ISI Radio Archive: 2010 Interview with R.C. Sproul on “Tough Questions Christians Face”

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Long Island area, on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians have a platform to address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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And now, here's our host, Chris Arnzen. Good evening Long Island, New York, Connecticut, and those listening internationally over the internet.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 19th day of May, 2010.

I am so honored and privileged and thrilled tonight, because for the very first time,

I have as a guest on this program, Dr. R .C. Sproul, the founder and chairman of Ligonier Ministries.

And tonight, we are going to discuss a very provocative theme, tough questions

Christians face. And that is the theme of the Ligonier Ministries 2010 National Conference, and we're also going to be announcing the new college at Ligonier Academy of Biblical and Theological Studies.

And it is my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time, Dr. R .C. Sproul. Thank you,

Chris. It's good to be with you. And before we even get into the theme of the conference, and also the new college at Ligonier Academy of Biblical and Theological Studies, when exactly did you found

Ligonier Ministries? I understand it started in the Pittsburgh area of Pennsylvania. Well, it's about 50 miles east of Pittsburgh in the

Ligonier Valley. And we found it in 1971. 1971.

And I'd be shocked if anybody listening to my program wasn't familiar with Ligonier Ministries, but give a brief description for our listeners who are hearing about it for the first time.

Well, Ligonier Ministries began as a teaching mission that was particularly designed to train

Christian workers who had college educations but did not have the inclination or opportunity to go to seminary.

People like staff members of InterVarsity, Coalition for Christian Outreach, Young Life, and groups of that ilk.

And of course, we also had a lay ministry to churches, and pastors would bring their churches for weekend seminars.

And we had a resident student program that was very similar to what happened at LaBrie.

Francis Schaefer was a friend of mine, and he helped coordinate the founding of Ligonier Ministries by giving us a lot of sound wisdom and so on.

And the ministry expanded largely through audio and video and my books.

And after 13 years in western Pennsylvania, the board wanted to get out of the campus ministry and to focus on the

AV outreach ministry. And so, since most of our constituents lived in the southeastern part of the

United States, we relocated our headquarters in Orlando and we've been involved in conferencing and radio outreach, and audio and video educational materials, and the publication of Table Talk Magazine and the publishing arm of the ministry, which is

Reformation Trust, just to name a few of the things that we're doing. Well, Dr. Sproul, you are well known as being one of the most gifted spokespersons for the

Reformed faith or Calvinism. I do want you to know that the gentleman who was supposed to be my co -host tonight,

Daniel Buttafuoco, who is an attorney and also the founder of the Historical Bible Society, regretted that he could not be here because he had a trial that he had to be involved in.

But he wanted to thank you for your book, Grace Unknown, the Heart of Reformed Theology.

I gave that to Dan back in about 1997. Dan was an

Arminian Christian, still is an elder in an Assemblies of God congregation. I gave that to him for Christmas back in 1997,

I believe it was, and on New Year's Day, he called me up in the morning and said,

I have not been asleep since two days ago. I've been reading this book that you gave me by R .C.

Sproul, I Believe Every Word. I am now Reformed. It's amazing how

I meet folks who have been led to these glorious doctrines of Sovereign Grace through your ministry.

In fact, the second half of tonight's broadcast, we have Ken Jones. I'm sure you are familiar with Ken.

I know Ken very well, sure. Yes, and he is one of the panel members of the White Horse Inn.

I interviewed every co -author, including Ken, of the book

Laurie Wrote, The Journeys of Ten African Americans into Reformed Christianity. Every one of them on this program mentioned you as having a profound effect on their life.

Well, that's really wonderful to hear that. That's somewhat overwhelming.

I'm sorry that Dan couldn't be with us tonight, too. We could have had some sharpening from his iron.

Sure. Well, this is one of the, I'm not just saying this because you're my guest tonight, this is one of the most provocative themes for a conference and one of the best rosters

I've ever seen at a conference, especially because each of these subtitles of your conference, the tough questions

Christians face, each one could be a conference in and of itself. We have, Why did Jesus have to die?

John MacArthur. Is the doctrine of inerrancy defensible? Michael Horton. Does the doctrine of divine decrees eliminate the reality of the human will?

Another one by John MacArthur. What is evil and where did it come from? Dr. R .C.

Sproul. Why do Christians still sin? R .C. Sproul, Jr. How do we know which interpretation is right?

Derek Thomas. Is the Bible just another book? Stephen Lawson. Is the exclusivity of Christ unjust?

Alistair Begg. Why does the universe look so old? Al Mohler. Is Calvinism good for the church?

Burke Parsons. If God is good, how could he command holy war? Derek Thomas.

And can we enjoy heaven knowing of loved ones in hell? R .C. Sproul. I have interviewed all of these men that you have at this conference with the exception of two that I'm eagerly awaiting to interview,

Alistair Begg and Al Mohler. But what a lineup of speakers and titles.

Dr. R .C. Sproul. Yeah, we're very excited about this lineup. It's really an exquisite lineup. In fact, it also included at one point

John Piper and then he had to take sabbatical and so we had to replace him.

But we're sorry that he won't be able to be with us. But this is just an incredible group of speakers that will be at that conference.

And I think, as you said, a very provocative focus for the conference to address these issues that are very difficult and that cause a lot of people a small amount of anxiety as they struggle with them.

We do have a caller on the line from Texas listening on the Internet. If you could give us your first name and the city that you're calling from in Texas.

Hi. Yes, this is Tony in Irving, Texas. Great. Now, Tony, if you could take the answer to your question off of the

Internet because we want to leave room for other callers. Okay. Very good. Well, first, hi,

Dr. Sproul, and I would like to thank you first for your teaching ministry on the radio. I've benefited also greatly from it as a

Calvinist here in the Dallas area. And also, thanks for sharing your time to interact with us on this radio program.

It's my pleasure. My question for you concerns the well -meant nature of the gospel offer, since this is also one of the tough issues that Christians face.

There is a small but increasing group of Calvinists who think that there is no willingness or desire or wish on the part of God and has revealed will for the salvation of the non -elect or the reprobate.

Would you say that you agree with such men as Prosper, Ercinus, Edwards, John Murray, Ian Murray, and J .I.

Packer, just to name a few, who believe that there is a genuine wish or desire on the part of God for the salvation of all men?

And would you say that God's gospel offer is indeed well -meant? Yes. The question of the integrity of the universal offer of the gospels is one that the

Reformed people, and you mentioned the panoply of scholars who have addressed this issue over the years, and I will hold the traditional view that was expressed by Ercinus and later by John Murray and others, that there is a genuine offer of the gospel that is related to God's generally gracious disposition to all who are fallen with certain qualifications.

Keep in mind that the gospel is not offered indiscriminately in the sense that it's offered to anybody.

It's offered to anybody who believes. And so, in a very real sense, that restricts it.

I mean, that should go without saying that what we call the universal offer of the gospel is contingent upon a response of faith.

And the reason I put that little quibble in there, Tony, is that we are hearing more and more from preachers in the media who are announcing that God loves everybody unconditionally.

And that sort of leaves the impression that people don't have to do anything in order to be redeemed, including repent and believe.

If God loves me unconditionally, without any conditions, then it's like Mr. Rogers' neighborhood.

He loves me exactly and precisely just as I am. And that's very dangerously misleading.

And so, yes, I believe that the gospel is offered to all who believe.

Now, again, somebody's going to say, but isn't it true that only the elect will believe?

And I said, yes, that would be true. But nevertheless, it's offered to anyone who does, in fact, believe and trust in it.

Well, do you believe, jumping off on that question, do you believe that the gospel, the preaching of the gospel, even when the unelect hear it, that it has benefit in their lives?

Obviously, it will not have an eternal benefit. But do you believe that it does have a benefit in the life of the non -elect when he hears the gospel?

Yes and no. It's kind of a double jeopardy there. The benefit is every time the gospel is preached, even if people don't submit to it, it has a restraining impact on them, which will reduce, to some degree, the wickedness that they engage in in this life.

The downside is that everyone who hears the gospel and rejects it now acquires a new and very serious negative judgment from God.

Because to reject the gospel is to insult the

Son of God and the Father who sent him into this world.

In that sense, ultimately, all the benefits that we receive from God in this world at the last judgment, if you're an unbeliever, become tragedies, just in contrast to the teaching that all the so -called tragedies that believers experience in this world, since they work together for good through God's sovereign purpose, end up as blessings.

Now, I don't want to offend any of my listeners unnecessarily, but isn't it true that if you are professing to be a

Christian and you profess to believe in the inerrancy of the scriptures, that if you say

God loves everybody unconditionally, you must be, therefore, a full -blown universalist because there could not possibly be a hell with inhabitants in it, if that was true?

I don't agree with that. I think it is an implicit universalism. Though, those who say that,

I think for the most part, don't really take it to that conclusion. They seem to live in what we call a happy, felicitous contradiction.

A happy and felicity. I'm sorry, but an irrational felicity.

I just want to repeat our number. It's 631 -482 -8300, 631 -482 -8300.

One of the themes that you're speaking on, what is evil and where did it come from? That's one of the questions that amaze and baffle a lot of folks.

This is a question also that perhaps those that reject the doctrines of sovereign grace, the doctrines of God's sovereignty in election and predestination, will immediately throw at us as a tough question.

And as you said, this conference is about tough questions Christians face. But if you could obviously give us an abbreviated answer because this is a whole lecture you're giving at the conference.

Yes, and most of what I'll be doing at the conference is giving sort of a historical reconnaissance over how the great scholars of church history have struggled with the question of the origin of evil and basically come to the conclusion that we don't have an adequate answer to that question.

And so, even whether you're a Calvinist or not a Calvinist, it doesn't matter as far as answering the ultimate problematic question of the entrance of evil into the world.

That's a problem for theism, whether Reformed or Unreformed. Although, one of the things by which we take comfort as Reformed Christians is that we know that evil could not have entered the world or be in the world if God in some way did not purpose that it be here.

Because if you believe in God and that he is sovereign over all things, and every

Arminian would admit to that and confess their belief that God is sovereign over everything, if God is sovereign over history and over the creation, then obviously his sovereign power and authority extends over evil itself.

And don't get me wrong, it's a sin to say that evil is good or that good is evil.

But at the same time, since God is God, and God is sovereign, and evil exists, we cannot resist the necessary conclusion that in some sense, listen carefully, it's good that evil exists or God would not tolerate it.

Now, that does not mean again that evil is good or that good is evil, but rather I'm saying that even though evil is evil,

God works his purposes through and in that present as he is sovereign over.

You see that in the case of Joseph, and you see it most dramatically in the purposes that God works for the redemption of his people through the unbelievable wickedness of Judas and all of those who were involved in the execution of Jesus.

Yes, and as that classic text from Scripture, Romans 8, 28, teaches that all things work together for the good for those who love

God and are the called according to his purpose, it doesn't say all things are good. That's right. We do have another listener on the line.

We have Bob in White Plains, New York. Welcome to Iron Trip and Zarn, Bob. Hello, Chris, and hello,

Dr. Sproul. How are you guys? Just fine, Bob. It's good to hear from you. Hey, I just want to say, Dr. Sproul, God bless you so much in your ministry of Ligonier, because I have to say that I'm well fed every morning by your program,

Renewing Your Mind on WNCA Radio. I'm so glad to hear that as well. Hey, I just want to know,

I also want to say that I admire your son, R .C. Jr., and his book,

Believing God, was a tremendous blessing to me. That is a great book, isn't it? I loved that book. I had everybody on our board.

I gave a copy of Everybody on the Board of Ligoniers, that book. I was ministered to by that book.

It's a great book. Thanks for saying that. I also started reading Grace Unknown as well.

Somebody introduced me to that book. I mentioned earlier that they've redone that book, and the new title is What is

Reformed Theology. Oh, I did not know that. Yeah, okay. So, as I'm reading

Grace Unknown, I come from the Church of Christ background, and so the

Reformed Theology is somewhat new to me. I just came onto the program, so I don't know if you've discussed this yet, but I'm scratching my head as I'm reading the book a little bit, and I'm thinking of particularly

John 3, 16. I'm saying to myself, did God so love the world, or did God so love the elect?

And then also 1 Timothy 2, where Paul, verses 1 through 6, where Paul is talking about prayers and intercessions for all the people there when he was talking to Timothy for kings and people in high places, et cetera, saying that God desires all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

I wonder if you could just touch on those two scriptures as it relates to reform. Well, I think in the discussion, John 3, 16 has been severely misused.

All that that text teaches us is that God loved this fallen world enough to provide a redeemer for it.

It doesn't mean that he loved them enough to save everybody in the world, otherwise it would lead us to universalism.

But rather, God's love is so great that he gave us his only begotten son, that whoever believed in him would not perish, but have everlasting life.

And he sent his son into the world, as John goes on to tell us there, that was already under condemnation because the world had rejected

God the Father, and they preferred darkness rather than the light.

So the text itself doesn't really address the doctrine of election in any way at all.

All it does is tell us all who do A, that is, believe, will not have

B, they will not perish, but they will have C, everlasting life.

Some people derive the implication from this that this means that anybody in the world has the innate ability in and of themselves to incline themselves to faith.

Well, John makes very clear in chapter 6 that's not the case, that in our fallen condition, no one will of themselves come to Jesus.

Now you mentioned this other text, were you talking about 2 Peter or Timothy? 1 Timothy 2.

All right, about that God desires, that God does not want anyone to perish?

Right. Again, that tells us about his will of disposition,

I think, in the Timothy passage. In the 2 Peter passage, God is not willing that any should perish, which is often used as the strong biblical case against election.

But in the context of that, you have to ask, when it says that God is not willing that any should perish, do we have to say any what?

Any kangaroos? Any grasshoppers? And people infer from the text that God is not willing that any person would perish.

Well, if in God's sovereign will, he decrees that no person on this planet perishes, then what?

No one will perish. And if his desire that all come to repentance is expressed in a sovereign sense, then that again would be a text for universalism.

And so those who reject Calvinism, but also at the same time reject universalism, have a problem with these texts because these texts prove more than they want to prove, taken from their perspective, if you're following my thinking at this point.

But if you look carefully, for example, at the 2 Peter passage, it's very clear what

Peter's talking about when he says, not willing that any, if you look in the context, the antecedent of any is us.

And if you look at the people to whom the letter is addressed, the letter is addressed to whom?

To the elect. So the text, rather than undermining election, solidifies it because God is not willing that any of the elect should perish, but that all of them come to salvation.

Hey Bob, thanks for the excellent questions. Thank you gentlemen. 631 -482 -8300 is our number, 631 -482 -8300.

Before we move on to announce the new college at Ligonier Academy in Biblical and Theological Studies, if you could also touch on one of the most profound themes of your conference, that I would love it if you could come back on the program and do the whole program, the whole hour on this, because there's a lot of broken -hearted people out there grieving the loss of a loved one who was, in their belief, lost.

Can we enjoy heaven knowing of loved ones in hell? Now obviously this would be very difficult in the brief time that we have left to fully plumb the depths of that question, but if you could at least...

I don't think that if we weren't talking about it for two or three hours that I'd really be able to relieve the stress that people have over a question like that.

I remember when I was in seminary, somebody asked that question to my professor there, how can

I be happy if I wake up in heaven and I discover that my mother's in hell? And the professor looked at the student and he said, young man, don't you understand that when you are in heaven, you will be so perfected from the remnants of sin and your glorification that you will be able to look at your mother in hell and delight in the fact that she's there.

When he said that, I burst out laughing because I thought he was joking. I really did. I thought, this guy can't be serious.

But he was serious, and what he was getting at is, right now I can't imagine myself being happy if people that I know and love and really care for are in everlasting darkness.

But that's because I'm looking at it from the perspective of a person who's barely sanctified and still

I have more sympathy with my sinful friends and relatives than I have with God.

And I'm more concerned about the well -being of my friends and loved ones than I am for the glory of God.

And if indeed the divine judgment is an expression of God's glory, then there will have to come a day where I'm far more sanctified than I now am, that at that day

I will be able to rejoice that God's will is being done. I'm not there now, Chris.

A few of us are, but the idea is in my head, that's the only way I can get my hands around that, that there will come a time where I will be more on God's side than I will be on my friend's side.

I remember my friend Ed Moore, who pastors a Calvinistic Baptist church here in the New York metropolitan area, he was at a conference where someone in the audience asked the speaker, if I get to heaven, will

I see my mother there? And the speaker said, if you get to heaven, you'll be just as happy to see my mother there.

Yeah, that's the same point of all that I'm saying. Yes. That's right. Well, this is exciting news about the new college at Ligonier Academy of Biblical and Theological Studies.

Tell us about this and who can apply for this. Well, we just started it last July. The first program that we have is a doctor of ministry program for pastors, and that's phase one.

And phase two is an undergraduate Bible college with majors in Biblical and Theological Studies, and later on we're going to have one in sacred music, and we have a curriculum that features church history, philosophy, apologetics,

New Testament, Old Testament, and theology. And it's a Bible school, really. And right now we're hoping to kick off the first semester of the academy next

September. That is September 2011. We're just now taking inquiries and applications for that first class.

But we're very, very excited. We have a gorgeous location for this academy.

We have no intentions of being a Cecil B. DeMille University with a cast of thousands.

It's a small college with intimate relationships from a pedagogical perspective between faculty and students.

Now, one question I've been curious to ask you, because I have not read this as of yet anywhere, but I know that you have gone through some theological transformation, as everybody who goes through the process of sanctification does, but were you ever a non -Calvinist in your

Christian life, and were you ever an anti -Calvinist? You know,

Roger Nicole, a great Swiss theologian, said we all are by nature semi -Pelagian.

And when I was converted, it was kind of a Damascus Road sudden conversion, and I knew intuitively that I didn't have anything to do with it, that it was

God who found me. I certainly was not pursuing God at all when I became a Christian. However, when

I tried to understand the theology of salvation, virtually everybody around me had taken an

Arminian approach to it, but my chief professor in college was Reformed, and he did everything in his power to persuade me of Reformed thought, but I fought it kicking and screaming for five years.

Actually, I didn't submit to the doctrines of grace until I took a course in seminary on the theology of Jonathan Edwards.

And my theology professor there, coupled with Edwards, and I have a little note on my desk that said, you're required to believe and to teach what the

Bible teaches, not what you would like it to teach. And it was like Edwards just relentlessly put my nose in Romans 9, and I couldn't escape

Romans 9. And once I acquiesced to it, then I saw it on every page.

You know how that is. Yeah. Well, you know, a pastor that I know who was born and raised in an

Arminian evangelical home, he came to the doctrines of sovereign grace, obviously by God's grace itself, but the instrument

God used was an unsaved, non -Christian college professor who taught a course on Jonathan Edwards just because he was a profound figure of American history.

And that was what the Lord used to bring him to the doctrines of grace. Isn't that something? It really is. You know, but I think there's a sort of a poetic justice in that, because I've spent so many years contending for the

Reformed faith and dealing with my Arminian friends who find it very distasteful, and I have to be patient, and I have to remember, hey,

I sat where you are now for a long time, and I think sometimes God's just getting even with me for my obstinance.

Well, I apologize to all of our listeners who are hanging on to talk to you. We unfortunately have to say goodbye to Dr.

Sproul right now, but all the information you need about his books, about DVDs, about the conference, about the

College at Ligonier Academy of Biblical and Theological Studies can be found at Ligonier .org,

L -I -G -O -N -I -E -R .org. Any final words you'd like to say to our audience?

Oh, no, just, Chris, I just want to say thank you for your graciousness in hosting me on your program.

And I would ask the people who are listening to this discussion, some I'm sure right now are struggling, some of them are probably angry,

I just ask people to continue to search the Scriptures and examine these matters of the doctrines of Christ, because they are important.

Because in the final analysis, the question is, is my salvation of God totally, or is it part

God and part me? And I think as long as we hold on to that human -centered aspect of our understanding of our salvation, we fail to see the graciousness of grace.

And it's really a liberating thing and a joy to the spirit to come to an appreciation of how sweet and excellent

God's grace is that he would save a wretch like me. Amen. Thank you so much,

Dr. Sproul, for being on the broadcast. I will be sure to promote this conference regularly, and I hope to get as many of the speakers on to promote their own lectures at the conference as possible.

And I hope to have you back on this program very soon, Dr. Sproul. Thanks a lot. I'd love to do it,

Chris. Thank you, and God bless. You bet. And as I said before, we have Ken Jones coming on after our station break.

Ken Jones, former senior pastor of Greater Union Baptist Church in Compton, California, and the new senior pastor of Glendale Missionary Baptist Church in Miami, Florida.

He's one of the regular panel members on Michael Horton's nationally syndicated talk broadcast,

The White Horse Sin. And Ken Jones is going to be talking about how Ligonier Ministries has had an impact on his life.

He's also going to be talking about his journey as an African American into Reformed Christianity. And you can call

Ken Jones with your questions at 631 -482 -8300. 631 -482 -8300.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Ken Jones of The White Horse Sin. It's more and more difficult these days in a culture dominated by commercialism to find a biblically sound local congregation that has not also caved into the mindset and methodology of mainstream media advertising agencies that seek to appeal to the appetites of the world.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you've just tuned us in, our guest for the second half of this broadcast is my friend

Ken Jones. And he is the former pastor of Greater Union Baptist Church in Compton, California.

He is the new pastor at the Glendale Missionary Baptist Church in the

Miami, Florida area. And he is also most well -known for being one of the co -hosts of the

White Horse Inn broadcast with Michael Horton and Kim Riddlebarger and Rod Rosenblatt.

And he is one of the contributors to the book Glory Road, The Journeys of Ten African Americans into Reformed Christianity.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back. Go and sharpen his iron, Ken Jones. Thank you, Chris. Good to be with you.

And we already can have a listener on the line for you. I guess he couldn't hold on.

Well, Bruce in Stony Brook, New York, if you want to call back, I see you got a little impatient there. 631 -482 -8300.

631 -482 -8300 is our number. And by the way, I know that we've been getting so many calls tonight that a lot of people are being sent directly into a recording, an answering machine recording.

I don't know how these technical things work with the phone company. But if you have a question, just keep trying and hopefully you'll eventually get through.

It's 631 -482 -8300. Well, first of all, Ken, tell us something about how exactly

God has used Dr. R .C. Sproul and Ligonier Ministries in your life and faith. Oh, boy,

I don't know where to begin. The first book that I read by R .C. was Chosen by God, and that was late 80s, early 90s.

And then I attended Ligonier Conference for the first time in San Diego, California in 1990.

And from that time, I began to make contacts or have relationships with some of the staff and eventually became part of the

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals with R .C. And so we were able to develop a personal relationship.

But between his writings, the Table Talk magazine, which

I've been able to contribute to on a number of occasions, and the conferences,

R .C. has been just a tremendous resource for me personally in understanding

Reformed theology and to understand its practical implications as well.

And then I'd say just from my working with him more closely over the years,

I've been able to see how he communicates such rich theology in concise terms, making it accessible for many people who otherwise would not maybe even give the time of day to Reformational theology.

So he's been able to really impact Evangelical Christianity with a message they would not ordinarily be open to.

Yes, and he will regularly discuss very deep things, complicated things, and use 20 -syllable words, but he will always break it down and define what he's talking about.

He won't leave you hanging, making you feel like you're an outsider at some sort of egghead meeting.

Exactly. He'll always make the presentation of the Gospel clear. We do have a listener on the line. Please give us your first name and the city and state you're calling from.

Welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron. Hi, it's Bruce from Stony Brook. Oh, great to have you back, Bruce.

I'm back. I was running low on battery there. Okay. My question for Ken was,

I heard him a couple of times on the White Horse Inn, and so I know it's a

Reformed Christian program, and I was wondering, is he pastoring a

Reformed Baptist church, and if not, why not, and sort of what's the difference there?

Well, the church that I'm going to, which is Glendale Baptist Church, is a

Southern Baptist church, and they are familiar with the doctrines of grace. The degree and extent to which they are familiar remains to be seen.

However, in the Southern Baptist Church, in the history of the

Southern Baptist Church, there are ties to Reformed theology. The founder of Southern Baptist Seminary or Southern Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, James Pettigrew Boyce, was a

Calvinistic Baptist. So there's not necessarily a disconnect between Southern Baptist and Calvinism or Reformed theology.

The church that I previously pastored for 21 years, they also at one time were members of the

Southern Baptist Convention. So I don't necessarily find it necessary to depart or to just be a part of the

Reformed Baptist Churches of America in order to be consistently Calvinistic and Baptist at the same time.

The reasons for us not formally joining or being a part of ARPCA, they would be many and secondary, but certainly we would agree with them in the basic theology of the 1689

Baptist Confession of Faith. Any follow -up there, Bruce? No, thank you very much.

I appreciate it. By the way, Bruce, is this the first time you've ever called? Yes, it is. Well, if you go to sharpens .org,

S -H -A -R -P -E -N -S dot O -R -G, and go to the right side of the screen and scroll down, right underneath where you see my photograph, click on Contact Chris Arnzen, and email me your full name, your mailing address, and I will get you a free genuine leather

New American Standard update Bible, which retails for $65. This is compliments of the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible and also compliments of the law firm of Buttafuoco & Associates, our premier sponsors.

Wow, thank you very much. Hey, thanks, Bruce. Okay, thank you, Bruce. And our number is 631 -482 -8300, 631 -482 -8300.

And obviously the roots, as you were saying, of the Southern Baptist Convention were entirely

Calvinist, but today you would be a small minority, amazingly, as a

Calvinist in the Southern Baptist Convention. Yes, there is a group within Southern Baptist called

Founders. Yes. Headed up by Tom Askew, and I forget who else is involved, but I know

Mark Devers is a member as well. Mark is a pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist in Washington, D .C.

So there is a contingency and a fellowship within the Southern Baptist Convention that embraces the

Reformational theology of James Boyce and actually the founders of the

Southern Baptist Convention. In fact, I believe the first five presidents of the Southern Baptist Convention were all

Calvinists. Now, in your own Christian walk and experience, going back to the book

Glory Road, I've interviewed you on several occasions before that book came out, but I have yet to actually interview you on your chapter in that book.

What was your theology then, before coming to the

Reformed faith? What was the theology, even to start with, in your home, if any, and how did you come to Christ and how did you come to the

Reformed faith? Well, the theology that I was raised in would be broadly

Arminian and dispensational. To some degree, you could say it was by default.

It was simply because there wasn't an emphasis on systematic theology. But as far as the dispensationalism, that seemed to be pretty intentional.

So that's what I grew up with, and I really began to dabble into Reformed theology when

I was a senior in high school. I came to faith fairly young. I believe I was about 11 or 12. But when

I was in high school, I ran across a sermon by Jonathan Edwards, Centers in the Hands of an

Angry God. I was intrigued by his treatment of God, his depiction of God in his absolute holiness and the majesty of God's law.

And that prompted me to read other sermons by Edwards. Then later in college,

I was introduced to John Calvin by a professor with the

Institutes of the Christian Religion by Calvin and also on the Attributes and Existence of God by Stephen Charnock.

So those were the primary tools, along with J .I. Packer's Knowing God, that really kind of led me in the direction of Reformational theology.

Now, going back to something you said about your upbringing in a dispensational church, is that even common in the mainstream of African -American

Christianity today or the African -American church, even when there are many, to be in any way identifying themselves as dispensationalists?

Yes, either intentionally or, again, by default. By default,

I mean simply where it's not intentionally embraced or articulated, but the tenets of it are more or less embraced.

And that's largely because of the influence of the Schofield Bible, the correlation between most national

Baptist churches and Dallas Theological Seminary and other seminaries where they tend to be

Arminian and or dispensational. We have to take our final break for this half of the broadcast.

631 -482 -8300 is our number, 631 -482 -8300. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Ken Jones after these messages, so don't go away.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Sorensen, and this is the last segment of tonight's interview with Ken Jones of the White Horse Center.

Our number is 631 -482 -8300 if you have a question for Ken. We do have Tim in Fremont, California on the line.

Welcome to Iron Sharpens Iron. Thank you, Chris. I've got a question for Ken. I have a brother -in -law who is leaning heavily on the full preterism position.

I know you've been broadcasting some programs on that previously. A few of us are supposed to get together with him here eventually.

He says he's leaning towards it, but he pretty much seems to be pushing it constantly. On this one, what would be the best advice?

Obviously, you've shared good books and literature. What would be some of the key points that you would point out to him besides confessions?

All the saints of old don't seem to hold that. We would call that heresy, holding the full preteristic position.

What would you suggest? That's a tough situation.

To be honest with you, I don't know of any passages that would fully support the full preteristic position which would maintain that Christ has already come in judgment with the fall of Jerusalem in A .D.

70. So that's the basis of the position. I do think that Kim Riddlebarger's book,

A Case for Amillennialism, does a real good job of presenting eschatological views held by different Reformed Christians.

And he does more or less address the issue of preterism, and full preterism in particular.

There are those who would hold what we would call a partial preterist view, which would say that Christ returned in judgment in A .D.

70, but that wasn't the fullness of his second coming. But I think Kim's book would probably put you in the right ballpark to answer some of the questions and address some of the issues raised by the full preterist position.

Yeah, there's also an excellent book titled When Shall These Things Be? by Keith Matheson of Ligonier Ministries.

He edited it, actually. There's a number of authors in there that are specifically refuting the hyper -preterist position.

That's what the entire book is about, actually. What do you suggest we do if he continues to reject our admonition, and eventually, because I told him he's got to get off the fence, he's got to either say he holds to that position or he doesn't.

So we're just wondering what we should tell him if he can eventually hold to that position, because in history it's always been held as a heretical view.

Yeah, well, Ken, isn't that not the heresy of Hymenaeus and Philetus in the

Scriptures? They said that the resurrection had already happened. Exactly, and Paul takes on that.

And I was going to say that you might want to just refer him to Paul's logical presentation, what

I have called the best apology for the resurrection in the New Testament, which is in 1

Corinthians 15. And he takes up the issue there of if people say that Christ is not raised, and then you couple that with, as you mentioned, his argument against Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have said that he has already come, or 2

Thessalonians, also in chapter 2 in particular, where those who have raised the possibility that Christ has already come.

I think those three portions of New Testament Scripture, understanding the dynamics of the resurrection, understanding

Paul's argument against Hymenaeus and Philetus, and then also his counsel to the church at Thessalonica, I think those are probably the best and strongest

Biblical arguments against the four -preterist view. Hey Tim, if you want to go to sharpens .org,

you can look up some MP3s of past programs we have done with former hyper -preterists who have rejected that view and now believe that it is heresy and outside the boundaries of Orthodox Christianity.

Yeah, I've actually pointed him to those, and I've listened to all those myself. I appreciate that, and just pray for us, because we believe he's a brother, but we think he's an error in this area.

Hey, thanks for calling in Tim. By the way, Tim, have you ever won one of our free genuine leather Bibles? Yeah, I actually did when

I called, and I think it was, somebody was doing, it was Noah who was doing the Calvinistic Baptist history.

Well hey, thanks for calling. Yeah, I did, I appreciate that Bible. God bless. God bless you, thanks Tim. We have time for one more phone call, 631 -482 -8300, 631 -482 -8300.

Ken, we have to have you on for the full hour at some point very soon, but if you could, unless we get a caller in the last few minutes that we have, actually only about two,

I'd like you to just give a brief word that you want our listeners to have most etched in their hearts and minds when they leave today's program.

Well, I would say that, number one, with programs such as Iron Sharpens Iron, we want to continue to lift those efforts in prayer, the work of people like R .C.

Sproul with Ligonier, and even the works that we've been involved with, with White Horse Head and Modern Reformation, because these are just a few places where the

Gospel and the personal work of Christ are fully expounded and appreciated, and some of the errors that trouble the

Church in our day are not always blatant, but they are subtle, and many of them are well -intended

Christians, but they are confused in their categories and understanding the implications of the

Gospel on all areas of life. So my encouragement is those who are listeners, continue to pray and support such efforts, because many of the people, just like the previous caller,

Tim, has a brother who is confused on a particular issue. In this case, it's an eschatological issue.

In many cases, it deals with soteriology in the person of Christ. Yes, and that is a very dangerous heresy, in my opinion, and I think that some of the adherents of that view actually do have a dangerous soteriology as well.

But we have to go, unfortunately. Time just flies by too fast. Ken, how can our listeners get a hold of you, and how can they hear

The White Horse Inn, wherever they live? Well, you can go to our website, which

I believe is whitehorseinn .org, and there you can download previous broadcasts, and there's a whole menu of options that are available.

Look us up also on Modern Reformation. I'm writing this year, the whole year, for Table Talk magazine, so we have material available there.

My new church is Glendale Baptist, and I believe the website is glendalebaptistchurch .org,

I believe. But you can always catch us on The White Horse Inn. Yes, and if you go to sharpens .org

by tonight or tomorrow, God willing, you will have all the links that you need to get a hold of The White Horse Inn and get a hold of the

Glendale Baptist Church, and also to get a hold of the book, Glory Road, The Journeys of Ten African Americans into Reformed Christianity.

And Ken Jones, our guest, was one of those ten who contributed to that book. Thank you so much, brother.

It's always a delight to have you on the program. I look forward to having you back very quickly. Thank you, Chris. Always good to be with you.

I want to thank everybody who listened tonight, especially those who called in. I want to thank Dr. R .C. Sproul and Ken Jones, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far, far greater