The Laborers' Podcast- Biblical Masculinity

Welcome to the labors podcast. We are thankful that you're joining us this evening tonight.

We're going to be talking about biblical manhood Are we to be men who sit on the couch watch football and wrestling?

are we to be men who are avid sportsmen that can that know how to field dress a deer and And bring the meat home or we

TV dads that are pushovers What does the bible say about who we should be stay tuned and we'll talk about that tonight

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Let us know that you're watching ask a question and we'll try to answer it tonight we are with The here

I stand theology podcast the happy calvinist clog. Good to have you with us Uh, we are with big john.

Um Community Community church real life community church real real life community church.

That's it. It just it just left me We got tallah with us bread of the word podcast and we have a new gentleman with us tonight and I feel like he is joining the network

We we've been having some discussions off air with with jeremy and I feel like that he's going to be joining the network

Um jeremy let people know who you are where you're at and and about yourself

Well, my name is jeremy hall. I'm, uh, a pastor of small church in conway, south carolina, um called faith reformed faith reformed baptist church

Um, we got planted about almost three years ago. Now. We've been marching through romans verse by verse we're in romans 10 right now, so um

I'm married with three kids and my oldest daughter is uh I'm pregnant and due to have my first grandbaby this weekend

That's about all y 'all need to know about me Amen. Amen Um, let me do this housekeeping real quick because I I don't want to forget

I want to honor these people and we're not making any money Uh, we just want to bring unity in the body of christ that we want to support others um that our churches ministries, um

Uh christian business owners that support us verbally and they are they're

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We support the truth and love network, so check these guys out Telling me to dance taking a chance

So Let's get into the topic tonight, uh, we want to talk about biblical manhood

Am I a man because I can I can go? field dress a deer or Should I model myself after?

Uh tv dads and and be a pushover in in the family What does the bible say about who we are to be as men

Um, so let's let's go with the first question describe the difference in a man that is driven

Yet content with faithfulness Versus a man that seeks the applause of men

Big john since you're in First in line you want to go first i'll try Okay, the difference between a man that is that is driven yet content with faithfulness versus a man that seeks the applause of men

Well What's that? I'll take the last one first. Obviously anytime that you're seeking the applause of men

You'll find yourself in direct direct Opposition to the gospel, right?

everything Everything that the church does and everything that men of god do should be to glorify and honor god should be to point all of all of the world to Jesus christ and if we're seeking the applause of men then that means by definition you're looking to point people to you, right?

so that's at its at its absolute best as wildly narcissistic

And at its absolute worst is radically condemnable as sin by scripture and I don't

I don't know that I find The word I was reading the question right when you asked me Between a driven yet content with faithfulness

So in this question, are you asking? That they both driven and content in their faithfulness.

Is that what you're saying? Yeah well Driven as in I think most men are are driven by nature that that we want to You know, we want to better ourselves we want to do better for our family we want to do better for our children ambition

Ambition. Yeah, I think that's not natural for for men to want to do that and yet we also can find contentment in the sovereignty of god

Places he has us. I don't know that they're mutually exclusive though Right.

I mean so let's take Uh, I don't know let's take paul From the bible. Would you consider paul content his own definition of his life was one of contentment, right?

Name another apostle more driven than brother paul right right, so uh,

I think I think to some degrees I would say driven is great.

So long as you're driven by the right thing. So uh for for instance, uh

Why do you want to be a good dad? Do you want to be a good dad? Because you don't want your kids to talk bad about you whenever you're old

You don't want to your your kids to tell your grandkids terrible things about how you really didn't care Or do you want to be a good dad because you want to exemplify christ in your home?

Right an example of who jesus is so I think maybe more than saying driven is What drives you to be there?

What is your motive? because There's a happy calvinist on here who had me listen to a sermon one time called

Ten shekels in a shirt or something like that So part of the thing that the man said in that sermon was you can have totally wrong motives for doing right things

And actually be guilty of the exact same things of the world The world says he who dies with the most toys wins the church

We say the one who has led the most people to christ has had a successful life and I would

I would incur that the last One is more truthful however if your motive for seeing souls brought to the glory of god is so that you can

I don't know have a Full tally beside your name then you're no better off than the former, right?

That's right. That's right So, uh, I don't know if I answered your question though to be honest with you

I would say that the difference between being driven and content in christ Is that you seek to glory and honor god and everything that you do including

And up to and including your family and all aspects of it, whether it be your marriage to your wife or the fatherhood you have towards your children or the

Fatherhood you have to other people's children who don't have a dad or the example that you are at work Yeah, you know, where do you stop?

Anybody want to jump on that before I get to the next question? No, I would just I think jesus reinforces that to us in the scripture good man out of the good treasure of his heart

Bringing forth good things right and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil things

Yeah Exactly, right All right, i've spoke now

I don't have She's sorry Tell her

I think this next question i'm thinking this will be Okay for you because um, you know

Previously when the biblical manhood podcast was coming up we talked about going over the danvers statement And I know that you looked it up and looked over it.

Got it right here but as we Between then and now I was looking into that and different perspectives.

So here's my question um, I recently heard a criticism on the danvers statement, uh danvers statement being a

Compilation by complementarians describing biblical manhood or womanhood Being a complementarian statement.

It doesn't go far enough. They say in that it can still be hijacked by egalitarians The more biblical view they say is biblical patriarchy.

Where would you land on that? Okay, well I I read that question and honestly i've racked my brain on that one a good bit this week and honestly,

I don't See from the danvers statement how it doesn't go far enough in my own personal observation

So i'm not sure what exactly it they think it's missing Um, I would love to see specifics on what exactly they think should have been included here but we do have to recognize that the

Danvers statement is on some level reactionary that the the statements The six statements on the the front page for the reasons for putting this together had to do with feminism and some of the philosophies of sigmund freud the sexualization of humanity and some of that so you have some

Aspect where it's responding to cultural shifts And so that might be part of what they're getting at maybe that it's responding more to a culture than um

The solid issue I could think that um As to whether or not complementarianism is biblically consistent

Um, I think it depends on how we define complementarianism and Biblical patriarchy there are some differing views i've come across on what we mean by patriarchy

So we I think the first route to handling that side of it would be to start defining terms

So what are the uh, did you did you look into that? So what are what how would you define?

uh patriarchy and then The other part of this statement, like you said the important thing is to do is to to define terms so the idea of patriarchy um

Bare bones, um typically refers to the man as this this headship.

I mean you have ideas of headship in um complementarianism with the father being the head of the household the husband being the head of the the wife but where that seems to get worked out with Biblical patriarchy from what i've come across generally involves

The woman does not work. She does not have a role in politics like um

Governor, there's no female governors. Um, i've come across some That state that they should not vote

And some of those kinds of outworkings that it is only men outside the house And so I guess it depends on are we using that definition of patriarchy

In in the critique of the denver statement or something a bit more Dare, I say progressive something a little looser around the collar but as to what complementarianism means is the idea that Man and woman have complementarity that is that they are they're designed in different ways, but that they are

Attuned to each other. Um go back to genesis two. I will make a helper for him um corresponding to him and that's as close to the hebrew,

I think is I'm aware of that we can get is corresponding to that. There's something directly relational between how eve was designed and how adam was designed that they

To use the term complement each other. Yeah and and that plays into marriage that plays into the family dynamics that plays into Um a number of aspects of the way we look at humanity is that man and woman operate together that They bring out different aspects of each other

I mean If someone would like to expand on that a little bit further, but the general idea with complementarianism um based on what's in the denver statement is that There is you have man you have woman male and female and god designed them each in a specific way for On specific purposes, um, they don't have the same roles necessarily, but that doesn't demean or belittle one or the other

Correct correct me if i'm if I heard you right I want to try to to restate um

What I heard and what I was hearing. Um, so even with biblical patriarchy because I brought up the fact that that these folks were saying that there was

Of complementarian, you know complementarians didn't go far enough So we lean towards biblical patriarchy and what

I heard you say was even even within biblical patriarchy There's a spectrum

Yes So you could you could be way off in the ditch with patriarchy Yes, yes, okay, so I mean there's

There's ditches that you can fall in even even in that arena as well But then it wouldn't be biblical

True, right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly I I knew

I asked you that for a reason. I knew you you had studied up on that one Speak for jeremy, but I think me and paul or me and claude both agree.

We're glad you asked him, too Yeah You're right. That's right I ain't no shame in my game.

That's right Well, let's get off um

Um critiques and all that let's let's get back to the The nitty -gritty and find out what the bible says.

Uh, the next question claude. Why is personal integrity a quality of a biblical man?

um well first of all so As to your question, why is biblical integrity important as it relates to the big to the godly man, right?

so number one we are to be a Uh, we are to demonstrate

Not just we are to demonstrate to our family to our friends to the world in general uh and to Show forth the saving power

Of of the lord in our lives how god makes a man a new creature and I know

All men aren't called to be pastors or elders But the uh, the elder qualifications in first timothy particularly for example

Are just a good overall Guideline for men to really men and women alike to really hold to um

In in the larger sense, but right above reproach. So a godly man should be above reproach

Regardless whether he's an elder pastor godly man should be above reproach Uh the husband and one wife temperate sensible respectable hospitable apt to teach

Not addicted to wine or pugnacious. This is the living standard version. They're living standard bible

Not contentious meaning not contentious, but considerate peaceable free from the love of money leading his household

Well, uh having his children in submission with all dignity Right because it says if man does not know know how to lead his household, how shall he take care of the church of god?

so Biblical integrity is just something that Should be demonstrated or or as a result of regeneration

That will be demonstrated Because the fruit of the spirit of a believer

Is according to galatians love joy peace patience kindness goodness meekness temperance

Right self -control against such there is no law. That's what the book. That's what paul taught the galatian church, right?

so uh, I think what happens a lot of times is that in in christian circles, there's so much of a

Uh a hash is what i'll say Uh vance habner the old preacher used to say

I don't eat hash at home because I know what's in it And I don't eat hash away when i'm away from home because I don't know what's in it

Because it's just an amalgamation of a bunch of stuff thrown into a pot and fried up, right? So I think what's happened in the church world is there's been this amalgamation of ideologies right about What a man should be what a man shouldn't be right?

What should what should what should a man do? What shouldn't a man do when there shouldn't be an admixture at all?

It should be we should be going to the book to see what god requires of a godly man and what a godly man looks like um

And the old the old puritans, uh can't remember who what his name is right now, but godly man's picture one the one the old

Puritans wrote a book godly man's picture which you know typifies what a godly man should look like so Hmm let me ask two questions branched off that integrity question.

So As far as Your personal life behind the scenes life.

Yep. Do you think it's wise? for a man to have safeguards as far as accountability or Things things that help keep you away from sin when when nobody else is around Um, do you think that's a that's a wise thing to do for for men unequivocally?

Absolutely. Yes Okay And here's my second because you're an idiot if you don't

Adrian rogers back when I was in high school I I skipped semester exams my senior year had to go back a semester just so I could go to the uh,

Sbc sbc pastor's conference to hear adrian rogers preach And i'll never forget it as a high school senior the message that he preached to that To that pastor's conference.

It was called the playboy's payday He said any man That claims he's not tempted or doesn't look at other women is one of three things

He's no man He's superman or he's a liar And that's the truth

Right, that's right. That's that's Sorry to keep going on but that's that's part of why it's so important for a godly man uh to be a active connected

Dedicated member of a local church because you have personal accountability with people that you come in contact with on a regular basis

To keep you in check Sorry next part No, no, that's good.

And uh Maybe you other guys can maybe give one other piece of advice in that area for personal integrity and my second question which

I will also ask for um advice would be especially for for young young men or Young men seeking or having the desire to teach having desire to be a pastor.

Um theological integrity Um how to how to keep yourself from from going off in into ditches or following the wrong person or becoming too

A cage stage is the term that has been coined lately Um, you know, you you learn this new doctrine and you're so excited about it.

You just want to rattle everybody's cages Why don't you believe in this? So, so how can we maintain theological integrity as as young men people looking as older men

Um, and and what are other good pieces of advice for personal integrity? Any other guys?

well, I I'd uh as since i'm not a calvinist, I wouldn't be in the cage stage according to So, uh, but uh in terms of well in terms of personal integrity uh simple

Extremely simple things that uh should be done from a man's perspective is

Thank you. You're uh probably your Digital life is probably the most

Secluded of all the things that you do, right? everybody that's on here is only either a computer or a tablet or one of all three of them and Most folks carry a cell phone in their pocket that's capable of doing almost everything that their computer at your desk is capable of doing and uh

You know, there's a myriad of of things you can get into i'm sure if you wanted to on your telephone

So the simplest thing for me is always having all my stuff open always it's

Just a uh, what'd you call it a safeguard? Yeah, it's something that everything that Everything that I have is logged on to almost the same thing

And my wife knows my passwords better than my kids know my passwords because I need to ask them they're going to be the ones that log on so Uh, it's best.

I always find it best to always keep things like this open. For instance, my youtube Is on the television and you can turn on my television and pull up my youtube watch history you know now again

This is wildly simple but it requires that you and i'm sure there's still a way you could probably bypass these things

I Don't really know how but if i'm sure someone out there wouldn't know how the thing is

That's where it takes having a relationship with somebody and I suggest not just with your wife

But somebody other than your wife that asks you hard questions and know if you're trying to be deceptive. Yep Somebody that whenever you start talking around the subject instead of answering it they nail you to the wall and say

I'm, just going to ask you straight up if you can't answer me straight up, then I know we've got a problem and uh,

Again, these are very very very simple things I think another area That isn't as commonly talked about From the minister's point of view is integrity and sermon preparation

Yep as i've gone to other churches here lately and have have uh applied for pastor's positions i've been asked

Every single church if I prepared my own sermons Wow And I don't know that this is a thing that everybody must be but undoubtedly somebody somewhere's dealing with it because I keep getting asked this question and and uh

That's something that as you were talking about being a above reproach

One of the things that I think you ought to be able to do is you ought to be able to supply your sermon notes to anybody at any point whatsoever and uh

If you've got a problem sharing anything that's on your computer, you've got a problem period And uh that goes for not only your uh spiritual integrity

When you're talking about what your eyes are looking at and what your ears are listening to we're also dealing with what?

your Spiritual integrity is in terms of what you say Is it something that god's done in you or is this something god's done in somebody else and you've wrote all of it down?

What was the southern baptist convention deal a couple years ago? uh somebody wound up telling a lie and and used plagiarism for the last southern baptist convention leader who

I think was telling a lie when He told it and was plagiarizing somebody before him. Yeah, it's like third levels of nonsense, right?

If that's a dramatic comedy or not, but not but uh, yeah in any case

Well, hey, i've got some else to add but let's let jeremy jeremy's not got to speak on Go ahead.

Jeremy speak on this for a minute theological integrity. Come on red well Let me let me mention this beforehand.

I looked up that book godly man's picture. That's thomas watson. Okay, thomas watson. Thank you.

I Haven't read the book but Thomas watson's well trusted. So yeah, he's a good one.

I might get that for us for the men at the church um but theological integrity really

I think Um we've kind of As americans we've kind of got away from this and I think as reformed baptist and just reformers

We were kind of going back to it, but some of the creeds and confessions Now obviously we we know and understand it not

That's not our standard right scriptures are our standard but If we're outside of a creed or confession, we we better have a very very good reason to be outside of it.

Yeah But I I think those those help kind of like bumpers in a in um in bowling they keep they keep us out of the gutters

Um, but that's they're not there as that they're not there as the object that we're focused on So we're focused on the scriptures and and and dealing with the scriptures but we have creeds and confessions that kind of keep us there um when we're when we're not you know,

I think another part of that is as pastors or some of us even uh, maybe not even pastors or That before we're not pastors is our pastor should be able

We should be able to go to our pastor with any question theologically Um, and if he doesn't know the answer to it because there's some you just don't there's no answer or it's not sufficient but we should at least be able to go give it an answer to it or say

I don't know the exact thing on this but John, calvin taught this or john gill taught that um

So we have we have that in our pastors and in our creeds and confessions and in our local body and I think to go wasn't

Was it big john, is that what I said? Yes, sir He's talked about having somebody there that will hold you accountable

I think that's part of being a biblical man is I have Uh men that would hold me accountable

And I hold them accountable too. That's part of being a biblical man Not being um

Autonomous and you know, I got this don't worry about me That's right. I don't none of us have it

I think uh, I think about brother paul washer uh I used one of his quotes several times.

It's fantastic as far as i'm concerned. Uh I think he was talking about his children uh, they were uh talking about the potential for his children courting later on in life and He said something to the effect of uh, he wouldn't let them leave

Uh the house, you know until they was uh until he was sure of their intentions

I can't remember how he worked and he said don't you trust your kids? He said no No, I don't trust my kids.

He said I don't trust their dad and I thought I thought man, that's great. So there's been times my kids wanted to do something

I was like no, I ain't doing that and somebody said I think it's my wife. She said do you not trust him? I said absolutely not Without hesitation, no one don't trust you

I know them That's and I don't trust their dad. That's And I approached it this way with my wife too

I have several times I said, uh, I encourage You to check behind what

I say if I say something about the bible look it up Look it up. I'm not i'm not immune to being wrong.

I mean i'm not you know, uh If i'm doing something or saying something that you don't think is flush

Take it to somebody if you I mean get a second opinion, uh And bring them bring them to the house and have them because here's what here's what

I think about it If you love somebody you'd correct them. That's right Just to correct them you wouldn't let them keep steering it until they completely destroy their life and everybody around them

Loving them Is doing the hard thing in the moment, which is I don't know maybe making them mad for a little bit

That's right You brought up paul washer and here's one of the things And it's been so long ago since I listened to this series of his

I think it was on marriage and family But this is one of the things that I learned from him that I've I found so helpful

And of course i'm gonna mess it up. It's not an exact quote, but it's basically what I learned from him. He spoke of coming home

And then relieving your wife and taking care of the children taking them off her hands and taking care of the children

And he talked about me and saying well, you know i'm tired and he's like you're supposed to be you're supposed to go to bed

Yeah, and I I found that so helpful You know when

I've when I work And and i'm tired You don't really have time to to drift and and wander and go to other places

That's right. I found that so helpful That's good. You're supposed to be tired

Yeah, it takes a burden off of me I know Well ecclesiastes 10

Says that a wise man's heart is in his right hand, but a fool's heart is in his left and in that in a in an age in a context where you work with your hands where you were

Tending fields when you were making stuff You generally led with your right hand

So The wise person is it's poetry, but it's is depicted as having his heart in his active hand

And there's a there's a beautiful painting of saint augustine Where he's got his heart in one hand

And then he's got his eyes turned out to the window There's a big ball of light and on on the light is the word truth

And so the light comes in the window and eliminates his heart And augustine's often depicted in renaissance art as Having his heart in his hand that he's he's pondering and he's studying it.

He's examining it And I think there's something to be said about that. Um, definitely in the realm of accountability in some of this that we should have

Um guardrails built in we should have fellowship. We should have people sharpening one another

Amen, we should be examining the root of things. We should be getting down into the nitty -gritty of the what and the why?

When it comes to a heart that the bible says is full of deceit it's full of wickedness, yeah this this is a huge thing, this is a

Honestly, you might call this a pandemic in modern um culture with not just christian men but men in general is the issue of integrity the issue of conduct when we're looking at 200 page documents detailing christian colleges that have been covering for abuse for decades

We're seeing this kind of stuff. This is basically a pandemic. This is a This is a detrimental thing that we are missing

And that is great bringing a great deal of hurt on the church. It's bringing a great deal of um hurt to the witness of the church

Yeah No This has ramifications. This is worth getting right

I think about Robbie Zacharias whenever you were talking about that in that moment. I think about how a uh

You know seemingly a life That was lived in service You know in service to the lord and academic pursuits of theology and things and then you know and To have the

Testimony of him now that you have it It uh that that broke my heart so bad to uh to read the documents that came out and to listen to some of the things that his own kids had to go on their ministry's website and apologize to people and I think

I wish people would understand that You are not immune

To this kind of thing this there's no there's no button That is installed salvation that says that won't stick to me anymore.

It's like a teflon coat and there's that is not whatsoever and and we gotta we gotta quit acting like I agree with what brother claude said a while ago.

We're to be above reproach, but we're never to act like we're above reproach That's right.

It's to be able to be talked to you shouldn't ever Say to anybody who questions you how dare you question me?

That's right saying that That's right. And uh Yeah I I agree and galatians, uh again,

I think it's i'm pretty sure it's galatians That's where paul addresses that same issue and he says this if you which are spiritual see your brother overtaken

In a fault either restore such in one you who are spiritual restore such a one in the spirit of meekness

And then he says this comma Considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

Yes. That's it. That's exactly right And and rob one more can add one more, uh, absolutely for theological integrity theological integrity for the godly man uh is attained and and You know,

I I guess progressively built up right because we're we're never gonna be we're never gonna be uh good this out of eternity

But uh, amen another yeah another point of hold on There we go

Um, uh another point of theological integrity for a godly man when it comes to you know actual

Knowing the scriptures and understanding the text and rightly dividing the word theological integrity doesn't come

From me spending my time all my time reading One man's commentary one man's writing or listening to one man's preaching but it means that I Go and I like when we're when we're uh studying every week for this sermon, right?

We actually Go to different commentaries to see and to test

Uh, like what? Jeremy said there Uh, you know that like the guardrails in the confessions we go to the confessions and we go to different commentaries

I mean matthew henry's fantastic, but we don't just read matthew henry You read john calvin you read john gill you read alexander mclare and you read all these other, you know commentaries

Because there will be an overall consensus of truth throughout church history

Always there will always be a consensus of truth and guess what if we are coming up with some new brand new thought and no new idea about what a scripture says

We're probably not right If it's a brand new thought and a brand new idea about what the scripture says because there's nothing new under heaven in the word of god and so biblical theological integrity

Comes from being able to to draw or to view and to hear a wide spectrum of commentary on biblical texts

But you have to stay grounded in the text itself Well, i'll go ahead and admit that i'm finding myself

To a degree guilty of that, you know seeing something in the text and but I I threw it out

Um, like I I threw it out this this past week to to you guys and i'll throw it out to some other people to to see

If if what i'm seeing that lines up with scripture does it line up with the original language and you know

I'm learning that the consensus is what what i'm seeing or what

I thought I saw Doesn't really line up with the biblical text the original language and so i've got to make steer and make a correction

In my thinking I still think there's a connection there. It just may not be where I thought it was right, and so um, yeah, that's

Tremendous and it's tremendously important to say Once you learn that what you're thinking is not the consensus to say step back

That's right and reevaluate and it's not easy to do But but that is that is a evidence of uh biblical integrity of godly of being a godly biblically

Integral and not integral. Yeah having godly and biblical integrity

I just wanted to ask one clarification on something that you were saying tyler um when you were talking about the heart being in the hand the right hand and being

You know kind of put out forward in front of the man The word that I was thinking when you were describing that was the word exposed is that what you were getting at That the heart is exposed

Yes, it's it's supposed to correction. It's exposed to truth. It's exposed Absolutely to sin or or the sin that's there.

Okay, okay That that makes a lot of sense. I I love that analogy Jeremy i'm glad you come back because I wanted to go to you for the next question.

There was a uh I got my chicken coop out here And I have a motion sensor light on it

And the motion sensor light came on and my dog was going crazy. Oh So my family's kind of freaking out thinking there's a coyote or something out here

So I just had to go make sure my chickens were okay Ha ha Well, you and dan would have a lot to talk with because he's up in new york and I have chickens and ducks and I think they've they've had a

An enemy to the to the bird family there Oh, we have two we had 20 21 of them and now i'm down to nine.

Oh, no Yeah, wow. So I want to find what it is, right?

Exactly. Exactly eat it This um this next question How is how is trusting in the sovereignty of god a trait of the biblical man and you want me to answer that yes

Um personally, I would say that As the leader in my family and supposed to be in my community and in my church

The fact that I can rest in god's sovereignty gives others rest around me if they see me like You know the the house payments due and the the money hasn't come in and i'm running around frantic and and worried about everything in the world and having you know, uh panic attacks or whatever it is and It's going to affect those around me

Where when I go, you know The lord says he's going to take care of me and he can he could um pay his disciples taxes

With a coin out of a fish's mouth I'm, pretty sure he can put money in my bank account and and You know, that's

I think that's one good aspect of it. I think another one is when we go back to the creation mandate

And I don't know if you guys are all on board with this, but you know, we're called to have dominion And that flows out of I mean god god has perfect dominion, right?

But he's created us in his image and called us to to have dominion in the land so we go forth and and With first and foremost with the gospel message

And seeing god save his people While we're resting in his sovereignty as well, you know, like I think it was big john earlier said, you know, there there's some people that say, you know

They count as the the numbers of people that they've led to christ well For me

Every person i've preached the gospel to i've led to christ now Then they may not be born again

But I led every single one of them to christ and I for me. I don't take numbers like that Like that's right.

It doesn't matter to me because that's not my my department is taking the gospel to people

And then god does The saving amen Amen, I was going to say this speaks to church leadership, too

Yeah, because I mean we can say we trust in the sovereignty of god but then our our behavior and our methodology

In church is going to speak to Where we land on that? Yeah, I think that's what you were touching on a little bit.

Yeah Yeah, if we're I think to bring up this is a little um Hmm Uh, I don't

I can't think of the word. It's very popular subject right now, but with like revivalism like Yeah, why would

I set up a tent and think i'm gonna have a revival and god's gonna save a bunch of people I just preach the gospel on a sunday or go out to the streets and preach the gospel to people and god's gonna save who he wants

A revival is not necessarily just because I set up a tent and have some guest speaker come in and preach

That doesn't mean god's gonna save anybody Spirit blows where it wants to I think i'm reasonably certain.

I heard paul washer say this too. I do like paul washer One of the things that as you were talking about, uh

I've applied this and it it We don't know each other at all jeremy

But I I don't fall into the same camp as nearly anybody else in this thing, right? I'm a pentecostal and uh as as a

Did it smell that bad brother tommy? I've got a mosquito I have to slap the desk again

I thought she was trying to hit me from the screen Lay hands on you. He has laying hands on me.

Oh my goodness. Anyway, so, uh one of the things that as uh

We have altar we have altar call portions of our service 99 percent of the time in the pentecostal church

There'll be one and uh a lot of times I've when i've preached I haven't had one or uh, there's

There'll be folks who may come to an altar whether they've been asked to or whether they haven't you know

And I don't I don't usually go pray with them and uh I didn't always approach it that way

But I was listening one time and I think it was paul washer But if I might be wrong, so if i'm wrong, don't don't throw a rock at me tyler uh

He said uh, he said that god didn't need me to get them to this place and I can't save them and if If god's taking time to chastise them for something in their life

And why would I try to build them up in a moment when god's trying to tear them down if? God's trying to save them.

Why would I be whispering something in her ear contrary to why and if nothing else for the sake of of Clarity and non -confusion to be there.

I i've always kind of approached it like this My pastor asked me to pray for someone

I will If uh, but if if you go to the altar at my church for something I don't know why you're there

I couldn't I couldn't tell you why you've gone to the altar about something and uh, I can pray

With you or for you From another place where I wouldn't disturb whatever god's doing for you and in you in that moment

And I think that's trusting god. I think to some degree as a leader inside a church that's trusting that God didn't need me to save them.

Can't use me to save them Thing in the world I can do to assist god in any capacity whatsoever so why don't

I just let god have his way with them and Get out of his way and I think in a lot of ways that Is is that speaking to trusting the sovereignty of god as a biblical man brother robert?

I think so I think so and and I I recall myself listening to paul washer speak of the altar call incidences and You know,

I hesitate to even try to to quote him because I don't remember the exact quote again It's been so long since I listened to the sermon, but I think he compared it to Touching the ark.

You're right. Then it was paul washer. He said do not lay your hand on that ark sister It was a woman trying to go pray for somebody at the at the altar.

He said don't touch the ark of god Praise the lord, that's awesome and uh

That's that's it terrifies me a little bit If I can be real with you to think at uh at what point

Do you do you look at god and say I I don't really trust you do this lord. Let me help you with that, right?

You know, that's some jesse duplan this mess, ain't it? Yes, it is May he pentecostal

I don't know. Is he I don't think he's christian. He's not then i'm pretty sure he's not pentecostal agreed

He might be some kind of other critter and the altar call too can become kind of quite showy with everybody gathering around somebody and There you can get into judging somebody's motives and hearts, but On the outside, you know looking in it kind of it can't look kind of showy um,

I just um recently got finished, uh working through ecclesiastes on the bread of the word podcast and I think my favorite verse in the entire book of ecclesiastes is verse 7 chapter 7 verse 13

Consider the work of god who can make straight what he has made crooked I think that Encapsulates what we're talking about very well

The with the sovereignty of god and where we sit in that because Regardless, we cannot straighten what he's made crooked.

We cannot make crooked what he's made straight Can't open doors. He's shut That's right. I'm not open doors.

He's shut. I'm on my brother. This is just how it is is God is god and I am not um, that's right

There's this distinction between man and god and As hard as that is sometimes

This is where we live is we are bookended by the sovereignty of god in adversity and prosperity

And while we're throwing out books um tiny little book by uh, thomas thomas botson

Boston, yep the crook and the lot What to believe when our lot in life is not health wealth and happiness fantastic book

On that one verse in ecclesiastes Who can make straight what he has made crooked and that is that is where we are um with the role of men with the role of biblical men in 2023 is

Recognizing that we cannot make straight what god has made crooked We cannot make crooked what god has made straight that we are we are not god, but we are dependent on god in the good and the bad together

Oh You don't get that much from the presbyterian church.

Hey, man We're just mixing everything together

Pentecostal presbyterian form baptist. We're just hey Hey, that was good. That's good.

It was really good. Tyler. Thank you. Um happy let me uh, let me do the last two questions or End with two questions because I think they're important.

Um, and and everybody can jump in on these questions. So the First one that we want to do is this one the most common advice for a man from the church and I would say the modern church

In the home is to be a servant leader most often the servant part is emphasized with the expectation that everyone else will

Simply love your behavior and fall into place How can we better understand servanthood in the home besides being a doormat

And what does actual biblical leadership look like? And how do we translate that into the home?

It seems like the the best advice that we have for our men is Be a servant leader be a servant leader and we kind of leave out the leader part and focus on the servant part and we get this unrealistic expectation that Well, if I if I just serve serve serve everybody will love it and it will modify behavior

Ah, it doesn't happen that way. No, I think that puts too much on um

Well, we've already established that Human nature is not inherently good. I think that puts too much stock and people will do what

I want if i'm Nice, and it almost becomes like emotional manipulation at that point

Again, your motives are drawn into question Are you serving them so that they'll do what you want them to do in the end?

Well, what's the difference between using service to do that versus using physical strength to do that, right?

You if you're if your motives for why you're doing what you're doing are to draw some kind of a different behavior out of them then you're

Secular humanism 101 right brother claude Yeah, you're trying to get people into doing what you want them to do or something like that yeah, and I would say too that So that you form that question from Uh questions that you've heard before right rob

Right, and I would say that people are putting the wrong emphasis on the incorrect syllable, that's right, so so Take a minute so so I think there's a confusion between um humility and weakness right people assume that just because We we should be served.

We should be servant leaders, but that does not make a man weak If ever there was a strong man, it was our lord.

Jesus christ. Come on, he stooped down And he girded himself

And he washed the disciples feet And he said this If I your lord and master have done this unto you, then you should do it unto one another

Right, so it's there is strength in humility never never confuse

Humility and weakness. I believe vodie bacham said that right because there there is a difference biblical

Humble leadership In the home is the man being submitted first and foremost unto god loving

His wife as he loves him on his own self and willing being willing to give himself that means

Do whatever it takes to care for the family I think that's very very important.

So I think servanthood in the home Does not Demonstrate weakness in any wit biblical servanthood in the home does not demonstrate weakness, but it demonstrates

Strength and it demonstrates faith in god Again, it comes back to that amalgamation of ideologies

Our ideology Our worldview needs to be biblical not secular.

I mean like john said Um Well, you answered the the question that I was gonna skip but you answered it answering both questions here.

Um Anybody else have anything on? Being a servant leader on weakness because the the world gives us this idea of what strength looks like That's right.

And if if we're not if we don't look like that, we're not Exampling that that type of strength and then we're weak um

What what is biblical weakness and biblical strength I think that biblical weakness

All right to define weakness in light of strength to me If if if christ is going to be our example of what's what is strength right and he's almighty

Then we have to look at at other attributes that are his and and determine

If they're present in their own life and I think about things like grace

Right and humility and mercy primarily mercy in this in this next example uh when you're dealing with a toddler and they do something that is

What at what you know dis disobedient to to what degree, you know, you you treat them accordingly as a toddler, right?

You you say don't do that You know you you may you may smack the back of their hand or you may put it out of their reach in the moment

Because you know, it's for their good and You're serving them though in their eyes

There's no way in the world. They could overcome your might right We see christ absolutely

It's it's if it's a bad example because of how much stronger he is than us But the same way that you fear a toddler by serving a toddler

Is as much fear as I see in the lord by serving the those that were going to crucify him the following day So if his strength

Is in any kind of ratio to his mercy? then strong men are merciful men and they're men who aren't

Intimidated by whatever your neighbor can do Jesus said don't fear him who have the power to kill the body and after that can do no more rather fear him who have

Power to destroy both the body and soul in hell. So to show mercy and light of Anything as far as that goes

I think as a direct ratio to Where your strength is in the lord?

Yeah If you were to use something Mildly tangible that you could measure so then the weakness would be the reciprocal of that It would be someone who was very low in mercy someone who takes advantage of situations in the moment

They're down or doesn't show very much grace and forgiveness whenever they have the opportunity You know, that's when jesus says turn the other cheek

It isn't because he's given somebody a better shot is to show that i'm not worried about what you can do to me

In this moment because the one I serve Is greater than you when he stands before pilot that you have no authority except what's been given to you in this moment by the lord to wield

Philippians 2 comes to mind. That's exactly where I was at brother. Say on say on That he was obedient to the point of death even to death on a cross that he um that he took on the humble form of a slave the king james's slave, which is there's a lot of bite in that that is

That is the attitude. We're exhorted to take on And i'm i'm saying this as an unmarried man with no prospects but uh

The reality is this this is the christ were called to imitate that there's absolutely a place for meekness and humility and Being of and self -denial george whitfield once put it that the christian is called to A life of constant self -denial

That it is a it is a christianity is a doctrine of the cross And that is that is our starting point that is where we live is that's right come and die amen

That's right And when we talk about strength when we talk about power it is in light of the fact that the most powerful man that ever lived died

That we might be raised to newness of life in him And so when we talk about leading families there is some continuity between serving and leading there ought to be not in the sense of Manipulation like big john so eloquently put it but we lead

From that place we do lead from a place of serving, but there's also There's also firmness

That there is the shepherd that the shepherd feeds The bible illustrates the shepherd feeding from his own hand

But the shepherd's also carrying a big stick And so you've got to you've got to balance the two here um

Obviously, uh, there are others in the group that can get into more specific applications what that looks like in practice

But I can definitely say from an abstract. Um Theoretical standpoint that there is continuity between service and leadership

This is what? Christianity is that's right. Amen I just want to commend tyler for a second because he just exemplified

It not the the subject that he was talking about but in a different way he just exemplified to me what a biblical man can look like because he he he told us and he admitted i'm in a position where um

I'm, not a head of household. I'm not i'm not married. I don't have any children but yet I can speak to this

Why can he speak to this because he's speaking on the authority of jesus christ through the word of god.

Amen And so that's what we all can do As men and that was an example of a biblical man and we can speak to these social issues like abortion

Absolutely. We don't have to be women to speak to this issue We can speak on the authority of jesus christ through the word of god based on what he said

That person And so later Yes, exactly.

And so tyler, I thank you for being that example to us tonight. I really appreciate it. Amen And and john,

I think I think i'm saying the same thing that you were saying. Um, so I was trying to define

Biblically what weakness would look like and to me and again, I think it's the same what you were saying that biblical

Defined weakness would be abandoning the integrity our our integrity

And trusting in the sovereignty of god where i'm going to handle this on my own handle this in my way and so to me that would be a biblical understanding of weakness

Um, so let's let's go this last question jeremy We're going to start with you since you didn't jump in there on that that last one.

So I want to start with you on this one I think this is important too. How can we as churches grow up biblical men

And maybe some practical application I really just think that I mean it really comes down to I think mainly two things is first being that leader

Like actually doing when I when I say what I would say as a man that we're supposed to be leaders In a sense that we're supposed to be doing what's right

Like no matter what I should be doing what's right? I should be like you mentioned what like the abortion I should be standing up for the unborn

I should be doing I should be the one out there evangelizing. I can't just sit back and preach to people

And expect them to do it. I should be the one out there doing it And when i'm out there doing it i'm calling others to come alongside me not not come behind me

But come alongside me we're going to serve the lord together and and that I to me That's what I see is leadership.

It's not it's not walking in front of people. It's not putting people down It's coming alongside them holding them arm and arm and marching together

So I think that that is one thing that we could we could do as pastors um, but also

Just the the faithful teaching of the word of god I guess if we if we faithfully teach the word of god and just really really dig into the word

And really feed people you you would be surprised you might not be surprised. I just actually experienced this but somebody came to our church and They they're such a longing for reformed theology

And then after the service they said thank you so much for your reformed teaching We don't get that the other place we go and it's like There's such a longing for that and if men would not be cowards in the pulpit

And you know, I know y 'all know some people that were pastors and they're they're reformed but they'll say well

I don't really talk about those things because the people won't understand it. It's like You won't understand it if god wouldn't give you an understanding

So that's right. We what we need to do is go Dig into the word dig into that mind of god's word get those jewels out and give them to the people um, and then lead

I think those are probably the two best examples I can think of.

Amen What about the other guys growing up biblical men in your our churches

I I think that summed it up pretty good. I like this guy. Where'd you find this guy? The lord brings us together

And and jeremy you got a great shape on your beard there Did you just get it trimmed?

No, it just it kind of grows like I don't know good and big john's is back big john's is shaped.

Nice. Yeah Yeah, it took a while. My beard don't grow as fast as claude's It comes in all splotchy like a

I don't know I just had a guy on tuesday night like I saw you you didn't have any facial hair.

Now. You got a full beard and he's like look at me I'm trying to grow it out. He said what can I do to help grow it out? I said become a man

I don't know if you know it or not, but I sell a beard balm and it would help you become a man You just put it let's see. I I looked

I looked baby face. My my cheeks looked like rob's head Hey Hey, hey real quick real quick to what rob and uh, jeremy mentioned about, you know being willing to like, uh,

Tell the truth about abortion abortion is murder and everybody knows it, right? So this is this is so since it's past 9 30 i'll tell this story you can you can use it late maybe or not

Uh, but you were talking about um, you were talking about being willing to stand for abortion, even though we're not women uh

There's some uh got some friends and church members. Um, A couple of years ago down at the abortion mill in knoxville, you know, because that's

It was it's down on ut. It's closed now. Thank god. He the lord answered prayer uh, but Or down on ut campus

So there's kids constantly coming up and down the hill driving walking whatever they're at the abortion mill

They're preaching the gospel and one in inevitably On a regular basis, you would hear women drive by and shout out their windows

You guys don't even have vaginas And Thank god for one of our one of our church members.

She she chased him down to the red light hollering. Oh, I do I do So let me tell you the gospel

All right So i'm i'm done now I gotta go to bed shortly guys I could win my whole life without hearing claude say vagina

I mean and and and the rest of tyler's I could have went the rest of mine and all the tylers

Let's not repeat that All right, you can cut that rob It's live we don't hit it.

Oh, that's true. Well now we're on the hook Is it not the truth? right, yeah, yeah, we

We don't have to be women to think that you have to Like you can't talk about something

Unless you're that particular person. That's absolute nonsense. Is it not likely you can't talk about communism unless you're russian?

I mean Praise god that william wilberforce though not black

Spoke about yes slavery. That's right That's right and praise Women who who stood up that's right there.

So praise the lord for the for them. Um, Let's let's close things up and like we always do and jeremy if you do not mind i'd love to present the gospel

And uh big john, will you close us in prayer when he finishes me on it, too? I don't know the gospel.

I'm just kidding um, well Um To start with the gospel.

I always go with uh, kind of what man's condition is first In in his need for the gospel and his condition is that he's spiritually dead.

He's sinned against a holy righteous Judge of all the earth and because of his sin he has earned

Eternal judgment he sinned Against the eternal law against an eternal judge and he's earned eternal judgment

And that eternal judgment is hell and that's where all of us We're we're born in iniquity.

We're conceived in iniquity. We come forth from our mother's womb Um in iniquity and that's where that's where our we're by nature children of wrath but then you that's man's condition, but god's provision is that Though we are dead lost sinners that he sent forth his son to be born of a virgin

He was born Lived under the law kept the law every jot and tittle of the law fulfilled it all perfectly

Never sinned one time always did righteous And went to a roman cross where he was crushed

For the sins of his people as it says in matthew 1 21 for he shall save his people from their sins

He was crushed under the the the wrath of his father It says in isaiah 53 it pleased the lord to crush him and it pleased him because justice was being meted out upon Christ in place of his people

Um, it was buried We we know three days later rose again was seen over 500 people where most of those people went to their martyr's death not they would not deny that they saw the risen christ and Ascended up to the right hand of the father.

He sat down victorious over sin Then satan hell and reigns and until he comes again one day praise god

Father we come to you in jesus name So very thankful for all that you've done God, I pray that you you take the things that were said on this podcast tonight

And you work it through your however means you choose for your own glory for the church's edification and to the salvation of the lost

Lord, I pray that you bless the men that are on here That you bless the rest of the men that that are on here tonight god I pray that you

That you help us all maintain personal integrity theological integrity that we become

Become accountable to each other on this podcast and to others lord that we hold one another accountable

Lord I pray the love and mercy reign forever among us god that you be glorified when everything we do is in jesus name

I pray amen. Amen Thank you gentlemen for your conversation tonight and thank you guys for watching we hope to see you all real soon

Thank you for joining the laborers podcast Remember jesus is king

Live in the victory of christ speak with the authority of christ and go share the gospel of christ