Pro Life or Abolitionist? A Discussion with Pro Life Man & Free the States

Hey, welcome back everyone. There it is. Wait for it. Yeah, another episode of dead men walking podcast. We're the only will we're concerned about is the will of Christ and the only rock that we like is the Rock of Ages.

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Introducing Pro-Life Man and Free the States

So live with us today. We have two groups we have Andrew Griffith, who's the president of pro-life man. Thomas White. Who's the vice president of pro-life man? And we have T Russell Hunter who's the founder of free the States and James Silverson.

I want to make sure I say that the right way. Silberman who's the communication director and We wanted to have a discussion today. I've noticed that there has been tension or that there are sometimes differences within the pro-life community and when in within the Abolitionist community some of you might be going.

I'm not too familiar with either one of those or one of the other and That's part of what we want to do today is one define those. See what those differences and tensions are if any and then maybe make a biblical Point of why we do believe what we believe now, this isn't a debate.

I'm not a debate moderator. We are going to try to keep things moving. But we are gonna try to have some type of structure to it just so that way we are not All over the place and you're listening to five people talk at one time.

That just wouldn't make for a very good show. So Up first. I do want pro-life man to introduce themselves. Andrew Thomas tell us a little bit about yourselves what the pro-life man organization is all about.

Pro-Life Man’s Origin and Mission

Yeah, first of all, thanks so much Greg for hosting this debate. Thank you dead men walking. Thank you to James and Russell for being willing to be a part of this. I think this is going to be awesome no matter where people find themselves on the side of this debate and if they you know at the end of this they find Themselves more entrenched on their side or somewhere in the middle or switching sides or whatever.

I don't really care. I just think this is super informative for everyone that's watching this and participating in this. So thank you. I mean that sincerely. So my name is Andy Griffith and just to get that out of the way first.

Yes. That's really my name. Okay. You know just want to get distractions out of the way. No, my mom doesn't hate me. Okay, it wasn't you don't come from Mayberry. I don't I don't I'm gonna leave that and not comment.

But so I founded pro-life man in 2018 early on in 2018 I felt really convicted that I wasn't doing enough for preborn children and You know, I've always been told by different people whether it's a pro-life movement or just personal people in my life that you know.

Oh write your senator, you know, and we're in Michigan with two very very pro-abortion senators. And so writing my senators isn't doing any good, you know. They probably won't even read my letter and so I wanted to do more than just write my senator and So I started looking online for things to get involved in and you know, the pro-life movement is largely Feminine and geared towards women and I just wasn't connecting with a lot of stuff that I was finding and so I wanted to find a men's pro-life group and You know, I couldn't find anything.

I did have awareness of Knights of Columbus and That you know, they do some pro-life work and provide ultrasounds for pregnancy centers and stuff like that. But I'm personally not Catholic and therefore I didn't think Knights of Columbus was a good fit for me.

And so I'm literally googling pro-life men's groups for hours and not finding anything and so then I thought okay. Well, I know what's happened here. Google is suppressing these search results. And so I need to start just typing domain name straight into the domain field and see if I can find something and So my first website that I typed in was pro-life man calm and pro-life man org thinking that something would be there it just made sense to me that something would already be there in existence and there was nothing and So I kept searching other domain names and found nothing.

It was a complete dead end. I end up circling back to pro-life man calm and you know, I was like, oh, maybe my internet wasn't working the first time. There's got to be something there and there wasn't anything there and I'm just completely shocked.

And I see this little ad in the lower right hand corner of the site that says, you know Buy this domain for 17 bucks for the year and I was like, okay. I'm gonna buy this domain and I didn't know what I was gonna do with it while I was buying it I remember coming home telling my wife.

Hey bought a website today, you know, and she's like, what'd you do that for? I don't know. She's like, okay. What are you gonna do with it? No clue. I just felt led to buy it and So as I was mulling over over the next few weeks of what what am I gonna do with this website?

What can I do with it? You know I was reflecting on my own personal story about how I don't pretty much my entire life been pro-life even before I became a Christian. Even when I was an atheist I was pro-life.

But I was convinced by the common pro abortion talking points of You know, no uterus no opinion. You're it's a woman's choice. It's her body her choice. And so I was personally pro-life but not outwardly pro-life right and I I wouldn't kill a baby I wouldn't want that but I don't want to force my manly opinion on a woman, you know I don't want to oppress any women and I just recently came out of that and decided that I'm gonna be no longer silent.

And so that's what I realized I could do is I could at least start an online Presence trying to encourage other men to also be no longer silent. That's why I see the sign here behind us that's our tagline no longer silent and So, yeah, so started that in 2018 by the end of 2018 I realized I needed to get legal with the feds and the state registered with all those and January 2019 formed a board and had our first ever board meeting a few months later.

We got 501c3 non-profit status from the federal government. And so pro-life man is two missions number one to encourage men to be a voice for pre-born sons and daughters. And number two provide help and healing for men grieving abortion.

We purposely use that language of pre-born sons and daughters. Because we feel that it rehumanizes children in the womb and you know, they're not just a clump of cells. They're not just above a tissue.

They're a son or a daughter and that's a biological fact from the moment of conception. I also feel like that language kind of Subconsciously if nothing else puts in the back of your mind that there's also a man involved.

It's not just a woman that's involved with this pre-born son or daughter. There was also a man involved that created that so reinserting men into the picture and into the debate. Yeah, that's my pitch.

Awesome. Thank you so much Russell James. You guys want to give us a little intro of free the states and what you guys are all about.

Free the States and Abolitionism

Yeah, actually, it's a listening to brother Andrews testimony. It's incredibly similar to my own. Maybe I'm a little older but so back in and it was like 2010 a similar thing happened to me where I basically Just things that the Lord was doing in my life I started reflecting on kind of like whether or not I was loving my neighbors as myself or really practicing the golden rule rule in my community and Happened to be at the same time in a doctoral program and reading a bunch of stuff on the abolitionists of slavery and through a Bunch of detail that I've said elsewhere.

I felt really kind of rebuked by God because I was kind of a very ivory tower Christian both at church and at the school and Wasn't really living for other people. I wasn't really laying down my life for my neighbors and I really wasn't really standing up Considerably or boldly for the gospel in our culture.

And and one of the things, you know I was studying the abolition of slavery and I just kind of started thinking what is the kind of mass evil of our time? That's sort of going on under protection of law.

Everyone's just sort of being silent about it sort of tolerating it. What is that evil and am I complicit and it was just very Abortion, you know, I was I was pro-life. I was in a pro-life Church. There was a sanctity of life Sunday I was even giving like $100 a month to a crisis pregnancy center, but I kind of knew that I was not myself Really doing for them what I would want done for me and and like Andrew I I you know went to the Internet I was gonna look around for groups and Started, you know searching all the different groups all the different things that different people do, you know.

Whether it's showing images on campuses going to clinics Legislative political legal stuff and we took a very I don't know kind of at that time academic approach to all these websites. And and I was looking for one that was sort of like boldly outwardly Christian unashamedly sort of biblical in their arguments.

Apologetically I'd kind of become convinced of a presuppositional approach to apologetics and just sort of Declaring the Word of God as True and believing that men just suppress the truth and unrighteousness.

It's always looking for a lot of those things in pro-life groups and I Didn't seem to come across Anything that I thought was what I wanted to do. So in Norman, Oklahoma just at our at our church. Me and some other guys.

Pretty much my age and a little younger I was a grad student and there were some undergrad guys that I started with we decided well We'll kind of we'll figure this out as we go. We'll start an abolitionist society and we'll we'll try to make fighting abortion a regular part of our lives we'll try to approach the abortion issue as sort of a love-your-neighbor issue and Look at the Word of God and say, okay What does it look like to be a Christian in a culture that practices like?

Unmitigated legally protected child sacrifice. What should we do? What is the Word of God say and so we started meeting and trying to figure out that and You know started an abolitionist society, but that was 2010.

Did that did a lot of stuff, you know all that AHA stuff and just different mainly cultural focused kind of Evangelicalism and abortion on college campuses high schools clinics city streets for a good six or seven straight years and then after that kind of had bubbled up enough to where some legislators and people in politics began to say hey I'll file a bill that treats abortion as murder.

Will you guys support it? And that kind of brought a lot of the the abolitionist sentiments and stuff that I was doing into the legal political realm and that gave birth to sort of like Gubernatorial candidate Dan Fisher running for governor abolition bills being filed and then out of that free the states was founded free the states is.

It's a legislative lobbying organization. We really do. We we do exist kind of to try to help people understand. Which bills that are being put forward for them to support or not support treat abortion as murder.

Actually would be the kind of in our language the kind of the kind of laws That would establish justice the kind of bills that God would support that God would say write these kind of laws. Because the the Word of God is pretty clear like on what kind of laws he likes and what kind of laws He doesn't like and so free the states kind of came on the scene to say Well in a state like Oklahoma where you've got 15 to 20 pro-life bills.

And they're just all said hey These are pro-life support them are any of these bills bills that we shouldn't support and do people understand why? So free the states was founded to sort of be able to point this is abortion as murder.

It should be abolished. This is abortion as health care. It should be regulated support this bill. Not that bill. And that was back in 2019. And so we've gotten very legislative focused through that but our heart still is.

You know on Kind of waking up the church by the church I just mean the people of God believers and followers of Jesus Christ to see abortion as not a special calling issue for some people but to see abortion and its abolition as as As a work that the church needs to be doing because the church has the gospel and the gospel.

Being the answer to sin for individuals and for communities cultures countries. That needs to be at the forefront of our weaponry against the culture of death. So we we spend most of our time trying to get pastors and churches educated involved.

Doing everything from going to abortion mills to the state capitol to support bills to abolish abortion. So that's a rambly.

Introduction. No, that's good. Thank you so much. So a lot of people who might be listening up to this point go well these guys sound pretty darn similar. So could maybe we jump back over to you Andrew and Thomas and just go.

Okay I want it for the people to find abortion to find your stance on it and Defined what your view as it within the pro-life community and then maybe we can do the same with what? Abolition is what your stance on abortion is and what you defined it is within the abolition community.

Pro-Life Man’s View of Abortion

So just a quick introduction, I'm Thomas white. I'm vice president pro-life man. I'm also an EMT. We have five board members Pro-life man, they're all medical personnel to EMTs three nurses. So this is kind of the the background that we're coming from.

I'm gonna just read to you verbatim our pro-life man values. Pro-life man recognizes human life at conception and That abortion is the intentional killing of that human life at all stages within the womb.

Science verifies that human life begins in the womb. Science also verifies that abortion ends that human life. We believe abortion is not only wrong but evil regardless the circumstances including instances of rape incest deformity and to save the mother's life.

Specifically in cases of the life of the mother we agree with doctors including former abortionists. That intentionally killing a baby is never needed to save the life of the mother. Because there are other life-saving procedures to save the mother and give the baby the best chances of survival.

Pro-life man emphasizes that men are essential to protecting the life of the preborn. Abortion is not merely a women's rights issue. Abortion is the nation's greatest human rights violation. Abortion kills humans both male and female all created by a man the father and the woman the mother.

Men are often Excluded in the abortion debate and more importantly the decision regarding their preborn sons or daughters life. Pro-life man encourages men to speak out against abortion and defend human life in the womb.

So that's that's pro-life man, but but taking Taking the camera back to to the pro-life movement in general. I can't speak for all the pro-life movement. But I think we we speak for that the majority is that the end goal of the pro-life movement is the complete Cessation of abortion and there's multiple strategies to get there.

I don't think that there's a unified strategy but legally. There there are strategies legally. With like free the states, you know, they choose to ignore Roe. That's that's a legal Illegal strategy but pro-lifers.

We set up legislation that would challenge Roe. In order to get it overturned and then one of the other strategies that I don't think has been explored yet but a Convention of the States is creating a Personhood amendment that establishes the right to life for for all humans.

Abolitionism and the Case for Immediate Change

Awesome Guys at free the states. Can you kind of give us the same? Where you're coming from your stance on abortion and how you see it within the abolitionist movement? Yeah.

So as Russell said in the kind of introduction, you know, we we think abortion is murder. And that's the point where I think there's probably agreement between us and you guys, you know abortions murder and then the kind of the divergence is on.

Probably a couple of the things that is part of the divergence. Maybe not with you guys in particular. But most of the pro-life movement like we would be very gospel centered and we would be kind of open and kind of lead with That and I think a lot of pro-life groups kind of don't that's kind of another discussion I'm gonna focus mostly on kind of immediatism versus incrementalism and why we think we need to reject the incremental strategy.

And so as Russell said it's murder. It's not health care. And so when we write laws about abortion. We should write laws that are consistent with the truth. And there are a lot of reasons why we should do that both pragmatically and principally.

And so I'm gonna go through six quick reasons as quickly as I can here. Why we think we should write laws that immediately abolish abortion instead of kind of incrementally. Try to get closer and closer by regulating abortion more and more over time.

So reason number one. We believe the incrementally regulating abortion is not biblical and I could not do this justice in just just a minute or two here. And so there's a couple of videos on YouTube. I would recommend I would recommend episode 4 of the liberator.

The biblical arguments for abolitionism and then smashing Doug Wilson's and smash-mouth incrementalism presentation Russell gave but as quickly as I can. Essentially scripture says establish justice for the fatherless scripture says woe to those who decree iniquitous decrees.

And so if you look at a bill like let's take the dismemberment abortion ban. For instance, you've got a bill that says you may not dismember a pre-born child through D and E abortion. But you may dismember a child through D and C abortion, right?

So you can't perform abortion this way you can perform abortion in this way. And so I think when you look at that, I think you would have to say you'd have to admit yes, that is iniquitous to write in a law that you can murder a child tear them limb from limb in this way that that's Iniquitous and I think the incremental argument would be well, it saves some lives.

And so we're still doing some good but we would say that that's trying to say that the end justifies the means in this case the means being an unjust law and so we would say That's biblically speaking that we're not at liberty to do that.

Even if we think we're achieving some good end and so again, that's not doing the issue justice. But that's as quickly as I can why we don't think it's biblical to regulate abortion. Reason two it's unconstitutional.

So we look at the Constitution we see an unalienable right to life. We see an unalienable right to the equal protection of the law. And so when we put forward a 20-week ban or a heartbeat bill, we're putting forward a bill that is unconstitutional.

Now it's not unconstitutional for the reasons that the Supreme Court has said that the judges argue that it's unconstitutional. But it is unconstitutional. It's denying the rights to life and equal protection to pre-born children.

And so with these laws, we're giving up our ultimate foundation God's Word. We're not writing a just law and then we're giving up our secondary foundation the Constitution. And so we've laid down our two main weapons in the fight against abortion and we don't believe that's practical.

We don't believe it's it's it's it's principled. And so yeah, we can't we can't violate our foundations. Reason three. Incremental bills dehumanize pre-born children. And so I discovered this very early on when I became an abolitionist I met with my my state senator in Ohio and I told his aide, you know, here's what an abolition bill is.

Here's why we need one in Ohio and her response was you know. This is very interesting and you know, I like what you had to say. But it's Senator Brenner's personal religious conviction that life begins at a heartbeat right now.

Where does someone learn something like that? Right? They don't learn from God's Word. They don't learn it from science class. They learn that from championing the heartbeat bill. Andrew Brenner was a champion of the heartbeat bill for six years.

He was a pro-life hero right champions his heartbeat bill. He fights for on the floor. He fights for it out in the culture. He rallies churches to come support the heartbeat bill and eventually he internalizes The lessons taught by the heartbeat bill because the law is a tutor and so he's learning through promoting the heartbeat bill.

That life begins at the moment that a heartbeat can be detected. All right. Because the law is a tutor like Russell discovered this at an abortion bill here and here in Norman back in 2016 or 17. When a woman said it's okay.

It's okay. I'm pro-life, but my baby isn't gonna feel any pain. So it's okay, right? Well, where does she learn that from the pain-capable Unborn Child Protection Act? My other colleagues? It's Sam Riley.

He was at a college campus doing outreach and a young woman comes up to him. And she says, you know, what do you guys say about abortion in the case of rape? And he says that's never okay, right humans are created in the image of God.

That's true in the case of rape. We cannot murder children conceived in rape and she breaks down in tears weeping and she says Thank you for saying that when I talked to pro-lifers who make this exception or they they write laws.

You know allowing children to be murdered in the case of rape. It makes me feel like my life isn't as valuable because I was conceived in rape. Right and so with these bills with with rape exceptions with allowing for murder up to heartbeat murder up to 20 weeks.

We're dehumanizing those people not necessarily intentionally. I'm not saying that the authors of those bills are intentionally trying to do that. But that is the effect because the law is a tutor. So reason three why do opposing criminalism it dehumanizes pre-born children.

Reason number four it cements judicial supremacy. You know you touch on this earlier how we think ignoring row is the correct strategy and when we write laws that that Treat row as the law of the land.

That's only cementing The Supreme Court's kind of the the the fiction that they foisted on us that they are the law of the land. Right row is unconstitutional and even like like far-left legal scholars will admit that it's unconstitutional.

It had no basis in the text of the Constitution and so we shouldn't be cementing that with laws that bow down to them and so one of the things that I like to point out a lot is that Ignoring row is the right thing to do right from Exodus 1 from Daniel 3 from Acts 5.

We see examples of Defined tyrants being a biblical thing to do. But it's also more likely to make the court actually overturned if we want row to be overturned. The right way to do it is to put pressure on them to expose them as the paper tiger.

They are say no, this is not constitutional and here in Oklahoma here in Texas, Indiana, Idaho, Missouri, Kansas wherever we're not going to abide by it and when when we when we bow up in that way the court is going to Respond to that because people like John Roberts and Brett Kavanaugh.

This is all they do when they make court decisions right there. They're Weather veins that just show wherever the cultural winds are blowing. And so we need to blow in In the direction of abolition and That's what will get them to eventually that that that fear that political pressure is what is more likely to get them to overturn row.

And so that's reason number four. We that we shouldn't cement judicial supremacy. Number five pro-life laws kind of the main argument that's made in favor of them is that they save lives and If that is to whatever degree that's true Praise the Lord for any any humans who are alive today because of that but when you look at the stats abortions are going down across the board in New York and in Texas or in, Illinois and In in a lot of pro-life states now here in Oklahoma.

Actually, we passed nine pro-life bills last year. We've got pro-life bills every session an abortion rates had actually gone up went up 16 from 2016 to 19 Despite pro-life bills being passed every year.

So I don't think pro-life bills are very effective in doing that. But in any case even if pro-life bills are going down in certain states, they're also going down in in pro-abortion states. And so we don't see a significant Effect that these pro-life regulations are having and so yeah.

That'll be reason number five reason number six and this is the one that we stress a lot here legislatively. Incremental bills are a substitute for abolition. And so the Texas heartbeat bill. I know we're gonna get to that.

We're gonna get that way later on here in more detail. But when we look at that people are saying well, it's it's saving 50 lives a day or 100 lives a day 150 lives a day. However many lives what it's actually doing is it provides political cover for the people who kept abortion legal in Texas.

Now, let me explain that there was a bill to completely abolish abortion in Texas completely treat as murder and it would no longer be legal and if you do it you would you would be charged with murder in some degree and.

So you had that bill and you had some co-authors on that bill. But then you had the Republican establishment in Texas who said no, we're not going with that bill but we are gonna pass this heartbeat bill and this other pro-life bill about Basically how you can send abortion pills through the mail and so now they're pro-life heroes, right these Texas Republicans.

They're the best pro-life heroes. We've ever had, you know, since Roe v. Wade. But they're also the people who kept abortion legal. They spiked the bill that would have abolished abortion in Texas. And that is the strategy of the Republican establishment in Oklahoma and Texas in all these states.

They see an abolition bill come up. They say nope, we're not gonna go with this but to save our own careers. We need to pass pro-life bills so that we can campaign as pro-life heroes to get reelected.

And that's what we're seeing in state after state after state after state. So Jeff Leach the man who killed the bill to abolish abortion in Texas. He put forward The born-alive infant Protection Act in 2019.

So he kills the bill to abolish it. He puts forward a bill that does absolutely nothing it passes. Texas Alliance for life gives him the pro-life hero of the year award. So he's the pro-life hero of the year.

He's up on stage at Texas March for life all this stuff and he's literally the chairman of the committee. Where the abolition bill was and he did not allow it to be voted on and so we have the people who are keeping abortion Legal being rewarded because they're putting for these substitutes in the place of abolition.

And so that is reason number six why we would say incremental bills should not be supported. And so against a recap we agree with you guys and I think the majority of the pro-life movement abortion is murder.

But then there's the divergence on should we support incremental bills? And we would say no we should not we should keep focused keep the main thing the main thing treat abortion as murder. Don't treat it as health care.

Hold hold the hold a hold a hard standard and say Republican politicians if you want our vote you must abolish abortion. We're not gonna be satisfied with anything less than that. Yeah, that's okay. Thank you.

Yeah, that's a lot to take in.

Pro-Life Man Responds on Incrementalism and Practical Strategy

So I'm gonna throw this back over to you guys pro-life man, because there was a lot of points there James kind of skipped ahead on some of it. So we'll just go with it. So just for the listeners It sounds like our foundation is the same.

Life begins at conception abortion is murder. From there it's sounding like the tension is on how we accomplish that whether it's through legislative acts or Politically and I've seen I've seen from both sides.

I've seen you two at free the states post some stuff about pro-lifers and go. Hey. They're difficult to work with because all they want is incremental ism. And then I also have seen posts from the pro-life guys pro-life man guys that go Hey, you can't work with an abolitionist because it's all or nothing.

And what about all those lives that are kind of you know lost. So pro-life man, could you guys kind of maybe respond to that and say where you are on that charge of incremental ism? Or where you are on like bills in Texas to where I think in Texas I think it's still abortion up to six weeks essentially.

So so my question would also be there just tag that you maybe can both answer this after pro-life man Answers but do we support that but can you biblically support a bill that still Allows abortion up to a certain point and if so, why or why not?

Yeah, thanks for very clearly laying out your position. I appreciate that. There was a lot there and so forgive me while my brain wraps around a lot of these and tries to respond to these eloquently. You're a very good speaker James.

So first of all before getting it too much into the disagreement. I do want to say that We we will find ourselves agreeing on a lot. Especially when it comes to frustrations with the pro-life movement, you know being pro-life man and a newer and very tiny pro-life organization.

You know, we've experienced pro-life Elitism if that's what you want to call it where you know, you're not welcome to the club. You're not welcome to the party because you're not a part of this elite.

You know kind of closed club where everyone decides, you know. What to go after next what what to parade what to be silent about and stuff like that? And and that's very very frustrating to us. We call some of that out for instance we just recently went to the first ever pro-life men's conference down in Texas put on by care net and All the major pro-life organizations that at least weekly or at least once every couple weeks.

They they post about we need more men in the pro-life movement and yet. Here's this first ever pro-life men's conference and they were all silent about it. And it's just like I'm left here wondering why are you guys silent about this?

I thought you want more men in the pro-life movement or is that just a popular talking point that gets you clicks and Likes and whatever else, you know, or do you only want the men to join your pro-life?

Organization and not actually join the pro-life movement broadly, but just just for you you want to hoard them all or whatever. So it's it's it's really annoying. There are also we've experienced pro-life laws strange pro-life laws that effectively do nothing.

I was familiar with a Dismemberment ban bill that was going through a state and I unlike just Everyone else of just listening to the talking points and listening to the email and everything I actually read the bill and the bill said you can't dismember a live baby in the womb.

If it's dead, you can dismember it and I'm just like what are we doing? Then okay, the abortionist now has to insert poison or saline or whatever to kill the baby first and then dismemberment. Okay, I don't I don't see a baby saved in that situation.

It's changed maybe their procedure, but that's it, you know. And so it's just like what what are we doing? Why did we spend three years parading this and working on this and fundraising for this? When what has it actually done in my opinion nothing?

So we definitely got to find some some points of agreement there and I think that all people on either side of this debate need to actually read bills that are being put forth and not just Go along with whatever the leader is saying to go along with.

And then when when you actually read it and there's something stupid in there like challenge the pro-life leaders. Challenge the other people that are supporting this, you know put pressure on them. The other thing that I think we can agree upon that is a major concern for us is Christian and especially pastor apathy on this topic, you know, I think Christians have been you know, just desensitized to this and and As a result, they're dehumanizing the unborn by just like going on and living everyday life and not carrying that down the block.

You know, there's a hundred babies killed a day or dozens killed a day or whatever. Whatever the number is, you know I think we're just Christians are desensitized to this and we call them to To stand up and to be a voice and to be no longer silent.

So I just wanted to get where we agree on things first or where I think that we agree on things first. Now as far as your question Greg forgive me. I'm gonna reword your question. So and this this was kind of kind of come down to the fundamental disagreement between us.

So you said is it biblically and morally acceptable to support support bills that support abortions after conception? I Would respond is it biblically and morally acceptable to support bills that currently decrease the current abortion rate?

Yes, it is. Okay, and so what what I think we disagree is the reality of the current situation. So when you say, you know You're pro-lifers right iniquitous decrees because it says we're allowing abortion at this level.

Our response is no the the current abortion rate. I'm figuring out my camera here is you know here it's this giant Monsoon 900 ,000 plus and we all know California doesn't report abortion numbers. So I'm sure it's way higher than 900 ,000.