling a prophecy of Ezekiel 36. Correct. I believe
34:53: Jesus had that scripture in mind. And I think that's an awesome connection. Totally agree that that's probably one of the things on his mind using that.
35:04: But again, we have another passage where we're talking about water, talking about regeneration, and we're talking about receiving the
35:16: Holy Spirit. All three together in both of these passages. Right.
35:22: So when I see, then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
35:30: So this is, you know, I know
35:35: I'm going to the first Peter passage, but this is the baptism now saves you.
35:42: Not as cleansing of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience. Well, what's a good conscience? Being cleansed from all your filthiness, from all your idols.
35:50: That's what God does. And Peter's saying that we get that through baptism, which is in Ezekiel 36.
35:58: We're receiving that through the sprinkling of clean water on you and becoming clean. So I would say that's the remission of sins.
36:06: I will give you a new heart, put a new spirit within you. But we both already agreed that remission of sins is not necessarily salvific.
36:18: Since that's the trouble with the churches of Christ, they say forgiveness of sins, which baptism does point to.
36:25: I mean, I'm 100 percent with the creeds, but they see that as the salvation.
36:32: Well, would you say that? I mean, of course, you affirm that baptism is for the remission of sin. Absolutely. I mean, everyone affirms that exact verbiage.
36:39: But what would that mean to you that baptism is for the remission of sins? What happens at baptism that is the remission of sins?
36:49: Yeah. So, again, I'm looking at it in the order of salvation.
36:56: Right. And so as a new covenant believer, I'm partaking in the sign of the covenant.
37:03: And so, which I know that, you know, that you have your own 1689. Yeah. So let me just read real quick.
37:10: Verse chapter twenty nine, paragraph one, just to kind of because I know
37:16: I mentioned that we see this as the sign of the covenant. But it says paragraph one of chapter twenty nine.
37:24: Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament ordained by Jesus Christ to those baptized.
37:30: It is a sign of their fellowship with him in his death and resurrection of their being grafted into him of remission of sins and of submitting themselves to God through Jesus Christ to live and walk in the newness of life.
37:51: All right. So we do not see this as an empty sign. Right. When I I don't see baptism as a symbol.
37:59: I see it as a sign. Symbols don't necessarily carry information. A sign you when you see a sign.
38:09: There's like if we take a literal sign, we're driving down the road, there's a sign.
38:15: If I see a sign that says Walmart, me being familiar with what's inside Walmart, I have information in my head of what
38:23: I can purchase if I go into Walmart. So I see it as a sign and the sign, therefore, points to Jesus's death, burial and resurrection.
38:34: John, I mean, Roman six. Right. All right. So the the order that I see takes place would be the regeneration, faith,
38:42: Holy Spirit, and in our baptism, which represents the forgiveness of sins, like Galatians tells us, we put on Christ in our baptism.
38:54: We put Christ on Romans 13, 14, put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision to satisfy the flesh.
39:01: I see that as baptism and actual being baptized. Yeah. You see what
39:07: I'm saying? But what you're saying. So with the with the analogy of the Walmart sign, for instance, that probably not a good analogy.
39:16: Well, but I think it's a good analogy because what I see, what
39:22: I'm perceiving you as doing, you could be not doing this, but it seems like you're taking the sign and the thing signified and saying that these are two separate things.
39:35: And that, well, when you say that the sign points to a truth. Right. What is the truth that's being pointed to?
39:44: Not a potential truth. Yeah. Well, again, I don't I don't necessarily see forgiveness of sins being salvific, even in the new covenant.
39:54: We're saved before we partake in the in the sacrifice and before we say partake in the sacrifice.
40:03: Speaking of Jesus, like like I'm identifying myself, I'm taking the covenant, him being buried, me being buried with him in baptism into his death, burial and resurrection.
40:14: Yeah. And so I actually believe that that is the forgiveness of sins. I think it's important.
40:20: And once we get to Acts 238, I'll really walk through that. And I'm trying not to get too far ahead of myself in this one verse.
40:28: But it's not empty. I just don't see it as salvific. I know you're saying like this, you're talking about the order of Seleucus.
40:37: But I think if you just take this as a prophecy about baptism.
40:44: It's pretty straightforward. But here's my problem with it. OK. OK, here's my problem with it.
40:51: You cannot see the kingdom. He's speaking to people who have an understanding of sight.
40:59: Babies don't have an understanding of sight. All right. And entering into like this is with your feet, like it's given that idea.
41:08: So so unless this first happens, you cannot enter in.
41:14: And I would say that that entering in is by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.
41:20: And so before I can enter in by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, something first must happen.
41:27: And I would say that that's regeneration. That's the sprinkling of clean water. The removal of my heart of stone, given the heart of flesh, the removal of my heart of self -righteousness.
41:38: I can do what I want to do. I am God. So I agree that we're talking about regeneration.
41:56: And you'd say entering the kingdom of God is regeneration. No, I'm saying that entering the kingdom, seeing the kingdom is regeneration.
42:05: Entering the kingdom is by faith. You're saved by grace through faith.
42:12: And that is not of yourself. That in the nearest sense of seated to that, that is not of yourself is faith.
42:19: Because I would say we're given the gift of faith to believe. I would say that we are formally admitted into the kingdom through baptism.
42:32: Because when he says, most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water in the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
42:41: So spirit baptism, what would you say there? Water baptism and spirit baptism, we would say, are the same baptism.
42:51: One Lord, one faith, one baptism. There's not two baptisms that we have to go through. It's the same baptism.
42:58: That's why you see in Acts, when we were talking about Acts 9, that these people said, well, yeah, we were baptized, but we don't know anything about the
43:09: Holy Spirit. So he's talking about John's baptism. And then he says, well, what were you baptized into?
43:15: I don't understand. How do you get baptized and not receive the spirit? Oh, because you weren't baptized in the name of Christ.
43:23: So for Paul, he seems to assume that what's in Acts 9, that if you are baptized into Christ, you are receiving the
43:33: Holy Spirit. And there's confusion on his part because they say, well, no, we didn't receive the Holy Spirit because we had
43:39: John's baptism. Yeah. So, but, you know, like it clearly separates it, born of water and, and this is, you know, a primary participle, which, you know, it can, you can translate it many ways and also even indeed.
43:59: And so there seems to be a separation unless you're born of water, also the spirit and the spirit.
44:07: Or even, I think even would be fine there. Unless you're born of water, even the spirit, because it's the same baptism.
44:14: I mean, there's not, you don't see us say, I would definitely see a separation there again.
44:20: And so I would say verse three and also part of verse five, speaking of the forensic transaction, the, we're talking about water here.
44:33: That's the forensic transaction. That's the regeneration aspect. You know,
44:39: I heard the gospel. I didn't believe I heard the gospel. Now I believe I went from shaking my fist to God, to bowing the knee to the
44:47: Lord Jesus, to bend the knee. And I agree with that, but I would say the reason he uses the word water to agree with what you're saying is because he's talking about baptism.
44:58: Now, would you say that that's for adults also? I mean, so when we talk about,
45:05: I'll just jump to this topic, because this is, this is a clarifying point, is that we believe that baptism in the
45:15: Lord's supper and, you know, the preaching of the word and these things that Christ has given us, these are means of grace.
45:24: Yeah. Okay. Normatively, this would be the means by which
45:31: God would meet out his grace to us. You know, faith comes by hearing.
45:41: And for Lutherans, we believe, I want to say one of the confessions that Luther wrote within the book of Concord, he talks about this, that the power of baptism is the word applied to the water.
45:57: So it's not just the mere water. It is the word through the water being applied directly to either a child or, you know, a hundred year old man.
46:07: It doesn't change. Right. Right.
46:13: All right. Well, so I'll ask this question. You answer it.
46:18: If you have another question, I'll answer it. Then we'll move on. How would you clear up this confusion?
46:26: So it says, most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
46:34: So if someone cannot see the kingdom, God, I'm talking about like a grown person. I'd also would include infants because like, like you're a, you know, you're your child could not see the kingdom of God.
46:50: Like, like even if it was something visual and tangible, seeing it with their eyes, they wouldn't be able to perceive what it was.
46:56: Right. And so, you know, like me, I'm an ex game. Yeah, I'm an ex game banger.
47:03: Right. I lived a pretty rough life. Like, I don't want to get into all that, but but, you know, without me coming to faith, there's no way that you would have got me under the water.
47:17: You see what I'm saying? So, yeah, I would have to come to faith. I would have to be able to see that kingdom with my eyes before entering into the waters of baptism.
47:27: And so how would you handle that? Whenever it says because no one's just going to decide to be baptized.
47:37: Like, sure. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Oh, they would.
47:42: I mean, yeah, they would have to be like I said, baptism is the normative way that someone is regenerated.
47:53: I mean, you see in in acts where people they, you know, they've received the
47:59: Holy Spirit. But the first thing after that is we got to get you baptized. Right, right. So these things, like I said, it's the normative way that people are brought into faith.
48:15: I would say that somebody who rejects baptism cannot be saved.
48:22: You know, you can be saved, but you don't quite make it to the baptismal waters.
48:28: You know, you you die on the on the car ride there or something like that. That that's what would separate us from, you know, crazy groups like the
48:37: Church of Christ. Oh, you died on the way there. You're done. Yeah, I think
48:43: Luther wrote a nice treaty about that because like they would have like a time of testing. I can't remember exactly what it was called.
48:50: But do you have any questions for me about that before we move to another one? No, I mean,
48:57: I think we covered it. Is there another verse particularly you want to jump to? Oh, boy.
49:06: I know you said you mentioned Acts 238 and let's see. Yeah, let's do Acts 238 because we've already brought that one up.
49:12: Yeah. And this one right here will kind of like you'll see me.
49:22: I'll agree on something that you just pointed out. Yeah. So if you just read, you know, 38 and 39, it says then
49:30: Peter. So Peter just got done preaching a beautiful gospel presentation. Then Peter said to them, them here being the
49:40: Jews who were there from all all around who came in, they were they were hearing the people speaking in their own language.
49:49: Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
49:56: And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit for the promise is for you and to your children and all those who are far off, as many as the world recall.
50:08: So you and I earlier, we agreed that the promise is the gift of the Holy Spirit. Yes. OK.
50:18: All right. So so if I was there's more than that, but it's not less than that.
50:23: It's not less than that. Yeah, absolutely. So if I was to break this down and how I how I did the other one, it had an order of salvation.
50:32: You can't there is no repentance without faith. You can't turn from something to nothing.
50:39: And so when it says repent, I automatically include faith.
50:47: You're turning. So Jesus. So he's speaking to a people who not long before this are probably in a crowd saying, give us
50:55: Barabbas, crucify Jesus. Right. Yeah. You know, they had to be there for that feast as well.
51:02: And so he's telling them that y 'all just crucified the
51:07: Lord and they hear the gospel. They cry out, what must we do?
51:14: And he's telling them to repent, to turn from whatever it is that you're trusting.
51:20: At this time would have been the sacrificial system. Turn from it and put your faith in Jesus Christ.
51:27: And then here comes the baptism, the baptism. So I perfectly agree with that statement.
51:35: If we put repentance with faith, because I don't believe that you can repent and not have something to turn to.
51:42: So you're turning from self -righteousness and you're turning to the righteousness of God according to Romans chapter 10.
51:50: That's Jesus Christ. And so faith and repentance. And you said something earlier.
51:56: So I'll give a little analogy. Let's say that three thousand people were baptized.
52:03: Right. I mean, that's a number. So let's say the guy at the very end of the line. Right. And and he's waiting to be baptized.
52:13: And before he gets there, he dies. And the guy that's standing beside him reports to Peter and says, hey, this guy, he was he was with me.
52:23: He repented. His faith is in Christ. But he he died before he could be baptized.
52:28: Yes. Is this guy in the kingdom? And I guarantee you, Peter would say, absolutely.
52:34: Absolutely. Sure. Hundred percent. Now, same scenario. But let's change it just a little bit.
52:42: The guy at the end is complaining. The line is too long. What am
52:47: I doing? And he says, you know what? It's not for me. Turns around and walks away, refuses to be baptized.
52:54: Yeah. The guy standing beside him tells Peter, hey, there was this other guy who's standing in line. He he he claimed to have repented.
53:01: He claimed to put his faith in Christ. But the line was too long. So he gave up and left. When he dies, is he going to be in the kingdom?
53:08: Peter would say, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I think that's fair.
53:15: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I take baptism very serious. It's the sign of the covenant.
53:21: If and if in the old covenant, they refused to circumcise their male child, they were cut off from the covenant people.
53:31: Yeah. To refuse baptism. Now, this might sound strange coming from a Baptist, but I take the word of God very serious to refuse baptism.
53:41: That calls for church discipline. Oh, yeah. Well, I don't think you'd even be a member of a church without baptism.
53:49: Right. You wouldn't be a member at my church. Yeah. I don't know what church would take you in. You're just like, well, there's a lot of baptism thing.
53:56: Well, I don't know if you saw the evangelical pool lately, but. Well, OK. So I just want you to know that I take baptism very serious.
54:06: I believe it is for the remission of sins, but I just don't believe the remission of sin is self -evident because I believe we're already saved before the remission of sins that that me taking part in a sign.
54:18: I believe the moment that I am regenerated, I have come to faith in Jesus Christ.
54:24: I am to receive the sign of the covenant. I don't think I need to wait six weeks, a year, however long.
54:32: I'm in the covenant. Give me the sign. Yeah. Give me the sign. Yeah. I want to put
54:39: Christ on. It says Romans 13, 14, put on the Lord Jesus Christ. Yeah.
54:44: Make no provision, therefore, for flesh. Galatians tells us that baptism is how we put
54:50: Christ on. Even the I just read the graph. What way would you say that you have not put
54:59: Christ on if you I'm using your framework? OK. You've accepted
55:06: Christ. You've, I don't know, prayed the sinner's prayer or whatever it is that you do to repent and put my faith in Christ.
55:13: OK. No sinner's prayer. Well, I mean, I guess I'm just asking. I know I'm I'm just having a having a laugh there, but.
55:23: I mean, there there's some moment something happens and you're.
55:30: You have your moment and now you're you've. Become regenerate, correct?
55:36: Right. You're saved. You're you're regenerate. Have you received the Holy Spirit at this point? Yes. By faith.
55:43: And then. Right. And then. In what way have you not put on Christ at that point?
55:52: Well, the text is clear. We do that through baptism. Before that, we are engrafted.
55:58: We are in Christ. So we're saved by grace through faith and regeneration.
56:04: Our faith. We're safe. We are in Christ. We're in him. Yeah. But we're also called to do something.
56:11: That's the covenant sign. And by which we put him on the see that.
56:16: So that that's the big difference is that I would agree with the first part of what you're saying.
56:22: And then. Well, then there's this extra baptism thing, but. Well, that's the
56:28: Christian baptism. Yeah. But but you're saying you've already received all these benefits.
56:34: Right. And then you get baptized. Right. Whereas. Which you would have to say the same thing.
56:41: Paul in Romans is saying that in in baptism, we are buried with Christ.
56:48: Yeah. And risen to walk in newness of life. Which, side note, that's
56:53: Luther's. Luther's treatise on baptism starts with that argument as, yeah, full immersion is the best way to do it.
57:02: But there's other ways to do it, too. Right. The did decay allow three glasses to be poured on you.
57:08: But Luther was a full immersion proponent. Yeah, I'm full immersion. But if I'm in a, you know, if I go visit someone in a hospital and they receive
57:19: Christ by faith and they want to be baptized, there's no place to baptize them.
57:24: I'm going to grab three glasses and do what the did decay says to do. Yeah. Right.
57:30: I mean, I'm not. You know, a fundamental Baptist to where I think, you know, a big toe popped out the water.
57:37: It didn't. Yeah. You know, like I'm not legalistic. Yeah. But I just want to take things as it's handed to me.
57:45: And so like. So would you say that you have to only be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, like the text says, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins?
57:55: Well, we're baptized into all three names. But Trinity, I mean, I think that.
58:01: But that doesn't say it. Right. I think saying that when when other writers will say baptize in the name of Christ, that that's just shorthand for betraying
58:16: God. Yeah. Which which Christ is one person. Yeah. Now I agree with you, but I want to push back on you because you challenged me with water.
58:25: It says water. It says water. Why don't you believe water? Sure. Right. So right here and also in Acts 19, it only says
58:34: Jesus Christ. It does not mention the trinity of God, which I listen. I believe
58:39: I baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Right. Right. But the two texts here that you pointed to just says
58:45: Christ. Why? Why are you not just baptizing in the name of Christ? Well, Christ himself says baptize in the name of the
58:52: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I know. So that is that is these are synonymous terms.
58:58: When you say he's talking about the one baptism, we only have the one. Yeah. Christian baptism.
59:03: Ephesians four. Right. One faith, one Lord, one baptism. Yeah. So that to say that it's just one baptism, to me, is one of the bigger arguments against dividing spirit baptism and water baptism.
59:23: Well, I showed you in John three that there's three baptisms that I mean, excuse me,
59:28: Matthew three. Matthew three spoke of three baptisms. He had the John baptized with water.
59:34: That's one. Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire. Yeah. And that fire is speaking about hell.
59:43: Context to the verse, verse 10, verse 12 is sandwiched. They both speak of fire and its judgment.
59:49: So verse 11. Right. That's sandwiched in between there. That fire has to be judgment. That spirit there.
59:57: You know, and I would see that as being regeneration. Yeah. Yeah. Baptizing with the spirit is synonymous with Christian water baptism,
01:00:08: I would say. And looking at Acts two, the last verse that we're looking at is that be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
01:00:19: And you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's that's the promise of baptism, remission of sins.
01:00:28: And you receive the Holy Spirit. Yeah. I don't know what else to call that, but regeneration.
01:00:34: And that's what Christ calls it in John chapter three. Yeah. Yeah. Now, now, now here's my problem with this text.
01:00:40: So I kind of outlined, you know, things that we agree on, kind of pushed on you a little bit and you push back.
01:00:48: So here's my problem with this text. It's ambiguous. How many different denominations and even cults build their whole denominations, these false cults on this singular text.
01:01:05: Right. So you have the one that's Pentecostals. It has to be in the name of Jesus Christ alone.
01:01:12: Yeah. All right. I mean, churches of Christ, which I would see them as as a cult as well.
01:01:17: I don't see Lutherans that way. I see Lutheran as my longest, my brother from another mother.
01:01:23: I appreciate that. Yeah. But, you know, so I don't see building doctrine off of any any passage in Acts because it's it's narrative versus didactic.
01:01:40: So we can read the letters to actually see the formation of how it goes. Now, I did mention if you want to move to didactic text, that's fine.
01:01:49: But I mean, I did mention that if I was to order it, I would
01:01:54: I would go from repentance, faith, baptism, like like what's clearly seen here.
01:02:01: Right. And so I believe repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin. You can't turn from some from something to nothing.
01:02:09: So do you believe that children can have faith? Children, yes, but faith comes by hearing and hearing of the word of God.
01:02:19: Galatians 3, Paul rhetorically asked a question to the Galatians. Did you receive the spirit by works of the law or by hearing and faith?
01:02:28: Right. So can babies hear? I don't believe infant babies can hear.
01:02:35: When I say children, I mean. Well, but I mean, like just in in general, like if I went up to a sleeping one day old infant and screamed in his face.
01:02:44: Yeah. What do you hear? Absolutely. Like you hear that. Right. So does he understand the gospel?
01:02:51: So, well, I didn't say faith comes by my intellectual assent to what
01:02:58: I'm hearing. It's just that's the power of God's word. I mean, so, you know,
01:03:05: John the Baptist recognizes Christ in the womb. Yeah, yeah.
01:03:10: Christ is in the womb. He's in the womb. But also the spirit came upon John. John wasn't indwelled with the spirit.
01:03:18: It's kind of like the Old Testament prophecy. When you read the Old Testament, the spirit would come upon people, then it would leave. It would come upon people, then it would leave.
01:03:26: That's how that's actually how you and I are greater than John. He's the greatest man ever born.
01:03:31: But the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than him. How? Because we have the
01:03:36: Holy Spirit dwelling in us. So we know that we know that the
01:03:41: Holy Spirit can temporarily come upon pre -born infants and give them faith to recognize
01:03:52: Christ. To understand what is in front of them. Not even just seeing, like he didn't even see
01:04:00: Jesus. He was able to recognize with no hearing, no seeing anything, but by the power of the spirit.
01:04:10: A pre -born child was able to recognize Jesus Christ. So there's no problem with God's pre -born child.
01:04:23: But here's the disconnect. Here's the disconnect. He was a prophet that the spirit come upon.
01:04:31: For you and I were not prophets. We received the spirit by faith alone in Jesus Christ.
01:04:38: Did you receive the spirit by works of the law or by hearing of faith? Romans 10, 17, faith comes by hearing, hearing of the word of God.
01:04:46: So faith comes by hearing the message. Hearing the message, we receive faith. And through that faith, we receive the
01:04:55: Holy Spirit. Okay. But babies can't hear that.
01:05:02: Well, so one thing you probably don't know about me, and I don't post a lot about it, is that I'm a street preacher.
01:05:10: So this Saturday, I will be on the side of the road and I have a big parking lot behind me. I'll be at an intersection and I'll be preaching the gospel.
01:05:18: And I've been preaching in this one spot near my house and near the church for three years now.
01:05:25: And I've had hundreds of people stop and talk to me. One person knew the gospel.
01:05:32: I would say 98 % of them claim to be Christians. One person knew the gospel.
01:05:39: And I don't understand how someone can be saved by a gospel they don't know.
01:05:49: If I told you that I was a Christian and you started asking me questions, and I didn't know
01:05:55: Jesus died on the cross or any of this stuff or my sins, would you start to question my faith?
01:06:03: You can't turn from something to nothing. Sure. Yeah. And so how can an infant turn to something?
01:06:14: An infant can't turn much less to something because they don't... What do you mean an infant can't turn?
01:06:21: Repentance. Repentance. Yeah. So we both agree. Repentance and faith. We both agree in accordance with Romans 5 that babies have original sin and are therefore guilty.
01:06:34: Absolutely. From the youngest preborn, they're guilty by being descended from Adam.
01:06:42: Yeah. The wages of sin is death. And that means death is our paycheck. If children are not born in sin, then children don't die.
01:06:51: Right. Because the wages of sin is death. Exactly. So we believe that children have something to repent from.
01:07:02: Can they repent? That's the whole thing. By the power of the Spirit, they can.
01:07:08: But they receive the Spirit by hearing and faith. But they have to be given faith first. Is that how
01:07:15: John received the Spirit? Is that how John the Baptist received the Spirit? John the
01:07:20: Baptist didn't receive the Holy Spirit like you and I have. He didn't have the indwelling Spirit. It came upon him like in the
01:07:26: Old Covenant. Like we saw the Spirit would come upon someone, then it would leave. Like David and Saul.
01:07:32: Like it would come upon them, then it would leave. And John was the last
01:07:37: Old Testament prophet. So when
01:07:48: David, in Psalm 22 .9, says,
01:07:57: From my mother's womb, you have led me to trust you. Let me get a better translation.
01:08:03: Hold on. He said 22 .9? 22 .9.
01:08:10: Yeah. Yeah, but you are he who took me out of my mother's womb. You made me trust while on my mother's breast.
01:08:21: Okay, so on his mother's breast. Hopefully that he's pretty young at that moment, right?
01:08:26: Unless he's like a five -year -old. Not cut the cord early enough. So we're talking about the youngest child.
01:08:37: You made me trust in you, even at my mother's breast. I mean, that's monergism 101.
01:08:46: It doesn't matter that I'm a baby who's just a bundle of instincts that sees my mother's breast.
01:08:56: And that's the one thing that my whole world wraps around is where's food coming from. But you made me trust in you.
01:09:06: At that age, at that early, early age, God made me trust in him.
01:09:11: That's what David is saying. Now, again, I don't want to build doctrine off of that. How old are you?
01:09:20: You don't mind my asking? 34. 34. Okay, I'm 43. How long have you been a
01:09:26: Christian? It was 20 years in January, I want to say.
01:09:35: Yeah, very good. Now, can you, in hindsight, because I believe
01:09:42: David's speaking in hindsight. Can you, in hindsight, look back at your life and see how
01:09:47: God has caused you to trust him even before you were a Christian? Because I can.
01:09:54: No, there was a point in my life where I began to trust in Christ.
01:10:00: I'm not talking about like that. I'm not talking about like that. I'm talking about like, can you look back and see
01:10:07: God's hand on your life before you were a Christian? Sure. Yeah.
01:10:13: Yeah. That's how I believe that David is speaking here. In hindsight, seeing
01:10:20: God's governing hand on him. Okay. But again,
01:10:25: I just don't want to build doctrine off of the psalm. I think it's. Sure. I try my best when it comes to,
01:10:32: I'm laying out theology. Yeah. I use this to kind of, you know, navigate some things, but.
01:10:38: Yeah, I guess like just to kind of close that, that whole, my thoughts on what we're just talking about, about children believing.
01:10:46: Right. We know that the Holy Spirit can and has, at least temporarily at times, gotten to a child who hadn't even been born yet and gave him faith.
01:11:04: Faith enough to, when he leaved, he filled his mother with the Holy Spirit. Right. So I don't see a problem in saying that the youngest of children can.
01:11:17: But an infant. Saving faith. An infant. Being the gift of God. An infant. So that's the thing.
01:11:24: So again, I got a seven -year -old son and I got a two -year -old son.
01:11:30: Yeah. All right. If my two -year -old, which cannot talk, was to say that he had faith in Christ, I would probably say, ah, okay, let's talk about it.
01:11:41: But if my seven -year -old, who has been sitting under my preaching now for quite a long time,
01:11:48: I mean, like there's one time he told me, he said, I'm almost a Christian. Like, I'm almost there. But if he was to walk up to me and desire and tell me that Jesus Christ is his
01:11:59: Lord and he desires to be baptized. Brother, I'm not going to waste another moment. The next
01:12:05: Lord's Day, we're baptizing. Sure. And yeah, I understand that. Like, I think that a lot of,
01:12:13: I mainly see this from Presbyterians that will just try to harp on Baptists and say, well, you don't believe that children can have faith.
01:12:20: I understand that Baptists fully recognize that children can fully understand the gospel.
01:12:26: They try to make it like we hate our children. Yeah, I've always hated that. I don't like strawmans and stuff like that.
01:12:35: But I will always tell them they stow their kids' baptism. When they pick on me, I just pick back. So, you know, contrary to what some unlearned internet
01:12:46: Lutherans will tell you, Lutherans are very monergistic, according to our confessions. And baptism, we would say, is a monergistic regeneration.
01:12:59: And that faith, when we say that faith is the gift of God, we mean that. There's nothing that we did to receive that faith, even mental ascent.
01:13:09: That faith is given to us as a pure gift that we've done nothing to receive.
01:13:16: In fact... Would you say that it's through hearing the Word? Yeah. And, you know, in baptism, we have the
01:13:23: Word applied to the baptism. We have the name of the Triune God is applied to the water.
01:13:32: And so they are receiving the power of that Word in their baptism.
01:13:40: Even someone like... I have an autistic daughter. She just turned three. And she was...
01:13:47: I don't know if she had even... I think just before she was two years old, she was baptized.
01:13:53: Because that's when we converted. And it was the most monergistic baptism that you could imagine.
01:14:01: Because she was kicking and screaming. And she couldn't understand why we were, like, holding her so tight.
01:14:09: And pouring water on her now. And all this. But now...
01:14:16: She doesn't say a lot of words. But now one of the few words that she'll say is
01:14:22: Jesus Christ. This is an autistic three -year -old who says almost no words.
01:14:32: She's never said, I love you. She's never said... She says mommy and daddy, but in the context of mommy shark and daddy shark.
01:14:40: Right, right. Because she knows her shows. Right. But she knows the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Now, I do take exceptions to stuff like that.
01:14:57: I used to be a Presbyterian. I don't know if you knew that about me. I did not know that. So don't let anyone ever say that it never goes the other way.
01:15:06: Yeah, yeah. My 13 -year -old, she was baptized as an infant. Right. But she hasn't been baptized as a believer.
01:15:14: And so I don't let her partake in the supper. Okay. So I know it's...
01:15:21: I don't know how much time you got. But I at least want to get to that First Peter passage or something didactic. But I also wanted to pick on you just for a second.
01:15:29: Oh, please do. Please do. Yeah. You know, just because we're talking salvation.
01:15:37: And I want to take you to a text that I stump a lot of people on.
01:15:43: Especially Churches of Christ. Because, well, you had to be baptized. You know what I'm saying? And people, they just want to take the text by itself as it is.
01:15:54: Literal. Wooden. As possible. And so I'll take them to this verse. I'm going to take you there, too. And...
01:16:02: Crap. I missed it. Okay. I'm over here playing with a new Bible.
01:16:07: I got me a wide margin. NKJV wide margin to mark up. I haven't got it rebound yet.
01:16:13: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's going to be beautiful once it's done. So in 1
01:16:19: Timothy chapter 2, the end of it. Verse 15 speaks about a different salvation.
01:16:30: Nevertheless, she will be saved in childbearing. If they continue in faith, love, holiness, and self -control.
01:16:41: Now, is that speaking of another way of salvation? It's talking about Eve giving birth to the
01:16:50: Messiah who will save the world. See, that's where your Covenant Baptist just came into play.
01:16:57: No. I mean... Come on. It's pretty clear. I mean...
01:17:02: It's clear in the text, right? Yeah. I mean... It's speaking about the offspring.
01:17:11: I read from Genesis chapter 3 earlier, verse 15, talking about that seed that's coming from the woman.
01:17:17: This right here is talking about that seed. That that seed is how she,
01:17:23: Eve, in the context, it's speaking of Eve, is going to be saved. Right?
01:17:28: Yes. And I would say that sums up my belief. We're saved by Christ.
01:17:36: We're regenerated through the gospel, given faith to believe. The heart of stone is removed.
01:17:43: He's given us a heart of flesh. And now that I'm in this covenant, I'm to be baptized. And I see it as a sign.
01:17:50: And I think 1 Peter is where we'll go right here. I mean, if that's okay with you. Yeah. Now, this is a hard text.
01:18:01: Right? Like, you want to talk about a text to interpret.
01:18:06: When I was a 1689 Federalist, I found this to be a hard text. But now as a Lutheran, I find it to be a very easy text.
01:18:13: Yeah. Well, you see me as 1689 Federalist pointing to this text, saying, let's go here.
01:18:21: Yeah. Because there was a time in my life where I was afraid. Like, you know, I held to believers baptism, but I was afraid to defend it.
01:18:32: And then I was like, you know what? I got to get over this. I didn't like, you know, like I grew up as a gangbanger, always in confrontation and always fighting.
01:18:43: It took me a long time to figure out how to fight with words and not with my fist. Yeah. Does that make sense?
01:18:51: Yeah. And so I did not want to have any kind of confrontation. I didn't want it to, you know, something in my head to click and that old gangbanger come out of me.
01:19:04: All right. So would you mind reading it? Would that be okay? So 18 through 21,
01:19:12: I think it is. Yeah. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the spirit.
01:19:24: By whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient when once the divine long -suffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water.
01:19:37: There is also an antitype which now saves us, baptism, not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God.
01:19:46: Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to him.
01:19:56: Yeah. So, so surface level, face value. Yeah.
01:20:02: Seems like you've won this, but. Right. I haven't even begun.
01:20:08: But just like in the first Timothy two passage, like you can't take that at face value surface level.
01:20:19: And so you have to dig into it. Now, what I said was pretty surface level by just saying that she will be saved through childbearing is talking about a specific she,
01:20:30: Eve, who is right before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I want to point out that you used to be 1689
01:20:36: Federalist. Yes. And so your covenant theology kicked in. No.
01:20:41: Oh, come on. That's a plain reading of the text. It's not as plain as you think, because there's cults built on that.
01:20:48: Yeah. And I've stumped so many people with that verse. Yeah. And they don't know how to interpret it.
01:20:54: And then when I interpret it for them, they say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see that. I see that. I see that. Yeah. And so what
01:21:00: I'm saying is, just like with that, this is going to need more than just a surface level reading.
01:21:07: So then let me give the surface level and then you can tell me where I missed. Right. Well, you know,
01:21:15: I'm just giving my interpretation. Right. Right. OK. So the immediate context is the days of Noah.
01:21:28: Right. Once the divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah while the
01:21:34: Ark was being prepared in which a few that is eight souls were saved through water. So the type that is here is
01:21:46: Noah's Ark. Eight. Eight souls are saved through water.
01:21:53: So you're saying the type. That is the type. OK. And there's a specific reason I'm saying that, because he then says there is also an anti -type which now saves us.
01:22:06: So you have type, anti -type. That's how anti -types work. That's actually a transliteration. I just know that from remembering that.
01:22:14: But yeah. Like the ESV says corresponding to this. Like he doesn't say the word.
01:22:20: Yeah. It's like anti -Tupac or however you pronounce it. Correct. Yeah, it is. There's an anti -type which now saves us.
01:22:29: Baptism. So Noah was saved through the waters of the flood.
01:22:36: There's an anti -type which now saves us. Baptism. And it says not the removal of the filth of the flesh.
01:22:43: And I don't. So there's two ways because of the way that Greek is that you can either say the answer of a good conscience towards God.
01:22:54: Or you can say the answer to God for a good conscience or of a good conscience.
01:23:00: So because of the way that Greek doesn't have to be – the clauses don't have to be in order.
01:23:07: In English, they definitely do. So you can put whatever. But what we have is it's not the removal of filth from the flesh but an appeal to God for a good conscience.
01:23:28: So the difference that he's giving is between just like washing your hands or washing your whole body. This is washing your conscience.
01:23:35: You have a good conscience. So I would say that is the remission of sins. Right? You have a good conscience.
01:23:41: That's what it is. Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ who has gone to heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels in authority and powers having been subject to him.
01:23:51: That's all pretty straightforward. But again, like baptism tied to the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
01:24:05: We're talking about being saved. That is the way that we are saved by Christ's death, burial, resurrection.
01:24:13: Ascension, session. I mean there's the whole life of Christ. So when it says baptism now saves us, we are saved from our sins the way that the type was
01:24:34: Noah having all the evil of the earth washed away around him.
01:24:39: And then he is saved through that water event. So that's that's the surface level.
01:24:48: You go ahead. Yeah. So so just to throw my answer out real quick.
01:24:58: Yeah. Right. And then kind of work it back in. I would say that the baptism here is not
01:25:05: Christian baptism, but it's the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
01:25:12: So like if you look in Luke chapter chapter 12. Beginning in verse forty nine.
01:25:21: So verse forty nine and fifty. Jesus says this. I came to send fire on the earth and how
01:25:30: I wished it were already kindled. But I have a baptism to be baptized with and how distressed
01:25:41: I am until it is accomplished. All right.
01:25:47: So Jesus had already been baptized by John. This is nearing his the end of his ministry.
01:25:53: And he says that he has a baptism to undergo and he is speaking about his death, burial and resurrection in the context of what
01:26:05: Peter is speaking about. We say in verse 18 for Christ suffer once for sins, the just for the unjust, meaning the righteous for the unrighteous.
01:26:16: Him being the righteous, the law keeper suffers for the unjust, the unrighteous, the lawbreakers.
01:26:22: You and I, that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.
01:26:31: Now, this right here, we could walk through Isaiah chapter fifty three close to the end where once he died, he was made alive in the spirit.
01:26:41: Like, you know, like this is what that's correlating with right there. And so and at this time.
01:26:48: Now, there's so many different interpretations that people take. I just want to take it simple. And, you know, you know, he went and proclaimed victory over death is how
01:26:58: I would say it. He wasn't there preaching the gospel, trying to get the the the unsaved rebellions to rebellious people to come to him.
01:27:08: He was proclaiming victory. And then ultimately, we see that in verse twenty one, his resurrection.
01:27:18: But but let's read that real quick. So verse 19, by whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly were disobedient.
01:27:28: When once the divine long suffering waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water.
01:27:39: I mean, there is also an anti type which now saves baptism, not the removal of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
01:27:53: So verse 18. Speaks about his death and burial.
01:27:59: First, twenty one speaks about his resurrection. So the anti type, I would say, is
01:28:06: Christ. Right. We are whenever we have received regeneration faith to believe we have the
01:28:16: Holy Spirit, like I said earlier. And I can go back to Ephesians two. We are in Christ.
01:28:23: And it's kind of like this already and not yet. Right. I am right now sitting in Tallahoma, Tennessee.
01:28:30: It's what time is it? It's ten twenty eight at night. But I'm also with Christ in heaven, sitting with him in the heavenlies, like I'm in Christ because of his baptism, his death, burial and resurrection.
01:28:48: And so the baptism that now saves us is what is right here. It's describing that baptism as verse 18, his death, burial, verse twenty one, his resurrection.
01:28:58: So us being in Christ, like Noah and his family were in the ark and they were rescued from the waters.
01:29:07: You and I, because of his baptism, death, burial and resurrection, we are in him rescued from the wrath of God.
01:29:16: Yeah, I think that's I think that's all fine. I don't disagree with much of that.
01:29:26: I guess my final word on this would be that at the end of starting with the end of verse twenty, you just have eight souls were saved through water.
01:29:36: There is also an antitype which now saves us baptism. So he specifically brings up that they were saved through this water.
01:29:47: And now the reality. But the water was the wrath. The water was the wrath.
01:29:53: Yeah. And it washed away all the wicked from the earth. Yeah. And earlier you said the type was the ark.
01:30:02: And I agree. The type was the ark. Yeah. Yeah. And the antitype is
01:30:08: Jesus as our ark being baptized, death, burial, resurrection.
01:30:14: So that's what Romans six talks about. When you and I are baptized like Christian baptism, we're baptized into his death, burial and resurrection.
01:30:22: And so Jesus is. So just right here, this baptism,
01:30:29: I don't believe it's Christian baptism. I believe it's speaking of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
01:30:35: And I believe the context tells us that as well. Yeah. And I think I think that's great. You mentioned
01:30:41: Romans six. Can I just read Romans? Yeah, absolutely. I love Romans. Starting in verse one.
01:30:48: Give me a second to get there, please. Oh, come on. You should be Romans. I'm not telling you to get to Abacus.
01:30:54: This is a new Bible. I got to be gentle with the pages.
01:30:59: OK, go ahead. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not.
01:31:05: How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
01:31:14: Therefore, we were buried with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the
01:31:21: Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of his death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of his resurrection.
01:31:32: Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin.
01:31:40: For he who has died has been freed from sin. I mean,
01:31:47: I could just read the whole rest of Romans. All these wonderful benefits,
01:31:54: Paul ties directly to our baptism. I think that's kind of the problem is that what you're saying,
01:32:06: I'm there, I'm absorbing it. This is what it's talking about salvation in Christ, I'm there.
01:32:13: But then what does Paul say? We get all those things that you just talked about in the 1
01:32:18: Peter 3 passage. All those things we find in baptism. Yes, because remember earlier
01:32:26: I said baptism is not a symbol, it's a sign that has information.
01:32:33: Right, it's a true sign that points to true realities. And it does have the remission of sins.
01:32:41: I 100 % agree with that. You heard me say that in the very beginning.
01:32:46: My argument with that would be that nowhere in Scripture is forgiveness of sin equated to salvation, salvific.
01:33:00: Whenever the Jews would offer sacrifice, they had the forgiveness of sins. John's baptism was for the forgiveness of sins.
01:33:06: John's disciples did not have salvation. Jesus forgives a man of his sins and it wasn't salvific.
01:33:13: Because there's not two ways or three ways or four ways of salvation. It's by grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ.
01:33:22: And so there's not multiple ways of salvation. From Adam and Eve to however long the
01:33:30: Lord carried, salvation is always going to be in Jesus Christ who died upon that cross.
01:33:36: Who lived the life we could not live and took upon himself the punishment that we deserve. By faith in him.
01:33:41: Yeah. And I said that faith is that new heart that's given to us in regeneration.
01:33:51: I'm with you. And then we take the sign. I'm identifying with Christ.
01:33:57: I'm putting him on like a jacket. I'm putting him on in my baptism. Yeah. I am taking the sign.
01:34:04: I identify with his death. When he died, I died. When he was buried, I was buried. When he rose,
01:34:10: I rose. Right. As many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death.
01:34:17: Yeah. I agree with all that lingo. Yeah. It's just not regeneration.
01:34:25: That's my argument. That's my only argument. It's not regeneration. Baptism doesn't always have to be wit.
01:34:33: Well, and I think that's why I want to start in John 3 is because you have these times where the word regeneration, there's at least two different words in Greek.
01:34:50: But they're essentially the word born and word again combined in some way.
01:34:57: And literal would be born from above. Made alive. Well, I mean, the
01:35:04: Greek is literally just born again. So when someone says they are a born again Christian, they should mean and I hope they mean they are a regenerate
01:35:12: Christian. That would be more historical term for it,
01:35:18: I guess. But the words are synonyms. They mean the same thing. Right. But you have these times where Jesus is talking about being regenerated, being born again.
01:35:31: And he says, you must be born of water and the spirit.
01:35:38: If what you're saying is regeneration and faith, it should just be you must be born of the spirit.
01:35:46: He didn't have to bring up water. No, no. Yeah, it does. Because water represents regeneration in Ezekiel.
01:35:53: And I would also say that that's speaking of Colossians where it talks about the circumcision of Christ. That's regeneration.
01:36:01: That's the circumcision without hands. Yeah. And what does he connect that to? Baptism. Right.
01:36:08: So I'm agreeing with what you're saying. The sign. Yeah. But it's a sign of a real thing.
01:36:14: Absolutely. And I agree with that. It's a real thing. When you see the Walmart sign, you also know, oh, there's a
01:36:20: Walmart there. You're not just saying, well, yeah, sometimes when I'm driving down the road, I see the Walmart sign.
01:36:26: There's a Walmart there. But sometimes there's just there's just a sign. No, every time you see the
01:36:31: Walmart sign, there's a Walmart there. Hopefully. No, that's. It could be
01:36:38: Walmart coming soon. Right. Walmart coming soon. That's why you should baptize them as an infant.
01:36:46: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's so. So to kind of bring this to.
01:36:54: I don't want to take up too much more of your time. I can do this all night, brother. Yeah. Just kind of take this as a whole, which correct me if I'm wrong.
01:37:03: And I know you will. So I believe. All the way through scripture, there is one way of salvation.
01:37:10: The same way Abraham was saved is the same way that I am saved today. And it's by believing
01:37:16: God. Believe God. And I am counted as righteousness. Right.
01:37:22: Now, if we say it's baptism that saves us as in Christian baptism,
01:37:29: Abraham was not baptized. And so I have a problem with that. Yeah.
01:37:34: You see what I'm saying? And I would also have a problem with saying if a Luther says that someone can be again, we're brothers from another mother.
01:37:43: That that someone can actually be saved by faith, grace through faith, but also by baptism.
01:37:52: So it seems that that's why I brought up that that first Timothy. It seems to be multiple ways of salvation versus I'm saying there's only one way.
01:38:00: So it's by grace alone, through faith alone and Jesus Christ. Yeah. So when we talk about grace,
01:38:06: God's grace, there are there are means of that grace. Yes. So even reformed confessions will say it will talk about the means of grace.
01:38:16: How to the means of grace. Probably a little bit. Maybe it's similar. But now, historically, when you're talking about the means of grace, you're literally saying these are the means by which
01:38:26: God gives us this grace. His grace being faith, which is according to Ephesians to the gift of God.
01:38:38: Now, would y 'all have the preached word as a means of grace? Yes. Yeah. Well, yeah, faith comes by hearing.
01:38:45: Yeah. Right. And so you hear the word, you receive baptism.
01:38:52: You don't go up and grab it. You know what I mean? It's not your work. You're not doing the work of baptism to get to God.
01:39:00: Baptism is a gift of God. But let's say that I was at a Lutheran church. I'm lost as a cucumber in a cornfield.
01:39:08: Right. And I hear the gospel. God grants to me faith to believe.
01:39:14: Right. Am I a Christian or do I have to be baptized?
01:39:22: You don't believe that Christians have to be baptized or what? No, no, no, no, no. I'm talking about am
01:39:27: I? Do I have to? Am I a Christian or do I? I gave you that scenario in Acts.
01:39:32: You know, I believe that Christians need to be baptized. Well, the way you asked it, I was just kind of. Well, well, let me rephrase that.
01:39:39: I hear the gospel. God gives me faith to believe. All right.
01:39:44: Am I a Christian right there with the Holy Spirit regeneration or do
01:39:50: I need to be baptized? You are a Christian and you do need to be baptized.
01:39:56: Yes. Do I have the Holy Spirit? Yeah. I mean, I don't
01:40:01: I don't know in that moment. I mean, it's possible. Yes. Max, that it is possible.
01:40:08: Faith comes by hearing Galatians chapter two. I mean, Romans chapter 10, verse 17.
01:40:14: Faith comes by hearing. Hear another word of God. And excuse me,
01:40:21: Galatians chapter three, verse one. Oh, foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you?
01:40:28: That you should not obey the truth before whose eyes
01:40:34: Jesus Christ was publicly betrayed among you as crucified. This only I want to learn from you.
01:40:40: Did you receive the spirit by works of the law or by hearing in faith?
01:40:46: Are you saying that baptism falls in that works of the law category or?
01:40:53: No, no, no, no, no. Because I would say that now baptism. So so so the word works is
01:40:58: Aragon, the Greek word. And it means anything that you do, Aragon hostess.
01:41:05: So baptism follows under Aragon. But what I'm saying is right here, it clearly which
01:41:11: I'm not arguing is baptism of work. Like I would if you were a church of Christ. Like that's where we'd be.
01:41:16: That's where we would be at. I'm just showing right here is that the Holy Spirit is given not by works of the law, but by faith.
01:41:26: And the works of the law in this context is speaking of circumcision, doing being under the the physical
01:41:34: Abrahamics covenant. Yeah. So the reason that I brought up the sinner's prayer joke was that everyone believes in a means of grace.
01:41:46: Some people believe that the means of grace is the sinner's prayer. Right. They may not say that, but that's what they effectively believe.
01:41:54: I walked down the aisle and shake a hand. Yeah. And they sang the first, second and fourth stanzas of just as I am.
01:42:00: And that was that was how I got saved. So everybody believes in some means of grace.
01:42:08: God's grace doesn't just there's some way in which
01:42:14: God gives us that grace effectively. Now, let's say through the preach word. Sure.
01:42:20: We would say through the word as instituted by Christ, which is baptism and the
01:42:26: Lord's Supper. Yeah. Yeah. So so I want you to finish your thought, but I just want to get your opinion.
01:42:31: So I would say so the primary means of grace that we hold to at our church is the preach word.
01:42:40: And those who have been given faith receive baptism. So baptism is a means of grace.
01:42:46: And those who have been baptized partake in the Lord's Supper. And we have the Lord's Supper every week.
01:42:52: That's good. And so we believe that through those who have been baptized, they sit under the word of God.
01:42:59: They partake in the Lord's Supper. God is growing them into the image of Christ.
01:43:05: They are being conformed. They're being sanctified to the image of Christ. And I believe that's how that's done.
01:43:16: I hold to a means of grace. So let me let me. I think this is a good means of grace passage.
01:43:21: Titus Titus three five. It's one of the ones that we're going to talk about. We can make this the last the last one, if you want.
01:43:32: Actually, I'm going to start in verse three. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
01:43:47: But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the
01:43:58: Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that having been justified by his grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
01:44:11: So it's that. Yeah. So in verse five, when it says he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the
01:44:28: Holy Spirit, Lutheran see that as baptism. I mean, that's in our confessional statements that Titus three five is about baptism.
01:44:38: Right. So there's no I'm not just making that up like that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I wouldn't think that. But the it's that through which he saved us.
01:44:50: So when I talk about baptism, I'm not talking about something separate from God's grace, separate from faith.
01:45:01: You know, faith is the hand that holds our baptism. And we believe that we are granted faith if we did not have it granted to us already at baptism.
01:45:14: That is the normative way. So when we say that a baby is saved through baptism, we're saying that they are granted faith being the gift of God because we are monergistic.
01:45:28: God grants that child faith. They have faith to hold on to their baptism. This is baptism is that means through which
01:45:38: Christ has saved us. And I'm not just like I'm not making that up.
01:45:47: That's the language that we see. I mean, this is like the fifth or sixth text where I've gone to and shown water, spirit and regeneration being all in one package deal.
01:46:02: Even the Ezekiel one that you know, which that's what I think this is referencing.
01:46:08: Yeah. And I would say it's referencing that, too. But there's how many passages and I encourage the people listening either now or later.
01:46:19: Yeah. So. So normally I go live on Facebook and that's where I get most of my listeners because I did the thing today.
01:46:27: It wouldn't let me go on Facebook. I can only go on YouTube. So anyone watching this, just try to count the amount of times that we've gone to a passage.
01:46:36: It's not even a passage I brought. I didn't even know we were going to go to that Ezekiel passage. Water, regeneration and the
01:46:45: Holy Spirit. All in one. How many times do we see that? So I know you keep saying, oh, he keeps going back to this
01:46:52: Ezekiel passage. Yeah, because Ezekiel passage is talking about. Well, I brought up this.
01:46:57: Yeah. I brought up the Ezekiel passage. Right. Because he's sprinkling with clean water. Yeah. Which is regeneration.
01:47:04: And I agree with that. It's regeneration. Yeah. But it's not baptism. But it's always connected with baptism.
01:47:10: That's what I'm saying. How many times do we have to see in the text? Regeneration is always connected to water.
01:47:17: But baptism isn't always water. And I just show that like even that first Peter passage, it says not the removal of flesh, which indicates that it's not speaking about being dumped in water.
01:47:27: The people in the ark were never dumped in water, but were saved through the ark.
01:47:32: Well, but the reason that it is an anti, that it's a type antitype relationship is because they're both talking about water.
01:47:41: Peter is explicitly talking about baptism in that passage. Well, it doesn't necessarily say water because it just says baptism.
01:47:49: And Jesus is baptism. And in the context, it's speaking of the death, burial and resurrection. And in Luke, it shows that Jesus's baptism is his death, burial and resurrection.
01:47:59: And that has nothing to do with water for himself. We're saved by what Christ has done for us.
01:48:07: And so the regeneration, I would say, I would say that it's pointing to the same thing. So first we see the mercy.
01:48:13: Go ahead. Sorry. I wanted to correct on first Peter three because verse 20 does say water.
01:48:20: Eight souls were saved through water. The immediate next thing he says is there is also an antitype, which now saves us baptism.
01:48:28: Right. So water is connected to baptism. The type antitype relationship is water, baptism.
01:48:35: They were saved through water. You're saved through water. Okay. So, so, so you change the antitype.
01:48:41: I mean, the type. So earlier you said the type was the ark. And they weren't saved through the water.
01:48:51: The water was coming to destroy them. Being saved through water is the type.
01:48:58: That's how Peter says it. Eight souls were saved through water. There is also an antitype, which now saves us baptism.
01:49:06: We know baptism. The word normatively that baptism, baptizo and baptizmos and all, all these word families of baptism.
01:49:15: Yep. Is normatively talking about something being dunked in some water.
01:49:22: Or washed. Or washed in pans. It has something to do with a lot of water being touched on whatever the thing is being baptized.
01:49:31: Yeah. But what about fire? The baptism of fire. That has nothing to do with water. Sure. But this one does explicitly say water.
01:49:39: Well, I'm just pointing out that not all baptism means is wet. But the baptism in 1
01:49:46: Peter 3 is water. Well, it says not the removal of dirt.
01:49:55: Which indicates that it's not you getting in water. Right. It's saying, it's not the removal of filth from the flesh.
01:50:03: Yeah. Meaning it's not water baptism. Like if you were to have some dust, some dirt on you and you got into the water.
01:50:12: He's saying it's not washing dirt off the flesh. It's washing sin off of the conscience.
01:50:20: You have a clean conscience now. The baptism of the Holy Spirit. I agree. See, and I agree with that. See, that's the thing you keep doing is you're saying it's not water baptism.
01:50:29: It's actually talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. And I would agree because there's one baptism.
01:50:35: The baptism of water is also the baptism of the Holy Spirit. But I just showed you that there's several different baptisms.
01:50:41: Now, the Christian baptism, I agree, is us being baptized into the triune name of God.
01:50:47: I agree with that. That's what I'm saying. Anyone listening to this, check how many passages that we've looked at.
01:50:54: I'm going to love listening to this myself. How many times do we go to passages where it's talking about water in some way or some water imagery?
01:51:04: It's talking about the Holy Spirit. It's talking about regeneration. Well, let me ask you this. So in Ezekiel, it says that he,
01:51:10: God, will sprinkle with clean water. Yes. Not you or I sprinkling or dunking someone with clean water, which is why it's speaking of regeneration.
01:51:21: It has nothing to do with me or you putting water on somebody. Regeneration has to do with God sprinkling us with clean water, and that is through the
01:51:31: Word, which is this is what has been spoke about here in Titus 3, the washing of regeneration through the
01:51:36: Word. And then it mentions faith, and faith comes by hearing the Word. That's where the
01:51:42: Holy Spirit comes upon you is that faith. Yeah, we're ministers of God's grace.
01:51:49: We are the means by which God ministers to other men.
01:51:56: Right. I mean, you're a minister yourself. And so God does not speak from heaven.
01:52:02: God speaks through you, through the Word, to the people that you're preaching to.
01:52:09: Yeah. The ordained means by which man must be saved is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
01:52:16: I preach the gospel. God takes that gospel and he either hardens hearts or he, like Lydia, he opens hearts.
01:52:27: The same sun that hardens dirt melts ice. The same gospel that will harden someone's heart to make me the stench of death is the same gospel that can open someone's heart and cause my words and my being to be the fragrance of life.
01:52:45: Yeah. And through that preached message comes regeneration. God grants to them. He removes their heart of stone, gives them the heart of flesh.
01:52:52: The heart of stone is self -righteousness. They're turning from that. They're given faith. They turn to Jesus Christ. They have the
01:52:57: Holy Spirit. Galatians chapter 3, verses 1, 2, and 3. And then we take the sign, baptism.
01:53:07: The sign of the covenant. Yeah, I mean, I'm still...
01:53:12: Come on back to the baptism. No. I mean, the way that when I just read, just clear reading the text of, like I was saying with Titus 3, when the kindness and the love of God our
01:53:26: Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the
01:53:36: Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by his grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
01:53:47: So what... Now... Go ahead. This is why I didn't want this passage to be the first thing
01:53:53: I went to. Because if I went straight to Titus 3, 5, then you could say, well, you're just assuming that the washing of regeneration is baptism.
01:54:04: But we've gone through all these other texts, both Old and New Testament. Ezekiel, Isaiah. We've gone through 1
01:54:12: Peter, went through John 3, Romans 6.
01:54:18: We have all these places where water is giving someone the
01:54:26: Holy Spirit and regenerating them through some means of water, washing, something like that.
01:54:36: And I mean, that connection, that's a clear, all the way through these
01:54:44: Old Testament prophecies into the didactic text, that is the connection.
01:54:51: And so when we're saved through the washing of regeneration, you would say, well, that's the baptism of the
01:54:59: Holy Spirit. And I would agree. And then I would point to all these texts we've shown that says that the baptism of the
01:55:05: Holy Spirit and water baptism is the same baptism. That would be, if you want, that could be my closing thing to say.
01:55:17: If you want to keep going, I can keep going a little bit. But I mean, I think that's really what it comes down to.
01:55:24: That was what really made me hold to baptismal regeneration, was just seeing these texts, seeing how often water, spirit, and being born again are just consistently connected through didactic texts, through Gospels, through Old Testament prophecies.
01:55:46: It's all there. And so what's going to set me apart from discussions you have with Presbyterians is that you're going to talk about, well, the covenant, this, that, or the other thing.
01:56:04: Continuity, discontinuity. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, for Lutherans, when, and this is getting into the issue of the other sacrament, is when
01:56:14: Christ says, this is the new covenant in my blood, we believe that, that the new covenant is in Christ's blood.
01:56:24: And so that was one of the reasons I could never be a Presbyterian, is that when
01:56:29: I look at, well, when did we have
01:56:36: Christ's blood given to us? Well, when
01:56:42: Christ actually shed his blood on the cross. So I would say, well, now you have the new covenant instituted.
01:56:48: You had all these promises. Now you have it instituted. Yeah. Hebrews spells that out so well.
01:56:54: Yeah, exactly. And I mean, so I'm not going to argue over, well, who belongs to the covenant?
01:57:03: Because it would be those who have received the washing of regeneration. As Roman said, we went over that we are baptized into Christ's death.
01:57:14: So we don't need this outer covenant that you're part of. And, you know, you can be brought up in the teaching of the church and that's the blessing of baptism.
01:57:25: As if Baptist children don't grow up in church and hear the word or something like that. Right. But when we say we are baptized into Christ's death through baptism, we mean that.
01:57:36: And we mean it when we baptize our children as well. That this is them being born again.
01:57:44: And so that in a nutshell is baptismal regeneration. It's why I don't need, you know, fancy covenant arguments to make that case.
01:57:55: I can just point to, as Luther says, who are the proper recipients of baptism?
01:58:01: Sinners. People who have sins that need to be remitted. Those are the proper recipients of baptism.
01:58:07: We know from Romans 5 that all children have baptism from the youngest age.
01:58:12: And so it is appropriate to. Romans 5 doesn't say that. What?
01:58:19: That children have baptism from the youngest age. No, it says they have sin from the youngest age.
01:58:26: Okay. And so that for Lutherans would make them proper recipients of baptism is that they have sin.
01:58:33: Sinners. Without faith to believe and without turning, repentance and faith. Right.
01:58:39: Well, they have plenty of faith. God gives plenty of faith in baptism. There's no way that that can be proved.
01:58:46: What would be. See. Okay. So then it comes down to children can't have faith.
01:58:51: All right. So, so Romans 10 chapter. Romans 10, 9 and 8.
01:58:57: Right. Right. Like, like that's the didactic portion. I mean, I want to give like a small little reiteration of closing of what
01:59:06: I said, but. Sure. But just to comment on that. It says.
01:59:12: Now, tell me if the infant can do this, that if you confess with your mouth that the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved for with the heart one believes until righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and is made unto salvation.
01:59:32: An infant can't do that. And that's what I was talking about earlier. If my seven year old came in here and said this right here, confess
01:59:41: Jesus, believed upon Jesus, believe that God raised him from the dead. I believe he's saved and I'm going to take his profession and we're going to talk to my other elder and I'm going to have him to interview my son and then we're going to baptize him.
01:59:57: But, but, but, but you said something earlier about things that you said that you wanted the audience to listen.
02:00:02: And same here. I have showed clearly that baptism does not always mean water.
02:00:09: There's a baptism of water and it was for the remission of sins. And that was not salvific.
02:00:15: There's a baptism of the Holy Spirit. And there is a baptism of fire. I've shown,
02:00:21: I believe I have shown clearly that the order of Saludis when it comes to regeneration, it goes with water.
02:00:29: And from there, there's a heart of stone that's removed. You're given a heart of flesh. And then after that heart of flesh, you're given faith.
02:00:38: Faith comes by hearing and hearing of the word of God. We receive the Holy Spirit through faith.
02:00:46: All right. Children cannot do that. And that's why I am,
02:00:51: I am a Baptist again. I mean,
02:00:56: I, I, I spelled this out clearly. I ho to baptism. I probably have the strongest view of baptism that a
02:01:05: Baptist can have because I believe it is for the remission of sins. It's not salvific.
02:01:11: And I believe that we actually put Christ on as the scripture says. But I've also in this in our time together have shown that you cannot just take text at surface level.
02:01:22: If you do so, then women are saved by childbearing. I mean, so baptism is not always wet.
02:01:30: It sometimes is fire. It sometimes is wet. But the baptism that saves is when we are saved by grace through faith.
02:01:43: And through that faith, we are we are given the Holy Spirit. And so that's my argument.
02:01:51: I believe you are a brother in Christ. I pray that you receive me one as one as well. Yeah. Yeah, I guess.
02:01:57: And if you if you if you ever want to get back on here and continue the conversation, I'm always up for it. Yeah. I just say
02:02:03: I close out with one thing. Yes. That. You know, we're talking about like if children can have faith and like, how would they confess that?
02:02:14: Yeah. And all that. Well, not children. So let's say infants. Infants cannot. Right. But I believe that my seven year old, who is intelligent, have a conversation with me that he could do that.
02:02:30: So, you know, if you are mute, if you're an adult who is mute. Remember, I said
02:02:36: I gave exceptions for that earlier. Because you're about your young your youngest child. I would
02:02:42: I would have definitely baptized. Yeah. But I would point to my, you know, my autistic three year old.
02:02:49: Right. We come from church one Sunday and she just starts saying, Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ.
02:02:57: Right. Well, what does that mean? It means Jesus is the Messiah. Yeah. That's what saying
02:03:03: Jesus Christ means. That is a profession of faith. Absolutely. And don't deny that.
02:03:09: We know that. First Corinthians 12. Three says no one can say that Jesus is
02:03:17: Lord except by the Holy Spirit. Right. Right. So.
02:03:24: I don't think that it takes a verbal confession that, you know, like the elders examine or something like that to know that a child has faith.
02:03:37: We are fallen. You know, we are fallen, weak creatures.
02:03:44: And God has been generous enough to give us this means by which we can know who has been regenerated.
02:03:52: And that's baptism. That he gives us a physical sign to accompany the reality of that regeneration.
02:04:00: Yeah. And so that's why we have these physical signs so that we can sit there and know. You know, one of the first things that a woman at the church had said,
02:04:10: I was talking about how difficult my daughter is at church. And she had said, well, she has the
02:04:16: Holy Spirit. And I believe that because I believe that I believe the promises that you see.
02:04:23: You know, obviously, it's my interpretation of them, but that you see in Acts 2 where he says, repent, be baptized and you will receive the
02:04:33: Holy Spirit. I believe that promise. I believe that when my children have been baptized, that they have received the
02:04:39: Holy Spirit. And even my seven month old who can't speak yet.
02:04:45: I know that he has received the Holy Spirit because I believe the promises that God has given us. So that's my spiel.
02:04:52: That's my soapbox for baptism. So at the beginning, I said I took an exception to that situation, right?
02:04:59: If someone, you know, if they had no function. If you didn't hear me then, when you go back and hear it, you'll hear it then.
02:05:07: No, I heard. I use that as an example of, I didn't mean for that to be like a gotcha type thing.
02:05:14: But I use that as an example of having faith does not mean being able to verbally speak necessarily.
02:05:23: But it is the norm. Norm, yes. Normatively, yes. But not so in the
02:05:29: Lutheran or in the Presbyterian or in the Catholic tradition. Any tradition that baptizes babies, that's not the norm.
02:05:39: Because I believe that that has to come first. And I know that Calvin would have put me on a cross and hung me, right?
02:05:50: But I take the church fathers for who they are, right? The best of men are men at best.
02:05:56: And yeah, I mean, I read all their works, but they're not Christ and they're not the scriptures.
02:06:01: They're just like you and I filled with the Holy Spirit doing their best to interpret the Bible. And I'm so grateful for his word.
02:06:08: But, you know, he made some good points and I'm definitely going to think on them. I pray that I made some good points for you.
02:06:15: I mean, baptism isn't always wet. And that's, you know, we can't take everything at surface level.
02:06:21: We need to dig into the text. And what we did here tonight, pushing and pulling. I tell a lot of people because I grew up in martial arts, boxing and stuff like that.
02:06:30: I can get in a ring and shadow box, you know what I'm saying? I can punch on a bag and I can kick and stuff like that.
02:06:38: And I can think I'm good. But when someone gets in that ring with me who is able to punch and kick, then
02:06:44: I find out if I'm really good. So I can sit here and read all these theology books and think
02:06:51: I got it down. But then when someone gets in front of me in the push and pull, and listen, I've come to enjoy this.
02:06:58: So to me, me and you, we're in a boxing ring right now. You're hitting me in the eye. I'm trying to hit you in the eye and I'm going to grow.
02:07:06: And so I'm grateful that you've come on here and challenged me. I pray that I challenged you and that we're both able to grow from this.
02:07:15: And I see the Lutherans as my brother because the simple fact that if someone receives
02:07:26: Christ by faith and they die before their baptism, you would say that they're saved, that they're in the kingdom.
02:07:32: And that's where I depart from the churches of Christ. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, hey, have me on again sometime.
02:07:38: We'll talk about Lord's Supper. Yeah, that'd be fun. That would be... Boy, that one gets...
02:07:44: I might flip tables over that one. It's served! All right, man.
02:07:53: Well, I'm going to close this out. Just hang on and we'll say bye. All right. All right, everybody.
02:07:58: So grateful that y 'all come and listen to us. I'm going to share this on Facebook. Again, if you're ever in Tallahoma and you want to hang out with the
02:08:09: Black Sheep of the Reformation, I pastor Covenant Reform Baptist Church and would love to hang out with you, smoke a cigar, you know, just kick it.
02:08:20: But other than that, I hope everyone has a good night and good day whenever y 'all hear this. Hallelujah. Hollaback!