The Deen Show

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is The Dividing Line.

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. Well, one thing I discovered today is that being a grandfather does not make bad

Islamic arguments sound any better than they did before. I was sent a link to a new

Dean show and I've come to the conclusion that, you know, when

I first started listening to stuff on the Dean show, I was like, you know, that Eddie guy seems like a cool guy and I'd love to have a chance to talk to him and, you know, really educate him about the issues because he's just so ignorant of these things.

I don't think he's ignorant of these things anymore. It's, you know, when you've had so many people on that are just so completely clueless as to what their alleged form of faith was after a while, it's just like,

I think this is probably pretty purposeful on their part, actually. But I've got a thing queued up here of a fellow who, this is a description, an aspiring

Christian Baptist minister meets Muslim in a bar and learns Islam. I guess you've got to try and make it sound interesting.

We don't generally try to do that with our descriptions of the dividing line, but we'll find out a little bit more about the aspiring

Christian Baptist minister here in a moment. I'm a little bit more awake today because, well, mom and baby stayed in the birthing center last night, so it was still nice and quiet at home, actually.

But yeah, finally, I don't think my I've been getting all these congratulations and stuff.

Why does a grandfather get congratulations? I didn't I didn't do anything. Now, my wife worked hard.

My wife was was with her most of the time. But, you know, my wife always went to labor at least a month early and just skipped all the last month of weight gain and misery and got him out about eight hours from beginning to end.

Boom. Forty four hours between the onset of contractions and the delivery of little

Clementine last evening at seven thirty. Forty four hours. Oh, good grief.

And at some point, I guess she was talking about adoption in the future.

I can understand. I can understand that. But anyways.

That's quite an experience and haven't had a chance to see her yet today, but I'm the one with the car seat, so I will be seeing her in a little while after the program to go pick him up and head him on home.

So that'll be exciting. Not related in any way, shape or form, but the

Christian Institute has an article today that's just. The Europeans, which is sadly where the socialists in our country want to be, you know, there's socialists in our country.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. There's an entire there's an entire political party that just changed its name to Socialist Party.

But anyway, Belgium considering extending euthanasia law to children.

Belgium is considering allowing children and Alzheimer's sufferers to ask to be euthanized.

The proposed changes to the country's decade old law were submitted to Parliament on Tuesday by the

Socialist Party. The draft legislation calls for, quote, the law to be extended to minors if they are capable of discernment or affected by an incurable illness or suffering that we cannot alleviate.

Belgium was the second country in the world after the Netherlands to legalize euthanasia, but applies to people over the age of 18.

The European Institute of Bioethics has already criticized the current law in Belgium in a report reviewing 10 years of euthanasia.

In the country, Dr. Peter Saunders, director of campaign group Care Not Killing, warn in response to report the lessons are clear.

Once you relax the law on euthanasia or assisted suicide, steady extension will follow as night follows day.

Now, I just I I just don't understand it.

I do not understand it. Why what do you mean? Extend euthanasia to someone under the age of 18.

Calls the law to be extended to minors if they are capable of discernment, who gets to judge that?

So you've got a 14 year old that's capable of discernment and says, my life stinks, kill me. And you can do that legally, is that what they're promoting?

Well, I guess it's the logical extension of the culture of death, there is no transcendent meaning to life.

And if you feel you're just, you know, hey, I I don't want my carbon footprint to continue.

And there you go, it's all over with. I don't even know what to say outside of this is what happens when the culture of death becomes the predominant element in a culture and takes over the educational system.

And then the next generation and the next generation, the next generation have been soaked in this kind of of thought, this kind of thinking.

That they can actually propose this kind of thing and look at you like, what? We're the cultural elite, you should you should follow us, we will we will give you guidance.

And they don't even realize that they've so devalued humanity, it's it's it's disgusting.

We need to get the sound clip from that early Star Trek episode where, no, I guess it was start the second generation, the next generation where the guys hijacked

Geordi. We're smart. Oh, yes, yes, yes. We need to get that clip and be able to play it for stuff like this.

They're called, I'm going to prove myself a Trekkie here, they're called Paklets. Yes. And we need to be able to play those guys every time stuff like this comes up.

We're smart. You need to listen to us. Well, that's not really how they said it. I know. I know. But you get the idea.

We yeah, we could come up with something. We make things go. Yeah, we yeah, we make things go. That's what it is.

Those are the Paklets. And that was a very politically incorrect episode, actually. And it demonstrated you don't have to be really smart to be rather devious and underhanded and mean at the same time.

I'm sure that we probably have some people in channel. Yeah, we look for things. See, Scott, Scott, I was about to say we probably have people in channel who would have the the the sound clips that we could we could use for that.

We look for things, things that make things go. We make things go. Yeah, it's something along those lines. Yes. And thankfully,

Geordi was a smart guy. And they out out. I'll smart at them at the end, but anyways.

Yeah, there you got Belgium. It does seem that northern Europeans need a little more sun because there's things just things to make us go.

You do wonder how they got into space, but that's another issue. We won't let us not begin a discussion of the possible social implications of of certain

Star Trek Next Generation episodes. That would be extremely inappropriate to pursue that whatsoever.

Eight, seven, seven, seven, five, three, three, three, four, one. As I as I mentioned, and I forgot to give this up because someone repost in channel because I put this name out and I put the guy's name in channel before I left the house, but I forgot to grab it.

I was in here. If someone could be so kind as to repost the name of the fellow on the

Dean show, that would be very kind. It's it's a Khalil something.

I saw it looked interesting that you had an aspiring

Baptist, no, no, what's a what is an aspiring Baptist minister? I would assume that that is a person who has undergone significant training.

Khalil Meek. Thank you very much. Whatever. Turretin got half of it, but whatever. Khalil Meek is his name.

He's one of the board members of the Muslim Defense Fund, Muslim Legal Defense Fund.

Yeah, that's what it is. And so I would think that the description of aspiring

Baptist minister would be someone who is at least in seminary. You know, was was on the road to being trained, had extensive experience in the church, things like that.

You start listening to this guy. Well, here, let me let me let me just play you just a brief clip.

Here's here's the depth of this man's analysis of what the

Bible teaches about Jesus. In regards to the deity of Christ, check, check this out.

Well, as I was doing my research and it basically it boiled back down to the same question that I posed beginning of my

Muslim friend, instead of him being a confused Christian, maybe I was a confused Muslim. And if my my search at that point came down to is

Jesus God or not, that was it. You might. Is he God or not? If he's God, then I'm a Christian.

If he's not, I'm a Muslim. Simple. That was it. And so as I wanted to focus on that issue, what

I started to see is Jesus speaking to me from the Bible in his own words, not what

I heard from the the minister, not what I heard in Sunday school, not the theology. I wanted

Jesus to tell me who he is, where he came, what he did, so I could see if Jesus is telling me he's

God or if he says something different. And when I start looking at Jesus and what he said in the

Bible, he said, the father's greater than I. I have my known self do nothing. Why call us me good? There's none good.

But the father, our father, who art in heaven, even on the cross, he says, my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

So I start to hear Jesus telling me he's not God. So there you go. That's Jesus telling us he's not

God. Now, of course, you heard one miscitation. Jesus did not say no one is good, but the father, he said, no one is good but God.

But I mean, these are the simplest, most basic, the kids in my in the sixth grade class at church could respond to these things type questions.

And this is an aspiring Baptist minister saying these things. He didn't have a response to these things.

But by the time we got to this, I already knew the answer to all this. And remember, this is the

Dean show. This is the show that features all sorts of alleged ex -Christians and tries to make them sound like they were just, you know, top flight folks.

Most of them were either liberal nutcases or youth ministers at the best. Yeah. So what's this guy's actual story?

Well, he was he was raised as a Baptist. But then when he left home to go to college, he went nuts and he just started living like the world.

And his senior year in college, he decided to get serious. And he decided that the best way to get serious was to become a

Baptist minister. And so he started talking to people about religion. And became a

Muslim, never went to seminary, had zero training. And when he starts talking about, well, you know,

I decided I needed to start looking into I need to convince people the Bible was the word of God. You know,

I found out we don't even know who wrote most of it. Wow. Really? You thought we had names and telephone numbers, huh?

I mean, the man was just as ignorant as the day is long. This was no aspiring

Baptist minister. This was a wild college kid.

Who had given thought to going to seminary. That was it. That's it.

That's all there is to it. Nothing more. And yet people are sitting there going, wow, man, see, we've got all the answers.

Listen, wow. And you just you're just you're going, really? You really this is this is what

Islam has to offer. You guys have got to think about this. I realize I get the feeling that Eddie and the folks at Dean show, they don't care.

When someone like me exposes this kind of silliness, they don't care. They only have one audience.

They're not interested in converting real Christians. They are interested in exciting their their folks, their target audience, which is primarily

Muslims. And they are interested in maybe the ultra confused nominal

Christian. Who is, you know, doesn't know anything, maybe interest there, but there is no interest whatsoever in actually interacting honestly with integrity, with depth, with the best that Christianity has to offer.

No, no interest at all. And unfortunately, I see a lot of that and it really makes me wonder.

When when the majority of folks, well, you know, you go, yeah, well, look at all the look at all the charlatans in Christianity.

Well, OK, but what I don't see. Are individuals who are looking at.

These types of folks in Islam and saying, oh, they are charlatans, see, we look at our charlatans,

I hate to use term our, but the people who claim to Christians, we go, that guy isn't what he claims to be.

But that doesn't work in Islam because these guys have said the Shahada. And so how do you say, hey, you folks are are completely off base.

You're not even truly Muslim. It doesn't seem that that they do that. So the arguments that were put forth in this in this section, in this program, were absolutely horrific, just unbelievably bad.

Very, very surface level. And I'm looking for maybe someone will track down for me the information, but I would like to get hold of this fellow because he says he loves to do debates.

And he says that it's clear as can be that Muhammad is prophesied in the

Bible. And I would just really, really like to have the opportunity of engaging that subject.

Of course, I'd love to do on the Dean Show, but that ain't happening because Dean Show is not really interested in that kind of dialogue.

They're only interested in one side and not in allowing both sides in any way.

So I may go ahead and I may go ahead and embed the episode from YouTube because one thing's for certain.

If this guy is telling the truth that he was raised in a Baptist church in the

South, at least that's what sounded like he indicated, here is living proof of why we have to do a much better job in educating our folks.

I mean, I have there's some guy sitting right now, I think in North Carolina, listening to me and he's recording all this, just waiting for me to say something about the

Southern Baptist Convention. Literally, there is a guy who records all the programs and then he puts together clips of anything

I say about the Southern Baptist Convention. And he'll probably put this together, too. And then he uses it for his own nefarious purposes, let's say that.

And I just simply say to that person, I pity you. I really do pity you. You really need to get a life.

But anyways, there are people like that. And when I point out the fact that, for example,

I've told the story many times when I was a senior in high school in a Southern Baptist church, I and a couple other people were like, could we please do something serious in Bible study?

Could we could we really look at the background of a book or just do something where we actually learn something?

Could we please? This this stuff from from the the convention for for young people is just problem.

It's it's there's nothing to it. We knew this stuff when we were six years old.

Can't we move on from here? And basically we were told no, because that might make other people feel uncomfortable.

And so there you go. That kind of mindset is what produces people like this, it produces wonderful converts to other religions.

You can all look back and say, well, when I was a Baptist, we didn't know that some of the books of the

Bible that we didn't know who wrote, we didn't know that. And then somebody came along, showed me that now

I'm an atheist. I've talked to these folks. You can't you can't refute that.

You cannot argue with the fact that, yep, that's what happens. That's what happens. And it's a shame.

We have to be preparing our people. We have to be preparing our people to deal with an ever more aggressively anti -Christian culture.

And that means. Unlike preceding generations, we need to know more about where the

Bible came from, the nature of the Bible, the issue of, you know, especially Muslims, you know, why you need to know who wrote everything in there.

Mohammed didn't know. Mohammed didn't know who wrote the Torah and the Injil. He evidently thought that only

Jesus wrote the the Injil and only Moses wrote the Torah. That seemingly is how he understood things.

But there you go, there's there's a bit of a problem with that. But anyways, this this episode, excellent example of of why it is that we have to just have to prepare our people and make sure that we don't skip the difficult things.

Don't don't skip. Don't skip the fact that there's differences between the Greek Septuagint and the Hebrew text.

Discuss them. Get into it. Got to do it. Just cannot skip this type of stuff. So I may I may go ahead and link to that so you can watch it for yourself, because honestly, there is nothing in this entire presentation even begins to challenge even the most semi literate

Christian really isn't because that's why I don't have any problem linking to it or even posting it is because it's like, you see this?

This is supposed to be an apologetic. This is supposed to be an argument against our faith. And when you see how bad the arguments are, it does make you wonder a little bit about people who would go, wow, that's great.

That's that's that's exciting stuff. 877 -753 -3341 is the phone number.

And I will get back to the Sammy, the toddy stuff and the Paul Williams stuff.

And there's just so much I wish I had more time, but I may have less time in the future, at least for a while.

Who knows? You know, grandparents make for wonderful babysitters. They really, really do. And I'm not sure, at least for a while,

Clementine probably wouldn't notice if I had earphones in my ears, even though after a while she'll be reaching up and and grabbing everything and pulling in my goatee.

I'm going to have to maybe trim it back just a little bit, because I remember I remember

Josh. I remember Josh. I remember I remember Clementine's mommy liked liked beards.

And man, once they got to about six months, they can grab ahold of that and they can pull hard. That was that was fun.

They liked like dad's beard back then. But now it's a gray, no, white, white goatee.

I'd say this isn't gray anymore, is it? That's that's white, man. That's that's just that's. Yeah, I know,

I wish I didn't. I'd love to. I wish it was all just white. I wish I wish this thing would would just go white.

It's it's getting whiter, but I wish it just all go white because I don't like the two tone thing. I like I like the white.

That's. I've earned it. So anyways, let's get to the phone calls.

Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number.

And let's go back to Florida and talk to Chris. Hi, Chris. I'm sorry.

How are you, sir? Can barely hear you. Go ahead. Sort of.

But it sounds like you're on the phone from nineteen eighty four. Oh, no, I don't know why it sounds that way.

OK, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was actually one of the people that you were doing something on a game show.

I was just listening to the Wayback Machine and you were on the episode rebutting

Dr. Brown. Yes. That last year. Yeah. Yeah, I heard that. So it's pretty, pretty interesting.

Also, I wanted to say really quickly, your grandfather, which, congratulations. I was listening to the

Wayback Machine back in ninety nine and you had your kids on. Yes. And I was really blessed by that.

And I was kind of convicted that maybe I should be teaching my kids. And my daughter's only four.

And I've been doing catechism with her every night and going through the Westminster Concession Estates and kind of like, you know, making the statements a little simpler for her understanding.

She's been doing terrific. And I've just been blessed. So I thought you would like to hear that. Well, I know there's a catechism for kids.

I know that I think Spurgeon had one as well. It's used at our church. So there are some simplified versions.

But yes, that's the way to do it. Yeah, it's been a blessing. But to my question,

I had a couple of questions on the Gregory Stafford debate.

I listened to it a few times. I purchased it and I loved it. But I had a couple of questions that you don't really get the chance to answer because it was in the question and answer session.

And I think on this question, he mentioned something in Colossians 115 about the

Greek word ekstista in the passive form. And so basically that Jesus was used instrumentally,

I guess, is what his implication was. I was wondering if you can touch on that for me. I think you mean verse 16, ekstista, for by him were all things made.

That's I assume that an Arian would be saying, well, he's the he's merely an instrument of creation.

The problem, of course, is that Paul's argument and we may need to pot you down there a second because it sounded really bad.

Paul's argument is that this one is the icon to the you, the image of the invisible

God, the prototype of the firstborn of all creation. He's trying to make it first created.

That's not what prototype means. It means the one ruling over the one having preeminence over. And he's the icon to the you.

He's the one who reveals God. So the idea that what you have in verse 16 is a creature who is merely the instrument by which

Toponta comes into existence, again, just demonstrates the overriding tradition that is being read into the text.

Anyone who read this, because by him were all things created. Well, if I say by God, all things were created, am

I somehow saying that God is not the creator? Of course not. And then when I make it extensive to all things, and then

I say Toponta di autu, Kai ais auton ectistai, all things were made through him and for him.

And he is before all things and all things hold together or consist or cohere in him.

What other language would I have to use to express the fact that this is the creator himself?

Now, Paul distinguishes between the roles of the father and the son in creation as he distinguishes between the roles of the father and the son in the revelation of God.

I mean, it's the father who is revealed by the son, not the son who's revealed by the father. So we recognize that the persons in the

Trinity take different roles. And therefore, that's the only reason we can distinguish between them is because not only the economic

Trinity, but then the roles they have there toward one another as well. The son being the revealer of the father, not the other way around.

And so to say, well, it's passive and therefore that somehow means Jesus is lesser, assumes that there can be a created creator, this henotheistic system that Stafford has developed where you've got this true

God who isn't really a true God, but is sort of a true God and is in between someplace, which is probably why he's not one of Jehovah's Witnesses anymore and has gone off and started his own cult.

But there is just nothing that I can see that would be relevant to the idea that, well, since this is in this particular form, that somehow, in some way, indicates that he is somehow lesser.

I mean, does the fact that synestechan in verse 17 is not in the passive, all things, it's a perfect whole together in him, does that somehow mean something?

No, it's just simply the mechanism by which he expressed himself. I see. So basically, you would just appeal to the entire argument that Paul is trying to make.

And basically, the fact that, I guess it's expistate, the fact that it's passive is relevant because of the argument, basically, is what you're saying?

Well, see, any act of exegesis, cultic exegesis normally goes backwards.

And that's the problem with Mr. Stafford. While he has done a lot of self -study, it's only in one area.

And as a result, you do not have balanced translation and meaningful

Greek scholarship coming from him, no matter how long he's going to take to do it.

He's already demonstrated that in his work. And what you have in cultic interpretation of scripture is you go, or just amateurish interpretation as well, unfortunately you see a lot of sermons, is you will look at words isolated from their context.

This is how, well, for example, people will look up a word in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and they'll go chasing it through the scriptures based upon the

King James translation of it and come up with some of the wildest, wackiest conclusions because they don't understand lexical semantics and the fact that words are defined within a semantic domain.

And hence, context is the king in determining where in a word's semantic domain its definition is to be found in its particular usage, in a particular context.

The same thing is true here. You have an argument that goes for multiple lines.

You have an argument, really, that goes for multiple paragraphs. And if you do not see the overarching argument, if you do not follow the concern of the author, which is, well, a completely different subject, what happens when when

Norman Geisler goes to John 640 to try to get rid of the teaching of John 637? That's not how you interpret an argument.

You don't jump into an argument three paragraphs in to redefine the first paragraph.

And the same way you look at what is being taught by the apostle and you look for the consistent theme throughout all of it and then you interpret passives and you interpret participles and you interpret sub clauses and you interpret direct objects and everything else in light of how they're used within the context of the text itself.

And especially as I look at Colossians chapter one, beginning in verse 15, you've probably got all the way down to the end of verse 20, a hymnic, a poetic form.

And so if you want to interpret ectis the in Colossians 1 .16

separate from the perfect middle indicative use at the end of the same verse or apart from sunneste can or apart from the assertion

Haas Esten Arkay, who is the the head, the firstborn from the dead. If you want to ignore all that stuff, then you can come up with anything you want.

And that's what cultic interpretation does. But if you're actually seeking to interpret the text for what it says, well, that's not how you do it.

And I don't want to offend anybody, but unfortunately, a lot of the really bad stuff you see on the channel between 20 and 22 here in Phoenix, the misnamed broadcasting network, that's what you're getting is the very same kind of, well, you know what this word means?

Whenever you hear someone say, you know what this word means, your response should be, well, it depends on what context is being used.

Because while there are some words that have very, very narrow semantic domains, and hence you can actually say, this word means this, because it has a very narrow semantic domain and it's going to carry the same meaning in almost any context.

The reality is the vast majority of terms have a wide enough semantic domain that when someone says, you know what this word means, the only response is, depends on the context in which it's being used.

But unfortunately, you get a lot of that not only outside the cults, but you get it within bad evangelicalism, too.

Okay, really quick, really quick. One last question. Is that okay? Yeah. He also said something in the opening question of his cross -examination.

The first question he said was, when did you see the word theos used the way that we would use it as a qualitative in jar 1 -1?

And I was wondering, could we say 2 Peter 1 -1 in Titus 2 -13, where Jesus is called our great

God and Savior, God is used in the same way? Is it not? No, I think the point was, the point's an invalid point, and that is when you recognize a particular syntactical category.

For example, the use of the anarthorus used in John 1 -1c coming before the pre -verbal form and saying, well, if it bears the meaning that you're giving, then there must be other examples of it within the 138 ,000 some odd words of the

New Testament grand total. And that is not a valid argument. It only carries weight if what

I'm saying is extremely unusual and goes against numerous other examples in the

New Testament. And the fact of the matter is, it doesn't go against numerous other examples where you have an anarthorus use of theos before the verb in this type of a context.

There just aren't that many places at all that contain this kind of phraseology, which is why you have to look outside the

New Testament for other kinds of uses. The reason that wouldn't be necessarily the case in regards to the

Granville -Sharp constructions of Titus 2 -13 and 2 Peter 1 -1 is that you're not talking about the same kind of construction.

You're not talking about the predicate nominative. You're not talking about pre -verbal. And of course,

Mr. Stafford has wasted a lot of bandwidth and much ink attempting to get around the

Granville -Sharp constructions as well, trying to find somewhere, someplace where someone used a

Granville -Sharp construction that would violate the uses in the

New Testament just to find some way to get around the fact that, for example, in 2 Peter you have at least four

Granville -Sharp constructions. And they all agree on at least three of them. They're all Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, but God and Savior, it just can't be that.

It's just I realize he doesn't see this. But to someone who has some perspective, and I believe

I do have perspective because I deal with all sorts of different viewpoints.

I deal with Muslims and atheists and all sorts of things. He's just got one focus, and he doesn't see just how completely out of balance he is.

But most cult leaders don't. And that's what Greg Stafford has become. He's become his own cult leader. He has his own little followers.

And probably after he dies someday in the future, and he's younger than I am, so I won't get to see this probably.

But when he dies, it'll just disappear because you have to have a second generation charismatic leader to a group to keep it going.

And it'll probably just shatter off into all sorts of little small groups and things like that is probably how that will work.

But anyways, thanks for your call today. I'm a little confused because that's actually on the air right now, according to mine.

But I'm not sure what I'm doing now. So I don't even know where to go at the moment.

I don't know what line two is. There's nothing. There's no description of line two. I don't know what the question is.

I don't know who it is. Um, but I'll just click on anyways. And I guess your name is

Emmett. Hello, Emmett. Hey, Dr. White. How are you? Pretty good. But I have no earthy idea what your question is because.

Sorry, I dropped the call. And I think Chris was trying to get me reconnected there. Okay. Basically, I just wanted to highlight kind of what you were talking about the

Dean show earlier. There's a gentleman here in Sacramento that I spoke with who is a relatively new believer.

And he claimed for a while to be a convert from Islam. Oh, and so after discussing this with him, right after discussing this with him, it came to light that his stepfather was

Muslim, and he actually was not. He never said that he did or anything like that. You mean the

Shahada? Shahada. Yeah, you're right. And he never said the Shahada. And so he never really read the Quran either. So what

I kind of had advised him, well, I told him the story of, you know, the great evangelical cover -up and kind of how people have been misrepresenting.

And it's very important that we stay consistent and truthful and honest. By the way,

Emmett, do you know what Hadith 2425 is? You know, I would like to get a t -shirt.

Maybe someone can tell me. Just wondering, we're still sort of asking that question, you know?

That's right. Yeah, I would like to know too. But, you know, I mean, it's just, it's funny how, you know, you would expect the same courtesy from the other end.

But yeah, he well received that, this young guy. And yeah, and so I just thought

I'd bring that to light that, you know, from our end, this kind of stuff doesn't really go over very well.

We don't look at that and say, yeah, you know. Well, let's, you know, I very much appreciate your approaching about it.

That is the proper thing to do. We need to have that kind of attitude. The sad thing is, if he was looking to make money, he probably could have could have done that.

And there'd be lots of willing people, unfortunately, that are willing to enrich folks for engaging in that kind of thing.

And but we should be the first ones as Christians to be pointing that out and saying, hey, look, um, unless the person, you know, had some kind of standing.

I mean, aspiring Baptist minister. Oh, I once thought about becoming a caliph.

I guess that makes me an aspiring caliph, right? I mean, come on. This is, it's just, it's just amazing that people can sit there with a straight face.

And my question is, this was recorded in front of an audience. Why aren't there people in the audience putting their hand up and going, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait.

Why are you calling this guy an aspiring Baptist minister when he's told us that he was in a bar in his senior year in college, having gone nuts in college and acted in a bad way.

And he just had the idea of maybe getting religious again and going into the ministry. How do you call, what do you, would we put up with this?

And the answer would be no. But I just, I just, there is so few people that have that attitude. And it, it says a lot to me.

It unfortunately has to say a lot to me that that's the kind of thing that we're seeing so often.

But I'm glad that you mentioned what you did to the fellow up there. And I'll be heading you guys' direction in a few weeks.

I know, we're really excited. I'm looking forward to it. And as long as the traffic isn't really bad between Valleja and Sacramento.

Well, you will be getting some salsa, I assume? I'm certainly hoping that I'm going to get some real good chips and salsa when

I get there. There's a certain former Navy SEAL or wannabe Navy SEAL that has promised me that.

So that's pretty cool. Okay. All right, Dr. White. Thank you so much for having me on. All right. God bless. All right.

Bye -bye. Yeah, heading to the Sacramento area. I'm going to be teaching. Well, you all see that up on the website.

I'll be teaching for Cornerstone Seminary. I leave New Year's Day evening and fly up there.

Could I arrange one? Can I make a request for all the fellow believers up in Northern California?

Could we avoid the earthquake thing while I'm there? You know, you guys like to do that.

It's your thing. But while I'm there, if you could just, you know, avoid any unnecessary bouncing or vibration production, whatever it is you guys do, it starts this stuff.

You know, because I really would not like to be there during that time. Because I probably wouldn't get home for a while.

And that really wouldn't be fun. So if we could avoid that. And I don't think, now, is

Santa Rosa up that direction too, Larry? Yes, it is. Absolutely. Okay, good.

We're about 50 miles north of San Francisco. Okay. Could you help me out with that?

Make sure there's no rocking and rolling? Oh, they're fun. They're fun. You enjoy them all.

Oh, see, it's a true California. They're fun. Come on. Just make sure there's nothing on the wall above you and you'll be fine.

Yeah, sure. Oh, a piece of cake. No problem. Yes, sir. What can we do for you? Okay, I have a question about forgiveness.

It's a twofold question. I don't want to throw you for a loop. Let me just throw out the first part is, are we required to forgive anyone regardless if someone asks us for forgiveness or not?

That's the first part. I sense that, from my perspective, you know, forgive.

If somebody does something, you forgive them, whether they come to you and ask for forgiveness or not. That's how

I look at it. And I think Matthew, you know, chapter 6, you know, when they sin against you, your

Heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

So, I mean, that pretty much answers that. The second part, and this is the real reason why

I'm calling, is to the Arminian, God won't forgive you unless you ask.

And to me, that's an argument in there. And I don't know if it's an argument that's justifiable.

Yeah. Well, I don't know that I would agree with the premise, personally.

There is a difference between being an unforgiving person and recognizing the difference between a person who has not asked for forgiveness from you and a person who has.

When someone comes to you and says, please forgive me for X, Y, and Z, I don't think the biblical response is, why are you doing that?

I already did. I'm a Christian. In the same way, even

Christians are told to confess their sins, to hamalageo, to speak the same thing in regards to their sins, which

I think is very much related to the necessity of restoration of relationship.

But if there is someone, for example, if forgiveness is just an automatic thing without repentance, then there's a bunch of stuff that I don't understand.

For example, in Matthew 18, if your brother sins against you, why is there anything related to church discipline there?

Because that should be it. It's just, well, he's forgiven. Well, what if he does it again? In other words, in church discipline, there is the issue of unrepentant sin and the fact that a person who is committing this sin must be dealt with as a person who has not repented.

And in the same way, if someone has wronged me, on my part, there must be the willingness to forgive because I myself have been forgiven.

And there has to be, we have to avoid an attitude. Because, look, there's many times where things are done to us where there really isn't any opportunity for the restoration of the relationship, especially in our modern world where people can do things to you from a thousand miles away and you may never have contact with them again.

So you can, in that situation, you give that to the Lord, you hand it over to the

Lord, and you don't nurse feelings of resentment and bitterness and so on and so forth.

But as far as the relationship goes, you'd be, I think, silly if all of a sudden that person comes into your life to not deal with unresolved issues from the past.

Especially from my perspective, one of the things that I value the most in a relationship is consistency and honesty.

And if someone has violated that very high standard for me in the past, we are not going to be able to have a close relationship until that is dealt with.

And if I just simply say, oh well, I've forgiven it, then I'm not going to deal with it. So I would not,

I don't see any example of forgiveness without repentance. And I'm a little concerned because it sounds like what you're saying in the second part is that you see in Reformed theology forgiveness without repentance.

And that's, I would warn you, I'd raise...

Hold on, let me clarify. I mean, God gives us the heart to be forgiven.

Okay. The heart to be forgiven or is... We won't go to God and request forgiveness unless God changes our heart.

Okay, let me put it this way. The work of the Spirit in bringing about regeneration results in a new creature who is not only naturally drawn in faith to the one who has redeemed him, but faith and repentance are flip sides of the same thing.

And so the clinging to God likewise results in repentance from sin. So every believer has believed and repented.

That's the horrible element of the anti -lordship, free grace stuff, is that you have

Christians who are unrepentant. And that presents a perverted view of what true saving faith is.

And so I would say that the sovereign work of the Spirit results in a change in one's heart so that faith and repentance, which are gifts from God, are always exercised.

And so the ground of forgiveness is not my asking, but it is

God's will that whenever that forgiveness is extended, it is extended to one who has faith and repentance.

So that's why I heard that, and I really wasn't sure where you're taking it on that one.

But I think the primary issue is, I wouldn't just simply say that if someone sins against me,

I'm just supposed to go, whatever, even if they remain unrepentant. If there is repentance, there has to be restoration.

No believer has any grounds for—I mean, look at the parable that Jesus told there.

But the parable that Jesus told there was not saying that repentance is irrelevant. Repentance is absolutely necessary for the restoration of my relationship with God as well as my relationship with other people as well.

So I know that there are people out there that teach the idea that you just simply forgive everything, whether the other person is continuing in that behavior, etc.,

etc. I just don't see the biblical basis for that. Okay. Okay.

Sounds good. Thank you. All right. I appreciate it, Larry. Thank you very much, and we'll—I'm not sure how far

Santa Rosa is from Sacramento, but we'll be up there in January. Maybe you can take the trip down. All right.

We'll see you. Thanks a lot. God bless. Bye -bye. All right. Let's continue on. We've got some more open lines in a few more minutes.

We've got one more call, but we've got a few more minutes if you want to sneak in at 877 -753 -3341.

Let's talk with David. Hi, David. Hi, David. Excuse me. Hi, Dr. White. How are you doing?

Talk to yourself often, David. Yes, I have the most fascinating conversations with myself.

Actually, no one else. Everyone else I talk to is just boring, but me, I just fascinate myself for hours.

How are you doing, Dr. White? I'm doing better than you are at the moment, but hey, don't worry about it. At least I didn't tell you you're calling from—okay,

I'm not going to do that either. Yeah, my name is

David. There's a Muslim that I'm witnessing to. His name is Ahmed. Well, there's a real unusual name.

That'll give it away. Yeah. I'm trying to speak with him and talk to him about the gospel and such.

One of the many things he brings up is the Trinity. He keeps saying that the

Trinity is Roman influence. It was Roman paganism that influenced

Christianity and thus gave rise to the doctrine. And I say, where did you get this idea?

One of the things he says is he watched an episode of the Dane Show which featured Joseph Estes on the

Trinity. Yes, yes. A man who will not debate me, by the way. For good reason.

He would not have a snowball's chance, proverbially speaking. Right. Snowball's chance in Phoenix.

I live in Phoenix. Just want everyone to understand that. Right, right. But he keeps bringing up this

Roman paganism that influenced Christianity. And of course, I watched the episode of that Dane Show.

And of course, a lot of the things that he says is ridiculous. Like he said, for instance, that the King James Bible was not written with the authority and knowledge of King James.

I mean, so, I mean. Yeah, Joseph Estes has become far too accustomed to being able to say anything, no matter how ridiculous it is, and get away with it.

Because he just gets, you know, no one calls him on the carpet other than us.

And he realizes that his audience isn't going to really care about that. And that's, again, another example of how the

Dane Show really seems to pander to people who don't have much concern about truth.

It's a sad thing to see. Right. And of course, he brings up the verse in the Quran that says, don't say three.

As if, you know, the Trinity teaches that there are three gods and one. And that somehow

Mary is in that equation. Yes, sure. 5 -1 -16. I've spent a lot of time, especially in my response to Abdullah Kunda's debate down in Sydney recently on Surah 5.

Whatever a Christian needs to know about the Quran will be out in, Lord willing, early April.

There's a fairly extensive section on this as well, because I deal with all the three passages, not three passages, but all the passages that speak of three in the

Quran, and delve into the interpretation of these texts by Ibn Kathir and other people like that, and so on and so forth.

So there's a fair amount of information in there. But, yeah, my suggestion to you would be to approach it from the perspective of, well, look,

Yusuf Estes aside, given that I severely challenge his credibility as an expert on these things.

He was a, if I recall correctly, United Methodist layman. His knowledge of Christianity is significantly less accurate than your knowledge of Swahili native religions, it seems.

But be that as it may, I would challenge him to go, well, look, if the Quran is the word of God, as you believe it is, and the

Trinity is not how God has revealed himself to be, then would it not follow that the

Quran will accurately represent what the doctrine of the Trinity is? And then you can go to Surah 4, 171, 172,

Surah 5, 17, Surah 5, 72, Surah 5, 116, and demonstrate that the author of the

Quran thought that the Trinity is a belief in multiple gods. And you can go back and demonstrate from the very beginning that Christians believe there's only one true

God, you could take him to the passages of Scripture that believes there's one true God, and even challenge him, say, you think this is some

Roman invention? Wait a minute, so while the Romans were persecuting the Christians and killing them, the

Christians adopted Roman ways of thinking? Is that really what you're suggesting is going on? I mean, that doesn't make a lick of sense, because the doctrine of the

Trinity was clearly what was being enunciated by someone as early as Ignatius in 107 -108

AD, when he wrote to the various churches he wrote to on his way to Rome. So long before Nicaea, while the church was still under persecution from the

Roman Empire, you're really telling me these people died for their faith, and yet they allowed the

Romans to determine their view of God? That does not make any sense, and I don't think that any rational person could possibly think that it does.

Right, right. Yeah, thank you very much, and I'll definitely—

Yeah, let us know if you have other specific questions. I mean, we're just about out of time here. We've still got two other callers online, but yeah, that's—and if you ever get a way to challenge

Eusef Estes to debate, let me know, too, because I want to debate him. All right, thanks, David. Thank you very much.

All right, thanks. Really quick, Jake and Steve, can we do this quickly? Jake? Hi, Dr.

White. How are you doing today? Yes, sir. I live in northern Illinois and Chicagoland.

We're actually having our first snow here today, so I'm kind of excited about that. Well, I'm really sorry that you're in a socialist area, but anyways, go ahead.

Well, we're in northern Illinois, but anyway, close to Wisconsin. But I live in a church.

I've been attending a church all my life, and just kind of the last couple years seeing the leadership kind of go a different direction than really kind of what seems biblical.

We're in a process of looking for a new pastor and having more of a therapeutic kind of easy listening style preaching.

My question for you is, at what point as a member—I mean, a group of us have addressed the issue to the elder board, have written to the search committee—at what point do you just kind of say, well, it's time to move on, if that makes sense?

Yeah, I'll try to be brief because we've got one more we've got to sneak in real quick, and unfortunately we just can't go that far over on our time today.

But I am not a fan of church hopping. I've only been in two churches in my adult life, and I literally had to be beaten over the head with a two -by -four to get me out of the first one.

And so, fundamentally, what you want to be able to say when you apply for membership at the new church that,

Lord willing, you find that is consistently seeking to honor the

Lord in the exposition of the entirety of Scripture and in the worship and ordering worship by God's Word rather than by culture and so on and so forth, what you want to be able to say to that new church is, first of all, you don't want to be embroiled in bitterness about the old one.

You don't want to be talking about how bad the old one is. What you want to be able to say to them is,

I sought to serve God to the best of my abilities up until the point where I felt that the gospel itself was no longer being clearly presented in such a way that I could expect that my wife and my children, my family, someone that would bring with me would hear a clear presentation on a consistent level up to the point where my worship itself was being materially impacted by the deviations from the

Word of God. And so you try to work within the context, but when it comes to the point where your worship is being impacted and the truth of the gospel is being compromised, that's when you need to be looking elsewhere.

Okay, thank you very much. Okay, thanks, Jake. God bless. All right, bye. Let's sneak Steve in real quick.

Hey, Steve. Hello, Dr. White. Yes, sir. I want to be respectful of your time, so I'm just going to go ahead and call in with my question another day, but while I have you on the line,

I just want to congratulate you on the addition to your family. And really just thank you for your ministry.

The Lord's called me to a small Baptist church here in New Jersey, just kind of being faithful as a layperson.

There are still Christians in New Jersey? Shocking, isn't it? Wow, man. No, that's exciting.

The kingdom's growing everywhere. No, just kidding. There's a number of fine churches in New Jersey. There are.

I just recently attended a Reformed Pastors Conference with my pastor.

We've struck up a friendship, and he's kind of made use of the resources that I've gleaned through your ministry.

I drive six hours a night for my job, and the Wayback Machine has just been an absolute blessing, and I've taken up your admonitions to redeem the time, as you do on your bike.

So I want to just thank you, and I'm going to be getting the opportunity to teach through God's sovereign grace.

I'm currently doing it with the youth group, and I'm going to be possibly doing it with the men down the road.

And it's just been a blessing in my life, and I'm just kidding. That's my question all in all, just kind of.

Well, I appreciate that, Steve, and it is amazing where this little webcast goes. And I do hope you'll be careful driving at night those six hours.

Sometimes I say some crazy things, the Wayback Machine. Do not drive off the road when I say that. And thank you for the congratulations on Little Clementine as well.

Thanks for your call today. Thanks for everybody listening to the program today. No more Baby Watch, so next week's a mess, isn't it?

Yeah, probably looking at Thursday next week. Yeah, probably.

Yeah, no one will be listening on Monday anyways, and I've got a busy day. So we'll see you a week from now. Have a blessed time with your families.

God bless. The Dividing Line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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that's A -O -M -I -N dot O -R -G, where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates, and tracks.