The Laborers' Podcast- Biblical Masculinity

Welcome to the labors podcast.

We are thankful that you're joining us this evening tonight.

We're going to be talking about biblical manhood.

Are we to be men who sit on the couch watch football and wrestling?

Are we to be men who are avid sportsmen that can that know how to field dress a deer and

And bring the meat home or we TV dads that are pushovers.

What does the Bible say about who we should be.

Stay tuned and we'll talk about that tonight.

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Now, let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast.

Welcome again to the labors podcast.

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We are with The here I stand theology podcast the happy Calvinist Claude.

Good to have you with us.

We are with Big John Community

community church real life real real life community church.

That's it.

It just just left me we got Tyler with us bread of the word podcast and we have a

new gentleman with us tonight and I Feel like he is joining the network.

We have we've been having some discussions off -air with with Jeremy and I feel like that he's gonna be joining the network.

Jeremy let people know who you are.

Where you're at and and about yourself.

Well, my name is Jeremy Hall.

I'm a pastor a small church in Conway, South Carolina called Faith Reformed

Faith Reformed Baptist Church.

We got planted about almost three years ago now we've been marching through Romans verse by verse

we're in Romans 10 right now, so I'm married with three kids and

my oldest daughter is Pregnant and due to have my first grandbaby

this weekend.

That's about all y 'all need to know about me.

Amen.

Amen.

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Let's get into the topic tonight.

We want to talk about biblical manhood.

In my man because I can I can go feel dress a deer or Should

I model myself after? TV dads and be a pushover in the family.

What does the Bible say about who we are to be as men?

So let's let's go with the first question.

Describe the difference in a man that is driven Yet content with

faithfulness Versus a man that seeks the applause of men.

Big John since you're in first in line you want to go first?

I'll try.

Okay, the difference between a man that is that is driven yet content with faithfulness versus a man that

seeks the applause of men.

Well.

What's that what I'll take the last one first.

Obviously anytime that you're seeking the applause of men you'll find yourself in direct

direct Opposition to the gospel, right?

Everything everything that the church does and everything that men of God do should be to glorify and honor

God should be to point all of all of the world to Jesus Christ.

And if we're seeking the applause of men, then that means by definition you're looking for people to you,

right?

So that's at its at its absolute best as

Wildly narcissistic and at its absolute worst is radically condemnable as

sin by Scripture.

And I don't I don't know that I find The word I was reading the question right when you

asked me Between a driven yet content with faithfulness.

So in this question, are you asking?

That they both driven and content in their faithfulness.

Is that what you're saying?

Yeah well Driven as in I think most men

are driven by nature that we want to.

You know, we want to better ourselves.

We want to do better for our family.

We want to do better for our children.

Ambition and ambition.

Yeah, I think that's not natural for men to want to do that and yet

We also can find contentment in the sovereignty of God

Places he has us.

I don't know that they're mutually exclusive though.

Right.

I mean so let's take I don't know.

Let's take Paul.

From the Bible, would you consider Paul content his own definition of his life was one of contentment, right?

Name another apostle more driven than brother Paul, right?

So I think I think to some degrees I

Would say driven is great.

So long as you're driven by the right thing.

So for instance, uh Why do you want to be a good dad?

Do you want to be a good dad?

Because you don't want your kids to talk bad about you whenever you're old.

You don't want to your kids to tell your grandkids Terrible things about how you really didn't care or do you want to be a good

dad because you want to exemplify Christ in your home.

Example of who Jesus is I think maybe more than saying driven is what drives you

to be?

What is your motive?

Because There's a happy Calvinist on here.

Let me listen to a sermon one time called ten shekels in a shirt or something like that.

So part of the thing that the man said in that sermon was you can have totally

wrong motives for doing right things and Actually be guilty of the exact same

things of the world.

The world says he who dies with the most toys wins the church.

We say the one who has led the most people to Christ has had a successful life and I would I would incur that the

Last one is more truthful however, if your motives for seeing souls brought to the

glory of God is so that you can I don't know have a Full tally beside your name then you're no better off than the

former, right?

That's right.

That's right.

So, uh, I don't know if I answered your question though to be honest with you I would say that the difference between being driven and content in

Christ is that you seek to glory and honor God and everything that you do including and

up to and including your family and all aspects of it, whether it be your marriage to your wife or the

fatherhood you have towards your children or the Fatherhood you have to other people's children who don't have a dad or the

example that you are at work.

You know, where do you stop?

Anybody want to jump on that before I get to the next question?

No, I would just I think Jesus reinforces that it to us in the scripture a good man now the good treasure of his

heart Bringing forth good things right.

And an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil things.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, right motive.

All right.

Oh, no, I don't have.

Tell her I think this next question I'm thinking this will be Okay for you because

you know Previously when the biblical manhood podcast was coming up We talked about going over the Denver statement

and I know that you looked it up and looked over it.

Got it right here.

But as we Between then and now I was looking into that and

different perspectives.

So here's my question.

I recently heard a criticism on the Denver statement Danvers statement being a

Compilation by complementarians describing biblical manhood or womanhood.

Being a complementarian statement.

It doesn't go far enough.

They say in that it can still be hijacked by egalitarians.

The more biblical view they say is biblical patriarchy.

Where would you land on that?

Okay, well I read that question and honestly I've racked my brain on that one a good bit this week and

Honestly, I don't See from the Denver statement how it doesn't go far enough in my own

personal observation.

So I'm not sure what exactly it they think it's missing.

I would love to see specifics on what exactly they think should have been included here.

But we do have to recognize that the Denver statement is on some level Reactionary that the

the statements the six statements on the the front page for the reasons for putting this together

had to do with feminism and some of the philosophies of Sigmund Freud the sexualization

of humanity and some of that.

So you have some Aspect where it's responding to cultural shifts and so

that might be part of what they're getting at.

Maybe that it's responding more to a culture than The solid issue.

I could think that as to whether or not complementarianism is

biblically consistent I think it depends on how we define

complementarianism and Biblical patriarchy there are some differing views.

I've come across on what we mean by patriarchy.

So we I think the first route to handling that side of it would be to start defining terms.

So what are the did you did you look into that?

So what are what how would you define?

Patriarchy and then.

The other part of this statement, like you said the important thing is to do is to to define terms.

So the idea of patriarchy Bare -bones, I'm typically

refers to the man as this this headship.

I mean you have ideas of headship in Complementarianism with the father being the head of the

household the husband being the head of the the wife.

But where that seems to get worked out with?

Biblical patriarchy from what I've come across Generally involves the woman does not work.

She does not have a role in politics like Governor there's no female

governors.

I've come across some that state that they should not vote.

And some of those kinds of outworkings that it is only men outside the house.

And so I guess it depends on are we using that definition of patriarchy in In the

critique of the Denver statements or something a bit more.

Dare I say progressive something a little looser around the collar but as to what

complementarianism means is the idea that man, and woman have complementarity that is

that they're they're designed in different ways, but that they are Attuned to each

other.

Go back to Genesis 2.

I will make a helper for him.

Corresponding to him and that's as close to the Hebrew I think is I'm aware of that we can

get is corresponding to that.

There's something directly relational between how Eve was designed and how Adam was designed

that they To use the term complement each other.

Yeah, and and that plays into marriage that plays into the family dynamics that plays

into A number of aspects of the way we look at humanity.

Is that man and woman?

Operate together that they bring out different aspects of each other.

If someone would like to expand on that a little bit further but the general idea with complementarianism.

Based on what's in the Denver statement is that there is you have man?

Woman male and female and God designed them each in a specific way for specific purposes.

They don't have the same roles necessarily, but that doesn't demean or belittle one or the other.

Correct me if I'm if I heard you, right?

I want to try to restate What I heard him what I was hearing

so with even with biblical patriarchy because I brought to the fact that these folks were saying that there was

complementarian in Complementarians didn't go far enough.

So we lean towards biblical patriarchy.

And what I heard you say was even even within biblical patriarchy.

There's a spectrum.

Yes.

So you could you could be way off in the ditch with patriarchy.

Yes.

Okay, so I mean there's there's digits that you can fall in even even in that arena as well.

But then it wouldn't be biblical.

True right.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

I Knew I asked you that for a reason.

I knew you you had studied up on that one.

I speak for Jeremy, but I think me and Paul or me and I claw both agree.

We're glad you asked him to.

That's right, I ain't no shame in my game that's right.

Well, let's get off.

Of critiques and all that.

Let's let's get back to the the nitty -gritty and find out what the Bible says.

The next question Claude why is personal integrity a quality of a biblical man?

Well, I first of all So the as to your question Why is biblical

integrity important as it relates to the big to the godly man, right?

So number one We are to be a.

We are to demonstrate Not just we are did it to demonstrate to our family to our

friends to the world in general and to show forth

the saving power of of the Lord in our lives.

How God makes a man a new creature.

And I know All men aren't called to be pastors or elders.

But the the elder qualifications in first Timothy particularly for example

Are just a good overall guideline for men to really men and women alike to

really hold to In in the larger sense, but right above

reproach.

So a godly man should be above reproach.

Regardless whether he's an elder pastor godly man should be above reproach.

The husband of one wife temperate sensible respectable hospitable apt to teach.

Not addicted to wine or pugnacious.

This is the living standard version.

They're living standard Bible.

Not contentious meaning not contentious, but consider it peaceable free from the love of money.

Leading his household.

Well having his children in submission.

With all dignity right because it says if man does not know how to lead his household How shall

he take care of the Church of God?

So Biblical integrity is just something that should be

demonstrated or as a result of Regeneration that will be demonstrated.

Because the fruit of the spirit of a believer is according to Galatians.

Love joy peace patience kindness goodness meekness temperance.

Right self -control against such there is no law.

That's what the book that's what Paul taught the Galatian Church, right?

So I think what happens a lot of times is that in

in Christian circles, there's so much of a Hash

is what I'll say Vance Havner the old preacher used to say I don't eat hash at home because I know what's in it now

don't he'd eat hash away when I'm away from home because I don't know what's in it because it's just an Amalgamation of a bunch of

stuff thrown into a pot and fried up, right?

So I think what's happened in the church world is there's been this amalgamation of ideologies.

Right about what a man should be what a man shouldn't be right?

What should what should what should a man do?

What shouldn't a man do when there shouldn't be an admixture at all?

It should be we should be going to the book to see what God requires of a godly man and what

a godly man looks like.

And the old the old Puritans can't remember who what his name is right now, but godly man's picture

one the one the old Puritans wrote a book godly man's picture which you know typifies what a godly

man should look like.

So.

Let me ask two questions branched off that integrity question so As far as

Your personal life.

Mm -hmm behind -the -scenes life.

Yep.

Do you think it's wise? for a man to have safeguards as far as

accountability or Things things that help

keep you away from sin when nobody else's are around.

Do you think that's a wise thing to do for for me and unequivocally?

Absolutely.

Yes.

Okay.

And here's my second.

Because you're an idiot if you don't.

Adrian rogers back when I was in high school I I skipped semester exams. My

senior year had to go back a semester just so I could go to the uh, Sbc

pastors conference to hear adrian rogers preach.

And i'll never forget it as a high school senior.

The message that he preached to that.

To that pastors conference. It was called the playboys payday.

He said any man That claims he's not tempted or doesn't look at other women is one of three

things.

He's no man.

He's superman.

Or he's a liar.

And that's the truth.

Right.

That's right.

That's that's.

Sorry to keep going on but that's that's part of why it's so important for a godly man

uh to be a active connected Dedicated member of

a local church because you have personal accountability with people that you come in contact with

on a regular basis.

To keep you in check.

Sorry next part.

No, no, that's good.

And uh.

Maybe you other guys can maybe give one other piece of advice in that area for personal integrity and my

second question Which I will also ask for.

Um advice would be especially for for young young men or

Young men seeking or having the desire to teach having desire to be a pastor.

Um theological integrity um how to how to keep yourself from

from going off in into ditches or following their own person or becoming

too.

A cage stage is the term that has been coined lately.

Um, you know, you you learn this new doctrine and you're so excited about it.

You just want to rattle everybody's cages.

Why don't you believe in this?

So so how can we maintain theological integrity as as young men people looking

as older men?

Um, and and what are other good pieces of advice for personal integrity?

Any other guys.

Well, I I'd uh as since i'm not a calvinist I wouldn't be in the cage stage according to.

So, uh, but uh in terms of well in terms of personal integrity

uh simple Extremely simple things that uh should be done

from a man's perspective is Thank you.

You're uh Probably your digital life is probably the most Secluded of

all the things that you do, right?

Everybody that's on here is on either a computer or a tablet or one of all three of them and Most folks

carry a cell phone in their pocket that's capable of doing almost everything that their computer at your desk is capable of

doing and uh.

You know, there's a myriad of things you can get into i'm sure if you wanted to on your telephone.

So the simplest thing for me is always having all my stuff open always

it's just a What'd you call it a safeguard?

Yeah, it's something everything that.

Everything that I have is logged on to almost the same thing.

And my wife knows my passwords better than my kids know my passwords because I need to ask them.

They're going to be the ones that log it on so.

Uh, it's best.

I always find it best to always keep things like this open.

For instance, my youtube Is on the television and you can turn on my television

and pull up my youtube watch history you know now.

Again, this is wildly simple.

But it requires that you and i'm sure there's still a way you could probably bypass these things.

I Don't really know how but if i'm sure someone out there wouldn't know how the thing is that's

where it takes having A relationship with somebody and I suggest not just with your wife.

But somebody other than your wife that ask you hard questions and know if you're trying to be deceptive.

Yep.

Somebody that whenever you start talking around the subject instead of answering it, they they nail you to the wall and say

I'm just going to ask you straight up if you can't answer me straight up then I know we've got a problem and uh, Again, these are very

very very simple things.

I think another area That isn't as commonly talked about From a minister's point of

view is integrity and sermon preparation yep as i've gone to other

churches here lately and have uh applied for Pastors positions i've been asked

Every single church if I prepared my own sermons.

Wow.

And I don't know that this is a thing that everybody must be but undoubtedly somebody somewhere is dealing with it because I keep

getting Asked this question and i'm in a box and uh.

That's something that as you were talking about being a above reproach.

One of the things that I think you ought to be able to do is you ought to be able to supply your sermon notes

to anybody at any point whatsoever and If you've got a problem

sharing anything that's on your computer you've got a problem period that's right and uh

that goes for not only your uh spiritual integrity.

When you're talking about what your eyes are looking at and what your ears are listening to we're also dealing with what your

Spiritual integrity is in terms of what you say.

Is it something that god's done in you or is this something god's done in somebody else and you've wrote all of it down.

What was the southern baptist convention deal a couple years ago?

Somebody wound up telling a lie and and used plagiarism for the last southern baptist convention leader.

Who I think was telling a lie when he told it and was plagiarizing somebody before him.

It's like third levels of nonsense.

If that's a dramatic comedy or not, but uh, but uh, yeah.

In any case.

Well, hey, i've got something else to add but let's let jeremy.

Jeremy's not got to speak on.

Let's go ahead.

Jeremy speak on this for a minute.

Theological integrity.

Come on.

Red.

Well.

Let me let me mention this beforehand.

I looked up that book godly man's picture.

That's thomas watson.

Okay, thomas watson.

Thank you, i haven't read the book but Thomas watson's well trusted.

So yeah, he's a good one.

I might get that for us for the men of the church.

Um, but theological integrity really I think.

Um.

We've kind of come.

As americans we've kind of got away from this and I think as reformed baptist and just

reformers.

We were kind of going back to it, but some of the creeds and confessions um now.

Obviously we we know and understand that not.

That's not our standard.

Right the scriptures are standard.

But if we're outside of a creed or confession, we we better have a very very good

reason to be outside of it.

Yeah.

But I I think those those help kind of like bumpers in a in um in

bowling they keep they keep us out of the gutters.

Um, but that's they're not there as that they're not there as the object that we're focused on.

So we're focused on the scriptures and and and dealing with the scriptures, but we have creeds and confessions that kind of keep us there

um when we're when we're not you know, I think another part of that is

as pastors or some of us even uh, maybe not even pastors or.

That before we're not pastors is our pastor should be able.

We should be able to go to our pastor with any question theologically um and if he doesn't know the

answer to it because there's some you just don't.

There's no answer to where it's not sufficient but we should at least be able to go give it an answer to it

or say I don't know the exact thing on this but John calvin taught this or john gill

taught that um.

So we have we have that in our pastors.

And in our creeds and confessions and in our local body and I think to go.

Was it?

Was it big john?

Is that what I said?

Yes, sir.

He's he's talked about having somebody there that will hold you accountable.

I think that's part of being a biblical man is I have Uh men

that would hold me accountable and I hold them accountable too that's part of being a biblical man.

Not being um autonomous and you know, I got this don't worry about me.

That's right.

I don't none of us have it.

I think uh, I think about brother paul washer uh I used one of his quotes several times.

It's fantastic as far as i'm concerned.

Uh I think he was talking about his children uh, they were uh talking about the potential for his

children courting later on in life and He said something to the effect of uh, he wouldn't let them leave.

Uh the house, you know until there was uh, until he was sure of their intentions.

I can't hang work and he said don't you trust your kids?

He said no.

No, I don't trust my kids.

He said I don't trust their dad.

And I thought I thought man, that's great.

So there's been times my kids wanted wanted to do something.

I was like no I ain't doing that and somebody said I think it's my wife.

She said do you not trust him?

I said absolutely not.

Without hesitation, no, I don't trust him.

Why not?

I said I know them that's and I don't trust their dad.

That's.

And I approach it this way with my wife too.

I have several times I said, uh, I encourage You to check behind

what I say if I say something about the bible look it up.

Look it up.

I'm not i'm not immune to being wrong.

I mean i'm not.

You know, uh if i'm doing something or saying something that you don't think is flush.

Take it to somebody if you I mean get a second opinion, uh.

And bring them bring them to the house and have them because here's what here's what I think about it.

If you love somebody you'd correct them.

That's right chance to correct them.

You wouldn't let them keep steering it until they completely destroy their life and everybody around them.

Loving them Is doing the hard thing in the moment, which is I don't know maybe making them mad for a little bit.

That's right.

You brought up paul washer and here's one of the things.

And it's been so long ago since I listened to this series of his I think it was on marriage and family.

But this is one of the things that I learned from him that I've I found so helpful.

And of course i'm gonna mess it up.

It's not an exact quote, but it's basically what I learned from him.

He spoke of coming home.

And Relieving your wife and taking care of the children taking them off her hands and taking care of the children.

And he talked about me and saying well, you know, i'm tired.

He's like you're supposed to be you're supposed to go to bed time.

Yeah, and I I found that so helpful.

You know when I've when I work.

And and i'm tired.

You don't really have time to to drift and and wander and go to other places.

That's right, and I found that so helpful.

That's good.

You're supposed to be tired.

Yeah, it takes a burden off of me.

I know i'm wrong.

Well ecclesiastes 10 Says that a wise man's heart is in his right

hand, but a fool's heart is in his left and in that in a in an age in a context

where you work with your hands where you were Tending fields when you were making stuff.

You generally led with your right hand.

So the wise person is it's poetry, but it's is depicted as having his heart in his

active hand.

And there's a there's a beautiful painting of saint augustine.

Where he's got his heart in one hand.

And then he's got his eyes turned out to the window.

There's a big ball of light and on on the light is the word truth.

And so the light comes in the window and it illuminates his heart.

And augustine's often depicted in renaissance art as Having his heart in his hand that he's

he's pondering and he's studying it.

He's examining it.

And I think there's something to be said about that.

Um, definitely in the realm of accountability in some of this that we should have Um guardrails

built in we should have fellowship.

We should have people sharpening one another.

Amen, we should be examining the root of things.

We should be getting down into the nitty -gritty of the what and the why.

When it comes to a heart that the bible says is full of deceit it's full of wickedness, yeah

this this is a huge thing, this is a Honestly, you might call this a pandemic in

modern culture with not just christian men but men in general is the

issue of integrity the issue of conduct, um, we're looking at

200 page documents detailing, um christian colleges that have Been

covering for abuse for decades.

Yeah, we're seeing this kind of stuff.

This is basically a pandemic.

This is a This is a detrimental thing that we are missing.

And that is great bringing a great deal of hurt on the church Is bringing a great deal of um hurt

to the witness of the church.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This has ramifications and this is worth getting right.

I think about robbie zacharias whenever you were talking about that in that moment.

I think about how a You know seemingly a life That was

lived in service You know in service to the lord and academic pursuits of

theology and things and then You know and To have

the Testimony of him now that you have it.

It uh that that broke my heart so bad to uh to read the documents that came out and to listen to

some of the things that his own kids Had to go on their ministry's website and

apologize to people and I think I wish people would understand

that You are not immune To this kind of thing this there's no

there's no button That is installed salvation that says that won't stick to me

anymore.

It's like a teflon coat and there's that is not whatsoever and and we gotta

we gotta quit acting like I.

I agree with what brother claude said a while ago.

We're to be above reproach, but we're never to act like we're above reproach.

That's right supposed to be able to be talked to you shouldn't ever Say to anybody who questions you

how dare you question me?

That's right saying that that's right.

And uh,.

Yeah I I agree and galatians, uh again, I think it's i'm pretty sure it's galatians.

That's where paul addresses that same issue and he says this if you But you're spiritual see your

brother overtaken.

In a fault you restore such in one you who are spiritual restore such a one in the spirit of

meekness.

And then he says this comma considering yourself.

Lest you also be tempted.

Yes, that's it.

That's exactly right.

And and rob one more can I add one more, uh, absolutely for theological integrity.

Theological integrity for the godly man, uh is attained and

and You know, I I guess progressively built up right because we're we're never gonna be we're never gonna

be uh good this out of eternity.

But uh, amen another yeah another point of hold on

there we go.

Um.

Uh, another point of theological integrity for godly man when it comes to you know

actual Knowing the scriptures and understanding the text and rightly dividing the

word.

Theological integrity doesn't come from Me spending my time

all my time reading.

One man's commentary one man's writing or listening to one man's preaching but it means that

I Go and I like when we're when we're uh studying every week for this sermon, right?

We actually Go to different commentaries to see and to test.

Uh, like what?

Jeremy said there.

Uh, you know that like the guardrails in the confessions we go to the confessions and we go to different

commentaries.

I mean matthew henry's fantastic, but we don't just read matthew henry.

You read john calvin you read john gill you read alexander mclaren you read all these other,

you know commentaries.

Because there will be an overall consensus of truth throughout church history.

Always there will always be a consensus of truth and guess what?

If we are coming up with some new brand new thought and no new idea about

what a scripture says.

We're probably not right.

If it's a brand new thought and a brand new idea about what the scripture says because there's nothing new under heaven and the word

of god and so biblical theological integrity comes from being able to

To brawl or to view and to hear a wide spectrum of commentary

on biblical text.

But you have to stay grounded in the text itself.

Well, i'll go ahead and admit that i'm finding myself To a degree guilty of

that, you know seeing something in the text and but I I threw it out.

Um, like I I threw it out this this past week to to you guys and i'll throw it out to some other people to

to see.

If if what i'm seeing that lines up with scripture does it line up with the original language and you know I'm

learning that the consensus is what what i'm seeing or what I thought I saw.

It doesn't really line up with the biblical text the original language and so i've got to make steer and make a

correction in my thinking.

I I still think there's a connection there.

It just may not be where I thought it was right, and so um, yeah, that's

Tremendous and it's tremendously important to say.

Once you learn that what you're thinking is not the consensus to say step back.

That's right.

And reevaluate and it's not easy to do but but that is that is

a evidence of uh biblical integrity of godly of being a godly

biblically Integral and not integral.

Yeah having godly and biblical Integrity.

I just wanted to ask one clarification on something that you were saying tyler um when you were talking about the heart being in the

hand the right hand and being You know kind of put out forward in front of the man.

The word that I was thinking when you were describing that was the word exposed is that what you were getting at.

That the heart is exposed.

Yes, it's exposed to correction.

It's exposed to truth.

It's exposed to To sin or or the sin that's there.

Okay, okay.

That that makes a lot of sense and I I love that analogy.

Jeremy i'm glad you come back because I wanted to go to you for the next question there was a uh

I got my chicken coop out here.

And I have a motion sensor light on it.

And the motion sensor light came on and my dog was going crazy.

Oh so my family's kind of freaking out thinking there's a coyote or Something out here.

So I just had to go make sure my chickens were okay With you and dan

would have a lot to talk with because he's up in new york and I have chickens and ducks and I think they've they've

had a An enemy to the to the bird family there.

Oh, we have two we had 20 21 of them and now i'm down to nine.

Oh, no.

Yeah, wow, so I want to find what it is right exactly exactly need it

this um this next question.

How is how is trusting in the sovereignty of god a trait of the biblical man

and you want me to answer that yes.

Um personally I would say that as

the leader in my family and Supposed to be in my community and in my

church.

The fact that I can rest in god's sovereignty gives others rest around me if they see me

like you know the the house payments due and the the money hasn't come in

and i'm running around frantic and And worried about everything in the world and having you know

Panic attacks or whatever it is and It's going to

affect those around me.

Where when I go, you know.

The lord says you're going to take care of me and he can he could um pay

his disciples taxes.

With a coin out of a fish's mouth I'm, pretty sure he can put money in my bank account

and and You know, that's I think that's one good aspect of it.

I think another one is when we go back to the creation mandate.

And I don't know if you guys are all on board with this, but you know, we're called to have dominion.

And that flows out of I mean god god has perfect dominion, right?

But he's created us in his image and called us to to have dominion in the land, so we

go forth and and With first and foremost with the gospel message

um and seeing God save his people.

Um while we're resting in his sovereignty as well, you know, like um, I think it was

big john earlier said, you know, there there's some people that say, you know.

They count as the the numbers of people that they've led to christ well.

For me.

Every person i've preached the gospel to i've led to christ now.

Then they may not be born again.

But I let every single one of them to christ and I for me I don't take numbers like that.

Like that's right.

It doesn't matter to me because that's not my my department is taking the gospel to people

and then god does.

The the saving amen.

Amen, I was going to say this speaks to church leadership, too.

Yeah, because I mean we can say we trust in the sovereignty of god.

But then our our behavior and our methodology in church is going to speak to.

Where we land on that?

Yeah, I think that's what you were touching on a little bit.

Yeah.

Yeah, if we're I think to bring up this is a little um.

Uh, I don't I can't think of the word it's very popular subject right now but with like revivalism like.

Yeah, why would I set up a tent and think i'm gonna have a revival and god's gonna save a bunch of people.

I'd just preach the gospel on a sunday or go out into the streets and preach the gospel to people and god's gonna Save who he wants.

A revival is not necessarily just because I set up a tent and have some guest speaker come in and preach.

That doesn't mean god's gonna save anybody.

The spirit blows where it wants to.

I think i'm reasonably certain.

I heard paul washer say this too.

I do like paul washer.

One of the things that as you were talking about, uh I've i've applied this and it

it.

We don't know each other at all jeremy, but I I don't fall into the same camp as nearly anybody else in this thing, right?

I'm a pentecostal and uh as as a.

Smell that bad brother.

Tommy.

I've got a mosquito.

I have to slap the desk again.

I thought she was trying to hit me from the screen.

Lay hands on you.

She has laying hands on me.

Oh my goodness.

Anyway, so, uh one of the things that As uh We have

altar we have altar call portions of our service 99 of the time in a pentecostal church.

There'll be one and a lot of times I've when i've preached I haven't had one

or uh, there's There'll be folks who may come to an altar whether they've been

asked to or whether they haven't you know.

And I don't I don't usually go pray with them and uh I didn't always approach it that

way.

But I was listening one time and and I think it was paul washer, but if I might be wrong.

So if i'm wrong, don't don't throw a rock at me tyler.

Uh He said that god didn't need me to get them to this place and

I can't save them and if If god's taking time to chastise them

for something in their life Then why would I try to build them up in a moment when god's trying to tear them down?

And god's trying to save them.

Why would I be whispering something in her ear contrary?

And if nothing else for the sake of of Clarity and non -confusion to be there.

I i've always kind of approached it like this If my pastor asked me to pray for someone I will

If uh, but if if you go to the altar at my church for something I don't know why you're there I

couldn't I I couldn't tell you why you've gone to the altar about something and uh, I can pray

with you or for you.

From another place where I wouldn't disturb whatever god's doing for you and in you in that moment.

And I think that's trusting god.

I think to some degree as a as a leader inside a church that's trusting that God didn't need me to save them.

Can't use me to save them.

Thing in the world I can do to assist god in any capacity whatsoever.

So why don't I just let god have his way with them and Get out of his way and

I think in a lot of ways that Is is that speaking to trusting the sovereignty of god as a biblical man

brother robert, I think so I think so and and I I recall myself listening to paul washer speak of

the altar call Incidences and You know, I hesitate to even try to to quote him

because I don't remember the exact quote again It's been so long since I listened to the sermon, but I think he compared it to

Touching the ark.

You're right.

Then it was paul washer.

He said do not lay your hand on that ark sister.

It was a woman trying to go pray for somebody at the at the altar and he said don't touch the ark of god.

Praise the lord.

That's awesome.

And uh.

That's that's it terrifies me a little bit If I can be real with you to think at

uh.

At what point?

Do you do you look at god and say I I don't really trust you do this lord.

Let me help you with that, right?

You know, that's some jesse duplan this mess, ain't it?

Yes it is.

Is he pentecostal?

I don't know.

Is he?

I don't think he's christian.

He's not.

Then i'm pretty sure he's not pentecostal agreed.

He might be some kind of other critter and the altar call too can become kind of quite showy

with everybody gathering around somebody and There you can get into judging

somebody's motives and hearts, but On the outside, you know looking in it kind of it can't

look kind of showy.

Um, I just um recently got finished, uh working through ecclesiastes on the bread of the word

podcast and I think my favorite verse in the entire book of ecclesiastes is verse 7 chapter

7 verse 13.

Consider the work of god who can make straight what he has made crooked.

I think that Encapsulates what we're talking about very well.

With the sovereignty of god and where we sit in that because regardless.

We cannot straighten what he's made crooked.

We cannot make crooked what he's made straight.

Can't open doors.

He's shut.

That's right.

I'm not open doors.

He's shut.

I'm on my brother.

This is just how it is is God is god and I am not.

Um, that's right.

Is there's this distinction between man and god and as hard as that

is sometimes.

This is where we live is we are bookended by the sovereignty of god in

adversity and prosperity.

And while we're throwing out books um tiny little book by uh, thomas thomas

botson Boston.

Yep, the crook and the lot.

What to believe when our lot in life is not health wealth and happiness.

Fantastic book on that one verse in ecclesiastes Who can make straight what he has made crooked and

that is that is where we are um with the role of men with the role of biblical men

in 2023 is Recognizing that we cannot make straight what god has made crooked.

We cannot make crooked what god has made straight that we are we are not god.

But we are dependent on god in the good and the bad together.

You don't get that much from the presbyterian church, hey, man.

We're just mixing everything together.

Pentecostal presbyterian form baptist.

We're just hey.

Hey, that was good.

That's good.

It's really good.

Tyler.

Thank you.

Um happy.

Let me uh, let me do the last two questions or End with two questions because I think they're important.

Um, and and everybody can jump in on these questions.

So the First one that we want to do is this one the most common advice for a man

From the church and I would say the modern church In the home is to be a servant leader.

Most often the servant part is emphasized with the expectation that everyone else will

Simply love your behavior and fall into place.

How can we better understand servanthood in the home? besides being a doormat.

And what does actual biblical leadership look like and how do we translate that into the home?

It seems like the the best advice that we have for our men is Be a servant leader be a servant

leader.

And we kind of leave out the leader part and focus on the servant part and we get this

unrealistic expectation that Well, if I if I just serve serve serve.

Everybody will love it and it will modify behavior.

It doesn't happen that way.

No, I think that puts too much on um.

Well, we've already established that Human nature is not inherently good.

I think that puts too much stock and people will do what I want if i'm Nice, and it almost becomes

like emotional manipulation at that point.

Again, your motives are drawn into question.

Are you serving them so that they'll do what you want them to do in the end?

Well, what's the difference between using service to do that versus using physical strength to do that, right?

If you're if your motives for why you're doing what you're doing are to draw some kind of a different

Behavior out of them then you're Secular humanism 101 right

brother claw.

Yeah, you're trying to trick people into doing what you want them to do or something like that.

Yeah, and I would say too that So that you form that question

from Uh questions that you've heard before right rob.

Right, and I would say that people are putting the wrong emphasis On the incorrect syllable.

That's right so.

So so I think there's a confusion between um humility and weakness

right people assume that just because We we should be served.

We should be servant leaders, but that does not make a man weak.

No, if ever there was a strong man, it was our lord.

Jesus christ.

Come on, he stooped down And he girded himself.

And he washed the disciples feet.

And he said this If I your lord and master have done this unto you, then you should do it unto one

another.

Right, so it's there is strength in humility never

never confuse Humility and weakness.

I believe voddie bachem said that right because there there is a difference

biblical Humble.

Humble leadership in the home is the man being submitted first and

foremost unto god loving His wife as he loves him

on his own self and willing being willing to give himself.

That means do whatever it takes to care for the family.

I think that's very very important.

So I think servanthood in the home Does not Demonstrate weakness

in any wit.

Biblical servanthood in the home does not demonstrate weakness, but it demonstrates Strength and

it demonstrates faith in god.

Again, it comes back to that amalgamation of ideologies.

Our ideology Our worldview needs to be biblical

not secular.

I mean like john said Um.

Well, you answered the the question that I was gonna skip but you answered it answering both questions here.

Um Anybody else have anything on?

Being a servant leader on weakness because the the world gives us this idea of what strength looks

like That's right.

And if if we're not if we don't look like that, we're not Exampling that that type of strength and then

we're weak um What what is biblical weakness and biblical strength

I think that biblical weakness All right, so define weakness in light of

strength to me.

If if if christ is going to be our example of what's what is strength right and he's almighty

Then we have to look at at other attributes that are his and and determine

If they're present in our own life, I think about things like Grace

Right and humility and mercy primarily mercy in this in this next

example uh when you're dealing with a toddler and they do something

that is What you know dis disobedient to to what degree, you know, you you treat them accordingly as

they're a toddler, right?

You you say don't do that you know you you may you may uh Smack the back of their hand or you may put

it out of their reach in the moment because you know, it's for their good and You're serving them

though in their eyes.

There's no way in the world.

They could overcome your might right.

We see christ absolutely It's

it's if it's a bad example because of how much stronger he is than us but the same way that you fear a toddler

By serving a toddler Is as much fear as I see in the lord by serving the those that were going to crucify him the

following day.

So if his strength Is in any kind of ratio to his mercy

then strong men are merciful men and they're men who aren't

intimidated By whatever your neighbor can do jesus said Don't fear him who have the

power to kill the body and after that can do no more rather fear him who have power to Destroy both the body and soul

in hell.

So to show mercy and light of Anything as

far as that goes I think as a direct ratio to

Where your strength is in the lord?

Yeah if you were to use something Mildly tangible that you could measure so then

the weakness would be the reciprocal of that.

It would be someone who was very low in mercy someone who takes advantage of

situations in the moment.

They're down or doesn't show very much grace and forgiveness whenever they have the opportunity.

You know, that's when jesus says turn the other cheek.

It isn't because he's given somebody a better shot is to show that i'm not worried about what you can do to me

In this moment because the one I serve Is greater than you when he stands before polity that you have no

authority except what's been given to you in this moment by the lord to wield.

Philippians 2 comes to mind.

That's exactly where I was at brother.

Say on say on.

That he was obedient to the point of death even to death on a cross that he

um that he took on the humble form of a slave the king james's slave.

Which is there's a lot of bite in that that is.

That is the attitude.

We're exhorted to take on.

And i'm i'm saying this as an unmarried man with no prospects but uh.

The reality is this this is the christ we're called to imitate that there's absolutely a place

for meekness and humility and Being of and self -denial george

whitfield once put it that the christian is called to a life of constant self -denial.

That it is a.

It is a christianity is a doctrine of the cross.

And that is that is our starting point.

That is where we live is that's right come and die.

Amen.

That's right.

And when we talk about strength when we talk about power it is in light of the fact that the most powerful man that

ever lived died.

Mm -hmm.

That we might be raised to newness of life in him.

And so when we talk about leading families.

There is some continuity between serving and leading there ought to be not in the sense of manipulation

like big john.

So eloquently put it but we lead.

From that place.

We do lead from a place of serving, but there's also.

There's also firmness.

That there is the shepherd that the shepherd feeds.

Um, the bible illustrates the shepherd feeding from his own hand.

But the shepherd's also carrying a big stick.

And so you've got to you've got to balance the two here um.

Obviously, uh, there are others in the group that can get into more specific applications what that looks like in practice.

But I can definitely say from an abstract.

Um.

Theoretical standpoints that there is continuity between service and leadership.

Maybe this is what?

Christianity is that's right.

Amen.

I just want to commend tyler for a second because he just exemplified It not

the the subject that he was talking about but in a different way he just exemplified to me what a biblical

man can look like.

Because he he he told us and he admitted i'm in a position where um

I'm, not a head of household.

I'm not i'm not married.

I don't have any children but yet I can speak to this.

Why can he speak to this.

Because he's speaking on the authority of jesus christ through the word of god.

Amen, and so that's what we all can do As men and that was an example of a biblical man and

we can speak to these social issues like abortion.

Absolutely, we don't have to be women to speak to this issue.

We can speak on the authority of jesus christ through the word of god based on what he said.

That person.

And so later.

Yes, exactly.

And so tyler, I thank you for being that example to us tonight.

I really appreciate it.

Amen.

And and john, I think I think i'm saying the same thing that you were saying.

Um, so I was trying to define Biblically what weakness would look like and to me and again, I think

it's the same what you were saying that biblical Defined weakness would be abandoning

The integrity our integrity.

In trusting in the sovereignty of god where i'm going to handle this on my own handle this in my way

and so to me that would be a biblical understanding of weakness.

Um, so let's let's go this last question jeremy.

We're going to start with you since you didn't jump in there on that that last one.

So I want to start with you on this one.

I think this is important too.

How can we as churches? grow up biblical men.

Maybe some practical application.

I really just think that I mean it really comes down to I think mainly two

things is first being that leader.

Like actually doing when I when I say what I would say as a men that we're supposed to be leaders.

In a sense that we're supposed to be doing what's right.

Like no matter what I should be doing what's right.

I should be like you mentioned what like the abortion I should be standing up for the unborn.

I I should be doing I should be the one out there evangelizing.

I can't just sit back and preach to people.

And expect them to do it.

I should be the one out there doing it and when i'm out there doing it I'm calling others to come alongside me not not come

behind me but come alongside me.

We're going to serve the lord together and and that I to me.

That's what I see is leadership.

It's not it's not walking in front of people.

It's not putting people down and sit coming alongside them.

Holding them arm and arm and marching together.

So I think that that is one thing that we could we could do as pastors but also

Just the the faithful teaching of the word of god, I guess if we faith The word of god and just

really really dig into the word um.

And really feed people you you would be surprised.

You might not be surprised.

I just actually experienced this but somebody came to our church and

There's such a longing for reformed theology.

And then after the service they said thank you so much for your reformed teaching.

We don't get that the other place we go and it's like There's such a longing for that and if

men would not be cowards in the pulpit.

And you know, I know y 'all know some people that were pastors and they're they're reformed but they'll say well I don't really talk about

those things because the people won't understand it.

It's like You won't understand it if god want to give you an understanding so We what we need to do is go.

And Dig into the word dig into that mind of god's word get those jewels out and give them to the people

um, and then lead.

I think those are probably the two best examples I can think of amen.

What about the other guys growing up biblical men in your our churches.

I think that summed it up pretty good.

I like this guy.

Where'd you find this guy?

The lord brings us together.

And and jeremy you got a great shape on your beard there.

Did you just get it trimmed?

No, it just it kind of grows like.

I don't know good and big john's is back.

Big john's is shaped.

Nice.

Yeah.

Yeah, it took a while.

My beard don't grow as fast as claus.

It comes in all splotchy like a I don't know.

I just had a guy on tuesday night like I saw you didn't you didn't have any facial hair.

Now you got a full beard and he's like look at me.

I'm trying to grow it out.

He said what can I do to help grow it out?

I said become a man.

I don't know if you know it or not.

But I sell a beard balm and it will help you become a man.

You just put it let's see.

I I looked I looked baby face.

My my cheeks looked like rob's head.

Hey, hey real quick.

Real quick to what rob and uh, jeremy mentioned about, you know being willing to

like, uh,.

Tell the truth about abortion.

Abortion is murder and everybody knows it, right?

So this is this is.

So since it's past 9 30 i'll tell this story you can you can use it late maybe or not.

Uh, but you were talking about um.

You were talking about being willing to stand for abortion, even though we're not women.

Uh, there's some uh got some friends and church members, um.

A couple of years ago down at the abortion mill in knoxville, you know, because that's.

It was it's down on ut it's closed now.

Thank god.

He the lord answered prayer but.

Down on ut campus.

So there's kids constantly coming up and down the hill driving walking whatever they're at the abortion mill.

They're preaching the gospel and one in inevitably.

On a regular basis you would hear women drive by and shout out their windows.

You guys don't even have vaginas.

And Thank god for one of our one of our church members.

She she chased him down to the red light hollering.

Oh, I do I do.

So let me tell you the gospel.

All right.

So i'm i'm done now.

I gotta go to bed shortly guys.

I could win my whole life without hearing claude say vagina.

My whole life I mean and and and the rest of tyler's I could have went the rest of

mine and all the tylers.

Let's not repeat that.

All right, you can cut that rob.

It's live we don't need it.

Oh, that's true.

Well.

Now we're on the hook.

Is it not the truth?

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, we.

We don't have to be women to think that.

You have to.

Like you can't talk about something unless you're that particular person.

That's absolute nonsense, is it?

You can't talk about communism unless you're russian.

Yeah, I mean.

Praise god that william wilberforce though not black

Spoke about yes slavery.

That's right.

That's right and praise the lord for godly women who who stood up that's right there.

So praise the lord for them um Let's let's close things up and like we

always do and jeremy if you do not mind i'd love to present the gospel.

And uh big john, will you close us in prayer when he finishes me on it, too?

I don't know the gospel.

I'm just kidding um, well To start with the gospel.

I always go with uh, kind of what man's condition is first.

Um and and his need for the gospel and his condition is that he's spiritually Dead, he's sinned against a

holy righteous Judge of all the earth and because of his sin he has earned

Eternal judgment he sinned Against the eternal law against an eternal judge and he's earned eternal judgment.

And that eternal judgment is hell and that's where all of us We're we're born in iniquity.

We're conceived in iniquity.

We come forth from our mother's womb Um in iniquity and that's where that's where

our we're by nature children of wrath but then you that's man's

condition, but god's provision is that Though we are dead lost

sinners that he sent forth his son to be born of a virgin.

He was born Lived under the law kept the law every jot and tittle of the law fulfilled it all

perfectly.

Never sinned one time always did righteous.

And went to a roman cross where he was crushed For the sins of his people as it says

in matthew 1 21 for he shall save his people from their sins.

He was crushed under the the the wrath Of his father it says in isaiah 53 it pleased

the lord to crush him.

And it pleased him because justice was being meted out upon christ in place of his people.

Um, it was buried.

We we know three days later rose again was seen over 500 people where most of those people went

to their martyr's death not they would not deny that they saw the risen christ and

Ascended up to the right hand of the father.

He sat down victorious over sin Satan hell and reigns and

till he comes again one day praise god Father we

come to you in jesus name.

Amen.

So very thankful for all that you've done.

God, I pray that you you take the things that were said on this podcast tonight.

And you work it through your however means you choose for your own glory for the church's edification.

And to the salvation of the lost Lord, I pray that you bless the men that are on here that you bless the rest of the men that that aren't on

here tonight.

God I pray that you That you help us all maintain personal integrity

theological integrity.

That we become Become accountable to each other on this podcast and

to others lord that we hold one another accountable Lord.

I pray the love and mercy reign forever among us god.

That you be glorified and everything we do is in jesus name.

I pray amen.

Thank you gentlemen for your Conversation tonight and thank you guys for watching.

We hope to see you all real soon.

Thank you for joining the laborers podcast.

Remember jesus is king.

Live in the victory of christ speak with the authority of christ and go share the gospel of

christ.

Be sure to tune in next time for the laborers podcast.