George Bryson, Bassam Zawadi, and Callers

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is the Dividing Line.

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us, yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence.

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Our host is Dr. James White, director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.

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This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

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United States, it's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

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James White. Hey, good morning, welcome to the Dividing Line on a Tuesday morning, a holiday week for most folks.

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Anyways, hope you're having a good week. I certainly am having a very, very busy week and we have much to get to today, 877 -753 -3341.

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Not sure if we'll be able to take Skype calls today, Rich doesn't know.

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Sometimes one thing works, sometimes the other thing works, sometimes neither one works, I guess. I don't know, but 877 -753 -3341, at least phone lines are working today, which is a good thing.

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I just realized I need to bring the phones up on this side to know what's going on. The reason I don't have that up right now is because I wanted to start off the program today by looking at some interesting material.

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I get sent a lot of very interesting stuff, no two ways about it. And one of the things that I get sent that's very, very interesting is material posted by George Bryson.

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And George posts stuff all over the internet. I was recently sent some material that indicated that he had heard of my challenge to set up a debate at Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, and that one of his requirements for such a debate would be that we likewise have a second debate at my church.

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Now, Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa could hold ... How many thousands of people can sit in Calvary Chapel?

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I really don't know. I'm sure there are people in the audience that know what the seating capacity of Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa is.

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What's the seating capacity of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, Rich? About ... No, no, no, no,

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I'd say at least 150. Oh, easy. Especially if we use that little overflow area, we might get up to 170,

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I'd say, if we all sat real close together. Yeah. Wouldn't be any place to put any cameras if you had that many people in there and stuff like that.

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It'd be very difficult to record. It's an old Church of Christ building, so there's ...

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Where in the world would you put a table? I mean, how would ... I just don't know how in the world you'd ever do a debate there.

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But that's one of the requirements, see. And just so folks know, the real issue with debating

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George Bryson is not anything other than the fact that George Bryson will not allow for cross -examination in the future.

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Period. End of discussion. And that's it. That's all there is to it. He doesn't want cross -examination because if you go back and you watch the debate we did in,

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I believe it was 2001, it was during cross -examination that the wheels fell off of George's wagon, and he doesn't want to go through that again, and so he's come up with all these excuses and all the rest of this stuff.

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But the simple fact of the matter is he just doesn't ... A, he doesn't want to do cross -examination, and B, he wants to present a thesis that I don't believe and force me to defend it.

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He wants to argue fatalism, and I'm not a fatalist, and he doesn't want to actually debate the issues in a way that he would be forced to deal with on a biblical basis.

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That's the problem. So I was sent a link recently, and I guess this is something he has actually typed up or something.

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I don't know. But he ...

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The Gospel According to James White, or the Reformed Doctrines of Doom and Gloom.

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That's what it's called, and so that's why I think this is ... You got something playing out there? It sounds like ...

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Oh! They're finally cleaning up all the branches they took off those trees.

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Is that what they're doing? Well, actually, we've got some sound effects going on outside. We're giving a Canadian kind of show today.

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A little bit of ... Cutting some firewood for the cold, eh? Chainsaw out there, cutting some firewood and all, and yep.

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Thank you. Hey. Hey. I was sitting there going, what is ...

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Are you playing something out there? What is that sound? Then I realized it's a chainsaw. It's my new red -green effect.

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Oh, the red -green effect. Yes, red -green show. All right. Okay. Something that I've only seen once on YouTube, I think, but something about holding a car together with masking tape.

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That's the only thing I recall about ... No, let's not get blasphemous here. It's not masking tape.

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It's duct tape. Oh, duct tape. I'm sorry. Forgive me. I think I keep this place running around.

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Well, this is true. Failing wire, chewing gum, and duct tape. Duct tape. Okay. All right. I got you. Anyways, let's get to what

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George Bryson had to say here, because I also want to get to some comments by Bassam Zawadi, and then your phone calls.

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We already have one call on hold, and we'll take your calls at 877 -753 -3341.

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Let's look at what George Bryson has to say here. The first point, the first side, the positive side, or the first point of Calvinism, is that if you are one of those elected for salvation, you will one day in this life inevitably be born again before the final judgment.

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When you are born again, you'll be given a new nature. As your old nature was an unbelieving nature, so your new nature will be a believing nature.

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Here is how it unfolds. As a newborn child of God, you will, as a result of your new birth, believe in Jesus Christ, because and when you believe in Jesus Christ, you will be declared righteous and be guaranteed a place among the resurrection of the just, and at that time glorified for all eternity.

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Well, basically so. I mean, I would obviously want to emphasize that, and this will come up a little bit later, that this is totally undeserved.

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That, of course, as an unbeliever, until that happens, until your nature is changed, you hate

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God and the things of God. You may be religious, but you're not religious for the proper reasons.

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You do not bow the knee to Jesus Christ. You love your sin and are happy therein, and it is only when the

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Holy Spirit of God quells that rebellion and raises you to spiritual life, takes out a heart of stone, gives a heart of flesh, and by the way, listen for how many biblical examples are given by the good

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Mr. Bryson in his rendition here. But when you are given that new nature, then it is the nature of the new nature to cling to Christ and to believe and repent and to be obedient to God and so on and so forth.

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So far, so good. Of course, it would be far better to start with a more basic level of discussion, and that is we believe in a

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God who is sovereign over all things, a God who is the creator of all things, a God whose knowledge of the future is not merely like that of a human being who takes in knowledge of the future.

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We don't believe in a God who casts the cosmic dice, and he just managed to come up with snake eyes.

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He managed to win this round, but how does he know what is going to take place in the future?

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Does he take in knowledge of future events, or is this the result of his decree? It might be good to start there, because as we know, that is

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George's real weak area, and that really is the weak area of most Arminians, is they want to pretend they believe in the sovereignty of God, but they really don't, because if God really does know what is going to happen in the future, as past generations have clearly seen, the idea that is just a simple foreknowledge doesn't answer the question of how

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God has that foreknowledge, and who determined the events in time? Was it God, or was it the free creature man?

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And you can see the mental gymnastics that people like William Lane Craig and the Molinists come up with to try to find some way around God's sovereign decree, but once you admit that there is a sovereign decree, well, now you've got a problem.

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Now you've got a very serious problem with your attempt to promote the autonomy of the soul, and so on and so forth.

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So it would be better to start elsewhere. It is somewhat consistent for the

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Arminian to start with man, because, I mean, man is the ultimate decider here. God's just made a way of salvation possible.

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He hasn't actually saved anybody, but he makes a way of salvation possible, and that's what you have here.

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So the second, the negative or doom and gloom side of the first point is that if you are not one of the elect, you will not and cannot, you will not and cannot, there's a verb missing here, which would be okay if this was written in Greek, or maybe

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Hebrew, something like that, but in English it's always best to provide the verbs. Let me provide the verb. You will not and cannot be born again.

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Here is how it unfolds, because you are not born again and will forever be stuck with your unbelieving nature. You will not and cannot believe in Jesus Christ, because you cannot believe in Jesus Christ in your unregenerate condition.

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You will not be justified. If you are not justified, you will eventually be raised with the unjust and finally be sentenced to everlasting shame and torment.

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This is according to God's sovereign will and good pleasure, but end of his spiel.

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Let me continue on. And it is in accordance with God's perfect justice, because what is missing, of course, from George Bryson's words, is the assertion that you do not desire to bow the knee to Jesus Christ, you love your sin, you love your rebellion, and you're going to continue therein, and you have no interest in repentance, you have no interest in eternal life.

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You will continue in your false religions, your secularism, your humanism, or whatever else it may be, and that's just the way that it is.

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He doesn't mention that, and of course the assumption that he's hoping to communicate is that people who want to repent and want to have eternal life will be denied that opportunity, which of course would be a lie, and he doesn't say that in that way, but that is what

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George Bryson wants to communicate, is that for some reason

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God is under some type of obligation to unregenerate sinners who are estenched in his nostrils, who love their sin, to regenerate them or to give them sufficient grace to repent of themselves, somehow change their heart of stone, so maybe not give them a heart of flesh, but I don't know, some intermediate state,

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I don't know. The starkness of man's deadness and sin and the reality of God's absolute sovereignty, just no place in the

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Arminian's worldview in that kind of a presentation.

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The second point, the first side, the positive side, the second point of Calvinism is that if God has chosen you for salvation, he did so unconditionally.

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You do not have to believe to become chosen for salvation, but you were chosen and created for salvation, and so you believe as a result of being elected and created for salvation.

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Well, maybe, partially anyways, unconditional election is the assertion, the belief that God's choice of any individual is not based upon that individual's fulfilling certain conditions, whether those conditions are foreseen in God's foreknowledge or not.

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So the emphasis there is on the freedom of God. Now, man's religion cannot allow

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God to be free. All God can be free to do in man's religions is to give up his freedom to man.

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That's the extent of the freedom that is granted by man's religions to God, is, well,

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God can be so free that he gives up his freedom to us so that it is our autonomous choice that results in these things.

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That's how it works. And so this is partially true. It is true that if God has chosen you for salvation, he did so unconditionally.

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You do not have to believe to become chosen is a rather clumsy and awkward way of saying that God's election is not based upon foreseen faith, because I've never heard of anybody talking about believe so that you can be chosen or something like that.

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But you are chosen and created for salvation, and so you believe as a result. Well, even at that, you were chosen and created for salvation.

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Now, I would say you were chosen and created to honor and glorify God. All people were chosen to glorify

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God. It is the means by which we glorify God that is a part of his freedom, whether that is in our salvation or in our just damnation.

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And so you believe as a result of being elected and created for salvation. Or in other words, God must free the fallen son or daughter of Adam from the slavery to sin so that they can exercise true and saving faith.

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Again, the biblical terminology would be taking out that heart of stone, giving a heart of flesh, the wind blowing across the valley of the dry bones, and all that power and sovereignty of God that is right on the surface of the text is right there.

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Now, the second side, the negative or doom and gloom side of the second point is that if God has not chosen you for salvation, meaning he has chosen you for damnation, equal ultimacy error immediately.

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We have exposed George Bryson's continued use of the equal ultimacy error many, many times.

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He is desperate, though corrected, he is desperate to try to communicate the idea of equal ultimacy, that the nature of God's gracious choice salvation is identical to just simply the flip side of his reprobation of an individual, and that is not the case.

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There is no extension of grace, love, anything else that is a category of strict justice over against one of grace.

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And you can always tell when you're dealing with someone who really isn't serious about engaging the subject, really isn't serious in their representation of others when they use this kind of argumentation.

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But that's George Bryson. Meaning he has chosen you for damnation, he did so unconditionally.

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You were chosen to create or created for damnation. Wrong. You were created to glorify

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God, and you will do so even in your damnation. Whether you like that or not, that is the clear message of Scripture.

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You cannot believe and are therefore damned for your unbelief. No, you're damned for your sin, not for your unbelief, because this is according to God's sovereign will and for his glory and good pleasure.

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So as you continue to see, George Bryson, despite having been corrected for quite some time, is so much in the

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Calvary Chapel mindset that he cannot even accurately represent the other side, even when he has the opportunity to do so, which certainly he would have the opportunity to do so over and over again.

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The third point, the first side, the positive side, the third point of Calvinism is if you were chosen and created for salvation, Christ died for your sins, that the eternal decree of salvation would have an historical provision for salvation.

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True as far as it goes, that's a rather bland presentation of the glory of the atoning work of Christ, where you actually have an atonement, you actually have propitiation.

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You don't just have a means by which man becomes savable. You actually have a high priest who can save and save the uttermost.

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You have a real propitiation, a real turning away of the wrath of God. You have real uniting of the elect of God in Christ.

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You have a real atonement. You don't just have a theoretical fake atonement, which is sadly what many people have.

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The second side, the negative or doom and gloom side of the third point of Calvinism, is that you were not chosen and created for salvation, meaning you were chosen and created for damnation, equal ultimacy, error again.

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Christ did not die for your sins because an eternal decree for damnation needs no historical provision for salvation. Well, that's just silly.

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The reason that the atonement is specific is because the atonement turns away the wrath of God.

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And if it is not God's will to turn away his wrath, instead to express his wrath for any particular individual, then why would there be a turning away of that wrath?

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Why would the father place the sins of an individual that he has chosen to punish for those sins justly upon his son?

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That doesn't make any sense, but it does demonstrate, once again, that if George Bryson understands what we mean by particular redemption, there's no reason why he couldn't at this point in time.

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Then he does not accurately represent it, or it's quite possible he just doesn't understand it. It has been my experience that many of these folks just don't even listen to what you're saying.

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It goes in one ear, out the other. They have no hearing ears to hear. The fourth point, the first side, the positive side of the...

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Well, if it's doom and gloom side for the negative side, why isn't it glory and grace side for the positive side? I wonder why that is.

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Anyways, the first side of the fourth doctrine is that if you were chosen and created for salvation,

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God will irresistibly draw or efficaciously call you, applying saving grace to your life and circumstance to himself, first giving you a new life, which in turn brings with it a new nature, which is a believing nature resulting in your certain and immediate justification and eventual and everlasting glorification.

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Generally, that would be the case. The point of irresistible grace or the powerful grace of God is that dead sinners cannot resist the work of the

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Spirit of God in calling them to life. This is just simply a recognition that God's grace that brings salvation is powerful and effective.

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That's all it is. And that's why anybody who goes to Acts 7 tries to say, Oh, no, no, no, no, see, they resist the grace of God.

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It just, again, demonstrates they don't have any ears to hear. They're not even listening. They don't even know what you're talking about. As common, again, as that is.

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But all you have here is the assertion that God's grace, when

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God intends to save someone, that doesn't fail. All we're saying here is

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God's grace is effective for what God determines and decides to do. What's the opposite of that?

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That God can intend to do something by His grace and fail to do so. That God's grace may fail to do what

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God intends to do by His grace. That is the position being defended by the Arminian, that God tries and fails repeatedly over and over again.

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The second side, the negative and doom and gloom side of the Fourth Doctrine is, If you were not chosen and created for salvation, meaning that you were chosen and created for damnation, equal ultimacy, error, again, you will not be irresistibly drawn, efficaciously called, and no saving grace will be extended to you.

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I'm glad he at least said no saving grace, because he didn't say no grace. Common grace certainly is.

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Which means you will not and cannot be born again, because, of course, you do not desire to do so. Which in turn means you cannot have faith in Christ and thereby be justified in this life or ultimately glorified in the next life.

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Why even bother putting it this way? Because, you see, the whole fallacious idea of the

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George Bryson desperate attempt on the part of Calvary Chapel to avoid biblical teaching on this subject involves a strawman picture of the other side.

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And it is effective, it's efficacious for you to put this in the negative, which in turn means you cannot have faith in Christ.

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What's the assumption that's being communicated there? That somehow God is under some type of obligation to free everyone from slavery to sin so that they can.

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You see, faith in Christ cannot be a supernatural activity on the part of God. No, no, no, no, no. That can't be something dependent upon the spirit of God, because that again makes salvation solely in the providence of God.

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Instead, you have to place it in this awkward, strange, well, you cannot have faith in Christ, as if God is keeping you from having faith in Christ.

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It's your sin that keeps you from having faith in Christ. It's your rebellion. It is your relationship to Adam, federal headship, and all the rest of these things.

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But they don't want to put it that way. They just want to put it in this shape. So you're like, oh, you're saying that I'm kept from having,

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I want to have faith, but I can't have faith. That's obviously not what we're saying. Instead, you will suffer the torments of the everlasting lake of fire in accordance with the sovereign will of God, because this is according to his good pleasure.

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Of course, leaving out the justice of the fact that the person is being punished for their sin. They love their sin.

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They continue their sin. And in fact, 10 ,000 years into eternity, if you take them out of the lake of fire and give them the choice of bowing the knee before Jesus Christ or returning back there, they will go back there again, because that is the nature of the sinner.

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They don't really have a solid, meaningful doctrine of sin upon which to operate to be able to understand those things in the first place.

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But that's the issue. And then we have the fifth point, which, interestingly enough, is the longest, which might tell you a little something about where some of the

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Calvary Chapel folks are. The fifth point, the first side of the, the positive side of the fifth point of Calvinism is that if you were chosen and created for salvation, the new nature you receive when you are born again, the saving faith that comes with that new nature and the justification that immediately follows faith ensures that you will live forever, however imperfectly, that you will live, however imperfectly, a sanctified, holy, or righteous life in faith, practically speaking, for the most part, from the time of your regeneration until the time of your glorification.

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This perseverance and sanctification, holiness, or righteousness in faith will not, while not perfect, is inevitable for the truly born again and will be to the end of this life for the elect.

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It is not as though the elect should not fail to preserve, for the most part, it is not as though the elect should not fail to preserve, for the most part, but they cannot do so.

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I don't get it. Obviously a typo in there someplace. If, therefore, a person appeared to be a saint earlier in life but failed to persevere in faith and righteousness until the end of life, it proves he was never a saint or never born again, never had faith in Christ, and never had a holy and righteous life in faith to persevere in it.

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Now you know what's really interesting in listening to George Bryson trying to represent the position that he doesn't agree with is that it's all man -centered.

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Have you noticed how all of this is centered on man? It's all centered upon my faith or my goal. None of this has anything to do with God.

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None of this has to do with the fact that the gospel is triune, that it's to the glory of God.

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None of it. None of it whatsoever. It all has to do with man and the individual, and none of it has to do with, why do the saints persevere?

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Because that is the will of God by which the triune God will be glorified. I mean, the whole reason that we persevere is because we're being conformed to the image of Christ and that the one joined to Jesus Christ will not be lost.

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It is the will of the Father. Isn't it interesting, when I present the perseverance of the saints, listen to the sermon that I did at Calvary Santa Fe back in September on the perseverance of the saints.

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It is so different than George Bryson's presentation. So different.

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Why? Because he doesn't understand it. He doesn't want to understand it. He's an opponent of this belief, but not a good opponent.

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I mean, there are good opponents who, as few as they are, don't do the straw man thing, but George Bryson isn't one of them.

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He's much more on the other side of trying to warn people, trying to inoculate people, because look,

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Calvary Chapel keeps losing people to Calvinism, and they will continue to do so as long as they keep telling people to believe in the

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Bible. But that's just the way it is. The second negative side, the doom and gloom side, of the third point, this should be the fifth point, anyway, is that if you are not elect and crave for salvation, meaning you are elected, chose of damnation, ultimate error, again, equal ultimate error, you cannot be born again of faith in Christ, live a holy or righteous life in faith for even one day, much less the end of your life.

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I wonder if he thinks you can. He must have, again, a very low view of sin. Because God is sovereign and can do as he pleases with his creatures,

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God is free to mislead a person into thinking they are one of the elect, help them live much like the elect, but the judgment revealed they were convinced by God that they were one of the elect, even though they were not.

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He really detests Calvin's discussion of that particular subject, that God can, if he so chooses to do so, send a deceiving spirit.

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Oh, wait, that's in the Bible. Sorry, never mind. No matter how convinced someone is in thinking he is one of the elect, assurance, salvation, eternal life is impossible to secure, how could anyone know for certain that they will persevere to the end, proving that they were elected without actually having persevered to the end?

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So this is the old, well, you need to have, it sounds like he buys into the there is no such thing as false faith viewpoint.

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I don't know. We would have to ask him those questions. After many years, actually decades, of studying the

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Calvinist doctrines of grace, sorry, George, but you don't give any evidence of having ever seriously studied the Calvinist doctrines of grace.

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I'm convinced that the best refutation of the five points of Calvinism is an accurate and honest explanation of the five points of Calvinism.

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Well, it would help if you could do it, George, but we just demonstrated that you can't. Unfortunately, most new converts to Calvinism are not aware of the flip side of the five points of Calvinism early on.

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Those who introduce Calvinism to the non -Calvinist belief that the new believer is not ready for the meatier stuff of Reformed theology, that's a lie.

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That, they say, should come only later when they can handle it. Untrue. They reason that the positive side of each point is simply arithmetic.

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The negative side is more like algebra or some other more complicated, difficult, and higher form of math. Yeah, that's how

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I've always done it. Isn't that how I do it at the church, Rich? Yeah, all the time. The truth is this. The negative side is not more difficult to understand for the new convert to Calvinism.

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It is more difficult to accept. The positive side seems more palatable, whereas the negative side is difficult to swallow and some even choke on it.

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Full disclosure, early on and sometimes even later on is a major hindrance to those committed to winning the non -Calvinist over to Calvinism.

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Admittedly, sometimes proponents of Calvinism do not lay it all on the table because they themselves have not turned the coin over to see what is on the other side.

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Sometimes they ignore it. Sometimes they deny it. They are on the Reformed road and they are trying to get others to join them. However, they have not gone very far and sometimes do not choose to go but a few blocks down the

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Reformed road. Some would like to believe that each of the five points of Calvinism are only five points of grace.

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It is too much for them to think that these five points also represent a very hard and harsh message of doom and gloom.

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In fact, John Piper happily concedes that the doctrines of grace, total depravity, unconditional, election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance, and saints are the warp and woof of the biblical gospel cherished by so many for centuries.

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Well, you know, I'm not sure how John Piper's words had anything to do with what came before that or how it's a concession, but it has been our experience that George struggles with those things.

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No, do not have time for that today, sir. We need to press forward because I do need to cover at least a few things by Bassam Zawadi, then get to our phone calls as best as we can today on the program.

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I was listening to Bassam Zawadi, who is my opponent in debate, on February 12th in London while writing over the weekend.

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I started listening on Thursday of last week, then Friday, and continued

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Saturday and yesterday listening to a presentation he had done. It seemed like it was in London with Sami Zatari at a mosque, a masjid on Christianity.

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And I wanted to respond to some of the things he said. I just wanted to start the process of responding to just a couple of the things that Bassam had to say.

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Hopefully that will benefit you all as well. I'm going to keep these fairly short, and my response is fairly short because we do have callers on the line.

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I'm not sure where the volume is going to be on this because it's the first time I've used this computer for this, but we will do our best.

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Here's the first comment from Bassam Zawadi. Hello, Mr.

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Computer. I think you're supposed to start there. In one instance, he had his followers take someone's donkey without his permission.

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For example, one time he told the disciples, okay, that person's donkey, untie it and take it.

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Not to ask the guy for his permission. And they would say, yeah, but Jesus needed the donkey in order.

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Yeah, but why did he take it without permission? This is a section where Bassam is trying to provide to the

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Muslims a mechanism for responding to people who criticize the character of Muhammad and who say

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Jesus' character was perfect. Now it sounds to me, ironically, like Bassam is actually accusing

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Jesus of sin. Even though in the Hadith when

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Muhammad talks about the final day and the intercession of Muhammad, when all of mankind comes to Jesus and asks him to intercede, no accusation is made of sin in regards to Jesus.

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Jesus doesn't say, I sinned. He just defers to Muhammad. So I would be interested in knowing whether Bassam believes that Jesus was sinless.

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And if so, then wouldn't he have to read these texts differently, even from an Islamic perspective? Now, of course, the story of Jesus and the donkey and the colt and the foal and so on and so forth in Matthew and Mark, how do you know

31:10

Jesus hadn't arranged this with the man beforehand? I mean, there's an upper room.

31:15

Jesus has been in Jerusalem a lot. How do you know that, Bassam? Well, he doesn't, but he doesn't give that as an option either, unfortunately.

31:24

We press forward. He accused God of abandoning him. I don't know if you guys saw that movie,

31:30

The Passion. When Jesus was on the cross, he said, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

31:36

Why have you abandoned me? How can a prophet accuse God of abandoning him? Now, that one

31:41

I about wrote off the road on, because we all know the claim, the words of Jesus from the cross,

31:51

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And if you have read the discussion that I provided that in a rather lengthy footnote in The Forgotten Trinity, I discussed the fact that there's a lot of preaching out there that goes beyond,

32:11

I think, what the text is actually saying. But what I would point out to Bassam is that that is a quotation from the

32:19

Old Testament. It's always good to sort of look, see if maybe that has something to do with it. Jesus is on a cross, which, of course,

32:26

Bassam would deny he was ever there. But Jesus is on a cross, and so any words that he says are going to be highly significant.

32:35

He is surrounded by his Jewish enemies. And therefore, it might be good to recognize that Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani is the beginning of the 22nd

32:48

Psalm. That is the hymn book of the Jewish people. So everybody hearing

32:54

Jesus' words would have known what he was doing.

33:00

And they would have known the entirety of the psalm that he was quoting. Psalm 22 is a messianic psalm.

33:07

It prophesies the very thing that Bassam Zawadi denies took place in explicit detail.

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And finishes with this one being vindicated and justified. And so,

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Jesus does not have to sing the whole psalm, nor could he, while hanging upon a cross.

33:28

But merely by beginning the psalm, he brings the whole psalm to mind. It is a messianic psalm he is saying is being fulfilled in himself.

33:38

And so, it is not an accusation against God. The very next words of Jesus' mouth are in the second person, directed directly to the

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Father. Into your hands I commit my spirit. The whole accusation is bogus on its face if we just take just a little time.

33:57

Now, I was going to find this, I'll find it later, but at one point I believe Bassam actually says in this file that he got a lot of these things from an atheist.

34:06

Which explains things. But you see, when we debate in February, and I make my arguments from Surah 5 and Surah 4 and other surahs in the

34:20

Quran, I'm going to have read all those surahs, and I'm going to know what the context of those surahs are.

34:28

And in fact, as time allows, I've already started quite some time ago to translate the various ayah themselves, so I'm familiar with what they said in the original language and the various translations that are used of them and what their background is and things like that.

34:45

Because that's what we have to do. I'm not just going to go to an atheist website and, oh, look at this,

34:51

Muhammad married Aisha. Oh, Islam's bad. I mean, that's the easy way.

34:57

And I don't think it shows respect for other people if that's the methodology that you utilize.

35:05

He prioritized himself over the poor. In one of the verses, you would see that a lady, she broke a big jar of oil or something, and she wanted to apply it to Jesus' body.

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And the disciples around her were like, why did you break it? You could have sold it for a big amount of money and given the money to the poor.

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And then Jesus said, no, I'm going to go away soon, therefore let her apply it on me.

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And when you read the passage, he's giving the impression that, look, who cares?

35:41

Just let her apply it on me. The poor are not necessary now. I'm not going to stay with you for a long time.

35:47

But if he was the greatest example, wouldn't he have told her, don't apply oil on me.

35:53

It's not necessary. Sell it and give it to the poor. In other words, Bassam Zawadi just adopted the very argument of who?

36:04

Judas Iscariot. Isn't it ironic? I just spoke on this very text.

36:12

We've been doing a synoptic study for over eight years now. And I just spoke on the anointing of Bethany.

36:18

And I went through how John tells us exactly who it was who said this. Mark and Matthew do not.

36:24

Matthew says it was disciples. Mark just simply says it was said. And I talked about why there might be different traditions here and so on and so forth.

36:31

We went through all. We studied the text carefully and the parallels and how

36:36

Luke doesn't have this. And we look at it in a serious way. So when

36:42

I heard this, I just started laughing. Because it is John who tells us specifically that is the argument of Judas Iscariot, the one that betrayed

36:53

Jesus. And there Bassam is saying, yeah, it sounds like what. He obviously hasn't read it close enough to even know this.

36:59

But it sounds like he's agreeing with Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed

37:04

Christ. It's great. Wonderful. Yes, sir. I was amazed listening to that because Sunday morning in my high school class,

37:11

I'm referring to the same passage. Well, that's what we covered Sunday morning. And I'm hearing him do this.

37:20

And I'm thinking, wait a minute, how did he get around the part where Judas says this because he was stealing from the treasury?

37:29

He was stealing from the box. I love it. I love it. I've got just a couple more here and then we'll get to our callers.

37:36

He was inconsiderate of his followers' feelings and circumstances. There was one instance when one of his disciples or followers, his father died, and he wanted to attend the funeral of his father.

37:49

But Jesus said to him, no, right now is not the time to attend the funeral of your father.

37:54

Right now we have to go and preach the word of God to people. Well, I mean, if you want to be strict, right?

38:00

And you want to say this guy is the best moral role model, wouldn't he have just allowed the person to go to his father's funeral, the father that he loves so much, and then go out and preach the word of God?

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Or at least let him... And there was one other follower, he said, let me go and tell my mother that I will not come back home.

38:19

He said, no, there's no time for that. Go out and preach the word of God. If he was the best moral example, wouldn't he have told him, yeah, go and tell your mom so that she won't be worried about you, and then go and preach the word of God?

38:30

So, there you go. The call to discipleship. Totally misunderstood by Basamzawadi. And Jesus' response to those who were making excuses as to why they could not take up the cross and follow him.

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You know, let me first go bury my father. We're not... Oh, that's just terrible.

38:54

Instead of telling him, I think that was... I'm not even sure which incident he's even referring to at that point.

39:01

But the idea being, what was Jesus' whole point in this was you must love me and the gospel more than anything in this world, and all these people were giving examples of attachment to things in this world greater than himself.

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Now, obviously, Basam doesn't believe Jesus was who the Bible says he was, and therefore, it would be fully understandable why devotion to Jesus Christ would be secondary to telling your mommy you'll be home later.

39:30

But, again, just hearing that kind of presentation is rather fascinating for me.

39:37

...ordered pregnant women to be ripped open. If you actually read some of these references, you won't even believe that they're actually there, that there's a pregnant woman, and since the city was being punished,

39:48

God ordered the soldiers to take a spear and to stick it into her private part to kill her and the baby.

39:55

Now, he said, well, Christians believe Jesus is God, and therefore, he's the God of the Old Testament, and therefore, everything

40:01

God commanded in the Old Testament would be applicable to Jesus as well. And I had to go, what is he talking about here?

40:11

What texts is he referring to here? And, eventually, I was able to track down some of the texts.

40:22

But, specifically, it's interesting. He was talking about Hosea chapter, and the reason

40:28

I was able to do this is there's a PowerPoint that you can download from his website that has this.

40:33

Now, listen to this. Listen to how he presented this, that God commanded people to stick a spear in a pregnant woman's private parts to kill her.

40:44

This is God's command. Here's the actual text, Hosea 13, 16. Samaria will be held guilty, for she has rebelled against her

40:52

God. They will fall by the sword, their little ones will be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women will be ripped open.

40:59

What is this? It's a prophecy of the destruction of Samaria. Now, who did that?

41:04

The Assyrians. Not the Jews. The Jews weren't... No one was commanded to do this.

41:10

In fact, the Assyrians that destroyed the Northern Empire, go read Isaiah chapter 10, they themselves were then judged by God for the attitude in which they did it.

41:19

But that all of a sudden gets turned into... And again, has Basaam actually read Hosea? Or is this from an atheist website someplace?

41:26

Or a Jewish website someplace? It probably wouldn't be the Jewish website at this particular point in time. Very, very good question.

41:33

And then, of course, we have the constant Psalm 137, 9 question. Had the babies of Babylon dashed against the rocks?

41:41

You see, the people of Babylon, when they invaded Israel, they took the babies of Israel and they dashed their heads against the rocks.

41:50

So, 100 years later, God commanded the Israelis to invade

41:57

Babylon. And as revenge, He also said take their babies and dash against the rocks.

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Clear, that won't be... I mean, what do these babies have to do with their forefathers or their ancestors that committed that crime?

42:09

Is this true? Sorry? Is this true? This is in the Bible. This is in the

42:15

Old Testament. And the thing is, I have all these clearly on my website. And we always send emails to these

42:21

Christian websites to reply back. There's nothing they could say. Because they would just say, that's God's command and we have to accept it.

42:29

Well, really, I would hope that if Basaam was sending out emails to websites that maybe someone would have pointed out that Basaam's understanding here is completely wrong.

42:41

Where does he get the idea that 100 years later, the Israelites were commanded to invade Babylon?

42:48

Where is that? No such thing ever happened. Babylon destroyed

42:53

Israel. Babylon took Jerusalem captive in 586 -587.

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They had subjugated Israel a number of years earlier than that. Israel was in no shape to invade anybody.

43:07

There was no invasion of Babylon by Israel or any command. Psalm 137 -9, imprecatory psalm of the people of Israel who were in captivity in Babylon, who said, how blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock.

43:23

Now, this is an imprecatory psalm. That is the prayer of the people.

43:29

It's not a command from God for some invading army to do something. I mean, if you're going to dislike

43:35

Psalm 137 -9, at least know what it's about. At least take the time to read it and realize it's not some commandment from God.

43:44

Now, the people of Israel are praying imprecation upon the Babylonians, and it is in light of what they themselves had experienced.

43:54

That's a whole different thing than saying Israel was sent into Babylon and they were told, one more, there's this one more, and then we'll get to our colors.

44:01

I know we're running out of time. So, here's the last one. One time

44:06

Prophet David, in the Old Testament, they said that David slept with a prostitute. Okay, Prophet David.

44:12

Because they believed that the prophets, they committed all these major sins. After Prophet David slept with a prostitute,

44:19

God wanted to rebuke him. So, what did he do? He threatened Prophet David that he will have his wives taken from him and engage in sexual intercourse with his neighbors.

44:29

Now, this did not happen. Eventually, Prophet David repented and God didn't do that.

44:34

But the mere thought that God would issue such a threat seems to be morally questionable.

44:41

Well, what's questionable is Bassam's understanding of the text of the Old Testament. 2

44:47

Samuel 12, 11 is the text that is first referenced here.

44:54

And this, again, is very, very interesting. Thus says Yahweh, Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household.

45:02

I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.

45:08

Indeed, you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and under the sun. Then David said to Nathan, I have sinned against the

45:16

Lord. So, what is this? Well, interestingly enough, the Quran actually records

45:22

Nathan coming to David. But you see, Muslims don't believe that prophets could commit major sins.

45:28

And so, why Nathan comes to David isn't mentioned. The story continues, but it isn't mentioned in the

45:35

Quran. It's been cleaned up, see. But, where did

45:40

Bassam get the idea that David slept with a prostitute? When did Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah, become a prostitute?

45:49

The Bible nowhere says anything of the kind. That was the whole point. He slept with another man's wife and then had the man killed.

45:56

Again, basic level errors. Just, just really, really, really basic level errors. And so, I would encourage

46:02

Bassam. When you get stuff from atheist websites, you really might want to be somewhat careful.

46:10

Because they're probably, probably not accurate. You might want to look a little bit more closely at what you're looking at there.

46:20

877 -753 -3341 is the phone number. And that is the phone number that Lewis in New York called.

46:29

Hello, Lewis. Hello, Dr. White. This is Lewis Adjurio, your old buddy from New York. How are you? Just fine.

46:35

Good, good. I have a question for you. Regarding the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, you were talking about basic level errors, and I don't want to misrepresent you when

46:43

I'm on the internet. Really? You really don't want to do that, Lewis? No, I would never want to do that.

46:49

That's not what most people would tell me, but you go ahead. Well, okay. On page 211 of your

46:55

Potter's Freedom book, you cite Exodus 421, and then you go to Exodus 5, verse 1, where Pharaoh told

47:06

Moses that he would not let the people go. And then you said, isn't this what God said he would do?

47:12

My question to you is, where does it say in the Bible that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by Exodus 5?

47:19

Do you have a verse for that? Because I can't seem to find it. I have no idea what you're asking.

47:25

Exodus chapter 4, God tells Moses, the Lord said to Moses, when you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power, but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

47:40

So before Pharaoh sees the first miracle and is called for the first time to let the people go,

47:48

God says he has a purpose in what he's going to do, and he will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

47:57

Now, where does Pharaoh see the first miracle? It's in Exodus chapter 7, not Exodus chapter 5. So? I think you made a basic level error.

48:05

You were talking about basic level errors a few minutes ago. You assume that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by Exodus chapter 5.

48:13

And the Bible doesn't say that. Well, it's said in Exodus chapter 4. That comes before chapter 5.

48:19

Right, exactly. And see, the thing is that God said that he would put wonders in Moses' hand, but that wonder was the rod.

48:28

And the miracles that Pharaoh would witness would be the rod that God put in Moses' heart.

48:35

And that happened in Exodus chapter 7, not Exodus chapter 5. Yeah, so? So I think you made a basic level error.

48:42

No, I don't think there's any error at all. The whole point, Lewis, is that God told Moses he would harden

48:49

Pharaoh's heart. He had a purpose in what he did. Now, you answered this question for us,

48:55

Lewis. Could Pharaoh have let the people go in Exodus chapter 5, yes or no? Absolutely, he could have.

49:01

So, God could have false prophesied to Moses. No, God knew beforehand that Pharaoh would not let the people go.

49:07

No, no, no. So now you're weaseling out. Do you believe that God has absolute knowledge of future events?

49:14

Absolutely. Is it a result of passively taking in knowledge or decreeing that? No, he knows it within himself.

49:20

He doesn't have to take in anything. He knows it within himself. How does he know what a free creature is going to do in himself?

49:26

Are you a Molinist? No, because he stands outside of time and he's already seen it. Oh, he's seen it.

49:31

So he took in knowledge of what people would do. No, no, no. He didn't take anything. He knows it within himself.

49:37

He didn't take in anything. Wait, wait, wait. You are not a systematic theologian.

49:43

You contradict yourself all the time. Let me see if we can listen to what you're saying. He has seen it. He has seen it, right.

49:49

So he saw it happen and that's how he knows. Exactly. You just contradicted yourself.

49:54

No, no, no, no. Does everybody in the audience see how Lewis Ruger just contradicted himself? I'm not here to be contentious.

50:00

Oh, oh, Lewis, Lewis, don't, don't, don't. I know it's the exact opposite,

50:06

Lewis. You made a basic level error. Do you know why? Because in Exodus 7, verse 3,

50:11

God hardened Pharaoh's heart there. He said, and I will harden Pharaoh's heart in Exodus 7, 3.

50:16

He hasn't done it yet. That's fine. So you made a basic level error. No, I did not, sir. The basic, the assertion that I made, the assertion that I made, all right, thank you for your call,

50:28

Lewis. The assertion that I made was that the hardening of Pharaoh's heart was not the result of Pharaoh's activities.

50:35

That before Pharaoh ever saw the first miracle, that God said he had a purpose.

50:43

He was going to harden his heart so he would not let the people go. He told Moses that before they ever stood in his presence.

50:49

Lewis Ruggiero is a man who opposes the freedom of God and salvation. He has written a book, and I'll be honest, the only reason

50:57

I got the book is not because, because Lewis Ruggiero doesn't, Lewis Ruggiero doesn't understand Scripture. He can't, he can't really handle

51:04

Scripture well. We demonstrated that. Anybody want to listen to the entire debate we had with him on that subject?

51:09

We tried to get him to exegete John 6. He could not do so. He cannot handle Scripture. The only reason I got the book was because of the foreword by one

51:18

Dr. Ergen Memet Kanner, President, Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary, Liberty University, Lynchburg, Virginia.

51:25

That's the only reason I got it. It was in the midst of the Kanner situation, and that's why I picked it up.

51:31

But there was nothing new in the book. It does not in any way add to the discussion that we're having.

51:38

Let's try to get a few more callers in here. Let's talk with Ted in Birmingham. Hi, Ted. Good morning.

51:43

Good morning. I'm sorry, what? I can barely hear you,

51:53

Ted. Your cell phone's breaking up. Oh, sorry about that. Okay, now you sound good.

51:59

Now you sound good. Don't move. Okay. If you have one leg raised in the air, leave it there so I can hear you.

52:07

Okay, I'm frozen at this point. Okay, good. Two questions about Islam for you.

52:12

Two questions. One is, does it have a particular translation that you would recommend?

52:20

Okay, I think you said, and again, I'm having a real hard time understanding you.

52:26

I think you said, is there a particular translation of the Quran that you would suggest for someone who's going to read it?

52:32

That's correct. Actually, it's best to compare them. I have recommended to folks,

52:39

I found an application in the iTunes store, and it will be available for Droid here soon called

52:49

My Quran, which has the Sahih International translation on it.

52:54

I've found that to be a pretty good translation. It's pretty literal. Yusuf Ali is the most commonly used translation amongst

53:03

Muslims, mainly because the Saudis print millions of them, but the Sahih International translation is pretty good, and that's available in the

53:12

My Quran app as well. And all of them are available on, there's certain websites you can go to that have seven, eight, nine

53:19

English Quran translations you can compare with one another. I think there's one called Quranbrowser .com

53:25

and stuff like that. So there's a number of them available. Okay, thank you. One more quick question?

53:31

Sure. The work of a well -known scholar on Quran, I'm sorry,

53:40

I can't hear a word you're saying. The work of a well -known scholar, what? John Esposito.

53:47

Oh, okay. Any value in Christians reading his work? Well, you can get,

53:56

I mean, I went to Fuller for crying out loud. There's value in reading a wide variety of stuff.

54:02

When I read, for example, Ibn Warraq on Islam, or any of the other

54:08

Orientalists of various religious backgrounds, there's value in reading it because very often they'll have important historical data and information.

54:18

It's the worldview they plug it into and the conclusions they come to. Liberals are valuable to read because they frequently do their homework.

54:27

You just don't follow them to their conclusions. There's a skill that one develops, especially if you go to Fuller, to find the gems and throw out the rest of the stuff in the process.

54:40

So, yeah, I mean, as far as historical information and stuff like that, there's a wide variety of folks that are worth reading.

54:48

It's just you have to be careful when they start getting into the discussion of what they think that means that's important.

54:55

Okay. Okay. All right, thanks, Ted. I look forward to meeting you. All right, thanks a lot. God bless. Bye -bye. Bye -bye. Yeah, I think I heard

55:01

Ted say in the first part where it was really far away that he was going to be taking the Intensive Polemics course, which will be coming up starting

55:09

January 3rd, which I'm looking forward to very, very much. Looks like we might be able to get all our callers here in real quickly.

55:15

Let's talk with Lars. Hi, Lars. Hello, Dr. White. How are you, sir? Doing well.

55:21

How are you? I'm doing pretty good. I just first wanted to thank you and your team for all the resources you're putting out, especially on defending

55:29

Sola Scriptura against Catholicism. Ah, yes. A friend of mine recently reconciled with Catholic Church, so it's been very helpful.

55:38

But one thing bothered me about your ministry, and I was watching your debate with George Bryson on YouTube last week, and the text you read this morning that I was following along with,

55:50

I wanted to read just a couple of verses from 1 Corinthians 1, if that's okay? Sure. Let's see, starting at verse 10.

55:59

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

56:09

For it has been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

56:15

Now, this I say, that every one of you say it, and I'm going to be a little liberal with the Greek here.

56:20

I am of Luther, and I of Arminius, and I of Calvin, and I of Christ. Is Christ divided?

56:28

So the point being, now Calvinism, of course, is fine as far as it goes. I mean, it's solid exegesis of the

56:34

Scripture. But I would refer you to an article written by B .H. McIntosh.

56:39

You can find it at stempublishing .org. It's called One -Sided Theology. And he lays it out very clearly that we are not dealing with persons, but with schools of doctrine and systems of divinity, which we would most earnestly entreat our beloved readers to abandon at once and forever.

56:59

Not one of them contains the full, entire truth of God. In other words, the danger of defending

57:06

Calvinism as such is that you risk destroying the unity of the one body of Christ for the sake of a theological system which is imperfect.

57:17

That's very strange, Lars. Why are you trying to defend Sola Scriptura against a Roman Catholic? Aren't you doing the same thing?

57:26

I'm not attacking... I mean, that's the argument of the ecumenist.

57:32

And the situation, of course, in 1 Corinthians is that Paul and Apollos and Cephas are still alive, and therefore they are attaching themselves to particular individuals and pitting them against each other.

57:43

None of these individuals that you're talking about are. My response to George Bryson is in response to the fact that George Bryson keeps strawmanning a position that I do believe fully does represent the truth of God.

57:58

I don't believe that Arminianism and Calvinism can both be true at the same time the same way. Do you?

58:03

No, but what I would say is I don't think Calvinism itself is the entire truth of God. For example, in just the five points of Calvinism that are listed, the truth of the one body or the truth of the

58:13

Church isn't even mentioned. Of course, but what does that have to do with defending those truths that are stated from those who pervert them?

58:23

Right. I guess the danger is just if you defend Calvinism instead of defending the truth that Calvinism tries to represent.

58:30

In what way? Show me where I have, for example, not defended a biblical doctrine of the

58:38

Church, the doctrine of the Trinity, resurrection, the inspiration authority of Scripture. Oh, no, I'm sorry.

58:43

I'm not trying to make that accusation. But in the debate that I watched with George Bryson, for example— Well, the subject was

58:48

Calvinism. Correct, correct. In that debate, and from what

58:53

I—I'm pretty convinced that you are safe, sir, but I don't know as much about George Bryson, having only seen that one debate.

58:59

But I saw what looked like two Christians debating very heatedly on a topic that the

59:05

Bible just gives us such clear verses on, you know, God is not willing that any should perish. And at the same time, very clearly, those who have been ordained to the adoption of funds, that these are just topics in Scripture that are just so high above what we can understand.

59:22

They're high above what we can understand. They've been given to us by the Holy Spirit, but we're not supposed to understand them? Oh, no, no.

59:28

There's a limited human reason, right? In the article you were reading this morning—er, earlier, the blogger went on to post a response from the

59:36

Belgic Confession, Article 13, the Doctrine of God's Providence. It says, But the

59:48

Belgic Confession did not include any of the points of Calvinism as being beyond what he has chosen to reveal to us.

59:54

So that's irrelevant. Well, I guess the problem is that if you juxtapose the fact that God loves everyone, that God is not willing that any should perish, with the truth that we're—

01:00:04

That's a misuse of that text, sir. That's a misuse of that text. You're abusing that text. You're abusing that text, sir.

01:00:11

You're abusing that text. I've demonstrated that over and over and over again. Have you read The Potter's Freedom? Have you looked into the exegesis of that text?

01:00:19

I just encountered your ministry a week ago, and— Okay, well, then I don't think you're on any solid ground to be making accusations of imbalance.

01:00:28

Like I said, I'm not trying to accuse. I'm only trying to encourage, to say, please try to not defend

01:00:36

Calvinism with a capital C. I'm sorry, sir. I'm sorry, sir. I will always defend the gospel, and that's what that is.

01:00:43

The gospel, yes. The gospel, yes. It's just when we put up human systems, we divide the body.

01:00:48

I don't believe it's a human system, sir. It's a name that describes the result of sound exegesis.

01:00:54

And so I am being consistent. I am being consistent in defending the Trinity, the resurrection of Christ, the inspiration of Scripture, Sola Scriptura.

01:01:03

I defend them all on the exact same basis. And I don't think in one week that you have grounds for saying, well, you shouldn't defend

01:01:11

Calvinism. Well, I defend Calvinism, and I defend Trinitarianism. Should I not defend Trinitarianism, because that's a division?

01:01:16

I mean, there are Aryans out there. Well, that's true. I guess it's hard to— Yeah, we have to—

01:01:24

Maybe you can separate the chat from the weed in what I'm saying. I don't know if it's possible. Well, Lars, my suggestion would be we've done about 106 public debates and been doing this program for over 20 years, and I think you will discover that we are very consistent in the mechanisms and means by which we do so, and it is not simply a matter of defending

01:01:49

Calvinism or anything like that. Obviously, I am

01:01:54

Reformed, but I am Reformed on the very same basis upon which I defend the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the resurrection, and all those—justification by faith and everything else.

01:02:02

I'm forced to that by the consistent exegesis of Scripture. And if all I ever did was talk about Calvinism— and today on the program

01:02:09

I talked a lot about it because I was responding to George Bryson. But then I switched subjects and talked about Bassam Zawadi and Islam.

01:02:15

And then Lou Rugg called in, and so we talked about Calvinism a little bit more beyond that. But frequently we will have programs where that doesn't even come up.

01:02:24

That's true. So I think if you will look, you will see that we attempt to be quite consistent at that point.

01:02:33

And if you will look, for example, at the sermons that I post on my website from my preaching at the

01:02:38

Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church, you will discover that the vast majority of them are not on the five points of Calvinism.

01:02:44

Well, yeah, I'm sure of that. It's just in that one debate with George Bryson that I saw, there was a lot of what

01:02:49

I saw. I saw you resort to the same human reasoning that you very often say is not a good thing to resort to.

01:02:56

Such as? Example? Well, the debate came up on whether you're called before you're drawn or drawn before you're called.

01:03:05

Which is addressed by 1 John 5 .1 and various other biblical texts. Correct. And the problem just seemed to me—the impression that I got from watching was that it became very much a debate on semantics that went maybe one step beyond what

01:03:20

Scripture has revealed to us. I disagree. And I don't see how there is any human reasoning that I decry in pointing out that George Bryson's position in regards to relationship, regeneration, and faith is actually addressed by Scripture.

01:03:36

I don't see how that's about human reasoning. But Lars, the point is that debate was on the subject of Calvinism.

01:03:42

So it's probably going to be pretty heavy on that subject. You will find numerous debates I've done where the subject is never addressed directly because that's not the subject.

01:03:52

But we've gone well over time. I appreciate your call, Lars. Thanks for listening in. Keep listening. I think you'll find that balance that we were talking about.

01:04:02

All right. Thanks for listening to the program today. We'll be back, Lord willing, on Thursday afternoon.

01:04:08

May, may, may have to move it on Thursday. We'll see. We'll see. It's possible.

01:04:14

I'll let you know before then. See you then. God bless. We're standing at the crossroads.

01:04:49

Let this momentous flow away. We must contend for the faith our fathers fought for.

01:04:56

We need a new Reformation day. It's a sign of the times.

01:05:03

The truth is being trampled in and doing. Bear it down. Won't you lift up your voice?

01:05:10

Are you tired of plain religion? It's time to make some noise. Pounding on Wittenberg.

01:05:16

Pounding on Wittenberg. Pounding on Wittenberg. Pounding on Wittenberg.

01:05:24

Pounding on Wittenberg. Pounding on Wittenberg. Pounding on Wittenberg.

01:05:32

Pounding on Wittenberg. Pounding on Wittenberg. Pounding on Wittenberg. Pounding on Wittenberg. Pounding on Wittenberg. Pounding on Wittenberg.

01:05:39

Pounding on Wittenberg. Pounding on Wittenberg. That's A -O -M -I -N dot

01:05:46

O -R -G. Where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books, tapes, debates and tracks. Join us again this