Cultish: UFO's & the world of the Occult

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00:01

Fear of being called crazy wasn't the only roadblock to getting Pentagon leadership to care about the issue.

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Some officials that I talked to told me that they thought there was resistance in the Pentagon on religious grounds.

00:14

That effectively you had some senior officers who were Christians who thought looking into this kind of voodoo stuff was dangerous.

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I was pulled into the office of one of these seniors. The senior looked at me in the eye and said, I want this program to stop.

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He said, well, OK, but what's the rationale? And he said, well, what you are looking at is something that is a demonic presence.

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There's a faction in the government high up in the Pentagon of religious fundamentalists who are concerned that anything paranormal or supernatural is demonic in origin.

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That flying saucers represent demons. That if you study this, that you're inviting the devil and Satan into your world.

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You're telling me to ignore it because it goes against your philosophical belief system. Well, that's the same thing

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I face in Afghanistan and in the Middle East. There's no difference. Only you're wearing a three piece suit and they're carrying a

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Kalashnikov. So I couldn't believe what I was hearing. All right.

01:21

Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, the cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts.

01:26

I am one of the co -hosts here. I'm here with Andrew Supersleuth, the supersleuth of the show.

01:32

You're excited to be here. So excited. And Jeff, it's good to see you here, man. I know, man.

01:37

That's how you get me back on the show. Talk about aliens and UFOs. Yeah, I'm here. Yeah.

01:43

So we are excited because this is a topic we've delved into a couple of times and it seems every couple of months we kind of jump back into it, just depending on what's going on in current events.

01:54

Recently, not too long ago during this whole COVID -19, it was roughly a week ago. Yeah, it was the

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Pentagon. They released or they confirmed footage that was already released about three separate

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UFO encounters. And so a lot of people just had the sort of indifferent. So what sort of attitude?

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Why does it matter? Is this some sort of false flag that's kind of being thrown like a wag the dog bait and switch?

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Why is this relevant? And people kind of gave it with a shrug. But there's many aspects that people need to understand.

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This affects all of us. And it's very. There's a long history to this because it's always interconnected to our lives.

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But also there's a level spiritually that it connects to as well, too. And what you just heard there was a clip from a series unidentified.

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That was a couple of different people. Luis Elizondo talking. And also it was at the other.

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George Knapp. Yeah, George Knapp. He was he was talking about that, too. So there's a lot of different working variables in this.

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But we have someone with us today. We're just going to say real fast you over. It's interesting over the last week.

03:01

Yeah, we can have because you're right. The Pentagon declassified those were already leaked. Those were already out, but they declassified them and officially dropped them.

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And the media just, you know, did it. It's crazy because you think about in the last week we've got worldwide pandemic.

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People are locked down in their homes. We've decimated the global economy and we have the release of murder hornets and the declassification of things that are clearly defying the laws of physics.

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And it's weird because people don't know what to think about. Or it's like, well, the Pentagon just declassified.

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They said these are legit and this thing is defying the laws of physics. And everyone's like, like, oh, is that more important than the murder hornets?

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I don't know. Which one should I focus on right now? It's just the right time to drop it when all this is going on. It's a good time to have a podcast called

03:48

Cultish. We are in no shortage of content to get through. That's right. So we have someone with us today.

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Ray Bosch, you were connected to us by one of our previous guests, Colin Samool, who talked to us about Tom DeLonge and his involvement in To the

04:03

Stars Academy. In fact, that documentary we just listened to that's also on Amazon Prime, you can watch.

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It's really intriguing. It's about $10. You can you can download all the episodes, really kind of talking about their involvement with the government to try and disclose all these different things.

04:17

But it's good to have you on the podcast. How are you? How are you doing? I'm doing well.

04:23

Thank you. Pleasure to be here. Excellent. And so for anyone who doesn't know you, you we kind of gave a brief resume for people to kind of see.

04:31

But for anyone who just jumping onto the podcast, just tell them just a little bit about yourself, where what you where you come from and what makes you somewhat on the expert on the subject of Handa of UFOs, disclosures and all of those different things.

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Oh, man, I'll try to give you the nickel tour here of my life. I was born in Nebraska City, Nebraska, and I've spent all but about eight months of my life here in the state of Nebraska.

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Was an art major in college, worked in the graphic arts field for about 30 years before I retired from that.

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I overlapped considerably there with a period of eight years as the director of an apologetics outreach to new agers and the academic community called

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Reasonable Defense. And then planted a church. I was originally ordained as a

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Baptist pastor, planted a church for the Reformed Episcopal Church.

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So became went from a Baptist pastor to an Anglican priest and pastored that church, build it up for about 10 years.

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Some unfortunate things happened there. I had some health issues and had to step down and ended up spending my last 12 years in ministry as the pastor for adult education at one of the largest

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Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod congregations in the United States, just retired from that.

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I'm just recovering from a bout of lymphoma and just finished six months of chemotherapy.

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So just trying to get my feet back under me and officially retired.

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I'm an actual retiree now who's just got more time to do the things I want to do. And God's laying out in front of me.

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I've been involved in the study of UFOs and paranormal subjects since I was 10 years old.

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We had a sighting, my family and I, on our back porch when I was 10, saw a very bizarre disc -shaped object move overhead and have been fascinated ever since.

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Spoken at a lot of conferences, done a lot of writing and a lot of research.

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And toward the mid -80s, I began to realize that with the rise of New Age, New Age -ism is sort of a shopworn term now.

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At the time, it was more Shirley MacLaine -ism, as she was the big proponent for New Age thought.

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It was really taking off and many people were investing their entire belief system in New Age ideas.

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And I realized no one is really providing a view of these things from a

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Christian worldview. And so that's what prompted me to begin

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Reasonable Defense and had the opportunity to speak at a lot of colleges and universities.

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And again, reach out to a lot of New Agers, a lot of New Age conferences, UFO conferences. Still kind of kept my hand in the research field, but from a different perspective.

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And it's been a fascinating ride. Well, Ray, you went from being a

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Baptist minister to an Anglican to a Lutheran, so you're a bit of an alien yourself.

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I've got a really checkered background. A strange being of sorts of yourself. Well, I just want to ask at the start, because I know this is going to come up, especially with some of the things that are going to come to light here in the discussion.

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In terms of vetting you, Ray, so people can hear about, why should anybody listen to what you have to say?

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How do people know that you are not just some quack in the world of the

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Internet that is just making some pretty audacious claims? In terms of vetting you, what are some of the credentials that would give people a little bit of understanding that you do know what you're talking about?

08:55

I wonder about that myself sometimes. Well, let me see.

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Well, having served a Baptist congregation and an

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Anglican congregation and a Lutheran congregation of about 3 ,800 folks for 12 years, that gives me a little bit of credibility.

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I have a master's in apologetics and systematic theology, and I have a doctoral degree, a doctor of divinity degree, or excuse me, doctor of theology degree in systematic theology.

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So I have the academic background to know what I'm talking about. I've written and published widely for various organizations involved with the study of the unexplained, and so I have a pretty good level of credibility within the research community.

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My work's been cited by a lot of authors who are much more well -known than I am.

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I've done three or four books. If anybody's interested, you can search for my name,

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RayBoshay, at academia .edu, and everything I've done is there available to be downloaded for free.

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And if you're interested, I encourage you to help yourself.

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That's what it's there for. You know, I think my—ultimately, the only authority

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I have to speak is the authority of Scripture. Don't take my word for this.

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Dig where you find these questions.

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Find out exactly as much as you can about them, but always, excuse me, always go back and weigh it against the truth of Scripture.

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One of the early leaders in this field was a man named

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Charles Fort. And he wrote a book initially. His first book was called

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The Book of the Damned, and what he referred to as damned were the damned facts that science wouldn't recognize.

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And he used the perfect example of the French Academy of Sciences in the 18th century denying that there were such things as meteors because, obviously, how can stones fall from the sky?

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Because, look, there are no stones in the sky. And so any time a meteor would be found, they would say, well, that was just a rock.

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It was struck by lightning. That's why it's hot. So science has always had a very blinded view of things, and it's taken things to shake up that scientific paradigm to get it to expand.

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But Charles Fort had a saying. He said, one measures a circle beginning anywhere.

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You can start with frogs. You can start with Napoleon Bonaparte. You can start with the laws of economics.

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One measures a circle beginning anywhere. And that's true. You can't ignore what's going on in the world around you.

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You should look at it and establish everything you can and don't throw it aside just because it doesn't fit with your current paradigm.

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But you can only measure a circle if you have a standard by which you can measure it.

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And that standard has to be Scripture. That's our unchanging truth that we use.

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Scripture is not a science textbook. Scripture is not a book of cosmology as we think of it now.

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Obviously, God's very brilliant, and he started it the way he should have. In the beginning was God. He makes it plain.

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At the beginning, there was nothing but me. There was no time. There was no space. There was just me.

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I created everything from that point forward. That, I think, is what Genesis 1 through 11, essentially, or 1 through 5, anyway, is really trying to get across.

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God is singular, uncaused, and outside of time and space.

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He's the one who created time and space. And so I always challenge people to say,

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I want you to close your eyes, and I want you to imagine nothing. I say, so how did you imagine nothing to be?

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And how about one of you guys? Tell me, how do you imagine nothing? You can't.

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That's right. You can't, because it's no thing. It's nothing. And so, other than God, there was nothing.

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So God exists outside of space and time. He's given us his word. He's given us great, agile minds to, as Kepler said, science is the pursuit of thinking

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God's thoughts after him. He's given us minds and a rational, logical ability to see how he did things.

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Not always why, but how he did things. That's science. We go about the process of science with the natural world.

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And sometimes slightly beyond the laws of physics and those sorts of things, but still applicable to the natural world.

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That's the pursuit of truth in nature. But he's also given us special revelation.

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He's given us his word. And so we delve more into the person and personality of God by studying his word, the scriptures.

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And so we have two sources, two trails that we're following to search for the truth.

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One natural revelation, one special revelation. Truth is truth.

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And when we get to that ultimate truth, which ultimately, from my perspective, is centered in Jesus Christ, both of those lines of inquiry are going to converge at that point.

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Because it's true. So we have two avenues to approach ultimate truth.

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They don't diverge from one another. Science is coming closer and closer,

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I would say almost weakly, to the point of having to recognize that there's something that is beyond the materialist, naturalist, mechanist view of this world.

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What is quantum physics? But an attempt to turn the supernatural into something measurable.

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We're after the same thing. We're after the same thing. So there's, you know, the clip you played of Luis Elizondo and the reaction he got from the folks at the

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Pentagon. If I happened to be that person, that general, whoever he was, his pastor,

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I'd have been less than pleased with that kind of attitude.

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What do we have to fear? What do we have to fear?

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As believers, we're, as Paul said, we're more than conquerors.

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We stand united with God by His grace through faith.

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And so what do we have to fear? Everything we can learn about this world and the world of the supernatural, the truth of that only glorifies

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God even more. So it's nothing to shy away from. Could it be evil?

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It may be. Then you treat it as something evil. But don't just make the proclamation that something is evil and without exploring it.

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The church made that mistake when they told Galileo that, no, we won't look through your telescope.

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We won't look through your telescope. And you're a heretic. And we're going to we're going to excommunicate you from the church unless you recant of all the truth you've written.

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Right. It's that's that's that's neither

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Christian nor scientific nor logical. It doesn't make sense.

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So I would if if I happened to be that Luis Elizondo's commanding officer's pastor,

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I'd have had a serious talk with him about that. We as believers, we have nothing to fear.

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We have nothing to fear. So does that even begin to answer? I probably went down 15 different rabbit trails there.

18:36

No, this is good. I think this is this is good. Jeff, you're going to jump in here in just a second. But when it comes to understanding the

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UFO phenomena, it's you're always going to have a lens in how you view the world. And the question is, if someone deals with naturalistic materialism and their only their only foundation are is science or or just you talk about the very aspect of presupposing that Christ is the one who create all things.

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You have the idea of induction that the future will be like the past. Well, what does it really matter if you have these different objects that are going around and moving on, moving around in odd ways that are just breaking the laws of physics?

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And so people are assuming there's all these set laws in motion. These things are violating it and they don't understand it.

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And therefore, they don't feel we understand. I mean, there's an aspect where we want to have fierce Christians. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

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But when it comes to understanding things like the occult or and people wonder, why are we laying this theological foundation?

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If you read Walter Martin's book, Kingdom of the Occult, he never started with some crazy story of some

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Ouija board flying off the table. He spent several pages laying a foundation from Scripture, showing that the

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Bible is a dimensional book, that there's a physical realm and there's a spiritual realm.

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And there's dimensions talked about in the Bible. It gives a framework in which to understand that there is a way things are.

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There's a creator, but there's also there's dimensions and there's spiritual entities that are not good and things you can tap into when you cross over.

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Essentially, you could open up things. And what crosses through is incredibly spiritually dangerous.

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So that's one of the things, too, when it comes to the UFO phenomena, is that it always comes down to I've always seen this fascination.

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Maybe you can jump into this, too, unless you want to jump into Jeff. Is that I've always been fascinated.

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The fact that whenever this whole discussion comes up, people ask, why does it matter? Well, it always seems to be, no matter what,

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UFOlogy or the interest in UFOs always leads to classic occultism, paganism, levels of DMT, getting to an altered state of consciousness in order to eventually make contact with these aliens.

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So you end up seeing that. Is there something you want to jump into as well? Well, I'll just maybe that can fill us in and get us to the next point to launch from.

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Yes. Where we can get into the meat of the discussion. I don't want to lose any of our listeners here because we're talking about UFOs and aliens are like, get to the point.

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Right. Talk about the aliens and the stuff that's flying in the sky. So I think it's important because, you know, last week the information came out about the

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Pentagon declassifying, you know, these UFO or UAF sightings or UAP sightings.

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And one of the people that came on as an expert onto Fox was Dr. Steven Greer. Yeah. And he announced on Fox, I watched it, he announced that he has this documentary film.

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So a good way to get a plug in for his film because I actually ended up buying it. So great marketing there. We watched it too.

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Yeah, exactly. So but I watched the film. The film was Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind. Most people are like, what is that?

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Because I've seen Steven Spielberg's film, Third Kind. Pretty good. A little old, but it was a great film.

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Third Kind. Then you have Fourth Kind. Fourth Kind is where you're abducted onto a spacecraft. That's the definition.

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Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind. Steven Greer basically spends an hour of this film. It's about two hours long.

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An hour of the film, it goes into sort of it feels very scientific, very observational. You can you can almost like mark and stamp all the points where it's like, and this means we should question our theological institutions.

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And this means we need to rethink our, you know, like you just said, it's sort of like throwing it out there. Like just, oh, by the way, we should re -question all those things about Jesus.

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You know, all that is sort of in there. But then the second half of the film is important.

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I say this a lot. There are no brute facts. There's no brute facts. Everything comes with a worldview, with presuppositions, with an interpretation.

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And so so the interesting thing is you talk about an unidentified aerial phenomenon.

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Steven Greer says, yeah, these things are real. They're out there. So what do we need to do? Fifth, we need to have a close encounter of the fifth kind where we initiate contact.

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How? Well, it's worldview driven. It's not through radio waves or sort of like, you know,

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Morse code or signals with lights. It's non locality. And you go, oh, wait, that's a whole framework all on its own.

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You've got Larry Dossie teaching that third era medicine, all of that stuff like this is it's a worldview.

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We can't talk about quantum level thinking. These sorts of things where we can now speak to other bodies and minds because the universe is all one.

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We're part of the same universe. We can communicate from from mind to mind or from Steven Greer's perspective.

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I can locate an entity that's that's in another star system through my mind.

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And I can I can direct them to my location and have direct communication and contact. You see, it's not a brute fact.

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Oh, there's there's a UF. There's a UFO or UAP. Sorry. Keep saying that wrong. A UFO. And therefore, you know, let me examine what's in front of me.

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No, his worldview goes. And therefore, transcendental meditation. Yeah. And therefore, quiet my soul and listen to Krishna.

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And therefore, try to call this entity into relationship. The word relationship is used in there.

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What was fascinating to me, brother, and I'll let you talk to this, is that scripture. You mentioned scripture as the as the as the as the reference point is the principium.

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People might ask the question, though, brother, they might say, how how in the world are you going to use scripture for a question about UFOs and how this whole field of ufology is is working and sort of chugging along?

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And my answer is, well, it's actually quite nicely put there. And one of the first few books of the Bible, Deuteronomy, Chapter 18,

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God warned his people against necromancy, communication with the dead, these sorts of things.

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This this is this is part and parcel of paganism, trying to communicate with the other side and to break that barrier between the physical and the spiritual or the material and the immaterial, the transcendence.

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And the reality is in front of me. And so what's amazing is that scripture was always warning about trying to have this kind of contact.

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Stephen Greer comes in and says, hey, here's a phenomenon. Here's some observable evidence. And so what I've done now is

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I've turned to having seances in the wilderness and in the desert where we actually start meditating and calling these entities to have a relationship with us and talking to us.

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Now, I find that fascinating because I feel like they laid their cards completely on the table. Oh, yeah.

25:19

Thank you. Thank you for telling me. They're even tabbing into the they're talking about different sources from the Vedas. Yeah. Even make sense of this.

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So I'll leave it there. I just think it's important to say that there's no brute facts as a worldview that drives this for most people that, you know, this.

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So this is how you make contact fifth encounter or the fifth kind. I think it's important to talk about that.

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So, brother, I'll just lay that on the table. I think people need to hear that, that no brute facts. There's this is worldview driven.

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There are presuppositions underneath this. You, you mentioned going to scripture as the reference point. I think that's important because I think it's powerful to consider that a lot of the main field admit to publicly the immaterial communication, spiritual aspect of all of this.

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So there you go. No, that's you. You've just made you've just made a series of excellent points.

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If you're. I would I would challenge people who are listening.

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Yeah, it's a little tough now because all of the major UFO conferences and those sorts of gatherings have been canceled for the foreseeable future.

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But the buzzword in the community of those who are interested in particularly in UFOs, but the paranormal in general, is now consciousness.

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We're studying consciousness, and that flows into the whole artificial intelligence field and all of that sort of thing, which is exactly what you said.

26:55

It's an attempt to contact an immaterial, transcendent realm.

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Yes. That's exactly what God warned us against. He said, look, anything you need to know,

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I've told you here. Anything you need to know that I didn't tell you about it for a specific reason. I've given you this thing called prayer.

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Let's have a conversation. And I'll I'll be happy to reveal to you what you need to know about this.

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He doesn't promise to tell us everything, but he promises to tell us enough. But that doesn't satisfy people.

27:32

Stephen Greer is an excellent example of someone who is profoundly deceived.

27:40

Whitley Streber is another example of someone who is profoundly deceived.

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Whitley Streber has even on his radio show referred to the visitors as that's his term for them.

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Admitted in almost my impression was a fit of pique that they're demons.

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Yes, I'm dealing with demons. These be it. These things are demons. And I am just astounded at that, that he would admit that.

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So the reason this is important. Could could these could some of these things be extraterrestrials from another planet, another solar system, another galaxy?

28:27

Absolutely. That possibility is there. But when we begin to examine the contact that humans have with these creatures, these entities.

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That's when we begin to discover who they really are. We can't we can't do it scientifically.

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We can't measure it. We have to listen to the information that they provide about themselves.

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And everything that they provide about themselves stands in almost. Almost 100 percent of the time in direct opposition to clear principles given in Scripture for dealing with the supernatural realm and life in general.

29:14

It's a it's a fascinating it's a fascinating study. But you're right. We can't we can't quantify who or where these things are from.

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There are no hard facts. The hardest facts we have are the contents given to the percipients during encounters.

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And that's where that's where they they tip their hand. That's where we really begin to see if we're using

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Scripture as a guide. You begin to see where these entities come from philosophically.

29:50

Yes. And so a question I have and this is this is really good because now we're getting to the encounters.

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And this is what has been a huge topic in this whole UFO discussion. So one of the things that caught my attention when

30:02

Colin initially connected us and kind of gave you gave me your own mini bio is that you obviously talked about your credentials as far as ministry goes and having a foundation from Scripture but also interpreting

30:15

UFOs in that light. You were contacted by some government agencies who had they reached out to you because they had concerns about things that they were involved in concerning UFO encounters and specifically areas of the paranormal.

30:33

Can you just kind of tell everyone about that? Yeah, I was I was contacted by two gentlemen in the early 90s.

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I will as a matter of fact, let me preface this I will post my my notes and my files at academia .edu

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so people have the entire the entire account there if they want to pursue that you can you'll be able to download that for free.

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I was I was contacted by two gentlemen who said they wanted to to meet with me. They identified themselves as being from the

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Department of Defense. I later determined that what one's primary agency was the

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National Security Agency and the other was the Defense Intelligence Agency.

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But the project they were working on was under the broader umbrella of the Department of Defense.

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They were both believers and they were concerned at the type of project they were working on.

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They had been tasked, along with other members in this project, to attempt to establish communication with what they termed non -human entities,

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NHEs, that were intricately, intimately involved with and behind the

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UFO phenomenon. And the point of the Department of Defense interest in this, as you might imagine, was is there a way we can weaponize this?

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Can we can we learn or tap into this seemingly endless and very potent source of power that these entities use and use it for defensive or, in the worst case scenario, offensive purposes?

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Part of what they did as as this program had gone on, they described things that were very much in tune with ritual black magic of the

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Aleister Crowley ilk of black magic to try to contact these entities.

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Crowley, interestingly enough, had an encounter with a with a being that he referred to as Lamb L .A

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.M. And Crowley grew drew a picture of that individual, which looks very much like the typical gray alien encountered by people today.

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But there were satanic rituals.

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There were all sorts of strange things being done to try to tap into this power and appease and cajole these non -human entities into assisting them.

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What they did discover was that nothing positive came out of this.

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There were always negative, at the very least, side effects to everything that they had done.

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They were particularly concerned because they were tasked with trying to harness this for what euphemistically their program managers called negative healing.

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Negative healing was the attempt to be able to take someone's life at a distance without without physical intervention.

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In the course of our conversations, I was shown sets of photographs of individuals who had allegedly been killed in this manner.

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One had the interior portion, the front portion of their skull smashed in.

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One had allegedly died of suffocation and one had allegedly died of a heart attack that had been induced psychotronically without any with no drugs, no physical manipulation at all.

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Simply this sort of mental force. Each of these individuals were in what looked something similar to a dentist's chair in a laboratory setting surrounded by instruments.

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I have no idea if this was legitimate, if this was staged.

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I only have the information I received from these gentlemen to go on. But that was a point that had stressed them and pushed their faith to a limit.

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And they said, this seems very, very evil. They searched me out because they knew about my research background, but they also knew of my work in the ministry.

36:04

And that I was equipped to be able to answer some of their questions, give them some guidance on this and shed a little more light on it.

36:18

Well, let's just leave it there. If you have any questions, I'll let you expand. I know you guys are doing two episodes on this.

36:25

I want to get to your questions. Well, I'm just going to say, Ray, I'd like to have a personal phone call with you at some point and talk to you more.

36:33

But I have to actually do pastoral stuff right now. OK, I'm going to bounce. But you guys keep going. I don't want to disrupt. This is this is really good stuff.

36:39

And I can't wait to listen and for everyone here. Oh, this is really good. I do. I do have a question. So in regards to these two men that that meet up with you, right.

36:48

They'd start talking to you about these occultic practices that are taking place. If I'm if I'm correct, from what you're saying inside the government, right.

36:55

The government has some type of hand in this. OK, so why go to these extreme measures?

37:01

Our government to go to occultic things by nature to have this power. What's going on with their reasoning?

37:08

Why is our government wanting this? Is there a place or a government that already has this type of psychokinetic power like or what?

37:18

What's the reasoning behind that, really? Excellent question. The the I believe the impetus for this began in the late 40s when word began to leak out of the

37:29

Soviet Union that they were working on just this kind of thing. It was pretty spotty at the beginning because Joseph Stalin was a strict materialist.

37:40

And he did not he did not believe that there was anything to. To any sort of psychic powers, telepathy, psychokinesis, that sort of thing.

37:54

So he kept a pretty tight lid on it. But once Stalin had passed away and the regime changed, they began to delve more deeply into that.

38:06

As word of that leaked out of the Soviet Union, it became there became sort of a psychic arms race, if you want to call it that.

38:15

And so the United States didn't want to be left behind. And so they decided they would start to do this, too.

38:21

And that that part part of that is part of the infamous and horrendous work that was done by the

38:29

CIA and a project over many years called MK Ultra. So I was thinking, yeah, and there were other sub projects under that grill flame and Stargate and several others.

38:42

There was the infamous remote viewing project that was that was worked on training soldiers to and civilians as well to view enemy targets at a distance with simply just a set of coordinates and then giving them descriptions of what they found.

39:03

Yes, there were there were successes in that to the point of actually having some of these individuals able to read documents in locked file cabinets miles and miles away.

39:18

So it was it was something that the government was pursuing. But somewhere along the line, they the line was crossed.

39:29

Let's put it that way. And they began to see this as something to to definitely weaponize to use as.

39:40

Well, I guess the the most blunt way to put it is a tool for assassination.

39:47

How do we remove someone that we don't we don't want there anymore without being able to leave a fingerprint?

39:55

Right. And so I believe that's that's what started that. And the

40:01

UFO question was there as well. And I don't know.

40:06

I don't know exactly how the two melded at the beginning. I was never told that.

40:12

But at some point in time, they determined that the entities that they were talking with were that were the same entities behind many of the

40:23

UFO sightings and the encounters with the occupants. And they referred to them as as any cheese, non -human entities.

40:31

And then it took the very, the very nasty turn in terms of how do we how do we harness these powers in order to use them to kill?

40:45

Right. In fact, this is I remember this. This is this sounds like the movie.

40:52

This is somewhat this was somewhat portrayed in the movie. The men who stare at goats with George Clooney.

40:58

Yeah. Because you see a little bit of the idea where it's like, oh, I can stare. I can stare tele telekinetically at this goat and kill them, make them fall over.

41:06

And it was hard. Yes. And it was done in a very in a very kind of tongue in cheek, you know, comedic way.

41:13

But when you start looking at these things and this is why, again, we're kind of focusing here on the nature of the world, the occult and UFO phenomena.

41:23

And it comes down to when you're trying to harness something that ultimately you don't have control over.

41:30

And especially not. But then, you knowing what you know, it's like we have you have a basis to interpret this data.

41:38

And even like the things that you're talking about, because there are there are these things you shouldn't tap into.

41:44

And because immediately when you're talking about the sources of these things, you're talking about people like Alistair Crowley and black magic.

41:51

And in fact, that's that's one thing that's intriguing. So one of the things I read in prep for this episode, and we have a couple of things in prep.

41:59

Plus, Andrew and I are still working working full time in spite of doing cultish here, is that you had recommended a book called

42:05

Final Events. And this is definitely very intriguing. We might put some links and recommendations if you want to understand and go deeper.

42:11

But you had talked it talked a little bit about Alistair Crowley. But someone was involved that directly impacted the world of the

42:18

UFOs when it comes to the UFOs in the world. The occult is Jack Parsons.

42:24

That name was mentioned a bit. Can you can you just real quickly, Ray, introduce who he was and why is he relevant to the whole subject of the government

42:34

UFOs, aliens, the world, the occult? How does that all fit together from everything that you've you've understood and studied?

42:41

John Whiteside Parsons is his given name. And he went by Jack and Jack Parsons was one of the original founders of the

42:49

Jet Propulsion Laboratory. He was a primarily self -taught chemist who was very interested in rocket fuels.

43:03

And he was one of the really one of the linchpins in the development of the

43:10

American space program early on. But he also had a very strange dark side.

43:18

He was he was a disciple of Alistair Crowley. He and a science fiction writer at the time,

43:26

L. Ron Hubbard, who later went on to develop Scientology, spent many weeks with a female companion.

43:38

Engaged in something they called the Babylon working. In which they attempted to produce a child that would be essentially the great beast.

43:56

A bizarre, bizarre episode. But Jack Parsons, there's an actually

44:05

NASA named a crater on the moon after Jack Parsons. So not a not an insignificant figure scientifically.

44:14

He was killed, I believe, in 1953 during an accident in his basement when he blew he blew himself up as he was working on an experiment on rocket fuel.

44:26

But a fascinating man. But definitely links to he's a perfect link between the government and Alistair Crowley.

44:39

Black magic. Hard science. An incredible kind of crossover.

44:46

There are there are two excellent books that I might recommend if someone's interested in learning more about Jack Parsons.

44:53

One is called Strange Angel and the other is called Sex and Rockets. Sex and Rockets comes closer to a descriptive descriptive way of looking at Jack Parsons life.

45:13

Fascinating man, but again, very deceived and ultimately very wicked in what what he was involved in.

45:22

Yeah. And so what's interesting, too, is that in this book, it kind of talks about it starts introducing people like Jack Parsons and this involvement in black magic and the occult.

45:33

And this isn't again, this won't be representative of every single person to work in the space program. But there are a lot of people of high influence that were involved in these particular things.

45:42

Anything that you mentioned when you were contracted with these people with the Department of Defense. But what that was really intriguing to me is that it seemed that the real

45:52

UFO sightings and phenomena. How old are you? What year is it? You said you were 10 years old and you saw that you saw your first sighting.

46:00

Yeah, that was 1965. OK. Yeah. And so in the book, it talks about is really around the 1950s to the 1970s.

46:07

That that kind of be this that seemed to kind of be the real time in which these sightings really happened.

46:12

I think there might have been that one time it was in the maybe it was in the late 40s. And when the seven years in the 47 with that one sighting showed up in Los Angeles, where is that famous photo of all the white shooting up?

46:24

You know, I'm talking about. That's not yet. Nineteen forty two. Yes. So it's referred to as the

46:29

Los Angeles Great Los Angeles Air Raid. Yes. They thought it was a Japanese attack. Yeah.

46:34

And but it seems to be that progressively these sightings were happening or happening around this time when you saw people like Alistair Crowley and Jack Parsons.

46:45

And these sightings continue to show up. Was there anything really in relation to why you think that those it started like around that time and why over several decades it seemed to kind of escalate going to some slight ones in the 40s within the 50s, 60s and 70s?

47:01

Why do you think that was? There are some people who believe that it could very well have been the

47:09

Babylon working that I mentioned that Hubbard and Parsons were involved with, that that opened a portal, a gateway of some sort between the physical world and the spiritual world.

47:25

You know, there it's it's worthy of thought. But again, if I if I'm going back to Scripture to look at to make my assessment of the various aspects of this.

47:43

Do I mean, Satan is we're told he's the prince of the power of the air.

47:49

He's the prince of this world. If he wants to if he wants to do something, does he need a human to call him forth to open a doorway for him to do it right now?

48:03

I mean, there's some theological issues with that. But that said, that's one of the reasons that some people feel that the the incidence of these things really began to ramp up from the late 40s.

48:21

Kenneth Arnold, citing on June 24th of 1947, where he term coined the term flying saucer.

48:29

And then from then it really began to expand and probably came to its greatest.

48:37

The greatest frequency in the late 60s through the mid 70s, but a 10 year period there.

48:47

Now, that's really good. And then what else? We talked a little bit about this before the episode is you would have interactions with a lady by the name of it was

48:58

Linda. How Linda, how? And that also was part of your involvement. Can you just tell everyone real quickly about your relationship with her and how that relates to all this and your involvement in all this through the years?

49:11

Yeah, Linda, how is a well -respected investigative journalist? And she and I have been friends since about 40 years now.

49:22

Doesn't seem possible. But she has a Web site called Earth Files dot com.

49:28

And she does a lot of a lot of stories on the environment, but also on paranormal events ranging from crop circles to animal mutilations, things like that.

49:41

The two gentlemen that I was introduced to or that introduced themselves to me,

49:50

I had mentioned something about some work that Linda had done.

49:56

They were interested in seeing one of her books. And so I contacted her to see if before I shared a book with them that she was all right with that.

50:08

She was. And that opened up the door to some correspondence between her and them.

50:15

She had some very specific questions and I was simply to go between and provided that.

50:21

But she has published those those questions and those answers. And the file that I put up on academia .edu

50:29

will contain those questions and her responses as well. But Linda was very interested in some of the implications of ancient

50:47

Sumerian and Babylonian religions and their influence and their possible links to extraterrestrials.

50:58

It was interesting because the two gentlemen referred her to books that dealt with.

51:09

The. Demonology of Babylonian Sumeria and and pointed her in that direction, which then opened up a lot of questions she had for me regarding that.

51:23

But that gave me a good indication of where they were coming from, that they recognized that these are these are our supernatural divine beings, small d, but supernatural beings that were the gods of Babylonian Sumeria.

51:44

So does that does that answer your question? Yeah, no, it's no, it definitely does. And I think that's another connection that I read in the book is that, again, when you look, you know, it's

51:55

I think it's important to see that we're talking about different things about M .K.

52:00

Ultra and and things about involvement with different government agencies and weaponizing the paranormal.

52:08

In fact, one of your chapters, it was very interesting. It was because maybe you can elaborate on this more.

52:13

It was about they mentioned constantly about this group called the Collins elite. And in Chapter eight, talking about UFOs, Crowley and Weegee, it says this is a section

52:24

I highlighted and it talks about what they were doing here, particularly in regards to the government.

52:30

Says, according to Richard Duke, whose works in the Collins elite had on occasion brought him into a direct contact with the army's psychological warfare to the warfare division.

52:40

The presumed lack of interest in the work and part of the military was a site was a slight ruse.

52:47

In reality, the Collins elite, as well as elements within the army and the CIA, were sympathetic to the views of the group, which would be would soon become active members.

52:55

And they had a deep interest in the subject and were trying to determine the use of ESP and even

53:00

Ouija boards could be helped to resolve the understanding of the flying saucer presence. As Duke claims, all all are made and more significant by the fact that in February 1954, the

53:11

CIA published a 27 page document titled a history of Ouija and intelligent intelligence applications that demonstrate that the agency was trying to determine if Ouija boards could be used as a useful tool in the hall of the mirror's worlds of espionage.

53:29

So wild. Just I'm throwing that out because anyone who hears that is like that just sounds so crazy and off the wall.

53:36

Now, the question is, let's look at that, though, through a Christian worldview. We started the very beginning of the podcast and some of us maybe were wondering, what is the point?

53:45

But the reality is that we we can make sense of something like that through scripture, because the very idea that Ouija boards, they have a level of power enough that the government was it was involved in a way to weaponize them.

54:02

We can make sense because God has already talked about it, though. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, there's.

54:11

Here's maybe this will provide a little framework. Sure. You know, people

54:16

I've heard I've heard too many Christians, pastors particularly, over the years say, and I'll frame this as carefully as I can, because I don't

54:27

I certainly don't want to mislead anyone who will say. There are no such thing as ghosts.

54:35

Ghosts are simply satanic counterfeits of human spirits. And again,

54:41

I have to go back to scripture. And I say, OK, Saul went to the witch of Endor, who called up the ghost.

54:55

Of Samuel, when Jesus was approaching the disciples across the sea, what's the first thing when he's walking on the water, what did they say?

55:06

I thought he was a ghost. It's a ghost. When he came through the locked door in the upper room after the resurrection, what did they say?

55:15

It's a ghost. And he said, hey, hey, touch me. Does a ghost have flesh and blood?

55:21

Does he have flesh and bones? Touch me. So I say, no, ghosts are not a satanic deception.

55:29

How many how many counterfeiters do you know that have decided I'm going to print a bunch of thirty dollar bills?

55:37

Mm hmm. Nope. There is no such thing. So if there are no such thing as ghosts, why would

55:44

Satan counterfeit them? So there is a reality to that. Now, God says,

55:51

I don't want you to try to talk with the dead. If you want spiritual information, come to me.

55:57

So we have a clear a clear prohibition against that. But it doesn't mean that they're not real.

56:03

So we're dealing with a real spiritual world here. And we have areas of that that God has has put a boundary around and said, don't cross into that.

56:15

Don't go there. That's not good. Don't go there. Don't try and run your life by an astrological chart.

56:24

Stay away from astrology. Don't don't try to find your answers by witchcraft.

56:30

The Greek term for which is pharmacopeia drugs.

56:38

And don't delve into divination. Don't go to the dead seeking answers from them.

56:45

Mm hmm. So we know that that realm is real. We know that God has put proscriptions there to say, don't do this.

56:56

This is not good. This is not positive. We have we have a reality there that.

57:04

Is important to recognize that a lot of people don't and a lot of Christians don't realize the.

57:14

The reality of this supernatural world. It's, you know, it's something that.

57:22

Is sort of like, well, yeah, you know, there's the devil. He's got those red long johns and the pointy tail and the pitchfork.

57:31

Or, you know, we've got the little demon that sits on my shoulder and the angel that sits on the other one. You know, that's kind of it's about it.

57:37

Mm hmm. But no, I mean, what does what does Paul tell us in Corinthians, second Corinthians?

57:44

Satan himself can appear as an angel of light. Second Corinthians chapter 11. Right. Yes. So don't don't be surprised.

57:52

Weigh everything, because something that can seem very nice and uplifting and positive.

57:58

Can be deceptive. So we have to we have to weigh all this. The reality is there is a spiritual realm and it's dangerous to play around with as believers.

58:16

We have we the only thing Satan ever has to accuse anyone of is their sin.

58:23

As believers, we're forgiven. So when Satan comes and tries to challenge us and accuse us and attack us.

58:30

And, you know, he'll say, I remember when you were 20. Remember when you did that? Yeah. How can you expect

58:35

God to love you after you? Oh, come on. You're horrible. You say, hey, I'm forgiven.

58:41

It's forgiven. Hey, that piece of paper in your hand there, Satan, that list of my sins forgiven. Forget about it. It's blank.

58:46

There's nothing there. So in the name of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, take off.

58:52

Leave me alone. Get out of here. We have that ability. We have that blessing to be able to do that.

58:59

It doesn't mean we take it lightly. But it means that we were ultimately.

59:09

Free from having to be in fear of that. But we also have the responsibility to constantly, constantly be on the guard to say, all right, what what's going on here?

59:18

Is this is this positive? Is this something that recognizes who God is and glorifies him because of that?

59:24

Or is this something that eats away at his majesty and at his glory and tries to denigrate

59:30

God? No, I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, and you're making really good points here.

59:36

In fact, just jumping to the importance of understanding this through a Christian worldview. A lot of times people like George Knapp or even

59:42

Jeremy Corbell, who did this. Well, you might talk about Bob Razar a little bit in the next episode.

59:47

But what they they've always kind of challenged the notion that this is going to these disclosures are going to change the way we have to acknowledge everything about reality in the cosmos.

59:59

And who we are is as people. Right. But in a sense, like, no, that only this all this disclosure and all this information that even that you're talking about,

01:00:09

Ray, it only solidifies the Christian worldview. I mean, God spoke about this stuff thousands of years ago in Deuteronomy.

01:00:18

He says, don't do these things. This is an abomination to me. You will get yourself in trouble if you go here. And so one thing

01:00:24

I'll just say, I'll let you jump in here, Andrew, and you can also to raise. We wrap up here. Is that this.

01:00:29

Here's an example. OK. God spoke about this stuff thousands of years ago. As I said, here's from Chapter 13 of this of your book is talking about in the late 1960s, the

01:00:39

CIA experimented with mediums. And in an attempt to contact and possibly debrief CIA agents.

01:00:46

So you have like talking about that. And so people then they're also trying to utilize clairvoyance. And this all is connected to UFO phenomena.

01:00:54

As we're saying at the very beginning, UFO and the world, the occult and the things that God says don't touch. And they're always interconnected.

01:01:01

In fact, they talk. Maybe you could talk with us maybe in the next episode. But there is something. There's a special operation the

01:01:06

CIA did called Operation Often. And they had it says during the CIA operation that had to do with weaponizing the occult.

01:01:14

They had on their payroll. They had fortune tellers, palmists, clairvoyants, demonologists and mediums that and they were working directly with art with agency personnel.

01:01:24

So and so they were working directly with them. So you always see this intrigue with UFO contact jumping into all of these things.

01:01:34

And then all of a sudden they're surprised when these things sort of happen. But God already spoke about that.

01:01:39

One last thing, Andrew, and let's jump in as we wrap up here. Yes. So I just want to kind of get a like a holistic approach to everything we've been talking about.

01:01:45

So we first start off with UFOs or UAPs, unidentified aerial phenomena.

01:01:51

Right. So we see these objects in the sky and there's footage of it looks like a physical thing that's made out of some metallic thing of nature.

01:01:59

Who knows what it is. Right. So we first see this in the sky. How do we get from there. Right. To the occult.

01:02:04

And so what what Ray is saying is that when we actually have people who have contact or have tried to obtain contact with these entities, the evidence that we have, which overwhelms our physical evidence in video footage, is that these things are spiritual in nature.

01:02:20

Right. So they've been trying to, you know, contact them through occultic means. So that's why we make that leap from these physical

01:02:28

UFOs in the air to now the occultic. Because then when when contact begins with people like Steve Greer and other other people who try to make contact with these beings and maybe even our government as well, it always becomes spiritual in nature.

01:02:43

Right. How do you transverse across the universe from point A to point

01:02:48

B in a split second? Let's say if there's something from another galaxy or something, something or other.

01:02:55

Right. Well, how is that physically possible? Well, we're dealing with something that's interdimensional here.

01:03:02

We live as humans with a physical body, but with a spirit, we have a soul as well.

01:03:07

So we we live in a physical world that's interwoven with a spiritual realm as well.

01:03:14

So we have these these things that are branching off these weird phenomenon that's occurring. But God, like you said, warns us in his word, right, not to try to make contact.

01:03:25

But we as people always have this urge. We're not satisfied with what God says.

01:03:31

We want more. We want to tap into the secret power. We want to hold that over the heads of other people.

01:03:37

So we transverse the law of God to our own detriment. Like that, that's what I'm hearing right now, just to sum up kind of everything that we've been talking about, talking about just a branch from a physical object of a

01:03:49

UFO in the sky to getting it to a spiritual concept. Does that make sense? It makes perfect sense.

01:03:55

I think, you know, one thing that I think we might want to explain. What? Why does why does a spiritual entity bother with a physical craft?

01:04:10

Well, you know, anytime we see instances in scripture of angels appearing to humans.

01:04:19

What do they look like? You know, they're not they're not these strange beings with wings on their back.

01:04:25

They look like men. They look like men. They're able to take on a physical form in the same way.

01:04:33

Demonic forces can do that as well. They can take on any kind of guys that they choose.

01:04:40

And I believe that they can manipulate physical matter to create things like the appearance of a flying saucer, a craft of some kind, a flying tic tac, a flying tic tac.

01:04:53

Absolutely. Is that the case for every UFO that's seen? I don't think so.

01:05:00

The only ones that I can speak to in terms of are they demonic are those where I have the contact between.

01:05:10

The human. And the entities that seem to occupy that that all

01:05:16

I have is that content. And in those without exception, I find things that are definitely anti scriptural and go against what

01:05:30

God has said. That's this is really good. And I think there's a lot more we're going to jump into,

01:05:35

I think, in the next episode. We're also going to talk about some current events, including why the

01:05:41

Pentagon released those videos. I will talk about that. Also, we'll kind of go into other recent events, too, and developments, maybe a couple more things from your book.

01:05:49

So, Ray, thank you so much for coming on. And we appreciate you coming on this first episode.

01:05:55

Definitely a good foundation. Interesting discussion. Always fascinating. There's so many working components. And we like to jump into this every couple months.

01:06:02

And Lord willing, when we do this full time, we're going to have a lot more content in store for you.

01:06:07

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01:06:13

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