My Interview on Wretched Radio about Harold Camping

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:11

We are two days away from being raptured out of here, unless of course you're not a millenialist then don't worry about a thing.

00:22

This is Wretched Radio. Over 3 ,000 billboards have been placed in the

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United States and internationally. Oh great, the shame is everywhere. Claiming that May 21st,

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Saturday at about 6pm, give or take, those people who basically are in Harold Camping's organization, they will go flying in the sky to the by and by, but those of us who are in a church will not.

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Taking a more in -depth look at the man known as Harold Camping, how does a fellow who started out reformed and orthodox go on to be a man who is predicting now for the second time the end of the world, mangling scripture.

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Honestly, this is worse than Red Bastine putting the figure four leg lock on George Scrapiron Gdanski.

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I'm telling you, the Bible is just getting mangled by this guy.

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Joining us to help us understand this fellow, and quite honestly, I think there are some lessons that we can learn from Harold Camping.

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That's right, there are some things that we can learn from people who make false prophecies. From Alpha and Omega Ministries, the man, the myth, the bow tie.

01:47

Dr. James White, thanks for being with us sir, how are you doing today? Well, thank you for calling Mr. Friel, may we take our next caller on Wretched Radio.

01:58

Alright, I listened to your presentation on Harold Camping at AOMin .org, great website you got to go.

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It's very helpful if you are dealing with a Mormon, a Roman Catholic. I don't know that many people besides James White who do such in -depth studying and preparation for debates.

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And so you'll find a lot of great apologetics helps there. And James, you took the time, and it had to be painful to listen to a lot of Harold Camping's sermon.

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I'm going to tell you something, listening to him while riding a bike is the best way to go slow in the world. It's incredible, but I just don't understand

02:34

Todd, you don't seem to believe this. I mean, everybody knows, if you just read the Bible, because it's right in the

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Bible, that Noah's flood was in 4990 BC. And everybody knows that Genesis 7 -4 says that in yet 7 days he will cause rain upon the earth to cause destruction.

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We know that Peter said that one day is a thousand years, a thousand years is a day. So 7 days, 7 ,000 years, 7 ,000 years from 4990 comes out to May 21st, 2011.

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You're not even kidding. No, no, no, no, in fact, that's just the beginning of the many, many proofs that Mr.

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Camping has presented. Because remember, Jesus died April 1st, AD 33. And that was 722 ,500 days from May 21st.

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And so what you do is you need to realize 722 ,500 is 850 times 850.

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And 850 is 5 times 10 times 17. 5 is the number for the atonement, everybody knows that.

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10 is the number of completion, everybody knows that. 17 is the number for heaven, everybody knows that. And you repeat it to make sure that it's certain, and therefore you have clear evidence that that's the end of the church age, and that's the length of the church age, and therefore again,

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May 21st, 2011. How could you not understand these things? Okay, now really, in all seriousness, if you're listening to this and you're going,

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Why does Wretched Radio have a guy who's on crack explaining this silliness, this numerology of names?

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The tragedy is that is exactly what you described is the way that Harold Camping came to the conclusion that May 21st, 2011 is the last day for those who are following him.

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Hey, what I just gave you is exactly what he did in the second day of our debate. Unbelievable.

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It's just absolutely unbelievable. Now, let's do our best, now I know that this is a stretch for you and I, James, but let's practice some sensitivity here perhaps for the people who are following this guy.

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How could people buy this? Well, you've got to understand, this is a part of a complex of beliefs, and Campingites in general are really interesting people.

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Let's keep something in mind. These folks left the churches years ago, and so they've already abandoned that, and they want to have something, it's almost a

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Gnostic impulse to have a special insight into things, and Harold Camping is the man who provides that.

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In the process, they end up believing, for example, an incipient form of modalism, they believe Jesus died twice, did you know that?

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Wait, wait, just stop, you're going too fast. Now, modalism... Going too fast for you? Alright, what did you do with Todd Friel?

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I just wanted to make sure we could all keep up with your terms here, Mr. Sparty Bridges. Modalism would be a heresy that, well, we could call it

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Sabellianism, where God is one manifesting as three different manifestations, but not three distinct persons, one

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God. I did not know that he taught that, sir. Well, see, he doesn't understand those things. That's the thing that's amazing about Camping, even though he's been on the radio for 50 some odd years,

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I have heard him identifying Christ as the Father. Then when you push him on that, well, there are three divine persons, but then he goes back to saying, but they're all just one, and he doesn't understand this.

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In fact, just yesterday, I was listening to Open Forum, and he had a caller call in about 1 Corinthians 15, 28, and his response was,

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I don't understand this, my little mind can't understand this, which is a simple text about the relationship of the

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Father and the Son, the subjection of the Father to God and the future, and so on and so forth. He wouldn't even touch it with a 10 -foot pole, and two callers later, he's telling people that there's nothing in the

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Bible that has more clear evidence than May 21, 2011. So he's very clear on his pet theories when it comes to something like the

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Trinity, or the relationship of the Father and the Son, oh, I don't know. That's Harold Camping. Now let's just back up for a second, too, because we heard you just blew right by it, but this might be one of the lessons for us.

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People that are following him, is that what they're called, Campingites? Well, that's what we've been, I've been on this since 2001, so I've got a decade of this, and yeah, that's what

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I call them. Okay, so the Campingites, they have left the

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Church, and they're following this guy. There's a lesson to be learned, that if we are not underneath authority, if we're not in a good, solid local church, we too might find ourselves following somebody who is mangling the

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Scriptures. Well, remember something, Todd. Harold started off in the Church. Then in 1988, he started doing more and more of this numerology stuff, more and more of this odd way of interpreting the

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Bible, and the CRC basically said, you need to stop teaching, and it's very interesting that in his current teaching, he says the

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Holy Spirit left the Church at the exact same time he got kicked out of his local church for teaching what he's teaching now.

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Isn't that interesting, that it would take place? Well, he never went back underneath anybody's authority in a local church, did he?

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Right, right, exactly right. Now, it's interesting, he has that little fellowship that looks very much like a church, but it's not a church.

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The other thing that he does, but keeping in mind that he was a civil engineer, which maybe is where all this numerology comes from, another error in the

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Harold Camping hermeneutic is his allegorical approach to Scripture. Oh yes, oh yes.

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That's the essence of all of it. That has been his problem from the start.

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As far as I can tell from talking to people who have known him for years and years and years and years, he's never been able to handle exegesis, the text of Scripture.

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He's always had this allegorical perspective. And in our debate, he specifically attacked the concept of historical grammatical interpretation.

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Jesus always spoke in parables. Everything is a parable, according to Harold Camping.

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Wow. Okay, so give us... Now, this is difficult, because if you listen to Harold Camping, you think,

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James, you think I go down rabbit trail? Well, you are the... You owe me an apology, mister.

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You are the awesome example of the ADHD preacher, because as soon as an illustration strikes your mind, away he goes, and you sort of wonder, has he ever come back?

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At least we try to come back to the original point. Harold Camping, it's like he loves to go a -wandering, and he puts on his little boots, and away he goes, and he never comes back.

08:51

Or, as you rightly stated in your presentation at aomin .org, you make a point, go wandering away before substantiating the point, and then return to the point by saying, and as we've seen...

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Yes. But he never really made the point or supported the point. Exactly, and since he's the one who is in your position right now, that is, you've got your finger on the button, since he's the one with his finger on the button, no one can ever really get into any kind of a dialogue, ever really seriously challenge him on open forum, because if he doesn't want to hear what you have to say, you're gone, and he says, thank you for calling and sharing, may we take the next call, and he's on from there.

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And he has total and complete control up until tomorrow night. And after that,

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I don't know what's going to happen at Family Radio, I'll be perfect honest with you. Well, I'm going to just make,

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I'm going to... A big radio company is going to buy it. You want to bet? It's a real possibility.

09:50

All right, on the telephone with James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, James, is it fair to call

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Harold Camping and the Camping Heights a cult? Oh, we have right now a historic opportunity of seeing what it was like in April of 1830 when

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Joseph Smith founded Mormonism. That's what we have here. Now, whether it will ever lead to anything, there has to be a strong second generation leader.

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I don't see a strong second generation leader. But remember, Harold Camping already went through this once in 1994.

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Yeah, he had a question mark at the end, but he already went through this once. There were people renting biplanes to fly over Jones Beach on Long Island with flyers warning people about September of 1994.

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He's already been through this once. Now, he's 89 years old. I think this is the last hurrah, but there is an incipient movement here.

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And remember, Edward Miller, 1844, he had the same thing going on, people waiting on mountainsides, this coming of Christ, and that ended up leading to two major groups that we still deal with today, the

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Seventh -day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses. So I don't know what the future is going to hold here.

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I don't know what's coming down the road. But, yes, you better believe what we're dealing with here is exactly the same kind of thing you're dealing with with Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, LNG.

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It doesn't matter. This is what you have with Harold Camping, no question about it. Okay, so cult, because sometimes cult, there's different markers for what makes a cult.

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Theologically, what would make Harold Camping and the Campingites? By the way, I think there might have been a group in the 50s.

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What makes them a cult, theologically? Fundamentally, it is the ultimate authority of Harold Camping as the interpreter of Scripture.

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He always says, I only go by the Bible. But, of course, he determines what the rules of interpretation for the

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Bible are. Aren't they orthodox, though, in the essentials? No, they're not. Because, for example, let's talk about the gospel.

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You mentioned it in your opening comments, and you're exactly right about this. You and I may confess faith in Jesus Christ.

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We may reject all forms of work, salvation, and everything else. But we ain't going anyplace tomorrow for one simple reason.

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We don't accept May 21, 2011. Now, you tell me what adding an acceptance of a particular date for the rapture is to the gospel itself.

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We're going to hell because we reject an unbiblical conclusion by Harold Camping.

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Is that not a violation of the very essence of what the gospel message itself is?

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Okay, so let's say that they're adding that. Do they have the gospel right at all?

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Well, no, because what you've got, and this is what's weird to folks like us. This is what I think has drawn his attention to a lot of us who are

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Reformed. And that is, he came out of a Reformed background. He still uses

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Reformed language. He talks about the elect. He talks about God's sovereignty. He talks about God's freedom. But he even identifies faith as a work.

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And hence, he says no church is preaching the true gospel. It is interesting, just over the past couple of years, he's abandoned total depravity.

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But he still has this idea that even saying that someone must have faith and repent, that that in and of itself is an addition of a work.

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All you can do is cry out to God for mercy. That's all you can do, and just hope that maybe it is.

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Because that's all I've been able to see. I've been scouring just a little bit, not nearly as much as you have, sir.

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When I look for the gospel, I keep looking and looking. And what is the correct gospel call? What is the correct gospel response?

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I kind of get just bleh. I don't see anything. Maybe call out to God, and if you happen to be one of the elect, then perhaps he will save you.

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But it is such a hash of a gospel presentation, you would almost have to think either the man doesn't know the gospel, or he knows the true gospel and he rejects it.

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Well, I don't know what's going on in the mind of Harold Camping. People say, well, he's 89 years old, he's obviously just lost it.

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That's not the case. No one who has the kind of memory that Harold has, and his ability to go to texts of scripture and do this and that, no,

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I totally reject that there's anything going on there. I think what we have here is this man sits for an hour and a half every day, minimally, five days a week, and people call up, and they treat him like their guru.

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He is the one they go to for their answers. And he has experienced that for so long that he is beyond correction.

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There have been many godly men who have tried to come to him and have tried to bring correction, have tried to warn. He rejects all of that stuff.

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There is a level of settled arrogance in Harold Camping that is truly astounding.

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And the results, Todd, I don't know if you heard the NPR shows that they did on this, but the devastation in the lives of his followers that is coming next week is absolutely amazing.

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In fact, there's a church, it's a Calvary Bible Church in Milpitas, California.

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They're actually doing an outreach to the followers of Harold Camping because they're concerned the people who have perhaps sold their things, given them away in preparation for Saturday, might be suicidal.

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Well, let's go after Harold Camping and his teachings. We've got some people here who could be in big danger for a lot of reasons.

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All right, James, as always, you the man, aomin .org, aomin .org.

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Thank you, sir. Bow tie on. Hey, thanks, man. God bless. See you. James White, who knows whereof he speaks.

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Let me tell you something. If anybody's done research on Harold, it has been James White. Harold, disaster.

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Now the people we've got to be worried about is followers. This is