Is Cultural Appropriation Sinful?

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Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

02:02

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrigg and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, is cultural appropriation sinful?

02:10

Now, it seems like this is one of those topics that, while it is very prevalent today, it's not necessarily something that has been discussed over the course of centuries.

02:24

Tim, I doubt there's very many writings from Augustine on the topic of cultural appropriation.

02:30

Is this a relatively recent sort of controversy that's come up?

02:40

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely the kind of thing that – I mean, it's been going on in academic discourse since the 80s, so it's not necessarily a new idea, but then

02:49

I think there's been over the past few years just an increasing awareness of some of these knee -jerk impulses that people have had.

03:00

Most of us, for many decades now, we've just been subconsciously brainwashed by some of these nonsensical ideas like cultural appropriation, and then

03:11

I think with Trump's presidency in general, once he declared war on critical theory, a lot of people just became much more aware of a vocabulary for what intuitively they've been trained in, and so there's been a lot more talk about these kind of things in a post -Trump world in general, where a lot of these things that are currents that are operating under the surface, they've kind of been brought to light.

03:40

But now, I mean, cultural appropriation is like a term that's being used much more regularly, so it's not just like some sort of intuitive, you can't do certain things, you don't necessarily know why, but you're being told they're racist, so you can't do certain things.

03:57

Now, it's much more like in -your -face, it's labeled, it has a name now.

04:04

So, I mean, I think growing up, there's been,

04:10

I won't say necessarily growing up, but I've seen things in the past decade of seminary professors who basically adopting rap poses while making a rap video, and getting in trouble for being racially insensitive, and so that kind of thing used to be talked about as a language of racial insensitivity.

04:30

So, if you get a bunch of old white guys doing a rap video, acting like gangsters, throwing gang signs and doing all that, you would think, oh, man, this is offensive.

04:42

This is offensive, this is culturally, or this is racially insensitive or whatever. That's kind of the language that would be used about 10 years ago, and now we're the whole time kind of thing.

04:58

And that name is cultural appropriation. So, cultural appropriation, what is it? Is it just pretending that you're from a different culture?

05:05

Is that what you're saying? So, Oxford defines it as the unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of the customs, practices, ideas, etc.

05:15

of one people or society by members of another, and typically more dominant people or society.

05:21

And so, there's like an asymmetrical standard here. So, cultural appropriation is just like it's a big nothing burger.

05:29

It's just nonsense. So, if you think about it as it relates to from a minority acting like a white person or something like that.

05:43

So, like a black person acting like a white person. It's just like there's nothing to this.

05:49

I mean, there's always going to be a dominant group in society.

05:55

So, if I go to China, I'm going to have to adopt the practices, the cultures, the habits of Chinese people in order to fit in, right?

06:02

Like that's what I'm going to have to do. Meaning, like if I want to get ahead in the –

06:08

I mean, I could just go there and just be myself, right? And not learn the language, not learn the customs, not learn the practices.

06:14

Like just build like a strange unconventional house like in the middle of like all the

06:21

Chinese houses or stuff like that. Like you could just be like a wrecking ball of culture if you want, right?

06:27

Make no effort whatsoever to fit in. But like if you were to do that kind of thing, no one would literally blink an eye, right?

06:36

Like meaning if I were to go to China and I would need to in some sense adopt some

06:43

Chinese cultures and practices, being not a Chinese person myself, I would have to kind of do that in order to relate to that society.

06:50

And that's just generally like what you do, right? Like that's just generally how the world works.

06:57

But then like now where the idea of cultural appropriation happens is like when you have – like why that would not be considered cultural appropriation for me to do that, to adopt those practices or habits would be because like if the dominant culture is

07:15

Chinese and me is like a 75 % white guy goes to China, right?

07:24

Then I would be considered like a minority in that way. And so then I'm just kind of conforming myself to maturity.

07:29

So what's happened though is like critical theory has taught us to problematize like every single cultural interaction in those ways.

07:37

And so like in America, like in particular, white males are seen as like the dominant oppressive group of people, right?

07:46

So like a black person can basically like act in like a stereotypical white way and no one would blink an eye whatsoever, right?

07:57

And so like what's happening though is like you can have like Hispanic people come here. Like there's no – like because like white people are viewed as kind of like or whatever you want to call it.

08:08

White culture is viewed as like an oppressor like due to critical theory. Then there's no impulse that anyone has, like no expectation anyone has that anyone should assimilate to that because that would be assimilating to like this oppressor class, right, of people in a way that like if you were to go to another country, there would be some sort of expectation that you would like assimilate.

08:29

Now I understand that like America's history is complicated just like every history is complicated, right?

08:38

So but then when you think about like what's actually being communicated here, like if you're a member of a – like if you view the world to like oppressor and oppressed classes of people, then like with the idea of cultural appropriation, like one of these like dominant or oppressor classes, when they adopt like these cultural practices of like oppressed or marginalized quote -unquote group of people, then like that's when you have like cultural appropriation quote -unquote occurring.

09:07

So that would be the unacknowledged or inappropriate adoption of customs, practices, ideas of one people or society by members of another typically more dominant.

09:16

So like if the white seminary professors are making the rap video where they're dressed up as like thugs and gang members and throwing up gang signs, then like basically that's viewed through the language of like a power dynamic, right, through power dynamics.

09:34

And so functionally then when they do something like that, they're like basically othering like black people in that way, right?

09:44

And so then like that's just an exercise of patriarchal like oppressive like dominance – Colonizer dominance, yeah.

09:52

Colonizer dominance, yeah. So that's essentially what's happening. But I mean like going the other way, I mean I did an appliance delivery job and when

10:04

I was just getting out of seminary, I did an appliance delivery job and my quote -unquote partner – you can't even say that word anymore because it sounds weird.

10:15

But my delivery partner, he was a black dude, right?

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And so now he would talk like he had all the bass like in his voice that you can imagine gravelly bass like –

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I mean you could almost not even understand what he was saying while he's sitting there talking to his girlfriend on the phone like next to me or whatever.

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And then when he would call a customer up, he would switch from like full on like gravelly bass voice to – hey, this is

10:47

James from Billy's Delivery. Well, Tim, that's just – that's code switching.

10:53

Code switching is perfectly fine. I mean

10:58

I looked at him. I looked at him. I was like, what are you doing? What are you doing over there? He's like you got to take the bass out of your voice or you'll scare white folks.

11:05

It's kind of what he said. You got to take the bass out of your voice or you'll scare the white folks.

11:15

But all right. So thinking about that though, that's not him mocking white people by getting like the nerdiest white voice that you could possibly imagine, right?

11:29

So because he's viewed as a member of a marginalized group of people. And so him making fun of white people by doing the nerd white voice while he's calling up customers, like that –

11:44

I was like what do you think they're going to do when they see you and you're talking in your normal voice? You're going to talk in the nerd voice?

11:50

Like you can't pull it off, man. But anyways, no, that's not cultural appropriation. But then if you were to do it in the reverse, then – like basically you have a worldview that problematizes every kind of normal thing.

12:03

So going one direction, it's considered like really, really bad. And then going the other direction is perfectly fine, which is why –

12:11

I mean you can watch comedy shows and you can have a black dude on a comedy show just sitting there mercilessly mocking white people over and over and over again.

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And that's called punching up, right? So that's punching up. Meaning because black people in our society are viewed as victims, you can kind of – that's just like speaking truth to power.

12:34

That's punching up. That's just like – it's okay when a member who is oppressed picks on his oppressors.

12:43

But then if you do it in the reverse – and this is how it's viewed. It's basically kind of – it's viewed like making fun of a mentally handicapped person or something like that.

12:53

That's called punching down. And so then if you make a joke the opposite way, then that's an exercise of colonialism, of dominance.

13:03

That's othering. That's oppressing, right? And so you have like – what you have is you have like just this rigid law that's being like in the minds of many people, like unspoken kind of law that basically says like you have to view everything through the lens of power dynamics.

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And once you view everything through the lens of power dynamics, then you have one class of people who are just like – so like white people in America are viewed as like being oppressors of black people.

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And that's the basic assumption that makes all the – like the inverse kind of logic makes sense.

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Once you view it that way, then basically black people can make fun of white people. White people can't make fun of black people, right?

13:46

Like you can't tease. Teasing only goes one way. And then like a black person could – like they could even – white face.

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And make a joke out of it. No one cares. But then the opposite is like, whoa, you can't do that because any kind of like – if a white person were to adopt like the cultural practices and habits of a black person, then like you're stealing from them, right?

14:17

You're taking something from them. You're othering them, right? You're either making fun of them or you're taking something from them or you're like mocking them or you're reinforcing negative stereotypes in that way.

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So like the only way you could even do it would be to adopt some sort of – like reinforce some kind of negative stereotypes in that way.

14:34

And then like if – like in the mildest kind of forms, like what you're doing is you're taking something from them.

14:45

So there are some actresses who did something like that with makeup or something where she started to do some sort of makeup style that black women have been doing for years and it was just outrageous in the minds of many people because it was like now she's trying to claim ownership of this makeup style as if it were hers, right?

15:04

And it's not – take credit for it herself and make it popular now. And now people, when they see it, they're going to think of like this white actress instead of where it comes from.

15:13

And so like this is just like what happens when you view the lens of power dynamics.

15:19

I was glad you mentioned the whole comedy thing. Like you have comedians who come out and they'll like make fun of white people or whatever and I think a lot of times if you want to see what a society believes, you go and you listen to the comedians, right?

15:40

And so – right, right. And the reason is because like the funniest jokes are the ones that are rooted in some sort of like truth, right?

15:51

Not necessarily truth in the sense of like absolute truth, but then truth in the sense of like they're relevant to the current cultural climate and so people understand what you're joking about.

16:03

And I like watching Key and Peele a lot and they do this all the time.

16:09

But the funny thing is they don't just do it with white people.

16:15

I mean they make fun of Asian people. They make fun of Mexicans. They make fun of black people.

16:21

They make – yeah. You are a quarter Mexican. You do technically have a right to be offended by that.

16:32

To be offended. 25 %? Well, 25 % of myself can be offended, right? And the other 75 % is constantly oppressing the other 25%.

16:41

Yeah. So I guess I have to like – 75 % of myself has to feel like guilty for laughing at it and then 25 % can laugh at jokes.

16:53

This is a class in CRT math right now. But yeah, so you see guys like this.

17:01

I guess in some credit to Key and Peele, they do kind of get everyone eventually with their jokes.

17:09

But then a lot of them are sort of pointed towards white people and dressing up like white people and making fun of them.

17:18

But then if you had a black comedian come along and do the same thing, they would get –

17:25

I mean if you had a white comedian. If you have a white comedian come along and do the same thing and like put an Afro on and change the way he talks, all of a sudden it would be like a very – it would not be received nearly as well.

17:38

It's kind of like the whole – who was the actor that – he was like a black person throughout the entire movie and then right at the end of the movie you find out he's actually a white person.

17:54

Do you know? Oh, it was Robert Downey Jr.

18:02

So he puts on blackface, right, and then he's a black guy the entire movie.

18:08

And no one knows anything other than he's just a black guy.

18:14

And then all of a sudden he takes his – he rips off his mask or whatever he had on and then he's a white guy the entire time.

18:24

And it was funny when it came out. It was surprisingly no one was really upset with it as far as I can remember.

18:32

But then now people are looking back at that and saying like, hey, this is an egregious thing that you've done.

18:39

And if that were to ever come out now, it's universally agreed that it would be condemned, right?

18:48

There was some SNL skit or something, I think, with Eddie Murphy doing the same thing where he basically put on whiteface, basically.

18:56

And he was basically making fun of – what was the world –

19:01

I can't remember how the sketch went, but it was something along the lines of him trying to experience life as a white person.

19:10

And so he basically put on the white makeup and then the banks are just throwing money at him and lending him all the money he wants.

19:19

And then every time they're all throwing a party everywhere they go. You know what the irony in that is?

19:27

The governments right now are desperately trying to do the – they're trying to give reparations.

19:34

San Francisco is trying to give every black person $5 million. And it's like, dude,

19:39

I never got $5 million. So there's a lot of things going on with that kind of thing in general.

19:51

And it's like part of the difference between men and women in general is that men kind of like to tease each other.

20:00

And one of the things that men do is we like to tease. And part of that is women aren't nearly as motivated to tease in the same kind of way.

20:12

And men do that in a way to kind of test each other a little bit. And so they'll pick – as a man, you'll pick at someone else.

20:21

And part of what you're doing is just seeing how do they handle criticism. And if a guy handles it well and if he jokes back at you, then you respect him.

20:32

You get his respect. But then if he just gets all sensitive about it and starts moping and fussing, you identify really quickly, oh, man, he's sensitive.

20:45

That guy is sensitive. He can't take a joke, right? And so then it affects the way you view him.

20:51

But, I mean, ladies don't really – they don't operate like that in the same kind of way. They don't tease each other in the main in order to test them.

21:00

And part of that is just men are designed to have courage and fortitude and to be thick -skinned and not to be thin -skinned and easily offended and everything else.

21:10

And so when you see a guy who can take a pick at you well, you respect him, right?

21:15

So if it doesn't get under your skin – but then in general, part of the way that the world works is that if you can laugh about things, it does – you know that there's not all these problems underneath the surface.

21:32

You know what I'm saying? So once the humor goes, then you know you're in trouble. And part of even how this works in the course of relationships with men and women is men, they have –

21:45

I know you're not allowed to talk about these kind of stereotypes in this way. But I mean like a lot of the ways that men try to win the heart of a woman is to get her to laugh.

21:56

And so like when you're in the courting stage, you're constantly cracking jokes and trying to get a girl to laugh at you.

22:03

But then once you get married, like there's a lot of ladies who like they really – they start really losing like their ability to joke anymore.

22:13

And what often happens is like that's just a sign that there's like a lot of problems, right?

22:19

So once you lose the ability to joke, like you can't joke anymore. You can't laugh anymore. Like it all turns into a problem.

22:25

Everything is like deathly serious. That's just like a sign that there's like a bunch of problems underneath the surface that are not being dealt with.

22:33

And the same thing is true in a society in general is that like a society can't laugh at each other.

22:39

Like if everything is going to be taken offense, then you know like that's a sign of like bitterness that's like pervaded that kind of society, that's pervaded that kind of discourse.

22:50

And it's like it's never like – it's not like a recipe for like friendship, right?

22:57

So like most friendships are like filled with like laughter and jokes and like people not taking themselves too seriously and people not like taking their relationship with each other too seriously.

23:07

And I mean like there is like a place for just like kind of like laughing at each other and teasing each other.

23:14

But then when people take it real sensitive and take it real serious and when you know that like anything can set this like thing off, right?

23:23

Like the situations you really don't like to go into are situations where you're walking on eggshells.

23:30

No offense can be taken at any point. And in those kinds of situations, like the last thing you're going to do is laugh, right?

23:38

The last thing you're going to do is laugh. The last thing you're going to do is joke. You're going to be serious. You're going to be on your best behavior. You're going to be tiptoeing around because you know that like there are so many unspoken rules.

23:47

And that's part of what's like the problem with like critical theory and the way that it sets up like the oppressor class and the oppressed class.

23:54

Like you have like, you know, people who go into like racial encounters and like you go into racial encounters expecting that like almost anything you do can be a source of offense.

24:07

And like that's just not a recipe for friendship. That's not a recipe for unity. That's just that's just a recipe for like, yeah, it's more divisive.

24:15

If anything, we're in trouble here, you know, like like it breeds division. Yeah. I mean, that's just it.

24:20

So. But yeah, I mean, in this whole, you know, Robinson D 'Angelo's thing, it's not whether or not racism occurs in any encounter is how does it manifest itself in any encounter?

24:29

And so, I mean, like you're the way critical theory trains you to go into racial interactions or ethnic interactions because races don't actually exist.

24:37

But the way you're trained to go into that is like it's not how racism will occur.

24:43

I mean, it's not if it will occur. It's how it will occur in any given encounter. And then the humor all goes.

24:49

Right. And so then you have like basically like you go into these kind of encounters knowing like you're you're going to you're going to give offense.

24:59

And there's all these different standards like there's double standards on how it relates to all of it.

25:04

And then you're like taking this like like normal like, hey, I we

25:10

I know we're friends like this kind of guy impulse. Like I know we're friends when we can joke joke with each other.

25:15

Right. And we can laugh at each other and we don't take each other too seriously. But when you make it to where it's impossible.

25:21

Right. It only goes one direction. So the way this relationship to work is you can pick at me and you can laugh at me all day long and I have to laugh back.

25:28

But then I can't pick at you. Right. I can't. Then that's just a sign for like we're in trouble.

25:34

Right. So with all that being said, you know, is it inherently wrong to, you know, appropriate someone else's culture?

25:48

I'm obviously not. I mean, First Corinthians 9 20 says to the Jews, I became a

25:53

Jew in order to win the Jews. There's a law, though, not myself being under the law that when those under the law, you know.

26:02

So, I mean, basically, I interpret that to mean like to the blacks. I put on blackface in order that I might win the blacks.

26:08

You view it as like you've got to become a sleeper cell agent. Hey, hey, what's up, fellow guy?

26:19

I'm just like you, but I believe in Jesus. Well, that's an unfortunate interpretation.

26:34

So, you know, that that verse is basically those verses are basically used in like pretty bizarre ways in general.

26:42

Right. So like they're used in pretty like meaning like, you know, like so to the tattoo, you know, to the gang bangers, you need to dress up like a gang banger in order to win and get all your tattoos and, you know, dress like him and everything else.

26:56

And like but then, you know, apparently like I'd love to see one of these woke people do this as it relates to the blacks.

27:07

It does. So there's limits. There's limits to the to the, you know, their missiology at that point.

27:14

But what is the question? You got yourself off with your. Yeah, the question was, is it inherently wrong?

27:22

Is it sinful? Is cultural appropriate? Yeah, I mean,

27:28

I think it I wouldn't say it would be inherently wrong. I think there's like I like it could be like meaning like there may be like not all cultures are neutral.

27:43

Right. So so so I'm going to say it may be, but not in the way that people think, like meaning like not all cultures are neutral.

27:50

And you shouldn't, you know, take take on the habit. Like you should be respectable.

27:56

You shouldn't take on the habits and the practice of like like the Aztec sacrifice that are hostile to God in that kind of way.

28:05

Yeah, I mean, so like, you know, and this part of like the missiology discussion where it's kind of bizarre.

28:10

Right. So you go into the nudist, you know, tribe and you become a nudist tribe.

28:16

Like no one takes that logic that far, but there's no reason why you shouldn't if that's what's being communicated there.

28:21

So I don't I think, you know, not all cultures are equal and not all cultures are equally honoring to God.

28:29

Not all cultural artifacts or symbols or expressions are good. So like you can so you can, you know, like, you know, as you're thinking through this topic, like there may be certain elements of doing that kind of thing that are very dishonorable.

28:49

I mean, when Rachel, you know, does all or whatever pretended to be a black person, I mean, there's obviously nothing like honorable to God about like lying about your ethnicity and pretending to be a different ethnicity, you know, for the whole life.

29:06

So like that could be like that was, you know, cultural appropriation or whatever. But the sin there is the sin of lying.

29:12

So there could be examples of things like that that are like wrong, like forms of cultural appropriation, but maybe not for the reasons possible reasons that are being said.

29:23

But then like the idea in general, like there shouldn't be some asymmetry. There shouldn't be any partiality, basically.

29:28

So like there shouldn't be. Yeah, there shouldn't be some asymmetrical standard. So whatever the rules are across the board should be the rules across the board.

29:36

So I mean, like if you're an actor, like we're just talking about this in the realm of acting in general, like obviously, like, you know, like when you're an actor, you're pretending to be something that you're not.

29:46

And there's no necessary like, like, like, you know, you can get outraged.

29:53

And like, like, you know, if if you're living in a predominantly, you know, white area or predominantly

29:59

Chinese area, then you know, your Chinese people are going to probably, you know, if they're going to act out certain historical scenes or whatever, right, they're probably going to have to get creative, right?

30:11

Like, and so like, there's not some sort of demand for like, what's happening is you have some sort of demand for equal representation across all ethnic lines.

30:20

And a lot of it is just about talent and everything else. So I mean, I get it, like, I get that, like, if you're intentionally overlooking actors of actresses of a certain ethnic group, you know, for the sake of, you know, turning every, like, you know, character who was a different ethnicity into a white kind of version of it or something.

30:42

I get that it's weird at a certain point. And it may be that you're showing partiality that way. But then, you know, acting is about like pretending to be something you're not in general, too.

30:51

So it's a little bit complicated. But I think the rules across the board are, we should take ourself a lot less seriously than what we do.

31:00

And so, you know, and we should get rid of a lot of the baggage that's keeping us bound to kind of this, like, hatred and, you know, bitterness and everything else.

31:12

And so a lot of the cultural, like, appropriation discussion is just kind of rooted in bitterness and rooted in, you know, just these permanent kind of, like, permanent postures of bitterness and viewing the world through the lens of power dynamics that need to go.

31:27

And so, yeah, I don't have any problem with, like, Eddie Murphy dressing up like a white person to experience the world as a white person.

31:33

I think that's kind of funny, you know. And so I think that everyone, I think that that should be able to be done in the opposite way and everyone would laugh at it.

31:40

And if we can't, like, if we can only laugh one direction. Right. Do you think there's any aspect of cultural appropriation that might be wrong, you know, because it's born out of, like, a wrong, like, motivation?

31:55

So, for example, you know, like, let's say, let's take the joking example, right, that you just said was fine.

32:04

Right. And let's say someone is, you know, whether they're white or black, whatever, it doesn't matter.

32:11

They're pretending to be, you know, a different ethnicity and they're, like, making, they're mocking the other ethnicity, but then it's not necessarily out of, like, a tongue in cheek kind of thing.

32:25

It's more out of, like, a, no, I just, I, you know, I hate this culture and I want to mock it.

32:31

Does that venture into a realm? Is there ever, you know, basically what

32:36

I'm asking, is there ever a realm to say, like, well, there, you know, it might be wrong for, like, not necessarily because the action is wrong, but then because the motivation is wrong or it might even be viewed as, like, hey, you're being, like, totally disrespectful.

32:55

You know, is that, like, a category in your mind? Yeah, so the original, like, idea of blackface, right?

33:05

Like, the reason why blackface, something like blackface is so offensive is because, like, in, you know, minstrel shows, essentially,

33:11

I mean, you had, you know, blacks who weren't allowed to be actors, right, or actresses.

33:16

And so then you would have, like, white people doing all the acting at that point.

33:22

And then when they were, you know, when they would, you know, put on blackface or whatever, they would, you know, basically their play acting as a black person, but then it's often in, like, you know, very exaggerated, stereotypical kind of condescending, even, like, portraying black people in kind of, like, a subhuman way in that way.

33:43

And so in that way, I mean, obviously, there's, like, if there's some attitude behind that, like, there's a lot that's wrong with that kind of arrangement that was wrong, right, with that kind of arrangement related to the motives and related to the tone and, you know, what's being had there and everything else.

34:05

And so, I mean, the Bible says that love is not irritable or rude, and we're all members of one human race. And so all the, like, the, you know, the, what is the right word?

34:20

All the Darwinism that's implicit in all that, scientific racism that's implicit in all that, and then just, like, the mocking, degrading, tearing down, it's not edifying, it's not, like, it's not good -natured.

34:37

It's pointed, right? So, yeah, I definitely think that you could do this in a way that is wrong, right, with wrong motives.

34:50

And so a lot of it does hinge upon motives. Now, I mean, like, if you were to mock, like, certain, like, now, another part of this, though, is to say, like, well, are you allowed to mock certain destructive cultures in that way, right?

35:08

And so, I mean, like, Key and Peele are obviously doing that, like, with, like, in different ways.

35:13

Like, so, I mean, like, there's no problem, like, mocking, like, slave -owning cultures, right? Like, there's no problem in, like, mocking, like, you know, the southern slaveholder kind of redneck kind of culture, like, that could be present.

35:32

I mean, you can imagine, like, mocking Nazi culture or something like that, right? Like, in the sense of, like, if you're – if you don't have to view all cultures as neutral, and there are some harmful, destructive, like, elements of them that you don't want to go back to, right, for instance, then – now,

35:51

I mean, I know, like, in different countries, they're outlaw any kind of joking, and even – you can't even, like, mention, like,

35:58

Nazis or something like that without getting fined or it's illegal or something like that. So, what

36:04

I'm trying to say is, like, I think that there are – like, part of this is a discussion of mockery and when is mockery appropriate and when is mockery not appropriate.

36:14

But there's certainly, like, another element of it, like, is do all cultures have to be praised equally?

36:21

And then there's, like, there are times and places where mocking is not edifying that.

36:29

But then you're essentially saying that they're not good because of the motivations behind them, not necessarily, like, the action itself.

36:39

Is that – am I understanding correctly? Like that.

37:05

And, I mean, like, so some of that is just, like – I mean, there are – like, whatever is happening with that, they're not intending to mock

37:12

Indians by dressing up as an Indian or something. Like, there's no attempt at mockery there, right?

37:19

Now, I mean, like, meaning, like, you're dressing up as, like – I mean, this is kind of what you do with Halloween, right?

37:26

You dress up as something that you're not – like, you're pretending to be something. Now, so a lot of, like, the

37:33

NFL, like the Washington Redskins kind of discussion, the

37:38

Seminoles and all that, like, a lot of it is, like, there's a cultural appropriation kind of discussion in all of that to where, like, all right, you're going to have an

37:47

Indian as your mascot. Aren't you turning your mascot into an animal or something like that? I mean, there's the

37:52

Dallas Cowboys, man. Like, Dallas Cowboys are not animals, you know?

37:59

So, Cowboys and Indians, like Cleveland Indians, like, what's the big deal? You know, so I think there's a part of it to where, like, you can imagine, like, the white girl dressing up as the

38:08

Indian in, like, a very – like, there's just nothing to it. Like, there's no mockery that's there.

38:13

There's no, like, dehumanizing anyone. There's nothing like that that's happening. It's just, like, simple

38:19

Halloween costume kind of discussion that's happening. And so – and then there's a way that you can just do so, just purely to tear down and to insult and to degrade.

38:31

But then what's happened is, you know, because you have to view the world through these power – like, through the lens of these power dynamics, then it's all viewed in the worst possible light from the start.

38:44

And so there's evil motives that are assumed that there's no way to kind of – people can just disentangle themselves from that in the minds of many people.

38:53

And so what's happening is, on the other side of this kind of discussion, we're – like, these are just – like, this world has just kind of functionally become a club that is being used to basically destroy people.

39:05

Yeah, you mentioned, like, people assuming the motives of others as they, you know, culturally appropriate.

39:16

I remember reading – this was probably a few years ago now, but I remember reading about a girl who decided –

39:24

I think she decided to wear, like, a – I can't remember what they're called, but like a – is it called, like, a kimono?

39:31

Do you know what I'm talking about, where it's, like, the Japanese sort of, like, robe, dress thing?

39:41

And she wore this to, like, prom or some kind of function like that.

39:47

And the pictures from the event – you know, she was a white girl wearing this stuff, and the pictures went viral because she was wearing the dress.

40:01

And so people, you know, people were getting frustrated. People who had never met her before, you know, who probably didn't even know her name, they were just assuming that she had the worst motivations possible for doing this, right?

40:16

And I think she came out and was like, hey, you know – I wish

40:22

I had looked it up, but it was either, like, she did actually have some kind of ties to Japan through her family, or it was like a, hey, no,

40:31

I just really respect the culture, and I wanted to honor it, you know, by wearing the, like, traditional garb that they would have worn.

40:42

And so that sounds, you know, totally fine. And it's even, like, honorable in a certain sense, if the idea is, like, hey, you know, there's another culture that I was not raised in that I see, and I see a lot of respectable aspects to it.

41:01

I want to learn about it. I want to honor it, because I think it is respectable.

41:09

And, you know, in my mind, that seems – I don't think this person was a Christian, but in my mind, that seems to line up, like, with a

41:15

Christian worldview that says, hey, treat others more significantly than yourself. You know, be someone who's marked by, you know, love and humility, not prideful.

41:27

And it really does kind of seem like, hey, look, I just want to honor another culture that I think is worthy of respect.

41:34

That seems like that would fall right in line with the Bible. Or not necessarily as, like, a requirement, but then as, like, a, you know, yeah, well, there's nothing wrong with that.

41:46

That's perfectly fine to do. And most people should probably view it not as, like, a negative thing, but at least as, like, a morally neutral thing, if not, like, a good thing in the sense of showing honor and respect towards your neighbor, right?

42:05

Yeah, I mean, I think there's, like, a very real – as you're thinking about this discussion, there's just – you have to take a step back and ask, like, what is the goal that we're trying to accomplish here?

42:16

And when you have so many double standards like this, it really does, like, hurt your brain to think, like, how am

42:22

I supposed to follow all the subjective arbitrary rules? So, if I – so, like, we're told to show reverse partiality along ethnic lines in these ways.

42:38

And so, I mean, how often do you go into a store now and you see, like, people wearing shirts saying this is a black -owned business or whatever else, right?

42:44

So, it's a black -owned business is where it has a mark of pride. And so, like, what are you supposed to do as a person who's not black, right?

42:51

Are you supposed to go in and support the business or not? So, if you do support the business, then what?

42:59

Like, now you've culturally appropriated, right? Because you're adopting the habits of practice, the customs of another group, right?

43:06

And so, I mean, it's the same thing with FUBU, right? Like, for us, by us. So, you have

43:12

African Americans making a brand of clothing for us, by us. If a white person were to buy that, then they're culturally appropriating because this is supposed to be just for us.

43:20

But then how do you, like, support them financially as a society if you have to constantly, like, take this posture that says,

43:28

I'm not like you, right? So, like, there's no – so, what's happening is you have, like, this direct kind of assault on unity, right?

43:36

So, I mean, in Galatians 3 .28, it's relevant here. I mean there's neither Jew nor Greek. There's neither slave nor free.

43:42

There's neither male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Like, there should be some impulse to say, hey, we're all members of one human race.

43:49

We're more alike than we are different. And, like, there shouldn't be this dividing wall of hostility that we're fundamentally at odds to where we all have to live and stay in our own little ghettos.

43:59

And so, like, there's like – this is like a racist kind of proposition in general that basically just says that in order to, like, be faithful,

44:05

I have to segregate myself into my own little ghetto and adopt only the practices of my, like, ethnic group, right?

44:16

And culture and customs. And so, like, you're beat up either way, right? So, like, if you're a white person, you actually do that.

44:22

You don't patronize any of these black -owned businesses anymore. You just patronize, like, members of your ethnic group, white people.

44:31

You adopt only habits and practices of your white group. You live in isolation, you know, like white flight, all that, right?

44:40

Like, you do all that. Then you're, like, formally, like, you're a racist if you do that, right? But then if you were to say, well, no,

44:46

I'm going to, like, I'm going to move the other way. I'm going to try to unify with you, right?

44:53

I'm going to adopt your cultural practices and habits. I'm going to listen to your music. I'm going to wear your clothes. Then you're culturally appropriating.

45:00

And so what that all tells you is, like, really, this isn't about – like, there's no good biblical goal here, right?

45:08

All it's about is, like, separation and division. There's no good goal that can be found here because, as Robin DiAngelo says, it's not whether or not racism occurs.

45:16

It's how does it occur in any given interaction. So, like, if you stay with your ethnic group, right?

45:23

Like, you refuse to intermarry. Like, you don't buy any of the food from those black -owned businesses.

45:29

You keep distinct. You keep separate. You're a racist. If you move, you know, just say, hey, we're, like, let's be unified.

45:37

Let's do this together, right? Then you're culturally appropriating. And this is just about power.

45:43

It's not really about – there's no good redeeming goal behind all the project in general. It's just about raw power.

45:49

It's just, like, once you divide that world up into oppressor and oppressed class of people, then this quote -unquote oppressed class of people, then they constantly just have a reason to have a chip on their shoulder and attack you either way, right?

46:03

And so this is why this fundamentally is – it's just a divisive project based on divisive assumptions that are designed to permanently keep people at odds and at war and at enmity with each other when really,

46:17

I mean, we're all members of the same human race. We shouldn't even be thinking in these terms.

46:24

And it's not like your culture, my culture, right? Those things are –

46:29

I mean, there's plenty of cultural elements that are neutral, and there's some cultural elements that are not, and you should be critical of the elements of your culture, right, of your ethnic group that are dishonoring to the

46:43

Lord, and you should get rid of those things. You shouldn't just sanctify them and ask everyone to praise them. And in the same sense, if there are other habits of other cultures that are honoring to God more than the habits of your – you should think about putting some of those things on, right, in order to be more faithful.

47:00

And so I think we can learn from different cultures, but you don't have to sanctify every culture, and then you don't have to keep them permanently separated.

47:08

And that's essentially what's happening with the cultural appropriation trend is basically just to say, like, just give us money.

47:17

Give us stuff. Leave us alone, right? Let us be separate, right? Give us all your money, right, but don't do anything – like just – and praise what we're doing.

47:26

So you have to like praise what they're doing, praise their culture, not take part in it in any way, right?

47:32

And then – but then the only way that that works is just kind of what they say is sell your house and give them money as like – just hand over money, hand over property, hand over assets, hand over jobs.

47:46

And it's just a recipe for destruction. But then it's to try and like take those cultures and essentially try and preserve them as they are right now and never change them in any way and never let there be any bleed over into any other separate culture.

48:37

It seems like that is – whether that's on purpose or not, it seems like that is one of the inevitable hypothetical goals of this kind of ideology.

48:48

But then I think if you're thinking that way, then you're pretty ignorant to like history in general and how cultures are formed because cultures are always – they're constantly changing.

49:03

They're constantly being modified and maybe in some ways that's slowed down as we've kind of reached a point where countries aren't necessarily like conquering each other in the same way that they were throughout the majority of human history.

49:20

But then, you know, like where do you think African -Americans got their culture from?

49:27

It was a mix of where they came from along with like southern white culture, right?

49:34

I mean, there were no black people that were – there are no black people cooking grits in Africa, right?

49:40

But then grits is sort of – that's like a – I mean, it's a southern food, but then it's something – it's put in the category of like soul food, which is typically something that black people really excel at making and do a lot better than white people.

49:57

They weren't – yeah, I'm allowed to say this. I have

50:03

CRT immunity. But like they weren't playing jazz in Africa, right?

50:09

And it's the same – and it's not just African -Americans. It's everyone. I mean, where did the

50:15

Romans get a lot of their cultural ideas from? From Greece when they – right.

50:22

This is just like the normal – like culture changes as countries change, right?

50:28

And so as countries take on – as they conquer other people like we've been talking about, as immoral things happen like kidnapping and man stealing in terms of the transatlantic slave trade, and even good things.

50:44

I mean, like when you look at the foundation of our country, what was happening was people from all over Europe were coming.

50:53

They're immigrating to America and bringing their culture in. And that's why they referred to the

51:00

U .S. as a cultural melting pot, right? It's because you had all these different people coming together, living in close proximity.

51:08

And then just inevitably their cultures sort of merged together in various ways. So to try and take like a current snapshot of culture and say, this is what it is.

51:21

I've got mine. You've got yours. I can do whatever I want with yours because you're the one in power.

51:27

But then you can't touch mine. I mean, I think that's just kind of an ignorant sort of – like it's going to change, dude.

51:38

It's going to change. I mean, I think part of the point that you're making, this very significant point, is the fact that we should be learning from other cultures and growing from other cultures.

51:50

And there's improvement. Like we can improve. If you don't have to just – like everyone – this is why it's fundamentally just a racist kind of ideology in general.

52:02

Is the goal really that everyone just stay in their uniquely preserved ghetto? That's the point.

52:08

No pun intended. Whatever flaws it has, those are what it needs to have because that's what it is right now.

52:18

Right. So whatever flaws it has, you have to praise those flaws too, right?

52:24

And you have to – and then you have to keep those separate. But then like when cultures mix together, like you do advance in certain ways too.

52:35

Just like when people mix together, every culture has strengths and weaknesses and everything else.

52:41

And so – and you develop new things, right? When you mix together certain traits from certain – one culture and another.

52:48

So like these are – ultimately, like you have a very – you have the definition of segregation.

52:54

That basically is like it's okay in one direction and then wrong in another direction. Right. Yeah. But then it's confusing.

53:01

Tim, do you have anything else that you want to say before we wrap it up here? Yeah. I think with the idea of like cultural appropriation,

53:11

I think like motive matters. And so what – everything that we should be doing,

53:17

I will say, is we should be doing to build up. And like it should be done for edification.

53:22

It should be done to build people up. And the Bible has a lot to say about unity and being one in Christ.

53:31

And as you're thinking about these kind of things, you're thinking about this topic of cultural appropriation in general. Issues of partiality, issues of unity, issues of edification, all those things come to the forefront.

53:46

So I don't think there's any simple answer to this question. But in general, the idea of cultural appropriation, because it's built on partiality, it is kind of a made -up sin.

53:57

And really like the way to think it through is like partiality is bad. Division is bad, right?

54:04

Like in terms of like you can mock people in a way that is like totally not edifying and not building up and has no redemptive purpose.

54:13

And so the primary issue though is one of motive in that way. And we should reject this like viewing the world through power dynamics as like an all -purpose excuse just to have permanent betterness.

54:25

Right. Okay. Fair enough. Well, like always, guys, we appreciate all the support that you guys give us and helping us to continue on in the podcast, whether that be financial or reaching out to us.

54:38

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54:55

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55:07

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55:15

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55:21

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55:30

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